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View Full Version : Psychological Battles-Luke Vs. Vader



Arrogant Arse
05-22-2003, 03:38 PM
I was watching Return of the Jedi yesterday, and was rather struck by the scene where Luke is presented to Vader near the landing platform. In that, Luke really seems to put psycological pressure on Vader, and is winning the battle. What he says about his father, hoe he feels good in him, and says he couldn't be turned, affects Vader tremendoulsy. Vader responds by (1)denying it, "there is conflict," (2) changing the subject "I see you have constructed a new lightsaber," (3) giving up, "there is no hope for me," and (4) changing the subject "the emperor is your master now." and then at the end of the scene, he kind of sighs and looks out the window contemplating.

I think Luke clearly had the upper hand in that "battle" and that was the most intriguing "battle" of the film.

Any thoughts

Dar Basra
05-22-2003, 04:12 PM
I liked that scene a great deal. It made you think about what's been going through Darth's head ever since the Bespin duel in ESB, and Darth's double take when the Falcon jumped to light speed taking his son away. I though it was a very good continuation of those earlier Bespin glimpses into his soul. Clearly from the look of ... regret? frustration? ... that Darth gave when the Falcon escaped, you could tell that some of Darth's motivation in Bespin was to have his son at his side, not purely to turn him to the dark side for evil purposes. And on the Endor moon, that became even more clear - Darth was showing that he was weary of being alone ... that he wanted to connect with the only person that might still have a reason or desire to connect with him ... yet he was struggling, knowing that he was trapped with the Emporer, and that now his son was trapped. Between Prowse's body language, and Jones' voice, Darth Vader came alive on Bespin and Endor, and in my opinion perfectly heralded the inevitable, and necessary, reversion to humanity in the throne room duel.

JediTricks
05-22-2003, 11:50 PM
I think Luke had brought some power to bear upon Vader's soul there, but Vader was able to turn it against him later during their battle pretty strongly, so ultimately I'd say that Vader really had the upper hand and chose to let in some of what Luke was saying.

stillakid
05-23-2003, 12:12 AM
I like your summary Arrogant Arse. It all culminated in what is probably my favorite shot sequence in the saga when we see a close up of Vader's mask as Luke is getting the snot kicked out of him. Somehow, Prowse (from behind the mask) and Alan Hume (Director of Photography) managed to actually portray genuine emotion in a static object. I have to say that I was really impressed then with that technical and artistic achievement which actually showed us the angst that Vader was going through, and I'm just as impressed even today.

bobafrett
05-23-2003, 12:47 AM
I loved that scene where Luke is presented to Vader and they have the psycological confrontation. It is very strong and starts what I feel is the turning point that eventually turns Vader back to the good side. Being a Father, as many of you are, that stands out to me as one of the strongest scenes in the trilogy.

BTW, I cried like a baby when Luke had the "funeral" burning of his fathers remains.

Tonysmo
05-25-2003, 02:02 AM
I can remember either Cracked or Mad magazine did one of their skits on that scene.. depicting Luke holding a Happy Fathers Day card behind his back.. too funny...

and yes, a GREAT scene from the movie.. you knew it took a hit at Vader. I thought so anyway.

and while watching ROTJ in the theater, some girl started wailing when they burned him on the pyre at the end... I couldve strangled her...

I'm ok...






seriously...

Kidhuman
05-25-2003, 08:02 AM
Yes that was a great scene. As Stillakid pointed out, you could almost see the emotion on Vaders face. Yes JT, Vader had the upper hand in the throne room with the head games, but Luke controlled himself after the outburst and really got to Anakin when he was being electrocuted. So Luke eventually won the mind manipulation aspect of it.

scruffziller
05-25-2003, 11:40 AM
I have been told that the last of the trials that a Jedi must do is face the darkside and conquer its temptation.

But yes, that scene has to be one of the best out of the entire triliogy. Why can't Lucas capture that magic again!!!!!!!!!

