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Jayspawn
07-23-2003, 10:39 AM
My new issue of Entertainment Weekley arrived in the mail a few days ago and I just got around to reading this article about the dwindling rating for UPN's "Enterprise" and what to do about it.

Now, I liked the 1st season alright and unfortunatly I now work most Wednesday nights- so I miss it. But I've caught some reruns and read some episodes online. BUT between reading and watching I'm beginning to question the direction of the show.

I don't see how the producers of Enterprise are taking any direction to aim the series towards that of Kirk and Spock's time. The show isn't exactly "Seeking out new life, and new civilizations." Archer and crew just seem to be talking to other ships from their own ship and occasionally fighting. :rolleyes: I like the cast, but where are they going? They're not "Boldly going" that for sure.

Thoughts? Comments?

Exhaust Port
07-23-2003, 12:34 PM
My schedule doesn't permit me to catch the show very consistantly but I do make a point of watching it when I can. I really do like the Enterprise cast and I've liked the episodes I watched. The explaining of the ST universe backstory can only go on for so long before it become boring. They seem to have wrapped up doing that for now though. You're right that they seem to be just "wandering" rather than "seeking" which hurts the shows direction. Now I'm not the biggest ST fan so I might not be the best judge of Enterprise as a ST Show

Hellboy
07-23-2003, 08:36 PM
I record all my television shows so I don't have a problem catching all the episodes of my favorite shows and I've been watching this series from the beginning. At first I liked the idea and thought the series was going for a more action-adventure feel to it but it slowly seemed to go the route of Voyager. It's stories became very predictable and the show started to exploit the fact that a portion of their audience was watching to get a look at the HOT female character in tight outfits or half naked in a decontamination shower. The show also lacks a scense of purpose or solid direction and there is never a feeling that the crew won't get out of whatever mess they're in without a single casualty. I think Star Trek suffers from the same thing it has always suffured from and that is a lack of continuity and deep character developement. If this show were to have more of a base story, much like Babylon 5 did, rather than the stand alone episodes we get now and invested some time in making the characters more interesting I think it would increase it's appeal. I do however think the shows producers might be aware of this because this next season sounds promising with the war storyline and might fix these issues. If the show doesn't change it will most likely be cancelled and the Star Trek universe will go away for a while and when it comes back, and it will, it might be completely different and that might not be such a bad thing.

Jayspawn
07-23-2003, 10:24 PM
Enterprise lacks great character development. KIrk, Spock and McCoy had a great relationship and you always looked forward to those inside jokes made by Kirk and McCoy at Spock's expense.

McCoy: "Spock you're the most cold-blooded man I've ever known."

Spock: "Why thank you Doctor."

There was great themed humor in the characters of Scotty, Sulu, etc. And many times the crew was in way over their head when the ship got taken over by space hippies (The Way To Eden) or Khan and his men (Space Seed). But Kirk always found a way out. Some of the best eposides EVER were ones with ridicleous plots like The Trouble With Tribbles and I, Mudd.

On most episodes of Enterprise, The ship flys around, Archer and a crew mate fly down to a planet, get captured, beat up and somehow end up back on the ship at the end. Phlox looses one of his pets in sickbay, Hoshi comes across another language she cant figure out, the ship gets fired upon and we get another scene where T'Pol looks great in practically nothing. Each episode gets farther away from the other Trek shows without much humor or adventure.

Exhaust Port
07-23-2003, 11:03 PM
Ah, Babylon 5, I loved that show right up until the anti-climatic end to the Shadow War. B5 is the best Sci-Fi show series that hit the airwaves in my opinion. The characters and plots were top notch. I can't remember any other shows where I've ended up yelling at the top of my lungs in disgust or excitment at characters in a series. Great stuff....until the end of the Shadow War. :(

Star Trek seems to always base it's plots on the Enterprise and it's crew being out-classed in every regard but some how pulling it out in the end suprising their adversary. God, if they spent less time driving around the galaxy getting their butts kicked by some small ship throwing rocks and developing some shields that could withstand a fart's wind they wouldn't have gotten in so much trouble.

JediTricks
07-24-2003, 06:09 AM
I like the show, but I'm frustrated with the general lack of exploring new worlds and whatnot. I think that problem comes in the form of the 2 lead characters, Archer who seems to be on top of everything and be the perfect TNG-era captain, and T'pol who seems to care for not about anything really. I've felt VERY excited about seeing this universe from Trip's eyes though whenever that comes up, he genuinely feels like an explorer who is well trained but in over his head and flying by the seat of his pants, I wish there were more well-written stories that centered around Trip -- his character more than any other IMO embodies the nature of classic Trek's idealism which is lacking from other characters (though Phlox has grown on me a bit... Mayweather must be supplying the excess character for Phlox to leech off since Helmsman Mayweather is dull as dishwater). Oh, and the music is way too TNG-and-beyond orchestration, none of it is moving, just "safe". Let's get back to a smaller band with brash sounds that really stress the emotions of the scenes.

The "new direction" they're taking next season sounds to me like a classic Rick Berman mess, just slap some ripoffs of SW and Voyager together and you've got yourself a new premise. BAH! I'll still watch, but I am not sold.

I don't think the show can get better until either 1 of 2 things happens: either Archer changes to be more a hero and a Horatio Hornblower type, or they fully embrace the temporal cold war thing and start messing around with the timeline so they can explain the canon changes and set the show up for a big finale where Archer sacrifices himself, the ship, the crew, and their place in history for the greator good. But no, instead it's "more action" and probably another disappointing Voyager show.


BTW, B5 rules right up until season 5 when TNT totally screwed up the show. That's what got me into the fanboy end of the internet really.

Jayspawn
07-24-2003, 10:14 AM
Do you guys think they should axe the opening song?

I do. It's a good song. Catchy. But it's not Star Trek. I think they should have a Boldly Go opening like Star Trek and TNG. But they wouldn't do that because the Star Trek franchise is Rick Berman's toy and he THINKS he knows whats best.

mrmiller
07-24-2003, 11:20 AM
the Star Trek franchise is Rick Berman's toy and he THINKS he knows whats best.

Jay just figured out the entire problem with the current Star Trek.

I enjoy the show, and really don't have many problems with it except that I wish it was better. I really can't put my finger on it. It just needs "something". I'm excited about the next season, and hope this may jump start the series.

=MATT=

Exhaust Port
07-24-2003, 12:05 PM
Good points JT, I love the character of Trip. The episodes that I've found the more enjoyable are those revolving around him. As you said, he has that true explorer feel about him. He's truly Boldly Going where as the rest of the crew seems to be Slowly Going.

As for the theme song, it's fine by me. Not of the same style of the previous shows but change isn't always bad.

mrmiller
07-24-2003, 03:18 PM
I had downloaded an alternate version of the Star Trek intro, and it was much better. I'm not sure that is was the real thing, but the score put to the intro was much better than the lame song. Has anyone else checked the alternate intro out?

=MATT=

Hellboy
07-24-2003, 09:23 PM
BTW, B5 rules right up until season 5 when TNT totally screwed up the show.

I couldn't agree with you more on this point. The series should have ended after the 4th season.

One other comparison to B5 I'd like to make is the complete lack of emotion in Star Trek. I will admit that the ST movies have captured this rather well at points, Spock and David (Kirk's son) deaths come to mind but the T.V. show IMO never has. Just once I would like to see a character sacrifice themself for the greater good like JT said much like Sheridan did when he jumped to his death at the end of the 3rd season of B5. I can't think of a single scene from any ST series that had that sort of emotional impact.

Exhaust Port
07-24-2003, 09:42 PM
Lt Yar died in TNG but it wasn't really sad but made for a rather awkward funeral ceremony than involved Wessley Crusher. The upshot was that she appeared in Playboy about that time. :)

JediTricks
07-25-2003, 12:00 AM
As Guinan referred to in "Yesterday's Enterprise": It was a senseless death. Denise Crosby thought she had talent and wanted to not get caught up in the Trek thing, so she bailed only to find out that she didn't. ;)

The theme song, while a nice copy of the version sung by Rod Stewart for the movie Patch Adams, has a nice message but is missing the drive that Trek needs. Even Voyager got the opening themesong and credits right, but Enterprise seems to be too caught up in the production values to notice that the heart isn't quite there... what a shocker coming from Rick Berman. :rolleyes:

Hellboy, I disagree about the emotion issue, I think in TNG, there was some emotion that came off very powerfully, but much of it involved duty, honor, loss, adventure, and respect - they'd feel something and then because they were professional starship crewmembers, they'd move the hell on instead of wallowing. And because they didn't exist just within the time frame of the show but beyond, the emotions they felt and expressed and then buried didn't alter them in major ways because they were already fleshed-out characters. How many times can T'pol have a change of heart before it gets old? How many lessons do we have to see Archer learn that shape his psyche from then on? I know these guys are supposed to be "the first Trek", but they're not supposed to be Data from TNG, blank slate children who have no emotional backgrounds and are learning everything for the first time.

Exhaust Port
07-25-2003, 12:38 AM
It's hard to compare the higher emotions of B5 with anything that any ST episode can generate. Nearly all the ST plot lines are wrapped up in one 1 hour episode where as B5 took numerous episodes to address one issue. It might be interesting if they decided to change the format of Star Trek to something similar to B5. Ok, a war is on the horizon, draw it out in detail over one or more seasons.

Yeah, Denise Crosby disappeared almost completely after she left the show. She made an appearance soon after in the brief show, Models Inc. I believe it was called. Well that was killed pretty quick thankfully so she returned to TNG as the Romulan love child. Gosh was that lame. That move just screamed "Please let me back in, I'm sorry I thought I was a big enough star to go onto other projects." After a few token episodes of that she was gone for good. I don't recall seeing her again until Deep Impact which again was a brief/secondary role.

I think she produced that Star Trek documentery, "Trekkies." I heard it was a pretty good movie but I've never seen it.

JediTricks
07-25-2003, 01:15 AM
They tried to copy B5's style with DS9, first the whole show was ripped off from B5 (B5 was pitched to Paramount who turned it down and supposedly within days came up with the "idea" of a Trek show on a space station) and then again when they had the multi-season Dominion war plotline. Neither were anywhere near as successful IMO, due in large part to Trek being run by a committee headed by hopeless Rick Berman while B5 was completely 1 person's baby. I'm not saying DS9 wasn't good mind you, just not as good as B5.


