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Tycho
05-05-2003, 12:41 AM
Do you think Lucas will be able to fully bridge the gap between the Prequels & the Original Trilogy with Episode III?

Right now while we know little or nothing of confirmed spoilers, let's discuss what our readers' expectations are.

Answer the poll question and feel free to speculate about the plot, But NO SPOILERS are allowed! - and that's ok, there really aren't any.

Note: the news about 1 recurring Classic character possibly being in Episode 3, though on the Official Site's newspage, IS condidered a spoiler. So please don't discuss this character's appearance. It's not important for answering the question of whether Lucas will tie the gap between the trilogies with Episode Three, anyway.

That being said: what do you think?

Editor thanks JediTricks for suggesting the poll, and predicts Stillakid has his answer already archived with duplicate copies ;)

Tycho
05-05-2003, 01:03 AM
I'll just point out:

1) Recent Star Wars books (always scrutinized by Lucasfilm) put Episode 3 happening only 2 years after the Battle of Geonosis.

(That would make Luke & Leia 20 years old in ANH)

[Seems too short of time for the Clone Wars IMO]

2) I doubt we will see ALL the Jedi killed off by the end of the movie. There are 10,000 Jedi Knights (in teams of at least 2, on some 5,000 planets). In the 20 (or 18) years before ANH, Vader has to have something to do...

3) R2-D2 and C-3PO will not be delivered to the hands of Captain Antilles. They have to have their "Droids" (comic and cartoon) adventures I think - so we don't know exactly how they come back to Leia's family's service (or perhaps they were just lost during some portion of those 20 years).

4) Luke will not learn to whine about his chores by the end of the movie. He will develop this ability during the gap between movies.

5) Han will not meet Chewie, and Lando's origins may not be shown.

6) Tarkin, Mon Mothma, Admiral Ackbar, Garven Dreis (Red Leader), might be detailed a little.

7) The Rebel Alliance will not be seen established in its familiar form, but Bail Organa might be deeply considering it. Corellia may not have its senator (Garm Bel Ibis) play a part in the movie, thus we don't see it's total formation (with Bel Ibis, Mothma, and Organa).

8) JarJar and the Gungans will probably die, Naboo will be wiped out, most likely.

9) The Death Star might get started. Or at least the Contractors' Association members will start bidding on the job.

10) How Yoda ends up on Dagobah, and Luke with his Aunt and Uncle should be seen.

11) I doubt, and hope we will not see Hayden Christensen's face while he's wearing Vader's armor. His identity will be a mystery. (I strongly predict and hope for Obi-Wan having a new apprentice by the time of the next movie, so in ANH he won't be such an obvious liar to those who watch all of SW as one 12 hour movie, when they've never seen it before).

12) Stormtroopers may see an appearance. Palpatine will declare himself Emperor. There might be a new source of Clone DNA (from a relative of Han Solo?)

13) Padme won't die, but we'll know that she's going to, and exactly how and why. Leia's existence will be hidden in the film. They won't make it obvious that Padme had twins.

14) Vader will know that Obi-Wan lives, and that he's watching over Luke in exile. That's why Skywalker's name's not changed. I think they'll make a deal - and also why Vader loyally serves the Emperor (to keep him from destroying Luke). I think the last time they'll meet, he'll be Vader, but they won't fight, and instead settle on this. "You should not have come back!" Tarkin never knew about it though.

I'm sure I forgot other stuff, but that's what I'd predict.

Oh 15) Fett will "kill" Mace, but he won't actually. Mace will vanish in the Force, proving it can be done, since they heard Qui-Gon's voice in the Force.

16) Vader will kill Wat Tambler, Dooku (while still Anakin), Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi. Some good lightsaber battles there...

17) Dooku will be revealed to be Anakin's father. I hope. It pushes him to think the Jedi hid that from him and let him murder his own father, plus didn't let him save his mother, or Padme (who he thinks died while pregnant until later, as Vader, he realizes he was wrong about that, and makes a deal with Obi-Wan to raise his son).

QLD
05-05-2003, 01:42 AM
You say no spoilers, but how do you know these aren't spoilers????


:crazed:

2-1B
05-05-2003, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by Lando In My Pants
You say no spoilers, but how do you know these aren't spoilers????

Because Tycho knows they are just wacky fantasies . . . do you really think Lucas will bother to allow for the Droids cartoon adventures ? :confused:

We're not supposed to talk about Chewbacca actually being in E3, yet we can speculate that Han will not meet him in the movie? That's . . . uh . . . well that makes no sense.

Beast
05-05-2003, 01:58 AM
Agreed with Caesar. Besides, the fact that it was officially announced on StarWars.com means that it's not a spoiler. It would only technically be a spoiler, if it was from a spy report. It's actually released information. Just like James Earl Jones being needed for around 5 minutes for voicing Darth Vader. :)

Knowing the character is in the film isn't a spoiler, Steve snd JT already confirmed that when JEJ was revealed. Now if some Spy Report reveals what he does in the movie, thats another story. By the way, Naboo can't be destroyed Lucas/Lucasfilm signed off on the planet for Star Wars Galaxies. Same with Gungans.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
05-05-2003, 02:17 AM
Geez, I don't know about Dooku being Ani's father.

BTW, I voted Yes, completely.:)

Tonysmo
05-05-2003, 02:43 AM
I voted not completely.. While I certainly hope they do, and they certainly may... with the likes of Stilla runnin rampant on these forums, I can only assume he will never fully agree that the transition is complete... ah heck - its anyones guess.. Im just glad were starting to get trickles of info on it.. MORE MORE I SAY!!

skeeziks22
05-05-2003, 05:03 AM
1) Palpitine takes care of Darth Sidious when Sidous begins to gain too much power and threatens Palpitines seat... I say they are two different people.

2) Anakin begins whoopin' up on Dooku and will strike him down though defenseless when Obi-Wan steps in and gets the backlash... then finally must put Anakin in his place. Dooku escapes and kills many jedi thus setting Anakin (now recovered by Palpatine and healing) to draw on the Dark side for revenge on Dooku and Obi-Wan.

3) Han is in the movie, but in some small way, and accidentally saves the hide of a Jedi from a vengeful Boba Fett (Han is about ten during this episode) thus sparking the life long "feud"

4) Padme can't die because Leia remembers her real mother just faintly in ROTJ when talking with Luke. She instead wisps away with Leia to Alderaan and it is discovered that not only Leia's "father" (Bail) is killed with the death of the planet, but also her real mother.

5) Yoda chases Dooku to Dagobah and kills him them, thus releasing the dark energy that so well masks his presence on the planet for 20+ years to come... he goes with Obi-Wan, but he must leave before they find Dooku to "rescue" Anakin... this is why Obi-Wan knows where Yoda is, yet why Yoda is stuck there... Obi-Wan can still feel Yoda, and knows he must not go back in fear of the life of a newborn Luke.

Hell, I could write this thing for George if he'd just ask!

jedimarvin
05-05-2003, 08:17 AM
Well I hope we don't see everyone in episode 3. I think it would be a little silly for a ten yar old Han to show up. Not everyone's lives have to be connected. I would like to see Mon Mothma and Tarkin though.

I don't think George is going to bridge it completely, even if he could. Didn't he say he was gonna add some stuff to the original trilogy after III is finished....like Leia remembering Padme? Maybe that was all just a nasty rumor I picke dup somehwere...it does sound like something George would do though.

derek
05-05-2003, 08:19 AM
if the past is any indication, all this speculation will end around the end of the summer/early fall!:sur: all those low paid interns, effects artists, and extras will start leaking stuff out just as they did with the last film.

rdrunr89
05-05-2003, 08:33 AM
I voted for not completely and I'll try to explain why without doing the spoiler thing, so mods get ready to possibly edit. =)

First off, what we know, is that its about 20 years prior to A New Hope (ANH). Second, there is a lot in ANH that actually could be answered as questions to what happened to? For instance, (and i'm borrowing from a post on theforce.net), the supposed Jedi purge, Obi Wan tells Luke of Vader helping to hunt down and destroy the Jedis. Do we need to see this? Not really because we are told about it in ANH. Just like we won't see a lot of the Clone Wars because it was starting in AOTC and ends in EP3. We know Obi Wan served in it, based on Leia's statement in the recording from R2 in ANH. The key point here is to remember that its "Episode 3" while it may be the final one for Lucas, its the middle of the story. You just need to look at them in order. I'm sure there are some things that Lucas should answer in Ep3 like the disappearing when a Jedi dies, but again, most questions can be answered by watching ANH.

Thoughts?

dr_evazan22
05-05-2003, 09:17 AM
[QUOTE]We're not supposed to talk about Chewbacca actually being in E3, yet we can speculate that Han will not meet him in the movie? That's . . . uh . . . well that makes no sense.[QUOTE]

LOL!

I voted for "pretty much", but there's a lot to fill in, and a lot I want to see. There were some good idea's here in terms of plot and all, but I'll refrain from speculating.

Except for official news I've been spoiler free for the past year and I intend to stay that way. Like a really bad habit though, it's calling out to me

JangoFart
05-05-2003, 10:13 AM
Good LORD, Tycho!!

That's quite the non-spoiler laden rant, eh?

Just a bit of FYI, folks: speculation of possible/probable events=spoiler; discussion of official items=not spoiler

Since that wasn't very clear, I thought I'd throw that out there.