Bel-Cam Jos
05-26-2003, 09:32 AM
Anader/Vadikin probably turned to the Dark Side to avenge either Shmi's/Padme's/other person's death (just my opinion), which in the mind of a 10-year old (where Anakin's maturity seems to have been stunted) would be pretty noble and honorable. I believe that Vader in that scene realized that there were other ways to be honorable besides strength, power, or angry emotions. Anakin, for all his abilities, seems to be a follower, looking for strong role models (i.e. Palpatine, Qui-Gon) who felt that ends justify the means. Luke doesn't feel that way, and this creates doubt in Vader as to if he made the right choice.

Look and Vader's threats: Now we captured you, aha (Uh, Luke let them capture him)!
Well, I'm gonna cut you with your own weapon (Luke isn't scared).
Okay, then the most evil man in the galaxy will deal with you (Luke is fine with that).
You'll end up an evil, corrupted Sith Lord like me (Luke thinks there's still a "good" Anakin inside Vader).
Um, then, uh, take him away! (Luke could care less).

Score: Vader 1 (Bespin), Luke 1 (Endor), with the rubber match scheduled for the Death Star, winner-take-all!

JediTricks
05-27-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by kidhuman
Yes JT, Vader had the upper hand in the throne room with the head games, but Luke controlled himself after the outburst and really got to Anakin when he was being electrocuted. "Outburst"?!? You make it sound like Luke threw a tantrum and then sulked in the corner - Luke was totally being bashed around emotionally by both Vader and the Emp, and when Vader pushed the "sister" button, Luke snapped and attacked his father with such hatred, anger, and rage that he took the old man's hand clear off - that's more than a outburst. It's only through the Emperor's sick goading that causes Luke to stop and recognize the shock of what he's done and how his path is now so similar to his father's.

Luke gives in to the hatred and rage, Luke slips towards the dark side to defeat Vader and it takes a lot to pull him back from the brink.

mini-rock
05-28-2003, 02:15 AM
While I really do like the psychological battles of ROTJ you really have to look at why they were psychlogical battles in the first place. The main reason is b/c Vader and Luke couldn't fight worth a ****. Sure for years it was a great fight, but when I finally saw how Jedi and Sith really fight in EPS 1&2 it was clear why Vader had to play head games. Which is still cool I think, watching Vader break Luke down, but when they can't fight in the first place what else are they supposed to do?

stillakid
05-28-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by mini-rock
While I really do like the psychological battles of ROTJ you really have to look at why they were psychlogical battles in the first place. The main reason is b/c Vader and Luke couldn't fight worth a ****. Sure for years it was a great fight, but when I finally saw how Jedi and Sith really fight in EPS 1&2 it was clear why Vader had to play head games. Which is still cool I think, watching Vader break Luke down, but when they can't fight in the first place what else are they supposed to do?

Boy, talk about missing the point. No wonder you don't like these films at all. You don't understand them. Have you even seen them? Vader/Anakin has progressed beyond having to fight like a frog on a hotplate (ala Yoda), just as Palpatine has. Given time, Vader too would most likely dispense with the weapons entirely.

But that too is entirely beside the point. The plot in the OT wasn't about flashy fighting. The goal was to seduce Luke to the darkside. This involves the use of subtlety, a concept that the Prequels aren't too familiar with. To seduce someone means coercing them with psychologically twisted reasoning. Mixing truth with a version of the truth is a key element. The Prequels do have a modicum of that (www.dictionary.com ... because I know you'll need it) in two instances: when Palpatine strokes Anakin's ego and when Obi Wan is being "interrogated" by Dooku.

Ultimately, MiniRock, (and I know you won't listen to me because you don't like what I have to say), I don't care what you like or don't. But I will argue your reasoning, particularly when it's faulty and just outright incorrect at it's foundation.


