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bigbarada
08-18-2001, 02:55 AM
I'm not sure if this has ever been brought up before or if the rumours are even true. Do you believe there is a traitor on the Council? If so who?

I'm betting it's Plo Koon, he just looks like he's up to no good.;)

the master jedi
08-18-2001, 12:04 PM
If there is a traitor my guess would be mace windu. His personality just doesn't seem right as a jedi to me.

Griff
08-18-2001, 01:50 PM
I am not sure but if there was one it probably would not be Plo Koon. Why? Because I think he is cool!;)

bigbarada
08-18-2001, 02:05 PM
It's Yoda, it must be Yoda!! How else does he survive the Jedi Purge?? And escape death at Vader's hand??!!

j/k:D

the master jedi
08-18-2001, 04:32 PM
Then how would Obi-Wan have survived, bigbarada?

JediTricks
08-18-2001, 05:53 PM
Since before we learned for sure that Eeth Koth and Darth Maul were the same species, I've felt that Eeth Koth would eventually become a traitor, though not like Vader/Anakin. Koth's lightsaber is very similar to Maul's (though he "traded" it with Mace Windu, which is why Mace's saber was changed in later promo stuff to match Maul's) and they looked the same, now we learn that they're the same species... I dunno, I think Lucas is setting Koth up to be a baddie.

2-1B
08-18-2001, 06:04 PM
What would everyone think if it IS Koth?

My initial reaction is that it would be pretty weak. Why go with Maul's species as another Sith? If there is a traitor, I think it should be from a different race.

What are some possible story twists in which Mace Windu could be the enemy? I might like that . . .

bigbarada
08-18-2001, 08:04 PM
Maybe Yarael Poof sells the Jedi out as payback for all the years of taunting by the other members of the Council:

Yoda: "Earwax build-up I have. Loan me your head you will, Master Poof! Heh, heh, heh."

:D

PloKoon2385
08-19-2001, 01:13 AM
Many of the Jedi Council Members in Ep. I will not be on the Council in Ep. II. I think it'll be, if anyone, Luminara. If she is on the Council. She is the new character that is shown on the official website. She just looks suspicious........

2-1B
08-19-2001, 01:20 AM
The more I think about Koth, the goofier it sounds. How could Maul be so mysterious when he's not even the only member of his race in TPM?

We fans are not supposed to know his homeworld (unless there's some EU I'm unaware of). Anyway, within the story line Obi-Wan should be able to relay the news to the Council that Maul was of the same species as Koth.

GNT
08-19-2001, 02:12 AM
Cone head always wanted to be at the head of the council and is the traitor who will kill Mace and others with Vader!

JediTricks
08-19-2001, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
The more I think about Koth, the goofier it sounds. How could Maul be so mysterious when he's not even the only member of his race in TPM?

We fans are not supposed to know his homeworld (unless there's some EU I'm unaware of). Anyway, within the story line Obi-Wan should be able to relay the news to the Council that Maul was of the same species as Koth. Maul had facial tattoos that were much more extreme than Koth's, plus his "mysteriousness" for Qui-Gon and the Jedi Council was all through seeing a hooded character dressed in black and having a skill in the Jedi arts. Kinda vague.

There is indeed some EU that supports this, check out the official site's listings for Maul and Koth.

Eternal Padawan
08-19-2001, 09:04 AM
Ki-Adi "Conehead" Mundi is also the only council member who hasn't made it to jedi master status. The taunting for that alone could send him over the edge...

james the hutt
08-19-2001, 05:59 PM
I think it will be Mace Windu. He and Yoda are the only two of the council that have the power (IMO) to betray the council that would cause the near extinction of the Jedi, and we all know that its not going to be Yoda.

Jargo
08-19-2001, 06:59 PM
I think it's Koth simply because I'm sceptical of the reasoning for bringing an action figure of him out now just as the movie build up starts. If you look at the action figure those lines on his face look like cats whiskers and cats can't be trusted one inch! So I reckon he's got a bigger role in the saga than we are being lead to believe. And that role is as a big fat snitch! :)

evenflow
08-20-2001, 09:42 AM
If there is, it has to be Mace Windu. He just does not have that feeling of wisdom on honor to him when he speaks or sits in his council chair.

PloKoon2385
08-20-2001, 02:28 PM
It's not Windu, he's too...nice. It's gotta be someone who is not as outspoken. Like Adi Gallia, she is supposed to have lots of contacts, right? Hmm......:confused:

Jedi Clint
08-20-2001, 04:18 PM
The Jedi report to Palpatine. Palpatine betrays their trust. There is no need for a traitor on the Jedi Council.

