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Tycho
06-18-2003, 05:14 AM
I've just been working out some interesting facts and suppositions.

I did some math based on both speculation, in the case of Dooku, and factual data gathered from the Jedi Apprentice Books.

Here goes:

MASTER YODA:

900 when he dies and Luke Skywalker is knighted
899 when he apprentices Luke Skywalker
878 when he goes into exile on Dagobah
874 when he becomes a general in the Clone Wars
864 when Dooku betrays him and leaves the Jedi Order
840 when he first meets Obi-Wan
817 when Dooku takes Qui-Gon Jinn as his apprentice
817 when Yoda apprentices Ki-Adi Mundi as his next padawan
813 when he knights Dooku
802 when he apprentices Dooku


COUNT DOOKU is 15 years older than Qui-Gon

89 (approximately) for Episode III
85 in AOTC
75 when he left the Jedi Order
66 when Anakin Skywalker was conceived
39 when Qui-Gon Jinn was first knighted
28 when he became Qui-Gon's master
13 when he became Yoda's apprentice

QUI-GON JINN is 36 years older than Obi-Wan

60 when killed in TPM
49 when he became Obi-Wan's master
39 when Qui-Gon was betrayed by Xanatos
28 when he became Xanatos' master
24 when he became knighted
13 when he became Dooku's apprentice


XANATOS is 15 years older than Xanatos

34 when he was killed in TDOR
24 when he betrayed Qui-Gon
13 when he became Qui-Gon's apprentice


Obi-Wan Kenobi is 15 years older than Anakin Skywalker

56 when killed by Darth Vader in ANH
56 when he apprentices Luke Skywalker
38 when he goes into exile on Tatooine
34 when he was a general during the Clone Wars (AOTC)
24 during TPM when he's knighted and becomes Anakin's master
15 when Anakin Skywalker is born
13 when he is apprenticed to Qui-Gon Jinn


Anakin Skywalker

45 when he is killed in his battle with Darth Sidious
44 when he sets a trap on Cloud City in attempt to capture Luke Skywalker
41 when he vanquishes his old Jedi Master, Obi-Wan Kenobi on the Death Star
23 when he is presumed dead and becomes Darth Vader
22 when he fathers Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia
19 when he marries Padme Naberrie-Amidala
9 when he becomes the apprentice of Obi-Wan Kenobi

Some interesting patterns develop here - some of which are disturbingly coincidental:

Jedi being 15 years older than their padawans cannot be the norm. One thing is clear: Obi-Wan started training Anakin when both of them were at too young of an age, not to mention Anakin not being raised in the Jedi Temple.

But can 4 more years as a full knight make a Jedi ready to teach a padawan by age 28? To get a 13 year old at that age, it would still be like becoming a father or mother at age 15 yourself.

I thought this was to be shown as part of what went wrong with Obi-Wan and Anakin, but Dooku and Qui-Gon each took their first apprentice at a young age.

Perhaps Qui-Gon took Xanatos so young, because he wanted to be like Dooku. The match ultimately failed.

Obi-Wan was not intended to be Anakin's master at so young of age, but we all know how that happened.

But Dooku had in fact trained Qui-Gon correctly, even if this wasn't normal for the age gap, proving it could be done.

What do you guys think?

And how old was Shmi Skywalker in TPM? If she was 40, then she was 31 when Anakin was conceived, but in my theory that Dooku was the father, a 66 year old with a 31 year old is possible (check out Harrison Ford with Ally McBeal) but sort of unlikely, unless she fell in love with her Jedi rescuer (who then gets her pregnant and leaves her in slavery).

Bel-Cam Jos
06-18-2003, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
I've just been working out some interesting facts and suppositions.

Anakin Skywalker

45 when he is killed in his battle with Darth Sidious
What do you guys think?
Heh.heh, heh. Good one, Tycho. Sneaking in that "spoiler" there. :p

Originally posted by Tycho
And how old was Shmi Skywalker in TPM? If she was 40, then she was 31 when Anakin was conceived, but in my theory that Dooku was the father, a 66 year old with a 31 year old is possible (check out Harrison Ford with Ally McBeal) but sort of unlikely, unless she fell in love with her Jedi rescuer (who then gets her pregnant and leaves her in slavery).
What about the fact if there really was no father? Many cultures have their savior, leader, king, prophet etc. born magically, not just Christ.

As to the topic, your calculations seem to be correct, I'd say.

Tycho
06-18-2003, 12:49 PM
Yes, but many cultures, including our own, with them being composed of so many different religious beliefs, are going to have to come to peaceful co-habitation without converting, or "saving" the rest of "the non-believers," especially since there's no way to prove the virgin birth or the origins of the belief when they are founded on things so far away in the past (or unverified and on the Outer Rim). Faith is not empirical fact.

Thus, if all the religious beliefs, including the virgin birth, turn out to be a lie, it could throw society, or those believing elements of it, into chaos, without their being organized under their religion.

