Bullets and Blasters

[stillakid]

So, if the "police" force of the Galaxy uses Lightsabers as their primary weapon and method for self-defense, why don't "criminals" use regular old-fashioned bullets to attack?

Take a look at how easily the Jedi deflect the relatively slow barrage of laser bolts from assorted bad guys in the Prequels. Now what if somebody opened up on a Jedi with a Gattling Gun. No contest. The Jedi would get cut to pieces, wouldn't they?

[The 'Xir]

I think technology would allow for faster repeaters in blasters than conventional hand guns seeing as nothing travels faster than light. You would just need a larger powercell in a handheld semi-automatic blaster to create enough power in such short bursts! However, look at the Doridekas! To my recognition they have shown the best close combat rapid fire ability! Now, I don't know how exactly they are suppossed to work, wether the firepower is produced within the "hand" guns or from their body powercell and travels down the long tubes connected to the guns; but two ways they could be faster or more effective is building the tubes within the arm structure allowing for a shorter distance the light/energy would have to travel, and or making each bolt fire seperately from each side than together as they do! If it was programmed/timed right they'd be able to fire 4 shots at different times all within milliseconds of each other, making it extremely difficult for the Jedi!

[TheDarthVader]

I would have to agree with you. If the criminals used, say an uzi or machine gun, the jedi would be quickly cut down. I do not see even the best lightsaber weilders defending themselves against a multitude of bullets flying ferociously toward him/her. He/she would have no chance, in my opinon. But at the same time, because the criminals were using this type of weapon, would the jedi adapt and stop using lightsabers and switch to some kind of new defensive/offensive weapon to stop the bullets? I could not imagine what it could be. Maybe something that projects a circle of "pure energy" around them? I don't know...that would not seem to be much of an offensive weapon though.

[LTBasker]

I dunno, look at it this way, Anakin was able to podrace because he saw things before they happened. Now let's take the Matrix's "bullet time", mix that in with force sense and force speed, and they could easily use the force to repell some of the rounds, while their lightsaber desintegrates (sp?) the rest. Yeah if you snuck up on a Jedi or surrounded them, maybe then you could "cut'em up" with an Uzi, but one or two guns vs. the Jedi, nah the Jedi would still prevail depending on their skill. I just hope for E3 Lucas doesn't use the Matrix stuff to show Jedi dodging blaster bolts and whatnot. :p

I know the question comes up as to why they don't just deflect blaster bolts with the force, well it's likely much easier to do it with lightsaber training because then they can more force power to do tricks and whatnot.

[JediTricks]

With the speed and accuracy shown by the Jedi in the prequels for dispensing with blaster bolts, slug-throwers would be even easier to deal with using just the lightsaber and their Jedi training because the bullets would move slower; that's not including the possibility of blocking or diverting the bullets using the Force itself or pulling the gun from the user's hand before the first bullet even leaves the chamber. There are some slug-throwers shown in Ep 1, but they're long-range rifles used by primatives.

[dr_evazan22]

Maybe the Stormie's need to convert their blasters back to MG42's and Sterling's :)

[Tonysmo]

while real bullets may cause some damage, I dont think they'd stop a Jedi. I do think from the originals and even EP1 that the rate of fire from Jango and his ship in EP2 were far far greater... I do hope they keep that up.. even with the gun ships.. we never really saw a sustained laser shot from anything other than the Death Star..

[Exhaust Port]

For small engagements the ballistic weapon would work. You'd think assassins would use this type of weapon for the reasons mentioned above.

Beyond the small engagements the ballistic weapon runs into its biggest drawback. Ammunition. Energy weapons don't have the ammunition limitation freeing up the user/soldier to be more free range and not tied to a supply chain. The Empire/Republic would rely on the energy weapon due to the scale of their operation. Ballistic weapons would be limited to large assults and large caliber. A tank with a large cannon would make sense as it could transport its own ammunition within its own vehicle.

Actually in the scale of the society, the fact that it runs the length of an entire galaxy, ballistic weapons make very little sense. If your a traveler, a weapon that would need ammo replacement wouldn't be very useful. Trying to find ammo would be tough, finding the right ammo would be even tougher. Even if you would only require the materials to create your own ammo those aren't a guarantee either on the multitude of planets you could find yourself on.

It could be that ballistic weapons are recognized as being very successful weapons but the high number of limitations/accessability issues just makes them impractical. Similar to nuclear weapons for us. We all know they would take care of any foe that opposed you but they aren't too user friendly. They're tough to get, tough to build and tough to find materials for.

[keith koth]

I know that a laser bolt is suppose to moves faster than a bullet; however, when one shoots a bullet, it travels at such a velocity that the naked eye can not see it move from point A to point B...but when a laser bolt is shot, you see it travel the entire distance between A & B. So, maybe according to the physics of the SW universe, lead travels faster than light! :crazed:

[stillakid]

For what it's worth, I simply don't see any skilled Jedi being able to "use the Force" to dodge or deflect a barrage of bullets. What is the bullets per second count from a machine gun? 10? 20? 50? I honestly don't know. But whatever it is, based on the way the Jedi cut and run whenever faced with a high frequency of blaster bolts coming at them, there's no way in heck they could slice and dice their way free of this kind of weapon.

Not to mention that the shield technology in this universe seems to be only functional when faced with energy type weapons. Take the Naboo battle for instance. The lasers bounced off that shield like gnats on my windshield, but the solid objects passed through relatively easily. The proton torpedo flew right through the energy shield on the Death Star. Several types of large ordnance was used on Geonosis. The gunships themselves were equipped with rockets. So the use of non-energy weapons was widespread anyway. Why use energy weapons against a foe that uses a lightsaber?

[keith koth]

Originally posted by stillakid
. What is the bullets per second count from a machine gun? 10? 20? 50?

I know that there are "military issue" weapons that can fire several hundred (300-400) rounds per minute. It may go even higher than that!

UPDATE: The Army's M-240 Machine Gun can fire between 600-900 rounds per minute depending upon the setting!

WOW, here is an link to a story from a "credible" news source that claims an Australian man has invented a gun and demonstrated it...and get this...it fires over 1 Million rounds per minute! Check it out. There are many other articles about this same gun floating around the web.

http://www.dartreview.com/archives/000006.php

[TheDarthVader]

That is interesting Keith Koth. Stillakid, I agree with you 100%. There is no way a jedi could survive, say, a twenty minute barrage of bullets.

[LTBasker]

I think a Jedi definitely could, I mean a Jedi can dodge debris being thrown/shot at him, and that's all a bullet is. Here:



Jedi-> O//~~| = - _
//| | ~~|- - _
//\\~~|= -


See? All they have to do is concentrate to set up a force field in which the rounds cannot penetrate, kinda like in the Matrix. Yeah I know the Matrix is a different movie, but technically the Jedi could stop bullets like that using the force. We've seen Vader throwing debris, Dooku throw debris and Yoda stop debris, even tiny pieces, no reason a Jedi couldn't just put up a block from tiny little rounds. Heck, a Jedi would probably just crush the barrel of the gun with the force.

Btw, keith, a gun could but it wouldn't. You see if they did that, the gun would over heat, also theres no way that a gun would be fully accurate like that if you're going full auto. That gives a Jedi even more of an advantage. Guns aren't super-duper killing machines that'll fire on the same spot everytime in full auto without problems..

I suspect that the reason why a Jedi can't just easily repell blaster bolts with the force is because theres not as much to latch onto as there is with a bullet round.


Where does it say that a blaster bolt travels faster than light anyways? It doesn't have a propulsion system people. It's launched, just because it's made of light, doesn't mean it's faster than light.


Btw, Stilla, the proton torp on the Death Star didn't pass anything, they were already beyond the barrier, or are you talking about in the DSII? If that's what you're talking about, then the shields were failing anyways, it's likely that shield was weakened and the torpedo was able to knock it out. Since there were multiple torpedos, the blast likely was still able to take out the target since the shield couldn't absorb it.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by LTBasker
I think a Jedi definitely could, I mean a Jedi can dodge debris being thrown/shot at him, and that's all a bullet is. Here:



Jedi-> O//~~| = - _
//| | ~~|- - _
//\\~~|= -


See? All they have to do is concentrate to set up a force field in which the rounds cannot penetrate, kinda like in the Matrix. Yeah I know the Matrix is a different movie, but technically the Jedi could stop bullets like that using the force. We've seen Vader throwing debris, Dooku throw debris and Yoda stop debris, even tiny pieces, no reason a Jedi couldn't just put up a block from tiny little rounds. Heck, a Jedi would probably just crush the barrel of the gun with the force.

Not a chance. Take another look at all the times a Jedi uses the Force to move something. Save for one instance in ESB when Vader is "throwing" things at Luke, the strain and effort is very evident. In AOTC, it takes a significant "effort" for Obi to open the door on Kamino. Yoda is always straining to either move something or hold it up. Anakin has a pretty light and easy time floating that Kumquat around, but it isn't attacking him either. In fact, when Yoda had to "hold" that big thing up in the air before is squashed Obi and Ani, Dooku could have easily "dropped" more of the ceiling and killed them all.

No, for story convenience I presume, a Jedi has only one thing thrown at him at a time and is given ample time to deflect it. If faced with 300 rounds per second per weapon pointed at him, it just isn't going to happen. One droid or alien with an uzi might get his barrel squashed, but an army wielding M-16's, AK-47's, or Gattling Guns would make short work out of even the most adept Jedi.



Originally posted by LTBasker
Btw, Stilla, the proton torp on the Death Star didn't pass anything, they were already beyond the barrier, or are you talking about in the DSII? If that's what you're talking about, then the shields were failing anyways, it's likely that shield was weakened and the torpedo was able to knock it out. Since there were multiple torpedos, the blast likely was still able to take out the target since the shield couldn't absorb it.

"The port is ray-shielded, so you'll have to use proton torpedos." I believe that was the line from ANH, so the port itself had an energy shield to protect it from blasters. Which, now that I think of it, would be a silly way to attack that anyway, being that they needed a "weapon" that would carry itself down to the core of the Death Star and explode. A "laser" wouldn't do that.


It also occurred to me that the power you seem to be talking about belongs to Magneto from X-Men. That guy can do anything with the simple wave of a hand, whereas the Jedi really seem to have to put some honest ooomph into it.

[keith koth]

Originally posted by LTBasker
Btw, keith, a gun could but it wouldn't. You see if they did that, the gun would over heat, also theres no way that a gun would be fully accurate like that if you're going full auto. That gives a Jedi even more of an advantage. Guns aren't super-duper killing machines that'll fire on the same spot everytime in full auto without problems..

There are composite alloys that circumvent the heat issue. Also, when you are firing a "laser" of lead (a.k.a. 1 million rounds per minute), "dead on" accuracy of the weapon is not so important. Even if half the bullets miss their mark, at that rate, the job will still get done.


Originally posted by LTBasker
Where does it say that a blaster bolt travels faster than light anyways? It doesn't have a propulsion system people. It's launched, just because it's made of light, doesn't mean it's faster than light.

Who said that laser bolts from blasters move faster than light? Although not faster than light, laser bolts must at least travel at or near the speed of light, as laser bolts are made up of light. Light does not need a propulsion system...it is what it is! Once light has been initiated, it travels at it's "natural" velocity.