PloKoon2385
08-20-2001, 11:59 PM
Maybe one of the Jedi inadvertantly betrays them. They tell Palpatine something and he strikes at them. That would make the most sense to me. I mean, the Jedi members would sense something wrong if there were a traitor.

PloKoon2385
08-21-2001, 12:27 AM
Unless of course it is Barada! Oh yeah.....he isn't gifted with the Force.......hehehehe

JediTricks
08-21-2001, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by james the hutt
I think it will be Mace Windu. He and Yoda are the only two of the council that have the power (IMO) to betray the council that would cause the near extinction of the Jedi, and we all know that its not going to be Yoda. Don't we already know that it's going to be Anakin Skywalker who does this?

evenflow
08-21-2001, 08:27 AM
An interesting twist would be if it was Yoda? He does it without knowing and that is why he runs into hiding to Dagobah.

I still think it is Mace Windu though.

PloKoon2385
08-21-2001, 01:31 PM
It's not Mace. He is too well respected and loyal. I think it is probably just a Jedi who betrays them by accident. And we know it's not Anakin because he isn't on the Jedi Council. Unless of course, it's Darth Tyranus. I mean, he was a little old to have been trained by Palpatine in ten years. Maybe he used to be a Jedi and now he has turned Sith.

Jedi Clint
08-21-2001, 01:38 PM
Unless of course, it's Darth Tyranus. I mean, he was a little old to have been trained by Palpatine in ten years. Maybe he used to be a Jedi and now he has turned Sith.

That fits what we know. Dooku could have been on the Council prior to TPM and left prior to it as well, or after it took place and left as events escalated toward the chaos of AOTC.

master jedi
08-21-2001, 02:04 PM
As far as we know Darth Tyranus was/is a Jedi named Count Dooku.

Jedi Clint
08-21-2001, 02:21 PM
Christopher Lee's official site seems to have confirmed as much as well. At least that is what the report on TF.net said.

Jedi Clint
08-21-2001, 02:34 PM
http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/tfn.cgi?action=getstory&storyID=11968


http://www.christopherleeweb.com/md/film.php?dvd_search=&dvd_search_type=&dvd_max_results=50&dvd_sort=&dvd_search_results=200

PloKoon2385
08-21-2001, 02:57 PM
So it is Dooku! We have solved it, or atleast we think so. Maybe.......Oh I am so confused.............:confused:

JediTricks
08-22-2001, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by PloKoon2385
And we know it's not Anakin because he isn't on the Jedi Council.I was just saying that Anakin betrays the council, not that he's on it. That obviously wouldn't make sense.

Obi-Don
08-22-2001, 05:47 PM
maybe Palpatine uses Ani to get the info that he needs to do his drity work and Ani doesn't know what he is doing "or maybe he does."Ani seemed real up set about not being trained.

Jedi Clint
08-22-2001, 06:01 PM
maybe Palpatine uses Ani to get the info that he needs to do his drity work and Ani doesn't know what he is doing "or maybe he does."

I could see this.

Jargo
08-22-2001, 06:06 PM
And tf.n have the absolute gods honest verbatim word on the matter do they?

Everything is speculation and no matter what you think you know, you're probably wrong. Please don't claim to know. claim to have information that is speculation only, but don't tell me you know. It looks so smug and self satisfied and totally condescending. There won't be a final cut until may of next year so you can't possibly 'know'.

I'm not having a go at anyone in particular, just requesting that we all keep this thing in perspective. I'd hate for anyone to claim they 'know' and then be made to look foolish come May. :)

Jedi Clint
08-22-2001, 07:51 PM
And tf.n have the absolute gods honest verbatim word on the matter do they?

The information provided from TF.net in this topic was provided by yours truly, and if you will reexamine my posts I made no such claim about that information. Lee's website is the source of the TF.net's report.

I hope you can see why, despite your claim of "not having a go at anyone in particular", I could feel slightly singled out by your "request". I believe I understand your position on this. I do not make declarative statements without having a great deal of confidence in the information I present. I realize that the more of these types of statements one makes, the more likely they are to look foolish in retrospect. I will take my chances in regards to that principle.

There is a great deal of information regarding AOTC that has come from those involved with it's creation. There is also a great deal of information that seems to be legitimate that comes from those who claim to be involved with it's creation. Out of respect for your request, I will attempt to specify which source I am drawing from in the future, but I make no promises. If you wish to take issue with any specific claims that I make, I am open to the challenge. "Everything" is not speculation about AOTC.

