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JediTricks
05-05-2003, 09:29 PM
Someone sent me an exerpt from the book "Empire Building" that seemed interesting. Lucas was very hands-off with ESB and rarely visited the production, but in this instance he did...


From chapter 10 "You're Ruining My Movie!"

"Paul had put together a rough assembly and it was pretty slow. George didn't like it at all," said [ANH and ESB producer Gary Kurtz]. Lucas didn't appreciate the effect the more intimate moments between Han and Leia, in particular, had on the movie's pace. "George didn't like the mushy stuff. He thought it slowed the action down," said Kurtz.
Lucas took control of the editing suite and locked himself away for two days. The clear implication was that "Supereditor" was going to save the day. When he emerged, the producer, director and editor were horrified at what he had done to the film.
"It was awful," laughed Kurtz. "It was chopped into tiny pieces and everything was fast."
When the trio objected violently Lucas merely became more agitated. "I'm on the hook for the money," he told them.
"He tried to pull a power number basically," said Kurtz.
Eventually it was [ANH and ESB editor Paul Hirsch] who talked Lucas round. When his nerves had calmed, he admitted his anger had been directed at himself as much as his team whose dedication he could not doubt. "In the end he finally realized the whole thing needed to be finessed," said Kurtz. "I think he was overwhelmed by events at the time."
Far from being a disaster, Empire was clearly shaping itself into something rather special. Days after his outburst, Lucas had admitted to the director and producer that the film was "coming together beautifully." [ESB director Irvin Kershner's] eye for detail and attention to the actors combined with [ESB cinemtographer Peter Suschitzky's] camera work, particularly in the ethereal blue of the Dagobah sequences, had lent the film its own distinct and likeable personality. "Kersh was maddening at times. He was a bit slow, but I think in the end it paid off. I have a great admiration for him," said Kurtz.

There were over 60 hours of footage for ESB, obviously most was not used and probably will never see the light of day again -- if it even exists at all. But I wonder what happened to Lucas' edit of the film, did they destroy it or is it in some vault somewhere? This excerpt speaks of the great teamwork that went into making the film, and certainly these people weren't the only ones involved with making the first 2 Star Wars films.

Rogue II
05-05-2003, 09:41 PM
So what you're saying is ATOC and TPM aren't all that great because no one stood up to Lucas?

Beast
05-05-2003, 09:48 PM
That many hours of footage is far from unheard of on a major motion picture. I've heard of many many with more. Alternate takes, Deleted scenes, Flubbed Takes, and the like adds up quickly. And yeah Rogue II, basically that's what he's trying to say. Of course that's only his own personal opinion. Of course, at the time of Empire's release, there were quite a few reviews that sound as bad as many reveiews for the prequels. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

DarthChuckMc
05-05-2003, 10:04 PM
I've never heard of a "good" critic's review of a Star Wars film. If I were a critic, I would probably get chased out of town because I try to find the "good" in any movie. Unless it's based on "factual events", I usually just watch movies for pure entertainment. As much as I like House of 1000 Corpses, I still found faults in it, but I watched it as a person sitting down for and hour and a half, trying to forget about the daily hussle and bussle. Not as a reviewer, there to point out plot holes or bad dialogue.
My opinion on critics is, that they purposely write bad reviews about movies to make themsleves look "above" the average movie goer. If they wrote honest reviews about whether they were entertained, laughed, cried, got p***ed off, whatever, people might be more apt to trust their opinions....but that's just my opinion :D

Sorry for the rant.

RooJay
05-05-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
There were over 60 hours of footage for ESB,

Wow! Really? Where'd that bit of info come from? Not that I'm questioning it's validity, but just that now I'm jazzed to see some of this other footage!:sur: :D

JediTricks
05-05-2003, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
(in reference to 60 hours of unused ESB footage)
Wow! Really? Where'd that bit of info come from? Not that I'm questioning it's validity, but just that now I'm jazzed to see some of this other footage!:sur: :D It's from the same book, the person who sent me the excerpt mentioned that first - that's how the discsussion about this alternate ESB came up and why he sent me the the page that I posted above (he sent it as a scan, I retyped it and added the name clarifications in brackets).