:)

[LTBasker]

Originally posted by stillakid
Not a chance. Take another look at all the times a Jedi uses the Force to move something. Save for one instance in ESB when Vader is "throwing" things at Luke, the strain and effort is very evident. In AOTC, it takes a significant "effort" for Obi to open the door on Kamino. Yoda is always straining to either move something or hold it up. Anakin has a pretty light and easy time floating that Kumquat around, but it isn't attacking him either. In fact, when Yoda had to "hold" that big thing up in the air before is squashed Obi and Ani, Dooku could have easily "dropped" more of the ceiling and killed them all.

Uh... are you sure we've watched the same movies? Vader wasn't straining, he was just standing there dude. Obi didn't strain at the door either, he just had to concentrate, he obviously wasn't familiar with the door's mechanism, so he had to overcome that. Yoda usually has to strain because he's an old one, I mean if he doesn't use the force for moving (IE jumping around during duels) he has to use a cane. Dooku wanted to get the heck out of there, he was obviously drained from DUELING with a hoppy shrimp after exerting some of his force power earlier between Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin. He just wanted to get the heck outta there.


Originally posted by stillakid
No, for story convenience I presume, a Jedi has only one thing thrown at him at a time and is given ample time to deflect it. If faced with 300 rounds per second per weapon pointed at him, it just isn't going to happen. One droid or alien with an uzi might get his barrel squashed, but an army wielding M-16's, AK-47's, or Gattling Guns would make short work out of even the most adept Jedi.

Who says they had to grip every single one individually? They merely have to put a force barrier around them to either deflect or stop the bullets. As for an army wielding M-16's, AK-47's or Gattling guns, well all a Jedi would really have to do is use the force to screw up the firing systems of the guns, like taking out the spring systems.


Originally posted by stillakid
"The port is ray-shielded, so you'll have to use proton torpedos." I believe that was the line from ANH, so the port itself had an energy shield to protect it from blasters. Which, now that I think of it, would be a silly way to attack that anyway, being that they needed a "weapon" that would carry itself down to the core of the Death Star and explode. A "laser" wouldn't do that.

Well rays and a full fledged energy shield would actually be quite different. See rays are usually many, instead of just one shield. So this sounds like it would've either been pulsating in intervals or had holes in the grid, possibly too small for a blaster cannon to be effective. The actual thing they were doing though was sending a chain reaction to the core, not the proton torpedo. Kinda like lighting a fuse to a firework. Obviously blaster cannons wouldn't of had enough destructive force to cause such an effect anyways, but they likely added that so that they would definitely remember they can't waste their proton torpedos on other targets.


Originally posted by stillakid
It also occurred to me that the power you seem to be talking about belongs to Magneto from X-Men. That guy can do anything with the simple wave of a hand, whereas the Jedi really seem to have to put some honest ooomph into it.

Nah, though that is a good example. You see Magneto could only grab on to metallic objects, not something that was plastic, ceramic, etc. but a Jedi would definitely be able to tap into that amount of power if they were trained in the Jedi arts enough. You see what we've seen in the movies is only a sampling of what there could be, obviously it would really detract from the plots of the story to show everything a Jedi could do for no reason.


Originally posted by keith koth
There are composite alloys that circumvent the heat issue. Also, when you are firing a "laser" of lead (a.k.a. 1 million rounds per minute), "dead on" accuracy of the weapon is not so important. Even if half the bullets miss their mark, at that rate, the job will still get done.

Eventually the heat will cause a defect in the gun if you fire non-stop. As for the accuracy issue, no, that's definitely still an underestimation of the shooting. You see the gun jerks around, and it would take extreme muscle to keep it even near accurate, just an inch off could mean that it could go a foot to the side depending on the distance. If you auto-fired millions of rounds, then you'd be facing some heat from the gun, and also several pounds of force pushing against your arm.


Originally posted by keith koth
Who said that laser bolts from blasters move faster than light? Although not faster than light, laser bolts must at least travel at or near the speed of light, as laser bolts are made up of light. Light does not need a propulsion system...it is what it is! Once light has been initiated, it travels at it's "natural" velocity.

Faster or as fast it's still ridiculous. Just because a lightbulb glows doesn't mean it can be launched at the speed of light. You see the blaster bolts just because they are made of lasers, doesn't mean they travel at the speed of light. Because the laser obviously isn't in a housing anymore, it's a bolt, it's travelling at it's own speed when it leaves a gun. If it were like a phaser then yes it would be at the speed of light, but it's not so it has to be 'thrown' from the gun, this is why it doesn't move at the speed of light. It goes pretty frickin fast, but not that fast. If it did then Jango should've been able to shoot those Jedi before they even got a feeling he was gonna shoot.

[keith koth]

All of the Jedi who died on Geonosis were SHOT with blasters...so clearly there is a rate at which even a Jedi can not deflect objects...whether they be solid or laser! Jedi are NOT almighty beings that only die at the blade of a lightsaber!

[LTBasker]

As I said earlier, a bullet and a blaster bolt are quite different and are probably harder to concentrate on because theres not as much matter in a blaster bolt. Also the Jedi were surrounded by waves and waves of Droids and they seem to have been reserving their force powers, so obviously there would be casualties. Also alot of those shots could've been at point blank or snipes, we didn't see how they were shot. If a Jedi were over taken all around by waves and waves of soldiers with guns, then yes they would likely be over taken if the soldiers were all experianced enough. However from the way this debate has played out, we've been talking about if they were to go head on, facing each other, which would give the Jedi a huge advantage.

As for Colemen Trebor, Jango was pretty close on the balcony.

I know Jedi aren't all powerful beings, but we definitely have not seen the full amount of power they can muster, we've only seen measured samples of what they can do, because they are very stingy about using alot of force power at once.

[keith koth]

Originally posted by LTBasker
Eventually the heat will cause a defect in the gun if you fire non-stop.

The term "eventually" is subjective. Exactly how long is "eventually"? 1 minute? 5 minutes? 1 day? There are many composite alloys that are poor conductors of heat; actually, there are composites that conduct no heat...meaning that the heat issue would be null. Also, how long can a Jedi stave off an assualt from a fire arm of such magnitude? They must wear down at some point!


Originally posted by LTBasker
As for the accuracy issue, no, that's definitely still an underestimation of the shooting. You see the gun jerks around, and it would take extreme muscle to keep it even near accurate, just an inch off could mean that it could go a foot to the side depending on the distance.

Problem easily solved with a gun mounted on a turret...possibly mounted to a "super" droid weighing several tons (taking into account the weight of the projectiles). Even if the gun jerked around a little, 1,000,000 rounds per minute would easily cover a wide area...including any area where a Jedi might be situated.


Originally posted by LTBasker
If you auto-fired millions of rounds, then you'd be facing some heat from the gun, and also several pounds of force pushing against your arm.

Problem easily solved by wearing heat resistant gear or if the weapon was incorporated into some type of battle droid as suggested above. Force against one's arm would be inconsequential if the weapon was mounted as suggested above.


Originally posted by LTBasker
I know Jedi aren't all powerful beings, but we definitely have not seen the full amount of power they can muster, we've only seen measured samples of what they can do, because they are very stingy about using alot of force power at once.

How do we know that we have not seen the full ammount of power that a Jedi can muster? I would say that at the moment they were surrounded in the Geonosis Arena and seeing most of their Jedi colleagues laying mortally wounded in the center of the arena, the Jedi would recognize the dire circumstances they had suddenly become engulfed in. At that moment (a do or die situation), I suspect that the Jedi would have "let loose" with every bit of force power in their beings. So, I think yes...we have seen the Jedi at their most powerful.

Of course that is just my opinion...I could be wrong.

:happy:

[LTBasker]

Originally posted by keith koth
The term "eventually" is subjective. Exactly how long is "eventually"? 1 minute? 5 minutes? 1 day? There are many composite alloys that are poor conductors of heat; actually, there are composites that conduct no heat...meaning that the heat issue would be null. Also, how long can a Jedi stave off an assualt from a fire arm of such magnitude? They must wear down at some point!

Eventually, meaning they can fire so many rounds before it heats up or heck, it'd likely jam before they got anywhere near a million rounds. Even conventional guns today that are carefully used easily jam. I don't know the specifics of where it would heat up, because we're just talking an adverage machine gun. But I know that if the gattling gun on the A-10 Thunderbolt would heat up during an auto-fire, then a machine gun operated by a human would heat up eventually as well. The thing's on a plane, I think they'd be able to come up with some top secret heat reducer, but it still can get overheated.


Originally posted by keith koth
Problem easily solved with a gun mounted on a turret...possibly mounted to a "super" droid weighing several tons (taking into account the weight of the projectiles). Even if the gun jerked around a little, 1,000,000 rounds per minute would easily cover a wide area...including any area where a Jedi might be situated.

Make up your mind dude, are they gonna be assualt rifles/sub-MG's/personal machine guns or turret machine guns??

If it was a manned turret like on a jeep or a tank, it's still gonna jerk around because it's the inner gun getting pushed, and it's gonna push against the person's strength.

A "Super Droid" would definitely most likely take out a Jedi, because it'd probably have fighter quality machine guns. WAAAY different than a M-16 and AK-47.


Originally posted by keith koth
Problem easily solved by wearing heat resistant gear or if the weapon was incorporated into some type of battle droid as suggested above. Force against one's arm would be inconsequential if the weapon was mounted as suggested above.

More gear means less movement, it's unlikely a soldier would wear such a gear in combat, they'd be easy targets because that would likely be bulky. A Battle Droid would likely be resistant to it, and be able to hold the gun, however a Droid would just auto-fire and have less response time. The Jedi could just take it out easily by using the force to confuse it's computer using force speed.


Originally posted by keith koth
Of course that is just my opinion...I could be wrong. :happy:

Heavens forbid the possibility that someone else is right. :happy:

[stillakid]

There are no "jedi force fields." Not sure where that line of defense was concocted from.

As specifically stated before, every Jedi except for one instance with Vader has to significantly struggle to use the Force to do anything more difficult than lift a Kumquat while putting the moves on a chick. In the Vader instance, we can't see his face so it's quite possible that he did have a grimmace behind the mask.

A Jedi getting fired upon who also has to "concentrate" to use the super-power can't "deconstruct" a weapon by, what was it, remove the springs? Huh?

Wow, with every tiny little issue, I'm convinced that there are different versions of these films out there. :sur:

[James Boba Fettfield]

I'm going to agree, it's not like the Jedi can bend everything to their will without limitations. That's Neo from the Matrix, not anything out of Star Wars.

[keith koth]

Originally posted by LTBasker
Eventually, meaning they can fire so many rounds before it heats up or heck, it'd likely jam before they got anywhere near a million rounds. Even conventional guns today that are carefully used easily jam. I don't know the specifics of where it would heat up, because we're just talking an adverage machine gun. But I know that if the gattling gun on the A-10 Thunderbolt would heat up during an auto-fire, then a machine gun operated by a human would heat up eventually as well. The thing's on a plane, I think they'd be able to come up with some top secret heat reducer, but it still can get overheated.

Okay dude...but still, how long exactly is "eventually"? At least give me an estimated time. Secondly, did you even bother to read the article that I posted a link to on page 1? The article clearly states that this new type of gun was designed without moving parts, which removes the possibility of "jamming" and "over heating". This time please go read the article before making assumptions.


