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gtrain29
08-05-2003, 01:42 PM
I always thought midichlorians were a dumb idea ruining the magic of fantasy by attempting to make SW more sci fi. Anyway, if these midichlorians are microorganisms living inside your cells, then why don't people just take a blood sample and start culturing these things in labs?
They could replicate gazillions of these "test tube" midichlorians which could then be injected into people where they would take up residence in a "symbiotic" relationship making the host force-sensitive.
In fact, they could set up the midichlorian lab next to the cloners and make an army of jedi instead of soldiers.

I don't know if that had been mentioned before, but the thought occurred to me the other day. I, personally, had never even thought about how someone is able to use the force before the PT, nor did I care. Yoda's & Obi-Wan's explanations of the force were good enough for me. Fantasies like star wars don't need things explained with science. I gave up reading the novels because the writers always tried to make it into science fiction which completely contradicts with the things that made SW great: Jedi & the force, Han's luck, lightsabers actually working, a desert planet being inhabited by giant banthas dewbacks and rontos even though there's no foliage or water, and so on-- these things weren't the point of the story do needed no explanation. Okay, I'm rambling now so I'll stop. But if anyone knows the answer please respond.

stillakid
08-05-2003, 03:09 PM
I always thought midichlorians were a dumb idea ruining the magic of fantasy by attempting to make SW more sci fi. Anyway, if these midichlorians are microorganisms living inside your cells, then why don't people just take a blood sample and start culturing these things in labs?
They could replicate gazillions of these "test tube" midichlorians which could then be injected into people where they would take up residence in a "symbiotic" relationship making the host force-sensitive.
In fact, they could set up the midichlorian lab next to the cloners and make an army of jedi instead of soldiers.

I don't know if that had been mentioned before, but the thought occurred to me the other day. I, personally, had never even thought about how someone is able to use the force before the PT, nor did I care. Yoda's & Obi-Wan's explanations of the force were good enough for me. Fantasies like star wars don't need things explained with science. I gave up reading the novels because the writers always tried to make it into science fiction which completely contradicts with the things that made SW great: Jedi & the force, Han's luck, lightsabers actually working, a desert planet being inhabited by giant banthas dewbacks and rontos even though there's no foliage or water, and so on-- these things weren't the point of the story do needed no explanation. Okay, I'm rambling now so I'll stop. But if anyone knows the answer please respond.

Ask George. It was his dumb idea.

Exhaust Port
08-05-2003, 10:19 PM
I think that the idea of midichlorians creates too many stupid possibilities. It seems that it would be possible to do blood doping with Midichlorians. Instead of boosting your red blood cell count you would boost your Midichlorians and there by boost your Force ability. Having trouble in battle? Take a 200cc shot of pure Midichlorians and you'll be downright invincible.

Dr Zoltar
08-06-2003, 01:31 AM
Sounds similar to the Jedi Knight video games. There was the Valley of the Jedi with some strange artifact that could give or remove Jedi powers. Not that I agree with that. I choose to think that the Midichlorians are a by-product of having the force. Like when one's white blood cell count goes up when one is sick.

stillakid
08-06-2003, 11:10 AM
Sounds similar to the Jedi Knight video games. There was the Valley of the Jedi with some strange artifact that could give or remove Jedi powers. Not that I agree with that. I choose to think that the Midichlorians are a by-product of having the force. Like when one's white blood cell count goes up when one is sick.


So maybe that's what happened to Palpatine in the end. He used too much Force, overloaded his system, and they exploded outward. Hmm?

Interesting rationalization for it, like JediTricks has mentioned. There are still weird problems with the concept plus the fact that it doesn't mesh at all with the original trilogy, but if we have to reconcile the Prequels somehow, it's a start.

In the end, I'll go to my death bed believing the George just randomly tossed them in as a cheap and easy way to "show" that Anakin had Force potential...and did so without thinking through the ramifications for the rest of the story. He did it with this element in the Prequels as well as other things, so there is definitely a case to be made for my argument.

Imperial Monarche
08-11-2003, 09:30 AM
Well, I'm not personally agreeing or disagreeing with the midichlorian concept, nor do I really care, but frokm the way I understood Qui-Gon's explanation of them, everyone has midichlorians. Those that have more are more force sensitive, but even that, everyone has the ability to use the force. He said that "when you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them". the problem with most people is that they are too impatient to quiet their mind, or maybe the more of a count you have, the easier it is to listen to them. And with that cloning Jedi stuff, maybe the midichlorians are built for one person only and do not exisit in a symbionic relationship with someone else. This is all speculation seeing how Lucas set up the whole thing and went absolutely nowhere with it...yet. That's the problem with some of us that complain about a certain idea introduced in the prequals that seem like they were just thrown in cause Lucas didn't want to think, we haven't finished the trilogy. After Ep.III comes out and there's still no more mention of them, then I'll be like, Yeah, that was dumb. But, some of you have said there doesn't need to be explanations in fantasy. Why? Everything needs some kind of explanation behind it, others wise then it becomes a dumb idea that just comes out of nowhere. The prequals were basically an "explanation trilogy". Some need to learn to understand that because they are almost over.

gtrain29, you said that he is turning this saga into science fiction...aren't they suppose to be? walk into a video store and ask them where star wars is located in the store, see what section they take you too.

stillakid
08-11-2003, 05:30 PM
gtrain29, you said that he is turning this saga into science fiction...aren't they suppose to be? walk into a video store and ask them where star wars is located in the store, see what section they take you too.


Just my take on that very interesting question...

What makes Star Wars most interesting to me, anyway, as opposed to other "sci fi" like Star Trek or Babylon 5, for instance, is that it hasn't gone the way of "techy" storytelling which tends to be the fallback position of most "space" tales. Star Wars has far more in common with a western or opera or fairy tale than anything else we've seen set in space. It spawned the idea that space movies didn't have to be all about flying saucers and weird guitar feedback for a soundtrack. Instead, we have been treated to symphonic accompaniment (John Williams), horrific thrills (ALIEN), incredible action (ALIENS, ID4) and other filmmaking innovations because of it. The story is the thing which drew most of us here some 25 years ago and that is what we were seeking above all else when we flocked back to the theater for Episode I.

Jaff
08-21-2003, 11:20 PM
Just listen to the little parisites infesting your body and you'll be one with this desperate excuse to explain jedi powers to the unimaginative masses. In fact Jedi are trill based on the race from Star Trek!!!


As you can see I don't like the concept of Midi"thingamagigs". In fact each time I watch the film I try to ignore the conversations where they are mentioned. Thank god they were not mentioned in the next film. I know Midichlorine tablets are part of the SW universe now, but if you want me to accept it you'll have to torture me!!!! :cry:

Kidhuman
08-23-2003, 04:18 PM
Okay, sitting here reading this thread something dawned on me.

There was no need to explain Midichlorians in the Ot. There were only 3 Jedi's that were shown, Ben, Luke, Yoda. They both knew he had high levels most likely. So there was no need to explain it.

Now, in the Prequels, there are many Jedi running around. The werent thought of as extinct yet. This is the way the figured out who had the most potential and how to rank them in the academy. With the showing of more Jedi, there was a need for an explanation. They would go from planet to planet with there level counters and all. If they were doing that in the OT they would have been found out. Instead they knew who would have the best chance to take out vader and concentrated one last ditch effort into Luke.

Make any sense?

stillakid
08-23-2003, 07:05 PM
There was no need to explain Midichlorians in the Ot.
....Make any sense?

Well, beyond the existence of them in the first place causing problems with character development and the way the audience was originally meant to perceive Luke (empathy vs sympathy), the question of explanation comes up during Luke's hastened training. As you correctly point out, there are only three Jedi during that time. But Luke is never fully ready for at least 2/3 of that time and Obi dies fairly soon in the story. So the necessity to get Luke out of the blocks sooner than later becomes apparent lest the Sith have no true adversaries.

Which brings us to the question: if Luke's expedited training was indeed so necessary to the struggle, why wouldn't Ben or Yoda tell Luke about the Midi's? :confused: Instead of droning on and on about "the nature of the Force" and "feelings" and other intangibles, why wouldn't they have cut to the chase and given Luke the shortcut to understanding how and why humans can use this mysterious Force?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? :confused:

Kidhuman
08-23-2003, 10:23 PM
It wouldnt have mattered if they had. He was their last shot at it. No need to confuse the poor kid even more. If his midi count was 1 or if it was 1,000,000 it really did not matter. They waited 18 years for him. Why bother to give him info that he really has nothing to do with anything. It would have been like training him for apple picking and explaining oranges to him.

stillakid
08-23-2003, 10:34 PM
It wouldnt have mattered if they had. He was their last shot at it. No need to confuse the poor kid even more. If his midi count was 1 or if it was 1,000,000 it really did not matter. They waited 18 years for him. Why bother to give him info that he really has nothing to do with anything. It would have been like training him for apple picking and explaining oranges to him.


What do you mean "confuse"? :confused: Like "Stretch out with your feelings" is crystal clear?! If somebody told you to do that, what on earth would you do? What exactly does it mean to "stretch out with your feelings"?

However, if somebody sat you down and said, "Look, there's this thing we call the Force which is some kind of energy field which holds it all together. Somebody a long time ago figured out a way to tap into it so we can levitate stuff, read minds, see the future...crap like that. Cool, huh?" You say, "F'in yeah! How do I do it?" "Now don't freak out or anything, but there are these little microscopic creatures our scientists found swimming around in our cells which seem to be the bridge. If you quiet your mind enough, you can actually communicate with them enough so that you are able to tap into this Force thingie."

Okay, so you choose. Would you be more confused by someone explaining the mechanism of how this works? Or by somebody tossing out bumper sticker sayings like "Stretch out with your feelings"?


The Rebellion was up against a wall. It's only hope was this kid. (In a universe where Midi's existed...they didn't until the late 1990's) the remaining Jedi Masters should have been wise enough to cut to the chase and get the kid up and running as soon as possible. They didn't know if he'd understand the training or not, and in fact, when he left Dagobah it sure seemed to them like he didn't. Now suppose just for a second that Yoda or Ben had sat down and explained the mechanism to the kid. Get that part of the training out of the way a whoooollllee lot sooner and they would have had more time to talk about control and patience. But noooooo. Luke had to "stretch out with his feelings" whatever the hell that means.

Kidhuman
08-23-2003, 11:07 PM
It basically means kick bac, relax and let yourself go. Sense what is around you. Maybe they did tell Luke about thewm. Maybe by then it was basic knowledge about Midi's and they learned it in school. All I know is there was no need for an explanation in the ot because of the three of them. If there were dozens and the academyopened were people were brought in for training. They had tosee who goes were. Who will be a Jedi, depended on the Midi, count. Luke had no choice. He basically was thrown into it. He knew his dad was one and when he saw ben he basically said, here I go. He took off with training, and went foward. Midi's didnt have anything todo with training. It just told you how strong the force was in you. Anakin's happened to be off the meter. They knew Luke had them. Midi counts have nothing to do with learning how to stretch your feelings.

Jaff
08-24-2003, 01:53 AM
Quoted from Kidhuman

They would go from planet to planet with there level counters and all. If they were doing that in the OT they would have been found out. Instead they knew who would have the best chance to take out vader and concentrated one last ditch effort into Luke.

Make any sense?

I don't think that midiclorians do make sense, because they are really not needed. Jedi can sense the force. Qui-Gon could sense there was something about Anakin. I always believed that the force is analagous to being in the water. Jedi are dudes that are in the water, and whenever one of them used the force they could sense the ripples moving around them. Ordinary folks who don't have any Jedi powers would not notice ripples because they are not aware of them. So in Episode I Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan can sense that someone is using the force out of the ordinary. This was Palpy hiding himself from the Jedi. In Empire the Emperor calls on Vader saying: "There's a disturbance in the force." The translation is "that lame brain boy of yours is out there using the force and is training somehow, we gotta do something!" TO me it is an emotional mental ability to sense those who can use the force. I think that was why in the book Obi-Wan felt threatened by Jango Fett during their meeting in his appartment. They can feel the awareness and potential of others. Midichlorians take away Jedi's ownership of their own powers, and belittles the concept of the force. Nowadays audiences don't think mentally, they think visually, that's why explosions and Special effects are more popular than intelligent, thought out scripts. This goes for SW, people can't use their imagination to figure out the force, so they have to be shown what it means (present company excluded of course), and I think it was a lame concept as I said before in my previous post.

Kidhuman
08-24-2003, 12:51 PM
All midi's do is measure how much someone can feel that ripple in the water. All I am saying is there was no need to explain that in the OT, hence no mention of it. They werent going around recruiting in the OT. They bet the ranch on one person. That was it.

Fast foward(our time), rewind(story time) to the prequels. There is a ton of Jedi's. How do they know how strong the force is a certain person? Midichlorians. They use it to measure ones strength with the force. That is it. It doesnt say if you have more you are better than the next. Anakins are higher than Yodas. Yoda can channel it the force better than Anakin. It is like beating someone up twice the size of you. They might have more muscle mass but dont know how to use it.

Being that there was no need to recruit Luke, they just ambushed him. Obi-Wan knew what he was doing. Was he hiding out on Tatooine or did he just show up there to get Luke? Was he on Dagobah? How did he know Yoda was there? I say it was all planned on in advance when they hid him. No midi's necessary(sp?) there. It was a last ditch effort to restore balance to the force. One shot, no need for explanation.

My opinion, were they needed........no.
Is it stupid..........probably.

There was no mention of Midi's in any of theother movies, just in TPM. It is not needed in any other story. Just a quick explanation of how much potential a person has. Anakin was supposed tobe the strongest of all Jedi. He has the highest count. If he could of controlled it, then we wouldnt of had the OT in basic sense. He would have been able towipe out the Sith with ease.

Jaff
08-24-2003, 01:09 PM
Your right on those points kidhuman, I guess Midi's just drive me nuts. In the end I think the Jedi could find out about all the jedi hopefuls just by being near them and feeling their powers that echoed around them. It's a feeling, making it into a science just stinks. It's like people who can read minds, they can just sense when someone around them is dangerous, or had potential.

TheDarthVader
08-25-2003, 11:01 PM
Just because midi's weren't in the OT doesn't mean they weren't in the OT...okay I know, you don't follow me. Here are some examples:

1. In ROTJ Luke has constructed a lightsaber. How did he know how to do that? I didn't see any part in the movie that showed us how he learned to make a lightsaber. :confused:
2. In ROTJ Luke proves to be a worthy lightsaber combatant versus Darth Vader. Wait!! I didn't see in the OT were Luke learned to combat so elegantly...? or practiced using a lightsaber against another lightsaber. :confused:

Possibly Yoda did tell Luke about Midi's...we just didn't see it.

stillakid
08-25-2003, 11:15 PM
Yeah great, but you're ignoring my question: Why didn't anyone tell Luke about them onscreen? It was the obvious and most non-confusing path to understanding how to actually use the Force and neither of the Jedi Masters mentioned it even once. Instead they used lofty and unspecific phrases which meant nothing really. So instead of Luke becoming a Jedi in just 1 and a half films, it takes him twice the time.

But that's not the only problem with Midi existence, but I don't feel like jumping back into that right now.

Kidhuman
08-25-2003, 11:23 PM
Yeah great, but you're ignoring my question: Why didn't anyone tell Luke about them onscreen? It was the obvious and most non-confusing path to understanding how to actually use the Force and neither of the Jedi Masters mentioned it even once. Instead they used lofty and unspecific phrases which meant nothing really. So instead of Luke becoming a Jedi in just 1 and a half films, it takes him twice the time.

But that's not the only problem with Midi existence, but I don't feel like jumping back into that right now.


Ben really didnt teach him much. So he gets ruled out. Yoda tought him a few flips and how to levitate objects. Then when we see him next he is dead. I am sure as a ghost they couldnt of told him because they didnt have the time. And I goback to my original point that there was no need to explain it to him. Anakin never hadit explained to him. Just a quick blood sample, he went for a nap and Qui-Gon talked to Ben about it. So, does Anakin know about them? No one explained what they do or how they work. Just that they were off the scale and the more you had the more potential you had with the force. So as the old saying goes "Don't sweat the little things" Le tit be. Dont lose sleep over Midi's.

stillakid
08-25-2003, 11:37 PM
Ben really didnt teach him much. So he gets ruled out. Yoda tought him a few flips and how to levitate objects. Then when we see him next he is dead. I am sure as a ghost they couldnt of told him because they didnt have the time. And I goback to my original point that there was no need to explain it to him. Anakin never hadit explained to him. Just a quick blood sample, he went for a nap and Qui-Gon talked to Ben about it. So, does Anakin know about them? No one explained what they do or how they work. Just that they were off the scale and the more you had the more potential you had with the force. So as the old saying goes "Don't sweat the little things" Le tit be. Dont lose sleep over Midi's.

