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JediTricks
07-11-2003, 06:23 PM
In ANH, Lucas is often able to create character depth with minimal exposition, just having them say a few quick sentences or a glance or whatever often explains who they are and how they feel about things in the film. But this can sometimes lead to alternate interpretations of a character's motivations or feelings, such as with Ep I where the script suggests Watto's character is routinely physically abusive to Anakin by having Anakin flinch when Watto first says something to him -- this element made it to the screen in a very small way, but it didn't really show through that hard, I missed it entirely on my first few viewings and thought that Watto was somewhat friendly with Anakin considering the relationship (I still do even after I read the script because of how I first interpretted it in the film).

I bring that up because in ANH, Owen Lars isn't given a lot of screentime, and most of what he is given doesn't seem to be all that nice to Luke, yet he still comes off as a father figure who is grumpy but genuinely cares about his nephew and imbues similar feelings in the boy. But it could be interpretted that Owen is a selfish, crotchety old man who is holding Luke back simply for the cheap labor - it's highly unlikely to be sure, but not impossible. So, my question is, does Owen love and care about his nephew or not, and is there enough on-screen evidence to support either conclusion?

Kidhuman
07-11-2003, 08:47 PM
I think he does care for him, thats why he treats him that way. He knows what happened to Anakin and doesnt want that to happen to Luke. Luke always seemed to be "daydreaming" and Owen just kept on top of him to get his work done. He knew what would happen to him. He wanted to shield him from all of it. He raised Luke from a boy and was his dad basically. All he was doing was protecting him IMO.

Exhaust Port
07-11-2003, 11:17 PM
I think he's taking some of his personal aggression towards how he was treated by the Empire out against Luke. Lars most likely attributes the loss of Shmi and his fathers downward spiral to the Empires involvment and Anakin's turn to the darkside. He probably feels if you stick your neck out that people will find you and come down hard on you. Better to stay a hidden moisture farmer than do much of anything to draw attention to yourself. Heck, he won't even let Luke go out very much.

Tough love? Perhaps. I think Lars is just scared to make himself an object of attention. He knows Luke has some suitors out there in the Galaxy. They come looking for him and they'll cause he and his wife trouble. Boy was he right.

stillakid
07-12-2003, 02:05 AM
No, Owen really cares about Luke's well-being. The gruff portion of his personality is just part of who he is. For anyone who has lived on or near a farm community, you'll recognize that guy immediately. They are no-nonsense, down to earth people. You'll never catch them eating froo froo dishes at the Ivy if they ever had the chance. A good pot luck buffet and two heaping dishes of stick-to-your-ribs food is good by them.

So, yeah, being that Owen isn't really Luke's uncle (by the old continuity), he still genuinely cares about Luke's well-being and is genuinely concerned about his future, given what his brother Obi Wan told him about Luke's father and all. It's only natural. Owen may be gruff, but he's a good salt of the earth guy.

(This also is a big reason why Luke, originally, was designed as a character we could empathize with. Like Owen, we could see ourselves in him as youths stuck at home with big dreams, but fear of leaving the nest. That is, until Lucas turned him SuperHuman with a heavy dose of parasitical Midichlorians.)



You'll notice that I answered that question with the original backstory in mind, as it should be. I think that the rewrite of the background for the Prequels puts some odd facets into the entire concept. We'll have to wait to see how Lucas writes himself out of the corner he's placed himself into before this question can be accurately discussed with the super-nifty continuity in place.

InsaneJediGirl
07-13-2003, 10:11 PM
Owen has Lukes best interests in mind,and I believe he does care for the boy.Although he was tough on Luke,making sure he stayed atop his work and kept him from entering the piloting academy,Owen probably didnt want him to turn out like Vader.Or perhaps he thought Luke as still too young to leave Tatooine and do such things.I agree with Stillakid on the point he is a 'down to earth' guy,not one for mincing words.

JediTricks
07-13-2003, 11:24 PM
EP, I'm afraid I don't buy your theory about Owen taking his hatred of the Empire out on Luke, I not only don't see that in his actions, but the evidence you site didn't exist at the time of the movie.


I also think Owen loves his nephew, but I can't think of much strong on-screen evidence to support this conclusion. That's where I think the issue of this thread is, we might all feel that way towards Owen, but like with Watto, are we seeing something that is more about insufficient or inaccurate assumption than what we actually see?

Exhaust Port
07-14-2003, 12:15 AM
EP, I'm afraid I don't buy your theory about Owen taking his hatred of the Empire out on Luke, I not only don't see that in his actions, but the evidence you site didn't exist at the time of the movie.

The fact that Owen has repeatedly kept Luke from going to the academy for several seasons with some lame excuses shows he's against Luke getting involved. He also lies if you will to keep Luke from getting involved with Obi Wan who he knows is a big hater of the Empire. With R2D2 being a possible connection to both Obi Wan and his involvement with the Empire, Owen makes a rash decision to have the droids memory erased. It's an astromech for crying out loud, yet he's so paranoid that he wants it's memory erased.

Why else would either be so interested in keeping Luke away from the Academy, Old Ben and the possible memories of an astromech? Sure at the time of the OT we were unaware of Owen's motivation for his actions/inactions but now that the PT has hit the screens we are aware of his involvement prior to the first time we met him in the OT. Even without the PT backstory I always thought there was some reason that Owen kept Luke grounded on Tatoonine. Luke has some obvious frustration issues with his Uncle repeatedly crushing his dreams. It's selfish on Owens part and driven by his own insecurities.