--- I just had an epiphany! You're not looking for a good movie (not that I believe you understand what that is). You're looking for a video game, which would explain why the thin plot and "gaming" like sequences in the Prequels appeal to you more. Ahhhh. I'm finally starting to understand you now. I do feel better. If you would have just said that in the first place, we could have dispensed with the animosity altogether. :)

mini-rock
05-28-2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by mini-rock
While I really do like the psychological battles of ROTJ you really have to look at why they were psychlogical battles in the first place. The main reason is b/c Vader and Luke couldn't fight worth a ****. Sure for years it was a great fight, but when I finally saw how Jedi and Sith really fight in EPS 1&2 it was clear why Vader had to play head games. Which is still cool I think, watching Vader break Luke down, but when they can't fight in the first place what else are they supposed to do?

Last night I watched the (horrible) duel at the end of ROTJ since I hadn't seen it in a while. I have learned some sword fighting in the past from my sister's husband who is heavily into martial arts, and I have to wonder who in the hell was the fight instructor for the OT films. They weren't duels, they were more like someone with absolutely no coordination dancing with a stick. In the prequels it fluid and graceful, but the duels with Vader are just horrid. Luke coming out swinging like a little kid is just gawd awful, even the little younglings in AOTC coudla whooped his punk ***. Anyway, who was the fight coordinator for those films?

The Overlord Returns
05-28-2003, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock
Last night I watched the (horrible) duel at the end of ROTJ since I hadn't seen it in a while. I have learned some sword fighting in the past from my sister's husband who is heavily into martial arts, and I have to wonder who in the hell was the fight instructor for the OT films. They weren't duels, they were more like someone with absolutely no coordination dancing with a stick. In the prequels it fluid and graceful, but the duels with Vader are just horrid. Luke coming out swinging like a little kid is just gawd awful, even the little younglings in AOTC coudla whooped his punk ***. Anyway, who was the fight coordinator for those films?

You do realize that Luke had been training in the force for what...maybe a year? He could never be expected to teach himself the kind of advanced styles we've seen from heavily trained Jedi like Jinn, Windu, or Obi wan.

Vader is also no longer at the level of ninja stealth demon that anakin et al were in ep2. First, he's wearing about 200 pounds of armor, and he breathes on a bloody respirator. Second, he's developed his force abilities to such a degree that the SAber is nearly useless to him.

mini-rock
05-28-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
You do realize that Luke had been training in the force for what...maybe a year? He could never be expected to teach himself the kind of advanced styles we've seen from heavily trained Jedi like Jinn, Windu, or Obi wan.

Yeah, I do, and I never expected Luke to be able to pull off what Obi, Mace or Dooku could do, but even with what I learned in a few short weeks it is clear that no real training went into preparing Mark or Prowse on proper sword techniques. It was kinda like someone just threw them some sticks and said "ok, go at it for a bit." If you look at it from the movie POV you can see how much Luke did progress just in ESB. At the beggining of the film in the Wampa cave he had a hard time force pulling his saber, but at the end in the duel with Vader he force pulled his saber rather quickly, and with little effort. Also when he leaped out of the carbon freeze chamber at warp speed was another sign how far he had progressed. But his saber skills were crap. No technique, and no form.


Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Vader is also no longer at the level of ninja stealth demon that anakin et al were in ep2. First, he's wearing about 200 pounds of armor, and he breathes on a bloody respirator. Second, he's developed his force abilities to such a degree that the SAber is nearly useless to him.

I agree with the first part, that Vader's suit hindered his physical abilities, and have also used that to exlain to other people why Vader doesn't fight so well. The second part I'm not sure about b/c if he had develoed his force skills to such a degree that he no longer needed a saber like Palpy, then why didn't he use his power against Luke before he got his hand chopped? I know the head games aren't his super force ability.

