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Sleeper6
04-26-2003, 06:33 PM
DARTH WINDU?

Is Mace Windu a traitor to the Jedi?

- His lightsaber blade is purple, a combination of blue (a standard light-side lightsaber color) and red (the standard Sith color). Samuel Jackson has been quoted as saying that this color distinction is significant. His lightsaber style is a very aggressive one, "bordering on the Dark Side," which he developed in conjunction with another Jedi who DID fall to the Dark Side.
- He was the one who led 200 Jedi to Geonosis, to be slaughtered by Dooku's Battle Droids (less than 20 survived the massacre). Why send 200 Jedi to rescue 2? He also refused to surrender to Dooku despite being impossibly outnumbered - if not for the intervention of Yoda and the clone army, the rest would likely have been wiped out as well.
- A Jedi erased the planet Kamino from the Jedi Archives - it would have to have been a highly-placed Jedi to have accomplished this with no one finding out.
- He was the Jedi to make the final decision on Anakin not being trained by the Jedi Council - was he saving him for Palpatine, or perhaps just thwarting the "chosen one" from his destiny?
- He ordered Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon to take Amidala back to Naboo, where Darth Maul was waiting for them - was he sending them to their deaths to get Qui-Gon out of the way?
- He sent Anakin to Palpatine to request him to convince Amidala to leave the capital - leaving the path clear for Palpatine to manipulate the adleminded Jar-jar into proposing emergency powers for the Chancellor.
- He defends Dooku to Amidala, saying that despite his leaving the Jedi Order, assassination is "not in his character" - despite evidence that Dooku is bringing the galaxy to the brink of war. He also looks very pensive at the end of the conversation, as if he is hiding something. Dooku often calls him "my old Jedi friend" is it possible they are still working together?
- He wanted to reveal to the Senate that the Jedi's foresight was being clouded by the Dark Side- as Yoda says, this will (obviously) have disasterous consequences if the galaxy were to learn this.
- He personally Killed Jango Fett during the Geonosis battle - Fett was the only person who could have connected Dooku to the Kamino Cloners, and knew him as Darth Tyrannus. This occured after Kenobi found out about Fett and the clone army, and reported those findings to Windu and Yoda.
- The clone army was ordered by Jedi Master Sifo Dias - but was ordered after Dias had been killed. Was it Windu who ordered it in his name? He is very quick to deny Obi-Wan's question as to whether the Jedi was involved in the procurement of the clone army. It's also possible that Sifo Dias was assassinated in order to accomplish this, a task which would have been very difficult for a non-Jedi.
- Lucas has hinted that one of the Jedi would betray the rest - most assume that this was Anakin, but perhaps he was referring to someone else?

Pendo
04-27-2003, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by Sleeper6
- His lightsaber blade is purple, a combination of blue (a standard light-side lightsaber color) and red (the standard Sith color). Samuel Jackson has been quoted as saying that this color distinction is significant. His lightsaber style is a very aggressive one, "bordering on the Dark Side," which he developed in conjunction with another Jedi who DID fall to the Dark Side.

If a purple lightsaber symbolises a traitor I doubt Windu would be stupid enough to use it. As soon as a Jedi sees it there would be some suspicions.


Originally posted by Sleeper6
- He was the one who led 200 Jedi to Geonosis, to be slaughtered by Dooku's Battle Droids (less than 20 survived the massacre). Why send 200 Jedi to rescue 2? He also refused to surrender to Dooku despite being impossibly outnumbered - if not for the intervention of Yoda and the clone army, the rest would likely have been wiped out as well.

He took 200 Jedi because he knew there was a droid army there, plus probably knew that the Geonosins were fighters too. He knew the Trade Federation, Commerce Guild and Banking Clan were all there so probably had a strong, powerful army. I doubt 2 Jedi could rescue Obi-Wan (they didn't even know Anakin and Padmé where there).
Mace Windu is a Jedi, he would never surrender to the dark side. He is a hero, that's why he didn't surrender. He, and the other Jedi, would have been prepared to die.


Originally posted by Sleeper6
- A Jedi erased the planet Kamino from the Jedi Archives - it would have to have been a highly-placed Jedi to have accomplished this with no one finding out.

It could have been Dooku, or Sifo-Dyas (he was once on the council).


Originally posted by Sleeper6
- He was the Jedi to make the final decision on Anakin not being trained by the Jedi Council - was he saving him for Palpatine, or perhaps just thwarting the "chosen one" from his destiny?