Jargo
08-23-2001, 07:34 PM
Did I say that ? How shocking... I really must stop thinking out loud....

Jedi Clint
08-23-2001, 09:00 PM
:rolleyes:

2-1B
07-03-2002, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
Everything is speculation and no matter what you think you know, you're probably wrong. Please don't claim to know. claim to have information that is speculation only, but don't tell me you know. It looks so smug and self satisfied and totally condescending. There won't be a final cut until may of next year so you can't possibly 'know'.

Well, I knew it was Sifo-Dyas, but I didn't want to look so smug! :p

Lobito
07-04-2002, 02:01 PM
Who's Sifo Dyas???

Lobito
07-04-2002, 02:51 PM
Ok, i just read who Sifo Dyas is...now i remember, i have to see the movie again. I've just seen it once!!

DeadEye
07-04-2002, 03:56 PM
And I've seen it a paltry three times. :(

Tycho
07-04-2002, 04:07 PM
If the Jedi wanted Jango Fett alive, why did Mace kill him?

DeadEye
07-04-2002, 04:14 PM
Because Jango was trying to kill him...it was either self-defense or bloodlust. In the novel, Mace killed him by accident. He swung to deflect a blaster bolt that never came...only Jango's neck did. :p

Tycho
07-04-2002, 04:43 PM
Interesting part about the novel. I don't know if that should have been allowed to stay in there for continuity's sake.

Jango shot at Obi-Wan but Obi-Wan's aim was not to kill him. Yoda ordered the bounty hunter brought in for questioning - ALIVE.

So Jango was shooting at a Jedi. Zam Wessel pulled a gun on Obi-Wan, too.

So Jango is armed to the teeth. There's a point when all that could be ineffective against a Jedi.

I think perhaps Mace had something to do with Jango's recruitment. Then Jango feels betrayed, because Mace was their inside guy and he used the Clones against the Separatists (in Jango's eyes, though we know it was Yoda).

So Jango wanted retribution - not just for Mace getting the drop on him by sneaking in that way - but for much more than that.

And Mace saw to it that Jango could not be questioned at all. Because why were the Jedi there? Obi-Wan ended up on Geonosis to still try and capture Jango Fett. The other Jedi came to rescue him, but with 100 or more of them, they should have no problem catching a single bounty hunter if they could survive most of the interference of the droids. When Jango was dead, Dooku offered them the chance to live...

I just noticed that. And Mace and Dooku locked eyes at that moment, too.

Very interesting. Mace is up to something!

scruffziller
07-04-2002, 04:57 PM
No I think it is Qui Gonn Jinn, I don't think he really died that is why Neeson is signed on for EPS3.:rolleyes:

DeadEye
07-04-2002, 05:15 PM
Tycho--

Everyone says Obi-Wan tried to capture Jango. But just before Jango first ignited his jetpack, Obi-Wan slashed at him! A slash with a lightsaber is often lethal. :p

Tycho
07-04-2002, 05:41 PM
So I've Noticed! (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=125746)

LTBasker
07-04-2002, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by DeadEye
Tycho--

Everyone says Obi-Wan tried to capture Jango. But just before Jango first ignited his jetpack, Obi-Wan slashed at him! A slash with a lightsaber is often lethal. :p

I think he sensed what was gonna happen and he wanted to get Jango one way or another. He could've tried to of just slashed his stomach to give him a nasty wound that would make him weak but not kill him.

Lobito
07-04-2002, 06:02 PM
If the Jedi wanted Jango Fett alive, why did Mace kill him?

IMO there was no reason to keep Jango alive if they already knew Dooku was behind all the mess, now, the one they must try to capture is Dooku to find out who is the other sith. Still when OB1 and Anakin are fightinga aginst Dooku they are obliged to finish Dooku at all costs, if not it will meant their lives. Just the way it happened with Darth Maul in EP I.

But...thats just my opinion.:)

DeadEye
07-04-2002, 07:14 PM
Or, maybe Obi-Wan was trying to sever one of Jango's arms!!!

And Tycho, I don't understand that picture. :confused:

Tycho
07-04-2002, 07:36 PM
Just curious, but how old are you DeadeEye?

The picture has to do with business and if you're not "the newspaper type," umm.......you won't really get the joke.

On a level more basic than that, you know about me and Darth Mouse probably?

I'm his talent manager.

We're still friends but we had a fight and he wanted me to come down to his level.

That was his way of getting me to listen to his 'creative input' you might say.

