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Patient Zero
05-16-2003, 01:39 PM
I’m not sure if any of this should be considered spoilers as the movie is already out, but I thought that I should be considerate as there are surely some that have not seen it yet. I leave it to the moderator’s disgression as to merge it with another Matrix thread. I broke down, dealt with the crowds and saw the movie last night and have some comments, possible reasoning and inquiries concerning the movie Reloaded and the series in general. As everything is connected to everything else ;), some of these thoughts might be a bit jumbled.

1. The most important question would be what exactly happened at the moment when Neo stopped the sentinels in, what Morpheus called, the “desert of the real”?

One explanation is that the ‘real’ world is just another matrix outside of the matrix. So why? Since a major running theme is that of choices and the illusion that our choices are free, this second matrix could be another illusion of the freedom of choice. By this I mean to say that, there are those that choose, when the ability to choose is known, to live in the computer world of the matrix or to choose to live in the “desert of the real”, but what if the ‘real’ world is not really real at all and just another illusion to allow the individual to believe that they are making a free choice? Again, why would the computers do this? Well, it is stated time and time again that humans rejected the “programming to describe their perfect world and whole crops were lost” and that “humans define themselves through misery” and the idea that they can choose. Crops? Yes, the energy source for the machines; humans in tanks giving off heat to be converted as usable energy. So this matrix inside a matrix would be the illusion to make choices to an even further extent. Even though I am not partial to this idea the reasoning makes sense.

The opposite side of the coin, and much more interesting, is that the “desert of the real” is the real world. Which opens one hell of a big can of worms. How can Neo produce an EMP (electro-magnetic pulse) or any other super human ability outside of the computer program? Perhaps this is a commentary on how the computer-generated world of the matrix is not that dissimilar to the world that we believe in. Perhaps Neo can change things in the real world because he is no longer confined by the boundaries of what he believes he can and cannot do. This is a running theme in Buddhism, specifically Taoism, or you could just research the allegory of the Cave in Plato’s Republic. I could go into this in great detail, but it is not my intention to insert my personal philosophy into this discussion so I wont. I am merely interested in what the writers are trying to convey.

With this last possibility, there is an interesting idea that came to me. Remember when Tank, or was it Dozer, was feeding Neo fighting programs in the first movie and stated something to the effect of “he’s (Neo) been at it 10 hours straight. He’s a machine”. Well, what if he is? Agent Smith is a machine and he was able to come over the ‘real’ world. Which brings me to another idea. It is insinuated that ‘Real’ Smith triggered an EMP that disabled the ships that he was with and the sentinels slaughtered them all. Since Neo and ‘Real’ Smith are both in comas at the end of the film and Neo produced an EMP by himself. It would be fairly save to assume that Smith might have triggered the pulse without the use of the device in the ship. This leads to a lot more questions that I will get into later.

2. Who are the 6 other messiahs that the Architect spoke of and are they still around?

I think that one could be the snotty French guy. He seems like he buys into all of the Architect’s ideas and is now just another toady; he also seems to have a lot of toadies of his own that are old models. His girlfriend is the one that lead me to believe this though as she stated that he used to be just like Neo.

How about chancellor Hamman or others of the council? Could they be some of the last ‘new recruits’ (those said to rebuild Zion) from the last time that the Matrix was ‘Reloaded’ by the choice of the last Neo like character? Hamman did seem to insinuate that the machines and humans almost ‘needed’ one another to survive as if he was trying to set Neo up for something in the future or even a possible solution to the power struggle.

Two other ideas that I have not given much thought, but that I have heard are Agent Smith and the Architect himself. Smith did mention that he wanted what Neo wanted and he does seem to be able to do similar things that Neo can do. As for the Architect, I don’t think that I buy it, but I’d love to hear other’s ideas.


3. Symbolic characters.

Since I can’t really go into religion here, it is a bit difficult to talk about this. But there is a definite God/Devil/Messiah theme going on with the Architect (God), Neo (Messiah), and the Oracle (Devil). But you can’t think about it in a Good/Evil way. Think about it more as the ability to choose as in the story of the apple of knowledge and the Garden of Eden. Please do not talk about this in specific religious terms as the thread will get closed, but I am really interested to know if anyone knows how the Key maker fits into this symbolic structure.

Note to Mod: If this section of my post is too much in the discussing religion category, please delete section 3 of my post only. I only mean to talk about this as character profile types.

Your friendly neighborhood movie moderator here. You can discuss these religious themes and how they are portrayed in the Matrix, that is all right to do. Just don't discuss it as religion alone, make sure it's related to the movie somehow, like Jonna's done with his observation/analysis. Anyone who feels like testing this, please think otherwise, as your post will be deleted and you will be reported. Ok, back to Jonna.

4. What exactly is the Architect and why create someone like Neo in the first place?

Even though I have only seen the film once, I would have to say that the Architect is indeed what he seems to be: the Go….err…head honcho figure or Father computer making sure that he raises his children in the way that he wants them to evolve and in doing so evolve himself. So why create a messiah character like Neo and the other six that are led to believe that they have the possibility of destroying the Architect? This is for the reason that I have already stated: for his, the computer’s, own evolution and perfection of the matrix to better control humans. However, another interesting idea goes back to my statement of Neo being a machine, human or human machine as is ‘Real World’ Smith. This would win the battle for the machines, as they would destroy humanity by infesting the bodies of humans and killing the human mind. Neo’s existence could be because the Architect had this evolution in mind the entire time. Or could Neo, even though he may be a computer himself, find a way to destroy the computers and the Architect? We’ll just have to wait and see.



I am getting tired, but I want to pose two more questions/ideas. Has anyone noticed that in both movies all of the screen shots inside of the ‘known’ matrix have a green tint and all of the screen shots outside of it have a blue tint? It’s true, but I haven’t a solid enough theory to mention. Also the 3rd movie is called Revolutions, is this referring to the cyclic pattern of the Neo like character in the matrix?

icatch9
05-16-2003, 02:31 PM
Wow, I read the whole thing and I cannot comment on everything now, but you make a lot of sense.

Here is what I think.

