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Dar Basra
06-02-2003, 04:42 PM
It's always bugged me, and probably has been discussed here before, but why in heck didn't Qui-Gon and Anakin simply take Shmi with them?

Qui-Gon's first deal with Watto: Puts up the Queen's Ship as entry fee, and Anakin's pod racer for the race. Watto puts up the boy as pilot, and wants 50/50 split of the winnings, if any. Qui-Gon changes the deal to have Watto put up the entry fee, and Watto can keep all of the winnings, less enough to cover the parts Qui-Gon needs, or if they lose, Watto gets the Queen's ship.

Qui-Gon's second deal with Watto: Qui-Gon wants to bet the pod-racer that Anakin will win, with Watto to put up the freedom of Anakin and Shmi. Watto objects, saying that the pod-racer isn't worth 2 slaves, but agrees to put up 1, and Qui-Gon fixes the dice roll to make it Anakin.

When the race is over, though, since Anakin won the race, Qui-Gon is left holding the Queen's Ship, the necessary parts, Anakin ... AND the pod-racer. If the pod-racer was quivalent to 1 slave when betting, then why wasn't it equivalent to 1 slave when bartering? Qui-Gon and Anakin didn't take it with them ... so why didn't they trade it to Watto for Shmi?

Oh yeah, because that would have foiled the tenuously thin mcguffin that Anakin's fear for his mother, and later his revenge of her torture, sends him scurrying down the dark path.

RooJay
06-02-2003, 05:28 PM
It was explained in the movie that it had been common practice for Jedi (initiates) children had familial ties severed when they were accepted for training. The Jedi removed these children from their families and took custody of them as common practice. This is in effort to prevent the children from creating familial bonds wich could later be conceivably exploited or possibly lead to disruptive emotional interference to the Jedi lifestyle. Qui-Gon probably wouldn't take Shmi along for the ride since her presence could conceivably interfere with Anakin's training. Anakin had already had the disadvantage of having already formed an emotional bond with his mother when his training was begun, which is why he was considered too old and why the Council initially did not want to accept him. Having his mother nearby could've conceivably only made his training more dificult.

Dar Basra
06-02-2003, 05:36 PM
Well, that's a nice explanation, except that when Qui-Gon first made the bet with Watto, he wanted to bet the pod against both Anakin and Shmi. So unless Qui-Gon went home and read his jedi rule book that night, why his sudden change of heart? And even if he didn't want to bring her along, he still could have bought her freedom with the pod.

Darth Jax
06-02-2003, 07:34 PM
watto wasn't going to part with two slaves, hence the roll of the dice to decide who might be freed.

after the race anakin sold the pod-racer. the amount is not divulged, but one must only assume that it is too small a sum to buy shmi's freedom. since watto was already hacked that qui-gon won not only the parts but anakin's freedom as well, figure he wouldn't sell shmi to anakin or qui-gon simply out of spite.

TheDarthVader
06-02-2003, 11:28 PM
Yes, Anakin sells the pod and gives a deal of "money" to Jira, the old lady street vendor. Those are good questions, but the answer is that Watto would not give up two slaves. Think about this: Watto didn't think Anakin would win...that is why he gambled in the first place. Secondly, Watto would not just sell Shmi for the "money" anakin gets for the pod or just trade her for the pod. However, he is willing to GAMBLE one slave. That is the key to your question. GAMBLE. :)

stillakid
06-03-2003, 12:35 AM
Dar, you appear to be entirely correct. None of the alternate explanations I've read here were actually in the film. Must be additional info from other sources.

You are right. Qui Gon clearly wanted to free both slaves but is rebuffed. Once he wins the whole thing, he still has the podracer which is worth the price of Shmi. Clearly George conveniently glossed over this problem because he needed to kill her off in an overly convenient manner so that it would result in Anakin having another of his irrational outbursts directed at Obi Wan.

