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plo koon 200
07-01-2003, 07:49 AM
According to AICN Obi-Wan has an affair with Leia. :) :) :) :) I have thought of a theory and many of you will think it is not realistic but listen. I believe that Leia may be Obi-Wan's daughter. Why? Well, remember that Vader does not know about Leia. Well maybe, actually, Vader does not care about Leia because Leia is not his own. Not to mention, when Luke leaves and Obi-Wan says "that boy is our last hope." Yoda says "no there is another." Perhaps, Obi-Wan did not give Leia, his daughter, as much credit. Perhaps, in Yoda's eyes it may have been neccesary to have an almost ordinary person be the next Jedi and not Luke because Luke may be too much like his father. I have a lot more to say but I have to go to school. I can defend my argument more and I will in about 12 hours. Right now, feel free to react negatively to my post but when the film comes out in 2005 don't say I didn't warn you.

Oh, and it is my birthday today.

MTFBWY. :D :)

Beast
07-01-2003, 07:57 AM
Luke: "Yoda spoke of another."
Obi-Wan: "The other he spoke of was your twin sister."

Note the fact they are twins. Maybe the reason that Luke was the great hope, was that his midiclorian count was higher. Who knows why at this moment that Luke was pegged to be the hope instead of Leia. Vader didn't care about Leia, because he didn't know of her existance until Jedi. Just like he either ignored, or didn't know of Luke's existance until after A New Hope. :D


Vader: A sister? You have a twin sister. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not be turned, then perhaps she will.

Luke: NEVER!!

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Pendo
07-01-2003, 09:06 AM
I would HATE it is Obi-Wan had an affair with Padmé. These rumors came out around Episode I, Episode II so is expected around III. I doubt they are true.

PENDO!

Beast
07-01-2003, 09:12 AM
The Jedi Code basically stomps a hole in the whole love theory anyway. Remeber, for Jedi that love is forbidden. So why would Obi-Wan who is a straight arrow boy scout Jedi, defy the council over something like that. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
07-01-2003, 12:12 PM
According to AICN Obi-Wan has an affair with Leia. :) :) :) :) I have thought of a theory and many of you will think it is not realistic but listen. I believe that Leia may be Obi-Wan's daughter. Why? Well, remember that Vader does not know about Leia. Well maybe, actually, Vader does not care about Leia because Leia is not his own. Not to mention, when Luke leaves and Obi-Wan says "that boy is our last hope." Yoda says "no there is another." Perhaps, Obi-Wan did not give Leia, his daughter, as much credit. Perhaps, in Yoda's eyes it may have been neccesary to have an almost ordinary person be the next Jedi and not Luke because Luke may be too much like his father. I have a lot more to say but I have to go to school. I can defend my argument more and I will in about 12 hours. Right now, feel free to react negatively to my post but when the film comes out in 2005 don't say I didn't warn you.

Oh, and it is my birthday today.

MTFBWY. :D :)

Vader didn't know about Luke either, until after (presumably) his spies learned the identity of the pilot who destroyed the Death Star.

Once Vader hears the last name and puts that piece together with the "Force is strong with this one" comment, in addition to the Old Ben connection, Vader can pretty much definitively conclude that Luke is his son.

And we know that Vader doesn't learn about Leia until ROTJ.

Based on this information, we can safely assume that Vader/Anakin has absolutely no idea that he has children at all until after ANH.

(What I'd like to see is Palpatine sending Anakin out to kill Dooku. Just before he goes, Ani and Padme get it on which results in the conception of the twins. Palpatine engineers events so that Obi Wan is "caught" in a questionable situation with Padme by Anakin. The fight ensues, Anakin's body is hurt, his personality is "killed off" and replaced by the alter-ego Darth Vader, and he never learns about the children-to-be. This scenario makes the most sense given the story that George has set up.)

Of course, we can't know anything for certain until we all see Episode III, and of course George can (and probably will) exercise his right to further alter established continuity, so anything at all is possible at this point. With the new rules of engagement in place, Yoda could even turn out to be the father.

The Overlord Returns
07-01-2003, 12:42 PM
According to AICN Obi-Wan has an affair with Leia.

Dirty old man that Ben kenobi.......



I believe that Leia may be Obi-Wan's daughter.

Ewwwww....an affair with his own daughter.....yikes....

I'll never think of Alec Guinness the same way again.

Pendo
07-01-2003, 12:59 PM
LMAO :crazed:

:p

PENDO!

Jedi_Master_Guyute
07-01-2003, 01:17 PM
Yeah, that's what i want to see: yoda being the father. A nice explicit sex scene w/ yoda and padme gettin' buse' :crazed:

I don't buy it that Obi-Wan is Leia's father. As stated, Obi-Wan is a trude Jedi (true, meaning not going to break the rules) and it would make no sense for him to have an affair with Padme. If this even happens, everthing will go to waste. Might as well have Chewie be Hans father and Mon Mothma be his mother. Once you go Wookie, you'll never go back to the other kind. :D

icatch9
07-01-2003, 03:10 PM
Since you are going to school, perhaps you should stop by the sex ed room and lean how babies are made. For your idea to work it means Luke would have had to be born then the following day or so, Obi Wan and Padme had to have sex to produce Leia. Then in another nine months out pops Leia. That doesn't seem to make much sense to me. In fact I think that is the most ridiculous idea I've ever heard regarding the PT.

The ideas that Anakin will be lead to beleave that Obi Wan and Padme and haveing it on are sound. It's very Shakesperian, so it will be very gut renching. The audeince will of course know the truth the whole time, but the truth will never be let known to Anakin. I'm sure this will come true, so all you PT haters can come out and complain about how Vader didn't say anything to Ben on the first Death Star about why he stole his woman. Just more gas for the fire :D.

stillakid
07-02-2003, 10:35 AM
I'm sure this will come true, so all you PT haters can come out and complain about how Vader didn't say anything to Ben on the first Death Star about why he stole his woman. Just more gas for the fire :D.

Anakin is "gone" by this time. That is the whole setup for the OT films. Obi Wan truly believes Anakin (the personality) to be dead and gone. We suspect that Yoda still might hold hope, but believes it to be true as well. We know that Leia's mother was "sad," which we can extrapolate to mean that something tragic happened. That something most likely was the "death" of Anakin.

Meanwhile, naive hotshot Luke, believes that Anakin can be brought back even though the body is "more machine now than man...twisted and evil." The son saving the father from eternal damnation is a powerful storyline.

So, anyway, when Old Ben and Vader meet, Vader has long since "forgotten" about those old petty concerns of that weakling Anakin. That is, until those uncompromising pangs of fatherhood hit him when he finds out (in-between ANH and ESB) that he actually is a father. He has no idea until then, or at least he shouldn't if George's original continuity is to be followed.

But like I said, George has shown his willingness to throw the C word into the crapper just so the "true fans" can have a vicarious thrill or two, so if indeed Episode III shows Anakin actually knowing about the pregnancy and the children, then yes, ICatch, your conclusion will be true and the OT will once again appear to be incorrect and flawed because of the lack of care in crafting the Prequels. :)

plo koon 200
07-03-2003, 01:38 PM
Since you are going to school, perhaps you should stop by the sex ed room and lean how babies are made. For your idea to work it means Luke would have had to be born then the following day or so, Obi Wan and Padme had to have sex to produce Leia. Then in another nine months out pops Leia. That doesn't seem to make much sense to me. In fact I think that is the most ridiculous idea I've ever heard regarding the PT.
:D.

Not neccesarily true. Luke and Leia are fraternal twins and not identical twins. Perhaps Padme was suducing Obi-Wan behind Anakin's back while they were married. You never know. If Obi-Wan did it with Padme around the same time Anakin did it with her then it could very well be possible that they are both the fathers to her children.

Don't forget that Anakin dosen't have sex (I think) until a year or so into the Clone Wars. Likely, because Anakin has to keep her hidden. During the Clone Wars it could be possible that the Jedi begin to lose some of their moral values and hence Obi-Wan decides... Well, you know.