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
That many hours of footage is far from unheard of on a major motion picture.
Yeah, that's what I told the person who sent me the excerpt. But still, that's over 2 days of Star Wars we haven't seen.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
And yeah Rogue II, basically that's what he's trying to say. Don't tell people what I'm "basically" trying to say - my words speak for themselves. As to what Rogue asked, "So what you're saying is ATOC and TPM aren't all that great because no one stood up to Lucas?" While I've mentioned that opinion before on the forums, that's not what this thread is saying, if it were I would have posted it in the Ep 1 or Ep 2 section. You can infer whatever you like from the text, but the points I'm implying here (an implication is on the part of the author, an inference is on the part of the reader) is that there may be a different version of ESB out there, and secondarily that it took more than just 1 person to make ESB the great film that it is.



Originally posted by JarJarBinks
there were quite a few [ESB] reviews that sound as bad as many reveiews for the prequels. Yeah, but how many of those bad reviews came from George Lucas himself???

Beast
05-05-2003, 10:56 PM
So basically that is what you were trying to say, judging from the mentions of that opinion that is littered thru the forums by yourself. It's called deductive reasoning, indicated by the wealth of evidence. It's an opinion based upon the facts that are easily found in searching your past posts.

Maybe if your thread wasn't filled with veiled prequel slams, people wouldn't have to comment on what you were basically trying to say. Just like almost everytime you mention the OT, there is typically a veiled remark twords the prequels. It doesn't take a whole lot of searching to see it.

And since the majority of the thread talks about ESB, you had to place it here in the CT section, or it would have been moved. But it still has bearing on your opinion of the PT, just from how you worded it. Or is my opinion on your opinion,not appreciated in your thread? If so, please delete my posts, Mr Tricks. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JediTricks
05-05-2003, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
So basically that is what you were trying to say, judging from the mentions of that opinion that is littered thru the forums by yourself. It's called deductive reasoning, indicated by the wealth of evidence. It's an opinion based upon the facts that are easily found in searching your past posts. Apparently, reading a post is no longer fundamental to commenting on it for jarjarbinks. Deduct all you want, but ultimately you are making the wrong inference and I'd appreciate it if you didn't take some false voice of authority in telling others what MY words mean. In fact, you can apply that to every single forum user here - I don't want to see you TELLING people what others are trying to say when you are only making an INFERENCE, you're not in their heads so don't go acting like you are.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Maybe if your thread wasn't filled with veiled prequel slams, people wouldn't have to comment on what you were basically trying to say.Pray tell, where in the opening post do I imply anything - veiled or not - about the prequels? The answer is nowhere because that was never my IMPLICATION, only your INFERENCE. Let's analyze what I wrote in this post and maybe we'll be able to get to the bottom of this:
"You're Ruining My Movie!" -or- the ESB that almost was (Don't see anything about the prequels in the title)
Someone sent me an exerpt from the book "Empire Building" that seemed interesting. Lucas was very hands-off with ESB and rarely visited the production, but in this instance he did... (Hmm, nothing veiled about the prequels here)
There were over 60 hours of footage for ESB, obviously most was not used and probably will never see the light of day again -- if it even exists at all. (Very specifically NOT about the prequels)
But I wonder what happened to Lucas' edit of the film, did they destroy it or is it in some vault somewhere? (Maybe you were confused as to which film I was mentioning here. Otherwise, I don't see how this could tie into the prequels)
This excerpt speaks of the great teamwork that went into making the film, and certainly these people weren't the only ones involved with making the first 2 Star Wars films. (Well, maybe you were confused about which "first 2 Star Wars films" I was referring to - it was ANH and ESB - but other than that, I only see my words applauding those who made ANH and ESB)


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
And since the majority of the thread talks about ESB, you had to place it here in the CT section, or it would have been moved. Or is my opinion on your opinion,not appreciated in your thread? If so, please delete my posts, Mr Tricks. So it appears based on your INCORRECT inferences where you ASSUME what was in my head when I wrote this thread (or whenever I post about the OT apparently, according to your most recent edit), you're now attacking my character - that is rude and uncalled for. You can have an opinion about what you infer from my posts and even my previously-stated opinions, but when you go around stating as fact what my intentions are, that crosses the line.