I think Sci-Fi is a bit overrun with serious emotion-driven shows right now, if TOS were released today it would be a serious departure from that while still distancing itself from Saturday afternoon shows like Mutant X and Andromeda (which I both like, but they're fluff). Enterprise was supposed to be a departure from modern Trek, maybe they should have taken a departure from that sort of "serious story telling" and gone with a more casual, exciting TOS feel like they promised.

Exhaust Port
07-25-2003, 11:50 AM
I forgot about DS9 and the Dominion War which tells you how often I watched the show. I don't know what it was but it wasn't nearly as driving as B5 was. At the end of each B5 episode I was counting the days till the next one. I could go weeks without watching DS9 and feel like I didn't miss anything.

A good way to test the waters for Enterprise would be a 2 hour special episode that was this writing style departure you're talking about JT. I think most show writers are hesitant to make a drastic change knowing they would have to live with it for the rest of the season. A "one off" episode would allow them to try some new stuff and see if it floats. From what I've read they read the internet buzz quite a bit for the show so they could get some direct feed back on some of the changes and incorporate them later.

JON9000
08-11-2003, 11:00 AM
I have sadly watched the decline of Star Trek over the course of the last 15 years. Some observations:

1. The TNG movies were awful. They were never as good as the best of the series' shows. When I was a kid, Star Trek movies were event pictures for Paramount, and they poured resources into them. These days, the budget is a lot smaller and the effects are shoddy. Watch ST: TMP and Nemesis. The optical effects for TMP in many places look much better than the CGI in Nemesis. Part of it has to do with Models versus CGI. I happen to think the old Enterprise model looks better than the computer made E.

2. The creative team has clearly run out of ideas. Again, Nemesis was a poor man's Wrath of Khan, except the McGuffin in Khan was the supercool Genesis device, whereas in Nemesis it was some contrived lame radiation.

3. there is no way to measure up to TOS. It is simply a different world today. But they could at least try to make it progressive. Remember the first interracial kiss on television? TOS truly did go where no one had gone before.

4. I wish the new show were the ongoing adventures of the Excelsior. Captain Sulu and the gang would have been fun to watch, and I know Takei would have been all for it.

Jayspawn
08-11-2003, 11:14 AM
I would have liked to see a show about the Excelsior and Captain Sulu. Yeah! Takei would have done it too!

JediTricks
08-11-2003, 11:22 PM
I would have liked to see a show about the Excelsior and Captain Sulu. Yeah! Takei would have done it too!
Trying to get this into production is what led Nimoy to have a loud argument with Berman who had Nimoy ejected from the Paramount lot. Berman needs to be fed to the ducks.

Jayspawn
08-12-2003, 12:10 AM
Whats this JT? Berman ejected Nimoy? I've not heard of this. What was it over?

JediTricks
09-04-2003, 06:11 AM
Whats this JT? Berman ejected Nimoy? I've not heard of this. What was it over?
Read the post you're responding to. ;)


Anyway, so I watched tonight's airing of Enterprise and they showed the ad for next week's season premiere. First off, it looks like Archer changes into a hybrid creature - smacks of TNG, I don't want to see it at all but what can ya do? Second, more T'pol-based smut, that's old but I guess even with "huge, sweeping changes" the lowest common denominator remains the same. Finally, and probably of most interest, the show has had it's NAME CHANGED!!! Now it's finally being called "Star Trek: Enterprise" and looks like it has a new logo. AICN is even reporting possibility of a new theme song!

Exhaust Port
09-04-2003, 10:14 AM
Man, those are some hugh changes. I'm always a bit concerned when they change too many things all at once. It could very well submerge a sinking ship overnight if it they don't pull it off. A big risk to say the least.

Mandalorian Candidat
09-04-2003, 11:05 AM
Man, those are some hugh changes. I'm always a bit concerned when they change too many things all at once. It could very well submerge a sinking ship overnight if it they don't pull it off. A big risk to say the least.

Changing the theme song and the show name won't help a show out at all. Just ask the people on the 'Ellen' show.

What they need is better writing, and possibly a new producer. Get rid of Berman and let someone else have a try.

Exhaust Port
09-04-2003, 12:32 PM
Ellen has a show? ;)

JediTricks
09-05-2003, 04:21 AM
Ya know, I bet if T'Pol went all "Ellen" on this series, the ratings would go up. ;)

As much as the theme song has grown on me in terms of "hope for the future" sound, I still think it lacks the bounce and oomph that Trek needs to kick the show off. Voyager's and DS9's theme songs weren't quite brash enough, they had a sense of "the wonder of discovery" and "the wonder of life continuing on a space station" ;) respectively, but neither were really on-par with the themes to TOS, TNG/TMP, ST2, or ST4 - those were real lifty and yet not undignified. The theme song sets the tone for the show, maybe it's no coincidence that DS9, Voy, and Ent all have down theme songs and suffer in the ratings (though I won't count Berman's choices out as the prime factors in the latter 2).

Exhaust Port
09-05-2003, 08:54 AM
I do like the show intro song but with the planned changes and new direction of Enterprise I think it might need to be changed for the reasons you stated JT. If you want a high adventure show you need a high energy song.

Jayspawn
09-05-2003, 09:38 AM
I think they should have a variation on "Where no man has gone before."

I don't think anyone can get rid of Berman. Powerful he has become, evil Star Trek man!

JediTricks
09-07-2003, 10:39 PM
Paramount can get rid of him, he's run the franchise into the ground and they can't make money that way.

I've been thinking about the voice-over of "Space, the Final Frontier" and changing some of the words, but the X-factor is still the star of the show: I don't think he has that type of charisma, either on screen or vocally. He's the type of guy you build interest into over time, whereas Shatner was instantly charismatic on sight.

smurfvader
09-08-2003, 06:12 PM
Second, more T'pol-based smut, that's old but I guess even with "huge, sweeping changes" the lowest common denominator remains the same.
I just read that apparentlt Tripp and T'Pol are going to become a lot closer. He's lamenting over his sisters death and she's going to try to help him by showing him some sort of Vulcan "massage". In other words more sex on Enterprise. Sigh.. when will they learn that it's the charcaters and writing and not imagery that sells the show.

JIm

Exhaust Port
09-08-2003, 09:12 PM
Alright! Vulcan massage!!


Sorry, I'm only human. ;)

Hellboy
09-08-2003, 10:21 PM
I'm not holding out to much hope for this years show but I sure hope they give the show a more military feel to it if they are in fact going to be at war.

A few of the things we should expect to see this season IMO will be:

-Even though it will be a time of war no major charaters will die unless
the actor is planning on leaving the show for another project.

-T'Pol's forbidden emotions as a Vulcan will be the center point for many many storylines.

-The crew will be possessed by some sort of alien lifeform and loose control of the ship at some point.

-The away team will always consist of the most important people running the ship.

-New alien lifeforms will take center stage as the ship's main adversaries rather than the established more interesting races like the Klingons.

-At least one or more of the crew members will be captured or stranded at some point.

If ST is going to survive and continue to be a profitable franchise for the future they better drop the old formula and produce some new and interesting twists. I hope this make or break season delivers but my instincts say it won't.

So does anyone know when the series debut is? :p

Jayspawn
09-09-2003, 12:37 AM
Hey why not.

LTBasker
09-11-2003, 09:55 PM
After seeing the season 3 premeire I doubt it can be saved now. They're up to old tricks in a new form just to get easy ratings once again all while trying to convince people that they care about Star Trek. Horse. Hockey.

As long as there is an existance of Berman and Braga in any control of the Star Trek franchise I hope it now crash and burns around them.

JediTricks
09-12-2003, 03:27 AM
After seeing the season 3 premeire I doubt it can be saved now. They're up to old tricks in a new form just to get easy ratings once again all while trying to convince people that they care about Star Trek. Horse. Hockey.

As long as there is an existance of Berman and Braga in any control of the Star Trek franchise I hope it now crash and burns around them.
Totally agree, "more of the same with a different twist" is not my idea of a "big change", and changing the music part of the themesong to something more country-sounding removed the tune's entire meaning.

smurfvader
09-12-2003, 11:57 PM
A few of the things we should expect to see this season IMO will be:


Not to mention a relative of one of the crew members will be killed and ... wait a minute that's the plot of the entire 3rd season.

JIm

Phantom-like Menace
04-22-2007, 01:08 AM
I think we have to define ourselves based on what era we're a fan of now, since "modern" Trek today is Enterprise and the upcoming TOS-prequel movie being made by JJ Abrams (I fear this one will be awful). So I see what you're saying, I'd call it being a "TNG-era fan" though since that era's no longer "modern". :ermm: Plus, TNG is 20 years old this year and I hate to say it, but it feels sorta dated too.

I didn't really give it that much thought. In my use, "modern" was just meant to convey the ongoing production continuity (which may not be the word I'm looking for) that began with TNG. And as an aside though I included Voyager in that same era, I was never enormously fond of that series, though it did have its moments. I'm glad no one called me on that.


One thing I can stand up for on TOS is the maturity of the storytelling, granted they were forced to do some cheesy scripts, but there was some stuff in there that even today resonates strongly. And a couple things I think made TOS work so well that the later Treks didn't have (especially Enterprise) are a more shakespearean-yet-raw tone to the drama, and an ability to have a sense of humor

I think my sense that the show lacked maturity goes hand in hand with my feeling that the show all but flashed the words, "THIS IS THE MORAL OF OUR STORY" on the screen during moments which were almost painfully obviously conveying the moral. The Wheel of Morality from Animaniacs could have coveyed the moral with less heavy handedness. My favorite example is the episode where that guy (the Riddler?) has one half of his face black and one half white while the other race in his species had the colors reversed. I've seen more subtle statements on race relations in pop music videos.


you watch DS9 and even when they try to do humorous eps like Tribbles or the the baseball ep or the spy eps, it stands out like a sore thumb because of how humorless the rest of the eps are.

Really? DS9 did so many quirky episodes and many episodes dropped humor into the mix. If it was simply Odo busting Quark on something or O'Brien and Bashir coming out of the holosuites in full Spitfire pilot regalia drinking to buddies lost--or just the crazy relationship they had in general--there was often something to snicker at. I've always felt DS9 was a show that didn't always feel it had to take itself so seriously. Hell, just given the camp and unintentional humor of TOS, I always felt it would have come off better if it hadn't always tried to be so earnest. Now DS9 was often hit or miss in its attempts and there are some episodes that feel down right weird, but I give the show high marks for trying to break out of its own molds.