Also, note that none of the films mention that Vader did not know of Luke until after EIV. Their is a chance that he might know about him since EIII. Anakin may even know of Leia but not count her as his own. Also, note that many people have said EIII is about the breaking down of relationships between Obi-Wan and Anakin. Can you think of any better reason for Anakin to get super PoD at Obi-Wan?

It would also make sense if Obi-Wan was Leia's father because that could explain why she wasn't trained. She wasn't as strong in the force but still strong none the less. Remember that Obi-Wan says "that boy is our last hope." Yoda says, "no, there is another." This could actually imply that Obi-Wan does not consider his own daughter to be worthy enough or strong enough in the force to take down the Emperor.

I would like to mention as well that Vader seems to not care at all about Leia. While some of you may think that Vader did not know about Leia until ROTJ that may not be true because Vader seemed to show no emotional reaction to Luke pondering over his sister. And in response to Vader not searching for Luke until ESB it could very well be argued that Vader did not know when Luke would finally be ready until Obi-Wan came and fought him.

Some of you have thought while reading this, "well, why was Obi-Wan on Tatooine guarding Luke instead of his own daughter?" The reason why would likely be that Obi-wan knew that Luke was important and Vader would not visit Tatooine. It could also be that Obi-Wan did not want to jeopardize his own life and the life of his daughter and so he kept Leia a secret.

I will talk about this more later on. However, this is just a theory right now but should be taken into consideration becuase with Lucas you never know.

MTFBWY

icatch9
07-03-2003, 03:09 PM
I'm sorry that you put so much thought into something that will not and can not happen. I'm not trying to bash you, I appreciate anyone who has ideas and voices them. Still, this is so far out of left feild, you might as well say Capt. Kirk is Leias dad (you know how much Kirk gets around ;)).

This movie isn't going to be My Two Dads you know. I'm not a pregnancy expert, but what your explaining probally cannot happen they way you are thinking. I don't think it can happen at all, but if it could the woman would have to have intercourse one right after another. Something tells me Gorge isn't writeing a porno, so it won't happen. Your reasons for aren't that sound either. I mean, Obi Wan not considering Liea, Vader not knowning about Leia, and so on can certainly be explained in a much more plausable way than Obi Wan knocking boots with Padme moments after she was with Ani.

Again, I appreciate the thought process and the "what if", but I suggest directing your abilities to something that is much more plausable biologicaly as well as realistically.

The Overlord Returns
07-03-2003, 03:33 PM
You can't seriously think she could have twins by two different fathers.......

stillakid
07-03-2003, 04:29 PM
You can't seriously think she could have twins by two different fathers.......


It's for the spinoff sitcom. Watch the hijinx and hilarity ensue. :D

keith koth
07-03-2003, 06:00 PM
I do not think that Obi-Wan being Leia's father is even remotely likely. However, in Plo's defense, a woman can have twins (non-identical, of course!) with different fathers. This rarity occurs as the result of intercourse with 2 different men within a couple of weeks time on an occasion when, durring ovulation, the ovary releases 2 eggs rather than the ordinary occurance of 1. Both children, even if conceived weeks apart, will most likely to be born at the same time; as the induction of labor will birth both children within no more than a few hours of eachother.

Again, I repeat, I do not think that Obi will be Leia's father...but it is biologically possible.

El Chuxter
07-03-2003, 06:15 PM
From Return of the Jedi: The Superfly Mack Daddy Edition

LUKE: Do you remember your father? I mean, your real father?
LEIA: Yeah, he looked like Santa Claus, but always wore brown pajamas. You know, now that I think about it, he reminds me a lot of that guy from Trainspotting

I guess since my post was in quotes, it thinks it's less than ten characters long. :o So I'll agree with the prevailing train of thought and say, "Not possible!" :D

stillakid
07-03-2003, 08:11 PM
I guess since my post was in quotes, it thinks it's less than ten characters long. :o So I'll agree with the prevailing train of thought and say, "Not possible!" :D


Oh good, it wasn't just me. I couldn't create a quote either. What's up with that? :confused:

plo koon 200
07-03-2003, 11:57 PM
I do not think that Obi-Wan being Leia's father is even remotely likely. However, in Plo's defense, a woman can have twins (non-identical, of course!) with different fathers. This rarity occurs as the result of intercourse with 2 different men within a couple of weeks time on an occasion when, durring ovulation, the ovary releases 2 eggs rather than the ordinary occurance of 1. Both children, even if conceived weeks apart, will most likely to be born at the same time; as the induction of labor will birth both children within no more than a few hours of eachother.

Again, I repeat, I do not think that Obi will be Leia's father...but it is biologically possible.

Thank you keith koth.

I would like to note that I was not saying that this was going to happen or that I actually believe it is going to happen. I really just want to get us speculating because that is what being a true fan is all about. Speculating before the film comes out has been common ever since we were kids. For some of us we would play with our toys and act out events that in no way would happen but we had fun. All I really want is for all of us fans to have a fun time and speculate about possibilities, even unlikely ones. I was just making the notion that this may happen. None of us know yet what will happen until the film comes out. Heck, even if we had a script right now we wouldn't know because Lucas changes and cuts out so much. So, lets speculate and have fun.

MTFBWY

CooLJoE
07-05-2003, 11:55 PM
Ok, I didn't read over the whole thread so I'm sorry if I'm repeating anything that anyone else said...


I heard from a good source like 1-2 years ago that Obi-Wan will NOT have an affair with Padme. HOWEVER, to Anakin it will seem as though they did. Basically, Anakin's hate towards Obi-Wan will come from the Palpatine feeding him lies to draw out his hate. One of those lies (and I'm thinking the "last straw") will be that Obi-Wan and Padme were having an affair. And I'm guessing that somehow Anakin will catch them together in an odd moment and will believe its true.

Remember, with Palpatine starting the Empire and having full control, he's going to want a good apprentice to help him. And who better than the Jedi he's been following so closely.

Some may not like this idea, but I think it fits perfect. My source was pretty well on with EP2, so I'm going to believe him.

InsaneJediGirl
07-06-2003, 12:18 AM
Obi-Wan is probably the perfect Jedi,he has always strived to be and always will be.I cannot see him breaking the Code just to fool around with Padme of all people.Especially since the Republic is crumbling,hes not going to have time for much :D

Although possible,I do not see it happening.It would cheapen EIII and Obi-Wan,a character who most(IMO) hold in high reguard as an shining example of the Jedi.

stillakid
07-06-2003, 02:46 PM
Although possible,I do not see it happening.It would cheapen EIII and Obi-Wan,a character who most(IMO) hold in high reguard as an shining example of the Jedi.


I agree with you entirely, however most people still hold on to that silly interpretation of Old Ben's "point of view" speech as evidence that he is a dirty rotten manipulative scheming ratfink liar...a designation that has no support thus far in any of the films. Even The Insider propagates this ridiculous notion. Go figure. :rolleyes:

icatch9
07-07-2003, 09:27 AM
Seeing as how Keith Koth explained the whole double father thing very well, I'll belive it. Still, how many normal everyday movie goers know this is possible? 2-3% of the population maybe. So, that right there is one main and sound reason not to have this in a Star Wars movie. Hell, this realy wouldn't fly in a soap opera wich it would seem to be more like.

I agree that being a Star Wars fan is all about therizing, but things of this nature just aren't worth it. It's so far fetched and so unlikely that it just seems silly.

The Overlord Returns
07-07-2003, 10:15 AM
Wether it's possible or not, it's needlessly complicated.....and the prequels need to get less complicated...not more...

stillakid
07-07-2003, 10:31 AM
Wether it's possible or not, it's needlessly complicated.....and the prequels need to get less complicated...not more...