Hence, Anakin learns that even his precious mother led him on into a life of lies, and everything he'd always thought he'd known about his past was false - that fact even allowing him to murder his own father before he knew the truth. So his thought process might be compared to, "If Jesus' relation to God was a lie, I might as well go bad since we're all going to be damned. And thus the vision of the Lord is perverted, into a lord of "lies and distrust are his ways now," and the Lord that is called Vader is born. (for many more reasons besides this, but it plays a significant role).

The trick is for an ethical, fair and just society to emerge out of secularism, even with all society's diversity, and it does in the Star Wars galaxy. Luke's restoration of justice (from his perspective) has nothing to do with prophesies about bringing a balance to the Force, and an off-shoot belief of his Jedi lineage's religion, it's simply about winning back the love of his father and the most basic moral values.

The Prophesy, was probably all a bunch of mambo-jambo that Dooku thought up and taught to Qui-Gon way later in their relationship, since obviously the two of them had contact after Qui-Gon graduated, but it was all in the hopes that another Jedi would look after his son in case something happened to Dooku - and who better than his own padawan? Except for one little thing: he couldn't admit to having a son to the Jedi, nor endanger him by letting knowledge leak of him, were he to infiltrate the Dark Side and try to destroy Palpatine. So instead he'd leave a legacy in case he failed - as he was confident that in that event, Qui-Gon would never fail him.

Rogue II
06-18-2003, 01:17 PM
Just out of curiosity, how old was Sir Alec Guiness when they filmed ANH?

JediTricks
06-18-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Rogue II
Just out of curiosity, how old was Sir Alec Guiness when they filmed ANH? 62

Eternal Padawan
06-18-2003, 04:56 PM
Orignally by Tycho
23 when he is presumed dead and becomes Darth Vader
22 when he fathers Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia

Conjecture? SPOILERS?!?! ARRGHH!! STOP THAT! LEAVE THE SPOILER STUFF IN THE SPOILER SECTIONS...

:mad:

Tycho
06-18-2003, 08:46 PM
I hope you're kidding.

I mean TPM was 32 years before ANH,

AOTC was 22 years before ANH.

Luke is presumably 18 in ANH.

For him to be conceived, Padme must be pregnant 19 years before ANH.

Anakin was 19 during AOTC, 22 years before ANH, so it's simple math that 22 - 19 = 3 and 3 +19 (Anakin's age) = 22 (when Luke must be conceived).

Since Padme can't have the babies presumably for 9 months (or 3/4 of the way close to a year), adding one year to 22 makes 23.

UNLESS LUKE AND LEIA WILL NOT BE BORN 18-20 YEARS BEFORE A NEW HOPE, and Luke was actually 17 or younger in Star Wars, and / or unless we never see Darth Vader appear in Episode 3, which would be a bummer, Anakin must be 23 when he becomes Darth Vader.

22 - 19 + 3 + 1 = 24 is a huge spoiler! Don't tell anyone how to do Math!:rolleyes:


Note: I think Eternal Padawan was kidding. I am half-so. I really can't stand the "don't tell me anything (like it'll be called Star Wars Episode 3)" or something anti-spoiler crowd. They're afraid it'll ruin the movie if they know it takes place in outer space.


EDIT: I think I know what Eternal Padawan was talking about

The other stuff about Dooku and his relationships with other very specific characters is conjecture. I think it's a logical way to tell the story and build up Anakin's motivations to turn to the Dark Side. However, if I had a shread of real evidence, I wouldn't post it because then it'd be a spoiler.

We have no rules against speculation or conjecture here. I mean, "I think C-3PO will have speaking lines in the next movie" is conjecture at this point. Thinking we will see the rise of the Empire is also conjecture, because no official spoilers I've read can confirm this. Palpatine might be creating a galactic circus and is ticked because Darth Maul was going to be his star clown. That's all conjecture too. Granted the Empire is highly probable, but it's not a spoiler because it's not a fact, or even a so-called confirmable from one of the spoiler sites like TFN.

When I get any spoilers that either confirm or defy my logic, I'll go over to the spoilers forum and "live there." Right now there's no cause.

But ever since the virgin birth thing, we've been wondering if it was true or not. Since that answer is simply yes or no, the next question is that if it's not true that Anakin was a virgin birth, the next question (and Qui-Gon even asked it in the movie) is "who was his father?"

We can now name a long list of SW characters as possibilities but only a few make sense. I think we can rule out Boss Nass being the kid's natural dad. At one time people thought it would turn out to be Qui-Gon. Now it seems that Dooku and Palpatine are the most likely candidates. But maybe it was Sio Bibble? Well, out of those 3, two of them do something for the making the story even more interesting, the last one really doesn't.

Finally while Palpatine could be the father, and Shmi his Monica-Lewinsky-cover-up, Dooku carries the height, the cloak with the chain, as well as the chance for a tragic death that would affect Anakin, so I think he's more likely or in the classic trilogy Darth Vader would have called Palpy "dad".