Sure Owen cares for Luke but it seems to me that his actions are driven by his own paranoia not for his concern for Luke.

stillakid
07-14-2003, 08:34 AM
but now that the PT has hit the screens we are aware of his involvement prior to the first time we met him in the OT.
What "involvement"? Owen is just another young farmhand just like any you might find here on Earth. Does his work, and before he had his nads tied by getting a girlfriend, probably took the pickup down to the Anchorhead bar on Friday's like everyone else. The matters of the Republic didn't effect Tatooine then and later on, only a scant few Stormtroopers ever bothered to make any visits.


Even without the PT backstory I always thought there was some reason that Owen kept Luke grounded on Tatoonine. Luke has some obvious frustration issues with his Uncle repeatedly crushing his dreams. It's selfish on Owens part and driven by his own insecurities.

Sure Owen cares for Luke but it seems to me that his actions are driven by his own paranoia not for his concern for Luke.
Especially without the PT backstory (which still makes little sense), Owen is just a regular guy who is concerned about this kid he has raised since he was just a tiny little pup. There's no "paranonoia." Plain and simple: Owen's brother drops off some baby with this horror story attached. The kid must remain hidden, at least until he is old enough and able enough to defend himself if the Empire comes a'knockin'. Owen, being a very practical and rational fella', comes to realize that Obi Wan was really responsible for dragging the Skywalker family into this mess in the first place (because Obi Wan was supposed to have been the one to find Anakin, recognize his potential, and then decide to train him as a Jedi...). "He's just a crazy old man..." Owen tells Luke. On one hand, Owen is trying to dissuade Luke from placing any credibility in R2's story. On the other, Owen has lost respect for his brother and blames him and his crazy "religion" for causing so much trouble in the galaxy. Owen recognizes Luke's ambitions to get out of town, just like a regular teenager, but uses whatever he can to keep Luke from getting involved.

This is really really simple and doesn't require over-thinking if we are to understand the situation as the movie was originally created.


Now, toss in the Prequel version of Obi and Owen's relationship (which is ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NON-EXISTENT, NILCH) and we first have to wonder:

1. Why Obi Wan would choose Anakin's step family to hide the baby with
2. How Obi Wan would even know about Anakin's step family, seeing that while Qui Gon stole his thunder in TPM, Obi was left to do absolutely nothing at all in the middle of the desert, so he has literally no knowledge of the planet or of any of the people on it.

So given that, we can only assume that in Episode III, Obi Wan makes an idiotic decision that the baby (only one) should be raised with "family." (The girl apparently doesn't matter). So now, the baby is raised in a place that Anakin knows about and can easily find if ever pressed to do so. So Owen, who has no reason to even like Anakin, being that he left without saying goodbye (and he took the protocal droid without asking if it would be alright....pretty rude all around), is asked by another Jedi, whom he has never met, if he would take care of that lout's baby.

Yeah, makes perfect sense to me.

Exhaust Port
07-14-2003, 11:25 AM
What "involvement"?

We see that Owen is part of the Anakin/Vader story, he's Anakin's stepbrother. He also has to understand the importance of hiding Luke from his father and the Empire.


Owen's brother drops off some baby with this horror story attached.

We don't know who drops off Luke and I would assume that it wouldn't be his brother Anakin. You can't hide from the Empire when the Sith Lord knows where you are. It would make more sense that Obi Wan or some other 3rd party brought the kid. The kids dropped off with the warning that his father, " you know, your stepbrother Anakin" has turned to the dark side and is a ruthless mass-murderer. Owen has to hide this kid and if he's found you'll bring the attention of the Empire to the little planet.

So does he act out of a sense of protection of the kid or out of fear of the Empire/Vader? I pick fear of the Empire and Vader.


Now, toss in the Prequel version of Obi and Owen's relationship (which is ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NON-EXISTENT, NILCH)

It's a relationship by association. Obi is Anakin's teacher and Anakin is Owen's stepbrother. Are you saying that they aren't aware of the other? Obviously they know of each other as Obi Wan choices Owen to get one of the kids and Owen must know that Obi Wan is the teacher of his stepbrother that has now gone insane and is the tyrant of the galaxy. Prior to the PT we didn't even know that Owen knew Anakin or what the relationship was to Luke.

2-1B
07-14-2003, 11:35 AM
stillakid, I don't see how the Obi/Owen brother relationship applies here at all. :confused:
It's not even hinted at in ANH, let alone the other 2 films of the OT. It shows up in the ROTJ novelization but I assume the majority of people who saw the film never even read that.
Remember, you're a big proponent of evaluating only "what's on the screen." ;)

stillakid
07-14-2003, 12:43 PM
stillakid, I don't see how the Obi/Owen brother relationship applies here at all. :confused:
It's not even hinted at in ANH, let alone the other 2 films of the OT. It shows up in the ROTJ novelization but I assume the majority of people who saw the film never even read that.
Remember, you're a big proponent of evaluating only "what's on the screen." ;)


Very true!!! :) However, that's one bit of backstory that not only makes sense, but is entirely relevant and speaks to Obi Wan's motivation for hiding Luke with the Lars family and gives Old Ben a reason to be hiding out on a backwater desert planet. If Owen=Ben's brother, then Ben can fully trust that Luke will be brought up "right," and this planet is the perfect hideout so that Obi can bide his time waiting for Luke to grow old enough to continue the fight. Even without the novelization backstory, the movie information (read between the lines) tells us exactly this scenario...Owen is fully aware of what might happen to Luke and he isn't all that eager to play Obi Wan's game.