Originally posted by LTBasker
Make up your mind dude, are they gonna be assualt rifles/sub-MG's/personal machine guns or turret machine guns??

They can be any type of "conventional" weapon. No one here ever said that it had to be a specific type of gun. The topic we are discussing is BULLETS VS. BLASTERS. And I am saying that Bullets would get the job done much better than a blaster. It doesn't matter what type of gun fires those bullets.


Originally posted by LTBasker
If it was a manned turret like on a jeep or a tank, it's still gonna jerk around because it's the inner gun getting pushed, and it's gonna push against the person's strength.

Yeah, so it jerks a little...it is still going to be firing a "wall" of bullets at and around it's intended target. Do you realize how much 1,000,000 bullets per minute is? That is like 16,667 bullets per second. If guns that massive were not at least partly/mostly accurate, then why would the military invest money into them?


Originally posted by LTBasker
A "Super Droid" would definitely most likely take out a Jedi, because it'd probably have fighter quality machine guns. WAAAY different than a M-16 and AK-47.

I agree, but I never even mentioned an AK-47 or the M-16. I am specifically talking about the Metal Storm Gun, which has the capability to fire over 1,000,000 rounds per minute.


Originally posted by LTBasker
More gear means less movement, it's unlikely a soldier would wear such a gear in combat, they'd be easy targets because that would likely be bulky. A Battle Droid would likely be resistant to it, and be able to hold the gun, however a Droid would just auto-fire and have less response time. The Jedi could just take it out easily by using the force to confuse it's computer using force speed.

How heavy do you think heat resistant gear would be? Currently US troops carry between 80-120 pounds of gear while in combat. I would think that heat resistant gear would weigh no more than 30-40 pounds, but even if it weighed 120 pounds, it would still be within the opperational limits of combat.


Originally posted by LTBasker
Heavens forbid the possibility that someone else is right. :happy:

Hey, you are the one who challanged my statements. I am just defending my position. Am I suppose to just give in and accept your idea...just because you want me to? Besides, you have not given any solid evidence to back your side of the arguement. You continue to use subjective terms such as "eventually". You are basing your arguement on the assumption that the Jedi have only shown a "glimpse" of their total power, on the assumption that the gun I describe (Metal Storm) is entirely inaccurate, on the assumption that heat resistant gear would be too heavy and laborious for use in combat, etc. Perhaps you should step back, think for a moment, and then provide a logical arguement with "soild" evidence to back up your statements. Otherwise, the statement above should apply to you: Heavens forbid the possibility that someone else is right.

:happy:

[LTBasker]

Originally posted by stillakid
There are no "jedi force fields." Not sure where that line of defense was concocted from.

And you know this because you're Lucas? I don't know if there are, but these would not be impossible. They obviously have to construct a field to grab something, why would it be so impossible that they could just have a stationary field to block something? :)


Originally posted by stillakid
As specifically stated before, every Jedi except for one instance with Vader has to significantly struggle to use the Force to do anything more difficult than lift a Kumquat while putting the moves on a chick. In the Vader instance, we can't see his face so it's quite possible that he did have a grimmace behind the mask.


When did they struggle? From what I saw they were just concentrating, struggling is usuaully accompanied with "HEEAAAVEE". :D Luke was struggling, Anakin was struggling during the duel, Dooku was struggling during the duel and Yoda struggled cause he's an old guy, from what I could see they were not struggling in those instances you claim they were, except for Yoda of course. When 800 some years you reach, be as flexible you will not. :p Are you basing that off of anything or is that just personal skepticism that the force isn't very powerful, nor a Jedi?


Originally posted by stillakid
A Jedi getting fired upon who also has to "concentrate" to use the super-power can't "deconstruct" a weapon by, what was it, remove the springs? Huh?

Who said they were fired upon while doing that? I said they could do mess with the springs, I didn't say anything about them being under fire when they do it. On that one machine gun, evidently there are no springs, but there is obviously some part in that could be tampered with, like the rod that fires the bullet. The Jedi could use the force to seperate it from what charges the rod. I don't know if that could actually be done of course, because there were no specifics on the connections and such inside the gun itself, so nobody except them knows how it looks inside the gun.


Originally posted by stillakid
Wow, with every tiny little issue, I'm convinced that there are different versions of these films out there.

Yeah, I swear I saw a version of ANH that had a pathetic lookin Jabba in it! :confused:


Originally posted by keith koth
Okay dude...but still, how long exactly is "eventually"? At least give me an estimated time. Secondly, did you even bother to read the article that I posted a link to on page 1? The article clearly states that this new type of gun was designed without moving parts, which removes the possibility of "jamming" and "over heating". This time please go read the article before making assumptions.

I don't know. I don't know full gun specifics, I just figured it was common sense that something could not shoot 1,000,000 rounds in one minute without a problem. It's physically impossible. Not too mention theres supply, who the heck is gonna be carrying around a box of a 1,000,000 round ammo belt? That's gonna be quite a target.. I mean it sounds like if you were to hit a supply package with the ammo belt, it'd go up pretty easily.

I hadn't read that article before, I just got done with it. It's doubtful. Yeah, that may true the PROTOTYPE could work, but what about if it were run into production? Obviously prototypes have to be modified to use simpler parts for production, that's where a big problem lies. You know all a Jedi has to do is hold a force shield for one minute, concentrating on one specific area, and then he's free. True there is the law about how seconds can seem like hours, however if a Jedi held it's force on reserve, and used it for that, it would likely be able to.

They did not say full specifics of the gun, they only stated how it would work. Now obviously the funds they had were different than Goverment funds, because it was a private invention. They didn't say wether or not it was built to just barely be able to work perfectly, wether it could only work with these materials, or if it could be stretched to be redesigned to work with simpler materials. There are little cold hard facts about it, so you're just assuming it's a super gun.


Originally posted by keith koth
They can be any type of "conventional" weapon. No one here ever said that it had to be a specific type of gun. The topic we are discussing is BULLETS VS. BLASTERS. And I am saying that Bullets would get the job done much better than a blaster. It doesn't matter what type of gun fires those bullets.

Sorry, it was Stilla that had suggest specific weaponry, or do you not read every post?... Then again you two really sound alike so it'd be easy to get the posts confused. ;)

Actually it does matter what type of gun fires those bullets. See that's a lack of oversight, obviously a personal rifle, machine gun or sub machine gun isn't gonna be as powerful as let's say.. an A-10 Thunderbolt's gattling gun, or some super turret mounted on a droid.


Originally posted by keith koth
Yeah, so it jerks a little...it is still going to be firing a "wall" of bullets at and around it's intended target. Do you realize how much 1,000,000 bullets per minute is? That is like 16,667 bullets per second. If guns that massive were not at least partly/mostly accurate, then why would the military invest money into them?

No how much is 1,000,000 bullets per minute? 40? Look, your arguments have been around the gun firing for a whole minute. So 16,667 a second is gonna be little difference, because the whole barrage is going to be coming. As I stated, a Jedi would only need to whole a shield for a minute, can they do that? I don't know, I'm assuming they can based on facts. You're assuming they can't based on skepticism.


Originally posted by keith koth
I agree, but I never even mentioned an AK-47 or the M-16. I am specifically talking about the Metal Storm Gun, which has the capability to fire over 1,000,000 rounds per minute.


Originally posted by stillakid
No, for story convenience I presume, a Jedi has only one thing thrown at him at a time and is given ample time to deflect it. If faced with 300 rounds per second per weapon pointed at him, it just isn't going to happen. One droid or alien with an uzi might get his barrel squashed, but an army wielding M-16's, AK-47's, or Gattling Guns would make short work out of even the most adept Jedi.

You're right, as I said it was Stillakid, and I made a mistake. See it's not hard to admit when people are right about something. ;)


Originally posted by keith koth
How heavy do you think heat resistant gear would be? Currently US troops carry between 80-120 pounds of gear while in combat. I would think that heat resistant gear would weigh no more than 30-40 pounds, but even if it weighed 120 pounds, it would still be within the opperational limits of combat.

Question: If you have to have a 40 pound suit to be heat resistant, how hot is it gonna get in the suit? See you're not just facing the heat problem outside, but inside as well. If it get's too hot in a suit, the soldier is gonna encounter problems such as fatigue and thirst.

Yeah they could just protect the areas that would have the gun, but how big is that area gonna be? They go for a safe side, so it's safe to assume they could try to cover as much as they could. So we're talking about full arms, torso, head, neck, and waist coverage here, because that heat could get several places here, not just some vest. Obviously the soldier has many things they carry in pouches, but wait these pouches would be cover by the suit, otherwise they would get burnt from heat. A soldier's head would need to be fully covered so their eyes could be safe from the heat and they could see, however this could cut down on head movement, obviously something quite needed in combat to see your surrounding area. It's just not convient enough, an army would never have a gun such as this because the requirements for the soldier's protection make it too inconvient and not cost effective. Assumption? No. Facts? Yes.


Originally posted by keith koth
Hey, you are the one who challanged my statements. I am just defending my position. Am I suppose to just give in and accept your idea...just because you want me to? Besides, you have not given any solid evidence to back your side of the arguement. You continue to use subjective terms such as "eventually". You are basing your arguement on the assumption that the Jedi have only shown a "glimpse" of their total power, on the assumption that the gun I describe (Metal Storm) is entirely inaccurate, on the assumption that heat resistant gear would be too heavy and laborious for use in combat, etc. Perhaps you should step back, think for a moment, and then provide a logical arguement with "soild" evidence to back up your statements. Otherwise, the statement above should apply to you: Heavens forbid the possibility that someone else is right.



Look, I'm offering my opinion, with facts that I know, and assumptions based on facts. You're offering me your opinion with skepticism not backed by anything but speculation. No you're not supposed to just give in to every word I say, but take them into consideration. That's the point of debates you know. I've been listening to your opinions, and some of them are just beating a dead horse because I've already offered a counter opinion with facts. You can look up gun physics I'd guess just about anywhere. Your only fact source however has been a page, which had someone talking about that machine gun as if it was a wet dream. They didn't offer any specification facts in it on the overall physics, but you're assuming it's a super gun and that it would work in full production after the original design was modified.

As for the Jedi, I'm basing my assumptions on the fact that they have such varying powers. We didn't see all the Jedi there, we didn't even see all the council members there! We don't know how powerful they get, those were only Jedi Knights and Padawans, we don't know how much training they had had or what their main abilities were. We don't know what Lucas has in store, but your opinion is that we have seen everything, even when theres one movie left and the Jedi weren't all there. Specifically more powerful Jedi like the council members. Yoda wasn't in the main ring, we don't know all that he can do when he's got a huge force reserve.

Nice, trying to turn that around me. However I have already addressed your opinions, I have said that you could be right on multiple topics, you just didn't consider it. Like with the whole super droid, yeah a Jedi could probably be taken down depending on the size of the gun. See? You're bent on someone just saying "Oh you're right, I was a fool, I give up." Well I'm not a fool, you're not right, I don't know if I am either, we won't know fully until Episode III, but I'm the one backing my opinions with facts.

[JediTricks]

Originally posted by stillakid
Not to mention that the shield technology in this universe seems to be only functional when faced with energy type weapons. Take the Naboo battle for instance. The lasers bounced off that shield like gnats on my windshield, but the solid objects passed through relatively easily. "relatively easily" is clearly subjective, in the film it's obvious that it takes a lot of effort for the droids to penetrate the field, it slows them down quite a bit. If the case is that the faster something comes towards the field, the more resistance it meets, a bullet would either lodge in the shield, come out the other side so slow that it wouldn't be effective, or be stopped dead in its path and drop like a stone outside the shield (or maybe even ricochet backwards).