You can discuss the issue at hand or you can leave, but no more of this off-topic argument in here - if you feel compelled to tell me something else about this, do it in PM or email.

DarthChuckMc
05-05-2003, 11:52 PM
Just playing devils advocate here...but the 1st assumption was made by Rouge II (not pointing fingers here). I read it as a jab at the PT, but nothing more than a joke really. JJB merely ran with it. To get all bent out of shape here with each other seems a tad overboard.

Then again, maybe I'll just shut up.....

Jedi_Master_Guyute
05-06-2003, 08:33 AM
Man, i do remember when this post was about ESB and not a bickering contest between you two crazy kids. Funny, i have to be the big guy and ask, "Hey, could this get back on Topic?"
Odd, i don't even see the word "Moderator" under my name. :)

Anyway, moving ON, this is truly wacked out news. However, i do think that the comment, "I'm on the hook for the money" seems a bit wacky, even for Lucas. Interesting find though! Gracias JT! :D

Jargo
05-06-2003, 09:34 AM
Y'know the way i see Lucas is that everyone around him is running down a road to get the picture finished and they all stay on the road and stay straight and true and then you have lucas running alongside in the dirt track just off kilter. Just off the main track kind of at odds with his objective. Do you follow my meaning? I'm kind of the same way myself. I've worked as an actor and found that i always thought differently to other people. They'd all be sort of headlong forward towards a goal of opening night like freight train in full steam and I'd be off at a tangent running alongside but veering off at weird angles and coming to the production with skewed ideas. I'm not saying that I'm like Lucas at all but just that i begin to understand how his mind seems to view things and why he sometimes makes the weirdest decisions that seem so at odds with the rest of the project. I still think his off the wall decisions are bad ones but that's neither here nor there. And it doesn't surprise me at all to learn of alternate edits of the movie ESB. Lucas is pretty much a control freak. He gave over his baby to Kersch and couldn't handle it so tried to regain control but because he wasn't the one who filmed the stuff and wasn't the one to get the juice out of the actors he didn't have a clue how to edit it. Being outside looking in he wasn't tapped in to the emotional investment of the team. In fact I don't think he's capable of filming emotions. He has such a hard tme expressing himself how's he going to iliicit emotional responses from actors? or show them correctly? I'd love to see Lucas' edits of ANH and ESB. See what a mess he'd made before having his butt saved by real editors.

Rogue II
05-06-2003, 12:21 PM
Geez, what did I start? Is it because I didn't put a ":crazed:" at the end of my post?;)

My friend DarthChuckMc had it right. I was taking a shot at the prequels. Just a joke, get it? Ha ha.:D Woo!

keith koth
05-06-2003, 02:06 PM
Wow, a bicker fest that I was not involved in. :mad: :rolleyes:

How could that have happened?!?! :confused: ;)

Well, I guess I'm not so bad after all! :eek: :D

mini-rock
05-06-2003, 10:35 PM
ESB is still GL's no matter who ended up editing it. Bottom line is it came for GL's mind, PERIOD. GL was smart though to give the film back to Kersh since he obviously knew that no matter how he "cut" the film he couldn't fix that terrible mess. The only thing ESB has got going for it is the revelation at the end, otherwise it's crap. Thankfully though GL has full control from the get-go with the prequels so he doesn't have to worry about some wannabe's screwing up HIS vision.:)

LTBasker
05-07-2003, 12:20 AM
I think the reason why Lucas was reacting the way he was in that whole thing, was because he was new at being in that much limelight, and he just need a quick snap back. However I do believe that right now he needs another snap back, as he has gotten a little to ahead of himself I'm not talking about just for the PT, but in several things. I think he should probably look back on that edit of ESB, and figure out if he really doesn't want others' help. Ego can do that to ya...

Btw, in case this thread doesn't get back on track...

Beast
05-07-2003, 01:42 AM
As long as he fixes the craptaculaer O.L.M.E. Emperor in Empire I'll be happy as a hell. I hate that terrible hologram and with Ian McDiarmid being so easy to grab since he's currently working on the prequels it shouldn't be that incredibly hard to do. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

TheDarthVader
05-07-2003, 10:54 PM
I agree with that! That hologram is pitiful. It needs to be fixed. That and the battle of Hoth. (Where we see like twenty rebel soldiers...we need more!!!!) The battle needs to be extended a little more too. Come on George, I know you can do it...so DO IT!

