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JON9000
04-19-2003, 02:09 PM
Are droids slaves? They are certainly property in most cases, and if you own a human, that is a slave. So I guess the question becomes how much a difference there is between Droids and Humans. C3po seems pretty life like to me, but I suppose as a protocol droid he should. I suppose this question was sort of central to 2001, Bladerunner, and countless other movies- do androids dream of electric sheep?

I think droids can think creatively, but Lama Su says that the ability to think creatively is what separates droids from clones, so maybe they cannot.

But is seems that certain droids can think creatively or at least have a great deal of ability to act on their own and even act deceitful- a decidedly human characteristic- remember when artoo fooled Luke into removing his restraining bolt.

And what about IG-88 and 4-LOM- they don't seem to be anybody's pet. ANd I have a feeling they might shoot you if you tried to erase their memories.

Oh well, just a thought.:crazed:

2-1B
04-19-2003, 08:31 PM
C-3PO is more annoying than any human or Gungan could ever aspire to be. :crazed:

Droids are tools, nothing more.
If Artoo can be deceitful, it's because he's programmed to be able to . . . just like how Threepio's wiring allows him to "forget" things.

As far as the movies go, I think these things are added to give the droid characters some humanity. JediTricks has referred to the "3rd class status" of droids and I totally agree - but I see it more as metaphor for our own society. I don't literally look at the droids and see them as equals to humans (within the context of the films) which would then allow them to somehow be subjugated as slaves. :)

JON9000
04-19-2003, 09:56 PM
Jedi Tricks has always thought of everything before me. Drats!

TheDarthVader
04-20-2003, 01:24 PM
C-3PO life-like? Maybe a little. Lets see...chewbacca welding him back together, R2D2 "welding" him back together, switching heads with a battle droid, talking about "short circuiting", being "shut down" with the flick of a switch (ESB), plugging in to the Falcon to "talk" to her, being fixed with a "call" button, being found in a "junk pile", given an oil bath (ANH), and speaking over 6 million forms of communication. With these, it would definately seem like he's more of a robot. ;)

Fulit
04-21-2003, 07:56 AM
I could see it now. The Galactical Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence Beings. And years from now, everyone will say the Galactic Civil War was over slavery.

scruffziller
04-21-2003, 01:58 PM
Watch the Star Trek NG ep THE MEASURE OF A MAN

JON9000
04-21-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by scruffziller
Watch the Star Trek NG ep THE MEASURE OF A MAN

Is that the one where they decide whether Data is property or not, or has rights? I thought that episode was called the "strange case of Mr. Data."

Actually, it served as the impetus to start this thread. It really delved into the issue of what property is and what sorts of things we can give rights to. I suppose the fundamental conclusion was you don't have rights unless you can assert them. Rocks don't have rights, but maybe IG-88 does. That's what I was alluding to with my comment about his blasting folks away. :evil:

stillakid
04-21-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
C-3PO life-like? Maybe a little. Lets see...chewbacca welding him back together, R2D2 "welding" him back together, switching heads with a battle droid, talking about "short circuiting", being "shut down" with the flick of a switch (ESB), plugging in to the Falcon to "talk" to her, being fixed with a "call" button, being found in a "junk pile", given an oil bath (ANH), and speaking over 6 million forms of communication. With these, it would definately seem like he's more of a robot. ;)

I think the reference has more to do with his aside comments like "Typical," after being left in the crumbling hallway on Hoth. Or his whining on the Death Star when he thinks that Luke and Co. are smooshed. It's those moments of "personality" that even R2 manages to exhibit that give these guys a sense of "humanity" moreso than, say, anything we saw out of FX-7.

stillakid
04-21-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by JON9000
Actually, it served as the impetus to start this thread. It really delved into the issue of what property is and what sorts of things we can give rights to. I suppose the fundamental conclusion was you don't have rights unless you can assert them. Rocks don't have rights, but maybe IG-88 does. That's what I was alluding to with my comment about his blasting folks away. :evil:

So it seems to boil down to whether or not you can fight back. A rock has a pretty strong (and inherent to it's nature) defense mechanism against being manipulated, but there's no telling whether or not it even wants to fight back. I think that A.I. touched on that in the "arena" sequence. All the normal androids just stood there and took it, while the boy cried out. It was that awareness of "self" that seemed to separate those beings. I suppose this is why we probably feel comfortable turning cows into hamburgers. Though we can't know for sure, we at least guess that a cow doesn't really "know" what he is much less what his alternatives for life are.

So a droid in Star Wars-land may or may not be "programmed" with personality traits in mind. Are C3PO, R2, IG-88 and others equipped with Terminator-like "learning computers"? Can and do they develop individual personalities over time, enough so so that a "self-awareness" eventually kicks in? I think that as long as a droid has the "awareness" of itself like a toaster does, it is a tool to be used. But once it starts thinking for itself and shows any non-programmed sign of emotion, it essentially becomes a new species worthy of being treated as such.

icatch9
04-21-2003, 03:25 PM
I think one this that isn't realized is how "human" are the droids in Star Wars. 3P0 always talks of his programing. This I think is the key. He is programed to do certain things in his way. I doubt he'd be capabul of doing things for himself. I mean things he wanted to do. I think the droids are made with serving in mind. This is sort of slavery, but not really becasue they have no other purpose. A droid without a master is as useless as a microwave without an outlet. Wouldn't have anything to do and no desire to do anything.

dr_evazan22
04-21-2003, 05:16 PM
There were a number of instances where 3PO and R2 took initiative on their own, w/ out being told to by their masters: Leaving Padme's ship on Geo; leaving Padme's ship on Tatooine, trying to make Leia's quarters more comfortable by turning the heat up, R2 re-enabling the hyperdrive (ESB) and shields (TPM). I'm sure there are other examples I haven't brought up.

Even pets or other living animals have laws to help protect them from unnescessary cruelty/torture.

TheDarthVader
04-21-2003, 08:08 PM
I must disagree that a droid is a slave. I do agree with icatch9. The droid is like a tool. Anakin built C3PO so he could be used as a tool. C3PO does not love or fall in love. C3PO only does what he is programmed to do. Yes, he may have some kind of odd chip that allows him to learn and such but he has no religion. He only knows facts of different religions. (like in ROTJ) When R2D2 fixed the hyperdrive, the city's computer "told" him that it was disabled...so he enabled it. It is not complicated...it is just as simple as that. Even though C3PO says things like " I never doubted you for a second! Wonderful!" I do not think he knows what he is REALLY saying or what is truely meant by this. It is kinda like when a kid will say a curse word or an obscenity or something like hasta la vista baby...they don't really know what it means. C3PO can't have the feelings of doubt, hope, sadness, or love. He is a robot...a machine for goodness sake!!! Made of machine parts. He was activated not born. He will eventually deactivate...not die. He was not created biologically. He has no psychology...he can not be depressed. Same goes for r2d2. Sorry, but I MUST disagree.

dr_evazan22
04-21-2003, 11:56 PM
Your right, TDV. When Luke was trapped outdoors overnight on Hoth, 3PO didn't get depressed about the situation (even though R2 was clearly concerned). In fact he remained quite hopeful that Luke would survive. Afterall Luke is/was quite clever, for a human being.

edit

I don't mean to imply that all droids display or have the same spark that 3PO and R2 have, but these are the droids that we are most familiar w/.