Though the idea that the other 6 "Massiahs" are still around and floating in the matrix is cool, I don't think that is what he ment. I think the other six are long dead. If this is the Matrix 6.0 than the others would have been disgarded. So, they are dead and the Matrix Neo knows is a whole new one. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's the way I took it. Though your idea is very cool and would be good in the movie.

The Archatect said that the current Matrix worked 99% of the time. Meaning that 1% of the people would reject the program. Thus, accounting for individuals like Neo and Morpheus. He said this 99% succes rate was created by the Orecal, and that it was better than anything he could come up with. He said it was necessary but only becasue a perfect Matrix did and wouldn't work. So, 99% isn't bad. Remeber that the 1% haven't ever been a problem and they've failed 6 times.

Interesting idea that Neo is a program too. Perhaps that's true. I thought too, that the "real world" was just another Martix. That too is a strong possibility. I had visions of the end of Revolutions being a bit of a bumber. What I mean is the story is completed the war is over and Neo saves the day. Happy ending and all that jazz. Just to find out that the whole story was just another dream and Neo and the gang are still locked in living coffens producing BTU's. Perhaps this would put a bad taste in fans mouths, but it sure would blow your mind.

Only 5 months until we find out I guess :D.

Patient Zero
05-16-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by icatch9
Though the idea that the other 6 "Massiahs" are still around and floating in the matrix is cool, I don't think that is what he ment. I think the other six are long dead. If this is the Matrix 6.0 than the others would have been disgarded. So, they are dead and the Matrix Neo knows is a whole new one. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's the way I took it. Though your idea is very cool and would be good in the movie.



I am just going on the vague memory that the Architect stated something about Neo being reinstated into the matrix, but like I said I only saw it once and it was alot of info to take in. It seemed an interesting idea that the Architect would be using the messiahs to actually work against their own ideologies and then make them monkey butt slaves after the messiahs realized that they they really did not have 'free' freewill. The messiahs would then submit to save the human race and then help the Architect to improve the matrix because they felt that they didn't have a choice. This idea was based mostly on the Architect's speech and that annoying french guy. But perhapse it's just me. :D

James Boba Fettfield
05-16-2003, 03:37 PM
The post is fine with me. I'll leave this topic by itself, so if you guys want to discuss the Matrix stuff into detail, then that's what this will be here for. Not so much reviews, but more of the themes and stuff like you started.....I think that's what you're trying to do with this thread.

Eternal Padawan
05-16-2003, 03:38 PM
Here's a major spoiler: After the credits roll on the third film, it's going to cut back to a psyche ward and the camera dollies up to a window into a rubber room, where we see Mr. Anderson in a strait jacket screaming "I'm the one! I'm the ONE!"

So the whole thing was in his head. SUCKERS! :evil:

vulcantouch
05-17-2003, 01:27 PM
see, this is why i love criticism; whether it arrives at satisfactory answers or not it sure is a lively ride, takin you deeper into whatever art you dig :) what fine contributions you'd make to the Hump (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2216&perpage=15&pagenumber=1), so hope 2 see u there sometime :)
i look forward to baggin this tome (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/081269502X/qid=1053195046/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-6145540-2320857) for a song- which, if you're familiar with my hunt metier & xploits (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=229781#post229781), you already know is imo the Only way to bag :cool:
vt

darthvyn
05-17-2003, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna


the architect describes his failure to perfect the amount of acceptance (100%) and that a type of failsafe was included to take care of the 1% that reject the programming - i.e. morpheus, trinity, neo... anyone that feels that the world around them isn't quite right.

the oracle (an "intuitive program") was developed to take care of this 1% (or so i gather...)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna

[b] 1. The most important question would be what exactly happened at the moment when Neo stopped the sentinels in, what Morpheus called, the “desert of the real”?

One explanation is that the ‘real’ world is just another matrix outside of the matrix. So why? Since a major running theme is that of choices and the illusion that our choices are free, this second matrix could be another illusion of the freedom of choice. By this I mean to say that, there are those that choose, when the ability to choose is known, to live in the computer world of the matrix or to choose to live in the “desert of the real”, but what if the ‘real’ world is not really real at all and just another illusion to allow the individual to believe that they are making a free choice? Again, why would the computers do this? Well, it is stated time and time again that humans rejected the “programming to describe their perfect world and whole crops were lost” and that “humans define themselves through misery” and the idea that they can choose. Crops? Yes, the energy source for the machines; humans in tanks giving off heat to be converted as usable energy. So this matrix inside a matrix would be the illusion to make choices to an even further extent. Even though I am not partial to this idea the reasoning makes sense.

this way, the architect created the matrix, and the oracle created the "desert of the real." this is interesting, because the architect, as a cold unfeeling character presence makes us dislike him, yet the oracle with her "grandma" charm makes us feel good about her. however, our feelings are flipped from what they really should be, as the oracle is completely deceitful, down to the line "... you've made a believer out of me." taken in this light, the line is almost insulting! to paraphrase another incredible movie, the best trick the devil ever pulled was making you think he was the good guy...



Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna

The opposite side of the coin, and much more interesting, is that the “desert of the real” is the real world. Which opens one hell of a big can of worms. How can Neo produce an EMP (electro-magnetic pulse) or any other super human ability outside of the computer program? Perhaps this is a commentary on how the computer-generated world of the matrix is not that dissimilar to the world that we believe in. Perhaps Neo can change things in the real world because he is no longer confined by the boundaries of what he believes he can and cannot do. This is a running theme in Buddhism, specifically Taoism, or you could just research the allegory of the Cave in Plato’s Republic. I could go into this in great detail, but it is not my intention to insert my personal philosophy into this discussion so I wont. I am merely interested in what the writers are trying to convey.

while i see the other theory as more plausible in the grand scheme of things, this would be an interesting way to go as well... the unlearing process of what is humanly and physically possible in the matrix may have triggered the same process in the real world. just as there are rules in the computer system that can be bent and broken, perhaps they are saying the rules of physics and nature can as well. the chi, the luminous beings, the spirit, whatever you want to call it, is the focus here. mind over matter. he has already staved off his own death in the first movie. the real world body died when he had been shot. the real world body came back to life when he realized he hadn't really been shot at all, and the computer had just told him so. how different is that from a miracle completely outside the matrix? not very...


Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna

With this last possibility, there is an interesting idea that came to me. Remember when Tank, or was it Dozer, was feeding Neo fighting programs in the first movie and stated something to the effect of “he’s (Neo) been at it 10 hours straight. He’s a machine”. Well, what if he is? Agent Smith is a machine and he was able to come over the ‘real’ world. Which brings me to another idea. It is insinuated that ‘Real’ Smith triggered an EMP that disabled the ships that he was with and the sentinels slaughtered them all. Since Neo and ‘Real’ Smith are both in comas at the end of the film and Neo produced an EMP by himself. It would be fairly save to assume that Smith might have triggered the pulse without the use of the device in the ship. This leads to a lot more questions that I will get into later.

(i call 'real' smith "banesmith," as it is not clear how much of the character called bane remains in the 'real-world' body...)

well, neo is either a construct of the matrix as well, seeing as how the architect told him that his life was the answer to an unbalanced equation blah, blah, blah... or he is a machine of bone and muscle and blood - we are all machines, just meat machines... i hadn't thought about the idea that banesmith might have triggered an emp from his body, just as neo had... i want to hear those questions...


Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna

2. Who are the 6 other messiahs that the Architect spoke of and are they still around?

I think that one could be the snotty French guy. He seems like he buys into all of the Architect’s ideas and is now just another toady; he also seems to have a lot of toadies of his own that are old models. His girlfriend is the one that lead me to believe this though as she stated that he used to be just like Neo.

another interesting thought... my take on it, however, was that it was always neo each time - in the architects monitors, after neo says "you still haven't answered my question" the architect says "quite right... the others didn't catch on that fast" or something to that effect. neo says "others?" as the monitors all start to say different things, hinting to the fact that it was him all the other times.

but the merovingian being one of them raises interesting ideas, though he does say "i've survived your predecessors, and i'll survive you..." it seems that the merovingian and persephone were constructs of the matrix to give them more insight into the culture (M) and feelings (P) of humans. it just made sense for them to be together as they studied humans, probably to help the architect write better programs. the merovingian dynasty is seen as the first french kingdom. i don't know how this relates to the character other than the fact that he adopted french as his culture... there might be something in the history of the merovingian dynasty that mirrors his actions.

here's a brief description of the merovingian dynasty.

http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=397220

the only thing that stands out is the phrase "The pattern of dividing and then reuniting the realm continued for generations." - perhaps the dividing and reuniting of the matrix between those that accept the program and those that "drop out?"

persephone, however, is more straightfoward - greek goddess abducted and married to hades, greek god of the underworld. the merovingian's look of a gangster (underworld) his evil quest for power, and his mischievousness ("this is only a game") all signify a devilish character.

persephone is the daughter of zeus and demeter, who when persephone is abducted by hades creates the seasons. here's the back story on that...

http://www.messagenet.com/myths/bios/persephone.html

the line "giving us the sweetness of Spring and the bitterness of Winter" shows her character traits - that of kindness and sweetness to neo, and the bitterness and coldness to the merovingian.

more to come. i have to let some things settle in my brain...

mrmiller
05-17-2003, 10:53 PM
I had something I wanted to say, but after reading all the posts my head hurts. That's why I love these forums, cool and intelligent discussions. Not just another "It Rocks!" or "You're Stupid" two word posts. Soon as my head stops swimming, I'll post some of my ideas- keep up the good work all.


=MATT=

Fulit
05-17-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by Eternal Padawan
Here's a major spoiler: After the credits roll on the third film, it's going to cut back to a psyche ward and the camera dollies up to a window into a rubber room, where we see Mr. Anderson in a strait jacket screaming "I'm the one! I'm the ONE!"

So the whole thing was in his head. SUCKERS! :evil:

I vote for Eternal Padawan. Now that's an ending. With all the wagons I've been falling off lately, I need a thoughtless ending.

James Boba Fettfield
05-17-2003, 11:31 PM
Here's a question I had. The Oracle mentions stuff about aliens, ghosts, etc. and tells why they're caused in the Matrix. Then there's that scene with Persephone asking one of her husband's guards how many people keep silver bullets in their guns before she shoots him. Now, was that guy a werewolf? I know this isn't as deep as the things you guys are discussing, but I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this. Also, he's got those twins who can do some "ghost" like things. Anyway, I thought that was cool for the writers to put in the film.

Eternal Padawan
05-18-2003, 07:19 AM
I read that the twins were "ghosts" ( as opposed to albino twins)so that connection makes sense. I didn't catch the silver bullet comment. Maybe I just couldn't translate Monica's thick accent fast enough in my head. Or it could have been how she said these two were notoriously difficult to kill, then shot the grinning idiot without so much as a by your leave....so werewolf, or grinning idiot boy. Sure.

darthvyn
05-18-2003, 10:18 AM
i kinda thought they were vampires, as i'm pretty sure the oracle included vampires in her little speach about obsolete programs. and they were watching a cheesey vampire movie when they all walked in... did she say werewolves as well? i don't remember.

yeah, persephone says something to the effect of "... but like most early programs they caused more trouble than they fixed. my husband keeps them around because they are notoriously hard to kill. do you know anyone else who carries silver bullets in their gun?" or something like that. and then she shoots the dude.

James Boba Fettfield
05-18-2003, 11:16 AM
No no, she didn't say werewolves in her speech, but that's what came to my mind when she mentioned the silver bullets. Maybe they were supposed to be vampires, I guess I'll know when the dvd comes out and the commentary says something.

Patient Zero
05-19-2003, 10:41 AM
Great pick-up on the whole 'monster squad', guys! I completely overlooked this one. Well, we have the twins (ghosts), the two henchmen (silver bullets kill werewolves) watching the old vampire film and I have heard that in the video game it is insinuated that Persephone is a vampire or that Neo fights vampires or something. Can anyone confirm this?