This scenario just isn't possible with the new supernifty Prequel scenario. For one, Obi knows nothing about Tatooine besides the 1/4 mile radius around the Queen's starship in TPM. For another, he has no idea about the Lars family and would have even less clue of where to find them even if Anakin did blurt something out later on (after AOTC) about it (I mean, unless Lucas does something really stupid like having Anakin tell Obi Wan onscreen exactly where the Lars are in Episode III). Beyond that, even, it would be akin to homicide for Obi to hide baby Luke in one of the most obvious places for Anakin to look...that is assuming that Anakin even knows about the babies, which I'm certain he doesn't until after Episode IV (or shouldn't anyway). The fear, of course being, that the Emperor or Vader would find out about the hidden children and make a move to take them or kill them. So why would Obi Wan hide the baby in a place that he A) doesn't know about, B) with people he has no idea exist, and C) in the most obvious place in the galaxy for Anakin to find him? Ridiculous setup, any way you slice it. :dead:




We see that Owen is part of the Anakin/Vader story, he's Anakin's stepbrother. He also has to understand the importance of hiding Luke from his father and the Empire.
Well, yes, as ANH shows us, Owen does understand the importance of hiding Luke from the Empire. But I speak to motivation. As stated above, the "step-brother" scenario just doesn't work on any level. Of course, if you look at that relationship in a vaccuum, sure, it makes sense that you'd protect any relative from harm, but there's a lot more going on to set this situation up than that.




We don't know who drops off Luke and I would assume that it wouldn't be his brother Anakin. You can't hide from the Empire when the Sith Lord knows where you are. It would make more sense that Obi Wan or some other 3rd party brought the kid. The kids dropped off with the warning that his father, " you know, your stepbrother Anakin" has turned to the dark side and is a ruthless mass-murderer. Owen has to hide this kid and if he's found you'll bring the attention of the Empire to the little planet.
I think you misunderstood me. I was using the original continuity when speaking of Owen's brother. That would be Obi Wan, not Owen. And, yes, it makes (made) perfect sense for Obi Wan to be the one to bring Luke to Tatooine, in the old version of events. But see above for the clear reasons why it no longer makes any sense at all. In fact, the only person this irrational decision might make sense to would be Padme. Out of some maternal instinct to place (at least one of) her babies with family, she is the only one in the story who would know about the Lars family and where to find them. Of course, this decision would go against rational reason, but her "falling in love" with a bi-polar schizophrenic in the first place doesn't speak to her overall intelligence either. I'm not saying that this isn't part of George's plan. He did go through a nasty divorce in that time between ROTJ and now, so this could be his attempt to show just how stupid he thinks women really are. Who knows. ;)


So does he act out of a sense of protection of the kid or out of fear of the Empire/Vader? I pick fear of the Empire and Vader.
Why can't it be both? Owen cares about this boy that he raised from near-birth. No matter the threat, he's going to be concerned about his safety as well as be fearful of the threat. Whether Luke is mauled by a pack of wild Womprats or is taken by Stormtroopers, the result is the same. Luke is in trouble and no "father" wants to see that happen to his son. This exact scenario is precisely what eventually turned Anakin around in the end. Unfortunately for Owen, it just got him killed.




It's a relationship by association. Obi is Anakin's teacher and Anakin is Owen's stepbrother. Are you saying that they aren't aware of the other?
Why would they be aware of each other? :confused: That's the point. Obi Wan barely got sand in his boots the first and only time he was ever on Tatooine. He's got very little reason to even give that place a second thought. But let's say that in Episode III, Anakin tells Obi about his mother dying and such. Big deal. This is even more reason for Obi to not take the baby Luke there...the point is to hide the kid isn't it? Why take him to a place where Anakin just might return to for a number of reasons, the least being that his mother's grave is sitting right outside the frickin' door!

And why...forget that...how would Owen ever learn about Obi Wan Kenobi?! This scenario you speak of necessitates a special supernifty scene in Episode III where Obi Wan visits the Lar's Estate long before the end of the movie and the delivery of the child. Remember that Anakin bolted out of town without saying goodbye and with the droid. What a rude SOB! Why should Owen even give Obi the time of day, much less hide this dangerous child for a lifetime? What? Because he's his step-brother? :rolleyes: Obi Wan has a lot of fancy talkin' to do to make this set up even remotely plausible and acceptable to the Lars family.



Obviously they know of each other as Obi Wan choices Owen to get one of the kids and Owen must know that Obi Wan is the teacher of his stepbrother that has now gone insane and is the tyrant of the galaxy.
Right, which is why we have to wait for Episode III to see how this mess gets cleared up. There is no way that Obi Wan can know about the Lars' unless Anakin tells all during Episode III. But let's suppose he does just that and Obi now knows about Shmi dying, the subsequent slaughter, and Anakin's half-brother and gimpy step father. And maybe he even tells Obi about how he and Padme stole C3PO and took off without the common courtesy of saying, thanks for the blue juice and the pullout bed. Now we are expected to believe that Obi Wan, faced with the task of hiding this child from the most evil people in the galaxy, actually takes the baby to Anakin's family, next to his mother's gravesite, to people that barely know Anakin, don't know Obi at all, and who have every reason to be angry at Anakin for leaving so suddenly? Who is George trying to kid?


