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mini-rock
04-29-2003, 05:43 PM
My apologies if this has been covered before, but I couldn't find a related thread doing a search.

Anyway, I was watching AOTC last night, and when it got to the scene where Obi-Wan is hiding behind a wall as Dooku, Nute, and co. are walking by, why didn't Dooku sense Obi-Wan's presense? I mean he was RIGHT there. Vader sensed Obi-Wan's presense from farther than the distance between Dooku and Obi-Wan. Was Dooku just to preoccupied with what he was doing to notice? Or did he sense Obi-Wan's presence, and had the Geo's go out on a search?

Thoughts? :)

Beast
04-29-2003, 06:25 PM
There seems to have to be some familiarity between Jedi's for the sensing to occur. Look at ANH, Vader sensed Obi-Wan's presence on the Death Star, but didn't sense Leia or Luke's force presence. Vader only sensed Luke later, when Obi-Wan was manifesting his presence in the cockpit of the X-Wing to speak with him. :)

Of course, if you follow the notion that all things are proceeding according to Darth Sidious' intricate plan then he may have noticed him and ignored it. Remeber that Obi-Wan has to get back to the Starfighter and transmit to Coruscant that somthing is going on on Geonosis.

Which allows Palpatine to get his power, his army, and take the first swipe at destroying the Jedi's, the Trade Federation, the Techno Union, and the Banking Clan and all the other factions currently associated with the Sepratists movement.

So I think it's quite possible that Dooku did know he was there, he just didn't stop him because Obi-Wan was a necissary part of the plan. Of course Dooku does seem to act as if Qui-Gon spoke highly of Obi-Wan, which could indicate that they have never met. So the first option could also fit the situation. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

keith koth
04-30-2003, 10:09 AM
I agree with JarJarBinks, both scenarios are logical and completely plausible.

TheDarthVader
04-30-2003, 10:58 PM
Great 3rd paragraph JJB. I can just see it now...ep3...Emperor Palpatine telling of this and how "it was I that---" . Oooo! I am going to love it. I hope he tells us (along with the characters) about his manipulation through the years and everything. It seems like something he would do. (ROTJ, talking to Luke about everything...show-boating...and gloating)

Beast
04-30-2003, 11:08 PM
Yep, I've posted before that we've seen Palpatine brag in ROTJ that everything was occuring as he had foreseen. That he was the one that allowed the allience to know the location of the shield generator. So we know that he's good at manipulating everyone from his braggings. But with the prequels we can actually see his manipulations in action. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JediTricks
05-01-2003, 07:43 PM
Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon didn't sense Maul in TPM ever. Both times they met with him, they were totally surprised by his appearance. They stood right next to Palpatine/Sidious in several scenes and didn't even notice he was a Sith.

Kidhuman
05-01-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon didn't sense Maul in TPM ever. Both times they met with him, they were totally surprised by his appearance. They stood right next to Palpatine/Sidious in several scenes and didn't even notice he was a Sith.

Alot of the Jedi stood next to Palpatine and couldn't detect him. But Yoda does say something to the effect of the Dark Side clouds vision.

Darth Jax
05-01-2003, 10:28 PM
it's EU but sith have a way to cloak themselves from easy detection by the force. maul mentions in TPM that finally will we reveal ourselves to the jedi, giving credence that sith can possibly hide from the force.

don't forget that the emperor couldn't sense that luke was on the moon of endor until informed so by vader in ROTJ. also neither vader nor the emperor ever sensed that yoda was still alive and had been training luke. always they refer to ben as having been his teacher.

as with most uses of the force that we're shown in the movies, concentration seems to be required. therefore might one only detect a presence via the force if actively searching for one. in anh when the falcon shows up vader could divine that something was amiss and probe with the force, touching ben's essence. but having no inkling that yoda is still alive, not be seeking his essence and thus overlook it. just a thought.