JediTricks
05-07-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
Just playing devils advocate here... Shyeah, like the devil doesn't have enough lawyers around him already. ;)


Originally posted by Jedi_Master_Guyute
Odd, i don't even see the word "Moderator" under my name. :)

Anyway, moving ON, this is truly wacked out news. However, i do think that the comment, "I'm on the hook for the money" seems a bit wacky, even for Lucas. Interesting find though! Gracias JT! :D It does say "ambassador" though. :p

As for that quote, it seemed a little odd in the language department (unless this is 1954 and Lucas is a VP at MGM ;)) but I chalked it up to Lucas being excentric or something akin to that. He was on the hook for a lot of money though, up until ANH's big money came in for Lucas in the form of merchandising and BO returns, he had been a starving filmmaker whose friends and community were also mostly starving filmmakers - I can't imagine anybody being held responsible for a big-budget film like ESB who wouldn't feel a little pressure.


Jargo, I see what you mean, but it seems to me like Lucas and McQuarrie used to feed off each other to build greater and greater concepts, McQuarrie is a genius in my book so Lucas couldn't have been that much of odds with his own agenda - plus, he brought in Kurtz to produce ANH and keep his wildest ideas in check.

Lucas trained to be a technical moviemaker, not a director. He trained to be a cinematographer IIRC, not a producer. American Grafitti really threw him into those roles and that was mostly based on raw determination, pre-inspriation by a soundtrack, and a fairly straightforward documentary-style approach to the film. This is not what directing actors is all about, directing actors takes an ability to form the emotional center of a scene for them and being able to see when they're not following it I think.



TDV, this is still a fairly small band; they're using equipment not to defeat the enemy, but just to distract them while the rest of the Rebs get out of harm's way. I think showing too many Reb soldiers in that scene wouldn't make sense, it's not supposed to be a massive army defending their home planet.

mini-rock
05-08-2003, 12:05 AM
I agree TDV. The Battle of Hoth should be larger. Not as massive as The Battle of Geonosis, but something close to the size of The Naboo Battle's scale would be cool. I'd love it if more AT-AT's were added and some Snowtroops on the ground, along with a couple hundred Rebel Soldiers. Make it more of a REAL battle.:)

stillakid
05-08-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Someone sent me an exerpt from the book "Empire Building" that seemed interesting. Lucas was very hands-off with ESB and rarely visited the production, but in this instance he did...



There were over 60 hours of footage for ESB, obviously most was not used and probably will never see the light of day again -- if it even exists at all. But I wonder what happened to Lucas' edit of the film, did they destroy it or is it in some vault somewhere? This excerpt speaks of the great teamwork that went into making the film, and certainly these people weren't the only ones involved with making the first 2 Star Wars films.

For the most part, it isn't done this way anymore (non-linear digital editing has taken over), but he most likely took the cut that was originally done and cut pieces out of that instead of starting over from scratch with a new answerprint. 2 days is simply not enough time to edit a 2 hour movie. Point being is that once he was finished getting that out of his system, the editor probably either salvaged that filmstock to continue doing what he was doing (thus destroying Lucas's cut) or they struck a new print for him to work from and still tossed out that previous train wreck. Chances are that no such "Lucas cut" existed for more than a couple days.

As far as the "lost footage" goes, 35mm is typically burned through the camera at 90 ft per minute (that's about 11 minutes per 1000 ft. magazine). It's not unusual for a movie to shoot a million feet or more. Some of that is in extra scenes that are eventually cut but more often the excess is in extra takes. So, yeah, there might be another 60 hours of footage, but most of it is probably blown takes or something. The mistakes, in other words. Interesting? Maybe. Dick Clark can do a special on it someday. ;)