If you hadn't noticed, there don't seem to be any advanced slug-throwers in the canon SW universe. If there is no technology to make a working machine gun, the criminals couldn't have access to this sort of technology which would be a solid reason why they couldn't use high-velocity, high-volume slug-throwers. But even if they did, I still think any Jedi that can dodge blaster bolts, move things with the Force, or even use their powers to deflect blaster bolts should be able to use their Force powers to anticipate where the stream of bullets is coming from and going to be before they get there and either evade these bullets or destroy the stream with the lightsaber.

[keith koth]

Originally posted by LTBasker
I don't know. I don't know full gun specifics, I just figured it was common sense that something could not shoot 1,000,000 rounds in one minute without a problem. It's physically impossible. Not too mention theres supply, who the heck is gonna be carrying around a box of a 1,000,000 round ammo belt? That's gonna be quite a target.. I mean it sounds like if you were to hit a supply package with the ammo belt, it'd go up pretty easily.

So, since you do not know full gun specifics, you are making an assumption. How do you know it is physically impossible to shoot 1 million rounds per minute? Once again you are making an assumption . Also, one does not need to carry around millions of rounds. The rate at which the bullets would be moving towards the Jedi would be well more than they could handle (I admit that this statement is an assumption but there is no evidence to prove that a Jedi can withstand this type of fire power...heck, they were "falling like flies" when they were overwhealmed by blaster fire, which was firing at a much lower rate than the Metal Storm Gun)


Originally posted by LTBasker
I hadn't read that article before, I just got done with it. It's doubtful. Yeah, that may true the PROTOTYPE could work, but what about if it were run into production? Obviously prototypes have to be modified to use simpler parts for production, that's where a big problem lies. You know all a Jedi has to do is hold a force shield for one minute, concentrating on one specific area, and then he's free. True there is the law about how seconds can seem like hours, however if a Jedi held it's force on reserve, and used it for that, it would likely be able to.

Once again, you are making an assumption . What law say one must use "simpler parts" for mass production? They could even use more sophisticated, more technologically advanced parts with a "government" budget backing such a weapon (we know how the government likes to spend like 25,000 dollars for a toilet seat for the space shuttle when a 15 dollar seat would have worked just fine...so we know that the govt. likes to over-spend)

All we have to go on is what we have seen in the 5 movies that have been made so far. No where in any of those movies have we seen any Jedi produce a "force field" to protect himself/herself from anything. So, based upon the facts as presented in the movies, you are making an assumption.


Originally posted by LTBasker
They did not say full specifics of the gun, they only stated how it would work. Now obviously the funds they had were different than Goverment funds, because it was a private invention. They didn't say wether or not it was built to just barely be able to work perfectly, wether it could only work with these materials, or if it could be stretched to be redesigned to work with simpler materials. There are little cold hard facts about it, so you're just assuming it's a super gun.

As stated above, who says that simpler materials have to be used? Also, what does "Barely able to work perfectly" mean? It either works or it doesn't...In the test runs, the Metal Storm has performed "perfectly"...not "barely" perfectly.


Originally posted by LTBasker
Sorry, it was Stilla that had suggest specific weaponry, or do you not read every post?... Then again you two really sound alike so it'd be easy to get the posts confused. ;)

Thanks, I will take that a a compliment!


Originally posted by LTBasker
Actually it does matter what type of gun fires those bullets. See that's a lack of oversight, obviously a personal rifle, machine gun or sub machine gun isn't gonna be as powerful as let's say.. an A-10 Thunderbolt's gattling gun, or some super turret mounted on a droid.

Power has little to do with this. Heck, a .22 caliber rifle (probably the one of the weakest firearms) can kill a man. The point is the overwhealming volume of projectiles that are being "launched" at the Jedi. Only one bullet placed in the right area would get the job done (i.e., kill the Jedi).


Originally posted by LTBasker
No how much is 1,000,000 bullets per minute? 40? Look, your arguments have been around the gun firing for a whole minute. So 16,667 a second is gonna be little difference, because the whole barrage is going to be coming. As I stated, a Jedi would only need to whole a shield for a minute, can they do that? I don't know, I'm assuming they can based on facts. You're assuming they can't based on skepticism.

You are correct in the fact that I am basing my opinion upon skepticism, but where is your factual evidence? As I stated above, there has been no precedent set in the previous movies to suggest that a Jedi can create and hold a forcefield around himself/herself. So, once again, you are making an assumption


Originally posted by LTBasker
You're right, as I said it was Stillakid, and I made a mistake. See it's not hard to admit when people are right about something. ;)

True, and I DO admit when I am wrong, but only when factual, indisputable evidence has been presented to negate my opinion/theory. If you bring forth the evidence to back your claim, then I will admit I am wrong, but until then I must stick by my beliefs.

I truly wish that you could prove me wrong, because I would like to think that Jedi could build a "force field" around themselves...making them invincible, but the way things have played out, it just does not seem that they have that ability...of course, there will always be the exception to the rule...there may be 1 or 2 on the council that have such powers...but that remains to be seen.


Originally posted by LTBasker
Question: If you have to have a 40 pound suit to be heat resistant, how hot is it gonna get in the suit? See you're not just facing the heat problem outside, but inside as well. If it get's too hot in a suit, the soldier is gonna encounter problems such as fatigue and thirst.

Our US soldiers faced that same problem with all of their gear (80-120 pounds) while wearing non-breathable bio-chemical protective suite. Sure, it may cause fatigue and thirst, but it is within operational limits.


Originally posted by LTBasker
A soldier's head would need to be fully covered so their eyes could be safe from the heat and they could see, however this could cut down on head movement, obviously something quite needed in combat to see your surrounding area. It's just not convient enough, an army would never have a gun such as this because the requirements for the soldier's protection make it too inconvient and not cost effective. Assumption? No. Facts? Yes.

They can have protective materials that still allow for mobility of the head...as well as the rest of the body. Where are the "FACTS" in your statement above? Every sentence sounds like assumptions to me.


Originally posted by LTBasker
Look, I'm offering my opinion, with facts that I know, and assumptions based on facts. You're offering me your opinion with skepticism not backed by anything but speculation.

I have seen few (if any) facts in your argument. I have based my "skepticism and speculation" upon actual numbers and known materials. Look, I provided a link (which I'm glad you read) that provides PROOF of the speed at which the gun fires. I have based my speculation of heat resistant composite alloys (for gun construction) and light weight heat resistant materials (for personal heat protection) upon actual KNOWN materials that exist in our real world...I didn't just make these things up...they do exist.

I based my skepticism of the Jedi's powers upon what we have already seen in the 5 movies released so far...which tells me that they do have limits that can be defeated by ordinary (i.e., non-Jedi) people (e.g., Jango Fett). If the Jedi could build a force field around themselves, we have seen several situations where they had the chance, but failed to do so (i.e., Geonosis Arena, Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan's confrontation with the Destroyer Droids at the beginning of TPM, etc.).


Originally posted by LTBasker
No you're not supposed to just give in to every word I say, but take them into consideration. That's the point of debates you know.

Yes, that is the point of debates...and I wouldn't expect you to give in either, unless I have provided sufficient evidence to support my claims. However, I have considered what you have to say...and I can honestly say that in my opinion you have presented few facts with many speculations and assumptions.


Originally posted by LTBasker
You can look up gun physics I'd guess just about anywhere. Your only fact source however has been a page, which had someone talking about that machine gun as if it was a wet dream. They didn't offer any specification facts in it on the overall physics, but you're assuming it's a super gun and that it would work in full production after the original design was modified.

Again, who said the gun has to be modified for a "production run"? You are again making an assumption . I know that I have only presented this one page as my "facts source"; however, I have referenced other materials that I have not cited. I will be glad to provide you with these materials if it will sway your opinion about the effectiveness of the Metal Storm gun, bullistics, composite alloys, or wearable heat resistant materials. Although, I'm sure a quick web search on Google for any of these topics will bring you the information you need in order to validate my claims.


Originally posted by LTBasker
As for the Jedi, I'm basing my assumptions on the fact that they have such varying powers. We didn't see all the Jedi there, we didn't even see all the council members there! We don't know how powerful they get, those were only Jedi Knights and Padawans, we don't know how much training they had had or what their main abilities were. We don't know what Lucas has in store, but your opinion is that we have seen everything, even when theres one movie left and the Jedi weren't all there. Specifically more powerful Jedi like the council members. Yoda wasn't in the main ring, we don't know all that he can do when he's got a huge force reserve.

Again, we can only base our opinions on what we HAVE seen so far. Like I said above, there may be a council member or two that has the ability to form a force field around him/herself...but they would probably be the exception and not the rule...as there have been many opportunities throughout the 5 movies for Jedi to create such force fields...yet they have failed to do so.

However, I will agree that the Jedi's powers are varied, and we probably have not seen everything they have to offer...but not all Jedi posess the same powers.


Originally posted by LTBasker
Nice, trying to turn that around me. However I have already addressed your opinions, I have said that you could be right on multiple topics, you just didn't consider it. Like with the whole super droid, yeah a Jedi could probably be taken down depending on the size of the gun. See? You're bent on someone just saying "Oh you're right, I was a fool, I give up." Well I'm not a fool, you're not right, I don't know if I am either, we won't know fully until Episode III, but I'm the one backing my opinions with facts.

NO, I don't want to hear you say "oh, you are right, I was a fool, I give up". I just want you to provide factual evidence based upon events that have taken place in the previous 5 movies, which will disprove my statement that: "A projectile weapon, such as the Metal Storm can mow down a Jedi much more efficiently than a blaster". If I am right, then I am right...I don't need to hear that from you or anyone else...but If I am wrong, then prove it!

:happy:

[LTBasker]

Originally posted by keith koth
So, since you do not know full gun specifics, you are making an assumption. How do you know it is physically impossible to shoot 1 million rounds per minute? Once again you are making an assumption . Also, one does not need to carry around millions of rounds. The rate at which the bullets would be moving towards the Jedi would be well more than they could handle (I admit that this statement is an assumption but there is no evidence to prove that a Jedi can withstand this type of fire power...heck, they were "falling like flies" when they were overwhealmed by blaster fire, which was firing at a much lower rate than the Metal Storm Gun)

It's not physically impossible to shoot 1,000,000 rounds a minute if the gun is made right, it's physically impossible to do it without problems. Obviously if you've got a gun made of simpler construction, or the person is growing tired, or they're getting freaked, or something has to happen. Eventually something will break from the heat caused by this thing, and if you do this for multiple minutes, wooh theres gonna be some mega heat going on there. That's definitely gonna be taking out the gunner.

Once again you're assuming the Jedi can't block the initial blasts, of course you need more ammo! You'd be an idiot to be going around without more ammo.

Once again, you failed to read the rest of my post, how do we know those were experianced Jedi in the first place? Also as pointed out several times before, BLASTER BOLTS ARE DIFFERENT THAN BULLETS. If they had actual matter flying at them, no doubt they would've reacted different. You're acting like they're a bunch of mindless drones who think one tactic fits all. Look at how different each Jedi is, look at the way they treat the force, they're not just gonna wip it out like a frickin sith.