JediTricks
05-03-2003, 06:04 AM
The "clouded our vision" line in AOTC is something that I try to ignore, I think it's a poor decision to head towards and adds to that unpleasant prequel Force-rewriting where the Dark side is stronger. Plus, if the Dark side clouds their vision, then either Palpy and his apprentice control an entire galaxy worth of the Dark side of the Force or the Jedi should notice the clouding getting worce whenever they stand near the chancellor.

The point about the Emp not sensing Luke on Endor is potent to the theory that it takes familiarity to sense another Force-user. However, a potential counterpoint to this is when later in the film, Luke hides from Vader under some stairs in a relatively small throne room (though I say "potential" because that scene was initially much different, with Luke tossing his deactivated weapon out to Vader, so it may be more that Vader doesn't want to go in after him or the Emp wants to make sure he can see everything that's happening).

stillakid
05-03-2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon didn't sense Maul in TPM ever. Both times they met with him, they were totally surprised by his appearance. They stood right next to Palpatine/Sidious in several scenes and didn't even notice he was a Sith.

I'll have to do a search for it, but I've reasoned before that Palpatine may call himself a Sith, but up to this point anyway, he has had absolutely no need to even learn how to use the Force. He is wise and cunning enough to manipulate simple politics enough to get what he's needed so far. If he trained in Force manipulation, he would unnecessarily cause ripples in the fabric of the universe thus attracting attention to himself. That's why he raised and trained an accomplice. He's the brains, Maul was the muscle.

As far as the Obi Wan thing on Geonosis, I think that this was one of those "things the audience won't notice" moments. While it's true that "somehow" Palpatine's plan involved the Jedi finding out about this whole conspiracy (there is no logical explanation to explain how this could have happened without pure luck on Obi Wan's part), Obi had to be right there to hear the nefarious plan (ala, cheesy Batman or James Bond) so that Dooku could play his games later on.

Runobot
05-28-2003, 10:22 AM
Everyone wants to make out the force to be so powerful. Or at least, that the Jedi/Sith can use the force better then they have been shown to in the movies.

The thing is, they aren't so tough, they aren't godlike at all. Your basic comic book super heros could probably beat them in a fight, which to me is cool. To me, professor X can control people better than say Sideous.

I think in the SW galaxy, it is more difficult to do these things for the jedi/sith than people understand. In my opinion, maybe if Dooku were "reaching out" with the force he could have sensed him, but it is not like it is a constant thing, an unconscious thing always working...

The Overlord Returns
05-28-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
While it's true that "somehow" Palpatine's plan involved the Jedi finding out about this whole conspiracy (there is no logical explanation to explain how this could have happened without pure luck on Obi Wan's part

You don't think it is possible that Jango used the Kaminoan saber dart to whack Zam on purpose, knowing it would draw an investigation into the odd weapons origins?

stillakid
05-28-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
You don't think it is possible that Jango used the Kaminoan saber dart to whack Zam on purpose, knowing it would draw an investigation into the odd weapons origins?

Yes, possibly, but I've tried to follow the "plan" out through its conclusion and too much of it appears to be dependent upon sheer opportunistic luck. Sure fine, maybe the dart was meant to "lead" the Jedi to Kamino, but Fett sure made a stellar attempt to stop Obi from following him to Geonosis. If the plan was to get the Jedi to that planet so they could A) learn about the involvement of the Trade Federation, et al B) be set up by Dooku and C) have Yoda miraculously sweep in just in the nick of time with the Clone Army to boot, then I suppose it is a masterful plan. :rolleyes:

But if the dart was meant to do all that, why the failed vaporization assassination attempt at the beginning of the film? (For that matter, if killing Padme was the goal, why didn't that little window slicer droid carry a grenade instead of those stupid worm thingies?) See, not a whole lot of this makes much sense when you try to put the pieces together. In and of themselves, the elements are kinda cool, but there appears to be no effort at all to link things together logically if someone tries to figure out the backstory, as I have tried to do.