And why bandy words. JT's post certainly did not mention the Prequels at all, but GEORGE'S own actions implicate his lack of collaboration. Don't get angry at JT or anyone else for the poor way the Prequel's turned out in comparison. It's George's own fault for pulling that ego trip to take back total control. All of his previously successful projects had been accomplished with help from talented writers, yet HE was the one that chose to not get that type of help with the Prequel's. The difference is obvious and the evidence for why is compelling. Don't kill the messengers. It's his own fault for attracting this kind of criticism.

mini-rock
05-08-2003, 12:41 AM
Now that I think about it, I bet GL adds more to the death star battle at the end of ANH too. With the exception of the Endor battle, the other OT battles fall short, and are completely poor in quality. They may have worked back in the late 70's to mid 80's, but this is 2003, and now GL can truly express his vision without the interference of crackpots who think they know what his vision is but do not have a clue.

stillakid
05-08-2003, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock
and now GL can truly express his vision without the interference of crackpots who think they know what his vision is but do not have a clue.

I suppose that list of "crackpots" would include:

Lawrence Kasdan (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Kasdan,+Lawrence), whose credits include Wyatt Earp, Grand Canyon, The Accidental Tourist, The Empire Strikes Back, Silverado, The Big Chill, Return of the Jedi, Body Heat, and Raiders of the Lost Ark to name a few.

Gary Kurz (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Kurtz,%20Gary), whose credits include The Dark Crystal, Star Wars, and American Graffiti.

John Williams (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Williams,%20John) whose extensive credits include all of the Star Wars films, the Harry Potter films, Minority Report, Jurassic Park, AI, Jaws, Pearl Harbor, the Indiana Jones films, Schindler's List, etc etc etc.

Richard Chew (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Chew,%20Richard) whose credits include I Am Sam, That Thing You Do!, Risky Business, Star Wars, The Conversation, amongst others.

Paul Hirsch (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Hirsch,%20Paul%20(I)) whose editing includes Mighty Joe Young, Mission Impossible, Falling Down, Star Wars, Steel Magnolias, Ferris Bueller's Day Off, The Empire Strikes Back.

Should I continue?

TheDarthVader
05-08-2003, 11:40 PM
I agree mini-rock. They need to add more to the Death Star battle in ANH. The Death Star II battle in ROTJ was far more spectacular. I am looking forward to the "archival" editions!! :)

The Overlord Returns
05-09-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
I suppose that list of "crackpots" would include:

Lawrence Kasdan (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Kasdan,+Lawrence), whose credits include Wyatt Earp, Grand Canyon, The Big Chill,


John Williams (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Williams,%20John) whose extensive credits include Pearl Harbor,

Richard Chew (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Chew,%20Richard) whose credits include I Am Sam,

Paul Hirsch (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Hirsch,%20Paul%20(I)) whose editing includes Mighty Joe Young,




I'd just like to point out that the above examples should NEVER be used when attempting to laud the talent of any individual ;)

2-1B
05-09-2003, 01:58 PM
LOL, you can put Gary Kurtz and Mark Hamill's megastinker "Slipstream" into that category as well. :D

stillakid
05-10-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
LOL, you can put Gary Kurtz and Mark Hamill's megastinker "Slipstream" into that category as well. :D

Everybody has their bad days. ;)

For that matter, I can't think of one "successful" director, producer, writer,...whatever, who has a "perfect" record. Practically every creative person pushes out a stinky mess at some point. As bad as TPM seems to be, Howard the Duck is still Lucas's finest effort. :)

2-1B
05-11-2003, 01:20 AM
I hear ya stillakid, I just like to poke at Gary Kurtz since he's revered as such a sacred cow. :D
I look at his credits and (save for his SW involvement) I'm not all that impressed.
Yet he does have that whole "selling off loads of SW memorabillia on eBay" thing going for him, so I wish him the best with that . . . :rolleyes:

:crazed:

stillakid
05-12-2003, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
I hear ya stillakid, I just like to poke at Gary Kurtz since he's revered as such a sacred cow. :D
I look at his credits and (save for his SW involvement) I'm not all that impressed.
Yet he does have that whole "selling off loads of SW memorabillia on eBay" thing going for him, so I wish him the best with that . . . :rolleyes:

:crazed:

