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Bosskman
07-16-2003, 04:34 AM
I've come to the conclusion that there's no way that Palpy can't know that Padme is pregnant, especially since she's got scenes with him. "The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him." - Ben. I'm sure he knows and tries (and probably succeeds) in bumping her off. I just can't see how she could possibly hide her pregnancy from the Dark Lord of the Sith, especially when she's right in front of him.

TheDarthVader
07-16-2003, 12:54 PM
Luke, "But I have no sister." Ben, "To keep you safe, you were both hidden from the emperor when you were born." (or something like that)
Maybe palpy knows of ONE child but not the other. Ben, "That is why the identity of your sister remains safely anonymous." (or something like that). I think he knows only about Luke, and hopes Kenobi will fail with luke's training the way he did with Anakin, thus creating another darth.

Jedi Clint
07-16-2003, 01:04 PM
I've come to the conclusion that there's no way that Palpy can't know that Padme is pregnant, especially since she's got scenes with him. "The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him." - Ben. I'm sure he knows and tries (and probably succeeds) in bumping her off. I just can't see how she could possibly hide her pregnancy from the Dark Lord of the Sith, especially when she's right in front of him.


Except that she will be wearing garments that conceal her figure from the public, and that includes Palpatine. I seriously doubt he'll know.

Bosskman
07-16-2003, 04:05 PM
Jedi Clint, you're missing my point. Of course she's wearing concealing clothes buy those clothes wouldn't fool Palpy. I think he's know through the force that there's at least one other being concealed in there much less super midichlorianzed ones. Don't go into that "Vader didn't recognize Leia" crap either, there's a big difference between knowing someone is there and knowing who they are. I'm sure now Palpy knows and is plotting away.

The Overlord Returns
07-16-2003, 04:07 PM
But The emperor didn't sense Luke's presence on Dagobah.......so it's entirely possible that he wouldn't sense the twins.

Bosskman
07-16-2003, 05:28 PM
I'm not talking about remote long distance force powers here, I'm talking about , say, Palpy, pregnant Padme a 2 other senators are in the room, but Palpy senses 4 or 5 others in the room, and comes to the conclusion Padme is pregnant. I just don't she could hide it from the ol' sneaker when she was right in front of his face. I think it will weaken his character severely if she can.

Jedi Clint
07-16-2003, 06:59 PM
I'm not saying that it isn't possible. I'm just not sold on it.........yet :) How could we work that into what we worked out the other day (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20188) ? More reason for Palpatine to have her killed?

Jedi Clint
07-16-2003, 07:11 PM
Ya know what! I was wrong Bman! It works just fine one way or the other. It may even work better if he knows. I'm still tearing down some prior convictions regarding how the story will play out in this next filme. Forgive me.

Bosskman
07-16-2003, 07:46 PM
Same here on the prior convictions thing. I used to think that GL would find some way to NOT reveal the fact that Anakin is Vader until ESB. After seeing AOTC, it's pretty clear that aint gonna happen.

I'm not sure Palpy necessarily wants to have her, or at least her kids killed. I mean, he wanted Luke to take Vader's place at his side right, maybe he wants to get Anakin's kid ASAP so he can raise it as his own evil apprentice. I mean, I'm not sure he NEEDS Anakin (Vader) to fulfil his goals, I mean, one of Palpy's avenues to get what he wants are his opportunism and adaptability, he's got his hand on so maky strings, if a few of them break, it really doesn't matter, sorta like a spider web. I mean, just look at TPM, no matter how things could have turned out, Palpy would have found a way for things to "work to his advantage." Same goes for AOTC. Ep II is gonna be the best movie of the whole saga, I think, and it's gonna make the movies better as a whole as well - especially TPM.

Jedi Clint
07-16-2003, 08:16 PM
Same here on the prior convictions thing. I used to think that GL would find some way to NOT reveal the fact that Anakin is Vader until ESB. After seeing AOTC, it's pretty clear that aint gonna happen.