Can anyone say "Rube Goldberg"? ;)

seth_quinn
06-03-2003, 01:41 AM
in hopes of answering the thread title question (with bigger hopes that I'm right) I think I heard or read somewhere that the mystery buyer was Sebulba who needed a pod to replace the one he just wrecked. as for the rest, I like RooJay's explanation about separating padawans from parents.

RooJay
06-03-2003, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Dar, you appear to be entirely correct. None of the alternate explanations I've read here were actually in the film. Must be additional info from other sources.

You are right. Qui Gon clearly wanted to free both slaves but is rebuffed. Once he wins the whole thing, he still has the podracer which is worth the price of Shmi. Clearly George conveniently glossed over this problem because he needed to kill her off in an overly convenient manner so that it would result in Anakin having another of his irrational outbursts directed at Obi Wan.

Can anyone say "Rube Goldberg"? ;)

I'd really rather not get too deep into another discussion with you concerning the prequels, but if you carefully reread my previous post you will note that everything I make mention of is most certainly covered in the films in some way or another. One thing that wasn't in the film was the notion that the Podracer was equal in value to Shmi's freedom. Where that bit of info comes from I'm not sure I understand. The point of the matter is that whether or not Qui-Gon had ended up freeing Shmi or not it is still doubtful he would've taken her along with Anakin with. There is nothing in either of the two prequels released do far that would indicate that Qui-Gon would ever have allowed Shmi to be involved in Anakin's training and upbringing after the point that he was freed from slavery. There was plenty stated within either movie to indicate that the opposite would have occured regardless of whether or not Qui-Gon had managed to free Shmi as well.



It is true according to EU sources that Sebulba did indeed buy Anakin's Pod after the race.

stillakid
06-03-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by RooJay
It was explained in the movie that it had been common practice for Jedi (initiates) children had familial ties severed when they were accepted for training. The Jedi removed these children from their families and took custody of them as common practice. This is in effort to prevent the children from creating familial bonds wich could later be conceivably exploited or possibly lead to disruptive emotional interference to the Jedi lifestyle. Qui-Gon probably wouldn't take Shmi along for the ride since her presence could conceivably interfere with Anakin's training. Anakin had already had the disadvantage of having already formed an emotional bond with his mother when his training was begun,

Where exactly in The Phantom Menace does it say all of this? :confused: Would it be possible for you to cut and paste all the relevant dialogue? Thanks! :)


Originally posted by RooJay
which is why he was considered too old and why the Council initially did not want to accept him. Having his mother nearby could've conceivably only made his training more dificult. Again, says who? Where in The Phantom Menace does it say this?


Originally posted by RooJay
One thing that wasn't in the film was the notion that the Podracer was equal in value to Shmi's freedom. Where that bit of info comes from I'm not sure I understand.


ANAKIN : Ahhhh....it wasn't my fault really...Sebulba flashed me with his vent ports. I actually saved the Pod...mostly.
WATTO : (laughing) That you did. The boy is good, no doubts there.
QUI-GON : I have...acquired a Pod in a game of chance. "The fastest ever built."
WATTO : I hope you didn't kill anyone I know for it. (laughs) So, you supply the Pod and the entry fee; I supply the boy. We split the winnings fifty-fifty, I think.
QUI-GON : Fifty-fifty!?! If it's going to be fifty-fifty, I suggest you front the cash for the entry. If we win, you keep all the winnings, minus the cost of the parts I need...If we lose, you keep my ship.

WATTO thinks about this. ANAKIN tries not to be nervous.

QUI-GON : (Cont'd) Either way, you win.
---------------------------------------

WATTO : Don't get me wrongo. I have great faith in the boy. He's a credit to your race, but Sebulba there is going to win, I think.
QUI-GON : Why?
WATTO : He always wins. (laughs) I'm betting heavily on Sebulba.
QUI-GON : I'll take that bet.
WATTO : (suddenly stops laughing) What??!! What do you mean?
QUI-GON : I'll wager my new racing pod against...say...the boy and his mother.
WATTO : A Pod for slaves. I don't think so...well, poerhaps. Just one...the mother, maybe...the boy isn't for sale.
QUI-GON : The boy is small, he can't be worth much.