Maybe Jerry Springer should direct Episode III. ;)

scruffziller
07-07-2003, 11:47 AM
However, in Plo's defense, a woman can have twins (non-identical, of course!) with different fathers. This rarity occurs as the result of intercourse with 2 different men within a couple of weeks time on an occasion when, durring ovulation, the ovary releases 2 eggs rather than the ordinary occurance of 1. Both children, even if conceived weeks apart, will most likely to be born at the same time; as the induction of labor will birth both children within no more than a few hours of eachother.

Again, I repeat, I do not think that Obi will be Leia's father...but it is biologically possible.
Yes that would prove it may be possible but I think this is just another silly rumor that someone started someday ago and is getting a big laugh. Let's not give him/her the pleasure.


Maybe Jerry Springer should direct Episode III. ;)

HEE HEE!!!:D

The Overlord Returns
07-07-2003, 12:37 PM
Maybe Jerry Springer should direct Episode III. ;)

"Today on Star Wars, episode III:

My Wife is sleeping with my Master......and is dating a wookie on the side!"

Rogue II
07-07-2003, 12:53 PM
Maybe Jerry Springer should direct Episode III. ;)

If Ponda Baba was on that show, would he say "Talk to the hand" or "Talk to the hoof?"

Darth Spectre
07-15-2003, 12:04 PM
The idea of Obi-Wan being Leia's father makes so little sense honestly. Like it has been stated over and over, they are twins (Luke & Leia), and there was no doubt in Jedi that Vader was father of them both. Obi-Wan to me is supposed to be the perfect Jedi, so it doubtful he would cross the line with a woman period, let alone his padawan's true love. I do agree Anakin will probably think something has happened or is happening, adding to his slow descent into the darkness.

sith_killer_99
07-15-2003, 12:22 PM
I just don't see Obi-Wan as Leia's father either.

BTW, I don't see Obi-Wan as the great "straight-laced-by-the-numbers" jedi that everyone else seems to think of him as.

This is the same Obi-Wan that impulsively jumps out of a window on Coruscant without any regard for what may happen to him or the fact that his padawan would (yet again) have to rescue him. Remember "You fell into that nightmare Master, and I rescued you." Hahaha he chuckles to himself. It's no wonder Anakin feels he has to rescue Obi-Wan on Geonosis. Anakins hot headed actions and eventual fall to the darkside, are a clear result of Obi-Wans short commings. Just my 2 cents.

Darth Spectre
07-15-2003, 12:32 PM
Yoda's belief in Obi-wan speaks volumes about his character. I think it is WAY too easy to blame Anakin's fall on Obi-Wan. Anakin's faults are his own, based on his late training, his attachment to his mother and being torn from her, and his rashness. Let's not forget Obi-Wan knew Anakin was trouble from the beginning, it was Qui-Gon that saw more in Anakin than most others did. And it is Obi-Wan that knows Anakin's faults better than anyone. After all, he knew Anakin wasn't ready to go off and protect Padme, and he was proven right by Anakin's falling in love with her.

sith_killer_99
07-15-2003, 12:43 PM
I still maintain that Obi-Wan was reckless. Look back at ANH. Obi-Wan tells Luke "He feared you might go off and follow Obi-Wan on some idealistic crusade." Then less than 2 minutes later he's trying to get Luke to follow him on some idealistic crusade.

He was reckless!

Don't forget "Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you, need that, you do not!"

The same defiance Dooku passed on to Qui-Gon was passed to Obi-Wan and down to Anakin, heck he almost reuined Luke, look how close he came to crossing over to the Darkside in ROTJ, if not for Yoda's training... :eek:

Darth Spectre
07-15-2003, 12:52 PM
Obi-Wan did have some defiance in him to start with, but as EP II showed, by that point he had matured greatly. Probably a lot of the reason was because of how difficult it was controlling Anakin, since Anakin's tendency was to do what he felt, not to think things out. I think u are missing a major point though with Luke and Anakin. They are supposed to be essentially the same, with the same faults. Luke just makes the better choices. Part of that is due to his training, but not all of it. And his training was begun by the older, very mature Obi-Wan and then finished by Yoda. You can't forget that Vader repeatedly said to Luke when they met "Obi-Wan has taught you well." Personal responsibility cannot be ignored. If Luke had completely gone over the dark side in ROTJ, would that have made Yoda a horrible master? Look at Dooku in AOTC, does that mean Yoda is not a great Jedi because one student fell? These are things one has to consider.

Imperial Monarche
07-15-2003, 05:50 PM
But like I said, George has shown his willingness to throw the C word into the crapper just so the "true fans" can have a vicarious thrill or two, so if indeed Episode III shows Anakin actually knowing about the pregnancy and the children, then yes, ICatch, your conclusion will be true and the OT will once again appear to be incorrect and flawed because of the lack of care in crafting the Prequels. :)


what if Anakin knows about the pregnancy but he is told Padme is killed or something when in reality she goes into hiding and never knows about the twins actually being born. or, maybe he is led to believe his children are dead or never born. that would make the most sense because, isn't it already common knowledge that the twins are born in Ep. III so she would have to be carrying them throughout the movie. are you saying Anakin never has any screentime with Padme in the entire movie? He'd have to know.

Jedi Clint
07-15-2003, 06:37 PM
what if Anakin knows about the pregnancy but he is told Padme is killed or something when in reality she goes into hiding and never knows about the twins actually being born. or, maybe he is led to believe his children are dead or never born. that would make the most sense because, isn't it already common knowledge that the twins are born in Ep. III so she would have to be carrying them throughout the movie. are you saying Anakin never has any screentime with Padme in the entire movie? He'd have to know.

Hey I.M.,

This is a link to a discussion that took place recently on this very topic as a result of information about Padme's clothing in E3, Natalie Portman's statement regarding Padme's pregnancy in E3, and a scene filmed between Anakin and Padme in the first week of shooting.

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20188

stillakid
07-16-2003, 01:21 AM
what if Anakin knows about the pregnancy but he is told Padme is killed or something when in reality she goes into hiding and never knows about the twins actually being born. or, maybe he is led to believe his children are dead or never born. that would make the most sense because, isn't it already common knowledge that the twins are born in Ep. III so she would have to be carrying them throughout the movie. are you saying Anakin never has any screentime with Padme in the entire movie? He'd have to know.


No, he wouldn't. Were I writing this (and I'm not) I would have Palpatine fool Anakin into believing that Dooku was out to assasinate him (Palpatine). This is the last step in Anakin's seduction to the Dark side. Anyway, Anakin gets this message via hologram or something otherworldly. Sadly, he must leave Padme to "go on a special mission." They get all weepy and proceed to have a love making session. BAM. The kids are conceived, nobody realizes it (yet), Anakin takes off. The next time Padme sees Anakin is when he returns from his successful mission (he kills Dooku), and finds Padme and Obi Wan in a suggestive situation (which is set in motion by Palpatine). Anakin is PO'd, and in his usual irrational bi-polar behavior, runs off in anger and confusion before Padme or Obi can explain.

Obi and Ani meet up some time later to have their duel. Ani appears to die (to the audience...we never see him again...or Vader until Episode IV). Obi returns to Naboo to tell Padme what happened. When he gets there, he finds Yoda has beaten him. He also finds a pregnant Padme (obviously, some time has elapsed). They realize that both Padme and her child (they don't yet realize that it is twins) must be hidden away. Roll credits.

That's the way it should be anyway. George will F it up though. I've come to expect that now. :cry:

Imperial Monarche
07-16-2003, 03:48 PM
No, he wouldn't. Were I writing this (and I'm not) I would have Palpatine fool Anakin into believing that Dooku was out to assasinate him (Palpatine). This is the last step in Anakin's seduction to the Dark side. Anyway, Anakin gets this message via hologram or something otherworldly. Sadly, he must leave Padme to "go on a special mission." They get all weepy and proceed to have a love making session. BAM. The kids are conceived, nobody realizes it (yet), Anakin takes off. The next time Padme sees Anakin is when he returns from his successful mission (he kills Dooku), and finds Padme and Obi Wan in a suggestive situation (which is set in motion by Palpatine). Anakin is PO'd, and in his usual irrational bi-polar behavior, runs off in anger and confusion before Padme or Obi can explain.