I disagree, there is no good reason for them to not give Luke the shortcut to Force use (aside from Lucas actually inventing them in the late 1990s of course). So we can leave it at that. :)

But the bigger problem with Midi's is that now, instead of Luke Skywalker being "one of us," a normal human being, someone we can empathize with, he is instead a superhuman with superpowers and potential that normal audience members could never relate to. In the 1977 version of Star Wars, Luke was just a naive farmboy who gets caught up in events much bigger than he ever could have dreamed of. Through his own strength and perserverence, he overcomes the greatest challenges in the galaxy. But now, with Midi's in the mix, he's got a leg up already and is predisposed to success. The insurmountable challenge from 1977 is reduced to a minor obstacle that Luke obviously can easily survive. The boy is a superhero, of course he'll win. But before, pre-Midi's, it wasn't necessarily a foregone conclusion.

Jaff
08-26-2003, 12:46 AM
The midichlorian debate is basically about two points of view. Either you see the force as a biological dependancy, or as a mental grasp of the environment one lives in. Either way it gives a person extraordinary understanding and awareness of life and manipulating the laws of nature.

I myself must be inept on this subject because I go with the second explanation rather than Midi's even though it is a part of SW.

As for Luke learning about a lightsaber, it was three years between SW and Empire. Luke is a tinkerer like his father, it's quite possible he could have taken apart the saber several times to figure out how it works and had a fundamental grasp of how to create the device before he lost his first saber.

The debate about why wasn't Luke told about Midi's can be approached two ways. Either you accept midi's as a law since it was in Episode I and you would be right to think that, therefore you would wonder why they would not have told Luke. To them: What would it matter to tell him, they had just enough time to show him a few tricks of the trade, and not enough time to teach him all the details of the Jedi, and their order! If you do not accept the Midi-issue (like stuborn Jaff) ignore the Midi problems because you do not accept them. However I like for others to challenge my perception of SW so I don't think I'm a know it all like some surfers. So can someone please convince me why midi's would make more sense existing than not existing without saying that Jedi are X-men. In my opinion I believe that Midi's defeat what SW is about. In Episode IV, when Luke was in the trenches he was using the targeting device, and Ben's voice said "Let Go". He turned off the machine and used his instinct by faith. Faith in one's ability is a constant theme in SW. By entering Midi's it turns the film into Faith in Parasites.

Please note that I am not bashing my opinion on heads, just giving a blunt opinion. I respect all of your thoughts, and that's why I really want someone to either say, your right or wrong. If I'm wrong make me see it!

stillakid
08-26-2003, 01:13 AM
The debate about why wasn't Luke told about Midi's can be approached two ways. Either you accept midi's as a law since it was in Episode I and you would be right to think that, therefore you would wonder why they would not have told Luke. To them: What would it matter to tell him, they had just enough time to show him a few tricks of the trade, and not enough time to teach him all the details of the Jedi, and their order! If you do not accept the Midi-issue (like stuborn Jaff) ignore the Midi problems because you do not accept them. However I like for others to challenge my perception of SW so I don't think I'm a know it all like some surfers. So can someone please convince me why midi's would make more sense existing than not existing without saying that Jedi are X-men. In my opinion I believe that Midi's defeat what SW is about. In Episode IV, when Luke was in the trenches he was using the targeting device, and Ben's voice said "Let Go". He turned off the machine and used his instinct by faith. Faith in one's ability is a constant theme in SW. By entering Midi's it turns the film into Faith in Parasites.


Just to quickly address one of those statements which is obviously directed at me, I'm not a "know it all" and it hurts to be perceived as such. What I do is examine what is actually there. It's not my fault that there are incongrueties. Sure, we could all bury our heads in the sand and pretend that everything is hunky dory, but where's the fun in that? ;)

Anyhow, for me it's not a question of whether Midi's exist in the Saga or not. Obviously they do. They show up in Episode I. The question is why are they there in the first place? As noted numerous times, they weren't mentioned in the OT and more importantly (as said by both camps), weren't necessary. A generation grew up believing, just as Jaff and myself, in a human (Luke) who merely used this mysterious Force to achieve great things. It was a spiritual journey...not a technical achievement.

For a variety of reasons, it's clear to me that George merely inserted Midi's into the story as a tangible device to quickly and clumsily show that Anakin had Force potential. Nothing more. Nothing less. Why? Who knows. Maybe he doubted the ability of kids to pick up on more subtle ways of showing this so he felt the need to bash us all over the head. Maybe he was too lazy to figure out a better way to achieve this. Or maybe he was too egotistical to hire the WGA writer who he had actually asked (but then refused to pay the Guild fees to).

But regardless, it's painfully obvious that Midi's didn't even exist until sometime after the OT was completed which means that as an element in the Saga, any attempts by any of us (George included) to rectify the new additions from the Prequels with the story as told in the current OT are nothing more than rationalizations, at least until George reedits the OT for DVD release. Any new addition (if it's a problem) can certainly be "reasoned" enough to make it fit either by flatly ignoring any problems or by concocting elaborate excuses to justify them. And I think that this is the major point of contention between fans like myself, who would rather see it all just work out, and others who don't mind coming up with the band-aids and say things like "just enjoy it for what it is."

Jaff
08-26-2003, 11:25 PM
Posted by stillakid

Just to quickly address one of those statements which is obviously directed at me, I'm not a "know it all" and it hurts to be perceived as such. What I do is examine what is actually there. It's not my fault that there are incongrueties. Sure, we could all bury our heads in the sand and pretend that everything is hunky dory, but where's the fun in that?

I can't respond to this as I had never intended to target you stillakid! I'm just gonna ignore this paragraph like I stubornly ignore Midiclorine monsters!

Posted by Stillakid

Anyhow, for me it's not a question of whether Midi's exist in the Saga or not. Obviously they do. They show up in Episode I. The question is why are they there in the first place? As noted numerous times, they weren't mentioned in the OT and more importantly (as said by both camps), weren't necessary. A generation grew up believing, just as Jaff and myself, in a human (Luke) who merely used this mysterious Force to achieve great things. It was a spiritual journey...not a technical achievement.

O.K., O.K., they do exist, your point is on target, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. You are exactly right that I saw SW as a spiritial journey, and now the concept of the force has lost ALLOT of magic. I think in response to your question as to why midi's are in the film is because now days 90% of american audiences do not have a fraction of immagination to even concieve the spirituality of the force, so he adjusted the the concept to please the masses, and unknowling betrayed those who valued the spiritual concepts of SW.

Posted by Stillakid

For a variety of reasons, it's clear to me that George merely inserted Midi's into the story as a tangible device to quickly and clumsily show that Anakin had Force potential. Nothing more. Nothing less. Why? Who knows. Maybe he doubted the ability of kids to pick up on more subtle ways of showing this so he felt the need to bash us all over the head. Maybe he was too lazy to figure out a better way to achieve this. Or maybe he was too egotistical to hire the WGA writer who he had actually asked (but then refused to pay the Guild fees to).

Amen to this entire point.

Posted by Stillakid

But regardless, it's painfully obvious that Midi's didn't even exist until sometime after the OT was completed which means that as an element in the Saga, any attempts by any of us (George included) to rectify the new additions from the Prequels with the story as told in the current OT are nothing more than rationalizations, at least until George reedits the OT for DVD release. Any new addition (if it's a problem) can certainly be "reasoned" enough to make it fit either by flatly ignoring any problems or by concocting elaborate excuses to justify them. And I think that this is the major point of contention between fans like myself, who would rather see it all just work out, and others who don't mind coming up with the band-aids and say things like "just enjoy it for what it is."

Well I am one of those just enjoy it for what it is types but everytime I hear the midi chlorian things in the film it deffinately takes something away from the films. Here's why I challenged anyone to strongly debate for midi's in hopes that I can actually tolerate the scenes where they are mentioned. Is there anyone out there who actually likes the midi concept, and who can make sense of it so that I can watch the films thinking that jedi are special folks who are not only the way they are because of parasites talking to them. I hate whincing in Episode I because I really liked that episode!

TheDarthVader
08-26-2003, 11:55 PM
But the bigger problem with Midi's is that now, instead of Luke Skywalker being "one of us," a normal human being, someone we can empathize with, he is instead a superhuman with superpowers and potential that normal audience members could never relate to.

Maybe true...but nothing can change this. Um.....don't be a Star Wars fan anymore? I don't know. Midi's are a fact and can not be undone. It is finished...it is over. Can't we move on? Or shall we fuss and groble about it? Let's send Lucas hate mail!! That will help.

I have learned to accept things I can not change about Star Wars. It is not really our story...it is Lucas' story...it all came from his brain.

DarthChuckMc
08-27-2003, 12:21 AM
I found this theory over at TheForce.net:

Life creates the Force and makes it grow, beginning at the cellular level. The Force, in return, lends its power to either the generation of bodies or the modifying of organelles within the cell that will channel its energies and adapt the cell to the Force it is creating. These bodies are the midi-chlorians. Midi-chlorians are a living, vital part of the cell and also a living part of the Force... they do not create the Force, but they do connect all life to the Force. Wherever life is, Force is created. Where the Force is created, it uses midi-chlorians to establish itself within the cell as the most basic manifestation of the Force on the physical plane. Where the Force is within a cell (meaning all cells), there will be midi-chlorians. They are "cells" of the Force within life, just as all life resides within the Force in a symbiont circle.


The greater the amount of Force is being generated by an organism, the higher the amount of midi-chlorians per cell within that organism. Strength in the Force is a dominant trait that is passed on from parent to offspring. It is NOT passed down by inheriting the midi-chlorians! Instead, as strength is inherited, so too will go the production of midi-chlorians in proportion to strength in the Force.


The greater the amount of midi-chlorians, the more potential exists within a person to use the Force. A greater amount of midi-chlorians allows for a greater "sense" of the Force, whether the person is intimately aware of the Force or not. This greater exposure puts the person more "in tune" with the flow of the Force, its guidance and its delivering a person to destinations and situations according to its "will" (whether the Force is actually a sentient being as much as anyone else is not discussed in this theory).


A person can gain strength in the Force by training and dedication to the Force. As strength increases, midi-chlorian levels would logically increase. A person can NOT become stronger in the Force by transferring midi-chlorian rich blood or other tissue from another person. However, a clone of a person with the genetic tendency towards Force-ability would have the same midi-chlorian levels. They would still require learning the disciplines of the Force to make effective use of it, however.


In seeking the Force, a person can choose to abide by its flow or to work against it. Working with the Force means using it to help others grow, leading for growth in the Force as well. To work against the Force means to take from it without recompense, for selfish and evil gain.

stillakid
08-27-2003, 09:55 AM
I found this theory over at TheForce.net:

Life creates the Force and makes it grow, beginning at the cellular level. The Force, in return, lends its power to either the generation of bodies or the modifying of organelles within the cell that will channel its energies and adapt the cell to the Force it is creating. These bodies are the midi-chlorians. Midi-chlorians are a living, vital part of the cell and also a living part of the Force... they do not create the Force, but they do connect all life to the Force. Wherever life is, Force is created. Where the Force is created, it uses midi-chlorians to establish itself within the cell as the most basic manifestation of the Force on the physical plane. Where the Force is within a cell (meaning all cells), there will be midi-chlorians. They are "cells" of the Force within life, just as all life resides within the Force in a symbiont circle.


The greater the amount of Force is being generated by an organism, the higher the amount of midi-chlorians per cell within that organism. Strength in the Force is a dominant trait that is passed on from parent to offspring. It is NOT passed down by inheriting the midi-chlorians! Instead, as strength is inherited, so too will go the production of midi-chlorians in proportion to strength in the Force.


The greater the amount of midi-chlorians, the more potential exists within a person to use the Force. A greater amount of midi-chlorians allows for a greater "sense" of the Force, whether the person is intimately aware of the Force or not. This greater exposure puts the person more "in tune" with the flow of the Force, its guidance and its delivering a person to destinations and situations according to its "will" (whether the Force is actually a sentient being as much as anyone else is not discussed in this theory).


A person can gain strength in the Force by training and dedication to the Force. As strength increases, midi-chlorian levels would logically increase. A person can NOT become stronger in the Force by transferring midi-chlorian rich blood or other tissue from another person. However, a clone of a person with the genetic tendency towards Force-ability would have the same midi-chlorian levels. They would still require learning the disciplines of the Force to make effective use of it, however.


In seeking the Force, a person can choose to abide by its flow or to work against it. Working with the Force means using it to help others grow, leading for growth in the Force as well. To work against the Force means to take from it without recompense, for selfish and evil gain.


Hmm, I have to ponder this one for a few days I think. But on the surface, it sounds like a perpetual motion machine, which, as we know, is impossible in the physical universe. It's like saying that your car runs on gas and the more you use the car, the more gas ends up in the tank which lets you use the car even more. The problem is that you need some gas in the tank to begin with. And where does the new gas actually come from?

But, I'll think about it...:)

Jaff
08-27-2003, 08:18 PM
Darthchuck thanks for that information, midi"sense" is now a little more clear to me, and with that said, I'm going to watch the films again with this new point of view. As I watch them I'm hoping I can take the midi issue with more enjoyment

And not to be mean to anyone, this thread is about midi's, and it is a debate. I think the converse should go on whether it sounds hateful or not so that we can better explore this topic.

stillakid
08-28-2003, 12:30 AM
Ok, after a day of thought about this it is clear that that explanation is bunk when applied to the events in Episode I.

Why you ask?

What we know from TPM:

A. Anakin has oodles of Midichlorians
B. Anakin is NOT trained to use The Force

What we can discern between the lines from TPM:

A. Aside from the occasional and INADVERTENT use of The Force by Anakin (presumably during his occasional podrace and from the occasional episode of fortunetelling as described by Schmi), Anakin does not really use the Force at all.


What does all this mean when coupled with the above detailed definition of Midichlorians? The definition explains quite clearly that Midichlorians result from regular and sustained "use" of The Force. Meaning, moderate to semi-heavy use, as a Jedi-in-training might utilize, would result in a "normal" amount of Midichlorians in the system. However, we were told that Anakin had a record amount of Midichlorians in his system which would imply that he was a heavy user of The Force. We KNOW that Anakin does NOT fit the definition of a regular or trained user at the time of the infamous Midi-measurement by poor Obi Wan (stuck in the ship). So the question arises: if Anakin does not really use The Force often in the manner described as being necessary for Midichlorian replication, then where did he get so many of them? Once again, the after-market rationalization falls short of explaining away an incongruity in the film. sigh.

DarthChuckMc
08-28-2003, 01:48 AM
I'm trying to come up with a reasonable explanation, but I'm high on codine right now, so I'll try and make this semi-intelligent.

GL used many sources when creating the SW stories. Everything from Jesus Christ, to King Arthur, to The Hero's Journey, yadda yadda yadda. Stuff that most of us have probably heard of, and can relate to.

My take is, like Jesus, Anakin was created by a Higher Power, in this case, Midichlorians. In Christianity, it is believed that GOD lives in all of us, in everything, much the way that Yoda describes the Force, in TESB.

My theory is that Midichlorians represent GOD, and like GOD, the midichlorians saw that things in the universe just weren't going so well. So, the midichlorians, out of necessity, created Anakin, so that he could come and set the universe back in line, much like Jesus was sent to take away everyone's sins, and make the world an all around better place.

Now, according to that theory (the one I posted last night), you gain more midichlorians by using the Force more often, but, it doesn't say that your midichlorian count deminishes if you DON'T use the Force, you just won't get any stronger in the Force. Anakin, being created by the Force, had an alarmingly HIGH count of midi's from birth. Once he was taken into the Jedi Order, and started learning how to use the Force properly, and by quieting his mind like Qui-Gon told him, then his count started to increase, making him that much more powerful.

Also, by that first theory, everyone has Midi's, some are born with higher counts than others. The Jedi, as seen in Ep 4, 5, & 6, can sense when another person strong in the Force is around. In the PT era, they used the meter, to test children that "felt" strong in the Force, to gauge the amount of Midi's in their system. If the count was high, they were candidates to become Jedi, because the higher count, would make it easier for them to "get in touch" with the Force, and therefore easier to train to become a Jedi.

The problem some may be having with the theory is, you can't relate it 100% to "real world" facts. We can't test people, to see how much of the "holy spirit" they have in them. Sure, people can claim to have it, but there is no scientific way to prove or disprove it.

In the Star Wars universe, they've figured out a way to scientificly to do just that, by measuring the midi count.

Of course, they've also figured out Hyperspace, artificial gravity, shooting laser bolts from a pistol, have a plasma cutter able to sear through flesh, bone, and steel, without disinigrating the person holding the handle without a firesuit and kevlar mittens.....