I wish Paramount would get off their arses and do those books you mentioned, but they seem reticent now - there's still no real defined Ent-E or Defiant book (Vulcantouch got me the DS9 tech manual before he died, but it's not much of a Defiant book).

Well, I've always considered myself a Trek tech geek--especially concerning the starships. Even though I really haven't watched Trek since Voyager went off the air, I still keep a running list of established Starfleet ships, though currently it's updated by the lazy method of dropping by D. Joseph Creighton's Star Trek Ships: Expanded list. When the TNG Technical Manual came out, I thought I could die right then having lived a complete and full life. I even reserved two copies of the DS9 Technical Manual just to guarantee I had a copy as soon as possible (bought them both too). I'm still ****ed there was no Voyager manual, though Star Trek: The Magazine helped us out on that some. I know the DS9 Technical Manual was poorly received but a lot of that had to do with the fact that it was written by Sternbach who really didn't work on DS9. His baby from the beginning of the design process forward was Voyager. I think he really could have written something cool.

As far as the -E goes, I got the Simon and Schuster Captain's Chair which did give me quite a bit on that ship but wow I wanted so much more. And I'd love more on the First Contact ships (and we got bits and pieces of that from the DS9 Technical Manual) as I already mentioned, more on Prometheus, more on Equinox . . . just more. I was really excited there a few years ago when information came out that Michael Okuda had shown a select few fans some of the slides from the infamous Slide Show from the Battle of Wolf 359 but that no one was allowed to show the slides themselves because there was a project in the works to put those all into a starship book of some kind. I think that project got eviscerated into the lame Starship Spotter which wasn't even handled by Okuda. Wow, an Enterprise-E Technical Manual, Voyager Technical Manual and a ship-by-ship reference of most of the ships seen written by Okuda and Sternbach. Years ago I could have died happily with the TNG manual, but now I'll be forced to walk the Earth forever because these are never going to be done.

Oh and since I'm randomly ranting about starships, I wish to hell and back that the most recent edition of the Encyclopedia (post-Insurrection) gave the classes and registries of the newer ships. Sentinel, Musashi, Destiny, Sarek, Sitak--I could go on--none of them have established registries and few even are of known class.

JediTricks
04-22-2007, 08:40 PM
I didn't really give it that much thought. In my use, "modern" was just meant to convey the ongoing production continuity (which may not be the word I'm looking for) that began with TNG. And as an aside though I included Voyager in that same era, I was never enormously fond of that series, though it did have its moments. I'm glad no one called me on that.Yeah, I tried to overlook your obvious deficiency in pointing to Voyager as simply a timeline issue, otherwise it would have been a much different discussion path. :p

I see what you mean, but since we're not in the 24th century, that post-TNG-era timeline is actually further from us. It is the "most modern" in the Trek universe though, but that's a complicated concept.


I think my sense that the show lacked maturity goes hand in hand with my feeling that the show all but flashed the words, "THIS IS THE MORAL OF OUR STORY" on the screen during moments which were almost painfully obviously conveying the moral. The Wheel of Morality from Animaniacs could have coveyed the moral with less heavy handedness. My favorite example is the episode where that guy (the Riddler?) has one half of his face black and one half white while the other race in his species had the colors reversed. I've seen more subtle statements on race relations in pop music videos.Anything from season 3, such as the one you cited "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", is going to be less nuanced than the previous seasons, in large part because NBC took production of the show away from Gene Roddenberry and slashed its already shambled budget. But look at Patterns of Force from season 2 where Spock agrees with the theory behind the totalitarianstic fascism of the Space Nazis; or Bread & Circuses where Uhura has to explain to the center chair trinity that the local rebels weren't sun worshipers, they were Son worshipers - the Son of God. The one thing I really liked about Kirk's captaining is that he could recognize the problems of a situation, the inequities and moral ambiguities, but still act when it called upon without question: "blow up the ship to save a few local natives? Let's do it!" His brash nature wasn't for war but for peace, you rarely see someone that sure of humanistic ideals as Kirk.

Sure, the show was unsubtle about its forward-thinking views on issues like race relations, but that was part of the brazen optimism of Gene Roddenberry, he knew in his heart that humanity could get past many of its selfish behaviors, that in 300 years there would be no ambiguity to the questions that plague us today - the right answers to our problems would be non-issues by then and they could move on to their own types of problems. Here's an example of what I mean: today, there's no question that serfdom and slavery are abhorrent, but 300 years ago it was a moral ambiguity and they would probably view our easy opinions on those ideas as ignorant snap judgments.



Really? DS9 did so many quirky episodes and many episodes dropped humor into the mix. If it was simply Odo busting Quark on something or O'Brien and Bashir coming out of the holosuites in full Spitfire pilot regalia drinking to buddies lost--or just the crazy relationship they had in general--there was often something to snicker at. I've always felt DS9 was a show that didn't always feel it had to take itself so seriously. Hell, just given the camp and unintentional humor of TOS, I always felt it would have come off better if it hadn't always tried to be so earnest.IMO, that's not the same, that's a contrast of humor, Jake and Nog do a bunch of cute stuff for us to giggle with, but then they cut away to Sisko brooding about one more misery to befall the galaxy. Any and every attempt at humor was an uneasy mix at best, there was always a solid division between them when it really counted. There was never an episode that ended with Kira and Sisko standing around laughing at a bad pun O'Brien made if the episode was serious throughout.



Well, I've always considered myself a Trek tech geek--especially concerning the starships. Me too, though I generally focus on the onscreen ones heavily and just notice the secondary ones a little.


When the TNG Technical Manual came out, I thought I could die right then having lived a complete and full life. You and me both, I first thumbed through it right after I bought it and really enjoyed it, then a little while later when I was taking a big trip, I read it cover to cover and enjoyed every page thoroughly, even the most theoretical material. (I had the Mr Scott's Guide one, it was good too but nowhere near as complete.)


I know the DS9 Technical Manual was poorly received but a lot of that had to do with the fact that it was written by Sternbach who really didn't work on DS9.Oh, I didn't even realize that was the reason, that explains it a lot!


As far as the -E goes, I got the Simon and Schuster Captain's Chair which did give me quite a bit on that ship but wow I wanted so much more.Same here, that was a fun CD-ROM but woefully underdetailed. Heck, back when First Contact came out, StarTrek.com had more detailed info on the Ent-E as a major feature for the movie and that still wasn't even remotely enough.


I think that project got eviscerated into the lame Starship Spotter which wasn't even handled by Okuda.Yeah, when I saw what became of that project, it was a real head-shaker.


Oh and since I'm randomly ranting about starships, I wish to hell and back that the most recent edition of the Encyclopedia (post-Insurrection) gave the classes and registries of the newer ships. Sentinel, Musashi, Destiny, Sarek, Sitak--I could go on--none of them have established registries and few even are of known class.I fear Berman and the producers no longer care about that stuff, they seem to encourage the designers to get in and out with as little thought as possible, the ship must serve the story and anything else can go to hell - it just has to look the way they want it to look.

Phantom-like Menace
04-23-2007, 12:54 AM
Yeah, I tried to overlook your obvious deficiency in pointing to Voyager as simply a timeline issue, otherwise it would have been a much different discussion path. :p

Thanks for cutting some much needed slack on that one.:razz:


Anything from season 3, such as the one you cited "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", is going to be less nuanced than the previous seasons, in large part because NBC took production of the show away from Gene Roddenberry and slashed its already shambled budget.

You have the most amazing talent for coming up with points that I can only just pause and accept as possibly being true. Most unfortunately my mental Trek encyclopedia has only been losing information for the past several years--especially where it concerns TOS, so I can't remember things like the title to the episode Let That Be Your Last Battlefield.


But look at Patterns of Force from season 2 where Spock agrees with the theory behind the totalitarianstic fascism of the Space Nazis; or Bread & Circuses where Uhura has to explain to the center chair trinity that the local rebels weren't sun worshipers, they were Son worshipers - the Son of God. The one thing I really liked about Kirk's captaining is that he could recognize the problems of a situation, the inequities and moral ambiguities, but still act when it called upon without question: "blow up the ship to save a few local natives? Let's do it!" His brash nature wasn't for war but for peace, you rarely see someone that sure of humanistic ideals as Kirk.

I've always kind of wondered if TNG and all the sequel series didn't suffer a bit for being part of a world where a lot of the TOS ideals have already become fact. I'm sure I just can't see my own time period objectively, but it always seems like their are simply less issues for these later shows to look at. It always seems like the late sixties simply had for more issues for the writers to deal with and far fewer shows really trying to address them. Now it seems like anything Trek tries to deal with is either addressed sixty times a night on broadcast television alone and ninety times on cable or is so deeply taboo that the producers have to scale it back and opt not to do it. Again, maybe I'm just not seeing my time period objectively (and I certainly don't want to imply our time period is anywhere near perfect or that there are not serious issues), and maybe the producers simply lack the juevos to push ahead as they would have back in the sixties. Maybe I could say that there are fewer black and white issues in today's world and far more moral ambiguities, which not only allows more subtlety but necessitates it. It feels more mature to me to come away from the episode with questions rather than a feeling that they characters did the right thing and the only right thing. Certainly not saying I'm right and anyone else is wrong. It's just my preference.

Now that said, I could contradict myself by citing The City on the Edge of Forever. There was certainly no easy answer to that one and the episode came off beautifully. But I will say that kind of uncertainty was the exception to the rule.


IMO, that's not the same, that's a contrast of humor, Jake and Nog do a bunch of cute stuff for us to giggle with, but then they cut away to Sisko brooding about one more misery to befall the galaxy. Any and every attempt at humor was an uneasy mix at best, there was always a solid division between them when it really counted. There was never an episode that ended with Kira and Sisko standing around laughing at a bad pun O'Brien made if the episode was serious throughout.

Ah, the laugh out. Yeah, I haven't watched an episode of TOS in a while so I never even thought about the laugh out. Humor intermixed throughout the episode? I'd still defend the viewpoint that there was a good mix through many of the episodes, but anyone would have to agree (though it's not your point), that DS9 certainly racked up more humorous episodes than any other Trek series, and certainly took more risks than any other. The risk was felt in that some of the humor involved some serious head scratching, but I think more conventional humor would have served better in many places. Think First Contact. It was very dramatic, very action oriented, but most of the humor was fairly conventional save the greatest risk: Cochrane. Not only could he have easily gone over the top but he was a reenvisioning of a character we had already met. I think they did well with it. Cochrane made me laugh with almost every line--still does, but it could have easily fallen flat. Maybe another problem is that the humor was often relegated to the B plot.


