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Bel-Cam Jos
05-03-2003, 05:58 PM
I just thought of this. Someone else probably has, too, so I doubt it's an original idea. The Classic Trilogy was full of teaching.
- Obi-Wan taught Luke about the Force and life.
- Yoda taught Luke about the Force.
- Han taught Luke about "reality."
- There were more "battle plan" scenes.
- The Emperor tried to teach Luke about the Dark Side.
Where were the teaching moments in the Prequels? I think that is quite possibly the reason why so many fans dislike them. Qui-Gon just threw out occasional comments about the Force, but with little depth to them. Fables and myths are usually full of lessons and morals, and that's what made SW such a universally accepted and loved series.
Who'd have thought that school-type lessons would make a movie better, eh? Other thoughts?

Beast
05-03-2003, 06:06 PM
Obi-Wan's been a padawan his entire life, but you do get that stuff when Qui-Gon and Anakin are together. I don't know about depth, but "Your focus determines your reality" is pretty heavy. You also get him offering wise words and lessons to Jar Jar and Obi-Wan as well.

And then there was Yoda and the Younglings in E2. Sure we missed a lot of Anakin's training between films, but we didn't see all of Luke's either. Of course there isn't as much as there is in the OT, because that's dealing with Luke coming of age and learning these things. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

TheDarthVader
05-03-2003, 07:48 PM
Sounds good to me JJB. I agree with that. We don't get to see much of Anakin's training. I wish that we could have but we don't get to see it. (Because of yoda saying, "much fear I feel in his training.") oh well. ;)

Jargo
05-03-2003, 08:20 PM
It's also more focused on one or two locations with Luke's training whereas the training of Anakin is more on the hoof. Obi-Wan tends to spout stuff at him wherever they are. It's more like an older/younger brother thing between Obi and Anakin it seems to me. More familiar and less formal. Perhaps Anakin is actually also teaching obi a thing or two. Obi is certainly a hell of a lot more mellow in AOTC than in TPM. Obi in TPM is really brittle and rigid to me. And let's not forget Yoda scolding Obi at the end of AOTC for calling the war a victory. Reminding us that Obi wasn't really ready to take on a padawan after all. Not a natural teacher because he isn't mature enough which is part of the reason Anakin is out of control perhaps. Look how long it takes Obi to control Anakin in the gunship when he wants to go back for spudme. Anakin is more than obi can handle. Obi is little more than a padawan himself. Still hanging onto Yodas apron strings and having to ask for help to find a planet on a map and too thick to figure out the puzzle of the missing records for himself. Obi-Wan, always the learner. Only becoming a true master once he is struck down and becomes one with the force.
And we do get to see some Jedi learning in the library, there in the background sat at tables with holobooks. So there is learning in the PT. :)

mini-rock
05-03-2003, 10:44 PM
There was plenty of "teaching moments" in TPM and AOTC, and actually I believe there are more in the prequels so far than the OT. TPM pretty much starts off with a "teaching moment" with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan on the Trade Federation Starship.

Obi-Wan -"I have a bad feeling about this."

Qui-Gon - "I don't sense anything."

Obi-Wan - "It's not about the mission master, it's something elsewhere...elusive."

Qui-Gon - "Don't center on your anxieties Obi-Wan keep your concentration here and now where it belongs."

Obi-Wan - "But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future."

Qui-Gon - "Not at the expense of the moment, be mindful of the living force young padawan.

Something like that. The first "learning moment" in ANH was with Ben & Luke at Ben's home, and that's like 1/4 through the film.

Also, some of the "learning moments" in the prequels are different b/c it's between a master and a padawan, or council member & knight, etc. where in the OT it was between a former Jedi Knight, and a punk *** kid. Everytime Luke was being taught something it semed like he was doing an impression of Conan Obrien doing an impression of Pres. Bush. "HUH?!"

I do agree with EJ about Obi-Wan not being ready to take a padawan, especially Anakin, but with the exception of Mace and Yoda, I doubt any other Jedi would have been ready to take on an apprentice like Anakin either.