Like I said ultimately I do not have a problem with it. It's rather fun watching Vader talk smack to Luke breaking him down, but really that was all he could do. :)

The Overlord Returns
05-28-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock



I agree with the first part, that Vader's suit hindered his physical abilities, and have also used that to exlain to other people why Vader doesn't fight so well. The second part I'm not sure about b/c if he had develoed his force skills to such a degree that he no longer needed a saber like Palpy, then why didn't he use his power against Luke before he got his hand chopped? I know the head games aren't his super force ability.



Well, I would say that Lukes rage had taken over. The ferocity and power was too much for an already ailing Vader, who had no real desire to match his son in that way. Vader was conflicted, and in the end, essentially, let Luke win.

mini-rock
05-28-2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Well, I would say that Lukes rage had taken over. The ferocity and power was too much for an already ailing Vader, who had no real desire to match his son in that way. Vader was conflicted, and in the end, essentially, let Luke win.

I don't fully agree, but I understand your POV and see where you're coming from.:)

stillakid
05-28-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Well, I would say that Lukes rage had taken over. The ferocity and power was too much for an already ailing Vader, who had no real desire to match his son in that way. Vader was conflicted, and in the end, essentially, let Luke win.

How on God's green Earth could someone not agree with that? :eek: What, praytell, could be the alternate motivation for Vader at that point? Are there different versions of these movies out there? :confused:

Please, Overlord, or anyone, please ask this question of MiniRock as he has chosen to ignore me, even though plenty of others say the exact same things that I do. :rolleyes: Thanks! :)

Arrogant Arse
05-30-2003, 11:23 PM
Stilla, I think I agree with you. Vader had developed very strong powers other than Sword fighting. (choking Admirals Motti and Ozzel) He could have done that to Luke IN A HEARTBEAT!! He didn't want to though, Does anyone remember the line in ESB where the Emperor says to get rid of Luke and Vader says that he could be a "powerfull ally." Vader didn't want to "squash him like a bug," He wanted to turn him, and connect with his son. (He was at Corucsant Hallmark and saw some cool Fathers' Day cards, and he thought he'd like to get one);) Vader thought he could turn Luke, but in the end he realised that he would have to turn.

Yes it rambles. It is the way I post.

mini-rock
06-01-2003, 11:27 PM
If Vader's powers had developed beyond the need for a lightsaber then why use one at all? "This weapon is your life." Yeah, Vader is a powerful MF, but his saber skills sucked ***. It's ok to admit that b/c he has stronger skills, but to say he didn't NEED a saber (IMO) is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard.:)

The Overlord Returns
06-02-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by mini-rock
If Vader's powers had developed beyond the need for a lightsaber then why use one at all? "This weapon is your life." Yeah, Vader is a powerful MF, but his saber skills sucked ***. It's ok to admit that b/c he has stronger skills, but to say he didn't NEED a saber (IMO) is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard.:)

The entire Duel in ESB shows that Vader didn't need a saber. However, it was the traditional weapon used, and it also afforded him time and situation to tempt Luke.....'nuff said.

mini-rock
06-02-2003, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
The entire Duel in ESB shows that Vader didn't need a saber. However, it was the traditional weapon used, and it also afforded him time and situation to tempt Luke.....'nuff said.

He didn't need one? That wasn't Vader I saw trying to hack Luke in two on Bespin? :confused: Vader tried to take Lukes head of a couple times, so he wasn't just trying to "tempt" Luke. Vader looked more like he was chopping wood rather than using an "elegant weapom" as he was pushing Luke back when the got onto the ramp. If Vader hadn't of had it Luke would have chopped him in two before he had the chance to say "I'am your fffffff..ugh" so it looked like he did need his saber.

You OT defender guy's can try to rationalize it all you want, but honestly whether or not Vader needed his saber doesn't really matter. The fact is his saber skills sucked.