Oh, I didn't even realize that was the reason, that explains it a lot!

From what I understand, he had his heart set on a Voyager Technical Manual, which had actually gotten early approval at Pocket Books. I'm wondering--and I'm purely speculating here--if Pocket Books didn't tell him they had to make a DS9 manual first. I can't call up the information on IMDB right now, but I know Sternbach wasn't credited as technical advisor on DS9 and I don't think Okuda was either, and I asked Sternbach a question one time about Defiant and was informed he could only guess because by that time he hadn't worked on Defiant in any capacity. I know Andre Bormanis served as science consultant, but I'm curious how much of the DS9 Technical Manual Sternbach had to make from whole cloth. The TNG Technical Manual was largely based on the technical guide for the writers, and I'm certain Sternbach would have made the guide for Voyager equally as in depth. I read somewhere just how much work in terms of manilla file folder thickness went into his write-up for Voyager but we're working with my time-addled mind.


Same here, that was a fun CD-ROM but woefully underdetailed. Heck, back when First Contact came out, StarTrek.com had more detailed info on the Ent-E as a major feature for the movie and that still wasn't even remotely enough.

Sadly at that time I had no regular access to the Internet. But yeah, it was fun. I wonder if I ever did all there was to do in that. I can barely remember most of it, but I know I unlocked the hidden Klingon bridge from the -D's bridge.


Yeah, when I saw what became of that project, it was a real head-shaker.

I still vaguely think about picking up the Starship Spotter book from time to time but then I think about what it could have been and I just can't bring myself to do it. I've also vaguely thought about picking up the Star Charts book. It looks beautiful--far more detailed than I would expect, and Timo, one of the contributors, was one of those friend of a friend types who hung out online with the Ex Astris crowd. But even at that time my Trek interest was waning.


I fear Berman and the producers no longer care about that stuff, they seem to encourage the designers to get in and out with as little thought as possible, the ship must serve the story and anything else can go to hell - it just has to look the way they want it to look.

Yeah, I'm more than happy to give Berman hell. He's mucked things up pretty well, but he was responsible for much of the goodness that was TNG. I think Berman should have been grooming his own Berman and handed off the reigns when he started to lose steam. As it is, there isn't really any clear successor, and the studio really doesn't need to be making that decision cold. I always say it's ridiculous to think Trek is out of story possibilities since you can literally tell any story in that universe, but I really think they need new blood. People will say Trek needs to cool off for a while and come back in ten or fifteen years, but that just doesn't make any sense to me. Given the right idea, it could come back tomorrow. Now this upcoming movie doesn't seem like the right idea. It seems like the worst possible compromise between Enterprise and TOS.

JediTricks
04-23-2007, 11:19 PM
You have the most amazing talent for coming up with points that I can only just pause and accept as possibly being true. Most unfortunately my mental Trek encyclopedia has only been losing information for the past several years--especially where it concerns TOS, so I can't remember things like the title to the episode Let That Be Your Last Battlefield.I have to force these things, I too have forgotten a lot of the material after years of letting it wane, so I either try to force my brain to recall information or go through a few minutes of research to track down what I can't remember. I'm not sure if I wish I was a walking Trek encyclopedia or if I'm grateful I'm not more of one. ;) (On the other hand, I did actually remember "Patterns of Force" & "Bread & Circuses" for the next part of my post like it was written on my eyelids or something. :p)


I've always kind of wondered if TNG and all the sequel series didn't suffer a bit for being part of a world where a lot of the TOS ideals have already become fact. I'm sure I just can't see my own time period objectively, but it always seems like their are simply less issues for these later shows to look at.That's exactly it, that was the advantage Roddenberry saw in a sequel set a century in the future from TOS, and it made life in TNG's era a tad too homogeneous to be as interesting as its progenitor - BIG WORD ATTACK!!! ;) The challenges of life in Starfleet and the Federation was at the perfect level for immediate drama in TOS, they were still exploring a few of the rough edges of life in outer space, whereas by the time TNG came around life in space had become so safe that they could bring their kids onboard military vessels - the better writers and producers of the TNG era used these advantages of 24th century life to examine issues that TOS couldn't imagine, but there were a lot of instances where post-TNG didn't live up to that.


It always seems like the late sixties simply had for more issues for the writers to deal with and far fewer shows really trying to address them.I guess the most important aspect of the 1960s that drove TOS to higher heights here is the sense of burgeoning exploration of space at that time, TOS predated man walking on the moon - today we treat that with almost a blaze' attitude. Personally, I think the failure is that we have stopped exploring space personally, we've stopped taking greater steps into the final frontier, stopped being excited about going out and physically DOING the exploration, and post-TNG-era reflects that.


Now it seems like anything Trek tries to deal with is either addressed sixty times a night on broadcast television alone and ninety times on cable or is so deeply taboo that the producers have to scale it back and opt not to do it. Again, maybe I'm just not seeing my time period objectively (and I certainly don't want to imply our time period is anywhere near perfect or that there are not serious issues), and maybe the producers simply lack the juevos to push ahead as they would have back in the sixties. Maybe I could say that there are fewer black and white issues in today's world and far more moral ambiguities, which not only allows more subtlety but necessitates it. It feels more mature to me to come away from the episode with questions rather than a feeling that they characters did the right thing and the only right thing. Certainly not saying I'm right and anyone else is wrong. It's just my preference.Voyager and Enterprise suffered so greatly in that area, the whole Xindi thing was a slap in the face to Star Trek, they sold Trek's ideals out for a big action storyline that aped Sept 11th without looking at the greater human story there. Enterprise I think disappointed me most in how little it differed from Voyager's lackluster interest in raw exploration, both series paid space exploration lip service so they could tell these off-the-wall modern stories, but all the while they missed the fact that space exploration could BE the human story. The original Star Trek helped drive man into space, the passion that TOS created made Nichelle Nichols a NASA ambassador and got the very first space shuttle named after the NCC-1701. Today, Trek all but ignores that either for some interpersonal drama with no solid answers, or flashy action sequences.


Now that said, I could contradict myself by citing The City on the Edge of Forever. There was certainly no easy answer to that one and the episode came off beautifully. But I will say that kind of uncertainty was the exception to the rule.Look at the drama there too, the story creates the situational human drama and it works perfectly, even Spock understands how troubling it must be for his comrades to let Edith Keeler die - then you look at TNG's Time's Arrow or DS9's Past Tense or Voyager's Future's End and it's all "safe" by comparison, everybody has a relatively easy time doing what needs to be done, and there's no sense of weight to anything they do.


Ah, the laugh out. Yeah, I haven't watched an episode of TOS in a while so I never even thought about the laugh out.There's also moments where everything's going wrong and the music will lighten up for a second and Scotty will go off to get drunk instead of doing his job - granted, it's a cheap stereotype joke, but it also balances things a little from all the heavy stuff going on up on the bridge.


The risk was felt in that some of the humor involved some serious head scratching, but I think more conventional humor would have served better in many places. Think First Contact. It was very dramatic, very action oriented, but most of the humor was fairly conventional save the greatest risk: Cochrane. Not only could he have easily gone over the top but he was a reenvisioning of a character we had already met. I think they did well with it. Cochrane made me laugh with almost every line--still does, but it could have easily fallen flat. Maybe another problem is that the humor was often relegated to the B plot.What works there is that Cochrane integrated the humor there without compromising who the character was or the integrity of the drama around him, it fit with ease, and I don't think any TNG-and-beyond series has been able to fit humor with ease into their regular episodes.



I'm wondering--and I'm purely speculating here--if Pocket Books didn't tell him they had to make a DS9 manual first.That's very logical.


I can't call up the information on IMDB right now, but I know Sternbach wasn't credited as technical advisor on DS9 and I don't think Okuda was either, and I asked Sternbach a question one time about Defiant and was informed he could only guess because by that time he hadn't worked on Defiant in any capacity.It seems like nobody really knew what the hell was going on with the Defiant, look at the deck layout and it doesn't fit the ship at all, it's from a much earlier, uglier prototype, that's the one they approved for the show itself! Anyway, Okuda was technical consultant on DS9 for 7 eps, and Sternbach was for 3 according to IMDB.



Sadly at that time I had no regular access to the Internet. But yeah, it was fun. I wonder if I ever did all there was to do in that. I can barely remember most of it, but I know I unlocked the hidden Klingon bridge from the -D's bridge.The Klingon bridge was cool, but they needed to have more interactive stuff and details. There wasn't much to see in that CD-ROM actually, same with the Ent-D walkthrough CD-ROM (I don't remember the title, but Jonathan Frakes as Riker narrates it).



I still vaguely think about picking up the Starship Spotter book from time to time but then I think about what it could have been and I just can't bring myself to do it. I've also vaguely thought about picking up the Star Charts book. It looks beautiful--far more detailed than I would expect, and Timo, one of the contributors, was one of those friend of a friend types who hung out online with the Ex Astris crowd. But even at that time my Trek interest was waning.Seems like those in control of the franchise halfass everything now because Trek isn't as enthusiastic a brand as Star Wars - makes me sick. There are so many more ideas and greater things out there to do with Trek than what they're willing to do. Then again, maybe the challenges will create a hunger for it and drive something better to happen.



Yeah, I'm more than happy to give Berman hell. He's mucked things up pretty well, but he was responsible for much of the goodness that was TNG. I think Berman should have been grooming his own Berman and handed off the reigns when he started to lose steam. As it is, there isn't really any clear successor, and the studio really doesn't need to be making that decision cold. I always say it's ridiculous to think Trek is out of story possibilities since you can literally tell any story in that universe, but I really think they need new blood. People will say Trek needs to cool off for a while and come back in ten or fifteen years, but that just doesn't make any sense to me. Given the right idea, it could come back tomorrow. Now this upcoming movie doesn't seem like the right idea. It seems like the worst possible compromise between Enterprise and TOS.I cannot give Berman any credit for TNG's successes, he had so many people looking over his shoulder at that time making sure he lived up to Gene's ideals - hell, back then Nimoy and other Trek bigwigs would come on the lot and talk with Paramount about what was working and what wasn't. It wasn't till Voyager that Berman was given full control, that's coincidentally when Nimoy and the rest got kicked off the lot or walked away, and when it came out that Berman didn't like TOS.