Both the OT and prequels have some great learning moments, some with more depth than others, but still learning moments. :)

stillakid
05-04-2003, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by Bel-Cam Jos
I just thought of this. Someone else probably has, too, so I doubt it's an original idea. The Classic Trilogy was full of teaching.
- Obi-Wan taught Luke about the Force and life.
- Yoda taught Luke about the Force.
- Han taught Luke about "reality."
- There were more "battle plan" scenes.
- The Emperor tried to teach Luke about the Dark Side.
Where were the teaching moments in the Prequels? I think that is quite possibly the reason why so many fans dislike them. Qui-Gon just threw out occasional comments about the Force, but with little depth to them. Fables and myths are usually full of lessons and morals, and that's what made SW such a universally accepted and loved series.
Who'd have thought that school-type lessons would make a movie better, eh? Other thoughts?

I agree that there weren't any true teaching sequences as you suggest. Those other Prequel "teaching" moments were throw-aways that didn't really say anything pertinent beyond trying to be cheap foreshadowing elements.

But for me, it isn't so much the "teaching moments" or lack of them that bothered me, it was the silly sci-fi/fantasy staple of a "prophecy." BUNK! Why toss one of those superstitious crappola story elements in there? Forget the fact that the "prophecy of the one" isn't explained at all, it's just unnecessary. Why couldn't Anakin's motivation to become evil have been that he was just a disenfranchised youth? Why toss Midichlorians and prophecies into it as cheap and easy plot devices to advance the story? That only leads to cheap and silly "teaching" side-bars that do nothing but try to prop up the weak foundation of the plot.

mini-rock
05-04-2003, 03:40 AM
Now that I think about it the "teaching moments" in the OT are just repeats of what has already been said in the Prequels. Remember, GL has said that these films are to be viewed from Ep's 1-6, and this is how future generations will view it. So all the teachings in the OT will be what has already been said in the prequels. No wonder GL wants to go back and revamp the OT b/c (viewing in the correct order) the OT really has nothing going for it anymore. With the campy acting, lackluster special effects, terrible lightsaber duels, etc. the OT has no magic left. Those of us who grew up with it will always love it, but unless GL can fix them (that would be one hell of a magic trick) people will be sitting through the OT hearing crap they have already heard before in the prequels, but without the great story, awesome battles, and overall better characters that make up the prequels.

Bel-Cam Jos
05-04-2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by mini-rock
Now that I think about it the "teaching moments" in the OT are just repeats of what has already been said in the Prequels. Remember, GL has said that these films are to be viewed from Ep's 1-6, and this is how future generations will view it. So all the teachings in the OT will be what has already been said in the prequels.
That was my point. The OT had more meaning to its "teaching moments," whereas the PT seems to be more about the action than an underlying story. Yes, the who really IS Darth Sidious/Palpatine "mystery" is there, but for some reason that is weak to me. Don't gedda me wrong, I have great faith in the films, it's just that, the Classic Trilogy, she always wins for me. Heh, heh. ;)

Originally posted by mini-rock
No wonder GL wants to go back and revamp the OT b/c (viewing in the correct order) the OT really has nothing going for it anymore. With the campy acting, lackluster special effects, terrible lightsaber duels, etc. the OT has no magic left. Those of us who grew up with it will always love it, but unless GL can fix them (that would be one hell of a magic trick) people will be sitting through the OT hearing crap they have already heard before in the prequels, but without the great story, awesome battles, and overall better characters that make up the prequels.
Whoa. Them's fightin' words to some. :rolleyes: That's like saying a 1970 Mustang's not as good as a 2000 model because it doesn't have a CD player, an airbag, or power windows. The "magic" for me is in the OT, and a different enjoyment for the Prequels. I like them both, but for various reasons. Lackluster special effects? I still love 'em today. If E3 has those stupid Matrix/Hidden Dragon hang-in-mid-air fights, I'll lose some respect for the director. SW is ita own series, and I think that the acting has been true to the characterization that's been established.

When all 6 films are available for $65 to see in one theater for 14 consecutive hours,* I will look forward to E4-6 that day even more!

* - Prediction not yet confirmed.

scruffziller
05-04-2003, 11:32 AM
The scene with the younglings, Yoda, and Obi is one of THEE best in AOTC. Listening to the insight and humor of Yoda is reminiscent of ESB.

stillakid
05-04-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock
Now that I think about it the "teaching moments" in the OT are just repeats of what has already been said in the Prequels. Remember, GL has said that these films are to be viewed from Ep's 1-6, and this is how future generations will view it. So all the teachings in the OT will be what has already been said in the prequels. No wonder GL wants to go back and revamp the OT b/c (viewing in the correct order) the OT really has nothing going for it anymore. With the campy acting, lackluster special effects, terrible lightsaber duels, etc. the OT has no magic left. Those of us who grew up with it will always love it, but unless GL can fix them (that would be one hell of a magic trick) people will be sitting through the OT hearing crap they have already heard before in the prequels, but without the great story, awesome battles, and overall better characters that make up the prequels.