I'm not sure Palpy necessarily wants to have her, or at least her kids killed. I mean, he wanted Luke to take Vader's place at his side right, maybe he wants to get Anakin's kid ASAP so he can raise it as his own evil apprentice. I mean, I'm not sure he NEEDS Anakin (Vader) to fulfil his goals, I mean, one of Palpy's avenues to get what he wants are his opportunism and adaptability, he's got his hand on so maky strings, if a few of them break, it really doesn't matter, sorta like a spider web. I mean, just look at TPM, no matter how things could have turned out, Palpy would have found a way for things to "work to his advantage." Same goes for AOTC. Ep II is gonna be the best movie of the whole saga, I think, and it's gonna make the movies better as a whole as well - especially TPM.

What about: "The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him"?

Bosskman
07-17-2003, 05:05 AM
Yeah, they would be a threat to him but that doesn't necessarily mean that the only way to deal with that threat is killing them. I'm just trying every POSSIBLE scenario out in my head that might make sense with the OT. The only ones I'm completely in dissagreeance with are the "so and so is a clone" nonsense. You're probaly right though, if Palpy knew about the pregnancy, and I'm almost sure he does, he'd want to kill the kid(s).

scruffziller
07-17-2003, 09:03 AM
But The emperor didn't sense Luke's presence on Dagobah.......so it's entirely possible that he wouldn't sense the twins.

He couldn't sense Luke for the same reason who couldn't sense Yoda.

Darth Spectre
07-17-2003, 10:22 AM
I think it makes more sense for Palpatine to know about the pregnancy than Anakin actually. Because he could know about it and figure it would work to his advantage in the end by keeping it quiet (future apprentice). If Anakin knew from the beginning, unless he was tricked into believing the child or children were dead, he would try to find them from the get go. It is possible that Palpatine might not know though, since no matter how powerful one is with the Force, no one is without limits. The Emperor didn't forsee Vader killing him, Yoda could not sense Palpatine being Sidious, Obi-Wan could not sense Dooku being a Sith, Luke not sensing Yoda was the master he seeked, etc.

Jedi Clint
07-17-2003, 04:50 PM
I think it makes more sense for Palpatine to know about the pregnancy than Anakin actually. Because he could know about it and figure it would work to his advantage in the end by keeping it quiet (future apprentice). If Anakin knew from the beginning, unless he was tricked into believing the child or children were dead, he would try to find them from the get go. It is possible that Palpatine might not know though, since no matter how powerful one is with the Force, no one is without limits. The Emperor didn't forsee Vader killing him, Yoda could not sense Palpatine being Sidious, Obi-Wan could not sense Dooku being a Sith, Luke not sensing Yoda was the master he seeked, etc.

Not if he thinks she's dead. (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20188)

Darth Spectre
07-17-2003, 04:55 PM
That is true too. Anakin's use of the force to see things was strong with his mother, but we haven't seen how well he can use it to "feel" Padme.

Jedi Clint
07-17-2003, 05:52 PM
I'm just trying every POSSIBLE scenario out in my head that might make sense with the OT.

You've already helped me open up to a possibility or two, and I thank you for it. :)

Spectre,

I wonder how much he could sense his mother when she wasn't being tortured by Raiders. Could he always feel her presence, or was it only when she was calling out to him with all her being that he picked up the vibe?

TheDarthVader
07-17-2003, 06:39 PM
But The emperor didn't sense Luke's presence on Dagobah.......so it's entirely possible that he wouldn't sense the twins.
What!!!!? How long has it been since you watched ESB? It is clear he senses Luke. Oh okay, maybe not specifically ON DAGOBAH, but he is aware of Luke.

Vader: What is thy bidding my master?
Emperor: There is a great disturbance in the force.
Vader: I have felt it.
Emperor: We have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker. etc etc

Bosskman
07-17-2003, 07:46 PM
I'm necessarily talking about some elaborate way for Palpy to be able to sense stuff, just that he can sense that one of the senators in his office is pregnant. I mean, at the very least he could sense her apprehension and nervousness about trying to hide a pregnancy. I don't see how it's that hard to grasp.