Prior to the PT we didn't even know that Owen knew Anakin or what the relationship was to Luke.
Not exactly, but close enough that we can get it without it being spelled out. It was clear that Owen knew Obi Wan more than he was letting on. Not only that, he also knew more about Luke's father (as we learn in ESB and ROTJ) than he was letting on when he says, "That's what I'm afraid of." With the information we learn definitively in ROTJ, we can come to the conclusion that because Luke calls Owen "uncle," that either Owen is Anakin's brother or that it is a ruse (if we take the novelization information into account). Lucas clearly favored not muddying up the waters and left Owen as a brother, however, he did this without considering the other ramifications of that decision and how inconsistent, unmotivated, and implausible Obi Wan's later choice (to hide the child there) would be. This just continues George's pattern of poor writing choices that we saw beginning with the very first drafts of The Star Wars (which were fixed by his friends) and by his solo efforts of TPM and AOTC.

Anyway, that's why I said originally that we can answer JT's question only by using the OT exclusively. Lord knows how George will write his way around the plotholes he's created. Only time will tell. :)

Exhaust Port
07-14-2003, 12:55 PM
Ok, so now all we do is sit and wait?


"Are we there yet?"

"Are we there yet?"

"Are we there yet?"

"Are we there yet?"

"Are we there yet?"

:D

stillakid
07-14-2003, 02:02 PM
Ok, so now all we do is sit and wait?


"Are we there yet?"

"Are we there yet?"

"Are we there yet?"

"Are we there yet?"

"Are we there yet?"

:D


Uh, no and I have to go to the bathroom....

JediTricks
07-14-2003, 10:05 PM
The fact that Owen has repeatedly kept Luke from going to the academy for several seasons with some lame excuses shows he's against Luke getting involved. He also lies if you will to keep Luke from getting involved with Obi Wan who he knows is a big hater of the Empire. With R2D2 being a possible connection to both Obi Wan and his involvement with the Empire, Owen makes a rash decision to have the droids memory erased. IMO, that's a stretch on all 3, "cart before the horse"-style logic, you state that Owen does something and then explain why he did it with supposition and very-after-the-fact plot points in place of on-screen evidence. In the Academy and R2's previous owner issues, what we see on-screen suggests that Owen has kept Luke from going to academy because Owen still needs help on the farm (he says as much); and with R2 & 3PO's memory wipes, he is buying stolen property and seems to want to make sure the droids act for the good of the farm and respect that the Lars family are their new masters. Granted, there could be subtext within those, but I'm not seeing the direct evidence to get there (and you can't claim anything from the prequels as on-screen evidence since they came after these scenes were made). As for telling Luke to keep away from old Ben Kenobi, there seem to be a myriad of reasons, one that was stated was that Owen doesn't want Luke getting mixed up in all that sort of wizard nonsense and becoming like his father.

None of this really shows whether Owen cares about Luke though, nor does the lost ROTJ plot point about Owen & Obi-Wan being brothers.


Let's view Owen's scripted lines in the ANH and see if we can deconstruct 'em or find the theme in question:
--

Out of the shadows of a dingy side-building limps Owen Lars, a large burly man in his mid-fifties. His reddish eyes are sunken in a dust-covered face. As the farmer carefully inspects each robot, he is closely followed by his slump- shouldered nephew, Luke Skywalker.

OWEN: I have no need for a protocol droid.

THREEPIO: (quickly) Sir -- not in an environment such as this -- that's why I've also been programmed for over thirty secondary functions that...

OWEN: What I really need is a droid that understands the binary language of moisture vaporators.

THREEPIO: Vaporators! Sir -- My first job was programming binary load lifter...very similar to your vaporators. You could say...

OWEN: Do you speak Bocce?

THREEPIO: Of course I can, sir. It's like a second language for me...I'm as fluent in Bocce...

OWEN: All right shut up! (turning to Jawa) I'll take this one.

THREEPIO: Shutting up, sir.

OWEN: Luke, take these two over to the garage, will you? I want you to have both of them cleaned up before dinner.

LUKE: But I was going into Toshi Station to pick up some power converters...

OWEN: You can waste time with your friends when your chores are done. Now come on, get to it!

LUKE: All right, come on! And the red one, come on. Well, come on, Red, let's go.

Owen is negotiating with the head Jawa. Luke and the two robots start off for the garage when a plate pops off the head of the red astro-droid's head plate and it sparks wildly.

LUKE: Uncle Owen...

OWEN: Yeah?

LUKE: This R2 unit has a bad motivator. Look!

OWEN: (to the head Jawa) Hey, what're you trying to push on us?

THREEPIO: (pointing to Artoo) Excuse me, sir, but that R2 unit is in prime condition. A real bargain.

LUKE: Uncle Owen...

OWEN: Yeah?

LUKE: What about that one?

OWEN: (to Jawa) What about that blue one? We'll take that one.

---

Luke sits with his Uncle Owen before a table covered with steaming bowls of food as Aunt Beru carries in a bowl of red grain.

LUKE: You know, I think that R2 unit we bought might have been stolen.

OWEN: What makes you think that?

LUKE: Well, I stumbled across a recording while I was cleaning him. He says he belongs to someone called Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Owen is greatly alarmed at the mention of his name, but manages to control himself.

LUKE: I thought he might have meant old Ben. Do you know what he's talking about? Well, I wonder if he's related to Ben.

Owen breaks loose with a fit of uncontrolled anger.

OWEN: That old man's just a crazy old wizard. Tomorrow I want you to take that R2 unit into Anchorhead and have its memory flushed. That'll be the end of it. It belongs to us now.

LUKE: But what if this Obi-Wan comes looking for him?

OWEN: He won't, I don't think he exists any more. He died about the same time as your father.

LUKE: He knew my father?

OWEN: I told you to forget it. Your only concern is to prepare the new droids for tomorrow. In the morning I want them on the south ridge working out those condensers.