Is this guy for real? The OT has nothing going for it? Has MR actually seen any other movies beyond Star Wars episodes?

For one, it was GL's decision to start at Episode IV, not one. Because of that, he can't go back and undo what he has already done. The OT is out there and loved dearly...as is. He can always change whatever he wants, but the fact remains that most people will always enjoy the originals more and they will like him and his decisions less and less. The OT has ALL of it's magic left but the Prequels and their lack of originality and depth are sapping the life from the saga.:cry:

mini-rock
05-04-2003, 03:43 PM
You & I have a different POV BCJ, and that's cool. Not lookin to start a fight dude :D. Just stating my opinion. Actually, I think it's kinda funny that people can make some not so positive comments about the prequels, and everything moves on, but once someone has something even mildly negative to say about the OT people get in an uproar, and go after the post-er like a mob. Doesn't bother me though, like I said I think it's kinda funny. I will admit I use to be the same way. I was an OT sympathizer too, but it wasn't until I got TPM home on DVD, and REALLY watched it that I saw the true magic of the saga. Even if I was the only one on the planet who liked the prequels better than the OT it wouldn't change my POV. :)

I remember before the release of AOTC fans being concerned about the Matrix style fights being in the film. There wasn't, and I really doubt GL would go in with something like that. I'm sure we will see some amazing fights in EP3, but no slo-mo or "bullet time" stuff there. SW has always had it's own style, and with the prequels the bar has ben raised considerably compared to the mediocre fights of the OT, and all without Matrix slo- mo, camera pan stuff.

Yeah if all 6 episodes were re-released in the theater, even though I have seen 4-6 at least 500 times each, I'd be first in line.:)

TheDarthVader
05-04-2003, 04:59 PM
I thought of a teaching moment in AOTC. When Kenobi tells Anakin not to loose his lightsaber again because "this is your life". Hehe! ;) I like that line.

Bel-Cam Jos
05-04-2003, 05:28 PM
Because there was no Internet around when the Classic Trilogy was released (yes, I know it was "invented" in the late 60s, but I'd never heard of it), that's why it's "untouchable" when it comes to criticism. People just seemed to like it as is then. It has taken on almost religious undertones, and as we've seen on this site, that can get messy.
I have no problems with anyone analyzing the films, and you can dislike them, too. I just thought that the depth of issues was deeper than has been shown in the Prequels. So far. Still have one more to go, and I for one feel that Episode III: Attack of the Empire's New Menacing Return Policy will fix everything.
You heard me right; everything. Even smog and political corruption. :rolleyes:

JediTricks
05-04-2003, 10:19 PM
Bel-cam, seems like an original idea to me, certainly an original presentation.

I think this "teaching" element of the prequels should have been vital (I even mentioned that in my "total rewrite" of Ep 1 from back in the day ;)) but because Ep 1 doesn't really focus on any 1 character, we only get little asides of teaching that seem to come with little or no wisdom. Ep 2 is a little different, I think they tried to put teaching into it a little more but it came off more as an uneasy teaching assault on the student where Obi-Wan is a massive jerk in some ways - his style must change dramatically between the PT and OT, yet I don't see how they're going to show that change.

And as for the Younglings scene JJB mentioned, I think that falls a little flat because we're not properly introduced into the teaching, the kids are VERY young and just waving their sabers around like at pinatas, there seems to be no active teaching, just mostly practice - the scene feels more like Padawan daycare than teaching. I think for the "fable effect" to work, the audience has to be invested in the character(s) learning the fable, but the PT doesn't seem to capture that.


Originally posted by TheDarthVader
I thought of a teaching moment in AOTC. When Kenobi tells Anakin not to loose his lightsaber again because "this is your life". Hehe! ;) I like that line. Yeah, it came off a little too preachy in execution IMO, but the idea was sound.

mini-rock
05-04-2003, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
I thought of a teaching moment in AOTC. When Kenobi tells Anakin not to loose his lightsaber again because "this is your life". Hehe! ;) I like that line.