Originally posted by keith koth
Once again, you are making an assumption . What law say one must use "simpler parts" for mass production? They could even use more sophisticated, more technologically advanced parts with a "government" budget backing such a weapon (we know how the government likes to spend like 25,000 dollars for a toilet seat for the space shuttle when a 15 dollar seat would have worked just fine...so we know that the govt. likes to over-spend)

Ok, on the simpler parts issue, it's damn well obvious they would use them to be more efficient. Ever wonder why you don't see mass-produced mondo guns in wars? Because they're not cost efficient. If something is going to be manufactured in bulk, it needs to be cost efficient, that's how things work. LOOK ANYWHERE and you will find that info. That's a cold hard fact. You know why alot of guns in World War II looked odd? Because they had to be made of simpler materials, they couldn't be producing guns at $300 each, they were cutting them down to $15 each! That's not a guess, look on any war documentary, gun site, whatever, the fact is there. Anyone could tell you that the final product is always changed to be cost efficient because the goverment does not want to pay as much as a private company did.

Well duh a $15 seat would do fine, except it's on the SPACE shuttle, obviously it has to be designed SPECIFICALLY for the shuttle in order for everything fit and function properly. It'd cost alot more to fit something around a $15 seat from Wal-Mart than it would to just design it with the shuttle itself. See theres a cost efficiency difference. They can't just toss a porcelin toilet in space, it's gotta be designed for Zero-G. Do you think that little ball's gonna be able to detect the water level if it never comes down? :p



Originally posted by keith koth
All we have to go on is what we have seen in the 5 movies that have been made so far. No where in any of those movies have we seen any Jedi produce a "force field" to protect himself/herself from anything. So, based upon the facts as presented in the movies, you are making an assumption.

How do we know that's not what Yoda used to block the debris? Obviously it would've a pain to grab all that at once, they just didn't make force effects evident like Hasbro tries to do. See, theres a different in our assumptions. I actually look at stuff, comprehend it, and then make an assumption following those lines. You look at something, and take it for cold hard fact.


Originally posted by keith koth
As stated above, who says that simpler materials have to be used? Also, what does "Barely able to work perfectly" mean? It either works or it doesn't...In the test runs, the Metal Storm has performed "perfectly"...not "barely" perfectly.

Read above, wait before you scroll up, actually read it if you do eventually scroll up.

How do you know that Metal Storm worked perfectly? Didn't say that, and you can't really take that guy's word for it, it was like he had just got done with the perfect girl. Obviously he very well could be misleading in exaggerated facts. We didn't see any officials report that it worked "perfectly" just someone's opinion on how it did.


Originally posted by keith koth
Power has little to do with this. Heck, a .22 caliber rifle (probably the one of the weakest firearms) can kill a man. The point is the overwhealming volume of projectiles that are being "launched" at the Jedi. Only one bullet placed in the right area would get the job done (i.e., kill the Jedi).

Maybe so, but how would the bullet penetrate? See, you're assuming that the Jedi didn't have the shield up, no duh it would kill the Jedi in the right place. I'm not saying they're immortal, do you even understand my posts?


Originally posted by keith koth
You are correct in the fact that I am basing my opinion upon skepticism, but where is your factual evidence? As I stated above, there has been no precedent set in the previous movies to suggest that a Jedi can create and hold a forcefield around himself/herself. So, once again, you are making an assumption

Look it up. My factual evidence is available pretty much anywhere related to the things I've mentioned. And I've stated, there is no evidence to suggest that a Jedi couldn't use the force to do this either, so you're making even more of a wild assumption than me. Who's said anything about a force field around themselves? That would definitely take work. No reason they can't just make a squareish field of sorts, it only has to overlap them by a bit, because it's not like the bullets can just curve around the shield. Heck it'd be redudant to make a shield on their backside if the bullets are coming only from the front. Even if they were surrounded they wouldn't need a shield close to them, just a basic cylindrical shape.


Originally posted by keith koth
True, and I DO admit when I am wrong, but only when factual, indisputable evidence has been presented to negate my opinion/theory. If you bring forth the evidence to back your claim, then I will admit I am wrong, but until then I must stick by my beliefs.

Well I obviously will never be able to, I'm not Lucas. I'm going about as close as I can get, adding the facts and evidence up to make my opinion. You're wildly assuming off of some guy's wet dream of a gun.


Originally posted by keith koth
I truly wish that you could prove me wrong, because I would like to think that Jedi could build a "force field" around themselves...making them invincible, but the way things have played out, it just does not seem that they have that ability...of course, there will always be the exception to the rule...there may be 1 or 2 on the council that have such powers...but that remains to be seen.

As mentioned, who said it had to be around them? It's a redudancy. See even when I put up that concept code drawing, you don't even remember it. The shield was obviously RIGHT THERE, it wasn't body tight, it was a straight line. Thus meaning it would be in front of them, not around them. To trace every contour of their body would take more power than needed.

I never said anything about making them invincible, they'd still be vulnerable to many things, especially if they're power was weakening. Actually if you use a grenade they'd likely be dead even if they stopped it cause the timer would still set it off.

As I said, we haven't seen every Jedi, we haven't seen every ability, we dunno what type of Jedi those were in the arena and what the Council ones are even capable of. We may never see it, because theres usually little reason to show such huge force powers, it distracts from the main story line.


Originally posted by keith koth
Our US soldiers faced that same problem with all of their gear (80-120 pounds) while wearing non-breathable bio-chemical protective suite. Sure, it may cause fatigue and thirst, but it is within operational limits.

Yeah but you see, their suits are actually quite thin, and they can be worn under their other gear because it's unlikely chemicals would harm any of it. Maybe their food, but I'm sure they would have specially packed food of sorts. A heat resistant suit though would require thicker materials, because it's not blocking bacteria. The heat outside would increase the heat inside as well, even more so than it would be in the chemical suits, so it's unlikely they would be within operational limits.


Originally posted by keith koth
They can have protective materials that still allow for mobility of the head...as well as the rest of the body. Where are the "FACTS" in your statement above? Every sentence sounds like assumptions to me.

Well that's weird, cause your sounds like you're pulling them out of a sarlacc. Look on any site that gives info about usual requirements for the goverment to institute a piece of equipment and you'll see that stuff like that would not be efficient.


Originally posted by keith koth
I have seen few (if any) facts in your argument. I have based my "skepticism and speculation" upon actual numbers and known materials. Look, I provided a link (which I'm glad you read) that provides PROOF of the speed at which the gun fires. I have based my speculation of heat resistant composite alloys (for gun construction) and light weight heat resistant materials (for personal heat protection) upon actual KNOWN materials that exist in our real world...I didn't just make these things up...they do exist.

Show me a material that can repell melting heat that's as thin as their bio-protective suits and I'll believe that you're actually using facts. You provided a link that proved there was a gun that could shoot 1,000,000 rounds a minute, but your link does not go into specifics about the way the gun functions, only how there are no moving parts.

True, there could be alloys that stop a gun from melting down, but how long are those designed for? 30 rounds bursts? Also are these alloys on mass produced or low produced guns? Cost differences always decide how strong the alloy will be as stated above.


Originally posted by keith koth
I based my skepticism of the Jedi's powers upon what we have already seen in the 5 movies released so far...which tells me that they do have limits that can be defeated by ordinary (i.e., non-Jedi) people (e.g., Jango Fett). If the Jedi could build a force field around themselves, we have seen several situations where they had the chance, but failed to do so (i.e., Geonosis Arena, Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan's confrontation with the Destroyer Droids at the beginning of TPM, etc.).

And I've based my opinions off of the 5 movies, with one left that can either shatter or help either of our arguements. You think the Jedi would take the easiest way out? Nah, they don't go the easy route, that is perfectly evident. Qui & Obi didn't need a field, they were holding them off perfectly fine, they didn't want to continue that any longer because they knew it would just continue on with more arriving, so they ran. The Geonosis arena situation is about the same, except the Jedi were likely mostly just basic Knights and Padawans, quite possibly not powerful enough to do such a thing efficiently enough, plus what would have been the point? They kept coming in waves, once their force power flickered out they'd be done for. However if they know a gun has a definite limited amount of ammo, then that would definitely call for a shield. See it's a little thing called Logic.

QUOTE]Originally posted by keith koth
Yes, that is the point of debates...and I wouldn't expect you to give in either, unless I have provided sufficient evidence to support my claims. However, I have considered what you have to say...and I can honestly say that in my opinion you have presented few facts with many speculations and assumptions. [/QUOTE]

You haven't seen the facts because you claim to have taken things into consideration, but you haven't, that's clearly evident if you reread things, and I know you don't from a past debate. You have not provided sufficient evidence to support your claims, as you have only provided a link with a guy going off on how spectacular bullets being fired fastly is. My facts, while I admit I haven't direct linked to anything, could be easily looked up, yours however are mostly just things you claim to be true. Not too mention it doesn't sound like you're taking the overall perspective of how Jedi use the force into consideration. You just think that since a gun can fire that fast, that there can't be a stop to it.


Since basically the rest of it is stuff we've already covered, not gonna quote it, and it is just a post above mine so eh. I'm not continuing this debate any longer with you though, feel free to provide your "sources" and get the last word in to inflate your overused ego, then fine so be it. I'm through beating the dead horse, I've said my opinions, and you can find the facts behind my arguments just about anywhere related to those subjects.

[keith koth]

Here is a link to the webpage of the manufacturers of the metal storm gun. Pretty much any question you may have can be found somewhere on this site. Specifically, the "over heating" issue is covered on the FAQ (technology section)

http://www.metalstorm.com/

Apparently heat put off by the gun is not much of a problem to the user; however, if one was concerned, then leather clothing would provide sufficient protection from any heat release the gun may have...while still being lightweight and providing adequate mobility (just as steel workers and other metallurgists may use).

Bottom line: We will never see projectile type weapons used in the SW movies, so this whole arguement is pretty much worthless...as we will never know who is correct.

Heck, you know what..."you are right, I was a fool, I give up". :crazed:

No, seriously though, nice debate...no hard feelings! :)

[stillakid]

Originally posted by LTBasker
And you know this because you're Lucas? I don't know if there are, but these would not be impossible. They obviously have to construct a field to grab something, why would it be so impossible that they could just have a stationary field to block something? :)

I know this because I watch the movies. There is no precedent for such a superpower so I don't include it in any suppositions.

And no, they don't necessarily "create" a field to do anything. As we don't know how it really works, there's no point in assuming anything yea or nay. I have my own theory, but that's all it is. However, my own theory has basis in what we've actually SEEN on film, not on how I'd rather interpret the information to have it make some kind of sense. That's always been my M.O. regarding all the topics under discussion. :)



Originally posted by LTBasker
When did they struggle?
Everytime they have to use the Force. And why assume that Yoda has to struggle just because he's old? That is counter to the teachings about the Force that we learn about on Dagobah. It's just an energy field. Anyone can use it (if they're now infected with enough Midichlorians that is :rolleyes:), size matters not. I'll go out on a limb and place my own assumption in there that age matters not either. It only makes sense.



Originally posted by LTBasker
Who said they were fired upon while doing that?
Why wouldn't I assume that they'd have to do this under diress? You're suggesting that they dismantle a weapon before they get fired upon? I don't get it.