Obi and Ani meet up some time later to have their duel. Ani appears to die (to the audience...we never see him again...or Vader until Episode IV). Obi returns to Naboo to tell Padme what happened. When he gets there, he finds Yoda has beaten him. He also finds a pregnant Padme (obviously, some time has elapsed). They realize that both Padme and her child (they don't yet realize that it is twins) must be hidden away. Roll credits.

That's the way it should be anyway. George will F it up though. I've come to expect that now. :cry:

We've had our little scuffles before Stilla, and i just won't even bother commenting on the last sentence you posted cuz it makes you sound like a film critic rather a Star Wars fan, but hey you are welcome to your opinions and look, I said something. I'm sorry.

But, to get back to the subject at hand, how can this movie possibly end without the twins being born. We have to know who Luke is by the beginning of ANH because the conversation between Luke and Owen won't make sense when they are talking about Luke's father who we will know is Anakin, otherwise the audience will be like, who cares. But, if we know who Luke is then it'll be more useful. Don't you think? And then bringing Obi-Wan in a suggestive scene will just mess it up because Obi-Wan would never allow himself to be caught up in a girl, especially after he suspects Anakin to love her. Plus, he'd be breaking the code. No, I think your synopsis is wrong, Stilla, and i do believe out of all the prequals, Lucas will do right on this one, requardless if you felt he has let us down in the past prequals.

stillakid
07-17-2003, 11:11 PM
We've had our little scuffles before Stilla, and i just won't even bother commenting on the last sentence you posted cuz it makes you sound like a film critic rather a Star Wars fan,
Please elaborate on that. Are you suggesting that a Star Wars fan is unable (or incapable) of looking at his/her hobby with a critical and open mind? Or perhaps a fan is defined as only having blind faith in every possible aspect of the topic at hand.

See, I consider myself in many ways to be a bigger fan than most of the Lucas apologists out there primarily because I'm not afraid to be honest about what I see onscreen and elsewhere. I enjoy the concept so much that when I see details that appear to soil it, I'm not against speaking out.

But then again, maybe a "true fan" isn't really interested in seeing things as they really are. You tell me.




But, to get back to the subject at hand, how can this movie possibly end without the twins being born.
Why is Episode III contingent upon this? The audience learns all about the Skywalker children at the proper times in the proper places during the course of the Original Trilogy. Through the careful outlining of events by Lucas, and the thoughtful and expert screenwriting by Willam Huyck, Gloria Katz, and Lawrence Kasdan, the saga proceeded to deliver information in such a way as to provide the proper amounts of intrigue and suspense necessary to create an epic which arguably effected generations of people across the globe.

Now, with Lucas writing solo (primarily because he now refuses to deal with Hollywood film unions, IATSE, DGA, and most importantly, WGA), he has proceeded to muck up his own established continuity because of an ego trip or something. In any case, I fail to see how gratuitously showing the babies being born and then being delivered to their respective planets does anything besides give overzealous "fans" a reason to cheer to themselves. It certainly isn't necessary to tell the story as it dilutes and negates the storytelling process of Episodes IV, V, and VI.


We have to know who Luke is by the beginning of ANH because the conversation between Luke and Owen won't make sense when they are talking about Luke's father who we will know is Anakin, otherwise the audience will be like, who cares.
Huh? Uh, no. Quite the opposite. Somehow, the audience muddled through their ambivalence for over 25 years after shelling out millions and millions of dollars to Lucas. Again, the OT was laid out in a precise manner by professional WGA writers who made the audience care. And, despite your claims to the contrary, we all did understand the conversation that took place in 1977 (through 1980) without the benefit of having seen an Episode III which gratuitously will show the twins being delivered to their respective hiding places.




But, if we know who Luke is then it'll be more useful. Don't you think?
Useful for what? Destroying any semblence of suspense and intrigue? Sure. Why the hell not. Lucas is ready to give away the secret of Vader's identity in the Prequels. Why not give away everything else too?



And then bringing Obi-Wan in a suggestive scene will just mess it up because Obi-Wan would never allow himself to be caught up in a girl,
You missed the point. It's a suggestive scene...to Anakin. No one ever said that Obi Wan would screw Padme. The point was that Palpatine would engineer a situation in which it would appear to Anakin that Padme and Obi were getting it on even though nothing had happened. It would be one of Palpatine's last steps in fully turning Anakin away from the life he was living so that he could have the boy who is chock full o' Midichlorians all to himself.



No, I think your synopsis is wrong, Stilla, and i do believe out of all the prequals, Lucas will do right on this one, requardless if you felt he has let us down in the past prequals.
No, my synopsis of how it should be is correct and is one of the only ways to sort of preserve the shreds of credibility and continuity that are left. As it stands, there is no way that these movies can be viewed in episode order without ruining the surprises and suspense of the originals for a new audience without severe editing, either by completely redoing the Prequels or by slicing and dicing the OT. They are mutually exclusive trilogies at this point in time.

Imperial Monarche
07-18-2003, 12:32 AM
Please elaborate on that. Are you suggesting that a Star Wars fan is unable (or incapable) of looking at his/her hobby with a critical and open mind? Or perhaps a fan is defined as only having blind faith in every possible aspect of the topic at hand.

See, I consider myself in many ways to be a bigger fan than most of the Lucas apologists out there primarily because I'm not afraid to be honest about what I see onscreen and elsewhere. I enjoy the concept so much that when I see details that appear to soil it, I'm not against speaking out.

But then again, maybe a "true fan" isn't really interested in seeing things as they really are. You tell me.

Why is Episode III contingent upon this? The audience learns all about the Skywalker children at the proper times in the proper places during the course of the Original Trilogy. Through the careful outlining of events by Lucas, and the thoughtful and expert screenwriting by Willam Huyck, Gloria Katz, and Lawrence Kasdan, the saga proceeded to deliver information in such a way as to provide the proper amounts of intrigue and suspense necessary to create an epic which arguably effected generations of people across the globe.

Now, with Lucas writing solo (primarily because he now refuses to deal with Hollywood film unions, IATSE, DGA, and most importantly, WGA), he has proceeded to muck up his own established continuity because of an ego trip or something. In any case, I fail to see how gratuitously showing the babies being born and then being delivered to their respective planets does anything besides give overzealous "fans" a reason to cheer to themselves. It certainly isn't necessary to tell the story as it dilutes and negates the storytelling process of Episodes IV, V, and VI.

Huh? Uh, no. Quite the opposite. Somehow, the audience muddled through their ambivalence for over 25 years after shelling out millions and millions of dollars to Lucas. Again, the OT was laid out in a precise manner by professional WGA writers who made the audience care. And, despite your claims to the contrary, we all did understand the conversation that took place in 1977 (through 1980) without the benefit of having seen an Episode III which gratuitously will show the twins being delivered to their respective hiding places.

Useful for what? Destroying any semblence of suspense and intrigue? Sure. Why the hell not. Lucas is ready to give away the secret of Vader's identity in the Prequels. Why not give away everything else too?

You missed the point. It's a suggestive scene...to Anakin. No one ever said that Obi Wan would screw Padme. The point was that Palpatine would engineer a situation in which it would appear to Anakin that Padme and Obi were getting it on even though nothing had happened. It would be one of Palpatine's last steps in fully turning Anakin away from the life he was living so that he could have the boy who is chock full o' Midichlorians all to himself.