Darkross
06-03-2003, 11:10 AM
Yes...why not a grenade...then again...why didn't the gunners on the Star Destroyer destroy the escape pod even though it didn't have any lifeforms? So many incompitencies in the bad guys in SW...both in the OT and PT. I think this would fall under the Illogical Moments in the ... threads.

stillakid
06-03-2003, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Darkross
Yes...why not a grenade...then again...why didn't the gunners on the Star Destroyer destroy the escape pod even though it didn't have any lifeforms? So many incompitencies in the bad guys in SW...both in the OT and PT. I think this would fall under the Illogical Moments in the ... threads.

True. :) But then again, to take your example specifically, at least that screenplay (Episode IV) made the attempt to "explain away" the seemingly illogical action (or in this case, inaction). The Prequels make no attempt to do that at all. For no reason, and with no attempt at explaining why, poison millipedes are used instead of an explosive. How come?

There are plenty of illogical moments in all 5 films, but the OT writers (Huyck, Katz, Kasdan) all recognized the need to at least pay lip service to the potential problems and not ignore them outright like Lucas has in the Prequels.

DarthChuckMc
06-03-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
In and of themselves, the elements are kinda cool, but there appears to be no effort at all to link things together logically if someone tries to figure out the backstory, as I have tried to do.


EXACTLY!! In and of themselves, the elements are cool.

Just leave it at that. Why the neccessity to PICK PICK PICK PICK PICK?

Just watch the movies.

Is it going to make your day if you change one person's opinion of the PT? Is that your goal?


I just don't get it.

THEY ARE MOVIES!!!!

WHY?????? Just WHY???????????????????????????????????

mini-rock
06-03-2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Darkross
So many incompitencies in the bad guys in SW...both in the OT and PT.

I agree.:)

stillakid
06-03-2003, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
EXACTLY!! In and of themselves, the elements are cool.

Just leave it at that. Why the neccessity to PICK PICK PICK PICK PICK?
Fair question. Because the Prequels were written poorly in comparison to the original three. We all had a reasonable expectation to see something of like quality and, despite hardcore fan opinion, a large part of the viewing audience would be in agreement with me.

So why continue to pick it apart? Why not? ;) It's an interesting exercise to figure out just what went wrong, I suppose.


Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
Just watch the movies.
You're suggesting that I ignore the problems that are so obvious and enjoy them? I don't get it. That'd be like following a recipe for a cake that calls for Cayenne Pepper and Spinach. Instinctively I'd know it had to be wrong, but your logic tells me to just kick back and enjoy it. Ummm.....no. :)


Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
Is it going to make your day if you change one person's opinion of the PT? Is that your goal?
It might! :) Honestly, I hadn't really thought of it like that. Why, are you changing your mind? If you told me that you finally saw the light just to get me to stop critiquing the films, would you do it? If I stopped, do you think that everyone else who agrees with me would stop too? Interesting proposition.

That inspires a good question: If a film sucks and nobody talks about why, does it still suck?



Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
I just don't get it.

THEY ARE MOVIES!!!!

For you. For me, this is my career, my industry. I'm not a weekend fan, like some schmuck who works at "the plant" all week then cracks open a brew to enjoy the game on the weekend. I chose this career partly because of these films. So when the creator of them runs the franchise into the ground (creatively), I'm bound to be a little curious as to why and how.

More importantly, I suppose, is learning and experiencing the lengths that "fans" will go to to prevent discouraging words being spoken about their hobby. Look, I've never told anyone to not enjoy it. I could care less if you do or not. But I do take issue with the suggestion that I shouldn't dissect the films, the stories, the plots, the characters, the production design, and everything else, particularly if such an examination turns up some rather negative conclusions. As I've said many times, I don't invent this stuff. It's all in the films. I just find it. Sometimes it finds me. It's not my fault. I didn't write 'em. But get GL on the horn and ask him if I can write Episode III. Then you can go to town on me personally about any problems you might have with the film. I'd welcome the opportunity. :)


Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
WHY?????? Just WHY??????????????????????????????????? I understand your frustration. :) I have the same question (in bold) which I typically don't type whenever I see the same stubborn fan-rationalization going on even in the face of the most obvious proof of error in one of the films.