There are plenty of science fiction "things" in Star Wars, this is just one that GL decided to explain. For some, it ruined the mystique, I can understand....from the age of 5, I thought the Force was just SW's way of explaining GOD. Now that I'm an adult (still debatable), it makes more sense based on the science.

I hope that wasn't too much of a rambling mess.

These codine make me feel great, but the thought train is having a hard time leaving the station if you get my meaning.

Peace homies.

JediTricks
08-28-2003, 02:56 AM
Unless Ep 3 actively contradicts me on this one, I'm still going to believe that Qui-Gon has it all wrong about what the midis are and what they do (nobody else in the film actually backs up his claims about the Living Force or what the midis do), midiclorians are merely a byproduct of being able to use the Force rather than a conduit to it - having more of them in your blood count is akin to the number of white bloodcells in your blood count be a sign of having a disease.

So far, nobody in AOTC gave Qui-Gon's theory about the midis 1 fraction of a second's worth of screentime and in TPM everybody else just considers the midis to be a good counting tool on Force-use.

2-1B
08-28-2003, 03:34 AM
Anakin never had it explained to him. Just a quick blood sample, he went for a nap and Qui-Gon talked to Ben about it. So, does Anakin know about them? No one explained what they do or how they work.

Ummmmm, actually he did have it explained to him. :D Remember that scene of Anakin asking Qui-Gon "I heard Master Yoda talking about midichlorians. I was wondering, what are midichlorians?" ??? And then Qui-Gon went on to explain to him what midis were? :crazed:

I'll be coming back to this scene from TPM in a moment . . .


But the bigger problem with Midi's is that now, instead of Luke Skywalker being "one of us," a normal human being, someone we can empathize with, he is instead a superhuman with superpowers and potential that normal audience members could never relate to. In the 1977 version of Star Wars, Luke was just a naive farmboy who gets caught up in events much bigger than he ever could have dreamed of. Through his own strength and perserverence, he overcomes the greatest challenges in the galaxy. But now, with Midi's in the mix, he's got a leg up already and is predisposed to success. The insurmountable challenge from 1977 is reduced to a minor obstacle that Luke obviously can easily survive. The boy is a superhero, of course he'll win. But before, pre-Midi's, it wasn't necessarily a foregone conclusion.

Whoa, once again you choose to omit the OT "onscreen evidence" of Luke's specialness. ;)
ESB and ROTJ already showed that Luke had "a leg up" 19 and 16 years, respectively, before the midis were introduced on screen.
No matter how much you hate the midichlorians, it still remains that Luke and Leia had SOME kind of inherited ability. Of course, ANH was shot without any guarantees that another 2 or 5 movies would follow - so there was no definite plan that Vader would even be Luke's father.

With that in mind, are we to dismiss ESB and ROTJ as being flawed because they contradicted the image put forth about Luke in the first film? :confused:

I think it is perfectly plausible for one to accept the presence of midis without having to rationalize it. I was thinking some more about the question of why Luke was never brought up to speed on the midis and I have to say, stillakid, that I don't agree with the argument that it would have made perfect sense to tell Luke about them.

Anakin was told about them at age 9 and when we see him 10 years later, he is CERTAINLY not ready to be a full Jedi yet. He's way more powerful than Luke was of course, but that is due to the fact that he has had 10 years of training with Obi-Wan while being surrounded by thousands of other Jedi who practiced that 'religion.'

Knowing and doing are two different things. Being told about the midis definitely did not speed up Anakin's training. Not one bit. He had to learn to use his powers and he had to develop them.
Obi-Wan was on Ani's case for not taking care of his lightsaber, for rushing into a situation (Coruscant nightclub and especially the battle with Dooku). Anakin's knowledge of the biological nature of the Force doesn't appear to put him on a fast track to Jedi Knighthood so I don't know HOW Luke could benefit from that. :)

TheDarthVader
08-28-2003, 02:34 PM
Great points, Caesar! I agree with you 100%.

DarthChuckMc--I was thinking about posting regarding a "creator, or God" to help explain but I wished not to risk banishment from the forums(religous??). Thanks for doing it for those that didn't have the guts.

stillakid
08-28-2003, 11:15 PM
Also, by that first theory, everyone has Midi's, some are born with higher counts than others.

I subscribe to the real world belief (theory) that we are all made of tiny strings of energy (String Theory). If true, this fundamental building block of EVERYTHING would go a long way in explaining a wide variety of occurances, including the crazy things like ESP or apparitions. So, in terms of what you're saying about "god", I more or less agree. And more than that, it's exactly what Yoda was talking about in the beautiful sequence written by Lawrence Kasdan so many years ago.

However (ever notice how there is always a "however" with me ;) ), you suggest that Anakin was conceived with a higher amount of Midichlorians than others. Okay, back to biology class. Where were they hanging out? We know that they are supposed to be symbiotic creatures who (by your own definition) are sentient beings. We also know that they are passed on through the sperm (through the male bloodline) because of the way Luke and Leia claim to "have" the power (no, Caesar, I wasn't forgetting that...it still doesn't allow for the Midi concept to make any sense still). Being that a sperm is a single celled entity, where was this extra truckload of Midichlorians hanging out? Were they clinging on for dear life as the sperm rocketed into Schmi's egg? Oh, but wait! It was an Immaculate Conception! Fine, so the Midi's themselves, using some magic powers they have, fertilized one of Schmi's eggs and supersaturated the egg that was to become lil' Ani.

Okay, so now we've got a male who is chock full o' Midichlorians. Now he hooks up with the beautiful Padme and sends a package down the pipe. Now we're back to the same problem as described above. How did a truckload of Midi's overload the eggs that were to become Luke and Leia? It HAS to happen at the moment of conception because this is a trait passed on through the males, we're told (by the OT).

:confused:

2-1B
08-29-2003, 12:06 AM
I've discussed this "sperm theory" :D before and I'll glady do it again. :)

The key words are "highest CONCENTRATION of midiclorians" in a lifeform . . . if the child was conceived via one single sperm, then that sperm had a higher CONCENTRATION of midichlorians . . . so when the cells replicate, the midichlorians do as well - and keep the same CONCENTRATION or RATIO.

The sperm which conceived Anakin could have had 100 times more the midichlorian concentration than the sperm which conceived Han Solo. Both men have midichlorians in them, it's just that one has a higher CONCENTARTION than the other. :crazed:

So when stillakid asks "where was this extra truckload of Midichlorians hanging out?" I have to answer that they were there all along - in terms of concentration.

When people ask why Vader didn't lose force ability with the loss of his limbs (because afterall, he lost some midichlorians in those limbs) -- it doesn't matter because his midichlorian CONCENTRATION remained the EXACT SAME.

Yet as stillakid points out, Anakin's was a miraculous conception.
(by the way, the Immaculate Conception refers to the belief in the actual conception of Mary herself without Original Sin and NOT Jesus' virgin conception :) )

So obviously the sperm thing doesn't apply directly to Anakin's birth but I don't see how it matters. Shmi herself has midichlorians too, so when "The Prophecy" or whatever :rolleyes: starts to play out, Anakin is conceived by the midichlorians (if Qui-Gon is right) so to me it makes sense that they would reproduce in a higher concentration to create "The Chosen One." For me, ultimately this part is left up to the "magical and religious realm" just as the Jesus story in our own world . . . :confused:
It doesn't seem possible (even by the physics of the Star Wars world) yet it STILL happened -as some people believe.

I'm not sure where in the OT it is said that the heredity is strictly on the male side? :confused:
As for how Luke and Leia could be so blessed, the same goes as I said earlier - Anakin has a high CONCENTRATION of midis (even higher than Yoda ;) ) so it stands that his single cell sperm have that SAME concentration - when that sperm hooks up with Padme's egg, who knows, maybe the concentration of Luke and Leia's midis is diminished since Padme does not have nearly the same concentration as Ani? :confused:

Even if that's true, the twins will STILL have a high-above-average concentration of midichlorians.

Vader is the only Jedi in the OT, heck the whole Saga so far, to have kids - so it's only one example. I don't think that proves that it's hereditary on the male's side.


Finally, none of this explains why Obi-Wan had enough of a midichlorian concentration to be taken by the Jedi as a child . . . while his own parents were apparently not Jedi themselves? How did the Jedi miss out on Ben's parents? If Ben has a high midi count, wouldn't his parents as well (if in fact it can be hereditary) ? :confused: I dunno, maybe he didn't even have "normal" parents. Maybe his dad WAS a Jedi who just had a one night stand? :D

Who the hell knows, they never went into the family backstory of any of the other Jedi except for Ani . . . :crazed:

Kidhuman
08-29-2003, 08:26 AM
I guess it would depend on where and when Ben was born. If his parents lived on some faroff planet, outer rim perhaps and then moved closer after he was born. It doesnt explain anything really because all the Jedi's parents were missed.

gtrain29
09-03-2003, 04:06 AM
Wow, this is the 1st time I've checked in on my thread!
Great posts by all. It seems the 2 categories are those who are willing to grudgingly accept the midis & those who can't stand them. Does anyone actually like the existence of midis??

How about if in the archive editions E1 is altered so that qui-gon whispers to anakin about midis and none of us hear what he's saying?

Because after thinking it over, the first mention where they are just used as a counter isn't so bad -- they just needed to "amaze" obi-wan about how strong ani was with the force. I doubt I would have ever thought about them again after that scene. The later explanation by qui-gon is unnecessary as it adds nothing and only takes away from the story IMO.

JediTricks
09-03-2003, 05:24 AM
First off, they'd need to fix that awful reading of Jake's: "I heard master Yoda talking about Midichlorians. What are Midichlorians?" Sounds like he's the shill in a Ron Popiel infomercial...
"I heard Master Windu talking about 'Hair in a Can' the other day. What is hair in a can, Ron?"

"Well, I'm glad you asked, Ani. You see, Hair in a Can uses thousands of magical little midichlorians in each can to simulate the look of real hair while also stimulating regrowth of dead hair folicles. Simply spray Hair in a Can onto your head and voila!, an instant hairdo guaranteed to look real, luscious, and totally natural; in fact, I'm using it right now!"

"Gee, Ron, I can't even tell! Wizard! But how much does a miracle product like this cost? I probably could never afford an amazing item like this, if I ever went bald I'd cover my face with a mask and helmet."

"'Wizard' indeed, Ani. This is the product that men have been waiting for since time began. And this wonderful little can not only lasts you a whole month, but also only costs mere credits a day!"

"Yippee!"Anyway, to "fix" this part of TPM in the SE, I think QGJ could say something like "Midichlorians are an organic marker that exist within your blood - the more concentrated they are, the more ability you have with the Force." This of course is vague enough to cover the original concept shown in the film while simultaneously leaving a much larger door open for a broader interpretation such as mine.

stillakid
09-03-2003, 10:56 AM
First off, they'd need to fix that awful reading of Jake's: "I heard master Yoda talking about Midichlorians. What are Midichlorians?" Sounds like he's the shill in a Ron Popiel infomercial... Anyway, to "fix" this part of TPM in the SE, I think QGJ could say something like "Midichlorians are an organic marker that exist within your blood - the more concentrated they are, the more ability you have with the Force." This of course is vague enough to cover the original concept shown in the film while simultaneously leaving a much larger door open for a broader interpretation such as mine.


Holy balls, I'm still laughing! LOL :D

stillakid
09-03-2003, 11:14 AM
I've discussed this "sperm theory" :D before and I'll glady do it again. :)

The key words are "highest CONCENTRATION of midiclorians" in a lifeform . . . if the child was conceived via one single sperm, then that sperm had a higher CONCENTRATION of midichlorians . . . so when the cells replicate, the midichlorians do as well - and keep the same CONCENTRATION or RATIO.

Right, but the problem lies in the definition of Midichlorians being symbiotic lifeforms of their own. The sperm cell is just that, a cell. For the Midichlorians to "get in there" in the first place, means that they would A) either have to be constructed of a smaller element than a a traditional cell, or B) somehow be engrained with the DNA strand and or the chromosomes that combine to create an embryo, which again means that they are not a separate organism at all.

I'm not a biologist nor do I play one on tv so anyone who is can pipe in here, but the way I understand this is that in the Star Wars lore, "Force ability" is somehow hereditary (ROTJ) and is measured by Midichlorians (TPM). This implies that if one or both of the parents has a large concentration of Midichlorians running rampant in their adult bodies, that somehow the "trait" is passed on to the offspring.

We KNOW that Luke and Leia got this from their father...at least that part is heavily implied. Which means that any other extraneous sources of Midichlorians (ie, through Padme's breast milk, etc) are out. So unless Anakin stood over his children's mouths and spit Midichlorian laden expectorate into them (and we know he didn't because presumably he doesn't even learn he has Luke until between Episodes IV and V and he doesn't learn about Leia until Episode VI), the only avenue for transferral of Midichlorians or the trait from Anakin to his children would have been through his sperm cell.

Which leads us back to the problem of where all these Midichlorians came from. Are they in that one cell? Are they hanging on for dear life as the little guy swims upstream? This is a question for a biologist to answer. Is it possible for some kind of advanced cellular (and sentient) organism to be small enough to fit inside a single sperm cell? And if we're talking about "concentration," then it suggests that a single sperm cell in a newborn Jedi-to-be would have a multitude of these things inside of it.

I don't get it? :confused:

darthvyn
09-03-2003, 01:01 PM
Right, but the problem lies in the definition of Midichlorians being symbiotic lifeforms of their own. The sperm cell is just that, a cell. For the Midichlorians to "get in there" in the first place, means that they would A) either have to be constructed of a smaller element than a a traditional cell, or B) somehow be engrained with the DNA strand and or the chromosomes that combine to create an embryo, which again means that they are not a separate organism at all.

I'm not a biologist nor do I play one on tv so anyone who is can pipe in here, but the way I understand this is that in the Star Wars lore, "Force ability" is somehow hereditary (ROTJ) and is measured by Midichlorians (TPM). This implies that if one or both of the parents has a large concentration of Midichlorians running rampant in their adult bodies, that somehow the "trait" is passed on to the offspring.

We KNOW that Luke and Leia got this from their father...at least that part is heavily implied. Which means that any other extraneous sources of Midichlorians (ie, through Padme's breast milk, etc) are out. So unless Anakin stood over his children's mouths and spit Midichlorian laden expectorate into them (and we know he didn't because presumably he doesn't even learn he has Luke until between Episodes IV and V and he doesn't learn about Leia until Episode VI), the only avenue for transferral of Midichlorians or the trait from Anakin to his children would have been through his sperm cell.

Which leads us back to the problem of where all these Midichlorians came from. Are they in that one cell? Are they hanging on for dear life as the little guy swims upstream? This is a question for a biologist to answer. Is it possible for some kind of advanced cellular (and sentient) organism to be small enough to fit inside a single sperm cell? And if we're talking about "concentration," then it suggests that a single sperm cell in a newborn Jedi-to-be would have a multitude of these things inside of it.

I don't get it? :confused:

there are plenty of parts to a cell... they are all smaller than the cell. midichlorians, as i've said before, sound like a composite word of mitochondria - the energy producing vessesl in animal cells, and chloroplasts - the energy producing vessels in plant cells.

i found a website on mitochondria...

from http://cellbio.utmb.edu/cellbio/mitoch1.htm

"Mitochondria replicate much like bacterial cells. When they get too large, they undergo fission. This involves a furrowing of the inner and then the outer membrane as if someone was pinching the mitochondrion. Then the two daughter mitochondria split. Of course, the mitochondria must first replicate their DNA."

so, whether the sperm was chock full of midicholorians, or just one, there could then be a splitting of them until they get to a number that shows how force sensitive the individual is...

now, i know mitochondria are a part of us, but they have their own dna and the ability to replicate... sounds like a separate organism to me... i've said before as well, all we are are amalgams of differentiated tissue, all with their own jobs to do, living in symbiosis.

from http://cellbio.utmb.edu/cellbio/mitochondria_1.htm#powerhouses

"How are mitochondria organized to be powerhouses?

The food we eat is oxidized to produce high-energy electrons that are converted to stored energy. This energy is stored in high energy phosphate bonds in a molecule called adenosine triphosphate, or ATP. ATP is converted from adenosine diphosphate by adding the phosphate group with the high-energy bond. Various reactions in the cell can either use energy (whereby the ATP is converted back to ADP, releasing the high energy bond) or produce it (whereby the ATP is produced from ADP)."

so, the more mitochondria we have... the more ENERGY we have...

once again, i've said it before, but i love things that bring together science and spirituality... too long they have been separate, almost opposite, ideas. that's why i'm not bothered by the midichlorians. they are the embodiment of science and spirituality combined...

i found my old post about this...