You're right, Trek has a lot of stories left to tell, they just need a hook to get audiences fascinated again, and that hook cannot be a prequel because it's not open-ended. What made telling stories in the Ent-B and -C eras was the storytelling freedom there, you have 80 years of blank history to write, and no worries about using overpowered ideas like Borg or Q or Wesley Dimension-Hopping Crusher.

El Chuxter
04-23-2007, 11:22 PM
BIG WORD ATTACK!!!

I read that and thought you said "Big Bird Attack," and then I thought, "Man, that would be a cool crossover. At least, it would be better than Enterprise."

Droid
04-24-2007, 06:02 PM
I think this is the article JediTricks was referencing about Berman not liking the original series:

http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/1999/10/29/trek/print.html

Very interesting stuff. Really reinforces my views on Generations and Kirk's death.

Phantom-like Menace
04-25-2007, 01:45 AM
Thanks, Droid. Nimoy put my thoughts into words pretty well when he talked about the fertile grounds for stories in the sixties, but I still hold the more ambiguous problems we face today lend a subtlety to the sequels that works just as well for them.

It's interesting to note that the Nimoy article and the article Droid linked to in the Was Nemesis That Bad? thread were both written after Trek started to fizzle (though the Nimoy article was a mere five years after TNG). It would only be expected that some people would be whistful for TOS, but far fewer would have written an article about how Trek needs to be more like TOS back in '93 when TNG was big. Trek doesn't need to harken back--that's not boldy going; it quite simply needs not to suck. It's that straight forward. Not sucking > sucking.

And I'm curious what everyone else thinks, but shouldn't Shatner be blamed for accepting the part that killed Kirk? If he had said no, there would have been no death. I mean he's just as much the keeper of that legacy as anyone else, but I don't hear people complain about his part.

I'd never read about Berman's hating classic Star Trek, but I can partially understand it (cue angry mob). I tend to look at the first season of TNG as being too much like TOS and not enough like its own show. The second season was a little better but it wasn't until the third season that the show really began to stand on its own. TOS was campy and--as I've complained--too in your face. Plus there's the fact that as much as everyone talks about the casting, it was almost all Shatner's ego with Nimoy only really getting any play because he was such a popular character (Bones riding on his coat tails). Now what I disagree with is focusing on all of those negatives. If you hate the bad, that doesn't bother me, but there was a lot of good stuff that came from TOS. If my first exposure to Trek had been seasons 1 & 2 of TNG, I probably never would have become a fan. As it is, I started with TOS which sold me fairly easily. Once TNG came along, it took me those first two seasons to warm up to it (which isn't too surprising since I think it took those first two seasons to warm up).

I don't want to come off as a TOS basher. I loved that series and always will. I just see more improvements from TOS to TNG than I see failings. Though I think TOS's black and white contrast isn't as interesting as TNG and the sequels' gray, I can accept them as different flavors of the same basic idea.


I have to force these things, I too have forgotten a lot of the material after years of letting it wane, so I either try to force my brain to recall information or go through a few minutes of research to track down what I can't remember. I'm not sure if I wish I was a walking Trek encyclopedia or if I'm grateful I'm not more of one. ;) (On the other hand, I did actually remember "Patterns of Force" & "Bread & Circuses" for the next part of my post like it was written on my eyelids or something. :p)

I was particularly proud of myself (Proud? God, I'm a geek!) for remembering a couple of years ago the name of the actress who played Ensign Sito on TNG.


Look at the drama there too, the story creates the situational human drama and it works perfectly, even Spock understands how troubling it must be for his comrades to let Edith Keeler die - then you look at TNG's Time's Arrow or DS9's Past Tense or Voyager's Future's End and it's all "safe" by comparison, everybody has a relatively easy time doing what needs to be done, and there's no sense of weight to anything they do.

Well, if we're just comparing time travel episodes, at least compare the best DS9 time travel episode: The Visitor. Tell me there wasn't any weight to that episode.


There's also moments where everything's going wrong and the music will lighten up for a second and Scotty will go off to get drunk instead of doing his job - granted, it's a cheap stereotype joke, but it also balances things a little from all the heavy stuff going on up on the bridge.

Well, as a person of Scottish heritage (many generations removed) I approve for what little that means.:thumbsup:

JediTricks
04-26-2007, 06:52 PM
I think this is the article JediTricks was referencing about Berman not liking the original series:

http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/1999/10/29/trek/print.html

Very interesting stuff. Really reinforces my views on Generations and Kirk's death.Been so long that I don't even remember where it first came out.

Love that part about Kirk's death being "tragic and humiliating"! Spot-on. Even sadder is that they had to go back and reshoot it because the original version they wrote and shot was even more worthless.

BTW, the article's wrong about this:

Then again, "Star Trek" fans are like Van Halen fans: It's either Dave or Sammy, Kirk or Picard. Never both.Not only do I like Kirk and Picard, I also even tolerate Hagar the Horrible. :p


One source says that Playmates, the company that has manufactured "Star Trek" dolls since 1992, will let its licensing agreement with Paramount expire in December. (A publicist at Playmates won't confirm or deny this.)Wow, has it really been that long ago?

The article's take on Paramount's DVDing of Trek is so funny because Salon didn't know that Robert Wise was special editioning TMP and there was an explosion of DVD right on their heels.


Where does the "Star Trek" franchise go from here? There has long been speculation about a series set at Starfleet Academy, perhaps even as a prequel to the first series. Cynics have long dismissed the notion, brushing it aside as "Dawson's Trek." And Rick Berman, in the October issue of the sci-fi fetishist Starlog magazine, all but quashes any further discussion of a Starfleet Academy series.

"The fact is that I have never been involved in a single discussion about a Starfleet Academy film with anybody at the studio," Berman said. "A Starfleet Academy show would have to be earthbound, to some degree, which I see little value in. And putting young people in jeopardy and having young people dealing with conflict with aliens on a regular basis is not the idea that Gene [Roddenberry] would have been interested in doing. Nor is it a direction I'm interested in going in."What a liar Berman is, we now know that he had several revisions written for a Starfleet Academy prequel to TOS, one that nearly a decade later has morphed into the upcoming JJ Abrams film.




Thanks, Droid. Nimoy put my thoughts into words pretty well when he talked about the fertile grounds for stories in the sixties, but I still hold the more ambiguous problems we face today lend a subtlety to the sequels that works just as well for them.So true, but unfortunately, the reality of the franchise ends your sentence in the words "... in theory" because nobody at Paramount seems to understand how, much less be willing to, really tackle those issues in engaging and fresh ways.


it quite simply needs not to suck. It's that straight forward.That would indeed be a damned good start! But of course studios are run by corporations and suckups who have no clue what is and isn't good.


And I'm curious what everyone else thinks, but shouldn't Shatner be blamed for accepting the part that killed Kirk? If he had said no, there would have been no death. I mean he's just as much the keeper of that legacy as anyone else, but I don't hear people complain about his part.My guess is that Shatner saw something he wanted to be in there when he read the part, and when it didn't translate on-screen, he simply wrote a sequel where it paid off the way he expected. To be fair, they also probably threw gobs of money at him, and Kirk had a lot of screentime compared to the dreck they were to have Spock and McCoy do.


I tend to look at the first season of TNG as being too much like TOS and not enough like its own show.TNG began mainly as Roddenberry's second attempt at ST:Phase II, and while Phase II was perfect for the '70s, it was too directly dependent on TOS to work later - hell, the first episode after the pilot was "The Naked Now", a direct retread of TOS's "The Naked Time". By the middle of season 1 though, they had more writers who weren't just established via TOS and the show started getting more interesting.


The second season was a little better but it wasn't until the third season that the show really began to stand on its own.The same is true of all the sequel series - the 3rd season is where they really show what kind of person they've become, and either they've become mature adults who are unique and capable and self-expanding, or like Enterprise and Voyager, they become sloppy and lazy and stagnant.


I started with the films of the early '80s, then TOS reruns (which I didn't really care for all that much at the time), then TNG which is where I really went ga-ga.



I was particularly proud of myself (Proud? God, I'm a geek!) for remembering a couple of years ago the name of the actress who played Ensign Sito on TNG.Wow, that's pretty detailed stuff. I really disliked her too, so I can't imagine anybody WANTING to remember that. :p


Well, if we're just comparing time travel episodes, at least compare the best DS9 time travel episode: The Visitor. Tell me there wasn't any weight to that episode.Yes yes yes, everybody points to that one as how great Trek could really be, all emotional weighty and such, and it was nominated for a Hugo and named by TV Guide as the best Trek ep ever. :p I still say Jake lives too damned long before he offs himself to really give weight to the story, but yeah, that one is emotionally powerful. However, I will point out that the ep's author, Michael Taylor, had not written for Trek before, it took an outsider to make this powerful post-TNG ep.

Droid
04-26-2007, 10:36 PM
My guess is that Shatner saw something he wanted to be in there when he read the part, and when it didn't translate on-screen, he simply wrote a sequel where it paid off the way he expected. To be fair, they also probably threw gobs of money at him, and Kirk had a lot of screentime compared to the dreck they were to have Spock and McCoy do.


I seem to remember something about Shatner insisting that Kirk had to ride a horse. So I guess it was worth killing Kirk for that moment of cinematic magic (that we also got in Star Trek V). :rolleyes:

Phantom-like Menace
04-27-2007, 01:53 AM
My guess is that Shatner saw something he wanted to be in there when he read the part, and when it didn't translate on-screen, he simply wrote a sequel where it paid off the way he expected. To be fair, they also probably threw gobs of money at him, and Kirk had a lot of screentime compared to the dreck they were to have Spock and McCoy do.

Wow, Shatner's (Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens's) sequel novels. Now that crap insulted Kirk's memory. I read The Return and hated it more than I hated Enterprise. They really seemed to be trying hard to make me hate it too.


The same is true of all the sequel series - the 3rd season is where they really show what kind of person they've become, and either they've become mature adults who are unique and capable and self-expanding, or like Enterprise and Voyager, they become sloppy and lazy and stagnant.

I'm trying to even remember what happened in Voyager's third season.