WATTO shakes his head.

QUI-GON : (Cont'd) For the fastest Pod ever built?!

WATTO shakes his head again.

QUI-GON : (Cont'd) Both, or no bet.
WATTO : No Pod's worth two slaves...not by a long shot...one slave or nothing.
QUI-GON : The boy, then...

WATTO pulls out a small cube from his pocket.

WATTO : We'll let fate decide. Blue it's the boy, red his mother...

Clearly, a pod is worth one slave, and in fact, he is more than willing to give up Shmi in the bet, so the result is that Shmi=1 podracer.


Originally posted by RooJay
The point of the matter is that whether or not Qui-Gon had ended up freeing Shmi or not it is still doubtful he would've taken her along with Anakin with. There is nothing in either of the two prequels released do far that would indicate that Qui-Gon would ever have allowed Shmi to be involved in Anakin's training and upbringing after the point that he was freed from slavery. There was plenty stated within either movie to indicate that the opposite would have occured regardless of whether or not Qui-Gon had managed to free Shmi as well.
There's nothing to indicate that he wouldn't take her as far as I can recall. Again, please quote any dialogue from the film itself which says this.



Originally posted by RooJay
It is true according to EU sources that Sebulba did indeed buy Anakin's Pod after the race.
Right, not in the film. :)


Originally posted by Darth Jax
watto wasn't going to part with two slaves, hence the roll of the dice to decide who might be freed.
Right, he wasn't going to part with Anakin...see quote above. But he didn't want to part with two only because he really didn't want to lose Anakin. The worth of two vs. a podracer really had very little to do with it.


Originally posted by Darth Jax
after the race anakin sold the pod-racer. the amount is not divulged, but one must only assume that it is too small a sum to buy shmi's freedom. since watto was already hacked that qui-gon won not only the parts but anakin's freedom as well, figure he wouldn't sell shmi to anakin or qui-gon simply out of spite.
We don't know from the film that anybody sold the podracer. For all we know, it is still sitting there rusting out.


As far as not selling Shmi, we'll never know. In the film, Qui Gon never asks and it never comes up again after the race. All we do hear from Qui Gon is that he isn't here to free slaves.


Originally posted by TheDarthVader
Yes, Anakin sells the pod and gives a deal of "money" to Jira, the old lady street vendor.
Must be EU stuff or from the novelization.


Originally posted by TheDarthVader
Those are good questions, but the answer is that Watto would not give up two slaves. Think about this: Watto didn't think Anakin would win...that is why he gambled in the first place.
Right, he wasn't going to part with Anakin...see quote above. But he didn't want to part with two only because he really didn't want to lose Anakin. The worth of two vs. a podracer really had very little to do with it.


Originally posted by TheDarthVader
Secondly, Watto would not just sell Shmi for the "money" anakin gets for the pod or just trade her for the pod. However, he is willing to GAMBLE one slave. That is the key to your question. GAMBLE. :)
Right, he wasn't going to part with Anakin...see quote above. But he didn't want to part with two only because he really didn't want to lose Anakin. The worth of two vs. a podracer really had very little to do with it.


Originally posted by seth_quinn
in hopes of answering the thread title question (with bigger hopes that I'm right) I think I heard or read somewhere that the mystery buyer was Sebulba who needed a pod to replace the one he just wrecked.
EU or novelization.



Originally posted by seth_quinn
as for the rest, I like RooJay's explanation about separating padawans from parents.
Awaiting the quotes from the screenplay that support this notion. :)

Dar Basra
06-03-2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
Secondly, Watto would not just sell Shmi for the "money" anakin gets for the pod or just trade her for the pod. Yet he later sold her to Lars Clieg, apparently just for money (wasn't it said that Lars "bought her freedom", as opposed to, say, winning her in a poker game?)


Originally posted by RooJay
One thing that wasn't in the film was the notion that the Podracer was equal in value to Shmi's freedom Well, nothing maybe except the part where Qui-Gon wants to bet the pod against Shmi and Anakin and Watto said no pod was worth 2 slaves, but he would bet 1 of them. I don't see how anyone can take that in any way other than to mean a pod is apparantly worth 1 slave (and considering that the chance cube seemed to have more sides of one color than the other, and Watto picked the more abundant color for Shmi, it would certainly seem that Watto thought she was of even lesser value than Anakin - so if he let Anakin go in a bet against the pod, I find it difficut to believe Watto would not have been willing to trade Shmi for the pod racer).


Originally posted by RooJay
There is nothing in either of the two prequels released do far that would indicate that Qui-Gon would ever have allowed Shmi to be involved in Anakin's training and upbringing after the point that he was freed from slavery. Well, nothing maybe except the part where Qui-Gon wants to bet the pod against BOTH Shmi and Anakin. Even if Qui-Gon didn't intend to involve her in Anakin's training as you suggest (and I don't believe anyone else suggested such a thing), he at least obviously desired to win her freedom. So why didn't he then buy her freedom with the pod?

Edit: Stillakid and I apparently were drafting simultaneously.

stillakid
06-03-2003, 09:37 AM
And now that I think about it, all that stuff about Anakin's Jedi Training is beside the point. The question(s) as I see it were what happened to the Pod Racer and why didn't Qui Gon free Shmi?

The answer to the first is unknown according to the film. Once the race is won, that's it. We never hear or see of the machine again.

The answer to the second is similar, in that no attempt to free Shmi is made. Two things though: even if Qui Gon did manage to free her somehow (bet, buy, steal), this doesn't mean it would have screwed up Anakin's training. She could have stayed on Tatooine and met some nice older guy (which she later does) or she could have moved to Coruscant and found a nice 1 bedroom flat away from the Jedi school. Either way, she would have been free to do what she wanted. Clearly Qui Gon wanted to free them both at the beginning and for some unstated reason, he gives up on her as soon as he has the boy securely in his grasp.

But as far as Watto not giving her up, that doesn't make much sense anyway. According to the film, he lost everything. We can assume that he overleveraged himself. He'd have to sell everything he has to cover the bets...that would presumably include Shmi. He needs cash, not slaves. Was Shmi worth one podracer at that point (we know that she was earlier)? Maybe, maybe not, but again there is no attempt or mention of her status again, beyond Anakin wondering about it as he is bolting out the door. Qui Gon offers no reason why he didn't try to purchase her freedom at all. Apparently "Schindler" didn't carry over to this film. ;)

keith koth
06-03-2003, 12:55 PM
Once Qui-Gon had the hyperdrive needed for the ship's repair, he no longer had time to barter for Shimi's freedom...Remember, they urgently needed to get to Coruscant. Sure, Qui-Gon was willing to help free Shimi while he was stuck on Tatooine, as she had been overly generous towards him, even allowing her only son to risk his life in the pod race to help Qui-Gon out of a bad situation. Perhaps, if Qui-Gon had ever gotten the chance to take Anakin as his padawan learner, then he may have gone back to Tatooine at some point to try and free little Ani's mother, but we will never know, because...well...you know why.

So, what we do know from what was shown on screen is that Ani's podracer was sold for an undisclosed sum of money (presumedly at fair market value). We also know that the money obtained from the sale of the podracer was given to Shimi by Ani. Now, assumming that Watto was in a financial bind after his heavy betting losses from the podrace, why did Shimi not take the money from the sale of Ani's podracer and try to buy her own freedom...if Watto really needed the cash, he would have jumped at the opportunity to free her for the cash value of the "fastest podracer ever built".

Ultimately, where Shimi would have ended up after her freedom is not too important, as one can only assume that Padawans have little or no contact with their parents durring their training.

So, what did Shimi do with the money? Why did she not try to buy her freedom?

Dar Basra
06-03-2003, 02:32 PM
I'll have to go back and re-watch the farewell from Anakin to Shmi (it's not the most gripping of scenes) - but are you saying that in that scene, Anakin actually mentions selling the pod and gives the money to Shmi? It's possible, but I simply don't recall.

That would, of course, answer my initial question about what they did with the pod, though that stills leavs an incredibly unbelievable chain of events (ie - Shmi has enough money to buy her freedom, but does not do so).

I sort of recall Anakin saying he would come back and free her ... but again, I don't recall that scene very well.

Edit:Well, I found the script on line, and sure enough, it does address the selling of the pod, but apparently the funds were not enough. I'm still not sure that holds logically with the betting scene, however:

QUI-GON takes a handful of credits from beneath his poncho and hands them to the boy. QUI-GON : These are yours. We sold the Pod. ANAKIN : (suddenly beaming) Yes! INT. ANAKIN'S HOVEL - MAIN ROOM - DAY SHMI is cleaning up as ANAKIN bursts through the door, followed by QUI-GON. ANAKIN : Mom, he sold the Pod. Look at all the money we have! ANAKIN pulls a bag of coins out of his pocket. SHMI : Oh, my goodness, That's wonderful. QUI-GON : And Anakin has been freed. ANAKIN : What?!? QUI-GON : You're no longer a slave. ANAKIN jumps for joy! SHMI is stunned. ANAKIN : Did you hear that, Mom? (to Qui-Gon) Was that part of the prize, or what? QUI-GON : Let's just say Watto has learned an important lesson about gambling. SHMI : Now you can make your dreams come true, Annie. You're free! (turns to Qui-Gon) Will you take him with you? Is he to become a Jedi? QUI-GON : Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident. You are strong with the Force, but you may not be accepted by the Coucil. ANAKIN : A Jedi! Mighty blasters, you mean I get to go with you in your starship and everything?! QUI-GON kneels down to the boy. QUI-GON : Anakin, training to be a Jedi will not be a easy challenge. And if you succeed, it will be a hard life. ANAKIN : But it's what I want. What I've always dreamed about. Can I go, Mom?! QUI-GON : This path has been placed for you, Annie; the choice to take it is yours alone. ANAKIN thinks, looks to his mother, then to QUI-GON. ANAKIN : I want to go. QUI-GON : Then, pack your things. We haven't much time. ANAKIN : Yipee!! ANAKIN hugs his mom and starts for the other room, then stops. SHMI and QUI-GON give each other a knowing look. ANAKIN has realized something. ANAKIN : (Cont'd) What about Mom? Is she free too? You're coming, aren't you, Mom QUI-GON : I tried to free your mother, Annie, but Watto wouldn't have it. ANAKIN : But the money from selling... QUI-GON : It's not nearly enough.

stillakid
06-03-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Once Qui-Gon had the hyperdrive needed for the ship's repair, he no longer had time to barter for Shimi's freedom...Remember, they urgently needed to get to Coruscant.

What, he couldn't have just said to Watto, "hey, you need cash, I'll give you some for the mom." How long would that have taken? But he never bothered to try to free her again. What a selfish lout.


Originally posted by keith koth
Now, assumming that Watto was in a financial bind after his heavy betting losses from the podrace, why did Shimi not take the money from the sale of Ani's podracer and try to buy her own freedom...if Watto really needed the cash, he would have jumped at the opportunity to free her for the cash value of the "fastest podracer ever built".
Right. What I said. :) None of it makes much sense. Lucas felt that he needed to keep her as a slave for some reason despite it flying in the face of logic at that point.



Originally posted by keith koth
So, what we do know from what was shown on screen is that Ani's podracer was sold for an undisclosed sum of money (presumedly at fair market value).


Originally posted by Dar Basra
QUI-GON takes a handful of credits from beneath his poncho and hands them to the boy. QUI-GON : These are yours. We sold the Pod. ANAKIN : (suddenly beaming) Yes!
I had to know so I found the same scene. It isn't as scripted, but the same idea is there. I stand corrected about that.



Originally posted by keith koth
We also know that the money obtained from the sale of the podracer was given to Shimi by Ani.


as filmedQUI GON: These are yours. Anakin grabs them and runs into the house. He hands the bag to Shmi. ANI: We sold the Pod, look at all the money we have!"
Which leads back to this question:


Originally posted by keith koth
So, what did Shimi do with the money? Why did she not try to buy her freedom?

In Watto's own words, he lost everything. He would have been happy to take Shmi's money in exchange for her freedom at that point, one would think.

What was the original question again?

DarthChuckMc
06-03-2003, 06:10 PM
In the scene after Anakin gives his Mom the money from the selling of the Podracer, Qui-Gon tells him he's free, no longer a slave.

Anakin does his YIPEE!! stuff, and asks about Shmi's freedom.....Qui-Gon says, "Watto wouldn't have it."

Why he wouldn't let her go at this point is unknown, other than because he refused to.

stillakid
06-03-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
In the scene after Anakin gives his Mom the money from the selling of the Podracer, Qui-Gon tells him he's free, no longer a slave.

Anakin does his YIPEE!! stuff, and asks about Shmi's freedom.....Qui-Gon says, "Watto wouldn't have it."

Why he wouldn't let her go at this point is unknown, other than because he refused to.

I knew someone would bring that up. ;)

Qui Gon asked Watto before the race, not after. That's the problem. Qui Gon got his parts, got the boy, then made tracks to get out of there. He had plenty of time to buy the woman or figure another way to do it but he didn't.

keith koth
06-03-2003, 06:16 PM
Based upon the lines from the movie , I'm assumming that Qui-Gon did, once again, try to buy Shimi's freedom...but it was not shown on screen.

ANAKIN : What about Mom? Is she free too? You're coming, aren't you, Mom

QUI-GON : I tried to free your mother, Annie, but Watto wouldn't have it.


Other considerations:

Maybe Shimi had underlying reasons behind not trying to buy her freedom. Maybe she had grown so accustom to being a slave that she would not know what to do if she were freed.

Maybe Watto was just so lazy that he wanted to keep a slave, even at the price of remaining in debt, so that she could do his house-work, etc.

DarthChuckMc
06-03-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
I knew someone would bring that up. ;)

Qui Gon asked Watto before the race, not after. That's the problem. Qui Gon got his parts, got the boy, then made tracks to get out of there. He had plenty of time to buy the woman or figure another way to do it but he didn't.


Just because you didn't SEE it take place, doesn't mean it didn't happen. If EVERY little detail WAS explained, the movie would be 4 hours long, and then you would complain that GL EXPLAINS everything.

stillakid
06-03-2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
Just because you didn't SEE it take place, doesn't mean it didn't happen. If EVERY little detail WAS explained, the movie would be 4 hours long, and then you would complain that GL EXPLAINS everything.

sigh. It isn't about having to see everything take place. It's about having a story that is written so well as to not inspire questions in the first place. George created a Rube Goldbergian plan so complex to get the heroes off the planet that it is riddled with inconsistencies and unnecessary detail. Had the story been written better, nobody would be asking years later why Shmi was left behind.

Take the example from earlier in comparison. The Star Destroyer gunners didn't take out the escape pod. I haven't heard many people asking why. Why do you suppose that is? Because the script tells the actors to say "must've malfunctioned." Dumb reason for not blowing it out of the sky? Maybe, but the reasoning behind a decision is a different issue. Like Luke waiting til morning to look for R2. "With all the sandpeople around, we'll have to wait until morning." Nobody questions that decision because it makes sense, but is this the kind of overexplaining that you're referring to? It only takes another quick second to add the "explanation" which bridges that reasoning in the audience mind. Even if the explanation is dumb, at least the audience isn't left sitting there going, "What the f*** did he do that for?" They know, then they can leave the theater and debate whether or not the reason was wise for the character or not. The key here is that the "fan discussion" is centered on the story itself, and not the technical structure of the story and whether or not the writer was doing his job.

All we had to hear was Qui Gon ask, "so Watto, you need cash, so I'll give you the podracer." Of course that would have opened up another can o' worms full of its own problems, which is why that isn't a great option either.

The only way to "save" the Tatooine sequence is to either go back to the beginning and rewrite and restructure it entirely, or to rationalize out all the reasons why everything happened the way it did. For me, I appreciate a well told story and give very little leaway to some films, Star Wars being one of them (the series). The elements are all there. It coulda been done better. It shoulda been done better. But it wasn't. Oh well. What are you gonna do? :rolleyes:

Dar Basra
06-03-2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
It's about having a story that is written so well as to not inspire questions in the first place. Such as ... If Darth Vader is tracking Leia, a rebel conspirator, and she leads him to Tatoiine ... the very planet Vader was born on, yet which is otherwise about as far as you can get from the center of the universe ... shouldn't that have raised some suspicions in Vader's head? Something like ... 'Hmmm, we never DID catch Obi-Wan Kenobi - maybe this is where is hiding?'

I personally think the idea to set the back story of Anakin's birth on Tatoiine was a mistake, that makes an out-of-the-way planet too much the center of things for too many important people, and ends up forcing onto the OT (and Ep. III) the absurd concept of hiding Anakin's son in the very homestead where Anakin's mother is buried.

stillakid
06-03-2003, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Dar Basra
Such as ... If Darth Vader is tracking Leia, a rebel conspirator, and she leads him to Tatoiine ... the very planet Vader was born on, yet which is otherwise about as far as you can get from the center of the universe ... shouldn't that have raised some suspicions in Vader's head? Something like ... 'Hmmm, we never DID catch Obi-Wan Kenobi - maybe this is where is hiding?'
Perhaps, but these are questions that the Prequels bring to mind, not the OT on it's own. Why? Because, based solely on OT information, Vader had no reason to think twice about Tatooine. In addition, it sounds like he figured that Obi Wan was still alive, but again, there was absolutely no reason for Vader to even blink when they got close to Tatooine.

The way that the OT was set up originally had Vader originating from an unknown place and it had Obi Wan hide baby Luke with his brother Owen Lars on a backwater planet.

Now, the Prequels tell us that Anakin/Vader originated from Tatooine and that the Lars family is related to Anakin and not Obi Wan. Not only does Obi Wan have absolutely NO reason whatsoever to take the baby back to Tatooine, but he has no idea that the Lars family even exists. These are problems introduced by the Prequels, and are not inherently present in the OT films.


Originally posted by Dar Basra
I personally think the idea to set the back story of Anakin's birth on Tatoiine was a mistake, that makes an out-of-the-way planet too much the center of things for too many important people, and ends up forcing onto the OT (and Ep. III) the absurd concept of hiding Anakin's son in the very homestead where Anakin's mother is buried.
I've conjectured about why Lucas would do this before. For those familiar with the DUNE series, by Frank Herbert, they'll remember that he set ARRAKIS, a desert planet, as the hub of activity, at least in terms of plot. Sound familiar? There were also sandworms (we see a skeleton of one in ANH), moisture harvesting (vaporators), Fremen (sandpeople), and some other very similar stuff. Lucas admits freely to using DUNE as an influence for Star Wars. It seems that he became a little overzealous in his quest to make Tatooine an emulation of Arrakis though. I'm not sure why. Still trying to figure it out...

Darth Jax
06-03-2003, 11:29 PM
originally posted by stillakid
Now, the Prequels tell us that Anakin/Vader originated from Tatooine and that the Lars family is related to Anakin and not Obi Wan. Not only does Obi Wan have absolutely NO reason whatsoever to take the baby back to Tatooine, but he has no idea that the Lars family even exists. These are problems introduced by the Prequels, and are not inherently present in the OT films.


guess we'll just have to wait for ep 3 and see if it's explained why luke ends up where he does, and for that matter leia.

if ep 3 manages to tie up many of the inconsistencies between PT and OT will that change your view of them any?

stillakid
06-04-2003, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Darth Jax
guess we'll just have to wait for ep 3 and see if it's explained why luke ends up where he does, and for that matter leia.

if ep 3 manages to tie up many of the inconsistencies between PT and OT will that change your view of them any?

Um, sort of. On it's own, TPM will always be a not so great movie. AOTC, on it's own, will be ok, but not stellar. The both of them, relative to the other episodes, will never quite be the same no matter what.

But, if George somehow magically pulls a rabbit out of his hat and manages to tie up the numerous loose ends and inconsistencies in Episode III, then maybe I'll look upon this new era a little differently. But I don't think it's possible to accomplish all of that within the framework of what needs to happen in Ep III. To "fix" the problems introduced thus far, he either as to go back into Episodes I and II to fix those things (unlikely), or he has to go into the OT films to add, change, and delete things that don't mesh with the new Prequel continuity (likely).

Drop one domino, and the rest will fall on their own. You either pick em all up and start over again, or you let it go and live with the results. I think we're in for #2. :(

JediTricks
06-04-2003, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by keith koth
Maybe Watto was just so lazy that he wanted to keep a slave, even at the price of remaining in debt, so that she could do his house-work, etc. IIRC, human slaves are not really important as workers, they are more about status symbols since droids can do their work cheaper and more efficiently. I think Watto wouldn't part with Shmi to Qui-Gon simply based on ego, Watto's ego had been stung by the massive loss caused in his mind by the QGJ and simply wouldn't let QGJ have the other thing he wanted. It's thin, but I think it fits enough.

keith koth
06-04-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
IIRC, human slaves are not really important as workers, they are more about status symbols since droids can do their work cheaper and more efficiently. I think Watto wouldn't part with Shmi to Qui-Gon simply based on ego, Watto's ego had been stung by the massive loss caused in his mind by the QGJ and simply wouldn't let QGJ have the other thing he wanted. It's thin, but I think it fits enough.

Yes, I agree that slaves are a status symbol...and Watto probably would not let Shimi go because of his ego...BUT...Droids doing work cheeper? :confused: Shimi is a slave...she doesn't get paid...otherwise, she is not a slave...a prisioner perhaps...but not a slave.

stillakid
06-04-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Yes, I agree that slaves are a status symbol...and Watto probably would not let Shimi go because of his ego...BUT...Droids doing work cheeper? :confused: Shimi is a slave...she doesn't get paid...otherwise, she is not a slave...a prisioner perhaps...but not a slave.

Food, water, shelter...birth control :eek:

keith koth
06-05-2003, 09:01 AM
DROIDS: oil baths, maintenance, memory wipes, shelter, power cells?, etc....these things cost money too! :D

gibbyhayes
06-17-2003, 02:52 PM
This has been one of the best debates I've followed here. It does give me one chilling realization however. This saga is the story of..."Little Orphan Ani".
Sorry.

stillakid
06-17-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by gibbyhayes
This has been one of the best debates I've followed here. It does give me one chilling realization however. This saga is the story of..."Little Orphan Ani".
Sorry.

:rolleyes: Enough of that, young man. We'll talk more about it...

TOMORROW, TO-MORROW....


;)