The point of the original question is, if faced with a weapon that fires multiple projectiles at a Jedi, will they survive? The answer in my mind is no, and I have yet to hear any suitable arguments that would refute that position without question.




Originally posted by LTBasker
Sorry, it was Stilla that had suggest specific weaponry, or do you not read every post?... Then again you two really sound alike so it'd be easy to get the posts confused. ;)
While you guys discuss the finer intracacies of the variety of weapons available, I don't think it matters one hoot how fast the bullets fly. An uzi will send out a steady stream of projectiles far faster than any Jedi would be able to swing the saber around to melt them down or deflect them. I suppose it could be argued that one Jedi could successfully defend himself against one stream of bullets from one gun. But using the Arena as an example, a droid army equipped with nothing but machine guns of any strength would quickly slice through a group of Jedi who can't really defend each and every side of themselves at once.




Originally posted by LTBasker
Well I'm not a fool, you're not right, I don't know if I am either, we won't know fully until Episode III, but I'm the one backing my opinions with facts.
In regards to my question, you've backed your position with your own non-screen theories about what you think a Jedi is capable of. :)

[keith koth]

Thank you stillakid!

I have given up on this discussion (against my own good judgement) just so I canmake SOME friends here...if you have seen other threads here (which I know you have), most people here seem to dislike me and my argumentative stance on most issues...so, although I would like to continue this debate, I believe it is MY best interest to "drop it" at this point...however, I hope you continue on to prove OUR point of view to be more viable than others.

However, I would like to reserve the right to re-enter the debate at any time.

:)

Good luck!

[Jedi Clint]

Why couldn't a Jedi stop numerous projectiles at once?

Why couldn't a Jedi use the force to cause a mechanical failure in an opponent's weapon?

[stillakid]

Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Why couldn't a Jedi stop numerous projectiles at once? I don't know. That's the gist of the question. Can he? Based on what we've actually seen of their powers, it doesn't appear likely. There is too much "concentration" necessary to do many basic tasks (like opening doors). A Jedi under attack would have to react very quickly (which we know he can do). He has three options as I see it based on precedent from the films:

1. Swing the lightsaber in the way to a)melt the bullets, or b) deflect them.

2. Jump out of the way.

3. Combo of one of those two plus do some kind of Force push or pull on the weapon and/or the enemy.

That is in reference to just one weapon firing upon him. When faced with multiple targets surrounding him, a Jedi would have no time to successfully maneuver the lightsaber around to stop multiple streams of projectiles. Similarly, because of the concentration issue, he couldn't Force Push away all of the weapons before they fired upon him. The only option left open in that case is to cut and run, as we saw Qui Gon and Obi Wan do in TPM.


Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Why couldn't a Jedi use the force to cause a mechanical failure in an opponent's weapon? Why could he? We have seen no evidence that a Jedi is capable of such a thing, so why introduce it as a possibility? But even if we do suggest such a thing, I suppose maybe it could be possible if only faced with one or two attackers. But as above, under diress with multiple attackers and multiple streams of bullets flying, a Jedi wouldn't have the time to "concentrate" on all the weapons simulataneously to cause enough mechanical failure to make a difference. As mentioned, that's an XMEN power, not a Star Wars one.

[Jedi Clint]

Originally posted by stillakid
Why could he? We have seen no evidence that a Jedi is capable of such a thing, so why introduce it as a possibility?

Palpatine unlocked Luke's handcuffs seemingly without the slightest effort. It would be no different to manipulate the mechanisms within a weapon in order to disable it.


I'm unwilling to speculate on the number of objects a Jedi could or could not concentrate on at once. Yoda was able to stop several individual chunks of ceiling from falling on him at once in AOTC.

Seems to me most Jedi use the force to stop solid object attacks and their light saber to deflect energy blasts.

It was interesting that Yoda was able to reflect and absorb energy emitted from the body of an individual using the force.

Avoiding a futile situation and removing one's self from the same are valuable skills....especially when the situation could claim your life.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Palpatine unlocked Luke's handcuffs seemingly without the slightest effort. It would be no different to manipulate the mechanisms within a weapon in order to disable it.
True, but the handcuffs weren't attacking him either. While he might have the means to do such a thing, having the time to do it is something else. See "concentration" below.


Originally posted by Jedi Clint
I'm unwilling to speculate on the number of objects a Jedi could or could not concentrate on at once. Yoda was able to stop several individual chunks of ceiling from falling on him at once in AOTC. True, Yoda did manage to impede the progress of several objects simulataneously and while they were in forward motion towards him. However, it took more than subtle effort on his part to accomplish that task. In fact, he put so much concentration into holding those "weapons" up in the air, that Dooku could easily have sent another object flying into the goblin and taken him out for good.


Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Seems to me most Jedi use the force to stop solid object attacks and their light saber to deflect energy blasts. Agreed, which is why the issue of the Force came into the discussion. It has been suggested by some that a Jedi is capable of "stopping" multiple streams of bullets flying at him simulataneously from every direction. I disagree and say that he would be cut to ribbons in short order.


Originally posted by Jedi Clint
It was interesting that Yoda was able to reflect and absorb energy emitted from the body of an individual using the force. I suppose, however we don't really know what is going on with those blue bolts. Based on Yoda's eloquent description of The Force in ESB, I would suggest that the bolts are not emitted by the user, rather, the bolts are a visual manifestation of the "energy field" itself. Ergo, we are seeing "the Force" as the user manipulates and concentrates the "energy" enough to cause a "stream" of, what is essentially, lightning.


Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Avoiding a futile situation and removing one's self from the same are valuable skills....especially when the situation could claim your life. I agree. We've seen Jedi make that choice (in TPM) when faced with a barrage that their a) power of foresight, b) lightsaber skills, and c) incredible speed couldn't handle. And as quickly as those laser bolts were coming from the Destroyer Droids, it's safe to say that a similar attack from a high powered machine gun would be several times more difficult to repel and far more lethal in the end. :dead:

[Jedi Clint]

Originally posted by stillakid
Agreed, which is why the issue of the Force came into the discussion. It has been suggested by some that a Jedi is capable of "stopping" multiple streams of bullets flying at him simulataneously from every direction. I disagree and say that he would be cut to ribbons in short order.


I respect your opinion on the matter. I don't know whether a Jedi could or could not extend their focus/powers/concentration/ablitities in order to avoid being ravaged by mutiple projectiles from a weapon as the situation has not been adequately addressed in the films.

It is my understanding that a properly trained Jedi should keep their mind clear of influences (including but not limited to fear and worry) at all times. Such training is essential in a combat situation. To what degree one can avoid these influences depends on the individual and potential. I am unable to quantify the skill and potential of any of these characters. When we apply hypothetical situations to characters without quantifying such variables, there is no way to conclusively ascertain the outcome.



Originally posted by stillakid
True, but the handcuffs weren't attacking him either. While he might have the means to do such a thing, having the time to do it is something else. See "concentration" below.

The stimuli of combat should not affect an individual's focus. Whether that holds true for every individual given that stimuli is uncertain.


Originally posted by stillakid
True, Yoda did manage to impede the progress of several objects simulataneously and while they were in forward motion towards him. However, it took more than subtle effort on his part to accomplish that task. In fact, he put so much concentration into holding those "weapons" up in the air, that Dooku could easily have sent another object flying into the goblin and taken him out for good.


Perhaps. Appearances can be deceptive though. Especially Yoda's.



Originally posted by stillakid
I suppose, however we don't really know what is going on with those blue bolts. Based on Yoda's eloquent description of The Force in ESB, I would suggest that the bolts are not emitted by the user, rather, the bolts are a visual manifestation of the "energy field" itself. Ergo, we are seeing "the Force" as the user manipulates and concentrates the "energy" enough to cause a "stream" of, what is essentially, lightning.


I agree. The being does seem to utilize it's physical manifestation (at least in part) to manipulate the Force energy.


Originally posted by stillakid
I agree. We've seen Jedi make that choice (in TPM) when faced with a barrage that their a) power of foresight, b) lightsaber skills, and c) incredible speed couldn't handle. And as quickly as those laser bolts were coming from the Destroyer Droids, it's safe to say that a similar attack from a high powered machine gun would be several times more difficult to repel and far more lethal in the end. :dead:

I just can't accept that conclusion any more than I can accept the opposite - that a Jedi should have absolutely no difficulty stopping a projectile weapon attack.

[Exhaust Port]

Boy, you leave a thread for a while and you miss quite a bit. I've had some catching up to do so I can't easily participate in the quote/counter point discussion. Here's what I think:

The Metal Storm/Million rounds per minute: I agree that it's capable of what they say. Just because it's beyond the current understanding of superguns doesn't mean that it can't work. LTBasker, it's a poor argument to say that it's common sense that it wouldn't work due to mechanical/thermal issues. Unless you work in the weapons industry, it isn't common sense. Please provide information back up your claim since it isn't common sense to any of us.

The only limitation I saw with the weapon from the articles provided by Keith was that the barrels had to be preloaded with the ammo. So, unless you could fit 1 Million rounds into the barrels you would never be able to achieve a full million rounds. Remember, the gun is ground breaking because of its RATE not its quanitity of rounds.

WWII weapons: I know this was a brief issue in the thread but I wanted to address it. The reason soldiers weren't all lugging around large caliber guns or cannons isn't because of cost issues. For the same reason that our soldiers don't in our modern army, not every soldier needs to have a machine gun. In fact in WWII, the Germans were all carrying around (in comparison to the Allies) high cost weapons. Nearly every aspect of the German weapons industry produced very high quality, high cost weapons that out performed the Allied counterpart. Our standard machine gun fired in the range of 800 rounds per minute as the German gun let lose 1,200 rounds per minute. Their aircraft and tanks were all superior mechanically but that let to issues of their own as the war dragged on.

A Jedi Force Field: We never see that they are capable of this. Stillakid has brought this up numbers of times without a good answer given. I think there are several instances that would provide an opportunity for the Jedi to use a Force Field but they never do. In the big battle in AOTC, the Jedi are surrounded on a all sides but they only repell their attackers shots with the lightsaber. As the battle concluded, why wouldn't they just form a force field or wall and protect themselves. I think the only conclusion we are allowed to draw is, if we didn't see it, they can't do it.

On the point of deflecting incoming shots: At no point in any movie do we see a Jedi deflect a shot with anything other than a Light Saber. On Cloud City, Vader stops Solo's bolts with his hands but it wasn't deflected. So we can perhaps guess that Jedi could absorb laser bolts with hand contact but as we saw in AOTC, plenty of Jedi were killed by laser bolts.

Bullets vs. Laser Bolts: A wall of incoming bullets is invisible and arrives before the sound so it's nearly impossible to detect that it's coming. We do know that Luke shows the ability to defend against an unseen attacker. But, he knows he's being attacked and its by a single attacker, firing a single shot. Again, he has to use a lightsaber to deflect any incoming shots.

So how would a gun fair against a Jedi. I think that a machine gun would fair pretty good against the Jedi.

1. Jedi must use a light saber to stop incoming shots. We don't see otherwise and can't assume they can.

2. Jedi can't produce a force field or force wall and must engage each incoming shot on it's own. We don't see otherwise and can't assume they can.

[2-1B]

Bullets don't exist in the SW universe, that's why the bad guys don't use them. :p

If they had bullets, I think there would be an advantage over the Jedi . . . so the Jedi would have to abandon their weapon of choice and find something different.