I started with the films of the early '80s, then TOS reruns (which I didn't really care for all that much at the time), then TNG which is where I really went ga-ga.

Pretty much the same here, but the TOS reruns came before the movies.


Wow, that's pretty detailed stuff. I really disliked her too, so I can't imagine anybody WANTING to remember that. :p

Well, she didn't do much in the first episode, but I always liked Lower Decks (TNG episode titles are still largely retained), and the actress was a bit of a cutie.


Yes yes yes, everybody points to that one as how great Trek could really be, all emotional weighty and such, and it was nominated for a Hugo and named by TV Guide as the best Trek ep ever. :p I still say Jake lives too damned long before he offs himself to really give weight to the story, but yeah, that one is emotionally powerful. However, I will point out that the ep's author, Michael Taylor, had not written for Trek before, it took an outsider to make this powerful post-TNG ep.

Everybody points to it yet it slipped your mind when you were comparing episodes. Tsk, tsk:razz: In all seriousness, though, while I loved that episode, I really can't say it was the best episode of Star Trek ever. Best episode of DS9, maybe, but I really liked the much darker, way less kid friendly "In the Pale Moonlight." That was fairly amazing that Trek would deal with moral ambiguity in that way, and Avery Brooks really made the face to face with the camera work. I'm sure a lot of fans would be divided on that episode because that was quite a turn from the way previous Treks would have handled that. The concept that a Starfleet officer would be an accomplice to premeditated murder and consider it justified to save trillions of lives? That was intense.

Droid
04-27-2007, 11:09 AM
I think the best television episodes in Star Trek would probably be the Best of Both Worlds, but I'm not sure that is fair in ranking since it is a two-parter. I don't think either part on its own is the best episode of Star Trek ever.

JON9000
04-27-2007, 01:30 PM
That's exactly it, that was the advantage Roddenberry saw in a sequel set a century in the future from TOS, and it made life in TNG's era a tad too homogeneous to be as interesting as its progenitor - BIG WORD ATTACK!!! ;) The challenges of life in Starfleet and the Federation was at the perfect level for immediate drama in TOS, they were still exploring a few of the rough edges of life in outer space, whereas by the time TNG came around life in space had become so safe that they could bring their kids onboard military vessels - the better writers and producers of the TNG era used these advantages of 24th century life to examine issues that TOS couldn't imagine, but there were a lot of instances where post-TNG didn't live up to that.

Remember, also, that TOS set up many themes for TNG to explore without having to delve into a great deal of incidental exposition. Indeed, the real world phenomenon of Star Trek and its "mary-sue" fandom created my favorite TNG episode, "Hollow Pursuits", which had the gall to send a rather pointed message to the more fascinated fans of the series.

As for TOS, it is a 60's show, and it is a product of its time. It is almost impossible for the modern mind to emulate the mindset of 1967. Kirk and Uhura shared a kiss. The only equivalent I can think of in the late 80's would have been a man-man kiss during the Reagan-Bush era.

I happen to enjoy the artifacts of the period that show up, such as the light-hearted laugh-in at the end of each show, the over-the-top big-band music... all of that stuff is delightfully Star Trek, and I would never want that stuff changed in an effort to modernize the series.


I think this is the article JediTricks was referencing about Berman not liking the original series:

http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/1999/10/29/trek/print.html

Very interesting stuff. Really reinforces my views on Generations and Kirk's death.

That was a really good article. It completely sums up how I felt about Generations, which was really the end of it for me:

"Three years later, under Rick Berman, Captain Kirk would come out of retirement one last time in "Generations." This time, his would be a tragic and humiliating farewell. Quite simply, Captain Kirk -- the man who cheated death a million times, who saved the universe a thousand more -- fell off a bridge and landed on some rocks. So much for going out with honor."

Also, incidentally, that's the moment Star Trek films began to be scored by the television guy, which further lent a boring tv episode feel to everything.

JediTricks
04-27-2007, 11:48 PM
Wow, Shatner's (Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens's) sequel novels. Now that crap insulted Kirk's memory. I read The Return and hated it more than I hated Enterprise. They really seemed to be trying hard to make me hate it too.Wow, I really was impressed with The Return, I was totally feeling the Trek in that book - it tied together the Borg, Romulans, V'ger, the remaining TOS characters who were alive at that time, DS9, even a Defiant-class!


I'm trying to even remember what happened in Voyager's third season.Season 3 starts with Voyager taken by another crew but taken back by the Doctor and Suder, then a couple of Trek throwbacks - the Excelsior, the trapped Ferengi - the crew go back to 20th century earth, Q visits, Chakotay gets saved by some rogue Borg, and then Voyager teams up with the Borg to face species 8472, and they gain a new crewmember, 7 of 9. There were a LOT of lame episodes throughout.


Pretty much the same here, but the TOS reruns came before the movies.You're in your mid-30s? That'd fit, I'm in my early 30s.


Well, she didn't do much in the first episode, but I always liked Lower Decks (TNG episode titles are still largely retained), and the actress was a bit of a cutie.That Riker wannabe talking about Canada with Riker was painful. :p


Everybody points to it yet it slipped your mind when you were comparing episodes. Tsk, tsk:razz:It only slipped my mind because it's not the same kind of episode, the only thing riding on Jake's shoulders is his father, and it's not much actual Trek going on.


Best episode of DS9, maybe, but I really liked the much darker, way less kid friendly "In the Pale Moonlight." That was fairly amazing that Trek would deal with moral ambiguity in that way, and Avery Brooks really made the face to face with the camera work. I'm sure a lot of fans would be divided on that episode because that was quite a turn from the way previous Treks would have handled that. The concept that a Starfleet officer would be an accomplice to premeditated murder and consider it justified to save trillions of lives? That was intense.ANOTHER ep written by Michael Taylor! :p It's true, that was another of the 4 eps he wrote for the series. I liked the ep, but I think that while he does a good job challenging what the Federation is supposed to stand for, he does a poor job answering it - effective though Garak and Sisko's machinations may be.



I think the best television episodes in Star Trek would probably be the Best of Both Worlds, but I'm not sure that is fair in ranking since it is a two-parter. I don't think either part on its own is the best episode of Star Trek ever.Oh man, I anguished so hard over that 2 parter, I didn't have TV guide and didn't understand the season break so I watched every single rerun that summer waiting for part 2. It's definitely up there around the top.



Remember, also, that TOS set up many themes for TNG to explore without having to delve into a great deal of incidental exposition. Indeed, the real world phenomenon of Star Trek and its "mary-sue" fandom created my favorite TNG episode, "Hollow Pursuits", which had the gall to send a rather pointed message to the more fascinated fans of the series. I don't think Trek should ever get so compliant that they can stop discussing what happens in the situations they encounter, it shouldn't be a gab-fest but I think they always should be able to converse on a subject's pros and cons and all sides rather than just act like it's solved logic.

Hollow Pursuits is good fun, poor Barclay, how does the holodeck not have a friggin' lock???


As for TOS, it is a 60's show, and it is a product of its time. It is almost impossible for the modern mind to emulate the mindset of 1967. Kirk and Uhura shared a kiss. The only equivalent I can think of in the late 80's would have been a man-man kiss during the Reagan-Bush era.

I happen to enjoy the artifacts of the period that show up, such as the light-hearted laugh-in at the end of each show, the over-the-top big-band music... all of that stuff is delightfully Star Trek, and I would never want that stuff changed in an effort to modernize the series.Watching TOS again, I see so much in it that is as true today as it was in the '60s, we still worry about the end of the world, megalomaniacal dictators, equality, and how we affect the universe around us. Sure, some is stuck in the '60s - space hippies are so awful it's hard to even consider their existence - but a lot more of their themes are far ahead of their time.

I think you mean something other than "big band" btw. :p

Phantom-like Menace
04-29-2007, 12:11 AM
Wow, I really was impressed with The Return, I was totally feeling the Trek in that book - it tied together the Borg, Romulans, V'ger, the remaining TOS characters who were alive at that time, DS9, even a Defiant-class!

It tied everything together in a much less satisfying way than the prequels tied everything Star Wars together, that is to say with even more situations relying on too many coincidences. It's been years so almost all I can remember is the ridiculous fight between Kirk and Worf. "Kirk executed the Fat Balding Dragon, Fourth Form. That it was Fourth Form was an insult to Worf's paternity, bladder control, and brand of toothpaste. Worf responded with a flawless Why The Hell Would The Borg Teach You To Sword Fight, Third Form. That it was third form implied that the Borg would have absolutely no reason to teach Kirk to sword fight." The actual fight was funnier though.


Season 3 starts with Voyager taken by another crew but taken back by the Doctor and Suder, then a couple of Trek throwbacks - the Excelsior

I really liked the Sulu episode, if not just because I've always favored the Sulu character and was extremely pleased to see him get command of Excelsior to begin with. That was one reason I was glad Takei turned down Generations since he was inexplicably supposed to do exactly what the Demora Sulu character did despite the fact he was supposed to be out commanding starships.


You're in your mid-30s? That'd fit, I'm in my early 30s.

I turn thirty in October. Star Treks I, II, and III had been out for years before I got hooked on reruns of the series. I've always liked Star Trek IV and really only appreciated II after watching more of the series. Before that, I was always a fan of Star Wars, don't even remember the first time I fell in love with A New Hope. There's a picture of me when I was very young in a barely remembered moment when I was at the mall and a guy dressed like Darth Vader had picked me up and my eyes were huge as I stared face-to-face with the villain himself. My mother swears that was the moment I fell hard for Star Wars.


That Riker wannabe talking about Canada with Riker was painful. :p

No argument there.


ANOTHER ep written by Michael Taylor! :p It's true, that was another of the 4 eps he wrote for the series. I liked the ep, but I think that while he does a good job challenging what the Federation is supposed to stand for, he does a poor job answering it - effective though Garak and Sisko's machinations may be.

Glad you liked it. I've been meaning to show it to a friend for years now, but haven't gotten around to getting the DVD. Trek DVDs are prices way out of my budget what with clones, clones, clones, food, rent, and clones.


Oh man, I anguished so hard over that 2 parter, I didn't have TV guide and didn't understand the season break so I watched every single rerun that summer waiting for part 2. It's definitely up there around the top.

"Mr. Worf . . . fire." That was quite a moment. That was the first episode they started doing the season cliffhangers on wasn't it? None of the rest of them came close though, just imitating.