TheDarthVader
04-22-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
I do not think he knows what he is REALLY saying. It is kinda like when a kid will say a curse word or an obscenity or something like hasta la vista baby...they don't really know what it means. (doesn't know what it REALLY means or feels like to be hopeful) I already touched on this.
We didn't see much out of FX-7...so I can't comment on him. He didn't make a peep in the movie...kinda hard to say one way or the other IMO. He may seem "human like". What about 2B-1? He talks to Luke and seems "human-like". What about (my best example) EV-9D9 from Jabba's palace?? "You're a fisety (spell.?) one, but you'll soon learn some respect." Your arguement becomes invalid...there are other droids that show human-like qualities. My arguement was that a droid was not all that human-like when you look at the facts. (the "deep" facts) So it is still sustained, IMO.
More about the slave thing--is your hunting dog, yellow or black lab, a slave? He does work for you. I don't think he is.

JON9000
04-22-2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader

More about the slave thing--is your hunting dog, yellow or black lab, a slave? He does work for you. I don't think he is.

But I would argue that droids are more closely related to humans because their AI makes them so. It appears that in the Star Wars films, droids also have emotions and feelings.

JediTricks
04-22-2003, 07:01 PM
These aren't robots on an auto assembly line we're talking about, we're talking about characters like C-3PO, R2-D2, TC-14, 2-1B, etc., just like any other race of characters in the SW movies, the important ones get to be humanized with lines and pseudo-emotions while the background ones get background tasks. However, this doesn't make them mindless automatons, it simply means that they aren't focused upon.

Caesar referred to the "3rd class status" issue I brought up most recently last month in this post (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=235061#post235061). I am fairly confident that it was always Lucas' intention to show droids as slaves, in ANH 3PO has lines like "We seem to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life"; his interaction with humans is to call them "master" or "mistress"; his role is to be obedient and helpful yet clearly he has feelings and forms relationships with the people around him beyond just being a tool. I believe the droids of the SW universe go beyond programmed-response emotions you'd get from a Furby or a personality program in your computer, even the Battle Droids seem to have worries and doubts in Ep 1.

stillakid
04-22-2003, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
in ANH 3PO has lines like "We seem to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life";

If anything, it's this line that puts the question to rest. 3PO isn't just parroting some bit of programming regarding his "purpose" for existence. He's absolutely expressing an emotional response and drawing a conclusion based on his personal experience. This goes way beyond what a mere talking toaster could muster. While they clearly begin as machines, I suppose the proper conclusion for us to draw is that they are "learning computers" that have the capability to develop personality and a sense of self that isn't present at conception.

keith koth
04-24-2003, 09:37 AM
I think that in order to be a slave, one must be enslaved (i.e., their basic rights and liberties denied).

Websters defines slavery as:

A person held in servitude.

Websters defines servitude as:

A condition in which one lacks liberty, especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.

If one is to assume that droids are slaves, then based upon the definitions provided, one must assume that:

1. Droids lack liberty.
2. Droids have no control over their actions (i.e., they are forced to do everything)
3. Droids aspire to be something more than what they are (i.e., does C-3PO dream of some day owning his own linguistics school, or perhaps retiring to the Star Wars equivilant of Flordia?).

It seems to me that droids have no problem with what they are asked to do...they gladly do it...as that is what they are programed to do.

Droids never show any aspiration to do anything outside their programed functions...what other course of action would a droid take?...What other way of life would a droid choose?...they cannot choose something other that what they are programed to do...so I believe that they cannot be slaves.

Patient Zero
04-24-2003, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by keith koth
Droids never show any aspiration to do anything outside their programed functions...what other course of action would a droid take?...What other way of life would a droid choose?...they cannot choose something other that what they are programed to do...so I believe that they cannot be slaves.



Funny! I could say the same thing about most humans. Individuals that know to do only what they have been taught to do and what they believe that they are expected to do simply because they have never questioned if they are truly free or just believe that they are because they are told so. It, true freedom, all comes down to consciously recognizing and rethinking the preprogrammed conditioning that we have all been shackled by since our birth/creation. Droids, humans, whatever!

However to better answer your question, in order for anything to honestly desire freedom (being preprogramed for imitation does not count) it must first have consciousness. So the question becomes "Do droids dream of electric sheep?".....no, sorry I mean "Do droids have consciousness or are they preprogramed to simply imitate it?" But in that string of thought, you would first have to define consciousness.


What!?! Why is everyone eating pickles in the coroner? Did I bore you away? :crazed:

keith koth
04-24-2003, 10:29 AM
Little Anakin was a slave...he was kept against his will...he had dreams, aspirations, and goals (all of which could not be realized in the "arrangement" he had with Watto)...None of these things are evident in droids.

Not once did we ever hear a droid say "I dream of ___", "I aspire to ___", or "My goal is ___". Those that are enslaved would have these sorts of feelings and would most likely discuss them freely behind the backs of those who have enslaved them.

Droids never try to run or escape. There is no "Underground Railroad" for oppressed droids. There is no promiseland for droids to escape to...or to even aspire to escape to.

Droids cannot have consciousness...they have no guilt or shame...they do not love or hate...they do not make decisions to do one thing or another unless they are programmed to do so (i.e., If X, then Y...If Y, then Z...etc.) Droids cannot have original thought...they cannot be inovative...the list could go on and on!

So, no they do not have a traditional sense of consciousness...perhaps they are programed to display some characteristics of human consciousness, but only to make them more compatible with their human owner/operator.

Essentially, being a slave all depends on one's state of mind. If one feels that they are being held back in any way, then they could consider theirself to be a slave. One could be a slave to the government, a slave to society, a slave to their job, a slave to their family...heck, one could even be a slave to one's self!

So, I guess that if a droid felt "held back" in some way, then yes it could be a slave. However, as I already stated, droids know nothing more than what they are programed to know...so NO, they can not be slaves.

TheDarthVader
04-24-2003, 01:56 PM
Finally! Someone who agrees with me and can post better explanations of my (our) pov. Good write-up, Keith Koth.

JediTricks
04-24-2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Websters defines servitude as:

A condition in which one lacks liberty, especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.

If one is to assume that droids are slaves, then based upon the definitions provided, one must assume that:

1. Droids lack liberty.
2. Droids have no control over their actions (i.e., they are forced to do everything)
3. Droids aspire to be something more than what they are. Why must one assume that being a slave means you have to aspire to something more than they are? Slave owners have beaten that out of their slaves for millennia and those slaves that DO aspire to more are often angry (rightfully so) at those that do not.

As for your #1 assumption, look at how droids are treated at the cantina. "We don't serve their kind here".


Originally posted by keith koth
Little Anakin was a slave...he was kept against his will...he had dreams, aspirations, and goals (all of which could not be realized in the "arrangement" he had with Watto)...None of these things are evident in droids.
Anakin's Ep 1 slavery is questionable at best - the kid goes home and gets to build droids. According to the EU, human slaves in the SW universe are not so much a workforce as they are a status symbol since droids do much of the manual labor. The only thing that seems to make him a slave is his invisible tether to Watto's destructo-controller - Ani and his mother seem to be more pets than slaves.