No, my synopsis of how it should be is correct and is one of the only ways to sort of preserve the shreds of credibility and continuity that are left. As it stands, there is no way that these movies can be viewed in episode order without ruining the surprises and suspense of the originals for a new audience without severe editing, either by completely redoing the Prequels or by slicing and dicing the OT. They are mutually exclusive trilogies at this point in time.


well, first of all i'd like to offer my apologies. after readin what i said, i did it in a bunch of haste and really didnt have much thought behind it. you were right, i did miss your point completely and after i thought bout it, the suggestive situation to anakin would be perfect. its the best way to set him off on both obi-wan and padme. sorry that i misunderstood. and ur right that lucas does tend to mess up continuity. but, tell me how he has ruined the surprise of Vader's identity? the only way he can do that is if Anakin is shown transforming into Vader's costume. if we think Anakin is dead, then we will still be surprised. however, i still stick on my theory that the twins need to be born because you need that transition into the next episode. if the twins arent shown born, theres no reason to go onto the next chapter. in ep. I, the transition was the rebirth of the Sith that became aparent to the Jedi. in ep II, the clone wars had to come to an end. in ep. III, the twins are born and now we must see their story. in ep. IV, the rebellion struck their first victory leadin to the destruction of the empire, in ep. V, they had to rescue Han. so, i hope u see my reasonin now, even if u dont agree wit me. i agree, my first reasonin bout not wantin to hear Luke's story was kind of weak. my bad. forgive me.
bravo on speakin out bout the things you don't like about star wars, i'd have to say you got more guts than me cuz i think of the stuff, but never want to put it down. the only thing i have to say is that just bout everytime i see i reply from you, you got something negative to say. you picked your avatar well, it really represents your attitude :crazed:

stillakid
07-18-2003, 09:39 AM
but, tell me how he has ruined the surprise of Vader's identity? the only way he can do that is if Anakin is shown transforming into Vader's costume. if we think Anakin is dead, then we will still be surprised.
Exactly. The word on the street is that at the very least we'll hear Vader's voice because James Earl Jones was signed on for Episode III. The other (unconfirmed) scuttlebutt is that Anakin will be prancing around in some sort of "dark" black outfit, somehow reminiscent of the Vader digs. So, yes, you are entirely correct and we are on the same page...the only way to pull off the surprise is to show the fight and leave Anakin there appearing dead, however it looks as though Lucas will tip his hand and show Anakin sometime after that and/or show a brand new character who suspiciously shows up in life support gear after Anakin is terribly wounded. That's what I'm responding to. :)



however, i still stick on my theory that the twins need to be born because you need that transition into the next episode. if the twins arent shown born, theres no reason to go onto the next chapter. in ep. I, the transition was the rebirth of the Sith that became aparent to the Jedi. in ep II, the clone wars had to come to an end. in ep. III, the twins are born and now we must see their story. in ep. IV, the rebellion struck their first victory leadin to the destruction of the empire, in ep. V, they had to rescue Han. so, i hope u see my reasonin now, even if u dont agree wit me. i agree, my first reasonin bout not wantin to hear Luke's story was kind of weak. my bad. forgive me.
I get what you're saying, but seeing the twins at all and then seeing them delivered is just wasted time. All that is necessary to accomplish what you're talking about (rightfully so) is to know that Padme is pregnant. This gets Lucas out of the sticky mess of having to reveal that there are twins and then having to have a scene which explains where they go afterwards. All of that is unnecessary as it is better off explained later on (as it exists now in the OT) and more than that, it is better off not revealed as part of the suspense in the OT revolved around Luke finding out about his own past (and then Leia in turn). Revealing any of this in the Prequels will destroy and negate the well-crafted writing that we all know and love.




bravo on speakin out bout the things you don't like about star wars, i'd have to say you got more guts than me cuz i think of the stuff, but never want to put it down. the only thing i have to say is that just bout everytime i see i reply from you, you got something negative to say. you picked your avatar well, it really represents your attitude :crazed:
You're only remembering the negative and/or only choosing to see the negative. Keep in mind that the vast majority of my comments regarding the film, the Prequels mostly, are done relative to the Original Trilogy. So any "negative" comment has a flipside which is praise for some other aspect of the saga. If I hated the whole thing lock stock and barrel, I wouldn't be here in the first place. No? ;)

But I, like so many other fans (who don't bother to chat on geeky fan sites) were severely let down by The Phantom Menace and then to a degree, AOTC. The rationalizations I've seen here time and time again really aren't representative of the opinions or thoughts I've heard out in the real world. A fan site has a way of condensing mostly the die-hard followers together which puts a kind of skewed outlook on whatever hobby they happen to be talking about. Mostly unmitigated praise is the rule so someone with an alternative outlook really stands out as being a party-pooper.

Call me a "critic," call me a disappointed fan. Whatever. Truth is, I'm both. But I still collect all the toys because of some sick and twisted obsession to have them all. :crazed: ;)

Darth Spectre
07-18-2003, 10:55 AM
The twins need to be born because Luke has to appear on Dagobah before being taken to his Uncle's by Obi-Wan, or else his statement in TESB about Dagobah being or feeling "Strangely familiar" will again be another continuity problem.

Trip J
07-18-2003, 11:27 AM
The twins need to be born because Luke has to appear on Dagobah before being taken to his Uncle's by Obi-Wan, or else his statement in TESB about Dagobah being or feeling "Strangely familiar" will again be another continuity problem.

I don't know that the line is so significant that we have to have Luke show up there as a baby. He also said "It's like something out of a dream." I agree that this will probably happen, but I don't think that it has to, even for continuity reasons. The familiarity he feels could be some connection to Yoda who has looked in on him his whole life (presumably from Dagobah). Possessing so much Force potential, Luke may have picked up on feelings from Yoda's experiences on Dagobah without necessarily knowing what they were or what significance they had.

Darth Spectre
07-18-2003, 11:32 AM
I don't know that the line is so significant that we have to have Luke show up there as a baby. He also said "It's like something out of a dream." I agree that this will probably happen, but I don't think that it has to, even for continuity reasons. The familiarity he feels could be some connection to Yoda who has looked in on him his whole life (presumably from Dagobah). Possessing so much Force potential, Luke may have picked up on feelings from Yoda's experiences on Dagobah without necessarily knowing what they were or what significance they had.

Usually things are less foggy in the Star Wars way of talking than maybe in real life. I think (as you do) that Luke will be on Dagobah at one pt to make his statement literal. And the dream may simpy refer to the fact that he had memories of Dagobah as an infant and dreamed about it at one pt as a small child.

Trip J
07-18-2003, 11:40 AM
Spectre,

You're absolutely right. I think, when it comes down to it, that's my issue with the Prequels in general. Every little item in the OT doesn't have to be explained. Some things can (and probably should) be left unsaid.

To me, it takes a little bit of the fun out of it. :(

stillakid
07-19-2003, 01:33 AM
The twins need to be born because Luke has to appear on Dagobah before being taken to his Uncle's by Obi-Wan, or else his statement in TESB about Dagobah being or feeling "Strangely familiar" will again be another continuity problem.

:confused: Continuity error? Him saying that in ESB does not mean in the slightest that he'd ever been there before. More than likely, the statement was written to refer to the "suggestion" implanted by Obi Wan or something like that.

Darth Spectre
07-19-2003, 02:44 AM
:confused: Continuity error? Him saying that in ESB does not mean in the slightest that he'd ever been there before. More than likely, the statement was written to refer to the "suggestion" implanted by Obi Wan or something like that.

I disagree completely with that. Obi-Wan and Luke never even talked about Dagobah other than the apparition appearance that told him to go there. Words, promises: they all mean something in Star Wars. So if Luke said it seemed familiar, then I am very, very confident Episode III will show him there on Dagobah briefly. Does it have to be that way? No, probably not. But based on Lucas' way of doing things, I would bet that is how it will turn out.

stillakid
07-19-2003, 09:16 AM
I disagree completely with that. Obi-Wan and Luke never even talked about Dagobah other than the apparition appearance that told him to go there. Words, promises: they all mean something in Star Wars. So if Luke said it seemed familiar, then I am very, very confident Episode III will show him there on Dagobah briefly. Does it have to be that way? No, probably not. But based on Lucas' way of doing things, I would bet that is how it will turn out.