Darth Spectre
07-17-2003, 09:02 PM
It is possible Anakin only sensed her, really felt his mother when she was in pain, crying out for him figuratively if not literally. And Vader knew of Luke by the time the Emperor made contact with him in TESB, but he might have learned of his existence from more conventional ways. Like torturing rebel spys to reveal who was the pilot that destroyed the Death Star. Since Vader already knew that pilot had force abilities from his experience in the trench, it would have been easy for him to accept that. Just like Luke accepted Vader as his father relatively quickly deep down.

Bosskman
07-18-2003, 04:55 AM
DS, I think the Vader-Luke thing (and Palpt-Luke thing for that matter) is sorta like this. Vader felt him in the force as someone who the force was strong with. (There's nothing saying he never felt the same way about Leia either but why would he want to tell her the force was strong with her when he was interrogating her?) There are probably hundreds of beings in the galaxy with strong force potential, they just aren't jedi or sith. Anyways, back to Vader and Luke. I'm sure that Vader did, like you said, some "research" into the guy that destroyed the Death Star, put two and two together and realized it was his long lost son. Remember, distance is no obstacle to sensing someone in the force. "This one, a long time have I watched." I'm sure Yoda wasn't sneaking around the Lars hommestead, peeping out from Vaporators and disguising himself as a Jawa. Same could possibly go for Palpy sensing Luke. The only difference is, Yoda knew who he was and who to look for. Palpy might have thought he killed him long ago and that the feeling he was getting was coming from someone else, or maybe he could always sense him, he just didn't know where he was.

Trip J
07-18-2003, 08:11 AM
If Palpy comes into contact with a Padme, I would think it would be difficult for him not to sense the Force in the twins she will be carrying.

So, there are then just a couple of possiblities from there:

Palpy knows about Luke, and chooses to wait (he is a pretty patient guy after all) until he is ready to make him (Luke) his apprentice when he is finished with Vader. This is plausible, especially since you have to figure that there aren't any other Jedi to corrupt, and since Palpy is busy being the Emperor and ruling the galaxy and all, he might not have time to go out looking for potential Force-sensitives to apprentice to him.

Palpy thinks Padme is dead, and the child (I doubt he would realize that there are two) with her.

Palpy is in the dark about everything (which to me would be the least plausible explanation considering his considerable power).

Jedi Clint
07-18-2003, 01:59 PM
Perhaps it is the will of the force that Palpatine either will believe Padme and her unborn are dead (as the result of an "successful" attempt on her life), or perhaps Palpatine will believe Padme to be dead (for the same reason) and the will of the force is that he is/was unable to sense that she was with child(ren).

The Overlord Returns
07-18-2003, 02:14 PM
What!!!!? How long has it been since you watched ESB? It is clear he senses Luke. Oh okay, maybe not specifically ON DAGOBAH, but he is aware of Luke.

Vader: What is thy bidding my master?
Emperor: There is a great disturbance in the force.
Vader: I have felt it.
Emperor: We have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker. etc etc


Ooh...that's a big old typo..........It should read on Endor.....I was talking about ROTJ...not ESB.

Darth Spectre
07-18-2003, 02:19 PM
Actually, in ROTJ, it is Vader who senses Luke is on Endor. The Emperor only tells Vader that Luke will come to him, but Vader is the one who knows Luke is there. The Emperor even comments about how strange it is that Vader can sense Luke but he cannot.

The Overlord Returns
07-18-2003, 02:39 PM
Actually, in ROTJ, it is Vader who senses Luke is on Endor. The Emperor only tells Vader that Luke will come to him, but Vader is the one who knows Luke is there. The Emperor even comments about how strange it is that Vader can sense Luke but he cannot.

Yeah.....that's what I was saying in the first post about this.....it's on the other page......but I typed in dagobah when i meant endor.......


...I'm tired and I have to lie down now.