Originally posted by keith koth
Droids cannot have consciousness...they have no guilt or shame...they do not love or hate...they do not make decisions to do one thing or another unless they are programmed to do so (i.e., If X, then Y...If Y, then Z...etc.) Droids cannot have original thought...they cannot be inovative...the list could go on and on! What about 3PO when he thought Luke and the others were being smashed in the garbage masher? "Listen to them! They're dying, Artoo! Curse my metal body! I wasn't fast enough. It's all my fault!" That's empassioned guilt right there. Just because they don't often express feelings outwardly doesn't mean they don't have them. C-3PO feels insulted by the protocol droid on Bespin and right afterwards shows curiosity for an astromech voice. 3PO and R2 routinely show loyalty for certain characters over others despite "ownership", that's got to be based on emotions otherwise they'd just follow their programming. 3PO also shows he's self-aware when he flips out at R2 for showing Jabba the message about the droids being a gift, he's expressing fear about his person being transferred to this awful Hutt.

TheDarthVader
04-24-2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
As for your #1 assumption, look at how droids are treated at the cantina. "We don't serve their kind here".

You mean to tell me that you believe droids drink alcohol? If the cantina has a limited # of seats (and it seemed very busy), you think the manager/bartender is going to let droids in when they aren't even going to give him business?? They wouldn't even have room for thirty or however many droids! That's a crazy assumption...
That was the only reason Wuher told them that they "don't serve their kind here". Droids don't drink or eat. And the business is a BAR.

keith koth
04-24-2003, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I am fairly confident that it was always Lucas' intention to show droids as slaves

Can you please show me where at anytime in the past that GL has been quoted as saying that droids were ment to be slaves?

The entire SW saga centers around the idea of freeing the oppressed peoples of the galaxy from the clutches of the Empire. If GL intended for the droids to be slaves, then why were they never set free? It just doesn't make sense...slavery is completely contradictory to the cause of the Republic.

JT, do you consider your computer to be your slave? How about your TV...perhaps your microwave? These are all just tools visualized, developed, and constructed by humans to make our lives easier. In a sense, they are slaves to us because we utilize them for our gain and we do not pay them back in any way. However, to be a slave in an organic sense, one must feel a desire to be more than what they are, yet they must be held back in some way. None of your appliances have this desire to be more, nor do they feel held back in any way...and neither do the droids. If one is to consider machinery as slaves, then perhaps the definition of "slave" must be re-written. :)

dr_evazan22
04-25-2003, 08:23 AM
I don't think it would be unfair to assume that at least SOME business' will offer some kind of service to droids (oil baths to clean sand and grit, power couplings), otherwise why have a droid detector unit at the door? Simply post a sign at the door that there are no droids allowed. Wuher's attitude was of discrimination, not "no shirt, no shoes, no service".

keith koth
04-25-2003, 10:45 AM
Okay, here is the bottom line IMO: a device cannot be a slave to it's creator.

I don't know if anyone here is religious...but if you are, then do you consider yourself a slave to your deity?

I would say that those who do believe in a higher power (i.e., the creator) would perhaps feel as though they are servents to their deity, but they gladly do so...which is a far cry from slavery.

Okay, so C-3PO has a few lines that seem to lend argument to him having "feelings", but each of those instances can be rationally explained as an affect of his "human like" interface or his programmed "sense of duty".

How can one look at the definition of "slave" and honestly say that any of the droids meets the required criteria of the definition? Quit trying to redefine the english language and accept the following:

Droids = Servents: YES
Droids = Slaves: NO

:)

Patient Zero
04-25-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by keith koth
I don't know if anyone here is religious...but if you are, then do you consider yourself a slave to your deity?

I would say that those who do believe in a higher power (i.e., the creator) would perhaps feel as though they are servents to their deity, but they gladly do so...which is a far cry from slavery.:)

Errrrr...how in the world can I talk about this without it becoming religious based!?! So here is a question. How about all of the black...coloured...however you want to describe/divide it...humans who were subjected to dominance in the southern US at one time. What of those who simply accepted their "lot in life" because it seemed better then the alternative of death. They did what they were told to do because for many of them it was the only reality that they knew. Now I am by no means interested in debating any race issue, but are you saying that these individuals were merely servants and not slaves?


Addition: As for the actual issue of droids being slaves, you would have to ask Lucas about the imitation of emotion in his creations and if they are indeed AI or just preprogramed to respond in certain ways. From what I have seen I would have to say that droids are technically slaves but are not completely aware of it and thus do not question it. This opinion is taken from what I have seen in the movies and read of droids in EU books (4-Lom comes to mind).

keith koth
04-25-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
Errrrr...how in the world can I talk about this without it becoming religious based!?! So here is a question. How about all of the black...coloured...however you want to describe/divide it...humans who were subjected to dominance in the southern US at one time. What of those who simply accepted their "lot in life" because it seemed better then the alternative of death. They did what they were told to do because for many of them it was the only reality that they knew. Now I am by no means interested in debating any race issue, but are you saying that these individuals were merely servants and not slaves?

Black slaves did fight back. They were punished or killed quite often for such actions. Have you ever heard of the Civil War? Blacks played a major role in their own freedom. Have you ever heard of the Underground Railroad? This was a system, used by slaves well before they were granted freedom, in which they RAN AWAY from their oppressors. Those that did not directly fight back against their enslavement had not "accepted their lot in life" they just realized that there many roles to be played in the "war" against slavery. Such "passive" individuals still played major roles in the eventual uprising and freedom of their people. They provided food/shelter/moral support/etc. to those who were physically fighting back. One thing is for sure, all black slaves had dreams/goals/aspirations to be more than what they were...and they certainly felt "held back" by their enslavers. Droids never even hint at such actions nor do we hear about a droid "up rising" against "mechanical slavery"; thus, that makes them SERVANTS not slaves.


Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
Addition: As for the actual issue of droids being slaves, you would have to ask Lucas about the imitation of emotion in his creations and if they are indeed AI or just preprogramed to respond in certain ways. From what I have seen I would have to say that droids are technically slaves but are not completely aware of it and thus do not question it. This opinion is taken from what I have seen in the movies and read of droids in EU books (4-Lom comes to mind).

I'm glad you used the term AI! That says it all right there. Any intelligence that droids may have is entirely ARTIFICIAL; thus, all emotions/thoughts/ideas/feelings/etc. are all artificial! This just lends further support to my statement that droids are not slaves, as you cannot enslave something that is artificial/man made. :)

stillakid
04-25-2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
I'm glad you used the term AI! That says it all right there. Any intelligence that droids may have is entirely ARTIFICIAL; thus, all emotions/thoughts/ideas/feelings/etc. are all artificial! This just lends further support to my statement that droids are not slaves, as you cannot enslave something that is artificial/man made. :)

So what about "people"? All of us are "man made" (woman-made actually).

Okay, so maybe we are not "artificial," but where do you draw the line? What happens in 100 years or so when scientists really can manipulate DNA and other organic materials to create a variety of "artificial" organic "things."

For instance, in the DUNE series, Frank Herbert concocted these things called "chair-dogs." Entirely organic, non-sentient, yet living beings with no other purpose than to make a person's sitting experience as comfortable as possible. Slave or not? Does the entity have to have the ability to think and react in a manner that diverts from it's original programming or purpose? What if one day that chair-dog stops doing it's job? Because it wasn't designed to speak or communicate, all we could do is guess.

There are two possibilities. 1 is that it is merely broken. Whatever makes it do what it does technically, is just worn out and needs replaced. 2 is that the chair-dog "decided" that it didn't want to do it anymore. In both cases, the same result is evident, but #2 gives us a sentient reason. Regardless, to us, whether the thing chose to not work or not, it is still "broken" because it won't do the job it was built for.