J

zeroplate
05-05-2003, 10:22 AM
well, if you want the movie to be a plot filler then you are going to get a very lame, tedious movie made only for die-hard fans. happily, i'm sure lucas has no plans of going in this direction, and the movie will just be a story about anakin becoming vaser. that's all the movie needs. the star wars ancillary titles like comics and books and so forth can fill in all the minutae as far as i'm concerned. i'm just hoping that the story of why anakin turns and the consequences of the jedi's short-sightedness are revealed.

i think theories about boba fett killing windu and dooku being a big part of the story are really reaching. we've seen that kind of stuff (along with searches for power crystals???) in some fan-written scripts. dooku is just going to go away or be killed and boba fett may try, but won't succeed in killing mace windu. face it, boba fett in the movies is an incompetent boob. his lore and fan-worship is based on his costume and on the stories told about him in other media, but in the movies, he hardly ever does anything and then he dies. i like boba fett, but he's a punk and mace windu should be able to handle him.

JangoFart
05-05-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by skeeziks22
1) Palpitine takes care of Darth Sidious when Sidous begins to gain too much power and threatens Palpitines seat... I say they are two different people.

5) Yoda chases Dooku to Dagobah and kills him them, thus releasing the dark energy that so well masks his presence on the planet for 20+ years to come... he goes with Obi-Wan, but he must leave before they find Dooku to "rescue" Anakin... this is why Obi-Wan knows where Yoda is, yet why Yoda is stuck there... Obi-Wan can still feel Yoda, and knows he must not go back in fear of the life of a newborn Luke.

Cool!! I've always said that they were two different folks. However, I think that the one we know as "Palpatine" is the clone of the true Palpatine, which is Darth Sidious. I think Sidious will just kill him at the end of EP3, as he will no longer be necessary. The "Palpatine" clone that we all know and loathe is not a sith or, for that matter, truly evil - he just does as he's told. I think this explains his ability to walk amongst the Jedi elite without their having a clue as to who/what he is. Let's face it - if the Jedi can't determine that Darth Sidious, soon-to-be aka "Emperor Palpatine", is walking among them, they deserve to die, damnit!

And, I like your explanation of the Yoda background story. A little different than I imagined, but I like it.

J

Darth Spectre
05-05-2003, 10:24 AM
Well, Han could show up because based on the ages established in ANH, he was 35 while Luke & Leia were 18. So Han would only be 17 at the time of Ep III. That is certainly an age where a character can still impact the storyline.

I still expect Anakin to kill Dooku, not Yoda. Though it is possible to me that Anakin could do this on Dagobah, establishing the Dark Side presence on the planet.

I don't expect Obi-Wan and Vader to meet in Ep III, though it is possible. It would allow Obi to clearly know that Anakin survived their duel, though of course, he could know this by instinct and his knowledge of the Force.

I just hope that Lucas either titles Ep III Fall of the Jedi or Revenge of the Sith, since both would mirror ROTJ and provide a nice symmetry between the two concluding chapters.

drewbaccawookiee
05-05-2003, 11:14 AM
Here's what I'd like to see: Episode III ends with the birth of Luke and Leia. Before her death, Amidala plans to separate and hide the twins from a corrupt Anakin. She manages to to personally deliver Leia to Bail Organa, but on the run from Anakin, she is forced to jettison Luke off into space, setting the coordinates of the infant's escape pod for the Lars residence on Tattooine. Amidala is killed immediately afterwards. And if Palpatine isn't Anakin's father I'll eat my hat (or something far worse). This just makes sense. That's why Anakin is on Tatooine in Episode I; Palpatine knows he can continue to build his Empire while Anakin is safely hidden away. Palpatine uses his mind contrl to make Shmi think that there's been some sort of Immaculate conception. In fact, I think that when the Jedi (Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan) unexpectedly find Anakin on Tattoine, Palpatine decides to let them train Anakin so he can later be brought over to the dark side. This way he can continue to maintain his Empire. Palpatine IS Anakin's father. This way we get to see a paralleled story in which young Anakin and Young Luke are presented with a similar set of problems, but they end up making different decisions and we get to see their stories veer off into different directions, only to ultimately intertwine.

OC47150
05-05-2003, 11:49 AM
I think it's going to be a challenge, whatever GL decides to do. I think he'll do the best job that he can but gaps will remain.

zeroplate
05-05-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by JangoFart
However, I think that the one we know as "Palpatine" is the clone of the true Palpatine, which is Darth Sidious.

everyone is entitled to an opinion i guess, but what would even lead you to suggest that this is an option? there doesn't seem to be any evidence in the movies to suggest that palpatine is a clone. what would be the point? this is where fan speculation just turns into wild fan-fiction. i'm glad the fans aren't writing the scripts. :)

JangoFart
05-05-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by zeroplate
everyone is entitled to an opinion i guess, but what would even lead you to suggest that this is an option? there doesn't seem to be any evidence in the movies to suggest that palpatine is a clone. what would be the point? this is where fan speculation just turns into wild fan-fiction. i'm glad the fans aren't writing the scripts. :)

No, there is no direct evidence in any of the flicks that Palpatine is a clone. What there is at this point, however, is a STRONG indication that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person. My extrapolation from what we're given is that I don't see how the most evil man in the galaxy is having tea and scrumpets with the most pure men and women in the galaxy and none of them have a clue.

What would lead me to "even suggest this as an option"?? Well, as I said, the man who is the ulitmate in evil, Palpatine, is walking amongst the highest of the Jedi and not one of them has a clue that he is evil? True that the "dark side clouds everything", but does that "everything" include people in their own PRESENCE? I find it hard to believe that Yoda can sense the pain and anger (accepting the Dark Side) of Anakin when Anakin is half-way across the galaxy chopping up Tuskens to the point that he can hear Qui-Gon scream from the grave, but he can't tell that Palpatine is the embodiment of the Dark Side when Palpatine is standing right in front of him! Call me crazy, but that makes no sense.

If, however, Palpatine WAS NOT the evil one but only the evil one's flunky, why would Yoda be able to sense evil that wasn't there? He wouldn't and that's why he doesn't sense it - there's nothing to sense. I guess that answers your "what would be the point" question. The point would be to mask himself under the noses of the Jedi which would allow him to seem sincere in his desire to hold the Republic together; all the while working out of their presence to destroy it.

Too bad not all the fans are paying attention to the movies. Do I know this to be the case? Of course not. Do you know it to be wrong? Of course not. If, however, you have a more plausible answer to the question of how Palpatine is COMPLETELY masked under the noses of the Jedi Council, I'd love to hear it.

And, BTW, I think it will be Anakin who kills Dooku, not anyone else. This would allow him to take his place at Palpatine's side - like he was trying to get Luke to do by killing Vader. Now, I don't have any secret video tape showing Lucas acting this scene out with Ms. Piggy standing in for Palpatine - it's just wild speculation.

J

zeroplate
05-05-2003, 12:51 PM
well, for what it's worth, here would be my take on it:

The Jedi are arrogant and stoic to a fault. The whole idea of having no connections to people, the emotional detachment, and the Jedi playing the role of the 'old world' religious leaders all points to them as being severly flawed. What makes Luke different from the Jedi that have gone before him is that he places more value on the lives of his friends and family than he does on the Jedi code of behavior and training. Anakin does the same thing, but obviously loses the battle to stay good (and we don't know how yet.) Luke wins that battle (and ultimately, Vader does too I guess) and Luke shows that you have to have a balance between these high-minded ideals that the Jedi stand for and a more basic connection to the people around you.

It's not enough to just be connected to the whole universe through the force-- it's a case of seeing the whole and not the parts. The Jedi to me are painted in a very negative light. Sure, they are great warriors and they are revered, learned people, but they are unable to see what's going on with Palpatine because they are too stuck in their old ways. They believe that the Jedi order and the rules surrounding it should always conquer all, but in truth, they are lacking what most humans would consider very basic human qualities.

If you look at Star Wars as a mythic story arc, it's kind of a classic tale of the old, established powers-that-be crumbling under their own failure to grow and change. Anakin and Luke represent varied attempts at changing with time and bringing more humanity and empathy and love to the Jedi order.

If you follow out the logic of Yoda's warnings to Luke, then Luke should not confront Vader and the emperor, should not help his friends, and should stay with Yoda to complete his training. Well, in the end, obviously Luke made the right choice, which meant that Yoda was wrong. Of course, you could always say Yoda was telling Luke what he needed to hear, but the films don't support that. After Luke leaves, Yoda is concerned that he is going to fail... so obvioulsy he wasn't using reverse pyschology.

So, that's it. There's no reason for Palpatine and Sidious to be two different people, and in fact, this is a case where everything points to them being the same person and that conclusion makes the most sense. In the larger scale of the story, the idea that Palpatine is just a clone doesn't help. What we need to see is the fall of the Jedi not at the hands of one sith, but under the weight of their own lack of forsight. And that's what I think we'll see.

Tycho
05-05-2003, 12:54 PM
Yoda already knows.


I think Yoda (and possibly Mace) already know that Palpatine is Darth Sidious.

That knowledge combined with the final scene in "X-men" lead me to compare it to Magneto and Xavier playing chess in his plastic prison.

Palpatine has the Jedi in check: he is the Supreme Chancellor before they knew any better.

Now the Jedi would commit treason against the Republic if they killed Palpatine, Dark Lord or not.

Most of the Jedi don't know - Yoda doesn't want any vigilantes taking matters into their own hands.

But when Obi-Wan learns the truth (most likely from Dooku who tried to infiltrate the Sith to destroy them from within, IMO), he'll try to kill Palpatine, but Anakin will protect the Chancellor, believing him to be a good guy.