Such as:

WHY WHY WHY can't you see it? It's right there in front of your face! Why do you continue to make excuses for it? What could possibly be in it for you? I just don't get it. So it sucks. You still enjoy it. Can't those two concepts exist at the same time? I found oodles of problems in other films (like ID4, heck, like ANH and ESB for that matter) yet I still enjoy them. I admit the problems but still enjoy them. What's wrong with that?

Something like that. :)

stillakid
06-03-2003, 08:56 PM
You know, on a side note, I have a serious question. Without the "controversy" and people like me who bring up questions regarding the films, what would happen on a site like this? I mean, beyond the toy reports and the mods banning threads about streaking and such, if the films were Grade A Perfect, would anyone talk about them?

I'm reminded of that Chris Farley character on Saturday Night Live who annoyingly just "remembers" scenes from films and talks about how great they were. Is that the alternative that you'd prefer? "Hey, remember that time when Anakin blew up that Droid Control ship? Yeah, that was pretty cool."

Alrighty then. I suppose if I just went away, it could be a regular love-in around these parts. Everybody could get all cozy and snuggle up to the neato parts of the saga everyday and believe that all is well in Lucasville. MiniRock has chosen to pretend that this is what this place is by clicking on "IGNORE STILLAKID" (aside from the fact that I'm not the only one who finds and discusses problems around here).

Bottom line: we're all fans or else we wouldn't be here. Each person's fandom takes on a different form. I love critiquing the films. Tycho loves creating dioramas (impressive too! I've seen them in person). Some other people make and wear costumes to events (www.501st.com). JJB is expert at toy schedules and other like information. Some people collect the posters. Not a one of us is the same and some people are more "expert" at various parts of "fandom" than others. I'd defer quickly to ACPIN about customizing or diorama building. If I have a question regarding a toy, JJB is the one to see. If I have a costuming question, I head for one of the costuming sites. But everybody knows the frickin' alphabet so everybody thinks they know how to tell a story. Therein lies the rub that people have with me. Oh well. I say, figure out what makes you happy and do it (short of serial murder). :)

DarthChuckMc
06-03-2003, 09:33 PM
There are plenty of other threads, about a great many subjects, on these forums where people "talk", and don't get into the type of tirades that PT vs. OT subject matter causes. It's not an all out lovefest everywhere, but I haven't seen any other subject (other than religion and politics) cause such mean spiritedness as this does.

I guess I just watch movies for entertainment. I don't watch them for research, camera angles, screenplay etc. like you, or maybe some others do.

I'm not "in the biz". I don't ever intend to make a film. I don't see the same faults you do in the PT as you do, and I'm guessing MiniRock doesn't either.

There are plenty of things in the OT that don't make sense to me, but it was never something I thought about, until I started reading these posts about how one triliogy is better than the other.

I never questioned why the Imperials let the pod go, how the droids just happened to turn up at the Lars homestead, how Obi-Wan happened upon Luke in the middle of the desert, etc. etc. etc. I just watched the movies, and enjoyed them.

I guess I'm just a "weekend fan" :( ;)

And no...I'm not changing my mind :) To me....the PT is every bit of SW as the OT. I have my favorites among the 5 we have so far, and I like each one for different reasons. Right now, if I was told I could only watch one SW movie again for the rest of my days, it would probably be AOTC. As much as I LOVE the OT, it's old, not that that's a BAD thing. I've seen them all, literally 100s of times. I probably won't watch them again until after Ep 3 is out. I'm just burned out on them after 25 years. The PT has alot more to offer (in my opinion). Little things I may not have noticed after the 1st 10 or so viewings. Things that GL slipped in that relate to the OT. The effects (although eyecandy) are far superior (again, IMO) to the OT. To have aliens interacting with the actors, as opposed to being rubber masks in the shadows or puppets with limited movement.