So, do the droids in Star Wars really choose to do the things they do, or are all their decisions entirely within the parameters of the original programming? IF they did venture outside the walls of their original programming, would they be considered "broken"?

keith koth
04-25-2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
So what about "people"? All of us are "man made" (woman-made actually).

Technically, we are all nature made! Females donate an egg, males donate a sperm...the rest is all up to nature. We do not choose what color eyes our children have, we do not choose their intelligence level, we do not get to choose whether or not they are born with birth defects, etc. Most importantly, we do not get to choose our offspring's brain...we can not decide how they think, what they think, or when they think it!


Originally posted by stillakid
Okay, so maybe we are not "artificial," but where do you draw the line? What happens in 100 years or so when scientists really can manipulate DNA and other organic materials to create a variety of "artificial" organic "things."

That is one of the pitfalls of cloning/genetic manipulation and it warrants much consideration and debate. However, even if you could control the genetics of a "lab created" being, if it had a brain inside of it, you could not control it's thoughts. Therefore, if it is a free thinking, organic being then I suppose that it could feel enslaved. But only if it aspired for more in life, yet felt held back in some way.


Originally posted by stillakid
So, do the droids in Star Wars really choose to do the things they do, or are all their decisions entirely within the parameters of the original programming? IF they did venture outside the walls of their original programming, would they be considered "broken"?

I would say YES, if my droid/computer/TV/microwave/etc. began to venture outside of their original programming parameters, then I would consider them "broken". Maybe "broken" for the better, maybe for the worse (depending on how you look at it). However, if any of my machinery ever asked me to pay for it to work, or if it ran away from it's "oppression", then I may feel differently...but I would probably just have it scrapped and go buy a new one.

The key here is the term organic...which is a natural phenomanon that man did not ceate...rather, man was created by organics. In the case of the droids, they are metal and silicone, and most importantly... their circuitry (which gives them "life") is entirely constructed by man; which gives us authority over it and gives us the right to utilize them as we see fit. Just as man fills a niche in nature's "master plan", so to does machinery fill a niche in man's "master plan".

Patient Zero
04-25-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Black slaves did fight back. They were punished or killed quite often for such actions. Have you ever heard of the Civil War? Blacks played a major role in their own freedom. Have you ever heard of the Underground Railroad? This was a system, used by slaves well before they were granted freedom, in which they RAN AWAY from their oppressors. Those that did not directly fight back against their enslavement had not "accepted their lot in life" they just realized that there many roles to be played in the "war" against slavery. Such "passive" individuals still played major roles in the eventual uprising and freedom of their people. They provided food/shelter/moral support/etc. to those who were physically fighting back. One thing is for sure, all black slaves had dreams/goals/aspirations to be more than what they were...and they certainly felt "held back" by their enslavers. Droids never even hint at such actions nor do we hear about a droid "up rising" against "mechanical slavery"; thus, that makes them SERVANTS not slaves.



Yes, I have actually heard of such things and many did fight to the death for their own freedom and won it eventually. However, you don't actually believe that some did not accept what was being done to them, at some time during this, because they were born into slavery and had not been taught otherwise, do you? Perhaps you do...and may I suggest that you read some books on human conditioning.

Unfortinate that I can not discuss religion, as your prior statement on it is, IMO incorrect, but that is the way things go. I am merely attempting to state that people rarely realize that they are slaves. I am not interested in discussing things with someone whom refuses to entertain the notion that their ideas may be incorrect. There is no growth when this is the case and therefore no point.

There is an old Buddhist tale about a wondering monk whom rests one night in a cemetery. As there is no light from the sun he must use his sense of touch to inform him of his surrounding. As he is very thirsty, he gropes around for any place that rain water might have collected. Finally he finds some and after drinking it goes to bed. In the morning, he decides to have another drink and as he looks into the liquids location, begins to vomit profusely.

Make of it what you will.
:D

keith koth
04-25-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
I am not interested in discussing things with someone whom refuses to entertain the notion that their ideas may be incorrect.

I feel the same way...What makes you feel as though you are the one that is right? I know...because it is YOUR idea.

I will certainly admit it when I have been proven wrong, but I have not seen 1 soild argument that lends proof to droids being slaves. All I have seen is a bunch of opinions with no factual evidence to back it up. Heck, nobody even tried to refute my position on the definition of "slavery". How can one legitimately think they are winning a bebate, or think that they are 100% correct, when they refuse to use factual data to support their argument?

On another note, yes some slaves were passive and accepted their current situation. However, it was not because they had to, or because of human conditioning...it had to do with the survival of themselves and their future progeny, which they knew with all of their hearts, minds, and souls would someday "taste" freedom.

Heck, I feel like a "slave" to my job, but if I save my money and make wise investment choices, then perhaps I will leave enough of an inheritance to my children that they will not feel like a "slave" to their job. Perhaps my children will feel like a slave to their jobs, but if they take their inheritance and save/invest wisely, then perhaps their children will feel "free" from their jobs. That doesn't mean that I have "given up" and "accepted my lot in life", as I strive for the betterment of my genetic lineage. So, I see hope in the future.

It is funny that you use the phrase "human conditioning" in your previous post...what does "human conditioning" have to to with droids, which are a synthetic product?

Patient Zero
04-25-2003, 01:26 PM
Ugggghh! This all just goes round and round and round. I attempted to make a point, but you are becoming defensive and getting hung up on little things like the idea of human conditioning being similar to droid conditioning. As for me being right, I have already stated that I don't know the answer and you will have to ask Lucas. So I couldn't get my point across to you, life goes on and you let go. Relax...you'll live longer...post in a thread where you don't have to argue with everyone. Make a joke...or don't. Your choice!

stillakid
04-25-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
The key here is the term organic...which is a natural phenomanon that man did not ceate...rather, man was created by organics. In the case of the droids, they are metal and silicone, and most importantly... their circuitry (which gives them "life") is entirely constructed by man; which gives us authority over it and gives us the right to utilize them as we see fit. Just as man fills a niche in nature's "master plan", so to does machinery fill a niche in man's "master plan".

No, the key term is "manipulate." In my example above, intelligent sentient beings manipulate nature in such a way as to create something that didn't previously exist. I have sex with my mate so that we intentionally manipulate nature to create the desired effect of another organic being. Scientists currently manipulate non-organic matter to create objects that didn't currently exist in nature, like a toaster. In some respects, they even now manipulate organic matter to create "non-natural" results and or objects, whether it be a vaccine or a replacement organ.

So essentially, the situation is that we have organic naturally occurring universal elements (us) manipulating other naturally occurring elements (organic and non-organic) to produce a desired non-naturally occurring result and/or object.

What's this mean relative to your conclusion above? From where I stand, nobody gave "human-kind" the right to manipulate anything. We just kinda do it. So we have as much "right" to "enslave" a toaster as we do another organic entity, particularly if we created both (kitchen appliance/human being). Neither have really been "created" by us, rather humans have "manipulated" naturally occurring elements in the universe to bring a previously "non-existing" thing into existence.