Palpatine will use this to declare the Jedi the enemy - that they tried to assasinate the Supreme Chancellor and "killed" his protector (Skywalker). He'll call for them to be publically lynched (2 Jedi per planet, 5000 planets - The Great Jedi Purge). Obi-Wan will be blamed, not to mention Dooku, who'll take the rap for starting the Separatists' war. But the Jedi won't fight and kill civilians (even misguided ones) or they'll be turning to the Dark Side themselves. Most will have to choose to flee, thereby not interfering with the Empire until they make themselves known somehow, then Vader comes in and finishes them (in the time between movies).

But Yoda is too smart to kill Palpatine outright, without evidence. They are playing that old chess game, just like Magneto and Xavier.

Mace and Dooku ("Too arrogant. Yes this is becoming more and more common, even amongst the older, more experienced Jedi" - Yoda was not referring to Obi-Wan, but to Mace. He already knows Mace went out of line and caused him trouble. "No he DID NOT have the authorization of the Jedi Council." But what about one unorthodox member, Master Windu?)


THAT GOES SOMETHING LIKE THIS:

Mace & Dooku discover that Syfo-Dias had become involved with the Sith (but was killed, or was in league with them, and Dooku killed him for revenge for Qui-Gon - something like that). But Dooku learned that the Kaminoans had already been contracted. He had Jango under his thumb and used him as the source for the Clones. Not evil themselves, the Clones could be used to mop up the Separatist seeds that Palpatine had himself started (as Sidious) by making those like the Trade Federation oppose the Republic. Meanwhile, after giving the Jedi this resource (they could tap in the future when they "publically" discovered it - as Mace knows), and after discovering that his son was no longer safe on Tatooine (under the distant protection of Aurra Sing, also a Dooku-recruit), Dooku leaves so as to not interfere with Anakin's training, or cause his sudden appearance in the boy's life to be disruptive (as in "Why did you leave Mom?") So Dooku has to move fast. He gains the allegiance of the very instruments Palpatine is using: the Trade Federation and other Separatists. Now while he gets closer to the Dark Lord and promises him this excuse for war, so the Sith Master can take control of the Clones, Dooku himself gets command of the Separatists, and could use them to wipe out the Republic's forces himself -even if he then intends to restore the Republic (no matter what he told the Separatists his intentions were). Dooku can play it either way. Palpatine knows this, but Dooku learned too late perhaps, that Sidious was Palpatine, and now the stakes are higher, because the Sith Lord is the legally elected ruler of the Republic. And he also knows who Dooku's son is. Dooku will have to make some compromises to keep him safe.

(in the comics, even with Durge and Ventress from "Clone Wars," the Separatists are UNDER ORDERS not to touch Obi-Wan and Anakin, that is let them survive! Dooku's orders, to be exact. Why is that?)

Anakin will have to make the same compromise: Serve Palpatine as Darth Vader, in order for Palpatine to let Obi-Wan leave in exile to raise Anakin's son. Palpatine figures he can deal with that later - if they cause him trouble like costing him a Death Star or something. Hence why Luke Skywalker's name is not changed, and he's brought up in such an obvious place to look for him.

In any case, Obi-Wan and Anakin know none of this, but Anakin delivers a mortal blow to Dooku (in effect killing a twisted, but still good guy - and his father!) Before Dooku dies, Anakin will rush off to try and save Padme (from the first time we think she'll die - and as pregnant as Laci Peterson). Meanwhile, Dooku will tell Obi-Wan what I just explained, hence why Obi-Wan tries to kill Palpatine (exactly what Yoda did not want to have happen - but Obi-Wan is emotionally invested because Anakin ran back to Palpatine because he thought Palpatine was protecting Padme for him while he was off in the Wars). Seeing Obi-Wan as a liar (no really) who never told him about Dooku before he damned himself by killing his own father, and never being allowed to save his mother (or marry and save Padme and his unborn child - didn't know there were twins of course), Anakin sees Palpatine as his last friend, and the legal Chancellor, fights Obi-Wan, only to learn the truth as Palpatine taunts the 2 combatants much like he did Luke and Vader in ROTJ. Anakin gives up and allows himself to be destroyed (only to wake up as Vader, and learn that Padme lived, and that he has to make a deal with Palpatine to let Obi-Wan go and keep Luke to raise him as he raised Anakin after Qui-Gon died).

It all makes sense to me.

JangoFart
05-05-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by zeroplate
well, for what it's worth, here would be my take on it:

The Jedi are arrogant and stoic to a fault. The whole idea of having no connections to people, the emotional detachment, and the Jedi playing the role of the 'old world' religious leaders all points to them as being severly flawed. What makes Luke different from the Jedi that have gone before him is that he places more value on the lives of his friends and family than he does on the Jedi code of behavior and training. Anakin does the same thing, but obviously loses the battle to stay good (and we don't know how yet.) Luke wins that battle (and ultimately, Vader does too I guess) and Luke shows that you have to have a balance between these high-minded ideals that the Jedi stand for and a more basic connection to the people around you.

It's not enough to just be connected to the whole universe through the force-- it's a case of seeing the whole and not the parts. The Jedi to me are painted in a very negative light. Sure, they are great warriors and they are revered, learned people, but they are unable to see what's going on with Palpatine because they are too stuck in their old ways. They believe that the Jedi order and the rules surrounding it should always conquer all, but in truth, they are lacking what most humans would consider very basic human qualities.

If you look at Star Wars as a mythic story arc, it's kind of a classic tale of the old, established powers-that-be crumbling under their own failure to grow and change. Anakin and Luke represent varied attempts at changing with time and bringing more humanity and empathy and love to the Jedi order.

If you follow out the logic of Yoda's warnings to Luke, then Luke should not confront Vader and the emperor, should not help his friends, and should stay with Yoda to complete his training. Well, in the end, obviously Luke made the right choice, which meant that Yoda was wrong. Of course, you could always say Yoda was telling Luke what he needed to hear, but the films don't support that. After Luke leaves, Yoda is concerned that he is going to fail... so obvioulsy he wasn't using reverse pyschology.

So, that's it. There's no reason for Palpatine and Sidious to be two different people, and in fact, this is a case where everything points to them being the same person and that conclusion makes the most sense. In the larger scale of the story, the idea that Palpatine is just a clone doesn't help. What we need to see is the fall of the Jedi not at the hands of one sith, but under the weight of their own lack of forsight. And that's what I think we'll see.

I like it!! I don't agree with it all, but I like it. Good counter argument!

J

Jedi Teacher
05-05-2003, 01:36 PM
Wow! Lots of wishful thinking out there. I have one questions for a few of you. Some of you seem to think that Anakin is Dooku or Palypatines son. How do you explain that?

But Shmi clearly said in E1 that there was no father?! Hmmmm . . .

Jedi Teacher
05-05-2003, 01:37 PM
oops . . . I meant Palpatine

JangoFart
05-05-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Teacher
Wow! Lots of wishful thinking out there. I have one questions for a few of you. Some of you seem to think that Anakin is Dooku or Palypatines son. How do you explain that?

But Shmi clearly said in E1 that there was no father?! Hmmmm . . .

She just doesn't want to admit she went slummin', that's all :)

I think it's just about a given that SOMEONE is Anakin's father. I've always leaned toward Palpatine, but Dooku is a plausible choice too.

Just going from what we know about Lucas' love for religious undertones and the "good vs. evil" fight, I think someone big being Anakin's father is as much of a "gimme" for EP3 as someone, somewhere getting his/her hand chopped off is a "gimme" for EP3.

J

Imperial Loyalist
05-05-2003, 01:56 PM
I voted mostly.

god, it would be great to see the formation of the "New Order". Tarkin kicking some *** subduing a system, Veers on a ground mission, guest apprearance by Thrawn controlling the space around a rogue planet, these guys are the greatest and deserve some screen time.

Getting away from the continual focus on the despotic jedi and that "hokey religion" would be such a welcome.

Having the New Order appear and kick some *** for Palpatine would also help tie in the prequels as they could bridge the end of the Old Republic and the rise of the Empire.

Giving me more Imperials!!!!

Pendo
05-05-2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Dooku will be revealed to be Anakin's father. I hope. It pushes him to think the Jedi hid that from him and let him murder his own father, plus didn't let him save his mother, or Padme (who he thinks died while pregnant until later, as Vader, he realizes he was wrong about that, and makes a deal with Obi-Wan to raise his son).

I agree with almost everything you said there Tycho, except for that one. I'm hoping Anakin's father will not be revealed because IMO it will strengthen the "I am your father" scene in ESB, plus I also kinda like the virgin birth story.

I don't think everything will the tied with the OT. I think alot will, but there will be the odd little thing that won't.

PENDO!

roguematt7
05-05-2003, 03:09 PM
Sadly there's no way that Fett will kill Mace, though I think it'd be cool if he did (giving Vader reason to say the "no disintegrations" line to him in ESB). I'm pretty sure that Sam Jackson has said that the only way he wants Mace to go down is if Vader kills him. Plus, while it would be kind of cool to see, itís doubtful that a 12-year-old Fett could take down Mace unless A) he let him Obi Wan style or B) he didn't know he was coming (which being a Jedi isn't likely to happen). Also, does anybody else think that the brown cape Boba wears in ESB is possibly part of Mace's cloak?

TheDarthVader
05-05-2003, 03:13 PM
I agree with Pendo. Tycho, everything you said sounds great except for someone being revealed as Anakin's father. The other plot elements sound awesome!!
I voted "pretty much". And I am hoping that Anakin does not have a father. That would be stupid to have another "I am your father" scene. It would downplay the scene in ESB. (Like Pendo said). :)

Mandalorian Candidat
05-05-2003, 03:20 PM
I didn't want to read too many posts on EP3 because I've been wanting to be surprised unlike I've been with EP1 and 2 due to all the spoilers floating around. However, with the stuff I've already heard from starwars.com I believe the gap will not be 100%. Lucas wrote the six episodes with gaps between each one. There's always some unknowns that occurred between each story, like the Approaching Storm book whose plot was mentioned by Windu in the beginning of EP2.