LUKE: Yes, sir. I think those new droids are going to work out fine. In fact, I, uh, was also thinking about our agreement about my staying on another season. And if these new droids do work out, I want to transmit my application to the Academy this year.

Owen's face becomes a scowl, although he tries to suppress it.

OWEN: You mean the next semester before harvest?

LUKE: Sure, there're more than enough droids.

OWEN: Harvest is when I need you the most. Only one more season. This year we'll make enough on the harvest so I'll be able to hire some more hands. And then you can go to the Academy next year.

Luke continues to toy with his food, not looking at his uncle.

OWEN: You must understand I need you here, Luke.

LUKE: But it's a whole 'nother year.

OWEN: Look, it's only one more season.

Luke pushes his half-eaten plate of food aside and stands.

LUKE: Yeah, that's what you said last year when Biggs and Tank left.

AUNT BERU: Where are you going?

LUKE: It looks like I'm going nowhere. I have to finish cleaning those droids.

Resigned to his fate, Luke paddles out of the room. Owen mechanically finishes his dinner.

AUNT BERU: Owen, he can't stay here forever. Most of his friends have gone. It means so much to him.

OWEN: I'll make it up to him next year. I promise.

AUNT BERU: Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his father in him.

OWEN: That's what I'm afraid of.

---

(Nighttime, R2's run off, Luke is with 3PO looking for him) Owen yells up from the homestead plaza.

OWEN: Luke, I'm shutting the power down for the night.

LUKE: All right, I'll be there in a few minutes. Boy, am I gonna get it. You know that little droid is going to cause me a lot of trouble.

---

Morning slowly creeps into the sparse but sparkling oasis of the open courtyard. The idyll is broken by the yelling of Uncle Owen, his voice echoing throughout the homestead.

OWEN: Luke? Luke? Luke? Where could he be loafing now!

The interior of the kitchen is a worm glow as Aunt Beru prepares the morning breakfast. Owen enters in a huff.

OWEN: Have you seen Luke this morning?

AUNT BERU: He said he had some things to do before he started today, so he left early.

OWEN: Uh? Did he take those two new droids with him?

AUNT BERU: I think so.

OWEN: Well, he'd better have those units in the south range repaired be midday or there'll be hell to pay!

----

I'm not seeing much in that which suggests Owen loves his adoptive son, so we have to temper the text above with Phil Brown's performance in the film which (in theory) is based off of Lucas' direction of the material, as well as the actor's independent interpretation of the material. Is there enough evidence on-screen to suggest that Owen cares for Luke? Or perhaps is it all about the mixture of subtle acting, directing, and writing which makes its point within the ether of movie magic? Or are we as an audience projecting our feelings onto a character's relationship where none exists?



BTW, it seems probable to me that Padme will deliver Luke to Owen & Beru, and later Obi-Wan will learn of this and come knocking at their door wishing to bring their adoptive kid up as a Jedi, they'll say no and he'll pester them a bit and then move into a hovel close by to help guide the boy from afar. Apparently, Owen and possibly Beru will know of Obi-Wan as a Jedi Knight and general, but will want a simpler, safer life for Luke than that. Much of this is stuff I don't think can be shown in Ep 3 since it's a fairly substantial period of time to cover.

Exhaust Port
07-14-2003, 10:25 PM
LUKE: Well, I stumbled across a recording while I was cleaning him. He says he belongs to someone called Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Owen is greatly alarmed at the mention of his name, but manages to control himself.



This seems to imply that there are some issues between Obi Wan and Owen, more than just a fleeting social relationship.




LUKE: I thought he might have meant old Ben. Do you know what he's talking about? Well, I wonder if he's related to Ben.

Owen breaks loose with a fit of uncontrolled anger.

OWEN: That old man's just a crazy old wizard. Tomorrow I want you to take that R2 unit into Anchorhead and have its memory flushed. That'll be the end of it. It belongs to us now.



Why would he get to the point of uncontrollable anger over the mention of someone's name unless he's driven by fear or anger by them personally. What could be the source of the fear or anger? I feel it's Obi-Wan's association with the Empire/Clone Wars and that Owen knows that that association is what hunts Luke and possibly Owen and Beru. The only way to protect himself and Luke is avoid Ben all together.

Kidhuman
07-14-2003, 10:28 PM
Padme could also tell Obi-Wan about the Lars. She could say take him there and hide him. So ben just takes him there and hides out until Luke becomes of age. Owen could have been lying to Luke when he said Ben was dead. He could of dropped him off, left and never have been seen again.

Anakin could have said something as well. He did leave Naboo and didn't tell anyone about it. If questioned by Yoda or Mace or even Ben himself, he could have told them about what happened.

stillakid
07-14-2003, 11:04 PM
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Exhaust Port
The fact that Owen has repeatedly kept Luke from going to the academy for several seasons with some lame excuses shows he's against Luke getting involved. He also lies if you will to keep Luke from getting involved with Obi Wan who he knows is a big hater of the Empire. With R2D2 being a possible connection to both Obi Wan and his involvement with the Empire, Owen makes a rash decision to have the droids memory erased.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMO, that's a stretch on all 3, "cart before the horse"-style logic, you state that Owen does something and then explain why he did it with supposition and very-after-the-fact plot points in place of on-screen evidence. In the Academy and R2's previous owner issues, what we see on-screen suggests that Owen has kept Luke from going to academy because Owen still needs help on the farm (he says as much); and with R2 & 3PO's memory wipes, he is buying stolen property and seems to want to make sure the droids act for the good of the farm and respect that the Lars family are their new masters. Granted, there could be subtext within those, but I'm not seeing the direct evidence to get there (and you can't claim anything from the prequels as on-screen evidence since they came after these scenes were made). As for telling Luke to keep away from old Ben Kenobi, there seem to be a myriad of reasons, one that was stated was that Owen doesn't want Luke getting mixed up in all that sort of wizard nonsense and becoming like his father.