True, Lucas would do something like that. But you're suggesting that a one-month old baby is going to "remember" being on Dagobah? Even for Lucas, that's a stretch. Besides, what in the storyline would possibly motivate anyone taking the baby to Dagobah? That planet, most likely, is just a random one that Yoda found after the purge. Too much importance is being laid upon it, I think.

Darth Spectre
07-19-2003, 04:23 PM
It might not be a stretch for someone that naturally strong in the Force. And it might not be anymore of a stretch than Leia having brief memories of her real mother. And it also makes sense for Luke to be on Dagobah if Obi-Wan stops to see Yoda before heading directly to Tatooine.

plo koon 200
07-19-2003, 05:27 PM
There is no error continuity error in that scene. It does not need to see any light in EIII.

The 'Xir
07-19-2003, 06:12 PM
I haven't read any of the posts on this thread, because I can tell you right now, "There is no way in hell this is gonna happen!".

Darth Spectre
07-19-2003, 06:50 PM
There is no error continuity error in that scene. It does not need to see any light in EIII.


Maybe it wouldn't be an error in continuity, but even it doesn't need to see the light of day, I am sure it is going to anyway.

stillakid
07-20-2003, 12:10 PM
It might not be a stretch for someone that naturally strong in the Force. And it might not be anymore of a stretch than Leia having brief memories of her real mother. And it also makes sense for Luke to be on Dagobah if Obi-Wan stops to see Yoda before heading directly to Tatooine.

You're assuming that Yoda has set up shop on Dagobah in that time. Plus, you're still assuming that an infant would somehow register where he was somehow and remember it 20 odd years later.

Sttttrrrrreeeeeetttttttttttttcccccccccccccchhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhh......

Assuming Luke is dropped off very early on and Leia stays with Padme into her toddler years, Leia's memories aren't a problem at all.

Darth Spectre
07-20-2003, 04:42 PM
You're assuming that Yoda has set up shop on Dagobah in that time. Plus, you're still assuming that an infant would somehow register where he was somehow and remember it 20 odd years later.

Sttttrrrrreeeeeetttttttttttttcccccccccccccchhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhh......

Assuming Luke is dropped off very early on and Leia stays with Padme into her toddler years, Leia's memories aren't a problem at all.


Yes, that is assuming Leia stays with Padme that long, which to me is more of a stretch than my Dagobah theory. Yoda is likely to have set shop on Dagobah before Obi-Wan went into exile, because it wouldn't make a lot of sense for the two most important surviving Jedi, who are supposed to be in hiding, to keep communicating with each other. And I would agree that if we were talking about life, our abilities, that having memories from infancy would be a stretch. But we aren't talking that. We are talking about a different world, with different powers and abilities. I could be proven wrong, but Luke being on Dagobah is one of the things about EP III that I feel the most strongly about, as in, that it is likely to happen. ; )

stillakid
07-21-2003, 01:13 AM
Yes, that is assuming Leia stays with Padme that long, which to me is more of a stretch than my Dagobah theory. Yoda is likely to have set shop on Dagobah before Obi-Wan went into exile, because it wouldn't make a lot of sense for the two most important surviving Jedi, who are supposed to be in hiding, to keep communicating with each other. And I would agree that if we were talking about life, our abilities, that having memories from infancy would be a stretch. But we aren't talking that. We are talking about a different world, with different powers and abilities. I could be proven wrong, but Luke being on Dagobah is one of the things about EP III that I feel the most strongly about, as in, that it is likely to happen. ; )

Well first off, we know that Leia stayed with Padme long enough in order to have some kind of "feeling" memories, which would imply that she was at least 3 years or more. That is, if Lucas keeps that continuity from the OT (as he casually tosses out other stuff.)

Second, there is nothing to suggest that Yoda will go into hiding well before Obi Wan does. Chances are just as good that they shake hands at the end of Ep III and head off into the sunset at the same time.

Third, Sci Fi geekdom has always had a special corner for the magical elves and fairies. But aside from "the Force" which is really nothing more than telekinetic power with a little mind reading tossed in barely registers in that crazy "different world" that you imply. The OT was built on strong [I] people, not whacked out dragons, ogres, and fairy dust. So the idea that a baby could remember anything at all just doesn't fit into this galaxy of Star Wars.

On the other hand, as stated, George could toss in the useless gratuitous shot of Dagobah along with the complete history of the asteroid monster as well just because he has his mind set on giving the life histories of every element of the OT.

Jaff
07-21-2003, 02:45 AM
I have a strong guess that Padme will have the twins after Anakin is turned and he will be ordered by Yoda to protect her and the new twins. Thus vader does not even know what sex or how many children she had. Yoda seeing the future will know that the Jedi days are over orders Kenobi to flee with the children. He will probably say a line like "They are our new hope now" or something like that worded differently. So they will split up, and during their journey to wherever, probably Alderan through Bail Organa. Somehow on the way jedi hunters/vader/or just plain troops will come looking for some jedi that's been spotted going to Alderan. Thinking that they are going to get captured they agree to split up each with one child so that if one dies the other will survive with one of the children. Ben gets the boy. Ben will flee to Tatooine in the but end of space knowing that noone, especially Anakin will check there. i say anakin won't because it reminds him of his mother and his failures.

Darth Spectre
07-21-2003, 11:45 AM
Well first off, we know that Leia stayed with Padme long enough in order to have some kind of "feeling" memories, which would imply that she was at least 3 years or more. That is, if Lucas keeps that continuity from the OT (as he casually tosses out other stuff.)

Second, there is nothing to suggest that Yoda will go into hiding well before Obi Wan does. Chances are just as good that they shake hands at the end of Ep III and head off into the sunset at the same time.

Third, Sci Fi geekdom has always had a special corner for the magical elves and fairies. But aside from "the Force" which is really nothing more than telekinetic power with a little mind reading tossed in barely registers in that crazy "different world" that you imply. The OT was built on strong [I] people, not whacked out dragons, ogres, and fairy dust. So the idea that a baby could remember anything at all just doesn't fit into this galaxy of Star Wars.

On the other hand, as stated, George could toss in the useless gratuitous shot of Dagobah along with the complete history of the asteroid monster as well just because he has his mind set on giving the life histories of every element of the OT.


I never said Yoda would go into hiding WELL before Obi-Wan does. I actually only used the term "setting up shop" because you had in a previous post. It is possible that Obi-Wan (with Luke) and Yoda arrive on Dagobah together with only Yoda remaining behind.

We know Leia has memories of her real mother. We DON't know how long she knew her and what age her memories are from. That is an assumption on your part, again, based on what is possible in our world and our society. Considering Luke is the son of the Chosen One, and someone who was able to absorb Jedi training in such a compact amount of time (first from Ben, then from Yoda), I don't see why it is hard for you to "imagine" that he could have impressions from a strange place that resurfaced only after returning there years later.

I understand what are you saying about what doesn't seem to belong or go with the trilogy though. I really thought that about the whole Vader redemption thing to begin with for the longest time. Since here was a man who betrayed his best friend/teacher/father figure, helped wipe out all his brothers in arms, and then comes back just because of a son he never knew he had and only had interacted with for a few hours? I accept it more now, but that is something that seemed pretty far fetched originally too.

stillakid
07-21-2003, 06:22 PM
I understand what are you saying about what doesn't seem to belong or go with the trilogy though. I really thought that about the whole Vader redemption thing to begin with for the longest time. Since here was a man who betrayed his best friend/teacher/father figure, helped wipe out all his brothers in arms, and then comes back just because of a son he never knew he had and only had interacted with for a few hours? I accept it more now, but that is something that seemed pretty far fetched originally too.