Thus, I don't think everything will be or even should be shown between 3 and 4. We know we'll see Ani turn into Vader, the Jedi beginning to be either persecuted or hunted down, and Yoda and OB1 go into hiding. There's also that one scene Lucas already filmed for EP3 that is mentioned on disc 2 of EP2's DVD. I don't think anyone can say for sure what else is going to happen for sure unless Lucas reveals more stuff. It could be that many of the things we've speculated about already in this thread won't ever be shown on film because they'll just be alluded to.

Darth Spectre
05-05-2003, 03:34 PM
I don't think Yoda knows about Sidious being Palpatine (or vice versa). The Dark Side has the ability to cloud men's minds and hide the truth. And Yoda is not impervious to this, as his comment about being blind (including himself in the "We") to the creation of the Clone Army indicates.

And in all honesty, I think some people are looking to make Anakin more heroic than anything we have learned thus far would indicate he was. I don't buy at all the idea that Anakin essentially "takes one for the team" and allies himself with Palpatine to allow Obi-Wan and Luke to survive. At best, he will know his son survived but have no clue about what has happened to him. It is more likely that he doesn't even know he has a son, because if he did, Palpatine would hunt him down knowing he could one day be a threat to them both.

Bacta Man
05-05-2003, 03:42 PM
The Chewie thing bing viewed as a spoiler seems a little ridiculous to me also.

Darth Jax
05-05-2003, 04:27 PM
as with so much of the rest of star wars, episode 3 will center around tatooine and events that will happen there (or have in the past and will be explained).

anakin's father will be revealed. shmi was simply trying to protect anakin by never revealing who his father was. knowing that anakin's father turned his back or somehow disgraced the order would not be a point in anakin's favor. leads to the assumption that either dooku/tyranus or possibly syfo-dias is anakin's father.

master syfo-dias will turn out to be darth sidious, a close associate of the former senator palpatine.

anakin's wife and unborn children will be forbidden him by the jedi when they discover he's broken the jedi code. being forced to choose between the love of his life and his life as a jedi he seeks advice from palpatine.

anakin will manage to kill dooku early in the film at which time palpatine will begin training as a sith under sidious. sidious must then assume control of the separatist movement. palpatine progresses rapidly in his training, foreshadowing that he is anakin's father.

palpatine reveals to anakin that he's his father. putting anakin in an awkward position when palpatine is challenged by mace. when mace attempts to battle palpatine, anakin interrupts and fights mace. ultimately anakin is the victor. yoda sensing the evil unleashed by palpatine across the galaxy, yet unable to oppose the ruler of the republic he's sworn to protect leaves the jedi order. obi-wan escorts yoda to dagobah.

a pregnant padme is pursued by sidious across a volcanic planet. anakin and obi-wan, now once more re-united attempt to track down sidious. anakin has managed to keep hidden that he has killed a jedi, but obi-wan senses that something is different (changed even) with his padawan. in the climatic battle with sidious anakin is apparently killed when he falls in a molten pool of lava. padme is rescued by obi-wan after he manages to defeat sidious. when they return to the spot of anakin's fall all that remains is his lightsaber which obi keeps. padme admits the children are anakin's.

the movie ends with voice over work by JEJ as a baby leia arrives on alderaan while obi escorts luke to tatooine. padme returns to coruscant where she is confronted by palpatine with a menace in black armor at his side as the screen fades to black (leading to months of debate and speculation as to what happens to padme).

edit: until we receive the 'official' release of all 6 movies i don't think things will be completely wrapped up. after ep 3, all 6 films will undergo slight revision before being released in the director's cut version which will manage to erase most (still not all) continuity errors.

JangoFart
05-05-2003, 05:53 PM
Eh, I don't know, Jax. I like it, alot, but I still think that Palpatine is Sidious, or his clone. As I recall from the EU stories, cloning can be a process which not only creates a clone in minutes, it can churn out full-grown adults as well. (It's been a LONG time since I've read that, so bear with me if it's not 100% accurate, but that's what I remember.)

As I recall, before EP2 came out, the Star Wars Insider had a whole issue about how they made Palpatine look more Emperor-ish. And, as the same actor who played Emp. Palpatine in ROTJ is the same dude who plays Palpatine now, I don't really think it's plausible that Syfo-Dias is Sidious - it's clear that Palpatine and Sidious are the same actor and, I think, same character; or his clone.

J

I am Jabba the Hutt
05-05-2003, 08:28 PM
Woah, Dooku MUSTN'T be Anakin's father, that would be a worse storyline than the whole clone emperor thing.
Plus, Dooku is too old to be with Shmi... then again people said that about Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta! :D :crazed:

Turbowars
05-05-2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Yoda already knows.


I think Yoda (and possibly Mace) already know that Palpatine is Darth Sidious.

Yes, this is what I think to, but not Mace. We all remember that look Yoda has on his face when he's in Palpatine office, that you "A" hole look or you are full Of BS look. As far as the stories I have read here, I feel as if I saw EP3 already. All I want from Lucas is a well balanced film with less CGI. No CGI would be better, but thats like asking lucas for the OT on DVD, it will never happen.

Rogue II
05-05-2003, 09:33 PM
Will Lucas tie the gap between the trilogies with Episode Three?

In my opinion...not completely. Why? Because I was dissapointed with Episodes 1 and 2 and don't see any reason why 3 will be any better. GL has lots of things to link together, and only one movie to do it. Maybe my low expectaions for this movie will make it better once I finally see it.:)

I'm already tired of all the specualtion threads, so I quit reading them. I doubt bringing Chewbacca back will help the film.

I wonder if midichlorians will pop up again in Episode 3.:crazed:

Darth Jax
05-05-2003, 10:16 PM
ep. 3 will be the most anticipated film in my life. i'm anxious to see how wrong i am with my guesses and just how GL will attempt to weave together the disjointed plot items of 1 & 2 with what follows in 4-6.

wedge072
05-05-2003, 11:10 PM
I think Anakin gets kicked out of the Jedi order, because the Jedi found out about anakin and Padme getting married!

Dooku and Sidious/Palpatine, use the bounty hunter, Aurra Sing, to lure or trap Anakin, where they can turn him to the dark side!

The jedi are now figuring out what is really going on, Mace, Obi Wan and another Jedi, say, Plo Koon or Ki adi Mundi, go to put a stop to Dooku once and for all. They travel to depts of Corusant. Here they come upon Anakin, Dooku, and Aurra Sing. Before they are interrupted by the Jedi, Dooku tells Anakin, he is his father. Along the same lines as Vader told luke, except Anakin already has new hand! Anakin searches within the force(as did Luke), and realizes the truth.

Enter the Jedi. Dooku and his old friend, Mace Windu begin to fight, Obi-Wan starts fighting Aurra Sing, whom also has Force ability, and the other jedi fights Anakin.

Palpatine was with Dooku and they confronted Anakin, but left when he sensed the Jedi near by, thus keeping his role un-noticed, until later in the movie!

Anakin fights the Jedi, because they kicked him out of the order, and he never actually felt acepted, because most of them origianlly said no to his training.

As all six are fighting, Dooku begins telling Anakin to join him, and together they can bring order to the Galaxy! The way Vader Tempted looked! But more when Luke was on board the Falcon, and Vader was on the Star Destoyer. Using a telepathic power!


By doing this Dooku becomes vulnerable, and Mace strikes Dooku with a fatal blow! This enrages Anakin. Anakin feels the hatred swelling inside, and kills the Jedi he is fighting, and rushes over and kills Mace Windu! Obi Wan has to stop anakin, he either kills Aurra Sing, or she escapes!

Enter the stage for the battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin! Of course we know that Obi-Wan has to destroy Anakin. Anakin somehow is knocked into the pit of molten lava, but survives! Palpatine rescues anakin and completes his training, Thus Anakin is now dead, and we welcome the rise of Darth Vader!

mini-rock
05-05-2003, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by zeroplate
well, for what it's worth, here would be my take on it:

The Jedi are arrogant and stoic to a fault. The whole idea of having no connections to people, the emotional detachment, and the Jedi playing the role of the 'old world' religious leaders all points to them as being severly flawed. What makes Luke different from the Jedi that have gone before him is that he places more value on the lives of his friends and family than he does on the Jedi code of behavior and training. Anakin does the same thing, but obviously loses the battle to stay good (and we don't know how yet.) Luke wins that battle (and ultimately, Vader does too I guess) and Luke shows that you have to have a balance between these high-minded ideals that the Jedi stand for and a more basic connection to the people around you.

It's not enough to just be connected to the whole universe through the force-- it's a case of seeing the whole and not the parts. The Jedi to me are painted in a very negative light. Sure, they are great warriors and they are revered, learned people, but they are unable to see what's going on with Palpatine because they are too stuck in their old ways. They believe that the Jedi order and the rules surrounding it should always conquer all, but in truth, they are lacking what most humans would consider very basic human qualities.

If you look at Star Wars as a mythic story arc, it's kind of a classic tale of the old, established powers-that-be crumbling under their own failure to grow and change. Anakin and Luke represent varied attempts at changing with time and bringing more humanity and empathy and love to the Jedi order.