Darth Spectre
07-18-2003, 02:43 PM
I hear ya...enjoy your nap ; )

Jaff
07-21-2003, 02:01 AM
Palpy will deffinately know that Padme is pregnant. First of all in SW Vader is the Emperor's best secret from everybody. The Emperor treats Anakin like a son and fuels his ego, but holds his reigns so tight so that he has no freedom to think about his past or even consider that his children are alive. The kids are simply missing. Since Vader is the best kept secret, noone, not even Imperials really know who he is. Vader is set up with Tarkin as an assistant, because they were together in Episode III????? But the fact is that all the people on the first Death Star don't treat him with respect. In empire Strikes back Ozzel treats Vader like an interloper. Who is this guy on my ship? But Vader knows his son is alive, and that does exactly what the emperor doesn't want: he snaps and gets passionate about finding his boy so that he can join his family. So vader pulls no punches. He starts killing people like ozzel to make sure they do exactly what he says. That is why the Emperor controls him in ROTJ. He's too eager, like in his youth, and the Emperor knew from the start that the key to vader's conscience is his kids. So he has to use this to his advantage before they were born or right after they were born. This relationship was formed when Padme probably had the kids. Anakin want's to find them after his fight with Obi-Wan, but the emperor most likely built Vader's hatred for Jedi by pulling vaders strings by saying things like those Jedi stole your children. Let's open up a can of Whoop ____!
He has to know she's pregnant. I have two children. You cannot hide that belly in the last two months. Also since Anakin sees Palpy as a father figure it is so obvious that when they see each other again Anakin will tell his father figure she's pregnant. What son would not do that. Anakin opens up to palpy and trusts him. In fact he's the only one that has supported and inspired anakin in Episode II without annalyzing or critisizing him. Ani would show up and say: "Guess what popy palpy, I've got a baby ready to sprout." That's when palpy starts thinking: "how can I use that to my advantage."

Darth Spectre
07-21-2003, 10:31 AM
You raise some interesting points. I disagree though with the idea that Vader is a secret. I think Vader is well known and feared throughtout the Empire, and I believe this is pretty much stated or at least hinted at throughtout the original trilogy. That is part of the humor and meaning behind his statement in the beginning of ROTJ when he says "The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am," because we have already learned Vader is very rarely if ever forgiving himself. I agree IF Palpatine knew about kids being out there, it would make sense to keep Anakin away from them. Not just because he might develop some paternal feelings and seek them out for that reason, but because he might seek them out to help him replace Palpatine and set himself up as the Sith Master.

As far as hiding the pregnancy, I think the idea for Anakin not knowing is that she is pregnant when WE first see her, and then she has them before she sees Anakin in person again. So by appearances at that point, there would be very little for Padme to conceal

Jaff
07-21-2003, 03:34 PM
actually the Vader being a secret is the only fact I can be proud to stand by because David Prowse was told by Lucas these things while he was on the set. Vader is an agent who gets things done in the background. That is why he is sent to hunt down the death star plans mercillously. Vader doesn't play by the Imperial officer's politics. So he is sent on a recovery mission that is ladden with bloodshed and little glory. He's like an executioner that upper officers do not respect until Vader starts killing them.

Darth Spectre
07-21-2003, 03:39 PM
actually the Vader being a secret is the only fact I can be proud to stand by because David Prowse was told by Lucas these things while he was on the set. Vader is an agent who gets things done in the background. That is why he is sent to hunt down the death star plans mercillously. Vader doesn't play by the Imperial officer's politics. So he is sent on a recovery mission that is ladden with bloodshed and little glory. He's like an executioner that upper officers do not respect until Vader starts killing them.


All makes sense to me. Just don't be surprised if 2003 Lucas makes it play out differently than the 1977 Lucas...LOL

Darth Spectre
07-21-2003, 03:42 PM
actually the Vader being a secret is the only fact I can be proud to stand by because David Prowse was told by Lucas these things while he was on the set. Vader is an agent who gets things done in the background. That is why he is sent to hunt down the death star plans mercillously. Vader doesn't play by the Imperial officer's politics. So he is sent on a recovery mission that is ladden with bloodshed and little glory. He's like an executioner that upper officers do not respect until Vader starts killing them.