He wasn't the only one who thought he shouldn't be trained. Yoda and Ki-Adi-Mundi also had their concerns, as well as other members of the council. It wasn't Mace's decision (although he may have agreed) for Anakin not to be trained, it was the decision of the council.


Originally posted by Sleeper6
- He ordered Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon to take Amidala back to Naboo, where Darth Maul was waiting for them - was he sending them to their deaths to get Qui-Gon out of the way?

Mace did not known that Maul was there! Plus he was sending them back to protect Amidala, she was going back anyway so would have been killed/captured by Maul if the Jedi weren't there.


Originally posted by Sleeper6
- He sent Anakin to Palpatine to request him to convince Amidala to leave the capital - leaving the path clear for Palpatine to manipulate the adleminded Jar-jar into proposing emergency powers for the Chancellor.

Mace doesn't know that Palpatine is a bad guy, plus he didn't know that Padmé was going to leave Jar Jar in charge.


Originally posted by Sleeper6
- He defends Dooku to Amidala, saying that despite his leaving the Jedi Order, assassination is "not in his character" - despite evidence that Dooku is bringing the galaxy to the brink of war. He also looks very pensive at the end of the conversation, as if he is hiding something. Dooku often calls him "my old Jedi friend" is it possible they are still working together?

There was no evidence that Dooku was bringing the galaxy to the brink of war. They probably knew Dooku was creating a separatist movement, but had no idea that he would be creating an army to conquer the Republic. As far as Mace knew, Dooku was still a good guy, still a believer in the Jedi Order, and would not assassinate someone.
If Dooku and Mace were working together that wouldn't be "Old Friends". Dooku is merely stating that they were friends long time ago.


Originally posted by Sleeper6
- He wanted to reveal to the Senate that the Jedi's foresight was being clouded by the Dark Side- as Yoda says, this will (obviously) have disasterous consequences if the galaxy were to learn this.

Windu just hadn't thought of the consequences. If he really wanted their enemies to multiply then he would have told the senate himself, and not told Yoda, who would obviously think of the consequence and stop it.


Originally posted by Sleeper6
- He personally Killed Jango Fett during the Geonosis battle - Fett was the only person who could have connected Dooku to the Kamino Cloners, and knew him as Darth Tyrannus. This occured after Kenobi found out about Fett and the clone army, and reported those findings to Windu and Yoda.

Jango Fett was fighting for Dooku and probably would have known Mace was one of them, so probably wouldn't have attacked. If he didn't know and still attacked Mace probably wouldn't have killed him because they need him for the clone army. Just because Jango knows of Tyranus and the Clone army doesn't mean he had to get rid of him.


Originally posted by Sleeper6
- The clone army was ordered by Jedi Master Sifo Dias - but was ordered after Dias had been killed. Was it Windu who ordered it in his name? He is very quick to deny Obi-Wan's question as to whether the Jedi was involved in the procurement of the clone army. It's also possible that Sifo Dias was assassinated in order to accomplish this, a task which would have been very difficult for a non-Jedi.

Dooku was a Jedi, Palpatine is a sith. They could have very easily taken out Dyas. Windu was probably quick to deny the Jedi had anything to do with it, because he probably didn't think they did (which they didn't).


Originally posted by Sleeper6
- Lucas has hinted that one of the Jedi would betray the rest - most assume that this was Anakin, but perhaps he was referring to someone else?

He may have been referring to Dooku. He was a Jedi, and he betrayed the other Jedi.

I think there is a possibility of a traitor in the Jedi Council, but only for the reason that there was a poll on StarWars.com which asked people if they thought there was a traitor. I think Mace is probably the person that everyone will be looking at, we know it's not Yoda, and Mace is the other in the Council that is known just as well, however I don't think there is enough evidence to convict Mace yet, and I especially don't think any of the points you said are enough to say he is a traitor.

PENDO!

Tonysmo
04-27-2003, 07:00 AM
THANKS PENDO!! THANKS for shooting those great points all to hell!


and that is ALL sarcasim..


seriously great points - great counter points!

The 'Xir
04-28-2003, 01:49 PM
The Only "real" reason Mace's saber is purple is because that is Sam Jacksons' favorite color and asked George for it! I think that it is shown in the 'action' documentary on the dvd.