If you follow out the logic of Yoda's warnings to Luke, then Luke should not confront Vader and the emperor, should not help his friends, and should stay with Yoda to complete his training. Well, in the end, obviously Luke made the right choice, which meant that Yoda was wrong. Of course, you could always say Yoda was telling Luke what he needed to hear, but the films don't support that. After Luke leaves, Yoda is concerned that he is going to fail... so obvioulsy he wasn't using reverse pyschology.

So, that's it. There's no reason for Palpatine and Sidious to be two different people, and in fact, this is a case where everything points to them being the same person and that conclusion makes the most sense. In the larger scale of the story, the idea that Palpatine is just a clone doesn't help. What we need to see is the fall of the Jedi not at the hands of one sith, but under the weight of their own lack of forsight. And that's what I think we'll see.


Damn zeroplate, that was a damn good post. :)

DINVADER27
05-06-2003, 12:47 AM
Looks as if some of you don't even pay attention to the DVD commentaries or don't read Lucas interviews. On the EP1 DVD Lucas refers to Sidious being "introduced as a hologram, the same way he was introduced in Empire Strikes Back." At the end of the EP2 DVD he refers to Sidious as the Emperor. Also at the end of Ep1 "But, which was destroyed, the master or the apprentice?" camera pans over to Palpatine. McCallum was quoted as saying "Palpatine is Sidious, no clones, no twins, nothing like that." I will find the date and location of that qoute at theforce.net

2-1B
05-06-2003, 01:09 AM
Well said, DIN :)

Figurestasher
05-06-2003, 06:16 AM
OK fellas, just a few things...

Palpatine = Darth Sidious.

Why does Anakin have to have a father anyways?

I feel Yoda has just a HUNCH (remember the darkside clouds everything) about Palpatine being a Sith Master, and that Mace doesn't have a clue.

The Gungans, Jar Jar, and Naboo should be destroyed whether its in a freakin' video game or not.

As for the poll, well I have faith in Lucas tying them all together and ultimately making a film that we all shall enjoy and talk about for years to come. After all it all began in his mind a long time ago in his galaxy far far away.

P.S...hoping less CGI as well but that is like hoping I'll go down to my local TRU and find a ToyFair Vader.

SNAYSON
05-06-2003, 10:36 AM
the past two prequels have been lack luster. no way near the original trilogy. the only thing that seems to tie the prequels to the orignal trilogy is the names of characters, so i have my doubts on how good of a job Lucas is going to tie-in episode 3 to the orignal trilogy. For me and a few star wars fans that did grow up watching the original trilogy, the prequels so far have been a disappointment. The novels and comic books seem to have better continutie and tie-in to the original Lucas trilogy than Lucas's own prequel movies. :(

LuckytheWonderLlamaM
05-06-2003, 11:17 AM
I predict that some stuff is going to happen. Speculation is pointless. But that doesn't stop us from doing it! HOw about a guess on the Title - my guess: Revenge of the Sith.

Kinda brings it full circle.

LONG LIVE THE EXPANDED UNIVERSE!!!!

Oh, by the way...the reason why the Expanded Universe panders better to the Original Trilogy than the Prequels is because up untill now, Lucas kept a tight hold on the Clone War era. Now that the New Jedi Order is ending, they are shifting focus to the Clone Wars!

LONG LIVE THE EXPANDED UNIVERSE!!!!!! YOU ARE A FOOL TO IGNORE IT!!!

Mar10Sir
05-06-2003, 04:02 PM
I think there will be some gaps (like the covering of 3PO's frame, which was done by Shmi on the AOTC novelization) and mistakes (like the fact that Owen was supposed to be Obi-Wan's brother according to the ROTJ novelization and not Anakin's step-brother).

While Lucas did have the idea of the whole plot involving the rising of the Empire and the fall of the Jedi, this was a broad treatment which he had to trim down for the new movies.

Some of the changes from the original script were Anakin's age (in the first draft of the EI script Anakin was supposed to be older than on the film) and Obi-Wan's rank (in the first draft, Obi-Wan was already a Jedi Knight and he went alone to meet the Trade Federation's barons).

I think he miscalculated and realized that the whole backstory was far too complex to trim down to three films. Too bad. This leaves for more than a few loose ends. Well... we'll see how he ends up with this.

For sure, we'll see Palpatine proclaim himself emperor, destroy most of the Jedi (perhaps he'll use the Death Star which we already got a hint at on AOTC or some other device to eliminate them massively while battling on the Clone Wars) and reveal himself as a Sith to the remaining Jedi. Obviously, we'll see Anakin's fall to the dark side and his famous fight with Obi-Wan that leaves him all scarred and bruised.

Darth Spectre
05-06-2003, 04:11 PM
Yes, Revenge of the Sith or Fall of the Jedi...anything else would be a disappointment...which we can kinda expect at this point from George. LOL

jeffonthego
05-06-2003, 08:45 PM
To me "Rise of the Empire" says it all.

It also ties in with "Empire Strikes Back" - ie, Empire needs to appear before it can strike back.

As for tying the trilogies together, I believe it will in substance, but of course that doesn't mean that Episode III will actually spawn all the years until Episode IV.

Every film has had a gap, often in years, until the next one, so of course Ep III will be no different.

For those who say that the estimated 20-year gap is not enough for the Clone Wars. Of course it is. How long do you think wars take?

As for the death of all Jedi, I don't know, I wonder. I've always found it strange that of all the Jedi, the Empire would allow the strongest one, Yoda, to escape. Not to mention of course Obi-Wan, or even the Skywalker kids for that matter. I don't keep up on the Expanded Universe, but I imagine that other Jedi survive here and there. Anyway, regardless if this is so, we certainly don't need to see all the Jedi die in Ep III. By the end of the movie, we will know that things have gone very bad and maybe that the Jedi Order is cast aside, with the later movies confirming just how bad things went.

This idea is what I'm talking about. For those people trying to imagine how Ep III is going to fit in every last twist and turn, outcome of every character, żou're on the wrong track. Ep III just needs to show how us the origins of the things we already know.

For example, we just need to see the Empire rise, we don't need to see it wipe everything else out - the fact that there is a 'rebellion' in Ep IV confirms that, otherwise, the Empire is completely dominant. We don't need to see every Jedi die, just that the order loses its position and the hunt for Jedi begins - Ep IV will tell us they all died. Get the picture?

As for tying in more characters in Ep III, it can be fun, but it's not always critical. (Though shame on you Lucas for a nice tie-in on Greedo, filming it and then leaving it as a deleted scene!). But they shouldn't go overboard on this sort of thing. Greedo was a nice one, because we already knew he lived on Tatoine, so why not have him grow up there. But we don't need to encounter origins of Han, Lando and everyone in Ep III. Do too much of this and then it becomes too unbelievably coincidental.

Lastly, if there is one thing I would like to see though, it is Yoda's flight to Dagobah. Maybe it's not necessary, afterall he may have wandered quite a bit before finally taking refuge there. I just want to know, why Dagobah? And, also how is it that he could be allowed to escape? It's this last point that I really bugs me. One theory that would make me happy is that Anakin/Vader allows Yoda and Obi Wan to escape - out of personal loyalty to them his former master and grand master. If you think this is unthinkable, I disagree because I don't see Vader as becoming hateful, but simply as trying to bring 'order' to the galaxy. Having removed the Jedi Order, letting Yoda and Obi-Wan doesn't conflict with this. But that's just my idea . . .

jeffonthego
05-06-2003, 08:52 PM
One more thing . . .

As someone who doesn't read the novels, I don't consider any differences in the movies to be "mistakes" (as some people here have suggested).

I understand the appeal of reading more Star Wars stuff (whether books, novels, games or whatever), but whoever follows that other stuff, it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Sure Lucasfilm may licence these and even approve them, but does anyone really believe that George Lucas actually follows all that stuff?

And, in the end of the day, when Lucas sits down with his pencil and notepad in his study to write the scripts, he will write the story that inspires him at that point - regardless of what has been done in these other products.

And for the vast majority of filmgoers that only have the films as points of reference, it suits us just fine.

stillakid
05-06-2003, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Do you think Lucas will be able to fully bridge the gap between the Prequels & the Original Trilogy with Episode III?

Editor thanks JediTricks for suggesting the poll, and predicts Stillakid has his answer already archived with duplicate copies ;)

;)


Fully? Impossible if we're only talking about Episode III. There are blatant incongruities that have been introduced in I and II.

However, I voted for the "maybe" option, because I fully expect there to be major alterations to the original trilogy stories for the DVD releases. That isn't to say that George will A) recognize the obvious continuity problems and/or questionable bits, and then B) actually do something about them, but the possibility exists.

I tend to be naive and expect far too much out of people than they are capable of actually delivering. That attitude has gotten me into trouble in the past yet I continue to keep hold of that optimism. So, while Lucas has compromised his reputation with Episode's I and II, I remain cautiously optimistic that somehow he might create a decent Episode III and make appropriate alterations to the Original Trilogy so that it all makes one happy saga. :)

Darth Spectre
05-07-2003, 01:57 AM
The big problem with the "Anakin Letting Obi-Wan/Yoda Escape" theory is that it flies in the face of everything we seem to know about how and why Anakin fell to begin with. It was his anger, rage and hate that led him to Palpatine. There was no sign of remorse or hesistation when he met Obi-Wan on the Death Star. He confronted Obi-Wan and seemingly had no other thoughts other than killing him. In Ep II, we already see his rage and resentment towards Obi-Wan growing, and that will surely be magnified in Ep III (probably related to Padme somehow, pushing Anakin over the edge). And let's not forget, it is Obi-Wan who is going to be responsible (or blamed anyway) for Anakin physically becoming Darth Vader. So, to me anyway, it seems pretty far-fetched that Anakin would purposely allow Obi-Wan or Yoda to survive.