Some of that probably did come across with the scene on the Death Star with Motti. The fact the he and Tarkin had a different relationship, a more respectful one, was probably why that M.O. wasn't so evident in EP IV, or as evident as it could have been anyway.

Jaff
07-30-2003, 11:48 PM
Although this deffinatley goes against my theory that palpatine knows I have no problem being wrong if that's the case. I was thumbing through some information about Vader knowing about Luke's birth when I discovered this article in Sci-Fi Universe issue #1 page 55. It explained some of the deleted scenes and an extended conversation between Ben and Luke on Dagobah. This is the exteded dialogue in that scene. Whether It's right or not (it's in a mag: it must be?) you decide. Just an F.Y.I.

Kenobi to Luke: "When your father left, he didn't know your mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew he would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep you both as safe as possible, for as long as possible. So I took you to live with my brother Owen on Tatooine...and your mother took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator Organa, on Alderaan. The Organa household was high-born and politically quite powerful in that system. Leia became a princess by virtue of lineage...no one knew she had been adopted, of course. But it was a title without real power, since Alderaan had long been a democracy. Even so, the family continued to be politically powerful, and Leia following her foster father's path became a senator as well. That's not all she became, of course...she became a leader of her cell in the Alliance against the corrupt empire. And because she had diplomatic immunity, she was a vital link for getting information to the rebel cause. That's what she was doing when her path crossed yours...for her foster parents had always told her to contact me on Tatooine, if her troubles became desperate."

The dialogue is a bit long winded, and even though it was filmed Lucas could have just dismissed this scene and rewrote everything. After all it wasn't in ROTJ so it could easily be changed for the prequel's storyline. Kinda neat though.

Darth Spectre
07-31-2003, 12:20 AM
Although this deffinatley goes against my theory that palpatine knows I have no problem being wrong if that's the case. I was thumbing through some information about Vader knowing about Luke's birth when I discovered this article in Sci-Fi Universe issue #1 page 55. It explained some of the deleted scenes and an extended conversation between Ben and Luke on Dagobah. This is the exteded dialogue in that scene. Whether It's right or not (it's in a mag: it must be?) you decide. Just an F.Y.I.

Kenobi to Luke: "When your father left, he didn't know your mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew he would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep you both as safe as possible, for as long as possible. So I took you to live with my brother Owen on Tatooine...and your mother took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator Organa, on Alderaan. The Organa household was high-born and politically quite powerful in that system. Leia became a princess by virtue of lineage...no one knew she had been adopted, of course. But it was a title without real power, since Alderaan had long been a democracy. Even so, the family continued to be politically powerful, and Leia following her foster father's path became a senator as well. That's not all she became, of course...she became a leader of her cell in the Alliance against the corrupt empire. And because she had diplomatic immunity, she was a vital link for getting information to the rebel cause. That's what she was doing when her path crossed yours...for her foster parents had always told her to contact me on Tatooine, if her troubles became desperate."

The dialogue is a bit long winded, and even though it was filmed Lucas could have just dismissed this scene and rewrote everything. After all it wasn't in ROTJ so it could easily be changed for the prequel's storyline. Kinda neat though.


Reading that reminds me of some of the interesting info that was in the novelization of ROTJ but never made the movie. Such as when it is revealed that Yoda was the one that made Obi-Wan keep the truth about Anakin from Luke. Obi-Wan wanted to tell him earlier.

Jedi Clint
07-31-2003, 06:21 PM
Actually, that text is from the ROTJ novelization. It was what I based much of my speculation on, but I just don't see how it can come to pass that a shirtless Anakin and Padme are in a scene together without Anakin being aware of Padme's pregnancy unless the movie covers 9 months of Star Wars time......and I doubt that is the case.