As far as the movie goes, you guys are right in that A Jedi is suppossed to betray the Jedi, we already know that Anakin will, and Dooku has, now wether another Jedi will, we'll have to wait and see; but this argument has gone back and forth for awhile now, and I am personally in favor of it! It would fit Jackson's stereotypical roles as the 'bad-arse mudda-fudda' rolls he has been typecast as in Hollywood!
Also, the official site asked a poll question not long ago about a suprise ending or does there need to be a shocking twist(something like that) and It was voted for in much favor, so it might be concievable that George would listen to the fans again, and create some twist like this! If he wanted to go in that direction, I don't think it would be that much of a stretch to write, seeing as there could be some scenes or events in the first two movies that could be construed as setups to a Windu betrayal! Also, it would make good fodder for Palpatine to use so Anakin would not further trust the Jedi, and help in turning him to the darkside!

keith koth
04-28-2003, 04:58 PM
I'm all for Sammy being a "bad guy". I too have always felt like he was close with the dark side. I would not be supprised at all if we see his true "dark" nature come to light in EIII.

Of course, I sort of feel the same way about Qui-Gon...but that is a another topic.

You know, I have said this before, but here goes...I'm sure GL was glad to have Sam Jackson come on board as one of the Jedis in his prequal trilogy; however, from day one Jackson has said that he always wanted to be a part of the SW saga (as he loved the original trilogy). With that being said, why would GL make an exception with S. Jackson and give him a purple saber just because he wanted it? Sammy was already "gung ho" about being a part of the prequals; therefore, there was no special "bargaining" that was required in order to persuade Sammy to become part of the prequals. Point being: GL is very selective about the elements he allows into his movies...so why would he give Sammy a purple saber if it had no signifigance to the movie? GL just wouldn't do it!

Of course that's just my opinion...I could be wrong.

TheDarthVader
04-28-2003, 09:11 PM
I do not know this...that is why I am asking... Is there not any other jedi (council or not) that carries a purple lightsaber?

Pendo
04-29-2003, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
I do not know this...that is why I am asking... Is there not any other jedi (council or not) that carries a purple lightsaber?

I don't think so. I always thought Mace's blade was purple because he was one of the highest members of the council, so gets a special l-saber blade.

PENDO!

TheDarthVader
04-29-2003, 07:17 PM
Interesting. Yes, in my AOTC pictorial view book it says that he uses this color (and his hilt) because of his rank in the jedi council.

keith koth
04-29-2003, 07:45 PM
Out of curiousity, do any of the other "highest" members of the Jedi Council have "special" lightsaber blade colors? They don't really show too much in the movies. Is there any mention of the saber blade colors for other council "high members" in any of the pictorial books for TPM or AOTC?

Darthvader7677
04-29-2003, 09:17 PM
I have heard some of the same things about mace beening a bad guy. Maybe he is and maybe he isn't. Either way is fine with me. I thought I heard that Samuel L. Jackson asked Lucas that his character be killed in a noble way. So maybe he is bad, but then decides to do the right thing. I guess we just have to wait like 715 days to find out.

jedihunter25
04-29-2003, 10:17 PM
Mace carries a purple lightsaber because he knows he's bad enough that he can (like Shaft). Although it would be great to see him slaping & throwing Yoda around asking "What's my name mother*@#ker, What's my name?"- MACE:D

Kidhuman
04-29-2003, 11:08 PM
Okay, seeing that mace was the only one to kill a human type character is odd. All the others killed by Jedi were Geonosians and droids. But at the same time, when he beheaded Jango, he looked down in disgust, like he betrayed himself by murdering. It was a self defense murder.

I don't want Mace to be a traitor. I think it would just set up a poor ending, to predictable. Like it was said already, just gonna have to wait the 700+ days for the new movie.

Brainiak76
05-01-2003, 02:42 AM
i think hes bad!! bad meaning evil that is..haha

i dunno the more i watch epII the more suspicious i get bout his character!! mace seems pretty shady in epII alot more then in ep1, almost the same way palpatines shadyness comes out, just not as much though! i dunno..will have to wait and see

TheDarthVader
05-01-2003, 02:26 PM
The POTJ Saesee Tiin came with a purple lightsaber. Don't know if that was accurate or not. Habro probably just got it wrong.

keith koth
05-01-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
The POTJ Saesee Tiin came with a purple lightsaber. Don't know if that was accurate or not. Habro probably just got it wrong.

Yeah, Hasbro gets alot of things wrong. I mean was Han's coat on Hoth blue or tan? They can't make up their friggin' minds so now we get both versions. :rolleyes:

Ki-Adi-Mundi's saber blade was purple in the E1 packaging.

Yoda has 3 toes on the E1 version and 4 toes on the E2 version. :crazed:

Mace Windu's saber was blue in the E1 packaging :confused: ...man the list just goes on and on.

I would not form any opinions about the characters in the movies based upon what Hasbro produces...