[RooJay]

Originally posted by stillakid
In regards to my question, you've backed your position with your own non-screen theories about what you think a Jedi is capable of. :)

Just an observation here, but it appears to me as thought you've backed you position with your own "non-screen" theories about what YOU think a Jedi is not capable of. I have been in discussions with you in the past where you have resorted to this sort of thing as evidence, but again...why is it only applicable regarding issues that you support? If it can be said that we must assume that if we do not see the Jedi being able to produce protective fields with the Force on screen that it must not be possible, then why can't the opposite also be said; it is never stated on screen that they are not capable of this feat - how can you say that it is certainly so?






All of this is moot anyway when you actually watch the movies (and by the way, there really are only two versions of the movie when you consider both the original releases and the special editions, but film, as with all forms of art, is subjective) and note that the Jedi are not even immune to blaster fire. Yes kiddies...Jedi can be, and are in the course of these stories, killed by blaster fire. So not only could they not block every bullet if they were shot at with conventional guns...they're not even always successful in blocking every shot from a blaster! We even see Jedi running from blaster fire at times, as in the case of Qui-Gon and Obi running from the Destroyers in Episode 1.

[RooJay]

Originally posted by keith koth
...but not all Jedi posess the same powers.

I'm interested in knowing where that assumption comes from. Where in the movie (on screen as it were, since we are supposed to believe that is the only thing that proves such things as being true or not) is it stated that not all Jedi posess the same powers? If it's possible that one of them is capable of a feat (by your own admission) then why is it not possible that all of them are capable of that same feat?



By the way, if the notion that not all Jedi have the same abilities comes from an off screen source then that essentially makes it EU. That having been said, the Jedi have been shown to be capable of creating force fields in the EU as well. Several times they have been shown to create these fields to protect themselves and others from cave ins and structural collapses.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by RooJay
Just an observation here, but it appears to me as thought you've backed you position with your own "non-screen" theories about what YOU think a Jedi is not capable of. I have been in discussions with you in the past where you have resorted to this sort of thing as evidence, but again...why is it only applicable regarding issues that you support? If it can be said that we must assume that if we do not see the Jedi being able to produce protective fields with the Force on screen that it must not be possible, then why can't the opposite also be said; it is never stated on screen that they are not capable of this feat - how can you say that it is certainly so?


If it doesn't happen on-screen, then we shouldn't assume that it could. No? I haven't backed my position with anything that is "offscreen" as you suggest. :confused:






Originally posted by RooJay
All of this is moot anyway when you actually watch the movies (and by the way, there really are only two versions of the movie when you consider both the original releases and the special editions, but film, as with all forms of art, is subjective) and note that the Jedi are not even immune to blaster fire. Yes kiddies...Jedi can be, and are in the course of these stories, killed by blaster fire. So not only could they not block every bullet if they were shot at with conventional guns...they're not even always successful in blocking every shot from a blaster! We even see Jedi running from blaster fire at times, as in the case of Qui-Gon and Obi running from the Destroyers in Episode 1.
The question isn't about the Jedi, rather it is in regards to anyone trying to kill a Jedi. Why would an enemy use a weapon that they know a Jedi can repel when there are other options available which Jedi might not be able to?

[keith koth]

Originally posted by RooJay
I'm interested in knowing where that assumption comes from. Where in the movie (on screen as it were, since we are supposed to believe that is the only thing that proves such things as being true or not) is it stated that not all Jedi posess the same powers? If it's possible that one of them is capable of a feat (by your own admission) then why is it not possible that all of them are capable of that same feat?

Umm, I think you answered your own question! I said that all Jedi do not have the same powers...I did not say that they were not CAPABLE of the same powers. Padwans, are not as skilled as knights, Knights are not as skilled as masters...

Example: In the showdown with Dooku, Yoda caught/absorbed the force lightening that Dooku directed towards him; however, Obi-Wan had to use his lightsaber to defend against the same force lightening, and poor little Ani darn near got knocked out with the same force lightening. Sure, Obi-Wan and/or Anakin could be capable of the same powers as Yoda, but they were not yet skilled enough in the force to achieve such a feat.

[RooJay]

Originally posted by stillakid
If it doesn't happen on-screen, then we shouldn't assume that it could. No? I haven't backed my position with anything that is "offscreen" as you suggest. :confused:

and yet you seem intent on the insistance that a Jedi could be taken out by conventional projectile weapons even though you haven't seen this happen on screen. Honestly, I've seen guys like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Bruce Willis dodge automatic weapons fire on screen on occasions too numerous to count in films where neither had any extranormal abilities so why shouldn't a Jedi be capable of the same? These films are fantasy and as such require a certain level of acceptance of what may[/] be possible given the context. It's true - in real life a Jedi would most certainly not be able to dodge or deflect bullets under any circumstances (whether able to create force fields or not), but neither would they posess Force abilities of any kind, nor would lightsabers exist at all, nor would there be any 'blasters' to be fired at them and blaster bolts for them to deflect.







The question isn't about the Jedi, rather it is in regards to anyone trying to kill a Jedi. Why would an enemy use a weapon that they [I]know a Jedi can repel when there are other options available which Jedi might not be able to?

Who's to say that an enemy hasn't done that at some point in the past, and realized that Jedi are capable of defending themselves against such weapons? If you are going to insist that it's possible for someone would concoct another "option" which a Jedi "might not be able to" repel within the context of the story, then you must also be willing to consider that someone might well in fact have done so within the same context and realized that blasters are the more effective route; otherwise we would therefore certainly see someone using these kinds of weapons within the context. Unless of course you choose to assume that since we haven't seen it on screen that no one within the confines of the story is mentally capable of coming up with the idea of using projectile weapons.

[RooJay]

Originally posted by keith koth
Umm, I think you answered your own question! I said that all Jedi do not have the same powers...I did not say that they were not CAPABLE of the same powers. Padwans, are not as skilled as knights, Knights are not as skilled as masters...

Example: In the showdown with Dooku, Yoda caught/absorbed the force lightening that Dooku directed towards him; however, Obi-Wan had to use his lightsaber to defend against the same force lightening, and poor little Ani darn near got knocked out with the same force lightening. Sure, Obi-Wan and/or Anakin could be capable of the same powers as Yoda, but they were not yet skilled enough in the force to achieve such a feat.

"Capable"..."skilled"...if you are going to speak of Jedi as a generalization then you have to consider what each of them is capable of. Afterall, you can't say that dogs can't be house broken just because new born puppies generally haven't been taught yet; puppies or trained circus poodles - they're all dogs, and DOGS certainly can learn to pee on the paper if you will. I sense that I'm not being as eloquent about my point as I want to be, but consider that when you speak of Jedi as a general term...you must consider the term to mean the full effect of what a Jedi is considered to be rather than only considering those who are partially trained as such. We are speaking of JEDI, not Jedi initiates, not Jedi padawans, not Jedi knights.

[keith koth]

Originally posted by RooJay
"Capable"..."skilled"...if you are going to speak of Jedi as a generalization then you have to consider what each of them is capable of. Afterall, you can't say that dogs can't be house broken just because new born puppies generally haven't been taught yet; puppies or trained circus poodles - they're all dogs, and DOGS certainly can learn to pee on the paper if you will. I sense that I'm not being as eloquent about my point as I want to be, but consider that when you speak of Jedi as a general term...you must consider the term to mean the full effect of what a Jedi is considered to be rather than only considering those who are partially trained as such. We are speaking of JEDI, not Jedi initiates, not Jedi padawans, not Jedi knights.


What is the "Full effect" of what a Jedi is suppose to be? I figure that "practicing" the force is a continual learning process; whereby, regardless of age, a Jedi continues to learn new aspects of manipulating the force. I mean Yoda is some 800 years old...Unless Yoda is a mildly retarded :crazed: Jedi with a slow learning curve...then Yoda is going to know alot more (and be alot more skilled) about the force than a human jedi who only lives to be 100 years old. Again, I submit to you this question: what is the "full effect" of what a jedi is suppose to be?

I suspect that some Jedi will go their whole life without ever learning how to absorb force lightening as Yoda did. So, if I go by what you say, Yoda is the only one that displays the "full effect" of what a Jedi is suppose to be; therefore, Yoda must be the only Jedi. :confused:

Bottom line: Jedi knights are still Jedi...just as Jedi Masters are Jedi...Thus the term Jedi in each of their titles. Essentially, you are wanting me to define a Jedi under the terms and conditions that you have developed for what you think a Jedi should be.

:happy:

[2-1B]

Originally posted by stillakid
Why would an enemy use a weapon that they know a Jedi can repel when there are other options available which Jedi might not be able to?

What other options ? :confused:
It's not like we've seen the bad guys make the choice between using blasters or bullets . . . we've just never seen bullets in the SW universe.


Originally posted by stillakid
If it doesn't happen on-screen, then we shouldn't assume that it could. No? I haven't backed my position with anything that is "offscreen" as you suggest. :confused:

Exactly, we've never seen bullets as an option on screen, so I don't know why the question is raised of "why don't the bad guys use bullets?" They just don't exist. :crazed:

It's like looking at a movie from the 60s or 70s. Someone is in danger, and a viewer in 2003 might ask
"why doesn't that person just use a cell phone to call for help? :confused: "
They didn't exist then ! :crazed:

As for whether or not a Jedi actually COULD defend against a high stream of bullets, of course not - as has been said, they can't always defend against blaster bolts so of course they wouldn't always defend against a stream of bullets. :rolleyes:

[Exhaust Port]

Originally posted by Caesar
As for whether or not a Jedi actually COULD defend against a high stream of bullets, of course not - as has been said, they can't always defend against blaster bolts so of course they wouldn't always defend against a stream of bullets. :rolleyes:

That was the point of initial question and I think this sums up answer nicely.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by Caesar
What other options ? :confused:
It's not like we've seen the bad guys make the choice between using blasters or bullets . . . we've just never seen bullets in the SW universe.



Exactly, we've never seen bullets as an option on screen, so I don't know why the question is raised of "why don't the bad guys use bullets?" They just don't exist. :crazed:

;)

While I fully understand your point, I'll refer to one of RooJay's comments as a reply:


Unless of course you choose to assume that since we haven't seen it on screen that no one within the confines of the story is mentally capable of coming up with the idea of using projectile weapons.

The key phrase is "projectile weapons." While technically, you are correct that since we haven't seen bullets in the Star Wars Universe there doesn't seem to be any point in introducing them as an option, I "concocted" the hypothosis only after viewing Attack of the Clones in which several attack vehicles clearly fired "projectile weapons." The Gunship pilot even says the word "rocket" at one point. I then logically backtracked the evolution of large scale projectile weapons using our own Earthly experience as a guide and reasoned that at some point in the history of the Star Wars galaxy, somebody, somewhere "invented" some kind of "projectile" weapon as a precursor to the "rockets."

So, no, "bullets" are not in the films as we've seen them, but there is an adequate logic trail to presume their existence at one time or another. Do you concur?

[JediTricks]

Originally posted by Exhaust Port

Originally posted by Caesar
As for whether or not a Jedi actually COULD defend against a high stream of bullets, of course not - as has been said, they can't always defend against blaster bolts so of course they wouldn't always defend against a stream of bullets. :rolleyes:
That was the point of initial question and I think this sums up answer nicely. Actually, the intial question I responded to in this thread mentioned nothing about a high stream of bullets OR blaster bolts, I think that's where a distinction should be made as to what we're talking about.