I am still racking my brain over the Keymaker. Is his real purpose to enforce the idea that everything is merely a means to an end? Hence, a key for every door (aka every choice leading to another choice that has already been decided or set into motion and predictable because of every choice that was made before it)? I did see it again over the weekend and noticed that in the car chase scene, the agents say that only the outcast (Keymaker) is important. So why are they referring to him as the 'Outcast'? He also knew that Neo was coming for him. How? You could say that he was part of the cycle with all of the Neos, but then he dies at the end of this cycle. Are we to believe that this cycle is truly different from the others? More questions than answers, I’m afraid.

Stupid observation, but I have heard people question it. Why can no one remember the prior ‘Revolutions’? Well, the only people that would remember are those that are in the ‘desert of the real’ and all of them are going to be destroyed at the end of the cycle. The Architect tells Neo that that code that Neo carries in him will be reinstated into the matrix and he will be able to choose 7 males and 13 females from inside the matrix to repopulate Zion. Alright, makes sense…but then why did Morpheus go off about a man being born in the matrix that freed the first of them and will return in another form to free all of them? DUH! I just answered my own statement. Morpheus must be referring to the ‘last Neo’ who freed the 20 people and they did not know the back story. Hey, what do you want from me; it’s Monday morning and I don’t wake up till Wednesday evening.

I had mentioned already how everything in the matrix has a green tint to it and that everything in the real world has a blue tint to it. I think that I will state my theory on it and see what you think. Every time we see the coding of the matrix it is green so it would be fairly save to assume that there would be a slight green tint to everything that is constructed from the coding of the matrix. Side note: Remember the little oriental guy who is guarding the Oracle? He is not made from the matrix and when Neo sees his coding it is yellow/white. Going along with this logic, if the real world is just another matrix and the base coding is blue then everything would have a blue tint to it. Although I don’t like the idea of a matrix in a matrix, it does make sense.

sith_killer_99
05-19-2003, 11:32 AM
OK, I admit, I have not seen Matrix Reloaded, yet!

With that said, some of my questions may be a bit off. From what I have read so far, it seems like GOJ is rally on to something with the whole Matrix within a Matrix idea.


Remember the little oriental guy who is guarding the Oracle? He is not made from the matrix and when Neo sees his coding it is yellow/white.

Wouldn't that imply that there must be another Matrix? If everything in the Matrix is green, then this guy clearly dosen't belong there. Yet he is made of code and must therefore be part of a Matrix.:crazed:

darthvyn
05-19-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
Great pick-up on the whole 'monster squad', guys! I completely overlooked this one. Well, we have the twins (ghosts), the two henchmen (silver bullets kill werewolves) watching the old vampire film and I have heard that in the video game it is insinuated that Persephone is a vampire or that Neo fights vampires or something. Can anyone confirm this?

about the monster squad, either way it's definitely what the oracle was getting at. i don't know what they were, so if most people agree they were werewolves, so be it. it's just a cool thing to add in there... but what of the other henchmen the merovingian had on contract? were they just humans... other programs? i don't think persephone was a vampire, however... nothing really led to that conclusion in the film. it would be unfortunate if she is one in the game...


Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
I am still racking my brain over the Keymaker. Is his real purpose to enforce the idea that everything is merely a means to an end? Hence, a key for every door (aka every choice leading to another choice that has already been decided or set into motion and predictable because of every choice that was made before it)? I did see it again over the weekend and noticed that in the car chase scene, the agents say that only the outcast (Keymaker) is important. So why are they referring to him as the 'Outcast'? He also knew that Neo was coming for him. How? You could say that he was part of the cycle with all of the Neos, but then he dies at the end of this cycle. Are we to believe that this cycle is truly different from the others? More questions than answers, I’m afraid.

they were referring to him as "the exile," same as the oracle said when an obsolete program is faced with deletion, they may choose (interesting use of the word... ;) ) exile to 'death.' sounds like very human programs to me... he says "we do only what we are meant to do..." once again going with the idea of predetermination. the merovingian's speech about causality i think is the key (no pun intended.) i think he knows more of what's going on than many of the other characters... our heroes stumbled into the restaurant because they were told to go there by the oracle, another sentient program, who they don't even know they can trust. she didn't tell them WHY they sought the keymaker, just to go get him. at the same time, it's all a game to the merovingian, so he doesn't really care what the outcome is, as long as he maintains his power and status.


Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
Stupid observation, but I have heard people question it. Why can no one remember the prior ‘Revolutions’? Well, the only people that would remember are those that are in the ‘desert of the real’ and all of them are going to be destroyed at the end of the cycle. The Architect tells Neo that that code that Neo carries in him will be reinstated into the matrix and he will be able to choose 7 males and 13 females from inside the matrix to repopulate Zion. Alright, makes sense…but then why did Morpheus go off about a man being born in the matrix that freed the first of them and will return in another form to free all of them? DUH! I just answered my own statement. Morpheus must be referring to the ‘last Neo’ who freed the 20 people and they did not know the back story. Hey, what do you want from me; it’s Monday morning and I don’t wake up till Wednesday evening.

maybe they do remember - maybe that's what deja vu is... neo keeps having dreams of what happens to trinity at the end, but maybe that was just what had happened in previous versions - if everyone is still in the energy pods (meaning, the matrix and 'real' world are both constructs) then everyone that was "freed" from the matrix is actually still in it, and therefore will be in the next 'reloaded' matrix... so, trinity will be in the next version of the matrix, and by that reasoning has been before... the oracle says neo has 'the sight' - he dreams about the room with the archictect and of what happens to trinity... how could he really see what's going to happen, unless it already has - 5 times before! and remember, all the neos in the architect's room on the monitors go to the same door our neo is going to - illusion of choice - go the the source, and reestablish the matrix, or go save trinity and... reestablish the matrix...


Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
I had mentioned already how everything in the matrix has a green tint to it and that everything in the real world has a blue tint to it. I think that I will state my theory on it and see what you think. Every time we see the coding of the matrix it is green so it would be fairly save to assume that there would be a slight green tint to everything that is constructed from the coding of the matrix. Side note: Remember the little oriental guy who is guarding the Oracle? He is not made from the matrix and when Neo sees his coding it is yellow/white. Going along with this logic, if the real world is just another matrix and the base coding is blue then everything would have a blue tint to it. Although I don’t like the idea of a matrix in a matrix, it does make sense.

well, in the first movie, the green tint was due to the major use of flourescent lights in the matrix - flourescents give off a green tint on film... it was a way to distiguish visually between the 'unnatural' world and the 'natural' world by using 'unnatural' light and 'natural' light. i'm sure scenes were augmented as to color balance to make the green more prevalent, even in scenes where they were in the matrix, and there weren't any flourescent bulbs around. otherwise, that's a lot of flourescents bulbs. :crazed:

funny, though, i always thought the 'real' world had more of a reddish tint to it, even in the second one.

i think possibly all sentient programs that aren't part of the actual matrix anymore have that gold tint... if we saw the oracle, or the merovingian, or persephone or binary through neo's eyes, i'd be willing to bet they would be gold as well...


i was just thinking about the zion matrix theory... the architect is a mathematical program, while the oracle is an intuitive program... she's studied human reaction and interaction, probably (if i'm correct about them...) with the assistance and studies of the merovingian and persephone. (see my last post again, if you forgot my theories on them...)

if zion is really another construct, then the rave/love scene is a perfect example of the baser human instincts that the oracle used to construct another matrix that the 1% would accept... and lends credence to the oracle/devil theory - the devil is temptation, feeding off the base human instincts: lust, anger, mistrust...

mrmiller
05-19-2003, 12:26 PM
The Keymaker is refered to the "Outcast" because he is a renegade program in the matrix. Also, the guy guarding the Oracle is also a renegade program, that's why he is not green but yellow. From what I got, the renegade programs are programs that were ment to be deleted but refused and exist in the matrix yet are not a part of the matrix. I guess they can be seen as a hack or virus, and not a program run by the system that is the Matrix, sort of like the program representations of the humans outside the matrix.... Crap I just went cross-eyed.

=MATT=

Patient Zero
05-19-2003, 01:13 PM
Numbers in the Matrix
I stumbled across this one while reading some of the scripts. In the first movie, the first room we see is 303 of the "Heart O' The City" hotel with Trinity and the last room is also number 303 when Neo gets shot and dies momentarily. Interesting! Also, Neo’s apartment number is 101 in the first movie and in the second it is also the level number that the snotty French guy is on. Any ideas? Will we see 202s in the next film?

Neo meets Morpheus in room 1313 of the Lafayette hotel. It is the only other number that I could find in the script.

Also, when the Keymaker talks about the time that they have to bypass the security system at the end of the movie, he says it is three hundred and fourteen seconds=314. 3.14 is pie. This must be alluding to something. Does everybody just love pie that much?


Question: I was looking at the confirmed cast for Revolutions and they say that Niobi is returning. She survived the 2nd film? I thought that the sentinels destroyed Niobi’s crew with the bomb that they threw. I guess that someone will find the ship and get them out of the matrix.

vulcantouch
05-19-2003, 01:32 PM
. . .i'm surprised no one's yet mentioned the obvious (to me) parallel of moebius' Incal (http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/2731612029.08.LZZZZZZZ.jpg), with neo echoing a decidedly-less-heroic john difool, aka "the drop of water that will never become one with the great ocean" :sur:

keith koth
05-19-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
I had mentioned already how everything in the matrix has a green tint to it and that everything in the real world has a blue tint to it. I think that I will state my theory on it and see what you think.

Has anyone seen or own Matrix Revisited? I recall them going into some detail (the extent of which I can not remember) about the reasoning behind the green tint/blue tint. I think I may have to go rent it and watch it again. If you haven't seen Matrix Revisited I highly recommend it.

The 'Xir
05-19-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Eternal Padawan
Here's a major spoiler: After the credits roll on the third film, it's going to cut back to a psyche ward and the camera dollies up to a window into a rubber room, where we see Mr. Anderson in a strait jacket screaming "I'm the one! I'm the ONE!"

So the whole thing was in his head. SUCKERS! :evil:

Close EP, but what I think we're all gonna come to find out is that the movie will end with Neo just waking up from a dream into the "real world"! We'll be left with the feeling asking ourselves is it really the real world or is it the matrix and Neo thinks it's all been a dream and continues on with his unknowing imprisoned life within the Matrix! This is a classic Philosophical/existential viewpoint within alot of classical writting! The metaphor always given in association with these type of stories is If you are standing in front of a mirror, with a mirror behind you, looking staright into it, is there an end to the image/reflection? Well, of course the answer is No there isn't an end, but because of our limited sight/comprehension we can only see the reflection about 20+ times. This is what we will be left with at the end to ask? Does the Matrix even exist, or if we see that it does, than is there an end to it? Neo waking up from a dream will think so(unless they plan on doing another trilogy which this scenario allows for), but we'll still have the questions!

sidenote-- The first responsiblity or representation of the Keymaker is our ability to make a choice! That's why it exists outside the matrix or in a "dead" zone(can't remember what they referred to it as). When you are standing in the hall you haven't made a choice yet. That's why If I remember correctly the doors face each other all the way down the hall. Kinda like when the Architect presents Neo with the choice of saving the world or Trinity, there were two doors or portals to go through! Once the choice is made(or predestined according to the Architect) the Keymaker is just the tool to open the door.
Also why, it's interesting that the Oracle tells Neo to find and protect the Keymaker! If she is indeed the personification of the devil, it does make sense that she would want you to protect choice (unlike the architect who gives you the idea of choice but deems it as predestined), so you could be manipulated later(like Eve in the Garden of Eden with the snake and forbidden fruit, it was a choice). :confused: :confused: :confused:
Did someone mention pie? HHhhmmm pie....my head hurts! ;)

Patient Zero
05-19-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by The 'Xir
sidenote-- The first responsiblity or representation of the Keymaker is our ability to make a choice! That's why it exists outside the matrix or in a "dead" zone(can't remember what they referred to it as). When you are standing in the hall you haven't made a choice yet.

Also why, it's interesting that the Oracle tells Neo to find and protect the Keymaker! If she is indeed the personification of the devil, it does make sense that she would want you to protect choice (unlike the architect who gives you the idea of choice but deems it as predestined), so you could be manipulated later(like Eve in the Garden of Eden with the snake and forbidden fruit, it was a choice). :confused: :confused: :confused:
Did someone mention pie? HHhhmmm pie....my head hurts! ;)


Bingo!:D Thanks, I think that is exactly it!