Brainiak76
05-01-2003, 05:33 PM
yeah hasbro isnt to movie accurate sometimes!! esp w/lightsaber colors!

Lord Malakite
05-02-2003, 02:26 AM
Of course Hasbro's choice of lightsaber colors weren't correct for the "Episode I" and "Power of the Jedi" toy lines. At the time of those figures' release, Lucas hadn't given those jedi official colored sabers yet. So Hasbro had to either come up with their own colors or base them on the colors given to those characters in the expanded universe (like Ki Adi Mundi's purple saber, based on the comics).

scruffziller
05-02-2003, 01:23 PM
Dang people just keep stealing my thunder. Especially when I got scolded for it by not being really clear in the EPS 3 spoilers room. I already brought up the notion of the color of his saber.

TheDarthVader
05-02-2003, 04:23 PM
Don't worry. I remembered that this had been brought up before. Take it easy. ;)

DewMan37
05-02-2003, 09:26 PM
Wow Pendo, you have a thing for Mace or something? ;)

Pendo
05-03-2003, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by DewMan37
Wow Pendo, you have a thing for Mace or something? ;)

LOL, it's not really Mace, but Mr. Bad A** Sam Jackson :p.

PENDO!

DewMan37
05-03-2003, 10:39 AM
Ahh, I see. :)

scruffziller
05-04-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
Don't worry. I remembered that this had been brought up before. Take it easy. ;)

It's cool buddy.:p

Pendo
05-11-2003, 05:24 PM
There is an interesting article at T'bone's Star Wars Universe about a possible traitor in the Jedi Council which is worth checking out.

http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/guest_editorials/drdave_traitor.htm

PENDO!

kool-aid killer
05-12-2003, 08:22 AM
Very interesting article, Pendo. Thanks for the link.

TheDarthVader
05-12-2003, 01:25 PM
Good article, I read the whole thing. It sounds good to me, and I like the ideas he has as to why Mace Windu probably will not be the traitor. Thanks for the link!

El Chuxter
05-12-2003, 01:45 PM
Back to the E1 lightsaber issue: Hasbro used what Lucasfilm had approved as the "official" lightsaber colors for all the Jedi from various sources. Thus Ki-Adi had purple, Saessee had blue-black, Adi Gallia had red. The same goes for the EU figures: Leia has a red saber, just like in the books. And it was very recently that all books portrayed Yoda carrying a yellow lightsaber. It's only in the past year or two that Lucas himself decided (or at least announced) that the appearance of only two colors in the films wasn't just happenstance. So the previous colors weren't "wrong" per se, they've just been changed.

Also, keep in mind that a Sith Lord has never been beaten by a blue saber. Also, the two Sith Lords who have been beaten were defeated by Jedi carrying green sabers after losing their blue sabers in bottomless pits.

In any case, if the color of the blades is so important, then it's not just chance that Windu carries the only purple saber--and the only one with a gold-trimmed hilt. Lucas is definitely going for some symbolism here, we just don't know what. . . yet. Purple and gold make me think royalty, but than again purple is between blue and red. . . .

The Overlord Returns
05-16-2003, 01:32 PM
I can't believe this idea is still going around.....

keith koth
05-16-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
I can't believe this idea is still going around.....

Why wouldn't it?

TheDarthVader
05-16-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by El Chuxter
Also, the two Sith Lords who have been beaten were defeated by Jedi carrying green sabers after losing their blue sabers in bottomless pits.
Good observation...I never thought of that before. Kenobi and Luke...both seem "beaten" and then *boom*, Kenobi uses the force and defeats maul and luke comes back to kick Vader butt in ROTJ. Cool. ;)

Jedi Clint
05-16-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
I can't believe this idea is still going around.....

Same here. It will probably continue well up into '05 though.

The Overlord Returns
05-20-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Same here. It will probably continue well up into '05 though.

You're right, unfortunately. I would really be upset with GL if he went with such an obvious ruse. I still think all this speculation has more to do with the actor playing Windu than the evidence people throw out to support the idea.

stad
06-16-2003, 01:04 AM
Actually, I seen it in several interviews where Sam Jackson had asked for a purple lightsaber so he could be more distinctive in a crowd of Jedi, and GL gave it to him. Not out of any bargaining, just a simple request. Of course there is going to be some Star Wars explanation of this in the lore, but it is there because of the purple lightsaber needs to be accounted for, not the other way around.

Also, I seen more recently where Jackson had asked that if he's killed, it's done by Vader. It's yet to be seen if Lucas will grant him that or not.