With that out of the way, it brings us to this preposterous idea that humans are somehow "blessed" with more "rights" than anything else in the universe. Blessed by whom? By ourselves essentially. Anyway, the argument is that we can't enslave other humans because the human mind possesses the ability to "want" something else for itself. Ergo, we're "forcing" the being to do something it would rather not be doing. But says who? Isn't that "desire for more" just societal programming as well? Try locking an infant in a closet for the better part of it's life and see what happens. Without the input of anyone telling it what is outside those walls, it's entire existence and "purpose" is defined by it's keeper. Not only can it not desire anything else, it simply doesn't even know anything else. It CAN'T want more than it has if it has no clue that it exists. For instance, there might be untold joy and happiness in the 11th dimension (as defined by String Theory) but being that we haven't seen the 11th dimension or have proof that it really is there, my mind can't even grasp the potential of what could make me so giddy if and when I ever manage to travel there.

So just like the Jango Clones who are brought to life (with MANIPULATED genetic material) with one express purpose in mind, the droids too are created (with MANIPULATED naturally occurring elements) with a purpose in mind.

So I submit that it is just as wrong to USE my computer, toaster, and stapler as it is to USE another human-being to do my will.

:D

keith koth
04-25-2003, 02:04 PM
Okay, Ghost of Jonna...you are right and I apologize.

However, when I originally posted in this thread, I was merely stating my opinion just as everyone else had done. However, when someone QUOTES my previous post and tries to REFUTE my opinion, then I have every right to continue the debate by QUOTING them and pointing out the flaws in their reasoning.

If you think that you are right or that I am wrong or that the truth may lie somewhere in the middle, then just leave my opinion alone. If you just accept my opinion, then from here on out, I will give your opinions the same respect. However, if you dare quote me with intentions of showing "superiority" of your way of thought, then a debate will certainly follow.

Can we coexist under these terms?

keith koth
04-25-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
So I submit that it is just as wrong to USE my computer, toaster, and stapler as it is to USE another human-being to do my will.

If that is the broad definition of slavery then you are right. Heck, in that scenario everything is a slave...from the shoes we wear to the air we breath...every atom in the universe is a slave to every other atom in interacts with.

The point is that we must draw a line somewhere when defining things. So where does one draw that line? For you, that line may be at point A, for others that line may be at point B...and so on. The idea of individually defining "slavery" makes this whole debate pointless, because the correct answer is different for each of us.

If you are going by the "standard" definition of slavery as quoted from Webster's (as I was doing) then I honestly believe that droids are not slaves in the "traditional" sense...and I'm sure that if you asked any African American if they see droids as being enslaved in the "traditional" sense of the word, then they would give you a BIG "HELL NO!"

So, now that I know that you are refering to the term "slave" in the "universal" sense, then YES...I must agree that everything is a slave to something...but that just deminishes the "traditional" meaning of the word to me.

TheDarthVader
04-25-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
post in a thread where you don't have to argue with everyone.

Sounds to me like you have a problem, not Keith Koth. And he is not arguing with everyone. I agree with him 100%. So don't ostracize him.


Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
From what I have seen I would have to say that droids are technically slaves but are not completely aware of it and thus do not question it.

They are either aware of it or they are not. There is no "completely" aware. That is contradictory.

A droid is not born...therefore he can not have the rights of the living anyway. He is built and programmed to do a job. He does not die. A philosopher once said "life can be summed up in three words: birth, reproduction, and death." A robot/droid does none of these so he can not even be classified as "living". He is built, activated, then deactivated. End of story. Something that is dead, a human, can not have rights. They are DEAD. They have to be LIVING. A droid does not live because he is not born and he does not reproduce or die.

And I have a quote for you from AOTC from C3PO..."There's been some terrible mistake. I'm programmed for etiquette, not destruction." His awarness has boundries which are set by his program. He can be reprogrammed also. And have his memory cleared (ANH).

Patient Zero
04-25-2003, 04:05 PM
Number one, TheDarthVader.

Sounds to me like you have a problem, not Keith Koth. And he is not arguing with everyone. I agree with him 100%. So don't ostracize him.

I fail to see how I am ostracizing anyone. And if you agree with him then good for you; it does not sway my vote. The funny thing is that I was not disagreeing with him when I made my original post. I was simply using the quote as a spring board for my opinions on how I see people acting like droids and feeling as though they are locked in situations because they don't feel as though they have freedom enough to change them. Perhaps this is where the confusion in the conversation began. Keith Koth was talking about droids being human where as I was talking about humans being droids.

Why are you now looking to start something? I was just going to let this all die, but I felt the need to respond to your post. As far as KK and problems with other posters (whoevers fault it might be) check the other places that he is posting. Like right now!


They are either aware of it or they are not. There is no "completely" aware. That is contradictory.

You should check the dictionary on the definition of contradictory. As for the actual sentence, if you remember that I am actually talking about people, this is something that I see daily. People who are aware of their own existance, but not aware of how many things that they are slaves to and how little freedom they actually believe that they have.

Don't get defensive, because I am not atacking you or engaging you in a debate. I simply came back to give you an explination.


DONE!

TheDarthVader
04-25-2003, 04:50 PM
First of all, I'm not trying to start anything. I just think you ostracized him , okay maybe excluded him, when you told just him to stop arguing with people. You didn't tell me to stop, or stillakid, or jedi tricks...just seems like you pin-pointed him.

Second of all, I have never considered myself a slave in any situation. I feel free to do what I want to do. So, I still disagree with you if you are saying that people are slaves (well everyone is) but just isn't aware of it. You're using the word metaphorically and hypothetically.

Third, I am not a confrontational person...never have been, never will be. Get my highschool conduct record if you want...I was never in a fight. So, I'm not trying to upset anyone...that would be mean. I'm sorry that my post offends you and is subject to ridicule.

I'm just explaining my opinion so don't get defensive. I respect everyone's opinion, I promise.

stillakid
04-25-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
A droid is not born...therefore he can not have the rights of the living anyway. He is built and programmed to do a job. He does not die. A philosopher once said "life can be summed up in three words: birth, reproduction, and death." A robot/droid does none of these so he can not even be classified as "living". He is built, activated, then deactivated. End of story. Something that is dead, a human, can not have rights. They are DEAD. They have to be LIVING. A droid does not live because he is not born and he does not reproduce or die.

And I have a quote for you from AOTC from C3PO..."There's been some terrible mistake. I'm programmed for etiquette, not destruction." His awarness has boundries which are set by his program. He can be reprogrammed also. And have his memory cleared (ANH).

I'm finding myself not agreeing with the above logic. The entire argument depends upon the symantics of the words born vs built, death vs deactivated. In either case, things that weren't suddenly are regardless of the mechanics involved. Isn't "death" merely when something permanently ceases to continue being "active," both physically and mentally?

TheDarthVader
04-25-2003, 11:30 PM
Stillakid, I understand where you are coming from...it all depends on how you look at it. No one would say that the droid "died"...would they? would you? If so, then I can understand what you are saying a little more but if not...???...I wouldn't say that a droid died. I would say more, but I do not want to begin a religious thread (against rules). over&out

stillakid
04-26-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
I wouldn't say that a droid died.

Why not? My toaster died. My car died. My radio died. I've used similar phrases all my life as have others around me. Language is merely a symbolic means of expressing an idea, whether it be squiggly shapes written down (we call them letters) or oral "noises" that we call vocalizations or words. So regardless of the mechanics that seem to define different meanings, when we talk about something dying, 9 times out of 10 all we are saying fundamentally is that it has been permanently "stopped." It (whatever "it" happens to be) is done doing what it used to do forever. So we say that organisms "die," and machines are "deactivated," but it all really means the same exact thing.