Stilla, if we haven't seen bullets in SW, then what about the thing I mentioned in my first post in this thread? (Tuskens shooting at podracers in TPM) Those are definitely bullets, just not very high-tech weapons firing them.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by JediTricks
Actually, the intial question I responded to in this thread mentioned nothing about a high stream of bullets OR blaster bolts, I think that's where a distinction should be made as to what we're talking about.
For my money, I've been able to see every laser blast that is fired at a Jedi. So if I can see it, so can he and theoretically with his superpowers, a Jedi can deflect it, dodge it, or whatever.

I can't see a bullet racing towards me so I presume that a Jedi can't either. Stopping at that logic, he'd get shot. But the argument is that a Jedi can "feel" or "sense" the bullet so with his powers of "foresight" and "superquickness" he can manuever the lightsaber quickly enough to defend himself. Okay, fine. For one bullet maybe. But what if it's a machine gun of any speed? Now we've got 20, 60, 100, 500, whatever rounds a second flying at him. How fast are these guys? Superfast you say? It's a bullet "stream" so he can effectively follow it. Alright, I'll meet you there, but then what about multiple attackers. Two, four, ten, twenty attack droids all armed with machine guns firing at all sides. I don't care how much "foresight" or Jedi power they have, I just don't see it happening. They'd get cut to pieces.




Originally posted by JediTricks
Stilla, if we haven't seen bullets in SW, then what about the thing I mentioned in my first post in this thread? (Tuskens shooting at podracers in TPM) Those are definitely bullets, just not very high-tech weapons firing them.
Ah, sorry, I forgot about that. Yeah, I suppose so. While I can't say for certain that those are projectile bullets, it sure seems like it.

I think that the original intention of the question got lost in the details. It certainly appears as if there is bullet technology in the Star Wars universe so all I was wondering about was why the enemy wasn't using it to attack the Jedi.

[JediTricks]

Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them - a basic principle of using the Force, according to Obi-Wan. Luke dodges those lighting-fast little bolts from the seeker ball and he's barely just started - hell, those little scrubs in Ep 2 were able to do that. Luke "sees" where the remote is going to fire and preceeds it there, thus blocking the blast. A trained Jedi should be able to do the same with a bullet IMO. If 1 bullet, why not multiple? Obviously there ARE limits, but each limit is different for each Jedi otherwise they all would have been wiped out at Geonosis.

If a Jedi can withstand 30 bullets in a second (which is fairly fast for a conventional high-tech Earth machine gun), he wouldn't have to just stand there and continue to take fire when he could escape using a Force jump or Force speed - and that's if he bothers to stay there before the first shot is actually fired - Luke jumps out of Vader's trap in ESB with a lot of speed before Vader used the Force to throw the carbon chamber switch, if a fully-trained able-bodied Jedi were able to sense an ambush from all sides, couldn't he jump out of the way and let the enemy kill each other before the first shot was even fired?

Then there's the matter of using the Force to deflect the bullet's path - the Force push can be used here as a blunt weapon I think, or you could have something more akin to the Force grab like Vader displays in ESB and Yoda displays before the big saber battle in Ep 2 - it seems that size, not momentum, seem to be the major defining factor in how much energy Yoda exerts to use the Force grab as the ceiling is small chunks moving very fast and he disposes of them quickly but the crane falls slowly and he struggles with that some (though he might be tired from hopping around like a frog on a hotplate too ;)). I think they can be grabbed and tossed aside very quickly when you're talking about a minor path change, it only takes a very subtle deviation to change the path of a bullet, either a Force grab or push should be able to change the path of tiny bullets a few degrees.


Originally posted by stillakid
Ah, sorry, I forgot about that. Yeah, I suppose so. While I can't say for certain that those are projectile bullets, it sure seems like it. I can... main page (which means non-EU) at SW.com about Tuskens (http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/tuskenraider/index.html), 2nd paragraph:

"They also carry projectile rifles with which to shoot at passing vehicles."

[RooJay]

Originally posted by keith koth
What is the "Full effect" of what a Jedi is suppose to be? I figure that "practicing" the force is a continual learning process; whereby, regardless of age, a Jedi continues to learn new aspects of manipulating the force. I mean Yoda is some 800 years old...Unless Yoda is a mildly retarded :crazed: Jedi with a slow learning curve...then Yoda is going to know alot more (and be alot more skilled) about the force than a human jedi who only lives to be 100 years old. Again, I submit to you this question: what is the "full effect" of what a jedi is suppose to be?

I suspect that some Jedi will go their whole life without ever learning how to absorb force lightening as Yoda did. So, if I go by what you say, Yoda is the only one that displays the "full effect" of what a Jedi is suppose to be; therefore, Yoda must be the only Jedi. :confused:

Bottom line: Jedi knights are still Jedi...just as Jedi Masters are Jedi...Thus the term Jedi in each of their titles. Essentially, you are wanting me to define a Jedi under the terms and conditions that you have developed for what you think a Jedi should be.

:happy:

Umm...yeah. You're listening...that much I can tell, but you certainly aren't paying attention to a word I've said.

Basically, by your rationale you are saying that it is also true that Jedi (in general) are not capable of changing their own diapers.:confused: Essentially, you are defining the general term of Jedi under the "terms and conditions that you have developed for what you think a Jedi should be defined as. I will say it again - you must be willing to consider what ever Jedi is capable of rather than what your preconceived notion of the skill level of the average Jedi is if you insist on speaking in general terms. It may well be true that not all Jedi will learn the same skills as Yoda throughout the course of their lifetime. It may even be true that Yoda himself has not yet mastered everything he might be capable of. The only person who could answer either of those questions for certain would be George Lucas (although, from what I'm told - he is no longer considered an expert on such subjects anyway:rolleyes: ). The thing that you must consider if you are going to make blanket statements about all Jedi, is what each Jedi is ultimately capable of regardless of the level of training and knowledge of each individual Jedi. The true fact of the matter is that we have not seen (remember our teachings from 'the Book of Stillakid') any Jedi being fired upon by bullets (at any rate of fire other than single shots from a Tusken slugthrower), but even if we had seen it I assure you that at least a couple Jedi would most certainly be able to counter that attack. This happens in movies all the time (being that they tend all to be works of fantasy) - no matter what is thrown at the heroes, they have a tendency to be able to handle it. There is not a chance in hell that you will ever see a Star Wars movie that features the Jedi being gunned down one by one and dying in a hail of bullets. The movie would be over pretty quickly and it would take out all the fun and magic of the experience.

To answer the question once and for all - The bad guys don't just use bullets because a) they're not as pretty streaking across the screen (which I imagine is also why blaster bolts are shown to fly so slowly in comparison) and b) because even if they did we would see that Jedi are generally more than capable of surviving such an attack, and that the bullets would be no more effective within the context than what the bad guys do use. In these movies the Jedi (being the heroes) are not so easy to take out by weapons fire, regardless of the type of ammo being used.

[Exhaust Port]

So it doesn't matter why kind of weapon is shooting at them it's a matter of the differences in rate. Forget that we are talking about bullets, would a Jedi be able to defend himself as easily against a blaster firing 800 bolts a minute as he does against the normal 60 bolts per minute? I doubt it. As we saw in the battle in AOTC, the Jedi who were killed were done so due to overwhelming assault. Shear numbers got them with each firing at 60 bolts per minute. Instead of 1000 soldiers firing at them at 60/min. how about 10 soldiers firing at them 6000/minute? Same devestating onslaught.

The Jedi's chosen defense against a blaster is deflection by use of their lightsaber. Obviously their ability to wield their weapon fast enough is what determines how many shots they can defend against in any particular amount of time. Increase your firing rate against a Jedi will eventually overwhelm him as he has limitations.

At no time are we given the sense that they have any other means by which to fight off blaster bolts so we can't assume they can.

The initial question asked if we changed one variable in the SW universe (being that someone brought a gattling gun to the fight) would the Jedi stand a chance. Only one variable was changed to what we know from the SW movies. It wasn't a question of if someone brought a gattling gun AND Jedi could produce a force field would the Jedi stand a chance. Nope, that would kind of defeat the purpose of the question.

Regardless of the type of ammo a Jedi would be cut down pretty quickly by a high rate of fire weapon.

Another limitation on the defensive ability of Jedi not only is the rate at which the fire is coming but also it's strength. Taking it to the extreme, a Jedi and his light saber wouldn't be very effective against the Death Star's main laser. So bring a big enough gun or cannon to a battle (and it wouldn't need to be as big as the DS's laser either), set it up on a hill and pick off the Jedi one shot at a time.

[keith koth]

Originally posted by RooJay
Basically, by your rationale you are saying that it is also true that Jedi (in general) are not capable of changing their own diapers.:confused:

What? I think you may be in the wrong thread. I have not even closely implied that Jedi are not capable of "changing their own diapers". I'm saying that the some Jedi are skilled in various "force arts" more so than other Jedi; thus, leading some Jedi to be more vulnerable than others.

Why can't I generalize when I am talking about the Jedi? Who are you to tell me that I can not generalize? Get real! :crazed:

I never said that any of the Jedi were not capable of anything...surely they are all capable. I merely said that "not all Jedi have the same powers". That is a fact...there is no inference there.

Besides, your argument has no bearing to the topic of the thread.


Originally posted by RooJay
The thing that you must consider if you are going to make blanket statements about all Jedi, is what each Jedi is ultimately capable of regardless of the level of training and knowledge of each individual Jedi.

That is not true. If I am talking about something that may happen at a given moment in time (example: the Geonosis Arena battle) I must only consider the current skill level of the Jedi. At that very moment, it does not matter what a Jedi is capable of...at that moment, it only counts if the Jedi has been properly trained in any given "force art". At that moment, not all Jedi have the same powers ...That, my friend, is an undisputable fact!


Originally posted by RooJay
The true fact of the matter is that we have not seen any Jedi being fired upon by bullets (at any rate of fire other than single shots from a Tusken slugthrower), but even if we had seen it I assure you that at least a couple Jedi would most certainly be able to counter that attack..

That was never disputed. I have already said that there are always exceptions to the general rule. Go back and look for yourself.

:happy:

[RooJay]

Maybe I was wrong. You apparently haven't read anything I've posted.
Like talking to a brick wall. I've said all I've needed to say; you may carry on without me. Good luck kiddo!;)

...............\|||/
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...,---ooO(_)----------,
...|````PLEASE````````|
...|``DON'T FEED````|
...|```THE TROLL ``|
...'--------------Ooo-----'
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.........ooO Ooo

[stillakid]

Originally posted by RooJay
There is not a chance in hell that you will ever see a Star Wars movie that features the Jedi being gunned down one by one and dying in a hail of bullets.

Obi-Bonnie & Ani-Clyde :D

[2-1B]

stillakid, don't forget to mention the rest of the trilogy,

"The Adventures of Ani and Obi James"
&
"The Outlaw Yoda Whales"

:D

[stillakid]

Originally posted by Caesar
stillakid, don't forget to mention the rest of the trilogy,

"The Adventures of Ani and Obi James"
&
"The Outlaw Yoda Whales"

:D

I smell a fan film coming on....:sur: