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Pendo
06-07-2003, 05:40 PM
I was watching ANH on ITV1 before, and when Obi's "He betrayed and murdered your father" line came on, it got me thinking, could Obi-Wan be telling Luke what he did to Anakin, but telling Luke it was really Vader. Will Obi-Wan betray Anakin???

When the audience watch the films in order they will automoatically know of old Ben's lies, and will think he is twisting it for his own good, trying to steer Luke away from the truth. This will make the audience start to dislike Obi and begin wonder if he is really as good as once thought. It would only be when Vader utters the "I am your father" line that the audience will begin to realise why Obi-Wan lied.

So will Obi-Wan somehow betray Anakin, and if so what will he do? Will Obi-Wan's betrayal be Anakin's final push towards the dark side?

PENDO!

I am Jabba the Hutt
06-07-2003, 06:24 PM
Personally, I think that Obi-Wan could very well betray Anakin cause at the end of the day, he thinks of the big picture and he will do anything to ensure that Anakin won't find Padme, Luke, Leia and Yoda.
I think if anyone will betray Anakin, it will be Palpatine, he'll turn Anakin against the only people that love and care for him

dr_evazan22
06-07-2003, 07:53 PM
Will Obi betray Ani? No.

Will Ani FEEL betryayed? Yes.

scruffziller
06-09-2003, 10:35 AM
Like Obi revealed in ROTJ, a certain point of view.

Exhaust Port
06-09-2003, 11:13 AM
I always got the impression in the final duel between Obi-wan and Darth Vader that Vader was out for some payback. Then there was also that line about the "student is now the master" or something like that. Perhaps there is a duel between Obi and Anakin in Ep. 3 where Obi puts the hurt on Anakin.

From what we saw in ANH, there has to be a reason that Vader has some issues with Obi-wan.

stillakid
06-09-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Pendo
When the audience watch the films in order they will automoatically know of old Ben's lies [/B]

What "old lies"? What "lies" period actually? Obi Wan has never lied in the Prequels and he didn't really in the OT either. :confused:

Pendo
06-09-2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
What "old lies"? What "lies" period actually? Obi Wan has never lied in the Prequels and he didn't really in the OT either. :confused:

I know Obi-Wan has never lied in the Prequels, but his "certain point of view" could be classed as a lie, especially to someone viewing the trilogy in order having never seen his explination of his POV in ROTJ.

PENDO!

stillakid
06-09-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Pendo
I know Obi-Wan has never lied in the Prequels, but his "certain point of view" could be classed as a lie, especially to someone viewing the trilogy in order having never seen his explination of his POV in ROTJ.

PENDO!


Well, once again, it plays as usual in that case...Obi Wan's explanation holds that it wasn't a "lie" at all...it was just his point of view about the current state of the Anakin personality being dead and gone.

But, if we are to continue with this mindset that Obi Wan is a ratfink manipulating liar, then do we also include his outright lies about him finding Anakin, recognizing how strongly the Force was with him and taking it upon himself to train him as a Jedi Knight? Afterall, it was Qui Gon who did all of that stuff while Obi Wan was left on the starship to twiddle his thumbs and play Yahtzee with Panaka.

mini-rock
06-09-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Pendo
I know Obi-Wan has never lied in the Prequels, but his "certain point of view" could be classed as a lie, especially to someone viewing the trilogy in order having never seen his explination of his POV in ROTJ.

PENDO!

I agre. His POV can be classified as a lie. Not until ROTJ do we hear Obi-Wan's "certain POV" rationalization for what could be considered lies, and most likely still will be considered lies for anyone viewing these films as GL intended. Or perhaps they'll think "WOW, Uncle Owen was right. Obi-Wan is just a crazy old wizard." I guess living alone for all those years between EPS 3&4 took a toll on him.

Either way Old Obi-Wan obviously knows he is neck deep in his own bull**** when Luke confronts him in ROTJ, and uses the old "POV" bit as a shovel to dig himself out.

Darkross
06-10-2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
But, if we are to continue with this mindset that Obi Wan is a ratfink manipulating liar, then do we also include his outright lies about him finding Anakin, recognizing how strongly the Force was with him and taking it upon himself to train him as a Jedi Knight? Afterall, it was Qui Gon who did all of that stuff while Obi Wan was left on the starship to twiddle his thumbs and play Yahtzee with Panaka.

Personally...I like to see Obi-Wan's (so called) lie about Anakin this way...

Obi-Wan: "When I first knew him (Anakin and Obi-Wan first meet on the Royal Starship)...your father was already a great pilot (winning the Pod Race)...but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him (Whatever Qui-Gon relayed to Obi-Wan about Anakin while debating about the long-shot of the Pod-Race and Anakin's Midichlorian Count)...I took it upon myself (to fullfil Qui-Gon's dying plea to Obi-Wan) to train him as a Jedi."

As others have stated...A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW...in this case...Obi-Wan never stated that he "found" Anakin...just that he knew him. Since Qui-Gon's name would have meant nothing to Luke...why bother bringing it up anyway...since Obi-Wan was the first person to really train Anakin. Anakin wasn't Qui-Gon's Padawan...so anything that Qui-Gon told Anakin about the Force...was merely background information about the Force and how to possible tap it...but everthing else (all other knowledge and skill) came from Obi-Wan's teaching. Therefore with that said...Obi-Wan had the most influence on Anakin...so his statement about training him (Anakin) as a Jedi is mostly true.

stillakid
06-10-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Darkross
so his statement about training him (Anakin) as a Jedi is mostly true.


...after the fact. I won't go into all of this again (we've done it before ;) ), but the bottom line is that original viewers of the OT were led to believe that Obi Wan Kenobi found Anakin, he recognized his potential, and he took it upon himself to train Anakin as a Jedi. There are other statements throughout the OT to support this further, but like I said, we've been through it before.

But to the question, will Obi betray Anakin? I don't know how he could. There has never been anything in Obi's character that suggests that he is capable of betraying anyone. He's not a liar, or a cheat, or a manipulator, or a double-crosser. He has always shown only the best of intentions for the greater good.

Now, having said that, Anakin might certainly see it the other way. After being completely seduced by Palpatine, Anakin is likely to view anyone who disagrees with Palpatine as being "one of them." So when Obi confronts (conjecture) Anakin about Palpatine being a Sith Lord in Episode III, Anakin will just believe that Obi has joined the Separatists movement and is "betraying" the Republic. This logically would lead to Anakin "hating" the Jedi and proceeding to "hunt down and destroy" them, as Old Ben told us in ANH.

Of course, that's the way it should happen, so we can rest assured that George won't do it that way. ;)

Pendo
06-10-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
But to the question, will Obi betray Anakin? I don't know how he could. There has never been anything in Obi's character that suggests that he is capable of betraying anyone. He's not a liar, or a cheat, or a manipulator, or a double-crosser. He has always shown only the best of intentions for the greater good.

One possible way for Obi-Wan to betray Anakin, or at least in Ani's eyes, would be to tell the council that he has married Padmé, or to get him expelled from the Jedi order.

Or Obi-Wan could have to save Anakin's life, but fails. Anakin is then forced to wear his Vader suit to survive, and holds Obi-Wan responsible for not saving his life.

All Anakin's talk to Obi-Wan about betraying him could convince Obi-Wan himself that he did betray him, so when Obi says "He betrayed and murdered your father", he could indeed be thinking of what he actually did to Anakin.

PENDO!

The Overlord Returns
06-10-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by stillakid

He's not a liar, or a cheat, or a manipulator, or a double-crosser. He has always shown only the best of intentions for the greater good.


I would have to disagree on the "Ben as manipulator" thing. He clearly feeds Luke only the information designed to lead him towards going with Ben to save Leia. I'd classify that as a form of manipulation. One can have good intentions and still resort to manipulative tactics in service of a greater good.



Originally posted by stillakid

Of course, that's the way it should happen, so we can rest assured that George won't do it that way. ;)

Actually, from what happens in ep 2, I think this is exactly where GL is going with the anakin/ ben relationship breakdown. I don;t think it was any mistake that Dooku planted the idea of the senate being under sith control in obi wans head. Obi will figure it out, confront palpatine which will lead to the clash with Anakin.

stillakid
06-10-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Actually, from what happens in ep 2, I think this is exactly where GL is going with the anakin/ ben relationship breakdown. I don;t think it was any mistake that Dooku planted the idea of the senate being under sith control in obi wans head. Obi will figure it out, confront palpatine which will lead to the clash with Anakin.

That's assuming that Dooku knows of Palpatine's designs on Anakin. I don't believe that this is the case. Following the myth of the Sith, Dooku likely has plans of his own to overthrow Palpatine once things settle down a bit. What he doesn't know is that Palpatine will get the jump on him via the hothead Anakin Skywalker...

In my own personal version of Episode III ;) , Palpatine will double-cross Dooku by telling Anakin that Dooku is out to assasinate him (Palpatine). This sends Anakin out to kill Dooku (revenge for Anakin and the final "seduction" for Palpatine) which clears the way for Anakin to take that right hand spot.

When the Jedi (Yoda and Mace) confirm (somehow) that Palpatine is indeed a Sith Lord, they will tell Obi Wan, who in turn goes to look for Anakin. His first stop is Naboo, where he finds a distressed Padme. She tells Obi that Anakin left on a "mission" at the request of Palpatine. Though she doesn't know what it is exactly, she fears the worst for him. Why? She breaks down and tells Obi that she is pregnant. Obi darts off in search of Anakin, but only too late. Dooku is dead. Obi tries to let Anakin in on Palpatine's secret, but Anakin will have nothing of it. It is "clear" to Anakin that the Jedi intend to overthrow the Republic. They fight and the inevitable occurs.

Meanwhile, Palpatine also is confronted and accused. Using his political powers of persuasion, he convinces the Senate that the Jedi are corrupt and need to be dealt with just like the Separatists. Before the Jedi can escape, the Clone Air Force sweeps in and blows the Jedi Temple into rubble. The only escapees are Yoda, Mace, and a couple other random Jedi. Mace will die in a valiant attempt to save a younger Padawan, thus signaling the end. Yoda manages to get offworld and later meets up with Obi Wan on Naboo where they conspire to hide the Skywalker children. Roll credits....

The Overlord Returns
06-11-2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
That's assuming that Dooku knows of Palpatine's designs on Anakin. I don't believe that this is the case. Following the myth of the Sith, Dooku likely has plans of his own to overthrow Palpatine once things settle down a bit. What he doesn't know is that Palpatine will get the jump on him via the hothead Anakin Skywalker...


Well, regardless of Dooku's "ani" knowledge, I think it would work out the same either way. Dooku could be trying to screw Palps over, OR, he could be playing the sith from the inside, trying to expose the corruption. Either way, having Ben obsessed with uncovering sith control of the senate would lead to an eventual confrontation with Palpatine. Palps, who has been increasingly in anakins ear, has him all but controlled when Kenobi shows up. Battle ensues, ani is left for dead....

Hmm...I was actually thinking about how I would have done the entire trilogy. Based on what I would remove, or edit, from the two films thus far, and what I would keep. I would have loved to see Ben become the sort of tragic hero, who feels a horrible sense of guilt over the fall of the republic. Then again, in MY episode 1 ;), Anakin would have been 16 years old and shooting wamp rats in his T - 16 ;)

stillakid
06-12-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Then again, in MY episode 1 ;), Anakin would have been 16 years old and shooting wamp rats in his T - 16 ;)

I'm with ya there! Lucas, in his zeal to "match" :confused: the two trilogies, missed the mark by a mile.