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=122697&postcount=11

just fyi...

stillakid
09-03-2003, 05:06 PM
there are plenty of parts to a cell... they are all smaller than the cell. midichlorians, as i've said before, sound like a composite word of mitochondria - the energy producing vessesl in animal cells, and chloroplasts - the energy producing vessels in plant cells.

i found a website on mitochondria...

from http://cellbio.utmb.edu/cellbio/mitoch1.htm

"Mitochondria replicate much like bacterial cells. When they get too large, they undergo fission. This involves a furrowing of the inner and then the outer membrane as if someone was pinching the mitochondrion. Then the two daughter mitochondria split. Of course, the mitochondria must first replicate their DNA."

so, whether the sperm was chock full of midicholorians, or just one, there could then be a splitting of them until they get to a number that shows how force sensitive the individual is...

now, i know mitochondria are a part of us, but they have their own dna and the ability to replicate... sounds like a separate organism to me... i've said before as well, all we are are amalgams of differentiated tissue, all with their own jobs to do, living in symbiosis.

from http://cellbio.utmb.edu/cellbio/mitochondria_1.htm#powerhouses

"How are mitochondria organized to be powerhouses?

The food we eat is oxidized to produce high-energy electrons that are converted to stored energy. This energy is stored in high energy phosphate bonds in a molecule called adenosine triphosphate, or ATP. ATP is converted from adenosine diphosphate by adding the phosphate group with the high-energy bond. Various reactions in the cell can either use energy (whereby the ATP is converted back to ADP, releasing the high energy bond) or produce it (whereby the ATP is produced from ADP)."

so, the more mitochondria we have... the more ENERGY we have...

once again, i've said it before, but i love things that bring together science and spirituality... too long they have been separate, almost opposite, ideas. that's why i'm not bothered by the midichlorians. they are the embodiment of science and spirituality combined...

i found my old post about this...

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=122697&postcount=11

just fyi...

Very nice. Thank you, Darthvyn. I shall ponder all of this. Until then... :)

gtrain29
09-04-2003, 12:39 PM
Here is the big problem with the midis. We keep delving deeper and deeper into cell biology and theoretical physics about something that was originally just a "mystical energy field."

darthvyn
09-04-2003, 03:02 PM
Here is the big problem with the midis. We keep delving deeper and deeper into cell biology and theoretical physics about something that was originally just a "mystical energy field."

yeah, but energy is both mystical AND scientific. it is quantifiable, yet we still don't know where it comes from, or really what it is. we understand that there is a correlation between mass and energy, but exactly what that correlation is we don't know.

true, the cell biology is new due to the introduction of midis, but do you really think theoretical physics is a new topic to star wars? with the mere first mention of "the force" as an energy in the universe i'm sure there were discussions of not only a spiritual nature, but a scientific one as well. it's an energy field that surrounds us, binds us, flows through us. unified field theory?

but, like i said. i love bringing science and spirituality together, anyway, so i guess that's why i'm not bothered by it...

stillakid
09-04-2003, 03:39 PM
Here is the big problem with the midis. We keep delving deeper and deeper into cell biology and theoretical physics about something that was originally just a "mystical energy field."

Assuming that Midi's exist (and they do because they are in the film), George is just using them as a way to quantify someone's Force manipulation potential.

I personally (currently) like String Theory, which essentially boils down to the idea that the most basic element of everything is a tiny little "string" of pure energy.

Because everything is constructed of the same stuff (even the air that exists between things), it stands to reason that everything is actually physically connected, albeit, at the most fundamental level of existence possible.

What Star Wars attempts to do, is build a bridge wherein sentient beings actually figure out a way to "tap into" and "use" this connection between everything so that they can do stuff like pick up chicks with wacky parlor tricks. It was all very elegantly described by Yoda (by Lawrence Kasdan) in The Empire Strikes Back.

The Phantom Menace brought us the definition of that "bridge," which not only suggests that some people have more potential than others, but seriously implies that this "bridge" is also a sentient entity unto itself which has the capacity for decision making. "God," if you will, as they apparently have the ability to generate life where there was none.

Fine, fine, I say. But just because George was too lazy to figure out a better way to show the audience that Anakin was gifted, was it really necessary to belabor the saga with this kind of overly complicated (and suspicious) nonsense?

gtrain29
09-08-2003, 07:20 PM
Okay, let's say midis are like mitochondria which, by the way, were were believed to have evolved from tinier bacteria being "symbiotic" inside another bacteria.
So their really not symbiotic at this point, but probably more like organelles which replicate every time a cell does and so could end up in a sperm or egg and pass on to the offspring.
This makes sense but leads to lots of problems. One would conclude from the above info that being a jedi is an inherited trait. However, jedi are forbidden to love and marry. Soooo, where are all these jedi coming from??? Did the republic somehow miss all the force-sensitive people from whom these jedi came, OR do the jedi go around and hookup with partners every now & then when the urge overtakes them. Since the child will be taken from the parents and raised at the temple, a jedi needn't worry about child support.??????
Also, I don't see any possible way for a midi, organelle or symbiot, to produce a sperm cell somehow with human dna and get it into shmi's womb at the exact time to fertilize and egg. Several impossibilities exist there. Any explanations????

And FINALLY, so say we all agree that high concentrations of these creatures give us the potential to be more powerful jedi. HOW IN THE HELL do midis actually work to make us hear or feel the force??!!!! Since we must be scientific here and accept that these organelles are inside cells, then there must be a scientific explanation for how they work to give the jedi his/her power. Are they like little satellite dishes that catch the signal the force is projecting around the galaxy with little force receptors on their membranes? If so, then what? How do they send the force signal to the brain? Do the midis secrete some unique neurotransmitter that gets exocytosed from the cell, hits a synapse, and travels the nerves up to the brain??? If that somehow happens, then what's next? See, all this does is allows a jedi to feel the presence of the force. It doesn't account for the things we know the force is capable of: "controlling our actions, and obeying our commands," the super reflexes, speed, strength, telepathy, and visions. In other words, if any of these impossibilities were to occur to get that signal of the force to our brain, we still couldn't do anything superhuman about that knowledge.

Therefore, here are my conclusions: ONE, Han Solo was correct in his assertion that the jedi shtick is nothing more than a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
TWO: (this makes the most sense) Qui-Gon was just a crazy old wizard. His whole midi theory was just a denomination of the jedi ideology. This makes sense because Qui-gon is the only jedi who seems to believe in the midis. Nobody on the counsel even mentions them, and they seem to shrug off his notions about the conception of Ani. Obi-Wan talks about them because he is the apprentice of Qui-Gon, and we all know that he goes on to be another crazy old wizard. Obi never discusses them to his apprentice as far as we know, nor do any other jedi. In fact, Qui-Gon's lunacy might be part of the reason he is kept off the counsel. Maybe that is why they sent him after the Sith since he was expendable. Perhaps he was a scientist or alchemist in his spare time and discovered some correlation between these organelles and jedi, but nobody really understands how they work.

I grew up believing the force was just a mystical field that these jedi were able to control in some unexplainable fashion. Just like Gandalf and other wizards from other fantasies have unusual powers that we don't try to explain because WE DON'T CARE. Like everyone's said, it is the stories and ability to relate to the characters that are the true magic of star wars. So, I think it was stillakid who said this, but Lucas was simply throwing out a quick & easy explanation of force potential and just didn't think about the consequences or wasn't skillful enough to write it any better.

darthvyn
09-09-2003, 03:29 AM
there was a post in the other thread that i linked to up there that proposes what you say about qui-gon... that his idea of midis isn't what most jedi believe.

mitochondria replicate INSIDE the cell, not just when the cell divides. there can be multiple mitos in the cell. they store up and dish out energy for the cell to use. if someone has an abundance of energy, they have an abundance of mitos. therefore, i postulate that if a jedi has a large amount of the spiritual ENERGY of the force in them, this is quantified by the abundance of midis. the midis aren't actually the gateway to the force, but merely a storing depot for the energy of the force, and a good gauge of how much force energy a potential jedi has...

2-1B
09-09-2003, 04:25 AM
Well postulated, Vyn ! :)

The idea of midichlorians replicating inside the cell pretty much clears up my confusion as to why at least one of Obi-Wan's parents was not also a Jedi.

thanks. :)

2-1B
09-09-2003, 04:33 AM
So, I think it was stillakid who said this, but Lucas was simply throwing out a quick & easy explanation of force potential and just didn't think about the consequences or wasn't skillful enough to write it any better.


Ehhhhh, George can be a real hack sometimes but when it comes to the midis I'm inclined to give him more credit than this.
Lucas talked before about the similarities to mitochondria . . . I think he knew what he was talking about and why he was doing it. :)

stillakid
09-10-2003, 03:36 PM
Ehhhhh, George can be a real hack sometimes but when it comes to the midis I'm inclined to give him more credit than this.
Lucas talked before about the similarities to mitochondria . . . I think he knew what he was talking about and why he was doing it. :)


Anything is possible. As much as I dislike the idea in the saga, I do have genuine hope that he will surprise us all who don't believe. I suppose he has 4 more chances to prove your assertion correct: Episode III hopefully, but he could also shoehorn it in unnaturally into the super-nifty DVD editions of the three original trilogy films.

Got my fingers crossed. :D

gtrain29
09-10-2003, 04:28 PM
there was a post in the other thread that i linked to up there that proposes what you say about qui-gon... that his idea of midis isn't what most jedi believe.

mitochondria replicate INSIDE the cell, not just when the cell divides. there can be multiple mitos in the cell. they store up and dish out energy for the cell to use. if someone has an abundance of energy, they have an abundance of mitos. therefore, i postulate that if a jedi has a large amount of the spiritual ENERGY of the force in them, this is quantified by the abundance of midis. the midis aren't actually the gateway to the force, but merely a storing depot for the energy of the force, and a good gauge of how much force energy a potential jedi has...

I love that theory!!!
That makes good sense. Didn't Qui-Gon explain it incorrectly, then? I thought he tried to explain them as the gateway which doesn't make sense, but I agree with what you've postulated.

2-1B
09-10-2003, 04:48 PM
Anything is possible. As much as I dislike the idea in the saga, I do have genuine hope that he will surprise us all who don't believe. I suppose he has 4 more chances to prove your assertion correct: Episode III hopefully, but he could also shoehorn it in unnaturally into the super-nifty DVD editions of the three original trilogy films.

Got my fingers crossed. :D

LOL, "4 more chances" :D

Well stillakid, I said that from the POV of just TPM. Personally I think it's fine to just let it be contained in that one film. I don't expect the issue to be addressed even once in Episode 3.

But I see where you are coming from - you think George needs to deal with it again in this next film. We'll see. :)

stillakid
09-10-2003, 05:15 PM
LOL, "4 more chances" :D

Well stillakid, I said that from the POV of just TPM. Personally I think it's fine to just let it be contained in that one film. I don't expect the issue to be addressed even once in Episode 3.

But I see where you are coming from - you think George needs to deal with it again in this next film. We'll see. :)


Well, if nothing else, he might make the choice to include something in reaction to the general grumblings out there. If he leaves it alone (to be self-contained in TPM) then he runs the risk of having people believe forever that it was a mistake no matter what his real intention was. If he makes some kind of attempt to better explain its inclusion (not in a carnival pitchman sort of way, mind you), then at least we can look at it and say, "Oh, okay" or " :rolleyes: it's still dumb."

I still maintain that regardless of what he could/would/should say about them in Episode III, he absolutely has to insert them into the OT. It makes absolutely no sense in the world why two separate Jedi Masters, with the sole remaining hope for the galaxy, would neglect to share this kind of information with him. This isn't to say that I'd like the OT any better for it. In fact, it would rather disrupt the elegance of the description of what the Force was and how it was used as written originally. But the benefit would be to make the Prequels that much more palatable. Sort of liking bringing down the whole class so that the dumb kid doesn't stand out so much. :D

Beast
09-10-2003, 05:20 PM
I posted the link to this thesis before, that explores the issue of Midiclorians. I believe it's very well written and definatly gives you something to think about. I'll even pop in two of the more thought provoking areas at the end. :)

http://www.theforce.net/midichlorians/

Also note, I agree. There's no reason for them to mention the Midiclorians in the OT. Luke was already the chosen one. Obi-Wan and Yoda knew that the force was strong in him. Why muddle his poor farm boy head with talk of genetics. Qui-Gon probably wouldn't even have explained it to Anakin, if he hadn't have asked. :)

Just because someone has a higher number of Midi's, doesn't make them superman. They just have a stronger connection to the force. Without training, they still wouldn't be anything particularly special. And we see where Ani's extra Midi's leads him, getting his arse kicked by Dooku and Obi-Wan, who were better trained. :)

Midi-chlorians, as explained by the creator of Star Wars, George Lucas:

"Midi-chlorians are a loose depiction of mitochondria, which are necessary components for cells to divide. They probably had something--which will come out someday--to do with the beginnings of life and how one cell decided to become two cells with a little help from this other little creature who came in, without whom life couldn't exist. And it's really a way of saying we have hundreds of little creatures who live on us, and without them, we all would die. There wouldn't be any life. They are necessary for us; we are necessary for them. Using them in the metaphor, saying society is the same way, says we all must get along with each other."

It's more accurate to say that Anakin has the greatest potential in the Force of any person, instead of being strongest by a cosmic twist of fate, unless we want to believe that someone like Arnold Schwarzenegger was born built like Conan the Barbarian. Of course not, but Arnold does have a predisposition towards increased musculature that he took advantage of, but it didn't come without his effort to get to that point and then to maintain it. If he had never been introduced to weight-training, he would still have that potential but it would never have been harnessed. Likewise, if Anakin had not been found by Qui-Gon Jinn, there would have been no nurturing of his potential in the Jedi discipline. Anakin would have spent the rest of his life as a slave, whistfully looking at the twin suns and wondering what might have been.

Of course, we know better...

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

TheDarthVader
09-11-2003, 06:20 PM
Luke was already the chosen one.

I hate to bring up another arguement, but I get frustrated with individuals who believe that Luke was the chosen one. Anakin is the chosen one. Here is some dialogue from EP I that proves it.

Qui Gon- "It is possible he was conceived by midichlorians."

Mace- "You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the force."

If the prophecy states that the chosen one is to be conceived by midichlorians then Anakin is 100% the chosen one. It can not be Luke...there is no way. He was not conceived by midis.

Sorry to start something different, but I had to! Good discussion so far on the midis, everyone! I am enjoying it! :)

JediTricks
09-12-2003, 04:21 AM
But how do we know Mace isn't referring to the vergence around Anakin? That's specifically what Qui-Gon first mentions about the lil squirt, not the conception.

stillakid
09-12-2003, 04:29 AM
But how do we know Mace isn't referring to the vergence around Anakin? That's specifically what Qui-Gon first mentions about the lil squirt, not the conception.


Well, first of all, what the hell is a "vergence" anyway? :rolleyes: This idea about bringing "balance" to the Force is entirely unexplained as well. In fact, this entire "prophecy" and the Midi's it rode in on falls flat onscreen. I'm sure that there are tomes of extraneous reading materials which need to be studied in order to defend the elements in the movies, but it sure would have been nice of the guy to bother writing a script which didn't leave so many people saying, "Huh?"

JediTricks
09-12-2003, 05:07 AM
I'm not validating the meaning of "the prophecy", I'm just saying that Mace could - and in my mind, most likely is - responding to QGJ's comment about the vergence.

Vergence: n.
1.A measure of the convergence or divergence of a pair of light rays, defined as the reciprocal of the distance between a point of reference and the point at which the rays intersect.
(there's a second, medical definition but it's about eyes :crazed: )

As to its definition in TPM though, no real clue beyond the relatively cryptic dialogue:


QUI-GON: I have encountered a vergence in the Force.

YODA: A vergence, you say?

MACE WINDU: Located around a person?

QUI-GON: A boy... his cells have the highest concentration of midi-chlorians I have seen in a life form. It is possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians.

MACE WINDU: You're referring to the prophesy of the one who will bring balance to the Force...you believe it's this boy?? That tends to suggestion the vergence is found not specifically in but "around" things, and does not have to be a living being. Perhaps it means a Force hiccup. ;)

Beast
09-12-2003, 08:20 AM
I hate to bring up another arguement, but I get frustrated with individuals who believe that Luke was the chosen one.
Ok, let me make my comment more clear. I didn't mean to use the 'Chosen One' term, because I know that refers to Anakin. Let me use the term that the original Star Wars uses to refer to Luke...."A New Hope". Where as Anakin was "The Original "Hope". Basically I meant that Luke was already known to be strong in the force by Obi-Wan and Yoda, so no need to test him or bring up the issue of genetics with him.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
09-12-2003, 11:26 AM
or bring up the issue of genetics with him.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

I've never been talking about genetics or testing as it relates to Midichlorians. You're still missing the point.