None of this really shows whether Owen cares about Luke though, nor does the lost ROTJ plot point about Owen & Obi-Wan being brothers.




I'm going to back up EP and say that it isn't a stretch in the least. The best movies exist "between the lines" and character is made up of sub-text. When Directors feel the need to browbeat the audience with the information is when movies go bad. So, yes, even without the Prequel information, or the info from Episodes V and VI, it is very safe to say that Owen both cared about Luke and needed help on his moisture farm. The farm was indeed an excuse to keep the boy around, but it was also a very practical one as well. It's not like he was making something up just to keep Luke from getting involved.

So, sure, if one insists on sticking with the literal meaning behind a character's words, particularly when it speaks to motivation for action, its easy to say that Owen just needed help on his farm and suggest that he couldn't give a hoot about the kid. Just as long as he has some kind of help, that's all that's important. But as bad of a writer as George seems to have become, I don't think that Huyck and Katz would have allowed something so frivolous and superficial as that get through. Owen's words were too full of foreboding as well as the acting that brought the words to life.

2-1B
07-15-2003, 12:49 AM
Well said stillakid, I agree completely. :)
For me it comes down to one line, "that's what I'm afraid of."
All we know from ANH is that Luke's father was a Jedi and he died while mixed up with that life. So when Owen says he's fearful that Luke is too much like his father, I take it to mean he is concerned for the lad. I do agree with JT's possibility that "Or perhaps is it all about the mixture of subtle acting, directing, and writing which makes its point within the ether of movie magic?" I think the performance by Phil Brown DOES add a lot to the text.


Very true!!! :) However, that's one bit of backstory that not only makes sense, but is entirely relevant and speaks to Obi Wan's motivation for hiding Luke with the Lars family and gives Old Ben a reason to be hiding out on a backwater desert planet. If Owen=Ben's brother, then Ben can fully trust that Luke will be brought up "right," and this planet is the perfect hideout so that Obi can bide his time waiting for Luke to grow old enough to continue the fight. Even without the novelization backstory, the movie information (read between the lines) tells us exactly this scenario...Owen is fully aware of what might happen to Luke and he isn't all that eager to play Obi Wan's game.

This scenario just isn't possible with the new supernifty Prequel scenario. For one, Obi knows nothing about Tatooine besides the 1/4 mile radius around the Queen's starship in TPM. For another, he has no idea about the Lars family and would have even less clue of where to find them even if Anakin did blurt something out later on (after AOTC) about it (I mean, unless Lucas does something really stupid like having Anakin tell Obi Wan onscreen exactly where the Lars are in Episode III). Beyond that, even, it would be akin to homicide for Obi to hide baby Luke in one of the most obvious places for Anakin to look...that is assuming that Anakin even knows about the babies, which I'm certain he doesn't until after Episode IV (or shouldn't anyway). The fear, of course being, that the Emperor or Vader would find out about the hidden children and make a move to take them or kill them. So why would Obi Wan hide the baby in a place that he A) doesn't know about, B) with people he has no idea exist, and C) in the most obvious place in the galaxy for Anakin to find him? Ridiculous setup, any way you slice it. :dead:

Good points but I have one challenge. When ANH was released, we didn't see anything on screen to say that Owen was Luke's father's uncle but then again we didn't see anything to say Owen WASN'T Luke's real uncle. Within ANH itself, it makes perfect sense that Owen is Luke's real uncle. Luke's father is dead, so it sounds pretty natural that he would be "adopted" by his uncle. George still had to decide wether or not to make Vader Luke's father in ESB and I think that's where the questions start to arise. Throughout ESB and ROTJ, Owen and Anakin could still be brothers but then we have to wonder "why would Luke be living with Vader's known brother?"

Going into the prequels, at first I think I was put off by the change of Owen-Ben to Owen-Anakin as brothers but I'm fine with it now. I will however admit that AOTC could have done a better job of showing Anakin's interactions with Owen. From what I've heard, there was lots of footage cut with Owen and I'd like to see that someday to see if there was some more substance to it. Yet I still see enough in AOTC to get the point across. It's not much, but it is there. :D





And why...forget that...how would Owen ever learn about Obi Wan Kenobi?! This scenario you speak of necessitates a special supernifty scene in Episode III where Obi Wan visits the Lar's Estate long before the end of the movie and the delivery of the child. Remember that Anakin bolted out of town without saying goodbye and with the droid. What a rude SOB! Why should Owen even give Obi the time of day, much less hide this dangerous child for a lifetime? What? Because he's his step-brother? :rolleyes: Obi Wan has a lot of fancy talkin' to do to make this set up even remotely plausible and acceptable to the Lars family.

This is what I was getting at earlier. :) Owen has heard the name "Obi-Wan Kenobi" before - when R2 rolls up with Obi-Wan's message during the funeral. So that's why I believe they don't need a big introductory scene in E3 between Obi and Owen. However, they could have done a much better job in AOTC of putting some meat into the Anakin/Owen relationship with some of Obi-Wan's influences sprinkled in.