Droid
04-29-2007, 01:56 PM
"Mr. Worf . . . fire." That was quite a moment. That was the first episode they started doing the season cliffhangers on wasn't it? None of the rest of them came close though, just imitating.

That was back when I never read about shows I watched so I had no idea what was happening next. I thought maybe Patrick Stewart was leaving the show, would be killed in the blast, and that Riker would be in command from then on out with Shelby as his first officer.

JediTricks
04-29-2007, 05:41 PM
It tied everything together in a much less satisfying way than the prequels tied everything Star Wars together, that is to say with even more situations relying on too many coincidences. If it had been a movie, I might agree with that, but as a book I thought it worked well enough. It tied the reasons we went from points A to B to C, etc., together adequately for a book, leaving enough room for the reader to imagine the stuff around that.


It's been years so almost all I can remember is the ridiculous fight between Kirk and Worf. "Kirk executed the Fat Balding Dragon, Fourth Form. That it was Fourth Form was an insult to Worf's paternity, bladder control, and brand of toothpaste. Worf responded with a flawless Why The Hell Would The Borg Teach You To Sword Fight, Third Form. That it was third form implied that the Borg would have absolutely no reason to teach Kirk to sword fight." The actual fight was funnier though.I also haven't read it in years, but the Borg and the Romulans were working together on the project. Plus, I never bought that Worf was some super master swordsman either, the guy in fights is kind of a lumbering blunt instrument rather than a ninja master - he carries himself like he's some sword-carrying nobleman but he fights like a confused, charging rhino.


I really liked the Sulu episode, if not just because I've always favored the Sulu character and was extremely pleased to see him get command of Excelsior to begin with. That was one reason I was glad Takei turned down Generations since he was inexplicably supposed to do exactly what the Demora Sulu character did despite the fact he was supposed to be out commanding starships.Yeah, I liked the Excelsior episode when we were on the Excelsior, I just didn't like the Voyager connection. :p Anyway, I was giving you season 3 highlights.


I turn thirty in October. Star Treks I, II, and III had been out for years before I got hooked on reruns of the series. I've always liked Star Trek IV and really only appreciated II after watching more of the series. Wow, that's unusual, by the time ST4 came out the show was almost out of syndication while 2 and 3 had been building some quality movie momentum.


Glad you liked it. I've been meaning to show it to a friend for years now, but haven't gotten around to getting the DVD. Trek DVDs are prices way out of my budget what with clones, clones, clones, food, rent, and clones.I feel the same way about prices, it's weird because I know the pricing isn't too shabby for 26 hours of TV on DVD, but I can never pull the trigger on $70 seasons. In fact, the only TV shows I own on DVD are Venture Bros seasons 1 and 2. :p


"Mr. Worf . . . fire." That was quite a moment. That was the first episode they started doing the season cliffhangers on wasn't it? None of the rest of them came close though, just imitating.Indeed it was the first season cliffhanger, season 1 ended with the final ep (which didn't feel at all like a season finale, especially after the giant earwigs who had taken over Starfleet the ep before) where the Romulans return and the Enterprise finds 3 doofy people frozen from the 20th century and several outposts on both sides of the neutral zone go missing (later revealed to be the Borg); and season 2 ended with an unbelievably awful clip show where Riker was in a coma and they were stimulating his memories to save him (poor Dr Pulaski's last ep, good riddance tho' :p).



That was back when I never read about shows I watched so I had no idea what was happening next. I thought maybe Patrick Stewart was leaving the show, would be killed in the blast, and that Riker would be in command from then on out with Shelby as his first officer.I somehow always expected Picard would be back and always knew that Shelby was a character we'd be done with very soon, she just felt too obviously tacked on to me. In hindsight, your theory on Patrick Stewart seems like it could have been viable, though I think if they were tailoring Shelby for a regular she would have been introduced earlier.

Phantom-like Menace
05-05-2007, 11:28 AM
As a direct result of this discussion, I had to go to eBay and grab the Star Trek: The Magazine issue with the Nebula-class and I'm going to have to pick up the Intrepid-class issue Sternbach wrote. To this day I'm still not sure why I never picked those up. It seems to speak to the lack of interest I had for Trek at that time.


I also haven't read it in years, but the Borg and the Romulans were working together on the project. Plus, I never bought that Worf was some super master swordsman either, the guy in fights is kind of a lumbering blunt instrument rather than a ninja master - he carries himself like he's some sword-carrying nobleman but he fights like a confused, charging rhino.

Yeah, the Romulans were involved, but they had just as little reason to train Kirk to sword fight. Otherwise, I can't fault Worf for Michael Dorn.


Yeah, I liked the Excelsior episode when we were on the Excelsior, I just didn't like the Voyager connection. :p Anyway, I was giving you season 3 highlights.

Oh yeah, definitely. It was just the one thing of everything you mentioned that I wanted to comment on either way.


Wow, that's unusual, by the time ST4 came out the show was almost out of syndication while 2 and 3 had been building some quality movie momentum.

It might have been a movie either way. We're dealing with my memory.


I feel the same way about prices, it's weird because I know the pricing isn't too shabby for 26 hours of TV on DVD, but I can never pull the trigger on $70 seasons. In fact, the only TV shows I own on DVD are Venture Bros seasons 1 and 2. :p

I borrow TV series on DVD from my brother. I'm even occasionally known to return them.


I somehow always expected Picard would be back and always knew that Shelby was a character we'd be done with very soon, she just felt too obviously tacked on to me. In hindsight, your theory on Patrick Stewart seems like it could have been viable, though I think if they were tailoring Shelby for a regular she would have been introduced earlier.

I didn't figure her for a regular either, but I was always surprised that she didn't show up at least once more. She was a regular in the New Frontier novles, of course, but that doesn't count. I'm still angry at Peter David for those books. The first four or so were cool, but everything afterward just became sex, sex, sex. Who's having it, how they're having it and where they're having it. Everyone on that ship must have had to take maternity leave nine months after that fifth book. I'm no prude but if I wanted that much sex I'd watch a dirty movie, not read a Star Trek novel.

JediTricks
05-06-2007, 04:33 PM
As a direct result of this discussion, I had to go to eBay and grab the Star Trek: The Magazine issue with the Nebula-class and I'm going to have to pick up the Intrepid-class issue Sternbach wrote. To this day I'm still not sure why I never picked those up. It seems to speak to the lack of interest I had for Trek at that time.For me, it's the transitory nature of magazines, I rarely go back to them, not for tech info, not for rereading, not for any purpose. They're too fragile and difficult to catalog and keep track of, and because of their regular nature they're a bit lax in the accuracy and editorial departments. I know some sci-fi fans swear by their various mags, and probably with good reason, but every time I try it's a lost cause.


Yeah, the Romulans were involved, but they had just as little reason to train Kirk to sword fight. Otherwise, I can't fault Worf for Michael Dorn.And yet they obviously did have reason as it did come up. :p I can fault Worf for everything Michael Dorn does, even going back to Dorn as the only guy on CHiPs who didn't ride a f***ing bike! ;)


I borrow TV series on DVD from my brother. I'm even occasionally known to return them.In my family, when one person spends their money on something, we all feel it. :greedy:


I didn't figure her for a regular either, but I was always surprised that she didn't show up at least once more. She was a regular in the New Frontier novles, of course, but that doesn't count.They kept putting these threads into episodes and then forgetting about them so that the books had to pick up where the show left off, that's fine but I know what you mean, they always seem like there's one visit short with what they had in mind. On the other hand, the stuff with Hugh Borg returning, that was 1 visit too far and didn't pay off for crap, then they just ignored it afterwards altogether.


I'm still angry at Peter David for those books. The first four or so were cool, but everything afterward just became sex, sex, sex. Who's having it, how they're having it and where they're having it. Everyone on that ship must have had to take maternity leave nine months after that fifth book. I'm no prude but if I wanted that much sex I'd watch a dirty movie, not read a Star Trek novel.I stayed away from those books just because I could feel the whole thing was ready to slip into troubled waters, and I'm not surprised it did. It's like a backwards version of Battlestar Galactica, they started with sex sex sex and then got into storytelling with far less of it.

I think Trek is really no good at telling sex stories anyway, they have a very specific "advanced" outlook on it that is supposed to be enlightened yet somehow always feels dragged down to soap opera fodder and just plain awkwardness instead (Dr Crusher and ANY guy is a great example of this, that scene with her and Troi doing yoga and talking about toes curling up was like nails on a chalkboard it was so out of place). The great thing about Kirk's sexuality is that it's based on him being a captain, here today and gone tomorrow, a new girl in every port, and it teaches him to use sex as a vantage in certain situations without coming off as a callous scumbag. Kirk & sex is a lot like James Bond & sex in that regard.

Phantom-like Menace
05-11-2007, 12:41 AM
They're too fragile and difficult to catalog and keep track of, and because of their regular nature they're a bit lax in the accuracy and editorial departments. I know some sci-fi fans swear by their various mags, and probably with good reason, but every time I try it's a lost cause.

The primary reason I've grabbed the ST:TM issues I've grabbed in the past is for the visual references of the various ships and even then really only the post-TNG ships. Star Trek's heyday spoiled us in providing plenty of visual references, but after it started to wane, it was pretty much necessary to go to whatever source had the goods.


And yet they obviously did have reason as it did come up. :p

I suppose I can't argue with that logic.;)


I can fault Worf for everything Michael Dorn does, even going back to Dorn as the only guy on CHiPs who didn't ride a f***ing bike! ;)

Well, Dorn couldn't pronounce Klingon for crap either (I absolutely cringed sometimes) but I'm willing to allow Worf's Klingon was a little more authentic. Certainly other Klingons didn't ask him to repeat himself.


They kept putting these threads into episodes and then forgetting about them so that the books had to pick up where the show left off, that's fine but I know what you mean, they always seem like there's one visit short with what they had in mind. On the other hand, the stuff with Hugh Borg returning, that was 1 visit too far and didn't pay off for crap, then they just ignored it afterwards altogether.

Agreed. Even the Lore stuff in that episode was completely unnecessary. Did you ever read the Star Trek Nitpickers Guide? I always laugh at the point the author made about Hugh's return to the Collective. The idea was that his brush with self awareness spread through the Borg. They're the Borg! They assimilate self aware people all the time! Effect on the hive mind: Zero!