Yes, I agree, there is no reason necessarily to test Luke (as long as there is a precendent for strong heredity of this sort of thing to go on....which, by the way, there doesn't appear to be lest every one of those 5000 Jedi in the galaxy also had Midi-rich parentage, but we've been given no reason to believe this to be true....hmm, another hole in the architecture?)

But beyond that, the reason why telling Luke about Midi's is so compelling is because, while this Force presumably has been proven to exist, apparently the only way to tap into it and use it is via this pathway of "listening to" these symbiotic parasites in your cells.

Look at it this way, if I asked you to get over to that island over there after covering your eyes, but neglected to tell you about the bridge that you didn't see, how long do you think it might take you to get there? Sure, through trial and error you could "trust your feelings" and other psuedo-psychological nonsense, but for cryin' out loud, there's work to do and you're running out of time to do it. I'd be a bit p.o.'d if you didn't bother telling me about that expanse which would have sped this process up and made it a whole lot easier. Plus, I wouldn't have gotten so frickin' wet. ;)

So, the same applies with Luke and the confounded Midi concept. Yeah, they suspected that he had the same potential as daddy, but the idea that "there was no need to tell him" falls entirely flat. What, like it takes about 10 to 20 seconds to spit this dialogue out? Check TPM and time how long it takes Ani to ask the question and then have it answered. Like Yoda or Ben couldn't have done that? Puleeasse.

Jedi Clint
09-12-2003, 03:35 PM
Even if it were necessary to tell luke about midis (which I'm not going to argue), why would it be necessary to SHOW Yoda explaining them to him? He very well could have told him about them, but it was never shown to the audience. In episode order we already saw an explanation about the midis in the first one.

Beast
09-12-2003, 03:46 PM
Agreed, the explanation could have happened off screen. Just like we didn't see every second of training on screen. Not to mention Luke is never told how to construct a Lightsaber. Something that ever Jedi does when they become a certain level. Yet he knows somehow how to build one in ROTJ. Yet we're never shown where this knowledge comes from. Now if we go by EU sources, when Luke returned to Obi-Wan's Hut on Tattooine, he found instructions how to construct a new Lightsaber. Most likely Obi-Wan also had info about the Jedi teachings, training, and testing procedures in the same trunk. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

gtrain29
09-13-2003, 04:24 AM
Yes, I suppose someone could have explained it to Luke off-screen. It would certainly be important to let the last jedi know about the little bugs living in his cells that allowed him to use the force.
OR, Yoda & Ben had since realised the fallacy in that belief. I was reading elsewhere how Obi-Wan goes from a midi supporter to an older wiser more spiritual idea of the force at the end of his life. We'll always be wondering about this unless there is an answer in 3.

Also, there seem to be some satisfactory explanations of the things as force receptors, but there is no freakin' way that mitochondria spit out a human sperm cell that somehow worked its way into Shmi's womb at the exact moment necessary to fertilize an egg! There must be a father.

darthvyn
09-13-2003, 09:47 PM
I love that theory!!!
That makes good sense. Didn't Qui-Gon explain it incorrectly, then? I thought he tried to explain them as the gateway which doesn't make sense, but I agree with what you've postulated.

well, in the thread i linked to, JT actually brings up a theory that qui-gon is wrong about them on purpose, that he is a believer in the "living force" which was theorized to be the belief that the midis ARE the gateway, not just a force cell count... whereas other jedi believe they are of lesser significance...



I still maintain that regardless of what he could/would/should say about them in Episode III, he absolutely has to insert them into the OT. It makes absolutely no sense in the world why two separate Jedi Masters, with the sole remaining hope for the galaxy, would neglect to share this kind of information with him. This isn't to say that I'd like the OT any better for it. In fact, it would rather disrupt the elegance of the description of what the Force was and how it was used as written originally. But the benefit would be to make the Prequels that much more palatable. Sort of liking bringing down the whole class so that the dumb kid doesn't stand out so much. :D

with the theory above, it isn't necessary to talk of midis if qui-gon ends up being wrong about them - they have no bearing on luke's abilities, they are just a quantified measurement of force potential... if we find out that qui-gon was wrong about them in III, there is no need to infuse them into the OT.

stillakid
09-14-2003, 12:36 AM
Even if it were necessary to tell luke about midis (which I'm not going to argue), why would it be necessary to SHOW Yoda explaining them to him? He very well could have told him about them, but it was never shown to the audience. In episode order we already saw an explanation about the midis in the first one.

Well, I suppose technically, that's true. But if we're going to use that line of reasoning to defend an addition like that in the Prequels, then what was the point of going through the trouble of building suspense for the audience over the identity of Darth Vader in the OT then? Huh? Why the brief yet evident "mystery" over this Yoda character?

See, the problem is that while George may want to pretend that these are meant to be seen in Episode order, the fact remains that they aren't being made that way. He has already established the foundation of the plot and the point of the series with the first three films (IV, V, and VI). In doing that, he, with the considerable aid of three other writers, two other directors, and I forget how many actual producers, constructed sequences and scenes with the express purpose of creating drama and intrigue within themselves. By "giving away" certain information in the earlier episodes, much of that intentional drama and suspense will be removed.

In the same way, it doesn't make any sense at all for certain information, like Midi's, to be pointedly highlighted in one episode and rationalized away by playing a friendly game of "pretend" that they were mentioned "offscreen" in later chapters. I mean, for cryin' out loud, you could successfully use that "logic" for any movie that comes down the pike that is riddled with holes. "What? Oh, that? Yeah, uh, see the hero mentioned that offscreen." :rolleyes:

Where do you draw the line?

Jedi Clint
09-14-2003, 08:37 PM
Even if it were necessary to tell luke about midis (which I'm not going to argue), why would it be necessary to SHOW Yoda explaining them to him? He very well could have told him about them, but it was never shown to the audience. In episode order we already saw an explanation about the midis in the first one.


I'm glad we can agree that the above is "technically true". :)

TESB seems to have built a suprise for the audience for Yoda and Vader's identity. Once 3 is out, only the character of Luke will be suprised by either revelation. I don't like it, but I'll deal. But then I never applied the reasoning quoted above as justification for the way either of those situations will play out. :)

I'm sorry you feel my "logic" makes no "sense at all", but I'm plenty satisfied with the way I "rationalized away" the absence of a reiteration of the midis relationship to the force in a later episode. I see no reason why the audience needs a redundant explanation. In fact, presenting different aspects of the force in the dialogue between characters that involves the subject increases the breadth of the explanation (regardless of whether one likes or dislikes a portion of the gross illustration) Even if one believed it was necessary for Luke to understand midis, there's no reason why one should assume he did not get that instruction from Yoda (or Obi Wan for that matter) unless they assume that the characters only speak to one another when the audience witnesses it :rolleyes:

stillakid
09-14-2003, 11:26 PM
there's no reason why one should assume he did not get that instruction from Yoda (or Obi Wan for that matter) unless they assume that the characters only speak to one another when the audience witnesses it :rolleyes:


Your rolling eyes are key to that statement, which tells me that your experience with evaluating and/or writing fiction and screenplays is limited at best. Absolutely the audience shouldn't assume anything of the sort unless it is either directly shown or said onscreen or grossly implied. Otherwise, no, absolutely not, it did not happen. If there was ever a rulebook for screenwriting, that would definitely be a part of it.

So, despite the contention which states that we should just accept that this Midi stuff was a part of Luke's offscreen training, there is absolutely no basis for the basic audience to accept such a thing, beyond the need for die-hard fans to love every bit of the saga without question.

Specifically, I wonder what your reasoning is that Ben and Yoda didn't explain Midi's to Luke onscreen? Going on the assumption (which I doubt) that Midi's were part of the storyline all along, why would George omit their mention in the OT? What does he have to gain by doing such a thing? Why wait some 25 years to spill this oh so important piece of the puzzle in a "Ron Popiel" sort of way (thanks to JT for that one http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275973&postcount=37), only to drop the entire thing from public view throughout the rest of the 5 episodes? Clearly, I consider it crappy writing. That's no secret. I'm interested in hearing more of the "offscreen" explanation for why such a thing happened from defenders of the Lucas. :)

Jedi Clint
09-15-2003, 02:04 AM
Your rolling eyes are key to that statement, which tells me that your experience with evaluating and/or writing fiction and screenplays is limited at best.

Cool part is.......I don't really care what your guesstimation of my "experience with evaluating and/or writing fiction and screenplays" is. Should the "basic audience" have such experience before they watch a film?


Absolutely the audience shouldn't assume anything of the sort unless it is either directly shown or said onscreen or grossly implied.

I thought it was "grossly implied" that Yoda trained Luke during the time they spent together on Dagobah. I figured training him meant telling him everything he could to best perpare him for the challenges ahead. I also figured they spoke more words to one another during their time together than were witnessed "on-screen". Are those outrageous conclusions to draw?


Otherwise, no, absolutely not, it did not happen.

Or maybe it did! :D

In this case one can either assume that Yoda and or Obi Wan never spoke to Luke about the midis (or anything else for that matter) because we didn't see it happen, OR one can assume they did even though we didn't see it. Either way it doesn't bother me.


If there was ever a rulebook for screenwriting, that would definitely be a part of it.

So there is no "rulebook for screenwriting"? ;)


So, despite the contention which states that we should just accept that this Midi stuff was a part of Luke's offscreen training, there is absolutely no basis for the basic audience to accept such a thing, beyond the need for die-hard fans to love every bit of the saga without question.

Now I'm a "diehard fan" that "loves every bit of the saga without question"? I thought I just mentioned something that I didn't like about the saga. Aren't I addressing questions in the course of this discussion?


Specifically, I wonder what your reasoning is that Ben and Yoda didn't explain Midi's to Luke onscreen?

Sorry if you missed it.


Going on the assumption (which I doubt) that Midi's were part of the storyline all along, why would George omit their mention in the OT? What does he have to gain by doing such a thing?

I don't know whether they "were part of the storyline all along" or not. They are part of it now.

2-1B
09-15-2003, 02:28 AM
It's my interpretation that Luke was never clued in on the midichlorians and I maintain that there would be no need for him to be filled in by Yoda or Ben. I talked about this on page 3 of this thread (the idea that Anakin's training was not sped along by his knowledge of midichlorians so why would Luke's?) but then we got into the area of Force heredity so I never discussed it further. :)

TheDarthVader
09-15-2003, 01:20 PM
And my idea of the "off-screen" theory was already here. It was on page two of this thread. ;)



Just because midi's weren't in the OT doesn't mean they weren't in the OT...okay I know, you don't follow me. Here are some examples:

1. In ROTJ Luke has constructed a lightsaber. How did he know how to do that? I didn't see any part in the movie that showed us how he learned to make a lightsaber. :confused:
2. In ROTJ Luke proves to be a worthy lightsaber combatant versus Darth Vader. Wait!! I didn't see in the OT were Luke learned to combat so elegantly...? or practiced using a lightsaber against another lightsaber combatant. :confused:

Possibly Yoda did tell Luke about Midi's...we just didn't see it.

gtrain29
09-15-2003, 02:47 PM
Luke's use of a lightsaber was anything but elegant. It makes sense since he never really had a whole lot of training in that area, though.

I think it would be necessary to tell Luke about midis, though, because he is the last of the jedi. No, it may not have sped along his training, but in teaching the whole jedi thing, telling him about the little bugs that allow him to use the force would be a key concept. I think it would have helped him, though. I'd be much more confident if, instead of just trying to stretch out with my feelings, I knew beforehand that my cells were infested with creatures that enabled me to do this better than other people.
Yeah, it could have happened off screen, but, when watching a movie, the important things should happen onscreen.

The midi count was not needed in E1. "I'm the only human who can do it." and, "The force is unusually strong in him." were lines gave me chills about how powerful this kid could be. Then the midi count and explanation really took the magic out of the situation.
This is something that needs further explaining in E3, though. If Qui-gon was correct about them, then they make no sense at all. If his theory was wrong, then we need to find out or this debate will never end.

stillakid
09-15-2003, 04:23 PM
(the idea that Anakin's training was not sped along by his knowledge of midichlorians so why would Luke's?)


Yeah, that's an interesting idea, but what leads you to believe that Anakin's training wasn't enhanced by his knowledge of Midi's? See, he didn't begin his training until after learning about them, so naturally, he'll have that little nugget of info floating around in that noggin of his. Maybe it influenced the way he trained, maybe it didn't. But because he did know, it seems more likely that he was indeed aided by the knowledge. Impossible to tell one way or the other though, because a great deal of his formative Jedi years occur offscreen. All we know for certain is that he was trained (but we don't know how) and can use a lightsaber and float fruit through the air.

As far as Luke goes, we can safely say that the audience never heard anyone tell him about Midi's so, unless it happened offscreen (which is pure conjecture at this point), Luke had to train without that knowledge. Again, much of his training tends to occur offscreen, but one should assume that George would have wanted to include the most important bits so the audience would be privy to them as well. So, we were treated to Ben and Spirit Ben explaining how to use the Force while Yoda tended to spend more time explaining the why of it all. So, for certain, we never hear anyone tell Luke about Midi's so, as I've said before, there is no reason to assume that they did unless you feel compelled to fill George's holes for him.

In any case, the question that was posed was would this information (about Midi's) actually improve a Padawan's training or wouldn't it matter at all? I'm inclined to think that the more information the better, no matter what skill we're talking about, be it Jedi Training or house building. But some of you seem to differ on that. Hey, to each his own I guess. :) I'll be over to put that addition on your house next weekend. ;)

2-1B
09-16-2003, 02:38 AM
Yeah, that's an interesting idea, but what leads you to believe that Anakin's training wasn't enhanced by his knowledge of Midi's?

When I think about this topic, I see Anakin in AOTC after a 10 year offscreen training period. He is obviously skilled and very talented, a hotshot pilot and all of that . . . look specifically at the run he makes through the Droid Factory. I'm on record as hating that scene because of the Threepio nonsense :rolleyes: but I find the Anakin stuff to be pretty exciting. He tears through those Geo Warriors rather skillfully and he makes it through quite an obstacle course in itself. Fast forward to the Arena Battle and he's deflecting shots, running around, hopping on moving carts, etc. in an impressive showing.
When he goes up against a skilled opponent like Dooku, he gets his butt handed to him in short order.

Anakin's good at this point, VERY good. But not great.

Compare that to Luke in the time from ANH to ESB. A year or three later and Luke is already force pulling a lightsaber out of the snow and THEN he begins his training with Yoda. He moves some stuff around through the air, he does some physical conditioning, hell we don't even SEE him training with a lightsaber (what's that idea about seeing the important stuff onscreen? :rolleyes: ) and when he runs off to face Vader, clearly a skilled opponent like Dooku was (more so, actually), Luke also gets his butt kicked -- but he put up a better fight than his dad did against Dooku. Of course, Vader was not going for the kill or else Luke would have eventually died but I still can't take anything away from Luke's novice effort. :)

And let's go forward another 6 months or a year to ROTJ when Luke is a mega-fighter, making his way out of Jabba's Palace and tearing stuff up during that Skiff battle. That scene reminds me of Ani's run through the Droid Factory and I think it's a nice echo. :)

It seems to me that in approximately 4 years, Luke came close to or even surpassed the point his dad was at after TEN years. As far as I'm concerned, Luke never learned about midichlorians and he still did better than his pop who had this knowledge available to him. The midichlorians are not that essential to Jedi Training, their inclusion in TPM is simply there to show a biological foundation for the physics of this universe in which The Force has come to be seen as a "hokey religion of tricks and nonsense."

Anakin had raw talent but Luke had more heart. :)

stillakid
09-16-2003, 10:23 AM
Anakin had raw talent but Luke had more heart. :)

Agreed! And I think that it is with this exact point that my trouble with Midi's begins. The prior films had a foundation of, well, emotion I suppose. The newer editions tend to be very cold...calculated by comparison. While characters like Luke operated from real human feeling (Reach out), I don't understand why Lucas felt the need to dehumanize the accomplishments of those in his galaxy. Luke did overcome quite a bit in a rather short time with rather limited help. That was definitely worth recognition. And he did it, as you say, without all the knowledge that should have been at his disposal (Midis), without proper training (no one to spar with), and without a sustained and consistent learning environment. To add a concept like Midi's (the physics as you say) to the saga, really undermines the very human struggle that Luke went through, which is something that a very Earth bound audience could empathize with quite easily. Luke has been robbed of everything that allowed him to succeed in the first place. Now all of his accomplishments can be attributed, not to his own perserverence, committment, and internal fortitude, but to tiny little bugs.