I'm sure Anakin said "goodbye" before bolting out of town. :rolleyes: The movie is just edited for pace, I don't believe he and Padme just jumped in their ship and took off. :D

Sure, the Lars family hasn't really met Anakin for long -- but remember that his mother lived with them for an extended period of time. She CERTAINLY talked about her little Ani, I don't think it's a stretch to assume that. Also, they clearly had a loving relation with Shmi so it's not unnatural for them to take in Shmi's grandson. :) (even if they were angered by Anakin for several reasons)


Now we are expected to believe that Obi Wan, faced with the task of hiding this child from the most evil people in the galaxy, actually takes the baby to Anakin's family, next to his mother's gravesite, to people that barely know Anakin, don't know Obi at all, and who have every reason to be angry at Anakin for leaving so suddenly? Who is George trying to kid?

Exactly, it's been like this since ESB! :D Why was Luke hidden with Vader's brother? :confused: The Owen/Obi-Wan brother relationship was indeed a perfect way to "write himself out of a corner" but the fact remains that nothing in the movies tells us Owen WASN'T Anakin's brother. And again I'll attribute part of it to George not knowing for certain that Vader would be Lukes' father, and the other part I'll have to leave up to Anakin's painful ties to Tatooine and his reluctance to go back. I know that part might sound weak to some people, but I will also suggest that maybe Anakin doesn't even know in Episode III that he has a son. If that's the case, then it works fine if Owen takes the child because Anakin/Vader would have no reason to go "looking" there to begin with . . . ;)


Not exactly, but close enough that we can get it without it being spelled out. It was clear that Owen knew Obi Wan more than he was letting on. Not only that, he also knew more about Luke's father (as we learn in ESB and ROTJ) than he was letting on when he says, "That's what I'm afraid of." With the information we learn definitively in ROTJ, we can come to the conclusion that because Luke calls Owen "uncle," that either Owen is Anakin's brother or that it is a ruse (if we take the novelization information into account).

This spurred something I hadn't thought of much before. In ANH, Owen says "that wizard's just a crazy old man." So now I wonder how many times Owen has bumped into Obi-Wan over the years? Kenobi's been around for awhile and it's not like Owen thinks he is dead or anything liek that . . . and the biggest thing is that Luke himself knows about "Old Ben Kenobi" and approximately where Kenobi lives.

So I guess it's likely that much of the Owen/Obi "feud" takes place off camera in between trilogies as Luke grows up? :confused:

Exhaust Port
07-15-2003, 09:17 AM
For me it comes down to one line, "that's what I'm afraid of."

I really think that is the key line but it depends on how you interpret it's meaning. If Owen understands the tyrannt that his father has become (truly become, not not he's just a Sith Lord) then he could be afraid of Luke becoming the same. Neither himself nor the planet could be safe. Does he feel he's sitting on a ticking time bomb where any little bit of nudging, or bad influence, could set him off? Keeping Luke from Obi Wan might be Owen's way of keeping Luke from a known bad influence. Heck Obi Wan could be seen as being responsible for the fall of Anakin in Owen's eyes.

I'm sure both his aunt and uncle care for Luke, it's only human. What's the modivation behind keeping Luke on the farm or away form certain characters? I think it has less to do with love or caring and more with fear. Owen is "afraid" that Luke will turn into his father. Keeping him in isolation is the safest way for everyone.

stillakid
07-15-2003, 11:57 PM
I'm sure both his aunt and uncle care for Luke, it's only human. What's the modivation behind keeping Luke on the farm or away form certain characters? I think it has less to do with love or caring and more with fear. Owen is "afraid" that Luke will turn into his father. Keeping him in isolation is the safest way for everyone.

But isn't that "fear" of what Luke could become derive from him caring for him? I mean, if he didn't give a rat's arse about the kid, then he wouldn't really be afraid of any bad influences he might run into. Right?

This is what I'm not understanding at all with this line of questioning and this thread. Why it has to be one or the other. Definitely, YES, Owen is afraid for Luke because he cares for him. No? :confused:

JediTricks
07-15-2003, 11:57 PM
The best movies exist "between the lines" and character is made up of sub-text.... So, yes, even without the Prequel information, or the info from Episodes V and VI, it is very safe to say that Owen both cared about Luke and needed help on his moisture farm. The farm was indeed an excuse to keep the boy around, but it was also a very practical one as well. It's not like he was making something up just to keep Luke from getting involved. But the point of this thread is asking about on-screen evidence of Owen caring for Luke, which can't be taken into account by the influence of later movies (and in this case, they're all later movies) and has to be more solid than flat-out audience supposition. If there are clues given to us from what's on-screen that allow the audience to make these assumptions, then what are these clues? Did Lucas imply that Owen loved Luke, or is the audience mainly inferring it?

Nothing I've seen in Owen suggests he cares one way or the other about the Empire; we aren't given any other explanation as to why he is holding Luke back except the straightforward "because we need help on the farm" answer; we don't even know if 1970s Lucas intended for Owen and Beru to know the true fate (whatever that may have been at that time) of Anakin, so what gives so much more weight to their foreboding conversation in reference to how Owen feels about Luke?



For me it comes down to one line, "that's what I'm afraid of."
All we know from ANH is that Luke's father was a Jedi and he died while mixed up with that life. So when Owen says he's fearful that Luke is too much like his father, I take it to mean he is concerned for the lad. But that line is a fairly open one, you could say "I think the price of pizza is going up" and I could respond with it. If we assume that Owen and Beru know Anakin's fate, then yes, the line is very telling... but is it telling of love, or of fear of what Anakin becomes? After all, if they do know of Anakin's fate, then Luke becoming him is something quite fearful indeed. See how the evidence can be suggestive, but not really specific. For all the Lars' knew, Anakin was simply a Jedi knight who died a horrific death and therefore, they're afraid of Luke following in Anakin's footsteps and dying - which would strongly suggest Owen cares.