JediTricks
04-27-2003, 02:17 AM
Let's look at how sw.com describes R2 (http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/r2d2/index.html) and 3PO (http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/c3po/index.html):

R2:

It's his bravery, however, that has made him an invaluable asset to his owners and friends.

For his courage, Artoo was personally thanked and recognized by Queen Amidala.

Artoo-Detoo met the homemade protocol droid C-3PO, and struck up a friendship that would eventually last decades.

The little droid continued to loyaly serve Amidala

Determined to complete his mission, Artoo ran away in the middle of the night
3PO:

A fussy and worry-prone protocol droid

Threepio had to live with the indignity of being "naked,"

Threepio proclaimed that he would never set foot into one of those, as he put it, dreadful starships.

This marked the first time the nervous Threepio had ever been aboard a starship.

Threepio simply could not understand the astromech droid's clearly faulty logic... but the stubborn little droid nonetheless journeyed into the unknown with Threepio in tow.

The concept of machines manufacturing machines gave Threepio's logic circuits a flutter

Threepio likened the unsettling body-swapping to a peculiar dream

This started an incredible chain of events that saw Threepio catapulted into an adventure beyond his imagination.
Look at the words and concepts used to describe these characters: bravery, courage, friendship, loyalty, determination, fussy, worry-prone, indignity, nervous, stubborn. These descriptions also include dreaming, fear, concern, imagination, and disobedience. These are not characteristics of just machines, these droids are shown to have (for lack of a better term) humanity.

In the context of Star Wars, I don't think there is any concrete way to draw a distinction between the spirit that the organic characters carry within them and the spirit within the mechanical characters like R2 and 3PO. In that context, droids are slaves.

Lucas continues to use human actors to portray many of the droids, and Burtt continues to use humanoid sounds for the non-verbal droids even so far as to have a Gonk droid scream in pain in one film while receiving torture from another droid specifically designed for that task.

JON9000
04-27-2003, 11:42 AM
It seems like the droids are not slaves position seems to boil down to 2 main points- droids are not organic creatures, therefore, they cannot be slaves; droids are not conscious of their servitude and do not seek anything more, or to put it a little differently, they do not have rights because they do not assert rights.

The organic / artificial aspect is fine if you want to use it, but the rationale for slavery in the United States was that people from the African continent were somehow less than human as well.

As far as the second part, droids do not aspire to something more, everything they do is programmed, their mentality is nothing but a series of ones and zeroes, I am not so sure about that one. Again, IG-88 seems to have his own thing going on. And remember restraining bolts.

It would be interesting if the republic were to take this up. Free all the droids and see what would happen. Would they immediately form their own society, blend right in, or simply start running aound in circles because their programming would leave them with nothing to do?

TheDarthVader
04-28-2003, 05:19 PM
This is for stillakid, jedi tricks, or the ghost of jonna...

Is Lobot a slave?? Why or why not?

JediTricks
04-28-2003, 08:50 PM
Interesting points JON. Why is it that everybody uses IG-88 as a reference and not 4-LOM though? They're both bounty hunters. Good point about the restraining bolts, even after the Lars family buys R2 and 3PO they keep those restraining bolts on, only when Luke is alone with the droids and convinced (read: tricked) by R2 and 3PO does he remove R2's bolt.

I think ultimately the answer comes down to contextual issues since this is a fantasy film, you wouldn't say your cellphone is a slave but then again your cellphone can't lie to Stormtroopers or feel guilty about its friends being hurt.


TDV, according to the EU, Lobot was caught stealing and sentenced to being an indentured servant to the city which included having cybornetic elements added to him. However, once his sentence was up, he voluntarily continued the job. So I guess in that respect, he's no longer a slave.

Jargo
04-29-2003, 06:53 PM
So if droids are slaves then the cybernetic part of vader is a slave to his organic part. The suit serves the master and intellectual superior.

My question is why would you even question this or bring up the subject? Star wars uses terms like 'serve' and 'master' so obviously there is some degree of subservience to the machines. Their one strength is pure linear logic vs random non-linear human and alien thinking. Droids and machines only triumph or master those less able to think logically. Having a computer brain that has no emotion and can run through every possible tangent a conversation might take to come up with the perfect answer beats some barely intelligent bipedal organic brain full of random emotional flashes that cloud judgement and reason and make logic nigh on impossible to follow. A droid is superior in the one sense but then the random cruelty of organic life means a droid that is deemed too 'clever' will have it's memory wiped so it becomes a 'simpleton' once more and must begin to accumulate programming and memory. It's like having a child and forcing the child to stay stupid by not allowing it to learn, lobotomising it so that it can never learn enough to become an equal or better. Some droids are merely motive tools, like an R1 astro droid. basically just a boiler fixer. Or the small senate cam droids that simply locate the speakers in the senate chambers whenever a pod floats to the center of the chamber. Others like 3-PO are more sophisticated because they need to be able to communicate and understand the conversations to be able to translate. As such they are programmed to respond with sentient life response even though they are ultimately meaningless utterances. The droid feels no emotion. Is unable to feel real compassion but is able to mimmick it at the appropriate point due to the programming of it's 'brain'.
Droids are simply programmed to do specific tasks and not to sit thinking about philosophy and the meaning of life and the nature of love etc. Insofar as they have no real emotions they therefore have no real feelings and will not be staging any protests or uprising protesting that their pay is poor and their working conditions are atrocious and they get no thanks and hey, where's the union rep because these conditions are tantamount to slavery.
Just aint going to happen. The problem is humans tend to anthropomorphasise inanimate objects way too much and ascribe human attributes to anything and everything. Like calling a car 'she' or a ship 'her' both are just hunks of metal strapped around a simple engine and motor drive but humans feel it necessary to make them seem alive somehow and to think they have personality. It's similar with droids and you see it in star wars. Luke is far too familiar with his droids. Anakin and Padme treat R2 as familiar and as a well oiled motive computer cum swiss army knife. They don't appear to be too attached to the droid though. Basically treating it the way it should be treated. as a machine.
IMO machines as slaves has got to be the wackiest subject yet. Now, Yarna D'al gargan, Oola, Leia as slaves I can accept. The rancor or the arena beasts as slaves I can accept. Creatures used to and born to freedom, bound to one lifeform in servitude. But droidfs and machines definately not.

stillakid
04-30-2003, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
A droid is superior in the one sense but then the random cruelty of organic life means a droid that is deemed too 'clever' will have it's memory wiped so it becomes a 'simpleton' once more and must begin to accumulate programming and memory. It's like having a child and forcing the child to stay stupid by not allowing it to learn, lobotomising it so that it can never learn enough to become an equal or better.



Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
Creatures used to and born to freedom, bound to one lifeform in servitude. But droids and machines definately not.

So, based on your two statements above, a droid cannot be a slave because it is merely a "programmed" appliance, until it begins to develop that sense of self which allows it to begin "thinking" in which case the humans would knock it back down and essentially put it in it's place. Isn't that how slave owners treated their property? Keep 'em in line. While they can't "deprogram" them in the same way, certainly a steady diet of whuppin's and other emotional and physical stresses would drum any sense of "cleverness" out of them.