(I liken this to the, what I consider, silly statements made by athletes after winning a big game. Usually you hear something like this: "I just gotta thank God for helping us win this game...."

I gotta stop em right there. Two HUGE problems with that. The first is, if God came down from on High to help that schmoe-head win the game, does that mean that he actually wanted the other team to lose? Maybe God had odds on the game, who knows how the guy operates. :rolleyes:

The second thing is that by crediting God with helping him and the team to win, he is suggesting that they required Divine Intervention to do it. In essence, their own skill and perserverence wasn't enough. By crediting a Higher Power, they are suggesting that humans do not have what it takes within themselves to overcome great odds.

This is EXACTLY what the inclusion of Midi's does to the Saga. George has removed that which made this a very human and empathetical story, and reduced it to one in which the characters are incapable of solving their own problems without Divine Intervention.)


Anakin, on the other hand, has been granted superhuman status. Not only does he know about the Midi's, but he is supersaturated as well. Now, perhaps Luke is too after the fact, but we certainly didn't know that back in '77 (and I would bet all that I have to say that neither did George). This argument of mine is based, not entirely on raw argumentative conjecture (ie, Luke was told offscreen, et al), but also on the consistency between the episodes which are supposed to create one larger story. Dropping one domino in the Prequels which wasn't established for the saga earlier (in linear history) doesn't work for me. All the rationalization in the world still means that George wrote and produced a story which requires a significant amount of excuses in order to make it work. And for someone who should know better on how to create a "well told story," it's highly disappointing.

2-1B
09-16-2003, 12:57 PM
stillakid, you agree that Luke got further without the knowledge of the midichlorians, yet you're still hung up on the fact that he "wasn't told." You're arguing that it would make the most sense for him to be "told everything" but you're saying that Luke got far enough without them anyway. To me, that answers your question of what leads me to believe that Anakin's knowledge of the midichlorians didn't enhance his training . . . so I'd like to hear from you why it would be so important for Luke to learn about them when he got so far without them anyway ? :confused:

Nope, I don't buy that thing about "Earth bound audience empathy" at all. Sure, maybe in ANH because Luke shows absolutely no superhuman abilities but when it comes to ESB, FORGET IT. Can you imagine how many times I watched the Wampa scenes when I was a kid and then tried to copy what I saw? I tried time after time after time to Force pull objects to me just like Luke did with that lightsaber in the snow - and I failed EVERY time.
It's impossible.
We don't have the Force here on Earth.
We can't move objects through the air.
We can't play Dr. Mindbender on the weak minded.

Maybe we could all empathize with Luke making a 'one in a million' shot during the Trench Run on the Death Star, but I have to laugh at the idea of human based empathy with Luke from the Wampa Ice Cave, from his levitations on Dagobah, and onward to ROTJ.

And all of this begins 19 years before the midichlorians make their way onscreen. ;)

TheDarthVader
09-16-2003, 01:36 PM
Good points Caesar and funny you should mention trying to force pull objects...when I was young, I would try to levitate objects up into the air. I would close my eyes and concentrate with all of my energy to lift things. I actually pretended that I did lift the particular object but I could not see it because my eyes were closed. It was similar to Yoda keeping his eyes closed in ESB when he lifts Luke's X-wing. The idea is silly now that I am older ;) . But I tried to use the force!!! :crazed:

stillakid
09-16-2003, 01:41 PM
stillakid, you agree that Luke got further without the knowledge of the midichlorians, yet you're still hung up on the fact that he "wasn't told."
No, that's not what I said nor implied. You said that. ;) What I said was that this idea of "who got farther" or whatnot was pure speculation and conjecture. What Luke did do in a non-Midichlorian universe was accomplish everything on his own. Whether he got "further" than Anakin (in a time ratio) is purely speculative. In fact, I happen to disagree with it. Particularly in response to your previous assertion about Luke's lightsaber training (not being onscreen). While certainly, he managed to wield it, it was certainly anything from graceful. In fact, it would be accurate to describe most of his fighting in ROTJ as "hacking away." Very far from the skillful maneveurs that Anakin displayed in AOTC.

So, that being the case, I assume that the rest of this is based on a faulty assumption, but I'll attempt to answer your questions anyhow...


You're arguing that it would make the most sense for him to be "told everything" but you're saying that Luke got far enough without them anyway.
No, as you mentioned before, Vader was taking it easy on Luke because he wanted him alive (particularly in ESB). By no means did Luke learn enough to really adequately defend himself against a foe who would have been out for blood. My original contention is that given the imperative nature of the galatic situation, meaning that the Empire was poised to wipe out the last remnants of the Republic/Rebellion and there were only two Jedi left at the time of ANH, it would seem prudent to teach the "New Hope" absolutely everything there is to know about The Force and what makes it really work.

Of course, then, some people get into the argument about what did or did not happen onscreen and off, which, of course, is pure speculation.



To me, that answers your question of what leads me to believe that Anakin's knowledge of the midichlorians didn't enhance his training . . . so I'd like to hear from you why it would be so important for Luke to learn about them when he got so far without them anyway ? :confused:
See above. From what I saw onscreen in all five movies, Luke didn't learn enough, fast enough, to do what needed to be done if he had to do it all by himself. His moderate "hacking" skills got him by on the Skiff and the same later on prior to taking Vader's hand off. As it turned out, everything worked out because Luke lucked out. (lot's of outs...sorry about that). But anyway, because of Luke's psychological warfare against Vader, he didn't need any "Jedi skills" anyway. Close to being finished off, it was only because Vader saw the light that Luke was saved. "The Force" and "Midi's" and all that other Jedi stuff had nothing to do with it at all. In the end, it was a father's love for his son...a very human act.



Nope, I don't buy that thing about "Earth bound audience empathy" at all. Sure, maybe in ANH because Luke shows absolutely no superhuman abilities but when it comes to ESB, FORGET IT. Can you imagine how many times I watched the Wampa scenes when I was a kid and then tried to copy what I saw? I tried time after time after time to Force pull objects to me just like Luke did with that lightsaber in the snow - and I failed EVERY time.
It's impossible.
We don't have the Force here on Earth.
We can't move objects through the air.
We can't play Dr. Mindbender on the weak minded.
Yeah, well, you could apply that same line of thinking to just about any work of fiction. Rarely do real people talk the way fictional characters talk and even more rarely do any of us act the way fictional characters act. But just because John Connor, or John McClane, or Captain Ahab, or James Bond, or any one of the thousands of "larger than life" fictional characters we enjoy possess toys, skills, or fanciful powers that we will never have ourselves, doesn't mean that the trials and tribulations that they go through can't be applied to our own lives.

So while our suspension of disbelief allows us to enter the story so fully as to believe that Luke can "use the Force" even though we can't, it is his farmboyish naivete and the dream of bigger things that so many people could relate to and empathize with, not your notion that it was the supernatural power that people were gravitating toward. It was his very humanness, both the faults and the ultimate struggle which he accomplished using his human nature, which allowed him to succeed. Yes, he used the Force, but only as a tool, in the same way that any number of fictional heroes use guns, whips, or computers. But it is the addition of Midichlorians, DIVINE INTERVENTION if you will, which now sets Luke and all others like him, above the normal human experience. He has been given a godlike status, as if he were Hercules amongst mere immortals. While I respect George's ambition to meld ancient philosophies and influences together to create a rich tapestry which we know as Star Wars, this is taking it a bit too far. In the same way we could never really relate to an ancient deity, a superhuman like Luke, has been ripped from the fabric of the human experience. And for what? The chance to "explain" The Force? A cheap and easy way to explain that Anakin has potential?

Forever and ever, in the OT (or at least until the Supernifty versions include a Midi reference), audiences will always only see a simple boy who overcame great odds by himself. No Midi's required. But, yes, they do exist we're told, so their absence from the OT is and should be a question worth asking. Not only that, but since they do exist, it taints the OT so that Luke doesn't do this by himself anymore. No, his own human potential isn't enough. Without being supersaturated with parasites, he never could have done it. He barely made it as it is. Apparently, I have far more confidence in what humans can achieve on their own than George does.

And just a side note which actually relates to my other thread about Racism in Star Wars, this reminds me of those stories when the "white guy" is enlisted to go into the minority community or the jungle to help them out of their tough spot. "Send in the white guy to show them the way." We've all seen those kinds of movies before, right? Same thing here, except George has replaced "whitey" with Midichlorians. Humans can't do it...they're f'ing it all up. So send in the Calvary! A Billion Midichlorians arrived on horseback to save the Galaxy. Hoorah! Hoorah!

Oh brother. :rolleyes:

2-1B
09-16-2003, 02:52 PM
No, it's not pure speculation and conjecture. You always talk about onscreen evidence and that's exactly what I based my opinion on.
Your opinion is that Luke was hacking away without grace . . . my opinion is that it doesn't matter. Who cares how graceful he was? What does it matter?What matters to me is his success and the way he ran through the Skif battle is pretty impressive to me.

I didn't mean that you were expressly saying that Luke got further than Anakin, but you may want to rethink this wording:
"Luke did overcome quite a bit in a rather short time with rather limited help. That was definitely worth recognition. And he did it, as you say, without all the knowledge that should have been at his disposal (Midis), without proper training (no one to spar with), and without a sustained and consistent learning environment."
Pardon my apparently innacurate interpretation of your words, but considering the short amount of time that Luke had (compared to Anakin), I think your words actually go to show that Luke WAS ahead of his dad. He may not be on an even level in the end (when you compare Ani in AOTC to Luke in ROTJ) but relatively speaking, Luke was just as good as his dad.

Luke got where he did by "lucking out" ? :confused: Then what's all that talk about people identifying with him? I thought he did it "on his own" ? :confused:
So . . . people love the OT because they can have human empathy for someone who did it all on his own by lucking out? Sounds like a boring way to spend your entertainment time.

He did it himself ? What about that ghost who appeared to him? That's pretty Earth based . . . I suppose the ghost was just another (unearthly) tool like the Force? :confused:

stillakid
09-16-2003, 04:43 PM
Hmm, yeah. The problems with complex situations. Hard to discuss in little bits without seeming to contradict the last. Ultimately I think that this is George's problem, he thought he'd slide some lil' element in there and no one would notice the ramifications.

But let me continue to try...


No, it's not pure speculation and conjecture. You always talk about onscreen evidence and that's exactly what I based my opinion on.
Your opinion is that Luke was hacking away without grace . . . my opinion is that it doesn't matter. Who cares how graceful he was? What does it matter?What matters to me is his success and the way he ran through the Skif battle is pretty impressive to me.
What does it matter? I think Luke's "apparent" skill level is very relevant in comparison to where Anakin was at a similar time in his life.

What we know from onscreen evidence is that Anakin gets indoctrinated into the Jedi education far earlier than Luke. We also know that Anakin learns EVERYTHING there is to know about The Force, including Midichlorians, whereas Luke doesn't. Also, Anakin has the benefit of structured education, apparently with Yoda (as a youngling) and with Obi Wan (as Padawan). Luke has the very brief time with Old Ben and Yoda who only spout off Jedi Bumper Sticker sayings like "Reach out with your feelings" and "Let go!" as opposed to Anakin's teachings which include the very tangible and helpful information regarding Midichlorians as the key to using The Force. We can also SEE quite clearly that Anakin has a far better command of using lightsabers than Luke ever does. Luke does hack away quite clearly, where Anakin manages to fend off a worthy adversary (for a time) with two simultaneously. I'm really not sure how it could be construed any other way. :confused:

The reason why skill level is so relevant is because, despite Luke's apparent success, both on the Sail Barge and on the Death Star, neither climax came as a direct result of his skill level with the Force. As mentioned, on the Sail Barge, he hacked away like a madman at the opposing enemies, at times just pushing them off the deck somehow. On the Death Star, he actually spent most of the time running away, putting up a little resistance now and again until he could get out of harms way. (The reason for this I'll explain later in the "luck" paragraph below) It was only at the end, when he let his anger go, that he utilized brute force and the "hacking away" method to drive Vader back. These sequences go to prove that Luke did not have a significant handle on using the Force, at least to the level which would have been necessary to fight a foe who was truly out to kill him. In fact, when someone does] ultimately decide to do so (the Emperor), Luke is woefully unprepared and would have died were it not for the human response from Vader.

Bottom line: Luke started later than Anakin in training and did not learn all the necessary information which would have accelerated his understanding and command of The Force. This failure on the part of Old Ben and Yoda nearly resulted in Luke losing his life. It was only Luke's undying belief that his father was still "alive" that saved his own life. So, while I used the term "luck" before, it might perhaps be more accurate to describe Luke as having such obstinate optimism in the face of incredible odds as to stand ground until he is proven right. "Luck" is when opportunity meets preparation. Luke went into this conflict with the idea that he could "save" his father. Perhaps the opportunity didn't arise like Luke envisioned it, but his choice at martyrdom was the key to unlocking the good in Vader. Call it lucky that Vader turned, call it the undying hope that Luke went into the dragon's lair with. Either way, it was Luke's humanity that saved his life and his father's. It had nothing at all to do with Midichlorians, which is what Lucas would like us to believe now.


I didn't mean that you were expressly saying that Luke got further than Anakin, but you may want to rethink this wording:
"Luke did overcome quite a bit in a rather short time with rather limited help. That was definitely worth recognition. And he did it, as you say, without all the knowledge that should have been at his disposal (Midis), without proper training (no one to spar with), and without a sustained and consistent learning environment."
Pardon my apparently innacurate interpretation of your words, but considering the short amount of time that Luke had (compared to Anakin), I think your words actually go to show that Luke WAS ahead of his dad. He may not be on an even level in the end (when you compare Ani in AOTC to Luke in ROTJ) but relatively speaking, Luke was just as good as his dad.
As above, I don't agree. Luke was not as good as his dad and I attribute that to two factors. One, Luke started later in life and had a half-arsed education in comparison to Anakin. Two, Luke did not have all the information to work with (ie. Midi's) that Anakin did. Both of these factors essentially crippled Luke as he was forced into entering the conflict far before he was truly ready. It was "fortunate/lucky/incredible foresight" that Luke believed that Vader would turn and ultimately save both of their lives.


Luke got where he did by "lucking out" ? :confused: Then what's all that talk about people identifying with him? I thought he did it "on his own" ? :confused:
I can understand the confusion. "Luck" has that connotation, but as I tried to clarify above, Luke was fortunate that he called the bet correctly about there being good left in his father. Maybe he "felt" it. Maybe he was just guessing. There's no way to tell from the onscreen information as far as I can recall. But either way, Luke got himself into that precarious situation because he displayed attributes that all of us should strive for including optimism, bravery, sincerity, love, loyalty, strength, selflessness... Those are what we can empathize with. Those are the qualities that Luke exhibited on his own. Those are the qualities that ultimately allowed him to be in the position to convince Vader that he should turn back from eternal damnation. Luke did all that "on his own," using his very human and Earth-bound qualities without the aid of some fanciful demi-god cellular creatures.


So . . . people love the OT because they can have human empathy for someone who did it all on his own by lucking out? Sounds like a boring way to spend your entertainment time.
I understand why you read it that way originally. I hope that I've been able to clarify my statements above.


He did it himself ? What about that ghost who appeared to him? That's pretty Earth based . . . I suppose the ghost was just another (unearthly) tool like the Force? :confused:
Yes, the ghost is just another "element" that the writer used to impart information to the hero. It could just have easily been a book, or a computer, or another living being. Doesn't matter. Luke needed some information to get him on the path which would ultimately make him a hero. So Spirit Ben is just like that little dove in Pinocchio who delivers the note explaining where poor Gepetto was. They are both merely conduits for information, tools if you will, to propel the story forward.

But that's what makes fiction so great, the myriad of forms that these types of elements can take in so many various genres. You could easily turn A NEW HOPE into a 1940's style mystery noir piece. A dame gets captured and manages to get word out at the last minute via a comical Chinese. That guy crosses paths with a crazy old street person and a boy who's just dying to get out of the dark recesses of the city. Before they go to rescue the dame, the crazy ol' coot starts teaching the boy how to use a revolver, or a saber or anything else that makes sense. And on and on and on... The elements are there to tell the story and they must make sense within the context of the story and shouldn't contradict or confuse any part of the story. Say the ol coot decides to teach the boy Kung Fu. Suddenly, this noir film isn't making a whole lot of sense. While Kung Fu might be entertaining to watch, when placed in the context of a crazy ol white guy coupled with a young kid in a 1940's Detective Thriller, something is going terribly wrong. In the same way, Midi's tossed in without thorough thought on the part of the writer were just a bad bad idea.