Patient Zero
05-19-2003, 04:15 PM
The more that I think of the ‘Neo as part machine, part human’ idea the more that I like it. Along with everything else that I have said about the idea consider this: The Matrix is based on the classic struggle of man vs. machine (or even man vs. self if you view the machines as an extension of self), but what if the conclusion of this battle is not the victory of one side over the other, but instead the merging of the two to create something greater then its parts. I am reminded of Councilor Hammon’s speech about the machines that Zion uses in order to make it inhabitable for humans.

Neo is physically human, but almost all of his learned behavior, reasoning, habits, emotional tendencies, etc. have developed, and possibly been manipulated, through the medium of a computer program to the extent that, as the Architect stated, the process of becoming the One has altered his consciousness even though Neo’s corporeal form is “irrevocably human”. Yes, Neo is human, but how do you define, as a physical form, the consciousness of a being? Just think about “BaneSmith”. We are given no indication what so ever that his consciousness is not a machine/program and yet he has taken human form in the real world. Are not the electrical processes in the human brain seemingly similar to that of the electrical processes of a computer? With the information that the movie reveals to us it is quite easy to tell the difference between the physical forms of humans and computers, but when it comes to the consciousness the dividing lines begin to blur.

Neo, and possibly “BaneSmith”, influenced computers (the squidies) in the real world. Could this be because his consciousness is partially computer based/influenced to begin with? Maybe it wasn’t an EMP, but something else. Of course, if either of them starts flying in the real world then the idea would be invalid, but nothing like that has occurred yet.

So the idea is that the Architect, because of a desire to evolve as all systems do, decided to use the ‘glitch’ in his perfect system to either: A. Create a more perfect matrix system, by using the ‘Neo glitch’ to weed out those that would harm his system and then destroy all of them. B. Enhance his own chances at evolution by using the ‘Neo glitch’ as a test subject to take over the bodies of humans and in term to bring about victory for the machines. Which Agent Smith might have unexpectedly achieved by taking over Bane’s body. C. All men with power want more power! D. Errr…I did have another one, but I can’t remember.

But wouldn’t it be damn cool if that same ‘glitch’ that the Architect manipulated for his own means is what eventually destroyed him….or in better terms, changed the matrix and the conquest intention of machines into something else. Here would be the fusion of man and machine: Neo. But how would this bring these two polarities into accord with all other entities? What if Neo’s desire for one specific person, the desire of a consciousness that is part machine and part human, caused him to choose the human emotion of love above all else; a machine that desires to be a human in order to feel and receive that love. The Architect said that the difference between Neo and his predecessors was that Neo was the only one to feel compassion or love in a very specific sense. If this idea were true then wouldn’t Neo be the One that brings humans and machines together? Just like Councilor Hammon seemed to attempt to make Neo realize as a possible solution to the conflict: coexistence. Could Neo gain the power to overthrow the Architect and bring balance to the force….errr…struggle between man and machine?

I have seen bits and pieces of the Anamatrix shorts and don’t the machines rebel because of a lack of compassion that the humans have for them? Wouldn’t it then be compassion that would bring the two together again?

I think it’s a cool idea, but then again it’s still Monday and I haven’t woken up yet!:dead:

James Boba Fettfield
05-19-2003, 04:50 PM
B166ER was the first robot to rise up against his masters, due to the lack of respect (compassion). After his trial there's the big "Million Machine March" which leads to the riots, where lots of machines are terminated. After this, the robots are banned from human society. So the banished robots start their own nation in the Middle East (cradle of human civilization) called 01. So the robots prosper here, and the stuff they create finds its way into human society, and these robots design better AI. So the human economy fails, while the robot economy soars. So man does what it does best, flexes some military muscles to blockade the machine empire instead of working with them. The machines want to join the UN and work with man, but man denies them this. That's how the first part of the 2nd renaissance ends.

In the 2nd part of the show, man and machine are at war. The weapons of man do no good against the machines, so the machines start taking over human ruled land with ease. This is when man formulates the idea to blacken the sky. Machines go on to win, and the machines begin to study human bodies for their energy sources. The matrix is born, and the machines tells the human race to "hand over their flesh, a new world awaits you" That's about where the second part ends. So that's the story in a nutshell of how the machines took over the world of man.

Draw what you will from that.

Anakin2121
05-19-2003, 07:25 PM
1)- I don't know WHY the "old style" Marovingian thugs were hard to kill, but there were "werewolf" style thugs in the excellent game. My guess is that a tiny bit of animal-based code was accidentally mixed with the human's. Anyway, you rip a piece of a wood out of the floor in the game, a stake, really. The stake was part of the building (which had "weird architecture") and the thugs were written along with the building, and as such, jamming the stake into them disrupts their code. It's cool doing it in the game, you almost feel like Buffy. :p


2)- The sentinel-launched bomb destroyed Soren's ship, and Soren and his men were killed in the Matrix -- they all fell dead inside the control room in the power plant. The Logos, the smallest and fastest ship in the fleet, was not hit by any bombs. This is the ship Niobe and Ghost were from. They do get pursued by Sentinels, however, and have to take their hovercraft down a deep, uncharted pit before using the EMP to destroy the Sentinels -- stranding themselves in the process. This bit was from the end of the game. :)

darthvyn
05-19-2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
Numbers in the Matrix
I stumbled across this one while reading some of the scripts. In the first movie, the first room we see is 303 of the "Heart O' The City" hotel with Trinity and the last room is also number 303 when Neo gets shot and dies momentarily. Interesting! Also, Neo’s apartment number is 101 in the first movie and in the second it is also the level number that the snotty French guy is on. Any ideas? Will we see 202s in the next film?

Neo meets Morpheus in room 1313 of the Lafayette hotel. It is the only other number that I could find in the script.

Also, when the Keymaker talks about the time that they have to bypass the security system at the end of the movie, he says it is three hundred and fourteen seconds=314. 3.14 is pie. This must be alluding to something. Does everybody just love pie that much?