I agree, that was great :D. If only a cool "teaching moment" had been thought up like that back in '77. Just another reason why the Prequels set the standard.:)

stillakid
05-04-2003, 11:39 PM
Anyhow, the absolutely coolest "teaching moment" already came in the midst of The Empire Strikes Back, courtesy of Lawrence Kasdan, with Yoda's extremely eloquent explanation of The Force backed by John Williams' stirring score. What's more, it was capped off by the wonderful non-verbal imagery of the XWing floating through the sky and coming to rest.

dr_evazan22
05-05-2003, 09:43 AM
Stilla, that's an excellent scene! The end of the scene is great too-

"I don't believe it!"

"That is why you fail."

Qui Gon's "Your focus determines your reality" is reminiscent of that. As is the scene from Matrix where Neo attempts to jump from building to building.

RooJay
05-05-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Bel-Cam Jos
Where were the teaching moments in the Prequels? I think that is quite possibly the reason why so many fans dislike them. Qui-Gon just threw out occasional comments about the Force, but with little depth to them. Fables and myths are usually full of lessons and morals, and that's what made SW such a universally accepted and loved series.
Who'd have thought that school-type lessons would make a movie better, eh? Other thoughts?

Look closely and you will see that the entire prequel trilogy (the entire arc of the story) is one massive "teaching moment", one huge lesson/moral - that being (and forgive me for using the cliche here) that "with great power comes great responsibility" and that absolute power corrupts absolutely. We see it with Anakin primarily, but his journey (the hero's fall as opposed to the hero's ascension that we see in the classic trilogy) is shadowed ever so subtly by that of Palpatine's story (he may or may not have been corrupted by power, but is certainly an example of how absolute power brings with it absolute corruption).
I have no interest in getting into an argument again about how I feel the prequels deserve my appreciation, but I honestly believe, despite all of the perceived narrative failings of the prequels, that George Lucas is certainly trying to tell us a very distinctive and singular story. I maintain that, regardless of whether or not he has thoroughly thought out all of the specifics, he is definitely going somewhere with this story. Like Bel-Cam, I also tend to believe that this will all come together in the end.

JediTricks
05-05-2003, 09:01 PM
RooJay, that wouldn't be a "teaching moment" then, now would it? :D

Also, I don't see how Spidey's "with great power comes great responsibility" is being told in the prequels; Anakin's penchant to be bad is foretold by Mace and Yoda before the kid even starts the training. Perhaps it's a lesson about "with great knowledge comes great responsibilty" about Obi-Wan, but Lucas himself has said that the films are about Anakin. From what I've seen in Eps 1 and 2, the only way for Anakin not to become evil is if he is never given the power to begin with - that is a much different message (though not out of the realm of Lucas' handling, the guy has never been very egalitarian in his storytelling in the SW movies).

RooJay
05-05-2003, 10:56 PM
originally posted by JediTricks
that wouldn't be a "teaching moment" then, now would it?

No, not exactly...but those were someone else's words.
"Moment" can also be defined as a significant period in time. Such as - a great moment in world history. In this case, the period in time in which Anakin is trained and eventually becomes Darth Vader.


Also, Anakin becoming evil is certainly not a forgone conclusion to the other characters in the movies. Otherwise the council would obviously never have granted Obi-Wan permission to train him. It only seems a foregone conclusion to us because we already know how this is gonna turn out. The council has obviously decided that it's entirely possible that Anakin will not turn out bad and it's therefore worth the risk to trust him with to develop his potential "power" and with all of the "responsibility" that goes along with it. Remeber that they are hoping that he will be the one who brings balance to the Force. We are being told the story of how the innocent child we meet in Phantom Menace is given the opportunity to develop and wield this great power, and what harnessing that power does to him personally. Unlike Spidey, Anakin allows himself to become corrupted by that power rather than using it to aid and benefit others; different results, same basic concept.

PoggleTheGreater
05-10-2003, 07:27 PM
There is more teaching in the CT because much of it is about how Luke learns of the ways of the force, good and dark. In the PT, knowledge of the force is alot more common, and an "every-day thing." I think one of the main differences in the trilogies is that the CT is more mythalogical and the PT is less because the PT is the forgotten "myth" of the CT. The PT are different types of films; they are more adventure serial style and seem less epic because the true epic of the PT is very subtle and won't be fully known until III. The SW epic is really like 1 epic composed of two epics, each composed of 3 epics.