Lucas & Phil Brown crafted a character in ANH that suggests one motive without ever really jumping in with both feet. It's ambiguous and leaves wiggle room for further tales and discussions like this one. :D You pull one thread loose, and a lot more can unravel - then each of us can knit something unique for ourselves out of the loose stuff. ;)


I'm sure both his aunt and uncle care for Luke, it's only human. What's the modivation behind keeping Luke on the farm or away form certain characters? I think it has less to do with love or caring and more with fear. Owen is "afraid" that Luke will turn into his father. Keeping him in isolation is the safest way for everyone.Well, besides the other stuff posted above, part of what popped this idea into my head was that Lucas has had a lot of anger towards father figures (most likely stemming from the strained relationship between himself and his father) and Owen Lars taken as most of us do - a loving uncle who is gruff but deep down cares for his nephew - doesn't really fit that mold, but the actual on-screen evidence does allow for the character to conform with Lucas' father-figure-archetype. It's not that uncommon in fiction for an adoptive mother to be loving towards their charge while her husband is not, and if Owen fears what Luke could become, then that could just as easily stem a loathing towards the boy.

2-1B
07-16-2003, 01:38 AM
But that line is a fairly open one, you could say "I think the price of pizza is going up" and I could respond with it.

Very true, that's why I place a lot of stock in Phil Brown's delivery of that line, it just speaks of loving concern to me. :)


If we assume that Owen and Beru know Anakin's fate, then yes, the line is very telling... but is it telling of love, or of fear of what Anakin becomes? After all, if they do know of Anakin's fate, then Luke becoming him is something quite fearful indeed. See how the evidence can be suggestive, but not really specific. For all the Lars' knew, Anakin was simply a Jedi knight who died a horrific death and therefore, they're afraid of Luke following in Anakin's footsteps and dying - which would strongly suggest Owen cares.

I believe it is telling of love in either case! :)

If they do believe that Anakin died that horrific death (which is the only possibility offered onscreen by ANH) then it's pretty simple for me that they don't want Luke to die as well.

Still, for me anyway, if Owen and Beru DO know of Anakin's true fate, I don't think they would be fearful of what Luke might become - do you mean they would literally be afraid of Luke and what he could do to them, or just afraid in general of Luke "losing his soul" so to speak? :confused:

I don't think they would be afraid for themselves in any case.

Kidhuman
07-16-2003, 10:10 AM
If they do believe that Anakin died that horrific death (which is the only possibility offered onscreen by ANH) then it's pretty simple for me that they don't want Luke to die as well.

Still, for me anyway, if Owen and Beru DO know of Anakin's true fate, I don't think they would be fearful of what Luke might become - do you mean they would literally be afraid of Luke and what he could do to them, or just afraid in general of Luke "losing his soul" so to speak? :confused:

I don't think they would be afraid for themselves in any case.


I agree Caesar. Either way they were afraid of what would happen to Luke. When they have raised him from a little boy, he felt like their own son. No one would want anything horrible to happen to their son. They had shielded him for 18 years. When Luke mentions Obi-Wan's name, Owens facial expression clearly changes along with his tone of voice. He knew what would happen if Luke met up with him, and he tried to avoid it at all costs.

JediTricks
07-17-2003, 01:20 AM
Caesar, interesting question. I really didn't know if I meant "fear of being killed by him" or "fear of losing his 'soul'", but I guess the latter is a definite sign that Owen cares while the former doesn't. So I don't have an answer for you, but that is the nature of the topic. I suppose in my usage yesterday, I meant "they were afraid of him becoming a monster" only in the superficial way, the way the villagers felt about Frankenstein's monster rather than the way Dr Frankenstein felt. :D

Don't get me wrong, like the rest of y'all, I am confident Owen cares, but I still think that it's only there in the gray areas between the lines (which leaves this sort of topic open)... I guess you could call that the solid "art" part of the process.

OC47150
07-17-2003, 03:49 PM
Owen is doing his best to protect Luke. When Luke was still a child, it was easier but Luke is in his late teens, itching to see the galaxy and get some adventure, and it's harder. Owen has to be a little rough and grumpy.

I do believe Owen and Beru know Anakin's true fate but created a cover story -- navigator on a spice freighter -- to protect Luke from the going out and searching for another story.

stillakid
07-17-2003, 09:47 PM
Using only the information that is presented in Episode IV, I think that it's very safe to conclude that Owen and Beru both are very well aware of who Obi Wan is and by what circumstances Luke has come to them. There can be no doubt that Owen is covering up information during the dinner sequence.

Of course, later on, in the subsequent episodes of the saga, the blanks get filled in as to what Owen was hiding, but it is all too clear in ANH even without the details that he will do whatever he can to keep Luke from A) getting involved with Obi Wan, and B) running off on his own to get involved in the galaxywide conflict. Through the words and acting onscreen, we can easily see that Owen feels both that Luke is safer on the farm and that he is trying to avoid having Luke succumb to the same fate that his father did (as we come to learn more about later on.)

I still fail to see how this could be a question? Please elaborate further.

The Overlord Returns
07-18-2003, 11:56 AM
So, do we assume that Owen knew Anakin was Darth Vader in Episode 4? Or, do we assume that he believes anakin had died during obi wans "damn fool" crusade?

OC47150
07-18-2003, 12:28 PM
That's 'damned fool idealistic crusade'!