JediTricks
09-17-2003, 04:23 AM
You'll have to pardon me for not expelling a short novel from my fingers here... ;)

you agree that Luke got further without the knowledge of the midichlorians, yet you're still hung up on the fact that he "wasn't told." You're arguing that it would make the most sense for him to be "told everything" but you're saying that Luke got far enough without them anyway. To me, that answers your question of what leads me to believe that Anakin's knowledge of the midichlorians didn't enhance his training . . . so I'd like to hear from you why it would be so important for Luke to learn about them when he got so far without them anyway ? :confused:Ok, I see what you're getting at Caesar, but that leaves a question open in my mind: who made the concious choice to stop telling Jedi in training about Midichlorians between TPM and ANH and how did they get at the realization that knowing about midis hindered padawan learning? Certainly Lucas could answer that in Ep 3, but that would be a discussion for the Ep 3 section. And if he doesn't, I don't think we can simply take it on "off-screen" discussion because that holds no more weight than my theory about Qui-Gon being totally wrong about Midis. (not to mention my theory that Qui-Gon is secretly Anakin's father in an attempt to self-fulfill the prophecy and add weight to his sect of the Jedi's beliefs.)


Nope, I don't buy that thing about "Earth bound audience empathy" at all. Sure, maybe in ANH because Luke shows absolutely no superhuman abilities but when it comes to ESB, FORGET IT. Can you imagine how many times I watched the Wampa scenes when I was a kid and then tried to copy what I saw? I tried time after time after time to Force pull objects to me just like Luke did with that lightsaber in the snow - and I failed EVERY time.
It's impossible.
We don't have the Force here on Earth.
We can't move objects through the air.
We can't play Dr. Mindbender on the weak minded.

Maybe we could all empathize with Luke making a 'one in a million' shot during the Trench Run on the Death Star, but I have to laugh at the idea of human based empathy with Luke from the Wampa Ice Cave, from his levitations on Dagobah, and onward to ROTJ.Ponder this though, if you didn't have that "Earth bound audience empathy", why were you still trying to use the Force? And trust me, you're far from the only one - I still try to this day even though I know better. Empathy doesn't stem from feeling something yourself, it's from relating to others' feelings.

haggie
09-21-2003, 10:52 PM
Specifically, I wonder what your reasoning is that Ben and Yoda didn't explain Midi's to Luke onscreen? Going on the assumption (which I doubt) that Midi's were part of the storyline all along, why would George omit their mention in the OT?

Late-coming to this conversation (got here through JediTricks' footer) and I haven't read all the posts but thought I'd throw an opinion out there. I don't so-much think Georgie had the midi's in mind all along, though he may have. I've always thought that he brought them up in TPM as a means to show the different viewpoints that exist in regards to the Force. These conflicting viewpoints can be seen as a parallel to the different viewpoints in regards to our own existance (science vs. religion). Neither one can be proven as absolutely correct and neither viewpoint absolutely cancels out the other. Some people have a spiritual take on the Force and some have a scientific viewpoint of the Force. Others are on the fence. I've never allowed the addition of midis to override Yoda's soliloquy from TESB. The ideas can co-exist, just as they do in our own universe. Luke is simply tought Yoda's philosophy, just as our parents attempt to teach us theirs.

stillakid
09-21-2003, 11:38 PM
Late-coming to this conversation (got here through JediTricks' footer) and I haven't read all the posts but thought I'd throw an opinion out there. I don't so-much think Georgie had the midi's in mind all along, though he may have. I've always thought that he brought them up in TPM as a means to show the different viewpoints that exist in regards to the Force. These conflicting viewpoints can be seen as a parallel to the different viewpoints in regards to our own existance (science vs. religion). Neither one can be proven as absolutely correct and neither viewpoint absolutely cancels out the other. Some people have a spiritual take on the Force and some have a scientific viewpoint of the Force. Others are on the fence. I've never allowed the addition of midis to override Yoda's soliloquy from TESB. The ideas can co-exist, just as they do in our own universe. Luke is simply tought Yoda's philosophy, just as our parents attempt to teach us theirs.


I've heard this type of take on the topic before, but if that was the case, then why didn't the script play on it at all? Midi's are introduced, used as a tool (to show Anakin having potential) and then later explained (via a very obtrusive snake-oil salesman pitch). But never does anyone really discuss differing viewpoints regarding the Midi's or the Force. Qui Gon mentions them, Obi Wan is right there with him accepting them into the Universe just as if it were water or something common, and Anakin plays the part of the audience POV later on while we're still wondering what the hell George was talking about a few scenes hence.

haggie
09-21-2003, 11:45 PM
I've heard this type of take on the topic before, but if that was the case, then why didn't the script play on it at all? Midi's are introduced, used as a tool (to show Anakin having potential) and then later explained (via a very obtrusive snake-oil salesman pitch). But never does anyone really discuss differing viewpoints regarding the Midi's or the Force. Qui Gon mentions them, Obi Wan is right there with him accepting them into the Universe just as if it were water or something common, and Anakin plays the part of the audience POV later on while we're still wondering what the hell George was talking about a few scenes hence.

...'cause George is a terrible script writer? :p

2-1B
09-22-2003, 03:59 AM
What does it matter? I think Luke's "apparent" skill level is very relevant in comparison to where Anakin was at a similar time in his life.

Similar age, yes. Similar time, no - not when considering their levels of training.


What we know from onscreen evidence is that Anakin gets indoctrinated into the Jedi education far earlier than Luke. We also know that Anakin learns EVERYTHING there is to know about The Force, including Midichlorians, whereas Luke doesn't. Also, Anakin has the benefit of structured education, apparently with Yoda (as a youngling) and with Obi Wan (as Padawan). Luke has the very brief time with Old Ben and Yoda who only spout off Jedi Bumper Sticker sayings like "Reach out with your feelings" and "Let go!" as opposed to Anakin's teachings which include the very tangible and helpful information regarding Midichlorians as the key to using The Force.

What are these tangible teachings? On screen, we see Anakin learn about the midis only because he asked about them. Sure, he likely would learn about them in his training at some point . . . but those same "Jedi Bumper Sticker sayings" from the OT are very much present in Yoda's instructions to the younglings during AOTC. They are also present in TPM as Qui-Gon talks to Ani before the podrace.


We can also SEE quite clearly that Anakin has a far better command of using lightsabers than Luke ever does. Luke does hack away quite clearly, where Anakin manages to fend off a worthy adversary (for a time) with two simultaneously. I'm really not sure how it could be construed any other way. :confused:

Yes, Luke hacks away but my point was that he WAS successful in surviving those adversities. Not bad for someone with such little training.


The reason why skill level is so relevant is because, despite Luke's apparent success, both on the Sail Barge and on the Death Star, neither climax came as a direct result of his skill level with the Force.

I fully disagree.
I doubt a blind Han Solo could have deflected those laser bolts with a lightsaber, even though a "blinded" Luke on the Falcon in ANH was already beginning to learn how to block with a lightsaber. Without that skill, he might not have made it out alive.


Bottom line: Luke started later than Anakin in training and did not learn all the necessary information which would have accelerated his understanding and command of The Force. This failure on the part of Old Ben and Yoda nearly resulted in Luke losing his life.

Isn't that the whole point? Let's not forget that Luke LEFT HIS TRAINING EARLY. This argument about the value of learning about the midis might be more valid if we saw Luke arrive on Dagobah, get some training from Yoda and spirit Ben, and then be sent off by them to fight Vader and save the galaxy.

No, instead Luke showed up, got some training (Yoda didn't even bother to help Luke with learning how to better use a lightsaber -- remember, it was never shown onscreen) and he LEFT against the judgement of Yoda and Luke. Yoda even lamented in ROTJ that Luke left before completing his training. Yoda knew that Luke was not ready to leave so I think it's logical that there was more wisdom to impart.
It's not their fault that Luke left early and didn't finish his training.


Either way, it was Luke's humanity that saved his life and his father's. It had nothing at all to do with Midichlorians, which is what Lucas would like us to believe now.

He would?
When did Lucas do anything to give THAT impression? As you said, and I agree with, it was Luke's humanity that saved his father. Midichlorians have nothing to do with it and their existence does not compromise the humanity of the situation in ANY way.

You say that the Force is just a tool for a human character to use . . . but the Force has to come from SOMEWHERE. Now if you just want to accept that it exists as a given without any other explanation, I respect that. But you are STILL dealing with non-human elements because these human characters exist in a universe very much unlike our own. Whether a very human-like Luke is using a very un-human like tool as The Force or whether a very human-like Luke is tapping into a very un-human like entity (or not so un-human like as DarthVyn might argue ;) ) such as the midichlorians, it's really the same thing to me.

You seem to say that we can no longer empathize with Luke because of these midichlorians but we can sympathize with him as he uses magical powers that we don't have. Sorry, I don't see the difference.


As above, I don't agree. Luke was not as good as his dad and I attribute that to two factors. One, Luke started later in life and had a half-arsed education in comparison to Anakin. Two, Luke did not have all the information to work with (ie. Midi's) that Anakin did. Both of these factors essentially crippled Luke as he was forced into entering the conflict far before he was truly ready.

Okay, when I said Luke was as good as his dad, I meant it in a relative manner. He was not technically as good because he had such little experience with / exposure to the Force but considering that, I think Luke did pretty well.
When and how was Luke "forced into entering the conflict far before he was truly ready" ?
He chose to leave.
He wasn't forced into anything.
He made an honorable decision but it almost got himself and his friends killed.


I can understand the confusion. "Luck" has that connotation, but as I tried to clarify above, Luke was fortunate that he called the bet correctly about there being good left in his father. Maybe he "felt" it. Maybe he was just guessing. There's no way to tell from the onscreen information as far as I can recall.

Luke told Leia onscreen that he could sense the good in Vader.


But either way, Luke got himself into that precarious situation because he displayed attributes that all of us should strive for including optimism, bravery, sincerity, love, loyalty, strength, selflessness... Those are what we can empathize with. Those are the qualities that Luke exhibited on his own. Those are the qualities that ultimately allowed him to be in the position to convince Vader that he should turn back from eternal damnation. Luke did all that "on his own," using his very human and Earth-bound qualities without the aid of some fanciful demi-god cellular creatures.

WHERE is it even implied that midichlorians have ANYTHING at all to do with those qualities he showed? Jeez, if The Force had no role in Luke showing those qualities, then neither did the midichlorians! And then you can still relate to him.


Yes, the ghost is just another "element" that the writer used to impart information to the hero. It could just have easily been a book, or a computer, or another living being. Doesn't matter. Luke needed some information to get him on the path which would ultimately make him a hero. So Spirit Ben is just like that little dove in Pinocchio who delivers the note explaining where poor Gepetto was. They are both merely conduits for information, tools if you will, to propel the story forward.

Yes, and very un-human conduits at that. Within our universe, when people start talking about how an old spirit has been talking to him/her . . . well that's usually when we start to consider putting grandpa/grandma into a home. No, I'm not saying that sarcastically. Seriously, if midichlorians are to be criticized as "Divine Intervention", well this spirit of Ben is not just another element. "A book, or a computer, or another living being" are NOT the same as a ghost because those are all things we have in this universe, too.


Ok, I see what you're getting at Caesar, but that leaves a question open in my mind: who made the concious choice to stop telling Jedi in training about Midichlorians between TPM and ANH and how did they get at the realization that knowing about midis hindered padawan learning?

Ummmm, probably Yoda since he's the one who most likely decided to drop the whole lightsaber training between AOTC and ESB. Luckily for Luke, Obi-Wan gave him a very valuable two and a half minutes of Lightsaber 101 on the Falcon in ANH. Can anyone tell me where Luke picked up that "lightsaber pull out of the snow trick" that he did in ESB? I mean, I saw Obi-Wan do it in AOTC but I don't remember Old Ben imparting that information to young Luke.

More seriously JT, I'd guess NOBODY made a conscious decision to stop telling Jedi-in-training about the midis because they were "all but extinct" by ANH ?


Ponder this though, if you didn't have that "Earth bound audience empathy", why were you still trying to use the Force? And trust me, you're far from the only one - I still try to this day even though I know better. Empathy doesn't stem from feeling something yourself, it's from relating to others' feelings.

Actually, I did and still do have that empathy. Sure, I KNEW I could never do what Luke did but it didn't stop me from experiencing the journey with him. That's my point to stillakid's anti-midichlorian argument. If I can empathize with Luke in spite of the fact that he is a human living in a universe consisting of lightsabers, friendly and helpful ghosts, and an energy field which allows him to levitate objects through the air, well then I can CERTAINLY empathize with him even though he and every other person in the saga have symbiants in their cells which allow for the use of that same magical energy field.


I've heard this type of take on the topic before, but if that was the case, then why didn't the script play on it at all?

Maybe George thought it would suffice to just let it play out on the internet? :D

stillakid
09-23-2003, 12:18 PM
Similar age, yes. Similar time, no - not when considering their levels of training.
:confused: Anakin had both A) more time to train than Luke, and B) more information and a more structured learning environment than Luke. That said, it is also readily apparent onscreen that Luke's lightsaber skills are nowhere near what Anakin's are as of the last time we've seen both.




What are these tangible teachings? On screen, we see Anakin learn about the midis only because he asked about them. Sure, he likely would learn about them in his training at some point . . . but those same "Jedi Bumper Sticker sayings" from the OT are very much present in Yoda's instructions to the younglings during AOTC. They are also present in TPM as Qui-Gon talks to Ani before the podrace.
The tangible teachings are about the Midichlorians. Yes, they use Jedi Bumper sticker sayings in both trilogies, but the point again is that the Jedi in the Prequels also get taught the science of how to use the Force, and aren't forced to just rely on non-specific bumper sticker sayings to get there.




Yes, Luke hacks away but my point was that he WAS successful in surviving those adversities. Not bad for someone with such little training.
Let's look at his bouts for a second:

1) REMOTE on the Falcon: Got shot in the hindquarters, but did manage to deflect a couple shots after "Letting go." True, not bad when blindfolded, but the question remained about how he might do against "the living."

2) WAMPA in the snowcave: Luke vs. dumb animal. One swipe and it was over. Not exactly an even match nor even really a true swordfight.

3) FAUX-VADER on Dagobah: Luke manages to deflect a couple of fairly simple strikes. Then the apparition drops his own saber giving Luke far more time than is fair to blast the head off. Not really much of a contest.

4) VADER on Bespin: Now Luke has to really test his fighting skills. True, he does manage to stay alive...however it's not like Vader was really trying to kill or hurt the boy either. While Luke probably felt like he was seriously fighting for his life, Vader wasn't putting his all into it. The motivation to maim or kill Luke just wasn't there, so that's the proof that tells us that Luke didn't really have a true fight occurring.

5) AT AT on Hoth: Not so much a fight as Luke just using the saber as a tool. That and a grenade = a big boom!

6) ALIEN GOONS on Sailbarge: Some laser deflections and the beginnings of what we see to be Luke's "style" of "hacking away" at his adversaries.

7) VADER on the Death Star 2- part I: His moment of truth. Again, he isn't really interested in fighting. This is more of a psychological was between he and Palpatine for Vader's soul. Sure, Luke deflects just a few blows from Vader, but again, there isn't much of a fight going on. Lot's of running away.

8) VADER on the Death Star 2- part II: Luke gets angry and strikes out at Vader for real. Inexplicably Vader's ability to fight Luke off goes away, and Luke manages to drive his opponent off mainly with large sweeping hacking motions of his lightsaber. Then, only when Vader falls for some reason or other, Luke continues his large hacking motions as if he is wielding an axe. Victory? Yes, but hardly with any semblance of swordsmanship relative to what we saw Anakin manage in AOTC.





I fully disagree.
I doubt a blind Han Solo could have deflected those laser bolts with a lightsaber, even though a "blinded" Luke on the Falcon in ANH was already beginning to learn how to block with a lightsaber. Without that skill, he might not have made it out alive.
No, Han couldn't have which is why we know that the Force works. But you're conveniently forgetting the denoument of that scene in which Solo says "Going against remotes is one thing, going against the living is another." Well written films say things like this because it is all important information for the audience to keep in mind. Good writers don't just toss in dialogue (Yippee!) all willy nilly "just because real teenagers would say something like that."




Isn't that the whole point? Let's not forget that Luke LEFT HIS TRAINING EARLY. This argument about the value of learning about the midis might be more valid if we saw Luke arrive on Dagobah, get some training from Yoda and spirit Ben, and then be sent off by them to fight Vader and save the galaxy.