Darth Spectre
05-07-2003, 02:05 AM
If Anakin had been portrayed as more noble up to this point, as anything other than an impetuous self-centered young adult, I would consider that possibility more. But the Adult Anakin doesn't seem like one that would "take one for the team." If he was like that, he wouldn't have joined the Sith.

JangoFart
05-07-2003, 02:24 AM
I agree. I don't think for a second that Anakin/Vader would let Obi-Wan and Yoda slip by him on purpose. Spectre is right: by the time he becomes Vader, there was no good left in him until Luke came 'round to tug at his heart strings.

I think Anakin found Obi-Wan and Padme makin' sweet love down by the fire and went ballistic. Or, maybe he heard Obi-Wan's rendition of "I'm gunna lay ya down, Padme" while Obi-Wan was in the shower and started putting two and two together.

J

Darth Spectre
05-07-2003, 10:41 AM
That is also a good point. The 1st signs of Vader having a conscious or showing humanity can be seen in Empire, not Star Wars...and it all has to do with Luke. In all honesty, Vader's softening really doesn't become apparent until ROTJ, though you can see glimpses in TESB. Especially when you look back now.

jjreason
05-07-2003, 07:52 PM
I think there will continue to be an increase in the recognizability of certain elements visually to connect the trilogies. I fully expect to see ships very similar to those of the OT in epIII. I would also expect there to be an "evolution" of the clonetroopers' armor so that it more closely resembles that of the OT stormtroopers (and Hasbro needs to have us on the hook to buy tons of new army builders, don't they?). Im hoping they'll use some of the locales mentioned in the OT that we haven't seen, specifically Alderaan.
I suspect the story will tie things up nicely, the PT hasn't really been too deceptive with it's "secrets" (Wow! I had no idea Padme was really Queen Amidala!!!! or Wow! I had no idea Grand Chancellor Palpatine was really Darth Sidious!!!! are words that will never be spoken), so I think they'll spell things out pretty clearly regarding Ani becoming Vader. The greatest movie surprise of all time will become a moot point for new viewers watching chronologically - which is why my kids will be introduced to the OT first.

Darth Spectre
05-07-2003, 08:55 PM
You're right about us probably not getting any major surprises in EP III, though it is funny that though most of us understand that Palpatine is Sidious (and that should have been made absolutely clear by the funeral scene of TPM), some people still insist they must be or are two different physical beings.

And Vader revealing himself to Luke will indeed by a moot point for fans who watch the trilogy for the first time in Episodic order.

Beast
05-07-2003, 09:28 PM
It won't be a moot point, just the shock will be different. You'll actually feel Luke's shock more, since you don't have your own personal shock clouding the scene. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Darth Spectre
05-07-2003, 09:33 PM
That is an interesting point. Though I think one would feel Luke's shock more if it blindsided them, like it did him.

stillakid
05-07-2003, 11:49 PM
naw, it'll be a moot point. The original purpose of the way the OT was filmed was to create a specific drama and surprise by revealing information in very specific ways. By puking it all up on screen in the Prequels, all of that original intention will be stomped upon with a resounding THUD. A very applicable comparison would be Ted Turner colorizing old black & white films. It is also akin to any film which is destroyed by the pan & scan process. In all three events, the original intentions of the filmmakers and the films themselves are ignored and shredded to tiny little bits. :( You can rationalize it all you want, but it won't change the fact that the OT wasn't constructed with Episode's 1, 2, and 3 in mind at all...at least not with the way GL is writing them anyway. Maybe sometime in the distant past of his youth, he had the best of intentions and his younger self would have done this properly, but he's a jaded old filmmaker now with kids.

Darth Spectre
05-08-2003, 12:23 AM
I agree completely. The whole effect of the original trilogy will be lost on those who watch it in Episodic order. Will be interesting to hear though the opinions of the 1st generation of film goers who can (and those who do) watch it this way. Lucas has lost a lot of his magic. It started with Jedi actually...and even though AOTC was best movie since Empire, it is still a long ways from the classic feel of the original trilogy.

Turbowars
05-08-2003, 12:31 AM
Man, I can't read this thread anymore. It's just to darn SAD. Sometimes I wish that Lucas would have left the story alone, the OT was perfect by itself. :cry: :(

Darth Spectre
05-08-2003, 12:39 AM
The thing that bothers me most about Lucas is how he keeps practicing revisionist history on Star Wars. One minute he says he had planned 9 movies, then denies it, then amends his denial...one minute he wants you to believe he had this whole vision of the prequels planned out from way back when, but then there are holes in the storyline you can fly a Star Destroyer through. There are just so many things that show he really didn't have this planned out very well in his head, but he keeps wanting us to think different.

mini-rock
05-08-2003, 01:03 AM
What worries me isn't whether or not GL will be able to tie the gap between EP3 and the OT, but what will he add to the OT AE's to bring them up to the level of the prequels? I mean really, he may as well make the OT over from scratch with all of the improvements he will have to make, and even then it will still most definitely not come close to the higher standard of the prequels. I guess we (everyone I've talked to) have to have faith that GL will breath life into the OT with the AE's. Then we can retire those Original OT laserdiscs, and never have to see again how gawd aweful they really were.

Darth Spectre
05-08-2003, 01:13 AM
If he has to do anything, I just wish he would replace the monkey face Emperor in TESB with Ian McDiarmid since it is going to look ridiculous to have the same guy playing Palpatine in EPs I-III, and VI...and some other jabroni playing him in V. Am still puzzled why he didn't do that to the Special Editions. Though supposedly the Imperial March is going to be added into Ep IV eventually as one change (that works at least, more than it being in Ep II at the end since it is Vader's theme...and Vader doesn't exist yet).

stillakid
05-08-2003, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by mini-rock
I guess we (everyone I've talked to) have to have faith that GL will breath life into the OT with the AE's.

EVERYONE you've talked to? Oh really. Please provide a list of those individuals who feel as you do that think that the original trilogy films are garbage. Failure to provide such a list within 24 hours will prove that your previous post is maliciously deceptive and false.

:rolleyes:

mini-rock
05-08-2003, 01:20 AM
To me the Imperial March played at the end of AOTC symbolized the birth of the Empire, but I see where your coming from. Nobody who is watching for the first time will get it like we did, butfor them I'm sure it will have a slightly different meaning. Dunno.:)

Tycho
05-08-2003, 01:40 AM
Not to interrupt this great example of petty-bickering, but only to add my own:


The Empire Strikes Back surprise of Vader being Luke's father will be preserved, if Lucas does this right, and it's still watched in chronological order.

1) Anakin gets kicked out of the Jedi Order for marrying Padme.

2) Anakin joins the Naboo, because of Padme. The Naboo are represented by Pamde, and Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. Anakin goes to work for Palpatine so he can escape his nagging, pregnant wife.

3) Many Jedi Masters have been killed in the Clone Wars. Younglings and other non-Knights need Masters. Obi-Wan gets A NEW PADAWAN.

4) Anakin is jealous of the new padawan building a relationship with his former Master, who didn't teach him enough to become a real Knight.

The new Padawan is jealous of Anakin because Anakin had a mother, married, broke all the rules, and still has a connection with Obi-Wan that is 12 years older, and 10 times deeper than anything the new Padawan will ever have with Obi-Wan.

The 2 apprentices of Obi-Wan hate each other.

5) The new Padawan goes MIA in an opening battle close to the fight with Dooku. Obi-Wan calls to the Jedi he is closest to for help: Anakin. The 2 take on Dooku. Anakin delivers a mortal blow to expedite things because he takes off to run back to Coruscant to try and save the Naboo there (Padme, Palpatine) fearing his wife is dead.

6) Obi-Wan learns from the dying Dooku that Sidious is Palpatine.
Obi-Wan rushes after Anakin, feeling he's failed his former apprentice if he delivered him into the hands of the Sith Lord!

7) Anakin defends Palpatine against Obi-Wan (this is the fight).
a) Palpatine tells him that Dooku was his father, Obi-Wan let him kill his own dad.
b) Palpatine tells him that Padme and his unborn kid died.
c) Palpatine tells him that the Jedi, and Obi-Wan lied and betrayed him.
d) Palpatine tells him that he is the Sith Lord, but that Anakin's father chose to serve him. "Now strike your Master down and take your father's place at my side!"

7) Anakin can't trust anybody. He has NO ONE left to live for. He lets himself get defeated and Obi-Wan's blade finds its marks. Anakin lets him fall like Luke did on Bespin. Anakin lands near toxins (from lava, or acidic waste) that are destroying his lungs. His body is already broken from the fight with Obi-Wan.

8) Palpatine's forces (guards or the Dark Side of the Force itself, drives off Obi-Wan who goes only with Anakin's lightsaber).

9) Still alive, the 2nd Padawan (that hated Anakin) rushes in to try and find his Master (Obi-Wan) and help him. Fearing it is too late, and obviously recognizing Anakin's lightsaber wounds, he thinks the Anakin killed Obi-Wan, and was mortally wounded in the process. To take revenge, the 2nd Apprentice appears that he might kill Anakin sooner than he'd die of the lung poisoning anyway.

10) Palpatine shows up and tells the 2nd Padawan "now my young apprentice, will you truly understand the Dark Side of the Force." He shoots out lightning that shows he is powerful in the Dark Side, and the apprentice is struck by it, screaming and howling as Luke did in ROTJ. Anakin's dying body is hit too. The other young Jedi is brought to his knees. CUT SCENE WITH NO RESOLUTION SHOWN!