Jargo
04-30-2003, 03:59 PM
Yes in a sense you're right but the difference is that organic sentient beings have real emotions and feelings where droids only have a facsimile response. Their feelings are programmed ones in response to certain pre-programmed stimuli. They are simply mimmicking humans not being humans because they are only metal coverings and capacitors and wires and binary brains.
My computer is capable of responding to me according to certain questions i ask or tasks i set but there is no real sentience or any emotional response because it's only a machine following certain logic paths to a set pattern of responses of counter queries.
My computer isn't a slave because it doesn't think for itself. Droids are no different at all. Droids cannot achieve a sense of self other than asimilating the use of 'I' to refer to themselves. Or 'My' as threepio sometimes does. His original programming prior to Anakin fixing him up must have included sub routines to mimmick speech patterns of humans but ultimately he's still a walking computer with no actual real feelings.
How can droids be slaves when they are just tools? Just tools with the power of self propulsion or ambulation. Sophisticated tools in a way most of them but not in any way sentient. It's just a Lucasism to have the two main droids wander freely and deliver dialog that sounds human for extrapolation purposes. All the other droids in the saga are just tools following certain patterns of behaviour that they probably follow daily. Certain routes they walk or trundle down, certain tasks they perform. There's only our two hero droids who have a personality and that's excused by saying they missed memory wipes. If they weren't central to the story then they'd just be portrayed as automatons same as all the other tool droids.

stillakid
04-30-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
Yes in a sense you're right but the difference is that organic sentient beings have real emotions and feelings where droids only have a facsimile response. Their feelings are programmed ones in response to certain pre-programmed stimuli.

Now we dive deep. So who "programmed" us? Who's to say yea or nay that our own emotional responses aren't merely "programmed" reactions?

Having said that, this is beyond the realm of science. While we can KNOW who created this droid or that, we can never KNOW how organic life came to be...if it is by chance or by the hand of a sentient "creator."

But I do recall a study some years ago in which researchers travelled the globe to study human behavior. They found that no matter where or what culture they visited, a smile always meant the same thing as did a frown as did laughter as did crying. Clearly there is some type of "programmed" response inherent within our own DNA structure. At least enough so to provide a general emotional response that is similar across the board despite other cultural "interferences."

Jargo
04-30-2003, 08:01 PM
Notwithstanding the fact that at some point in our past we all came from one location and simply seperated into groups and migrated as different groups to far reaching hunting grounds taking with us a common language. Those smiles are similar to ape grimaces. Travel across the globe and find ape colonies and all apes use the same visual language. And that's because apes too all started from the one location and the one troupe. Factions migrated away to other feeding grounds and those grounds became new continents during tectonic shifts cutting off one troupe from another. Migration is the key to common language in organic lifeforms.

'Who programmed us' is getting into dangerous waters so I'm leaving that one alone. If you guys want to start in on that I'll see you on the other side when the dust settles.

JediTricks
05-01-2003, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
Yes in a sense you're right but the difference is that organic sentient beings have real emotions and feelings where droids only have a facsimile response. Their feelings are programmed ones in response to certain pre-programmed stimuli. They are simply mimmicking humans not being humans because they are only metal coverings and capacitors and wires and binary brains.
My computer is capable of responding to me according to certain questions i ask or tasks i set but there is no real sentience or any emotional response because it's only a machine following certain logic paths to a set pattern of responses of counter queries.
My computer isn't a slave because it doesn't think for itself. Droids are no different at all. Droids cannot achieve a sense of self other than asimilating the use of 'I' to refer to themselves. Or 'My' as threepio sometimes does. His original programming prior to Anakin fixing him up must have included sub routines to mimmick speech patterns of humans but ultimately he's still a walking computer with no actual real feelings.
How can droids be slaves when they are just tools? It seems like this is all based on your massive assumptions about the context of droids within the Star Wars universe. You're applying the simplicity of Earth's modern technology to the ultra-advanced fantasy technology of Star Wars in order to make the assumption that Droids must be pure-logic-driven devices with programing to simulate emotion. But you don't know that, and what we've been shown in the movies seems to contradict that assumption.

Ultimately, your entire argument is based around the concept that even in the SW universe, droids are just tools that don't think for themselves - I disagree with that, I think that they go beyond being just tools and there's no question in my mind that 3PO and R2 are definitely sentient, they aren't simulating grief and joy - there'd be no reason for 3PO to simulate guilt and suffering over the perceived loss of Luke and his friends when the only person around is R2. 3PO can't abide those disgusting Jawas, but if he's just a tool that doesn't make personal choices or have personal tastes then why couldn't he tolerate Jawas, why would he form negative feelings towards them if he was just an advanced PC? Why would Battle Droids show fear and hesitation when confronted with a powerful enemy if they are just pure killing machines like their SBD cousins? If R2-D2 is just an advanced rolling computer, why would he continue to show courage, bravery, deceit, favoritism, and disobedience?

TheDarthVader
05-01-2003, 08:45 PM
Why wouldn't C3PO impersonate a diety in ROTJ? Solo asks him to and he says that it is against his programming. What do you make of this? If he's a slave, he would have done what solo told him to do.

keith koth
05-01-2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
Why wouldn't C3PO impersonate a diety in ROTJ? Solo asks him to and he says that it is against his programming. What do you make of this? If he's a slave, he would have done what solo told him to do.

BOO YAA! Damn, that was a good one...I wish I had remembered that line.

Bottom line is that that if these characters were portrayed as human, then maybe they would be slaves. However, they are not portrayed as human.

JT, you said:

Ultimately, your entire argument is based around the concept that even in the SW universe, droids are just tools that don't think for themselves.

However, ultimately, you are assuming that the term "slave" in the SW world has the same meaning as it does in our world.

If you are going to split off our two galaxies and say that what goes in one galaxy does not necessarily hold true in the other, then it is a fallacy to even try to apply the same terms (such as "slavery") to a galaxy so different from our own.

The term slave is used several times in the SW galaxy...and it always applies to humans. Never, not even once, was the term "slave" used while refering to a droid.



:happy:

JediTricks
05-01-2003, 09:52 PM
3PO is not Han Solo's droid. You'll notice that while he refers to Luke and Leia as "master" and "mistress", he mostly refers to Han as "Captain Solo".

Human or droid, we all have certain lines we are taught not to cross - it is against my upbringing to kill a human being for profit, yet clearly there are people out there who kill people for money. You could point a gun to my head and tell me to read a book in Chinese and it still wouldn't happen - although that is not a countermanding rule within me, it's still an issue of programming.

TheDarthVader
05-02-2003, 03:02 PM
It doesn't matter that C3PO is not "technically" solo's droid. I believe back in the day(early 1800's), there were slaves that did what their master told them to do as well as what friends of the master told them to do (afraid if they did not do it, their masters would be mad). Life for them was just that way. C3PO would have impersonated a diety if he was a slave.

keith koth
05-02-2003, 03:16 PM
Would the clonetroopers or stormtroopers be considered slaves? Are original "non-cloned" beings superior to their cloned counterparts? If so, or if not, then justify your reasoning to both questions.

Also, if droids were in fact "slaves", if set "free" do you think that they would reproduce (i.e., build more of themselves) in order to keep their "species" (for lack of a better term) alive? Or would they just continue their existance until they rusted apart, malfunctioned, or were deactivated through other means?

stillakid
05-02-2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
Why wouldn't C3PO impersonate a diety in ROTJ? Solo asks him to and he says that it is against his programming. What do you make of this? If he's a slave, he would have done what solo told him to do.