Here you've touched on one of the most important and significant reasons why it would be an utter travesty for Anakin to know about the kids during the Prequels. It is precisely because of the timetable, that he doesn't find out about Luke's existence until after Episode IV, that this information from out of left field hits him upside the head. Now, as you say, he's been hacking his enemies left and right for quite some time, but something like facing your own mortality by finding out about offspring can be very very influential. These are the "people" aspects of the story which allowed audiences the world over to enjoy the films so much. While the production design and the fanciful stuff is cool, it is the characters who must be drawn to be like us which make a story into something we can empathize with. (This is also why Midichlorians were met with a collective "Huh!?")

So, still, no...a baby Luke shouldn't be expected to "remember" a brief trip (for what reason, by the way?) to a random jungle planet some 20+ years hence. It just isn't something that is possible for us to comprehend.

Darth Spectre
07-21-2003, 11:26 PM
Here you've touched on one of the most important and significant reasons why it would be an utter travesty for Anakin to know about the kids during the Prequels. It is precisely because of the timetable, that he doesn't find out about Luke's existence until after Episode IV, that this information from out of left field hits him upside the head. Now, as you say, he's been hacking his enemies left and right for quite some time, but something like facing your own mortality by finding out about offspring can be very very influential. These are the "people" aspects of the story which allowed audiences the world over to enjoy the films so much. While the production design and the fanciful stuff is cool, it is the characters who must be drawn to be like us which make a story into something we can empathize with. (This is also why Midichlorians were met with a collective "Huh!?")

So, still, no...a baby Luke shouldn't be expected to "remember" a brief trip (for what reason, by the way?) to a random jungle planet some 20+ years hence. It just isn't something that is possible for us to comprehend.


And not just the mortality aspect. It is the fact that he sees himself in Luke and vice versa. He sees what he was, and also, what he could have been had he not fallen.

And I know we are not gonna see eye to eye on the Dagobah thing...LOL. But, since I am posting...LOL The reason for Luke to be on Dagobah would be simple: Obi-Wan was taking him to the Lars', but stopped to either see or drop Yoda off on Dagobah before leaving. It may not happen, you may not think it necessary or relevant, but it could happen without being a major stretch. ; )

stillakid
07-22-2003, 12:46 AM
The reason for Luke to be on Dagobah would be simple: Obi-Wan was taking him to the Lars', but stopped to either see or drop Yoda off on Dagobah before leaving. It may not happen, you may not think it necessary or relevant, but it could happen without being a major stretch. ; )

What, like a potty break? ;)

Darth Spectre
07-22-2003, 02:16 AM
What, like a potty break? ;)


Uh, no. More like, "We are the two most powerful Jedi left and we need to agree on a strategy to try and ensure our last hope (Luke) has the best chance to live, grow and defeat the Emperor. Especially since we won't be seeing each other again for at least 20 years." More like that kind of a stop. The potty line was cute though...LOL

stillakid
07-23-2003, 12:12 AM
Uh, no. More like, "We are the two most powerful Jedi left and we need to agree on a strategy to try and ensure our last hope (Luke) has the best chance to live, grow and defeat the Emperor. Especially since we won't be seeing each other again for at least 20 years." More like that kind of a stop. The potty line was cute though...LOL

So why would they have this conversation there? Makes no sense. Unless you plan on having Obi Wan steal lil' Luke away from Padme in the still of the night, that is.

Uh uh. That kind of conversation you suggest only makes sense in the context of Padme's home, with the newborns. At that time, some discussion would/will take place amongst all of them where they realize that baby Luke, if discovered, might be slaughtered outright by Palpatines forces. (Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if they whip out a handy-dandy Midichlorian counter to check ol' lil' Luke's Midi count...shoot me now).

Anyhow, this Dagaboh excursion you hope to see just makes no practical sense beyond being yet another useless gratituitous inclusion by George in order to tie absolutely everything together into a mindlessly tight little bow.

Darth Spectre
07-23-2003, 01:51 AM
So why would they have this conversation there? Makes no sense. Unless you plan on having Obi Wan steal lil' Luke away from Padme in the still of the night, that is.

Uh uh. That kind of conversation you suggest only makes sense in the context of Padme's home, with the newborns. At that time, some discussion would/will take place amongst all of them where they realize that baby Luke, if discovered, might be slaughtered outright by Palpatines forces. (Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if they whip out a handy-dandy Midichlorian counter to check ol' lil' Luke's Midi count...shoot me now).

Anyhow, this Dagaboh excursion you hope to see just makes no practical sense beyond being yet another useless gratituitous inclusion by George in order to tie absolutely everything together into a mindlessly tight little bow.


We don't even know how long Padme will be alive, so to make it sound like Obi-Wan couldn't have Luke in his charge already before heading into exile hastily doesn't ring true. We know Yoda has to end up on Dagobah, so I can't see how having Obi-Wan and Yoda have their final conversation there makes no sense to you. And if we assume Padme would have her children on Naboo not on Coruscant (which is the place to have them if she is trying to hide the pregnancy), then it is Yoda and Obi-Wan being there, having that conversation you mentioned above, that is a stretch. Mainly because Yoda would have no reason to go to Naboo other than that (and that also could make Palpatine suspicious if Yoda suddenly leaves Coruscant). At least we know Yoda has to end up on Dagobah. It is just possible for him to end up in a pow-wow on Naboo, though of course it is possible it could be a hologram/holograph type of consultation.

And god, I don't even want to think about midichlorians ever again. How ridiculous was that idea. LOL

stillakid
07-23-2003, 10:25 AM
We don't even know how long Padme will be alive, so to make it sound like Obi-Wan couldn't have Luke in his charge already before heading into exile hastily doesn't ring true. We know Yoda has to end up on Dagobah, so I can't see how having Obi-Wan and Yoda have their final conversation there makes no sense to you. And if we assume Padme would have her children on Naboo not on Coruscant (which is the place to have them if she is trying to hide the pregnancy), then it is Yoda and Obi-Wan being there, having that conversation you mentioned above, that is a stretch. Mainly because Yoda would have no reason to go to Naboo other than that (and that also could make Palpatine suspicious if Yoda suddenly leaves Coruscant). At least we know Yoda has to end up on Dagobah. It is just possible for him to end up in a pow-wow on Naboo, though of course it is possible it could be a hologram/holograph type of consultation.

And god, I don't even want to think about midichlorians ever again. How ridiculous was that idea. LOL


First, just because Dagobah was in the OT, doesn't mean we have to see it in the Prequels. That being said, it could play like this:

With his nefarious plan coming into fruition, Palpatine's use for Count Dooku has grown cold. Putting on his best "disappointed" face that he's so good at, Palpatine sends a message to young Anakin who is still on Naboo. It seems, Palpatine tells him, that Dooku is out to assassinate the Chancellor. Continuing the ego stroking, Palpatine pleads with Anakin to go find Dooku and take care of this little problem. Not only is Anakin more than happy to please Palpatine (the only one who sees his potential), this is also a chance to exact revenge.

Anakin goes to the other room to tell Padme that he's leaving on a "secret mission" for the Chancellor. They make love (which, know one knows about for a while, results in the conception of the twins).

(stuff happens here which I won't go into)...

Everything has gone to hell in a handbasket. The Jedi Temple is blown to smithereens, Mace Windu has gone down in a dramatic and symbolic way, and Palpatine in now wearing some kind of dark cloak in public. With Obi Wan out searching for Anakin somewhere (the fight, etc), Yoda escapes Coruscant with little more than his life and heads for Naboo where he thinks his young Jedi might be.

(this is all offscreen...) When he gets there, he finds no Jedi, but he discovers that Padme is pregnant He realizes the potential for the children as well as the danger that they might be in should Palpatine find out (Yoda has since discovered Palpatines dirty little identity secret).

(the rest of this is onscreen) Obi Wan shows up with the bad news about Anakin. He learns about the twins, there is a short discussion about their future and they all look wistfully into the sunset. Roll credits.