I suppose you're right. I should have concentrated more on the crackpots from ILM, the other two directors, and the other writers George had help him with the series. Point being, for the most part, they've all had moderate success at the least, successful careers at best. Very few have failed outright and practically none could be considered a "crackpot." It might be argued that Rick is one, but he has taken on the role of "facilitator" more than creative executive. Can't blame him for knowing which side is bread is buttered on. If Lucas wants to hoard the creative decisions this time 'round, it's his perojative. But what seems clear to me anyway, is that Lucas's work over his career tended to be far more popular (critically as well) when he allowed other people to help him where he was deficient. He does that with conceptual art, music, and effects. He used to do it with the writing as well, but chose to stop for the Prequels. I don't get it. :cry:


PS: What else does Kurz have? We need a sticky post for his collection. :Pirate:

Mike Troxell
05-13-2003, 09:25 PM
John Williams did not score Pearl Harbor. Hans Zimmer did, and for such a subpar movie, the score is quite decent.

Thank the maker Lucas didn't get his way with ESB.

stillakid
05-13-2003, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Mike Troxell
John Williams did not score Pearl Harbor. Hans Zimmer did, and for such a subpar movie, the score is quite decent.

Thank the maker Lucas didn't get his way with ESB.

Pearl Harbor (2001) (uncredited) (music from Midway, 1976)
... aka Pearl Harbour (2001) (UK: promotional title)

Mike Troxell
05-13-2003, 10:43 PM
Never trust IMDB. If part of his score to Midway was in there, it was a brief snippet.

http://www.filmtracks.com/titles/pearl_harbor.html

Good album. I highly recommend it.

stillakid
05-13-2003, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Mike Troxell
Never trust IMDB.

True, there are some errors. I sent corrections for my own information and they still screwed some of it up.

But anyway, the point is that MiniRock is calling John Williams a crackpot. Maybe he is, but his track record doesn't appear to support that notion.

Mike Troxell
05-13-2003, 10:56 PM
Yeah, I know. I LOVE John Williams. He and Danny Elfman are probably the only two composers I know that I'll buy a score without even hearing it first. I trust them as musicians, where Zimmer, Shore, Goldsmith, Powell, Goldenthal, etc., etc. are all hit or miss in my book. I was just doing a little factchecking is all :)

mini-rock
05-13-2003, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Mike Troxell
Yeah, I know. I LOVE John Williams. He and Danny Elfman are probably the only two composers I know that I'll buy a score without even hearing it first.

I couldn't agree more. Both are truly extrodinary composers. I'm hoping for more John Williams on SACD.:)

stillakid
05-14-2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by mini-rock
I couldn't agree more. Both are truly extrodinary composers. I'm hoping for more John Williams on SACD.:)

But you said he was a crackpot! You're either a hypocrite or a liar. :mad:




;) *Note: for those that aren't aware, Senior MiniRock has placed me on his "ignore" list of one so my posts are invisible to him. :cool: <-- signifies blinders for today. :happy:

JediTricks
05-14-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Mike Troxell
Yeah, I know. I LOVE John Williams. He and Danny Elfman are probably the only two composers I know that I'll buy a score without even hearing it first. I trust them as musicians, where Zimmer, Shore, Goldsmith, Powell, Goldenthal, etc., etc. are all hit or miss in my book. I was just doing a little factchecking is all :) I was going through the Pee-Wee's Big Adventure DVD I picked up a while back and started listening to Danny Elfman's score-only commentary. It's hard to believe how Elfman first teamed up with Tim Burton and first composed the score to a major film with such a strange little film (granted, I think it's a great film, it's just a strange starting point for Burton, Elfman, and the Burton/Elfman team-ups). I think Elfman is a great score composer and has done a lot for cinema in general, but sometimes I think his post-Batman work has felt a little too limited, much of it feeling at least partially based around the Batscore. (The theme to the Dilbert cartoon is a welcome exception to that opinion though)

As for Williams, I love pretty much everything he does, and most of it has a signature sound or feel, but I really don't think the soundtracks to Eps 1 or 2 are as good as his other work (yes, even his Jurassic Park score - didn't love the movie, but the score is unforgettable). While Williams and Elfman are head and shoulders above the rest of Hollywood's current composers, I don't think they're bulletproof anymore.