Luke's sabers skills aren't much better. Luke was so full of rage that he came out swinging like a pansy? Grown men do that? Is that what you guy's do? I ask b/c I have never been so angry or full of rage that I came out swinging like I should be swimming instead. I've been boxing & kickboxing for years, and have never seen anyone do that. So, maybe someone can answer that for me.

The Overlord Returns
06-02-2003, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock
He didn't need one? That wasn't Vader I saw trying to hack Luke in two on Bespin? :confused: Vader tried to take Lukes head of a couple times, so he wasn't just trying to "tempt" Luke. Vader looked more like he was chopping wood rather than using an "elegant weapom" as he was pushing Luke back when the got onto the ramp. If Vader hadn't of had it Luke would have chopped him in two before he had the chance to say "I'am your fffffff..ugh" so it looked like he did need his saber.

You OT defender guy's can try to rationalize it all you want, but honestly whether or not Vader needed his saber doesn't really matter. The fact is his saber skills sucked.

Luke's sabers skills aren't much better. Luke was so full of rage that he came out swinging like a pansy? Grown men do that? Is that what you guy's do? I ask b/c I have never been so angry or full of rage that I came out swinging like I should be swimming instead. I've been boxing & kickboxing for years, and have never seen anyone do that. So, maybe someone can answer that for me.


I think you've missed the point of that Duel. Why would vader seriously try and kill the prize he's supposed to collect and bring to the Emperor? He's playing with luke during the ESB duel...he leads him around like a lil' puppy dog for god's sake......

I think you might need to go back and look at the duel in the context of what vader's intentions are......

mini-rock
06-02-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
I think you've missed the point of that Duel. Why would vader seriously try and kill the prize he's supposed to collect and bring to the Emperor? He's playing with luke during the ESB duel...he leads him around like a lil' puppy dog for god's sake......

I think you might need to go back and look at the duel in the context of what vader's intentions are......

JEEZ!! Dang dude, I didn't realize how rude my previous post was.:crazed: I still stick with what I said, just without the rudeness. TOR if I offended please accept my apologies.:)

Maybe you're right that I need to go back and watch it again, but I have seen the movie over 100 times in the last few years to know what Vader was trying to do. I know what Vader's intentions are, but it is also clear that for a short time Vader was giving all he had fighting Luke, and at one point almost took his head off. Just for S&G I'll watch it sometime today. For a goof.:)

The Overlord Returns
06-02-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock
JEEZ!! Dang dude, I didn't realize how rude my previous post was.:crazed: I still stick with what I said, just without the rudeness. TOR if I offended please accept my apologies.:)



I have no idea what you're talking about, dude.

stillakid
06-03-2003, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
I have no idea what you're talking about, dude.

Let me take a stab at it.

First, you are right in that MR doesn't seem to "get it." With as many viewings as he claims to have had, it seems odd that such "clear" story points (as Vader not trying to actually kill Luke) would escape him. Honestly, not to be rude or insulting at all, but he either isn't astute enough to understand the story behind the FX, or he is playing games here on the forums for some reason. The third possibility is that he truly sees a different point of view, however, frequently his own conclusions don't make a whole lot of sense...at least to me. Take the ESB duel for instance. Why Vader would want to kill Luke at all makes no sense within the context of the entire rest of the film, so why would anyone even entertain such notions is beyond me.

But then again, what the hell do I know.

Second, his apologist tone is meant to be an overly kind anticedent to my own "not beating around the bush" tone...I believe. Ergo, if he appears to be the "good guy" relative to my "bad guy" reputation (in reference to Star Wars critique), then maybe someone will start to take his opinions seriously.

Third, I'm talking about MR in third person because he "ignores" me. If he chose to listen to all points of view as I do, then I could address him directly.


What I'd genuinely like to hear are some of MR's explanations for his alternate interpretations. It's one thing to express an opinion. It's another to fully explain it and express it clearly to others. But so far, all I've managed to read in many of his posts are either flat disagreements with no explanation or alternate opinions, again without expanding upon the ideas expressed. :(