3PO also told Luke in ANH that he wasn't very good at telling stories, yet in ROTJ, he sums up the entire saga (to that point) in Ewokese. What's my point? That he either has the capacity to lie and deceive, or he has the capacity to learn and emote. Pick one. Either way, these are both very human traits.

I'll back JT on this one for a good reason. This Star Wars galaxy clearly isn't a mirror of our own for two reasons: 1) The Force. We don't have it (or at least we don't know about it), and 2) Midichlorians. So given the fundamental difference in the makeup of their universe (the Force) and their biology (Midi's), it's probably safe to say that their technology has no similarity to our own either.

JediTricks
05-03-2003, 06:26 AM
Keith, of course the clonetroopers are slaves, they are sentient beings that are being mentally and physiologically altered and trained to serve. They are slaves whether they know it and have an opinion about it or not. As to whether they are inferior to non-clones in some major way, that is up to Lucas since it's his canon and he hasn't shown enough clues to make an assumption about this; these aren't Dolly the sheep clones here on Earth, we have no idea if the Kaminoans have figured out how to defeat the downward spiral of multi-generational cloning, if that's even a problem in Lucas' universe. (btw, I think the 2nd question is too vague, you'd need to stipulate to what manner these non-clones are or are not superior to their clone counterparts in order to form a more solid conclusion to the question)


TDV, if you were enslaved today and clearly could not see a future where your freedom was possible, would you still not have certain limitations formed from your upbringing? For example, would you beat a child if your master ordered you to do it simply because he liked the sounds of pain? While 3PO's ethical dilemma may not seem anywhere near as severe as the one above, consider that 3PO's entire life is about diplomacy, protocol, and appearances and this would be a much more major affront to those values (programmed by a user or self-formed, they're still personal-held values) - if this were Star Trek, his impersonating a diety to an intelligent alien race would be a breach of the prime directive (in fact, they had an ep of TOS about this very thing).

keith koth
05-03-2003, 01:29 PM
JT,

Superior:

For example, since Jango was the original...does that give him the authority to order the clones around? If you were cloned, would you feel "superior" to your cloned counterpart? Would you feel as though since it is merely a copy of yourself, and you were here first...that you somehow were superior to your clone in a social sense? Now, of course, we are assuming that these clones are given "growth accelerator" and have been "dumbed down" to some degree in order to get them to function properly for their designed purpose as was suggested in AOTC.

I guess the point I am getting at is that in AOTC on Kamino, Lama Su tells Obi-Wan that "Clones can think creatively...you will find they are far superior to droids"

To me, when something is inherently "superior" to something else, then it is okay to utilize the "inferior" as a tool or "slave" as you call it.

Ultimately, I know where you are coming from...the characters of R2 and 3PO were written with uniquely human traits and were given even more humanity by the actors who portrayed them. So, perhaps they are slaves in the SW galaxy...However, the SW technology that gives these droids their "humanity" does not (and probably never will) exist in our world, since they are so vastly different. So, when you take this vast difference into account, you have to look at terminology and you must ask yourself "does the term slave have the same meaning in the SW galaxy as it has in our own?" I just don't think that it does. As I have mentioned before, the term "slave" has been used several times in the SW saga, and it always (without exception) is applied to humans. Furthermore, if GL had written the droids parts as those of slaves, then why were the droids never "freed"...that goes against everything the Rebels/Republic had fought for...not to mention it leaves a bitter ending to the SW saga, as we would be left knowing that "slavery" was still rampant throughout the galaxy.

JediTricks
05-04-2003, 09:52 PM
In the rank issue, I believe Jango not being in the military would give him no level of superiority over the clones. We're never shown Jango interacting with the clones though, he dies before they arrive on Geonosis, so there's no way to be sure. Perhaps he would have some authority over them though based on how he talks about them to Obi-Wan, but that could just be good salesmanship or pride.

I would think that despite how they're treated by Yoda and the others on Geonosis (as equals), non-clones would feel superior to clones in social settings. Clones lack a rounded upbringing and are modified in certain ways to grow faster and be obedient, generally people look down on that sort of thing. That doesn't mean that the social opinion about clones is correct though, 2 centuries ago our society thought that black slaves were inferior - if that type of perspective hadn't changed, we would still be actively oppressing an entire people based solely on our antiquated beliefs.


BTW, despite our stalled computer designing (we're just increasing speed right now, not actual processing concepts) I don't believe the ability to create an artificial mind that can learn and form emotions on its own is outside of our grasp. We've already created machines that can mimic the minds of insects without programming, there are even toys that use simplistic versions of this technology. Maybe not in our lifetime, but within 3 generations I bet we will have that ability to make a mechanical mind as advanced as a human.

stillakid
05-05-2003, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Maybe not in our lifetime, but within 3 generations I bet we will have that ability to make a mechanical mind as advanced as a human.

You know what I see happening prior to that?...we will grasp the basic concepts of cellular reproduction so well that we will create a man-made organic biological "computer." In other words, a biological memory storage and processing unit. Instead of plugging your "computer" in, you'll have to feed it.:D

JON9000
05-05-2003, 09:15 AM
And what do they want to eat you ask? US!!!

stillakid
05-05-2003, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by JON9000
And what do they want to eat you ask? US!!!

SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!:eek:

TheDarthVader
06-04-2003, 05:29 PM
Do the individuals that think droid ownership is slavery believe that droids can think? Where here is a quote from AOTC that will shut that theory down.

Obi-Wan to Dexter, "Well, if droids could think, there'd be none of us here, would there?"

stillakid
06-04-2003, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
Do the individuals that think droid ownership is slavery believe that droids can think? Where here is a quote from AOTC that will shut that theory down.

Obi-Wan to Dexter, "Well, if droids could think, there'd be none of us here, would there?"

But is that a FACT in the Star Wars universe (droids don't think) or is it an example of "racism" (droidism) as we saw in the Cantina ("We don't serve their kind in here!") Perhaps Obi Wan isn't really keen on droids and chooses to not entertain the thought that machines can be independent and sentient beyond original programming.

Yes? No?

TheDarthVader
06-04-2003, 10:48 PM
Hmmm... :confused:

Daniel3160
06-20-2003, 07:03 PM
I have to say that in the advancement in the Star Wars universe they have been "people" for so long that human traits actually become part of them. Such as when in the torture room in Jabba's palace, the power droids feet are being burned or branded and he's sorta crying in pain. I think it is actuall more of trying to make them more "life" like. Used primarily to make us feel for them when they "feel". Not just like if someone kicks a rock and you say that poor rock.

stillakid
06-21-2003, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by Daniel3160
I have to say that in the advancement in the Star Wars universe they have been "people" for so long that human traits actually become part of them. Such as when in the torture room in Jabba's palace, the power droids feet are being burned or branded and he's sorta crying in pain. I think it is actuall more of trying to make them more "life" like. Used primarily to make us feel for them when they "feel". Not just like if someone kicks a rock and you say that poor rock.

I don't understand. Are you saying that the droids are programmed to respond to, what we would consider, a painful situation? Essentially, they wouldn't actually "feel" pain, rather it is an act that they have to put on? :confused:

Or are you saying that given enough time, an artificial computer can "become" more human in terms of experiencing emotion and sensory conditions?