Question: I was looking at the confirmed cast for Revolutions and they say that Niobi is returning. She survived the 2nd film? I thought that the sentinels destroyed Niobi’s crew with the bomb that they threw. I guess that someone will find the ship and get them out of the matrix.

i'm pretty sure neo ended up in the exact same room in the exact same hotel as trinity was in the opening scene.

the pi reference is pretty cool... it seems the recurrance of numbers is probably due to the fact that math is a defining factor in the matrix.


Originally posted by The 'Xir
sidenote-- The first responsiblity or representation of the Keymaker is our ability to make a choice! That's why it exists outside the matrix or in a "dead" zone(can't remember what they referred to it as). When you are standing in the hall you haven't made a choice yet. That's why If I remember correctly the doors face each other all the way down the hall. Kinda like when the Architect presents Neo with the choice of saving the world or Trinity, there were two doors or portals to go through! Once the choice is made(or predestined according to the Architect) the Keymaker is just the tool to open the door.
Also why, it's interesting that the Oracle tells Neo to find and protect the Keymaker! If she is indeed the personification of the devil, it does make sense that she would want you to protect choice (unlike the architect who gives you the idea of choice but deems it as predestined), so you could be manipulated later(like Eve in the Garden of Eden with the snake and forbidden fruit, it was a choice). :confused: :confused: :confused:
Did someone mention pie? HHhhmmm pie....my head hurts! ;)

the hallway of doors was just referred to as the programmers back doors.

the way i see it, they wanted to give neo the illusion of choice, but meanwhile both choices led to the same outcome - this is why i point out that all the "other" neos moved toward the same door as "our" neo did - meaning they all made the same choice, but still the matrix goes on...

Patient Zero
05-20-2003, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by darthvyn
the hallway of doors was just referred to as the programmers back doors.

the way i see it, they wanted to give neo the illusion of choice, but meanwhile both choices led to the same outcome - this is why i point out that all the "other" neos moved toward the same door as "our" neo did - meaning they all made the same choice, but still the matrix goes on...

Well, as far as all of the Neos on the screens around the room, I think that they were all the possible reactions or choices that the current Neo and the prior 5 could have made in the current situation. If you noticed when the Architect mentioned that there had been 5 Neos before the current one, some of the choice representations, screen Neos, said "Who were the three before me / I'm not the second / Your lieing, I'm the only one". This is why I believe that it is reactions to the current situation based on all of them and not just the current Neo. Also, at different choices, the camera went into one of the many Neo screens as if to show what possible reaction or choice was chosen by the current Neo.

As far as all of the Neos final decision, they all went to save Trinity, because even though they are all upgrades of the same program, they are all still “irrevocably human” and the strongest human emotions tend to be considered those of very specified love and/or hate.

So….when we first go into the Architect’s room, we are shown an image of what seems to be thousands of stars. Any ideas? And let me tell you, I have to get one of those Architect button pens!

icatch9
05-20-2003, 10:12 AM
Splat! I think my head just exploded. This thread is deep and I can only read so much at one time.

My thoughts on God and the Devil.

I think that the Orical is "the Devil" for several reasons. She gives Neo all the info he needs to find the architecht and thus destroy the matrix. Thus, she is the destroyer of what was created. Thus, The Devil. Plus, she's feeding crows. Crows for heavans sakes, agents of evil crows are.

The Arcitecht is "God" the creater of life/the matrix. Who could not create the matrix without the orical. Thus, God couldn't exist without the Devil. In this story, we see the orical as a nice homely old woman who wants to do nothing but help. We see God as a powerful proper white male who wants to do nothing but control. A real mind blowing experience. But what we have to see is what the true purposes of the orical and the architect are. One wants to destroy and one wants to maintain. Who's good and who's bad?

A comment on Agent Smith. If you saw the preview for Revolutions you know that the voice over is mainly about Neo fighting Smith. She says if you do not destroy him tonight all is lost. I belive Smith is a virus that is thretening both the real world and the matrix. If you consider he can multiply himself in a matter of moments, very similar to a virus. A virus is harful to a computer system as is Smith to the matrix. The matrix needs people to operate (BTU's). If Smith takes over all the bodies of humans, than no more BTU's. Thus no more Matrix. This is a good thing right? Wrong, for some reason that cannot be good.

This is one wild rid and I cannot wait until the end. I think the W bros have created an amazing saga. One more similar to old sagas, not newer one that we are used to. The whole Alice in Wounderland thing at the begining of the first movie has realy stuck in my head the whole time. I think that this saga will end similar to the way Alice ends. Basically she gets out of wounderland and goes back to her normal life. Now you have to ask yourself, if this happens will it put a bad taste in your mouth or will it totaly blow you mind?

aceguide
05-20-2003, 10:48 AM
Smith as a virus is just what I was thinking in the movie.

Smith also is presenting and interesting twist. As he "spreads" (multiplying himself throughout the Matrix) he is taking over minds in the "real" world (if that is actually the case). I also found it interesting that Smith chose to plant himslef in the "real" world as well.

So, not only does he present himself as a virus, it would also seem that his ultimate goal would be assimilating all humans to himself. Did that make sense?

Patient Zero
05-20-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by icatch9
My thoughts on God and the Devil.

I think that the Orical is "the Devil" for several reasons. She gives Neo all the info he needs to find the architecht and thus destroy the matrix. Thus, she is the destroyer of what was created. Thus, The Devil. Plus, she's feeding crows. Crows for heavans sakes, agents of evil crows are.

The Arcitecht is "God" the creater of life/the matrix. Who could not create the matrix without the orical. Thus, God couldn't exist without the Devil. In this story, we see the orical as a nice homely old woman who wants to do nothing but help. We see God as a powerful proper white male who wants to do nothing but control. A real mind blowing experience. But what we have to see is what the true purposes of the orical and the architect are. One wants to destroy and one wants to maintain. Who's good and who's bad?

The idea of God and the Devil not being able to exist without one another is a good catch, icatch. This goes along with the movie's heavily infulenced eastern philosophies and the concept of yin and yang. Here we have two things that could not exist without the other because they embody everything that the other is not. One theory is that this is how everything (existance, the universe, etc.) began. When everything in 'being' is One then there is nothing else to describe or define it by as far as the human mind comes to know things; through one things relationship to something else. Hence the One of everything becomes two in order to understand itself in relationship to itself.