11) Darth Vader appears later at EMPEROR Palpatine's side.

12) 20 years later, Obi-Wan tells Luke, "Darth Vader, a young Jedi WHO WAS A PUPIL OF MINE....betrayed and murdered your father."

Now it is possible that a pupil of Obi-Wan's DID betray and murder Anakin.

3 years after that: Darth Vader tells Luke that HE is Luke's father. Could Anakin still be alive?

1 more year after that, Yoda confirms it to his apprentice, Luke Skywalker.


NOW THERE IS STILL A SURPRISE.

a) we did see Anakin turn to the Dark Side - he turned to hate and believing lies and tried to kill his own Master. Before that, he carries the guilt of murdering his own father, not being able to save his pregnant wife, or his mother.

b) We do know from hindsight, that Palpatine meant Obi-Wan's "young apprentice" not his own, when he obviously killed the new padawan with his lightning.

c) We saw that Palpatine was on hand before Anakin was completley dead. Seeing Vader later, we know from hindsight, that Palpatine had something to do with Anakin's rescue.

mini-rock
05-08-2003, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
Not to interrupt this great example of petty-bickering, but only to add my own:


The Empire Strikes Back surprise of Vader being Luke's father will be preserved, if Lucas does this right, and it's still watched in chronological order.

1) Anakin gets kicked out of the Jedi Order for marrying Padme.

2) Anakin joins the Naboo, because of Padme. The Naboo are represented by Pamde, and Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. Anakin goes to work for Palpatine so he can escape his nagging, pregnant wife.

3) Many Jedi Masters have been killed in the Clone Wars. Younglings and other non-Knights need Masters. Obi-Wan gets A NEW PADAWAN.

4) Anakin is jealous of the new padawan building a relationship with his former Master, who didn't teach him enough to become a real Knight.

The new Padawan is jealous of Anakin because Anakin had a mother, married, broke all the rules, and still has a connection with Obi-Wan that is 12 years older, and 10 times deeper than anything the new Padawan will ever have with Obi-Wan.

The 2 apprentices of Obi-Wan hate each other.

5) The new Padawan goes MIA in an opening battle close to the fight with Dooku. Obi-Wan calls to the Jedi he is closest to for help: Anakin. The 2 take on Dooku. Anakin delivers a mortal blow to expedite things because he takes off to run back to Coruscant to try and save the Naboo there (Padme, Palpatine) fearing his wife is dead.

6) Obi-Wan learns from the dying Dooku that Sidious is Palpatine.
Obi-Wan rushes after Anakin, feeling he's failed his former apprentice if he delivered him into the hands of the Sith Lord!

7) Anakin defends Palpatine against Obi-Wan (this is the fight).
a) Palpatine tells him that Dooku was his father, Obi-Wan let him kill his own dad.
b) Palpatine tells him that Padme and his unborn kid died.
c) Palpatine tells him that the Jedi, and Obi-Wan lied and betrayed him.
d) Palpatine tells him that he is the Sith Lord, but that Anakin's father chose to serve him. "Now strike your Master down and take your father's place at my side!"

7) Anakin can't trust anybody. He has NO ONE left to live for. He lets himself get defeated and Obi-Wan's blade finds its marks. Anakin lets him fall like Luke did on Bespin. Anakin lands near toxins (from lava, or acidic waste) that are destroying his lungs. His body is already broken from the fight with Obi-Wan.

8) Palpatine's forces (guards or the Dark Side of the Force itself, drives off Obi-Wan who goes only with Anakin's lightsaber).

9) Still alive, the 2nd Padawan (that hated Anakin) rushes in to try and find his Master (Obi-Wan) and help him. Fearing it is too late, and obviously recognizing Anakin's lightsaber wounds, he thinks the Anakin killed Obi-Wan, and was mortally wounded in the process. To take revenge, the 2nd Apprentice appears that he might kill Anakin sooner than he'd die of the lung poisoning anyway.

10) Palpatine shows up and tells the 2nd Padawan "now my young apprentice, will you truly understand the Dark Side of the Force." He shoots out lightning that shows he is powerful in the Dark Side, and the apprentice is struck by it, screaming and howling as Luke did in ROTJ. Anakin's dying body is hit too. The other young Jedi is brought to his knees. CUT SCENE WITH NO RESOLUTION SHOWN!

11) Darth Vader appears later at EMPEROR Palpatine's side.

12) 20 years later, Obi-Wan tells Luke, "Darth Vader, a young Jedi WHO WAS A PUPIL OF MINE....betrayed and murdered your father."

Now it is possible that a pupil of Obi-Wan's DID betray and murder Anakin.

3 years after that: Darth Vader tells Luke that HE is Luke's father. Could Anakin still be alive?

1 more year after that, Yoda confirms it to his apprentice, Luke Skywalker.


NOW THERE IS STILL A SURPRISE.

a) we did see Anakin turn to the Dark Side - he turned to hate and believing lies and tried to kill his own Master. Before that, he carries the guilt of murdering his own father, not being able to save his pregnant wife, or his mother.

b) We do know from hindsight, that Palpatine meant Obi-Wan's "young apprentice" not his own, when he obviously killed the new padawan with his lightning.

c) We saw that Palpatine was on hand before Anakin was completley dead. Seeing Vader later, we know from hindsight, that Palpatine had something to do with Anakin's rescue.


Cool Tycho. AFter reading that I'm so stoked for EP3.:)

jeffonthego
05-08-2003, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by Darth Spectre
The big problem with the "Anakin Letting Obi-Wan/Yoda Escape" theory is that it flies in the face of everything we seem to know about how and why Anakin fell to begin with. It was his anger, rage and hate that led him to Palpatine. There was no sign of remorse or hesistation when he met Obi-Wan on the Death Star. He confronted Obi-Wan and seemingly had no other thoughts other than killing him.

A bit late on the reply, but wanted to jump back in on this one.

You're quite right that maybe Anakin doesn't let Yoda and Obi-Wan escape. That's just one thought. And, frankly, this is the biggest question I want answered in EpIII is how these two Jedi bigwigs are allowed to flee and live out their lives.

I do want to address your last idea. I disagree with everybody that just sees Anakin as some immature guy who is letting his jealous, hating resentment drive him to Palpatine. I think this is what most people think, but I believe it will be completely proven wrong.

The message I got from AOTC is of someone who has personally felt the downside and pain of societal chaos (ie, growing up as slaves on Tatoine, being unable to save his mother) and who is gradually seeing the path of chaos descending on the republic (ie, endless debating and innefectiveness of Senate, growing civil war).

As a result, he believes that the ultimate goal should be order and stability in the galaxy, at whatever cost (ie, his discussions with Padme). To him, peace through strong leadership (even dictatorship) would be better than chaos with democracy.

So, his being drawn to Palpatine has nothing to do with any attraction to the dark side (he doesn't know Palpatine's Darth Sidious), but everything to do with his feeling that Palpatine as a Chancellor with real powers (an Emperor by another name) could be the man to bring order (not because he is a Sith - Anakin doesn't know this - but because Anakin has grown into adulthood with Palpatine as a mentor and seing how Palpatine is foiled by the bureaucrats and senate bickering).

Palpatine (as Darth Sidious) has covertly setup this civil war (by propping up the other side through Tyrannus) in order to strengthen his arguments for first an army, then eventually calls for a Chancellor with real power (to ultimately be renamed Emperor). I think that Palpatine is after power and his Sith drive for revenge on the Jedi, but Anakin is just being drawn into his order/chaos ruse.

Now, does Anakin eventually become a pretty bad guy as Vader. Sure, of course. But, as we all know, power corrupst. What is now a right-minded desire to end chaos and suffering, eventually will be lost sight of as he is drawn into the dark side.

As for how Anakin can turn on the Jedi, I think it will be a tough call for him at the moment of reckoning, but that he will be swayed by the realisation that the Jedi are propping up the old dysfunctional way and that it is only Palpatine that can restore true order (so why kill Obi-Wan in ANH, because again he is a Jedi trying to bring back the old dysfunctional way - "you shouldn't have come back Obi-Wan" - ie, I didn't want to kill you, but . . .).

As for Anakin's connection to the force, Anakin will come to realise that the Jedi's power over the force has weakened (as revealed between Yoda and Mace) and that it is now the dark side of the force that has the real power to achieve the aim of bringing order to the galaxy.

While I don't pretend to be right on every detail, overall I am convinced of this in terms of Anakin's motivations (not hatred but a well-meaning desire to bring order to society). Only Lucas can convince me otherwise.

Tycho
05-08-2003, 03:51 AM
Jeffonthego: That was beautiful. I so completely agree!

Mini-rock: thanks for your compliments on my take on how it all happens. I think Jeffonthego added to Anakin's psychology and philosophical state of mind for these occurences, but the emotional drive to "save everybody" (running after Mom and then Obi-Wan in AOTC, then Obi-Wan again and finally Padme in E3) will be the emotional straw that breaks his back. Together, these elements combined, as perfectly stated in Jeff's post above, will create Darth Vader.

Just know that I know NO spoilers. I can't confirm anything I put in my last expose above. I just think that it logically makes sense if it goes down that way, and we'll still preserve the punch in ESB for future generations who may watch these movies in Episode Order.