I stayed away from those books just because I could feel the whole thing was ready to slip into troubled waters, and I'm not surprised it did. It's like a backwards version of Battlestar Galactica, they started with sex sex sex and then got into storytelling with far less of it.

Peter David has done far better in the past even just by accident. Here his express design sucked and sucked hard. Some of his work on Babylon 5 was very good, and his three-part novel series Reign of Fire (I think I'm getting that name correct--one of thee trilogies along with the Psi Corps and Techno-Mage series) was really, really good B5. Imzadi has always been one of my favorite Star Trek novels. He's capable of good stuff. And I was totally hooked by the first four or five New Frontier books. And I really wouldn't even mind if there was copious sex being had, I just want sex incidental to the plot at least, not the plot incidental to the sex. After six or seven books into New Frontier, I knew more about the sex lives of that crew than my own sex life.


I think Trek is really no good at telling sex stories anyway, they have a very specific "advanced" outlook on it that is supposed to be enlightened yet somehow always feels dragged down to soap opera fodder and just plain awkwardness instead (Dr Crusher and ANY guy is a great example of this, that scene with her and Troi doing yoga and talking about toes curling up was like nails on a chalkboard it was so out of place). The great thing about Kirk's sexuality is that it's based on him being a captain, here today and gone tomorrow, a new girl in every port, and it teaches him to use sex as a vantage in certain situations without coming off as a callous scumbag. Kirk & sex is a lot like James Bond & sex in that regard.

Oh, come one! You didn't find the toss in the hay randomly mutated evolved Paris and randomly mutated evolved Janeway had after warp ten travel randomly mutated evolved them tastefully done? It even resulted in little love amphibians.

As an aside, that was the worst episode of Star Trek ever. I'm not exaggerating. Spock's Brain was Shakespeare compared to Threshold. I wish sci-fi writers could look up the concept of evolution in an encyclopedia and stop assuming evolution has some definite goal in the future. I don't even want to continue calling the various items of bull**** on that episode, though. That would require a whole new thread.

JON9000
05-14-2007, 01:15 PM
I think you mean something other than "big band" btw. :p

As long as YOU know what I mean... :)

JediTricks
05-16-2007, 05:46 AM
This weekend's remastered ep was Meet the Organians... er, "Errand of Mercy". :p Not a lot of remastering going on except for some long shots of Klingon D7s, but we didn't get enough of a look at them to be really excited. Kind of a frustrating episode because everybody has some good points (except Kor, the first Klingon we ever meet in Trek and his honor is questionable here) but the Organians could have saved a lot of trouble by being more direct about the situation with Kirk in the beginning, middle, or even end.

Next week it's Space Nazis with "Patterns of Force"! :D


The primary reason I've grabbed the ST:TM issues I've grabbed in the past is for the visual references of the various ships and even then really only the post-TNG ships. Star Trek's heyday spoiled us in providing plenty of visual references, but after it started to wane, it was pretty much necessary to go to whatever source had the goods.That's a good point, I probably should have been less of a snob about such things. VT, before he died, sent me some of that material but only after snipping out the parts he liked best. :p


Well, Dorn couldn't pronounce Klingon for crap either (I absolutely cringed sometimes) but I'm willing to allow Worf's Klingon was a little more authentic. Certainly other Klingons didn't ask him to repeat himself.He was raised as a young child by humans, I think that'd fit pretty well. Plus, in '87 it's not like there was much Klingon to compare it to, just a few movies and the guys who created it (James Doohan came up with the sounds and Marc Okrand the language) didn't work extensively with Dorn to make his pronunciation right.


Agreed. Even the Lore stuff in that episode was completely unnecessary. Did you ever read the Star Trek Nitpickers Guide? I always laugh at the point the author made about Hugh's return to the Collective. The idea was that his brush with self awareness spread through the Borg. They're the Borg! They assimilate self aware people all the time! Effect on the hive mind: Zero!Yeah, Lore is a big mess in that episode, way over the top too. I own both TNG Nitpickers Guides (the first one didn't finish season 7 while the second covered season 7, Generations, and went over the first 6 seasons with new nitpicks and corrections), but I don't remember it that well. Still, it's an excellent point, I guess the writers were trying to suggest him being a borg and then going back to an individual is what was unique but they didn't really deliver the "why" for crap. They weren't very consistent with the borg in general though - originally they're born borg and only the technology is what they're assimilating.


Peter David has done far better in the past even just by accident. Here his express design sucked and sucked hard. Some of his work on Babylon 5 was very good, and his three-part novel series Reign of Fire (I think I'm getting that name correct--one of thee trilogies along with the Psi Corps and Techno-Mage series) was really, really good B5. Imzadi has always been one of my favorite Star Trek novels. He's capable of good stuff. And I was totally hooked by the first four or five New Frontier books. And I really wouldn't even mind if there was copious sex being had, I just want sex incidental to the plot at least, not the plot incidental to the sex. After six or seven books into New Frontier, I knew more about the sex lives of that crew than my own sex life.He wrote some B5 and then dropped the ball with Trek? I can only assume either he got caught up in the fan interest in the series or the publisher or Paramount made demands of him. And I'm shocked to hear he wrote Imzadi and then went on to do sex drivel, I really liked Imzadi, it was one of the first bigger novels to fit right with the canon, and Imzadi was very nuanced and mature about those relationships. That's a shame that it fell apart.


Oh, come one! You didn't find the toss in the hay randomly mutated evolved Paris and randomly mutated evolved Janeway had after warp ten travel randomly mutated evolved them tastefully done? It even resulted in little love amphibians.Damn you warp 10+!!! Humans as salamanders getting it on is disturbing - especially Janeway and Tom Paris!


As an aside, that was the worst episode of Star Trek ever. I'm not exaggerating. Spock's Brain was Shakespeare compared to Threshold. I wish sci-fi writers could look up the concept of evolution in an encyclopedia and stop assuming evolution has some definite goal in the future. I don't even want to continue calling the various items of bull**** on that episode, though. That would require a whole new thread."Threshold" is considered the worst episode of Trek ever for a damn good reason, yet it won an emmy for makeup (beating out DS9's The Visitor, considered to be among the best of Trek, how ironic is that?). How Brannon Braga could write this tripe and then get put in charge of Trek is totally beyond me.

Droid
05-16-2007, 10:45 AM
Something weird going on with your post JediTricks. It's mostly someone else's comments without your responses.

JediTricks
05-16-2007, 05:58 PM
Something weird going on with your post JediTricks. It's mostly someone else's comments without your responses.
Yeah, I meant to keep responding but it was late and I was so tired I forgot to reply to everything. I have fixed that.

Tycho
05-18-2007, 06:21 AM
The New Star Trek Movie Preview is Here! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=KXsBWgWmj8Q&mode=related&search=)

This looks like it is going to be an awesome movie. All the original cast returns for on-screen appearances! Check it out. It's really clever how they got Bones into it.

JediTricks
05-18-2007, 11:08 PM
Wow, hard to believe In Living Color wasn't canceled after 2 episodes.

JediTricks
05-21-2007, 04:29 PM
Well, last night's TOS remastered ep, Patterns of Force, was great, they didn't have a lot of fx shots to do but the ones they did seemed pretty good, especially the beginning and end fly-bys. The ep itself felt a little rushed, I suspect a little of that comes from the excised 2 minutes for syndication, but it's still a solid tale.

Phantom-like Menace
05-23-2007, 02:13 AM
He was raised as a young child by humans, I think that'd fit pretty well. Plus, in '87 it's not like there was much Klingon to compare it to, just a few movies and the guys who created it (James Doohan came up with the sounds and Marc Okrand the language) didn't work extensively with Dorn to make his pronunciation right.

Actually, the Star Trek I and III are fairly awesome in their accuracy with regard to pronouncing Klingon, but I still say the other Klingons we could compare Worf to in the series were just as bad.


They weren't very consistent with the borg in general though - originally they're born borg and only the technology is what they're assimilating.

Yeah, but I'm willing to forgive them since that changed for BoBW.


He wrote some B5 and then dropped the ball with Trek? I can only assume either he got caught up in the fan interest in the series or the publisher or Paramount made demands of him. And I'm shocked to hear he wrote Imzadi and then went on to do sex drivel, I really liked Imzadi, it was one of the first bigger novels to fit right with the canon, and Imzadi was very nuanced and mature about those relationships. That's a shame that it fell apart.

It's pretty cool that you liked Imzadi. I haven't read it in years, but it's the only Trek novel I've read twice and the first time I read it I finished it in a day. My mother read it and said she was surprised it was written by a man. I always remember when Riker is told he's drunk and he responds that that is a nasty rumor spread by people he's tripped over. Yeah, to this day I have no idea what started what you aptly describe as sex drivel, but I guess the Enterprise writers read and enjoyed it since every episode I forced myself to watch of that series involved someone spreading anti-bacterial gel over a very cold T'Pol, though I'll hypocritically point out that having Hoshi topless and holding her breasts was excellent writing. I might have watched a few moere episodes of that.

JediTricks
05-24-2007, 02:50 AM
Actually, the Star Trek I and III are fairly awesome in their accuracy with regard to pronouncing KlingonWell, they should be, that's the movies that James "Scotty" Doohan and Marc Okrand created it for, respectively - in ST1 Scotty came up with sounds based on the English dialogue the actors were speaking that matched the mouth movements, while in ST3 linguist Marc Okrand went back to Doohan's work on ST1 and used it to create an entire language.


It's pretty cool that you liked Imzadi. I haven't read it in years, but it's the only Trek novel I've read twice and the first time I read it I finished it in a day. My mother read it and said she was surprised it was written by a man. I always remember when Riker is told he's drunk and he responds that that is a nasty rumor spread by people he's tripped over. Yeah, to this day I have no idea what started what you aptly describe as sex drivel, but I guess the Enterprise writers read and enjoyed it since every episode I forced myself to watch of that series involved someone spreading anti-bacterial gel over a very cold T'Pol, though I'll hypocritically point out that having Hoshi topless and holding her breasts was excellent writing. I might have watched a few moere episodes of that.I haven't read it in years either, and I never read sci-fi novels twice, no idea why. :p I guess I like time-travel stories in general, and this one resonated hard.

My guess is the sex drivel in the books is meant to pander to the romance novel audience whom they feel will be more loyal than regular trekkies. As for the shows (from DS9 season 6 and beyond), they seem to be trying to get both the soap opera crowd and the teenage boys out for lust crowd.