One is the only real number, but in order for one to 'exist' it must have something to gauge itself by and thus One becomes two which gives birth to existence or a perceivable relative system. This, in turn, causes One to 'exist' in relationship to itself and become definable to itself through devision. This, of course, causes One to lose its purity and all encompasingness, but it is the only way that existance can be created, through the relations of division. In other words, One 'exists' outside of existance because there is nothing that is not One; it does not exist in the way which we perceive things as existing because it has nothing in relationship to itself in its pure form of everything as One.

Point being, yin and yang is actually one system that can only become aware of its own existence by dividing itself into two: yin and yang. Of course this happens countless times to result in the Existence that we are familiar with. But the idea is that both parts are equally important because one cannot come into existence without the other. Thus the God figure and the Devil figure are equally important and have no reason or purpose to exist without each other. It doesn't mean that the Architect may not try to destroy (“All men with power want more power”) the Oracle, but in doing so he would cause his own existence to lose purpose as far as this Taoist theory is concerned.

If this reasoning interests you read a book called Unified Reality Theory. But fair warning, the book it excedingly technical and it would be benificial to have a decent grasp of quantium physics and String-theory or M-theory.


Originally posted by icatch9
A comment on Agent Smith. If you saw the preview for Revolutions you know that the voice over is mainly about Neo fighting Smith. She says if you do not destroy him tonight all is lost. I belive Smith is a virus that is thretening both the real world and the matrix. If you consider he can multiply himself in a matter of moments, very similar to a virus. A virus is harful to a computer system as is Smith to the matrix. The matrix needs people to operate (BTU's). If Smith takes over all the bodies of humans, than no more BTU's. Thus no more Matrix. This is a good thing right? Wrong, for some reason that cannot be good. [

I also got the impression from the trailer that it would be more of a conflict with Neo/Smith then Neo/Architect(matrix). I read somewhere that as Reloaded was more about hope, Revolutions would be more about destruction. I do hope that the series ends at least some way in Neo's favor.


I found an interesting review at http://blogs.salon.com/0001797/2003/05/19.html#a532 if anyone is interested.

Patient Zero
05-20-2003, 01:36 PM
Interesting discussion of the colour themes: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Theater/9175/neo/matrixcolors.html

and religious/number themes: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Theater/9175/neo/matrixnames.html

Patient Zero
05-20-2003, 05:05 PM
Coolness. I just found a way to access secret pages that Matrix.com. Check it out here: http://keanuweb.com/credits/movie.matrix.secrets.html


Edit: I just checked it out and nothing really about the story line, but it's always cool to find some secret room. ;)

darthvyn
05-20-2003, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by blogs.salon.com
As you have no doubt guessed, I don’t share the enthusiasm that some have for the theory that Zion is actually another matrix within the matrix. Granted, this would explain some of the issues explored above (as well as the zapping of the sentinels at the end), but it would do so in such a manner that renders certain aspects of the film not only puzzling but unnecessary. One could ask, for example, why – if Zion is merely another matrix –does Agent Smith only replace Bane’s psyche rather than his (presumably, under this theory) residual body image? More importantly, why would the machines need to the stage the whole Oracle-prophecy rigmarole? It would be one thing to send the “free” humans on a wild goose chase, but why – if Zion is actually a new and improved matrix that is as yet wholly perfect in its functioning – is the One needed to reload the matrix? Why would the matrix need to be reloaded if it is working as planned (indeed, better than any within the matrix have dared imagine)? Hence the “dual-matrix” theory, although attractive to some as a means of explaining the destruction/refounding of Zion, actually introduces insuperable difficulties when it comes to explaining the overriding necessity of the movie – the need to reload the matrix. Think of the extraordinary lengths that the extra-matrix programs (the Architect and the Oracle) go in order to promote Neo’s reloading of the matrix despite the degree to which it runs counter to the programming of the matrix itself… and then ask how the dual matrix accounts for this behavior. It doesn’t.

this matrix isn't a "more perfect" version, it is a stop-gap solution for the 1% that don't accept the code of the original... the blindness of the machines in the attempt at perfection (100% acceptance) has led them to this solution. 1% would be an acceptable loss for most beings, not for machines striving for perfection.

neo's decompiling in the source will give the machines that much more information on human nature and thought, and thus let the architect make more advances in the programming of the original matrix, to get closer to 100% acceptance. that is why the prophecy schpeel is necessary. destroying zion, erasing all memory, and reloading the matrix is the only way they can test whether this version will give them the 100% acceptance they want. the small amount of 'real world' dwellers will give them the catalyst for any non-acceptance of the matrix - if the program is perfect, no one will listen to the 'real world' dwellers, thus 100% acceptance. also, neo's ballooning knowledge of his own powers in the matrix and in the 'real world' would corrupt all that the machines are working for - therefore, it is imperative that neo be the one to decompile in the source and reload the matrix.

the constant hunting by the sentinels and such in the 'real world' is to keep the humans busy, so as not to give them the time to think about the world around them too hard.

the machine's utter weakness is their strive for perfection. but something about the human mind, or perhaps the soul, constantly keeps them going back to the drawing board.

the reason they want perfection out of ONE matrix, is that TWO take up (conceivably) twice as much energy. only one matrix means more power for the machines.

i'm still working on the whole banesmith thing...

Patient Zero
05-21-2003, 12:28 PM
So does anyone have any ideas about how Agent Smith got into the hallway to the Architect at the end of the film? I can only assume that Smith wanted to assimilate the Architect and take over everything.

The Overlord Returns
05-21-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
So does anyone have any ideas about how Agent Smith got into the hallway to the Architect at the end of the film? I can only assume that Smith wanted to assimilate the Architect and take over everything.

No...I have no clue how he got in there...as there was no explanation for it whatsoever. However, lack of explanation seems to be a recurring theme in Matrix 2............

mrmiller
05-22-2003, 12:28 PM
I think he is a rouge program now like the Keymaker and the Oracle's bodyguard, so he is free to move outside the matrix program. How, I'm not sure.

=MATT=