We use a lot of special effects in the show-business, so that wasn't real blood, it was ketchup!

But business is nasty stuff. Nasty stuff. Stay in school. Enjoy it while it lasts! :)

DeadEye
07-04-2002, 07:48 PM
No, I didn't know that.
And I'm 16 for ten more days. Just look at my avatar--do I look old enough to be a businessman? :p:D

2-1B
07-04-2002, 09:02 PM
Tycho, good question as to why Mace killed Jangers. :)

Yes, Yoda wanted him for questioning, they needed to find out what was going on. But later on after Obi-Wan reaches Geonosis, he tells them that it's "clear" :rolleyes: Nute was behind the attacks on Padme . . . so he is no longer "needed" for questioning.

That's how I perceive the matter. :)

DeadEye
07-04-2002, 10:34 PM
I now share similar perceptions...your logic has made you powerful! :p

Tycho
07-06-2002, 01:53 AM
Something doesn't add up:

Obi-Wan's investigation turns up the following facts (or statements by suspects which have to be verified).


1) Sifo-Dyas (presumed dead 10 years ago) ordered the cloning of an army for the Republic on Kamino.

2) Jango Fett was recruited by a man named "Tyranus" (not DARTH Tyranus, though we know as much - Obi-Wan does not)

3) Jango Fett asked for "considerable pay" and one unaltered clone -Boba Fett - who is presently 10 years old.

4) Obi-Wan's original mission was to track the bounty hunter trying to assasinate Padme. That's Jango Fett (who hired Zam Wessel to do the job for him). This led him to Kamino - for no reason to do with Clones. And then it led him to Geonosis - for no reason to do with the Trade Federation entering in a treaty to supply the Separatists with BattleDroids.

5) Obi-Wan learns that Nute Gunray wants Padme dead. (She's been filing lawsuits and dragging him into court 4 times already according to Sio Bibble's lines earlier in the movie. Naboo is suing the Trade Federation for damages done 10 years ago apparently).

6) One would conclude that Nute Gunray hired Jango Fett (he has the money) but Jango doesn't move on Padme when Nute tells him to finish her in the arena.

7) We know that Dooku is Tyranus, but Obi-Wan doesn't. But at a basic level, Tyranus hiring Fett to be cloned has nothing to do with Nute hiring him to kill Padme. But Nute is crying to Dooku (Tyranus) that she's not dead yet. So it's more logical to think - and for Obi-Wan to think - (because of reason 6) that Dooku hired Jango. Therefore Obi-Wan might conclude that Dooku is Tyranus after he fought the Jedi and attempted to kill Obi-Wan himself, Anakin (possibly - though he turned his saber off instead of delivering a killing blow, which was curious), and even Yoda.

If Mace was in on a plot, Dooku wouldn't have to have him killed, or there just wasn't an opportunity. The only other Jedi that know what's going on (sort of) are Yoda and Obi-Wan. Dooku tried to kill Obi-Wan, twice actually, and he was trying to kill Yoda...

Mace could be dirty as in a Sith ally, or Dooku and Mace could have hatched a plan to get rid of the Sith and are involved in covert manuevers that would never have been approved by Yoda or the High Council. Either way though, there's some issues between Yoda and his former padawan! That was an attempt to get Yoda out of the way. Were Yoda killed, Mace would control the High Council.

Mace doesn't need to have the other Jedi killed. Neither does Dooku. So long as no one knows what's going on, the rest of the Jedi will follow Mace's orders. Yoda is the main obstacle to that because he is Mace's superior.

There's a lot of strange things going on here.

DarthSetnom
07-07-2002, 04:24 AM
I'm sorry i just don't think there is a traitor in the Council. There's really no need for that. The Jedi are losing their ability to use the Force, they are becoming arrogant. In short their distractions and blindness will lead them to self destruction.

After reading all the theories I still can't find one that convinces me that Mace Windu is a traitor. I mean Yoda is not THAT blind. Or stupid. The man is respected and considered an equal to Yoda, and IMO the only reason why he dies and Yoda survives is because Yoda's species live longer than humans, so basically, if Yoda survives he will be able to live long enough to train one of the Skywalker kids... Mace Windu would have died of age...

And he killed JF because they had already found out who was behind the conflict. Dooku. Or at least he seemed to be. JF was no longer useful to the Jedi. And also if some bounty hunter set your clothes on fire, killed some of your colleagues AND tried to kill you by repeatedly shooting at you, it seems only reasonable that you fight back. If he dies in the process, well that's too bad. Nobody likes bounty hunters anyway.