The only thing it denies the fans is learning who built the Darth Vader suit, and who or what (droid?) physically put Anakin into it, and what on him is mechanical (in addition to his lungs on ventilators and his bionic right arm - these could be it alone, too, you know. The point is WE don't know yet. Only George really does. And making Vader more and more mechanical is not really important to the story. So it'll likely never be shown, so read your books my friends, and keep enjoying them for years to come. (Del Rey, Dark Horse, Scholastic, and DK will certainly enjoy their profits for years to come - I'd garauntee that!)

Darth Spectre
05-08-2003, 11:32 AM
When I spoke of Anakin being drawn to Palpatine, I was talking more about his final decision to join the Sith...as in Vader drawn to the Emperor more. I agree that Anakin does seek order to a large extent, and the desire for order can certainly lead to Despots and Dictatorships. But I still think he is more driven by his personal needs, emotional ones....those shortcomings are what prevent him for staying true to the Jedi, and turning towards the Sith. If they show a more mature Anakin truly making his decisions based on a desire for order, and to replace an archaic, failing system in Ep III...that would make him more noble and less of an emotional kid acting out, or having been manipulated to act out.

Tycho's ideas are interesting. If Lucas did leave a shroud of mystery about Vader's identity at the end of III, it would preserve the TESB revelation scene. I just don't think Lucas will do that. As far as Obi-Wan having another Padawan, I guess if he took the padawan of a dead master, to finish his training...I could see that. I tend to think Anakin was and will be Obi-Wan's lone apprentice until Luke though. I do agree that Anakin will feel lost, alone, betrayed...and that will fuel his dark side tendencies more and lead him to becoming Darth Vader.

Tycho
05-08-2003, 12:28 PM
In society, a great percentage of crime is committed by juveniles who feel betrayed or alienated by the rest of society.

Anakin will exhibit ALL of the characteristics discussed in the great posts by many people above, but don't discount the part of him that is the inexperienced, immature, and emotional little brat that whines, "it's not fair!" No life is never 'fair,' especially to a struggling adolescent (which is a lot of people under THIRTY (30) who are trying to adjust to life after they leave the nest.

So that Anakin begins to succumb to his anger and starts into a "thug life" is also noteworthy.

But I don't think he'll consciously decide to just join the Sith.

Timothy McVeigh didn't consciously decide to join the Crips or the Bloods or something like that. Nor did he join Iraq's Republican Guard. He took matters into his own hands and started down a dark path by himself.

Anakin will do likewise, but be trapped by Palpatine, who is looking at a much larger picture. Protecting Anakin's son will force him to accept succumbing to Palpatine's orders (not to mention all the trust the Chancellor has built up with Anakin over the past 12 years (over half his life!) while he notes the Jedi have inhibited him from saving Padme and his mother, plus lied to him about his father (to hide Dooku) until it was too late for Anakin to change anything and have the love of his family again.

Then it is no wonder why Luke Skywalker motivates Darth Vader's good side. Luke is all Anakin has left of himself, of his own identity. And he knew he was sacraficing his own life for his family when he turned on Palpatine in ROTJ. It makes that scene so much more powerful! (I'm a big fan of the Final Jedi Duel again these days).

One more thing: why Anakin would let Obi-Wan escape:

1) Obi-Wan has Luke with him when Vader catches up to them.

2) Luke can be raised either by the man that raised Anakin (Obi-Wan) out in exile where Anakin grew up himself (on Tatooine) or he can be raised by the Sith in the middle of a war to dominate the galaxy. Where would you choose to send your INFANT off-spring? Who would protect him: a Sith Lord or a Jedi Master that personally raised you?

3) Darth Vader will know he made a mistake in turning on Obi-Wan. He does not hate Obi-Wan, but MUST serve Palpatine. Almost all of it has to do with keeping Luke safe. In crime families, what does the Godfather do to keep his men from cheating him, or offing him? He threatens his underlings' families. Ah.....

Darth Spectre
05-08-2003, 12:39 PM
The one thing that makes more sense to me more now then it did at the time ROTJ first came out is why Vader would feel for Luke or why his goodness would resurface after all the terrible things he did and/or allow to happen. Luke and Anakin are similar, and faced many of the same choices. Luke chose wisely more times than not, and Anakin did not. It is absolutely true that Anakin (as Vader) sees himself in Luke: what he was and maybe even more so, what he could have been. That makes his return to the light side believable now, when for a long time I never could accept how someone who betrayed so much of who he was and so many people close to him could turn back for a son he never knew he had.

Masterdorkboy
05-08-2003, 12:43 PM
I think GL will completely cover all the bases with EIII. He did say, after all, that he was going to treat the prequels as one very long movie. E-I introducing the characters and how they relate, E-II setting the stage for the Clone Wars, and E-III the fall of Anakin to the Dark Side and the destruction of the Jedi.

That said, I love Tycho's idea of a second Obi apprentice, but I have another suggestion for how Anakin turns.

After learning of Anakin's marriage to Padme, Anakin is kicked out of the Jedi Order. Anakin, knowing that the child Padme is carrying will certainly be powerful with the force (what with all the mitachlorian genes Anakin has...lol), he asks Obi-Wan to take his lightsaber and train his child as a Jedi, and do what he could not. Thus tying in the ANH gift from father to Luke through Obi-Wan. They then part as friends.

However, a Clone War is still raging, moving from planet to planet, eventually ending up in Anakin's and Padme's home of Naboo. Obi-Wan comes to Anakin and asks for his help in the fighting, Anakin goes and takes a saber from a fallen Jedi. When it appears as though the Republic has won Anakin and Obi-Wan return back towards Anakin's home.

Dooku, far from defeated, follows them, to put them down for good. Attempting to crush them with some giant pillar or wall as he had almost successfully done in AOTC, they move out of the way. Unfortunately, a joyous Padme rushing to greet them appears to be killed. As Dooku flees, Anakin now is full of anger and hate for Dooku, and despite Obi-Wan's urging races after him.

Anakin's anger is even more heightened after losing the only person he was ever in love with, and his mother, and feeling powerless to stop it. This ties in to what Anakin said in AOTC after he buries his mother and says that he will become powerful enough to keep people from dying.

Dooku is followed back to Sidious/Palpatine by Anakin. As they are confronted Palpatine convinces Anakin of his friendship and that Dooku should be held responsible for the death of Padme. It is the constant desire of the master and apprentice in the Sith to almost bide time with one another, that the apprentice tries to become powerful enought to be the master, and that the master always seeks a new apprentice. Anakin listens to Palpatine and kills Dooku and turns to the Dark Side.

Back on Naboo Obi-Wan finds that Padme is still alive and not dead. He takes her to Alderaan and Bail Oragana, her strongest ally, to heal and haver her children.

Anakin, unaware of Padme's health, is convinced by Palpatine that Obi-Wan also shares blame for Anakin's misfortune and lost loved ones, as it was he who kept Anakin from being with his mother during his training, and it was his ask for help of Anakin in the battle that ultimately set in motion the the events leading to Padme's death.

The two former friends meet, with Obi-Wan having victory, but finding himself unable to destroy Anakin. Knowing now that Anakin has turned, and feeling partly responsible he leaves him injured but not dead. With the growing possibility that Anakin will one day find that Padme is alive and has had children he goes to take them and hide them.

Padme does die several months after childbirth and Obi-Wan decides to take the boy with him to the remote Tatooine to be raised by the Lars' and to be watched over and protected by Obi-Wan, and Leia will remain on Alderaan under the protection of Bail Organa. Thus leading us into ANH.

Just a long drawn out thought.

Darth Spectre
05-08-2003, 01:06 PM
That idea...is very good. It would make Obi-Wan's statement to Luke about the saber true, not just another "Point of View" things. And it would also explain why Anakin never knew he had children, though he should have probably known his wife was pregnant at some point.

LuckytheWonderLlamaM
05-08-2003, 02:31 PM
Hey, I've got an idea!

Since none of us have no control (or an idea) what so ever over what GL is going to do... Why don't we just wait for the movie to come out. Read a book in the meantime!

LONG LIVE THE EXPANDED UNIVERSE!!!!

MicroJow
05-09-2003, 06:21 PM
The way I see it, as soon as the Jedi find out about Anakin having a family on the side, they're going to boot him out of the Order. Upon which, Palpatine invites Anakin to become his right-hand man.

And as for that "already filmed" scene, I have a theory about that... I recall hearing that while Episode I was shooting, Alec Guiness visited the set for a few days. What if he shot a final scene for Episode III?

By the way - I read most of the posts in this thread before posting this but not all, so if anyone else has already come up with this stuff, it's entirely by coincidence. :)

- Joe!

It's Totally Free... It's Funny... What Are You Waiting For?
www.piratecovecomic.com

TheDarthVader
05-10-2003, 12:09 AM
I still have to disagree with those that feel that Dooku was really a good guy trying to destroy the sith from within. Who would Yoda kill so that "that cave is strong with the dark side of the force." ? Also, at the end of AOTC, yoda says, "joined the dark side Dooku has. Lies, deceit..." Yes, deceit and lies. He was a liar when he told Kenobi that stuff! (Jinn would have joined him, join me Obi-Wan and together we can destroy the sith.) <-- This doesn't make sense because Dooku IS a dark side Sith. He only wanted to try to convert Kenobi to the dark side then probably try to destroy Sidious so that it would be him and kenobi as master and apprentice. It would hurt the story if he turned out to be "good guy" trying to destroy the sith from inside. Just my opinion. ;)

Darth Spectre
05-10-2003, 02:14 AM
He was a liar possibly...but he did tell Obi-Wan the truth about Sidious and the Trade Federation. He told Obi-Wan the truth if for no other reason than that he knew Obi would naturally disbelieve him. Obi-Wan would expect him to lie, so he tells him the truth and throws him a curve.