I guess I'm just the kind of sucker GL was hoping to have viewing the PT.



edit: I never said I wanted you to go away Stilla. :D

stillakid
06-04-2003, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
There are plenty of other threads, about a great many subjects, on these forums where people "talk", and don't get into the type of tirades that PT vs. OT subject matter causes. It's not an all out lovefest everywhere, but I haven't seen any other subject (other than religion and politics) cause such mean spiritedness as this does.

Hmm, interesting thought. I personally never intend any type of "mean spiritedness." I merely share my ideas and conclusions. But I suppose when people disagree, it is a natural result to have animosity grow.


Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
I guess I just watch movies for entertainment. I don't watch them for research, camera angles, screenplay etc. like you, or maybe some others do.

I'm not "in the biz". I don't ever intend to make a film. I don't see the same faults you do in the PT as you do, and I'm guessing MiniRock doesn't either.
I tried to have a discussion with a friend once regarding something or other. Can't remember. Anyway, it was something that I admittedly knew very little about, so when I said "how hard can it be?" well I got an earful of attitude. Probably rightly so. It's easy to sit on the sidelines and not see the subtleties that go into making something fun and interesting for others.

A girl I work with often is really into Outrigger Canoeing. It doesn't interest me a whole lot but she's really into it. So when I said, how hard can it be, once, (today in fact I think) she proceeded to tell me exactly what the challenges and skills were. Cool! I didn't know, so I listened and learned instead of taking the attitude that it was my opinion and nothing she said would change my mind. Well, I'm still not all that interested in it, but now I know that if I ever do try it, I'm in for a steep learning curve.

Life is all about letting go of preconceived notions and discovering new things. I've learned a lot about screenwriting and the filmmaking process in the past decade +. My cross to bear here is that apparently none of that experience makes a lick of difference because apparently everyone's opinion regarding storytelling is just as valid as the next guys. I'm not talking about liking or not liking. I'm talking about the filmmaker doing it the right way or the wrong way...and yes, there is a right way and a not so right way. Or maybe a "way" and a "better" way would be a better way to describe it. But few people here give a damn about opening their minds to perhaps learning something that they didn't know before about this art/business called filmmaking. Here, it's all about "opinions" and making everybody feel good. Everyone winds up wrong sometimes, even me (just admitted fault on some other post today). But the prevailing attitude is that just because it is "art," every opinion is correct and we can all "interpret" anything we please from the story, the filmmakers actual intentions be-damned.


Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
There are plenty of things in the OT that don't make sense to me, but it was never something I thought about, until I started reading these posts about how one triliogy is better than the other.
I don't know that the "negative" posts were ever intended by anyone (I know I didn't start all of them) to "ruin" the films for anyone. If I "interpret" ;) the situation correctly, the questioning posts were meant to discuss the issues and try to sincerely figure out what the hell we had just seen. Maybe this would have happened with the OT films as well, had the internet been around then. Who knows. But it's silly to play conjecture games like that.

What we do know is that a great many people were dissappointed by the Prequels (so far) and some of us, in our own way, are trying to figure out why. If that means that the middle three chapters of the saga are "better," then so be it. That's up to the individual to decide.

What I know for myself is that the writing was ****-poor and half-arsed in TPM and nearly as bad for AOTC. I'm not happy with Lucas for doing that, particularly because I know for a fact that it almost wasn't going to happen that way. He nearly hired a very well known writer to do TPM for him, but Lucas's ego-driven prejudice against unions and guilds (the Writer's Guild in particular in this case) prevented the deal from happening. As a result, Lucas wrote the thing himself and dissappointed a lot of people in the process. It boiled down to his unwillingness to pay a guy what he deserved to do it. Money was the reason behind this. Frickin' :greedy: .


Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
I never questioned why the Imperials let the pod go, how the droids just happened to turn up at the Lars homestead, how Obi-Wan happened upon Luke in the middle of the desert, etc. etc. etc. I just watched the movies, and enjoyed them.
You know, neither did I for those films. Why not? Some people here think that it's because we were just "younger" then, which implies that children are inherently dumber and incapable of seeing beyond bright shiny objects. I think rather that we just didn't think about those things because the rest of the story was so well constructed and entertaining, the questions never crossed our minds. And even if they did, the answers didn't impact the plot very much at all. In short, the vast majority of "problems" in the OT films are mere blips...hardly worth mentioning at all.

Whereas the problems in the Prequels lay at their very foundations. The path from Point A to Point B doesn't always make a lot of sense. Some things are thrown in at random without thought as to how they might impact a later scene or plot device that has been previously established (in the original films). Whacked stuff like that. It's like a screenwriting 101 student's work, not that of an industry veteran who should know better.


Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
I guess I'm just a "weekend fan" :( ;)
Maybe you are, maybe you aren't, but there's nothing wrong with being any kind of fan. We're born, we do "stuff," then we die. It's that stuff in the middle that is life. Choose what you like then do it until you croak. If somebody else doesn't like it, tough.


Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
And no...I'm not changing my mind :) To me....the PT is every bit of SW as the OT. I have my favorites among the 5 we have so far, and I like each one for different reasons. Right now, if I was told I could only watch one SW movie again for the rest of my days, it would probably be AOTC. As much as I LOVE the OT, it's old, not that that's a BAD thing. I've seen them all, literally 100s of times. I probably won't watch them again until after Ep 3 is out. I'm just burned out on them after 25 years.
I limit my viewings of any of them to once a year, if that. Somehow, my toys and visiting this site keep the interest alive for me. But even with as few viewings as I've had (relatively speaking), somehow I manage to recall almost all the dialogue and action, at least from the OT films. I'm not as versed in the Prequels, so I have to do some looking up every now and again.


Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
The PT has alot more to offer (in my opinion). Little things I may not have noticed after the 1st 10 or so viewings. Things that GL slipped in that relate to the OT.
I'd like to hear about those things. :)



Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
The effects (although eyecandy) are far superior (again, IMO) to the OT. To have aliens interacting with the actors, as opposed to being rubber masks in the shadows or puppets with limited movement.
The FX are just tools. In some cases in the Prequels, I think that the CG method works quite well. In other cases, I believe that a "real" puppet, mask, or model would have been the better choice. All the films have their strong FX moments as well as their weak ones.


Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
I guess I'm just the kind of sucker GL was hoping to have viewing the PT.
:) I truly don't think he set out to find "suckers." I believe that he had the best of intentions. But somehow, we all allow personal obstacles to get in the way of what's best. In his case, I think that his divorce, his kids, numerous failures (ie. Howard the Duck), the general "cold" reception he gets from Hollywood, and some other things all contributed to his state of mind when starting up the franchise again...and not for the better. He allowed some extraneous issues to cloud his judgment which resulted in a less than stellar creative display. In the old days, he recognized, allowed for, and encouraged other people to help him create this fantastic world. But now, he has tightened the reins. Not the best way to go in such a collaborative business.





Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
edit: I never said I wanted you to go away Stilla. :D

Thanks! :) Don't think I'm not aware of what a pain in the arse I can be. I believe the things I say just as strongly as I know that I'm sitting here typing away. If I don't know the answer to something, I'll ask. If I have a mild opinion about something, I'll offer it. And when I KNOW something beyond a reasonable doubt, I'll fight tooth and nail. In this age of political correctness and making everyone "feel good about themselves," my approach isn't exactly common. But thanks for hanging in there. :) I do appreciate your time.