That's how it should be done. However, it won't. :(

Darth Spectre
07-23-2003, 10:43 AM
First, just because Dagobah was in the OT, doesn't mean we have to see it in the Prequels. That being said, it could play like this:

With his nefarious plan coming into fruition, Palpatine's use for Count Dooku has grown cold. Putting on his best "disappointed" face that he's so good at, Palpatine sends a message to young Anakin who is still on Naboo. It seems, Palpatine tells him, that Dooku is out to assassinate the Chancellor. Continuing the ego stroking, Palpatine pleads with Anakin to go find Dooku and take care of this little problem. Not only is Anakin more than happy to please Palpatine (the only one who sees his potential), this is also a chance to exact revenge.

Anakin goes to the other room to tell Padme that he's leaving on a "secret mission" for the Chancellor. They make love (which, know one knows about for a while, results in the conception of the twins).

(stuff happens here which I won't go into)...

Everything has gone to hell in a handbasket. The Jedi Temple is blown to smithereens, Mace Windu has gone down in a dramatic and symbolic way, and Palpatine in now wearing some kind of dark cloak in public. With Obi Wan out searching for Anakin somewhere (the fight, etc), Yoda escapes Coruscant with little more than his life and heads for Naboo where he thinks his young Jedi might be.

(this is all offscreen...) When he gets there, he finds no Jedi, but he discovers that Padme is pregnant He realizes the potential for the children as well as the danger that they might be in should Palpatine find out (Yoda has since discovered Palpatines dirty little identity secret).

(the rest of this is onscreen) Obi Wan shows up with the bad news about Anakin. He learns about the twins, there is a short discussion about their future and they all look wistfully into the sunset. Roll credits.

That's how it should be done. However, it won't. :(


The only part of that I disagree with his is the Yoda part unfortunately. It symbolically makes more sense for Obi-Wan to be more instrumental in finding/hinding the twins, continuing the idea that he failed with Anakin but will eventually succeed with Luke. I think it will also be interesting to see if it is Yoda or Obi-Wan who discovers the truth about Palpatine first.

stillakid
07-23-2003, 11:34 AM
The only part of that I disagree with his is the Yoda part unfortunately. It symbolically makes more sense for Obi-Wan to be more instrumental in finding/hinding the twins, continuing the idea that he failed with Anakin but will eventually succeed with Luke. I think it will also be interesting to see if it is Yoda or Obi-Wan who discovers the truth about Palpatine first.


Well, since we're (I, anyway) dreaming about a screenplay that will never be, I would integrate your suggestion by having Obi Wan find out about the pregnancy when he first is off looking for Anakin. See, I'd like it if Obi Wan was sent to get Anakin for some other task and happened upon Padme on Naboo instead. It is there that she tells him about the Palpatine/kill Dooku mission. But there is something else...she begs Obi Wan to help Anakin before he gets hurt. Why? Because she is with child! :eek: Now, with this information, his need to find Anakin is critical. PLUS, when they do fight, it makes his need to "save" Anakin from himself (from the darkside) even that much more important. Of course, Anakin is too far gone at that point and Obi Wan has no choice but to dispatch his young stray.

So then, Obi Wan returns to Naboo to tell Padme what happened where he is surprised to find Yoda. Yoda fills Obi in about the Jedi Temple, etc. they realize that they are both in peril and need to hide out indefinitely. They also realize the danger that Padme and the baby (they don't know yet) are in so they too must be hidden away.

All the birth and hiding stuff can and should happen offscreen between Episodes III and IV. Everything we need to know about that part of it is more than adequately covered in the OT. Showing any of it will be overly gratuitous and will only be there to feed the desires of die-hard fanboys (just like showing Anakin/Vader marauding across the screen :rolleyes: )

As far as the discovery of Palpatine goes, who knows. I suspect that Mace Windu will be instrumental in uncovering the subterfuge, but in the end, it's such a small storypoint that it doesn't really matter how it happens.

Darth Spectre
07-23-2003, 11:50 AM
Well, since we're (I, anyway) dreaming about a screenplay that will never be, I would integrate your suggestion by having Obi Wan find out about the pregnancy when he first is off looking for Anakin. See, I'd like it if Obi Wan was sent to get Anakin for some other task and happened upon Padme on Naboo instead. It is there that she tells him about the Palpatine/kill Dooku mission. But there is something else...she begs Obi Wan to help Anakin before he gets hurt. Why? Because she is with child! :eek: Now, with this information, his need to find Anakin is critical. PLUS, when they do fight, it makes his need to "save" Anakin from himself (from the darkside) even that much more important. Of course, Anakin is too far gone at that point and Obi Wan has no choice but to dispatch his young stray.

So then, Obi Wan returns to Naboo to tell Padme what happened where he is surprised to find Yoda. Yoda fills Obi in about the Jedi Temple, etc. they realize that they are both in peril and need to hide out indefinitely. They also realize the danger that Padme and the baby (they don't know yet) are in so they too must be hidden away.

All the birth and hiding stuff can and should happen offscreen between Episodes III and IV. Everything we need to know about that part of it is more than adequately covered in the OT. Showing any of it will be overly gratuitous and will only be there to feed the desires of die-hard fanboys (just like showing Anakin/Vader marauding across the screen :rolleyes: )

As far as the discovery of Palpatine goes, who knows. I suspect that Mace Windu will be instrumental in uncovering the subterfuge, but in the end, it's such a small storypoint that it doesn't really matter how it happens.


Your ideas are very good. Who discovers Palpatine is interesting only because one can make a case for many different people stumbling upon it, maybe even Padme herself somehow (even if she is unable to entirely comprehend what she has found, she could see/hear something that leads to another unraveling it completely). And how it is found out could be interesting, since one of the main characters seeing through the veil of the Sith is more powerful than Palpatine just whipping out the black cloak one day and saying "Yep, it's me!" LOL

The Overlord Returns
07-23-2003, 01:18 PM
I'd be willing to wager money that it's ObiWan that cracks the Palpatine mystery open.....

Darth Spectre
07-23-2003, 03:12 PM
I'd be willing to wager money that it's ObiWan that cracks the Palpatine mystery open.....

I would tend to agree. I think it will be Obi-Wan as well.

stillakid
07-23-2003, 05:47 PM
I'd be willing to wager money that it's ObiWan that cracks the Palpatine mystery open.....


You're ruling out Geraldo Rivera? :D

plo koon 200
08-15-2003, 10:42 PM
On the last McCallum chat, it seems as if McCallum may have hinted that Obi/Ani/Amidala have a love triangle. If this is so....


I think I have already said enough.

Jedi Clint
08-15-2003, 11:22 PM
He said some people think that. I don't know if I'd call that a hint.

gtrain29
08-18-2003, 04:55 PM
My two cents on what everyone's posted so far:

I think it would be great if Anikin knew about Padme being pregnant, but then something happens to make him think she was killed. He could then have more fuel to turn to the dark side and blame the jedi for his wife and unborn child(ren)s deaths.
Then in Ep IV when he sees Luke is alive and grown the whole father/son thing that you guys discussed starts to click -- and even moreso in Ep VI when he also learns that he had a daughter who is alive and well, too.

Now who says Luke has to have memories of dagobah to say it is familiar? I've been to plenty of places that seemed similar to other places. All he has to say is "there's something familiar about this place." and we, the audience will get the joke because maybe he was there as an infant.
If we take what we learned from the OT, then Obi-Wan may not know about Leia. So maybe Yoda is the only one present at the birth of the twins. He tells Padme to go to alderaan with Bail, and takes Luke to Dagobah himself. Later, (maybe much later if it matters for luke to have memories) Obi-Wan, fleeing the jedi purge stops by to see Yoda one last time and takes Luke to be raised by Owen & Beru where they feel he'll be safest.

The Overlord Returns
08-18-2003, 05:04 PM
On the last McCallum chat, it seems as if McCallum may have hinted that Obi/Ani/Amidala have a love triangle. If this is so....


I think I have already said enough.

Anakin - Othello
Padme - Desdemona
Obi Wan - Cassio
Palpatine - Iago

It can work...if it is a play on the Othello story.....

Besides......the OT bears some resemblance to Hamlet, and other shakespeare work....