No, instead Luke showed up, got some training (Yoda didn't even bother to help Luke with learning how to better use a lightsaber -- remember, it was never shown onscreen) and he LEFT against the judgement of Yoda and Luke. Yoda even lamented in ROTJ that Luke left before completing his training. Yoda knew that Luke was not ready to leave so I think it's logical that there was more wisdom to impart.
It's not their fault that Luke left early and didn't finish his training.
Hmm, I like you're thinking here, but this is where the insertion of Midi's really starts to muck up the works. EVERYTHING you say above makes complete sense in a pre-Midi world. When you say correctly that "there was more wisdom to impart", in a pre-Midi world, it was entirely logical to assume that Luke just hadn't learned "control" as Yoda says in the script. Now, that time element may or may not have been to go to the next chapter where they'd learn about the science behind the Force, but if it was, then it goes back to my initial question: In a galaxy that is up against a wall with only one hope left (in Luke), why wouldn't Ben and Yoda step it up and give Luke every tool available to him to get up to speed quicker?



He would?
When did Lucas do anything to give THAT impression? As you said, and I agree with, it was Luke's humanity that saved his father. Midichlorians have nothing to do with it and their existence does not compromise the humanity of the situation in ANY way.

You say that the Force is just a tool for a human character to use . . . but the Force has to come from SOMEWHERE. Now if you just want to accept that it exists as a given without any other explanation, I respect that. But you are STILL dealing with non-human elements because these human characters exist in a universe very much unlike our own. Whether a very human-like Luke is using a very un-human like tool as The Force or whether a very human-like Luke is tapping into a very un-human like entity (or not so un-human like as DarthVyn might argue ;) ) such as the midichlorians, it's really the same thing to me.


You seem to say that we can no longer empathize with Luke because of these midichlorians but we can sympathize with him as he uses magical powers that we don't have. Sorry, I don't see the difference.

Right, I see the problem. Let me give this a go. What I am suggesting is that we can empathize with a pre-Midi infested Luke because The Force is just a tool in this story, just as a gun or other "non-integrated" element is in any other story. We can only sympathize with a post-Midi infested Luke because now he isn't just learning to use a tool...he has superpower help from a Godlike entity...Divine Intervention if you will (I freely use that argument because George himself used Midi's to imply a virgin conception of Anakin...the parallels he is trying to make between GOD and MIDI's is very clear).

To make it simplier, The Force is an EXTERNAL element to the characters in the story...and element just like a gun or computer or car, etc that any human could learn to use.

Midi's are INTERNAL elements to the characters which grant them superpowers that normal Earthbound humans can never have.


Okay, when I said Luke was as good as his dad, I meant it in a relative manner. He was not technically as good because he had such little experience with / exposure to the Force but considering that, I think Luke did pretty well.
When and how was Luke "forced into entering the conflict far before he was truly ready" ?
He chose to leave.
He wasn't forced into anything.
He made an honorable decision but it almost got himself and his friends killed.
Sure, everything we do is a choice, but when Uncle Owen and Beru were killed, he didn't have much of a choice but to go with Obi Wan. Had he stayed, it was likely that the Stormtroopers would have found him and shook him down to find out where the droids went. Let's see, death or go with Obi Wan to join the Rebellion, which is what he wanted anyway? He both was forced to go and made the choice to go. He wasn't emotionally ready but Obi Wan talked him into it anyway.




WHERE is it even implied that midichlorians have ANYTHING at all to do with those qualities he showed? Jeez, if The Force had no role in Luke showing those qualities, then neither did the midichlorians! And then you can still relate to him. .
Nope. Those qualities are distinctly human qualities, they don't come from The Force or Midi's. However, we can't relate to Luke anymore because he no longer succeeded because of those qualities. He succeeded because he was predisposed to being a superhero instead of being a normal restless teenager as we have here on Earth.




I gotta get out the door, but I'll continue to think about the last quotes from your last and get back to you. Thanks! :)

Turambar
09-24-2003, 06:21 PM
Well postulated, Vyn ! :)

The idea of midichlorians replicating inside the cell pretty much clears up my confusion as to why at least one of Obi-Wan's parents was not also a Jedi.

thanks. :)

This doesn't make sense, though, because the OT implies that being a Jedi is hereditary. Neither Yoda, Obi-Wan, Luke, nor Vader ever had a midi count on Leia, but they knew she was strong in force. Why? Because, "the force is strong in my family" and "if you won't turn then maybe she will" and "there is another." All of these from people that hadn't been around Leia, yet knew she was powerful in the force since she was Vader's offspring. Okay, so maybe when they were born Yoda and Obi-Wan took a midi count, but Luke and especially Vader didn't know about this.
Furthermore, if the Jedi trait isn't hereditary, then Vader & Palpatine would have to be continuously scouring the galaxy for all the jedi babies being born to non-force sensitive parents. From the OT, though, "their fire has gone out of the galaxy", Vader is the last of them known. It seems that Vader is content that the Jedi are extinct and he can sit back and relax since no more force sesitive beings will be born. Yoda and Ben seem to be of the same opinion since Luke and Leia are their last hope. Otherwise they'd just wait for the next force-sensitive kid to be born and train the child from an early age.
So who are the parents of Jedi? The trait must be hereditary, but it doesn't make sense for the council to be breeding them out by not allowing the jedi to have mates. The only explanations I see are: 1) all jedi are born from force-sensitive parents on outer rim planets that weren't detected by the council, but somehow their infant is, or 2) Jedi are having one night stands with people around the galaxy (which would make a lot more sense in Shmi's case). Option 2 wouldn't be so far-fetched because, as I posted earlier, since the children are kidnapped from their parents at a very young age, the Jedi wouldn't feel guilty about abandoning a mother and child without any support.

Wait a minute! maybe some parents are able to prevent the jedi from taking their kids. Then the force-sensitive child grows up and has offspring of his/her own which they aren't able to keep the council from taking! How does that sound? Who knows, maybe Jedi come from a combination of all three methods.

Getting back to the midi issue now, as I've posted earlier, Qui-Gon's gateway theory doesn't seem scientifically possible. I don't see how parasites can create impulses that allow a Jedi to use the force let alone actually feel it. QG must be mistaken. Even more impossible would be for these little non-human creatures can crank out a human sperm cell complete with human DNA and somehow get it down to Shmi's womb at the precise time necessary to fertilize the egg.
Finally, if the midi's are these little force energy factories in the cell and could accomplish all of the above, why couldn't they be grown in a petri dish in labs and implanted in people to make them Jedi since midis are the measure of a Jedi's power according to TPM.

CropDuster
09-24-2003, 09:04 PM
Mitochondr...I mean, -chlorians have no place in star wars. To say they are needed to gauge the power of the force one has is pointless and redundant. Jedi know if someone is powerful or not in the same way that you can touch 2 hot objects and conclude which one is warmer than the other. If you're asked which is hotter you don't have to take temperature readings to figure it out. You can utilize what is referred to as common sense and intuition. It's that simple. Midi's just aren't necessary. In fact, they, in conjunction with other foolish elements that Lucas has added to the storyline in the prequels, just clutter and bog down the flow of the tale. The prequels are fun and entertaining, but not great. They had the potential to be among the greatest. The difference between them and the OT is that the OT was the product of many talented individuals, where, with the prequels, Lucas's big head is getting in the way of the story. On top of that I think he's more interested in playing with his digital effects than anything else. I could argue as to why I think it's moronic to assume certain things were done off screen and why the existence of other things doesn't make sense, but instead I'll try and wait until technology permits me to cut the nonsense from the movies (that includes the painful musical in Jabba's palace SE, and the obnoxious Mee-sa Jar Jar Binks).

Beast
09-24-2003, 09:24 PM
There is a need to gauge the power of the force one has, because it -cannot- be sensed. Note ANH, that Vader has no knowledge and cannot sense Luke or Leia at all. All he senses is Obi-Wan Kenobi. Pointing to the fact that detecting the ability to weild the force is not something that is possible. Clearly it depends on being familar with the person that you're sensing.

"I sense something, a presence I've not felt since...." He detects Obi-Wan Kenobi easily, as he's familer with his force presence. Leia and Luke are religated to a background hum and do not automatically trigger Vader's Force Sense. Note that even in the battle of Yavin, Vader doesn't sense Luke's Force Presence, he's detecting Obi-Wan Kenobi's audible manifestation in the cockpit.

How can you use commen sense and intuition to detect someone that doesn't show up to your force sense. That's why there are blood test checks for high counts of Midiclorians. Then those that come off as having more potential can be tested by the council to see if they are in tune with the force enough to be worth training.

Argue all you want that it's Moronic to assume that things take place off screen. But it happens. We didn't see every second of Luke's training on Dagobah. And guess what, we never saw Lando make a deal to keep the Empire out of Bespin with Vader. Note especially that the lightsaber training was never shown. We didn't see the 3 years between ANH and ESB or the 6 months to a year between ESB and ROTJ. So we should assume that nothing happened during that time either. :rolleyes: :p

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Turambar
09-25-2003, 04:02 AM
In the deathstar trench Vader is feeling Luke's potential. Notice he says, "The force is strong in this one." If it had been Obi-Wan, he would have said something like, "I sense something. . . a presence I've not felt since. . . since I just cut down OBK not to long ago."
Also, in TPM, Qui-Gon says "the force is UNUSUALLY strong in him" referring to an Anakin whose midi count has not yet been measured.

My theory now is that the force is only felt when someone starts to use it. Anakin was on an outer rim territory so his use of the force was not detected by the council as QG told us. From ANH, it seems that Luke may have been using the same great pilot tricks that Ani did, but again, he is on an outer rim territory and doesn't cause a ripple that can be felt by palpy & vader. It's not until Luke moves in closer and begins developing his skills a little more that Palpy & Vader notice the "great disturbance in the force." This would also make sense in that nobody ever detected that Leia was force-sensitive since she never used the force (unless you want to count the bespin thing where she & luke communicated, but that could be explained by them being so close and twins that maybe their vibes were so similar that Vader couldn't notice a significant difference).
This might also explain the whole jedi parent thing. If someone is born force-sensitive, but never uses the force knowingly or unknowingly, the council would never detect them. Then, one day, the person's offspring starts using the force and voila! the council feels the ripples and sends some jedi to abduct the kid. The distance factor would also hold true since we see that no one in the outer rim can cause a tremor large enough to be detected (Ani, Luke, Old Ben), so force sensitive parents could have a force-sensitive kid and move in closer to the core where they'd be detected but too old to be trained except for the baby whom the council would take.
Am I on to something here? Someone chime in

stillakid
09-25-2003, 11:25 AM
There is a need to gauge the power of the force one has, because it -cannot- be sensed. Note ANH, that Vader has no knowledge and cannot sense Luke or Leia at all. All he senses is Obi-Wan Kenobi. Pointing to the fact that detecting the ability to weild the force is not something that is possible. Clearly it depends on being familar with the person that you're sensing.


No, you're wrong. It has nothing to do with "being familiar" with the person you're sensing. :rolleyes:

What enables Vader to "feel" the presence of Obi or Luke (later on) is that they are "users" of the Force. In ANH, Luke's "influence" on the Force in like a tiny little pebble, or less, in a giant pond. Old Ben is like tossing a large rock which creates much larger waves. The "tremors" that Vader talks about. Yoda even describes the Force as an energy field created by all living things which also connects everything. So, whenever a person "uses" the Force, they are creating "waves" in the fabric which makes up the Force. This is why other people who have trained properly can "sense" when other Force sensitive people are around them. (this is all taken away by Midichlorians which enables those who are chock full o' Midi's to just use this power without any training at all.) When Alderaan blows up, that massive destruction of life creates a tsunami sized wave which even Old Ben can "feel" so far away. What would have been really interesting would be to see Vader's reaction to the explosion, being that he was so close to it.



Argue all you want that it's Moronic to assume that things take place off screen. But it happens. We didn't see every second of Luke's training on Dagobah. And guess what, we never saw Lando make a deal to keep the Empire out of Bespin with Vader. Note especially that the lightsaber training was never shown. We didn't see the 3 years between ANH and ESB or the 6 months to a year between ESB and ROTJ. So we should assume that nothing happened during that time either. :rolleyes: :p

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

sigh. Yeah, things happen offscreen, but some things we don't have to see happen onscreen for the story to make sense. That's one thing. But using this argument across the board to rationalize out inconsistencies is another. Midichlorians, while seemingly a small inconsequential element, introduce a variety of inconsistent ramifications throughout the other films which don't mention them at all. A lot of times, especially in mysteries, it is what doesn't happen onscreen which fuels the drama. Nobody is going to argue that. But that is a world of difference from tossing elements into the story all willy nilly and not explaining why they are there and how they relate to the rest of it. Even a good murder mystery eventually lets us in on all that stuff we didn't see.

But if you see fit to make excuses for George's mistakes by claiming that everything that isn't adequately explained "happens offscreen," then that's your perojative. Doesn't make it right, but as long as you're happy and buy his products, that's really all that matters. :)

stillakid
09-25-2003, 11:56 AM
Yes, and very un-human conduits at that. Within our universe, when people start talking about how an old spirit has been talking to him/her . . . well that's usually when we start to consider putting grandpa/grandma into a home. No, I'm not saying that sarcastically. Seriously, if midichlorians are to be criticized as "Divine Intervention", well this spirit of Ben is not just another element. "A book, or a computer, or another living being" are NOT the same as a ghost because those are all things we have in this universe, too.

But this is a story. But a good story has primary heroic characters whom we can empathize with. Old Ben wasn't one of the main hero's in the OT. He was just a vehicle to get Luke involved in the large scope of things. So the fictional element of this saga turns him into a ghost. What for? Well, I'll tell you. :)

Had Obi not been in the story and brought Luke into the story, then Luke would have had to find his own way off the planet and stumble around until he managed to find the Rebellion. But this wouldn't have introduced him to The Force...the very thing that allows him to step into the dragon's lair at the end and slay the foe (in ROTJ). So, Obi is A) the vehicle to get him off planet, and B) Luke's introduction to The Force (the tool he uses to "win").

Next, Obi has to die, because Luke has to face the dragon alone in order to follow the well worn mythical traditions that Lucas was emulating. Why? Because it works. Had Obi lived, Luke would have had a crutch in his master and wouldn't have had the pressure of being the last hope.

Okay, so now we have the hero alone but in desperate need of more training about this Force thing. What to do? Well, he could have gone back to Obi Wan's little hut and found some kind of goofy manual: "The Force for Dummies" or something. But that's dumb and boring (to watch sit around and read a book), so Lucas didn't do it that way thank god. It was far more interesting to have that additional Force information come out of somebody's mouth. Because it's sci-fi, a funny little alien pops out of the woodwork. But how would Luke even learn about this? Again, Luke could have gone back to Tatooine and dug some scrap of paper up with Yoda's address on it. But that's dumb and it would have ruined the flow of the story to just have Luke leave where he was to go do this one thing. So, bam, we have a dead Jedi with the power of appearing whenever he needs to to impart information, ala the birds in Pinnochio. Yeah, I suppose we don't have ghosts in this world, but it doesn't matter. We also don't have aliens and spaceships and speederbikes. The point of a well-written story isn't to have the audience empathize with the production design or the elements which get the characters from one sequence to the next. It's to create main heroic characters who have enough ambition to overcome their flaws which enable them to succeed despite the greatest of odds. In other words, ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances. Luke was ordinary, before being infused with Midis. He was someone we could empathize with, even though his specific "story" was something far removed from our reality.


Just a little more on that, I think that it's in the book SPLINTER OF THE MIND'S EYE, that Luke has to find some goofball Kyber Crystal or something that is a "conduit" for the Force. :rolleyes: Just like Midichlorians, now the characters don't succeed on their own, they have external help which enables them to tap into something greater than themselves. Luke very easily could have made the trip to Dagaboh and not found a little Jedi master, but instead found a magic crystal which "focused" the Force for him or something goofy like that. But that's so obviously bad sci-fi that George was wise enough back then to have Luke have to learn about the Force and not just start using it via a magical external element. But he forgot about that when the Midi's popped into his brain. Weird.




Actually, I did and still do have that empathy. Sure, I KNEW I could never do what Luke did but it didn't stop me from experiencing the journey with him. That's my point to stillakid's anti-midichlorian argument. If I can empathize with Luke in spite of the fact that he is a human living in a universe consisting of lightsabers, friendly and helpful ghosts, and an energy field which allows him to levitate objects through the air, well then I can CERTAINLY empathize with him even though he and every other person in the saga have symbiants in their cells which allow for the use of that same magical energy field.

Yes, I see. You're tossing Midi's in with the Lightsabers and the other cool sci-fi stuff. Whereas I make the distinction between them. Midi's are an element which give the hero favor over and above what should be expected. I don't know, I guess it's like saying that if Bruce Willis's character in Die Hard succeeds, but we find out later that he was really bionic or something. That kind of "extra" which is granted a hero really takes away from the hero's own accomplishments. Suddenly, John McClane isn't struggling quite as hard to succeed as we thought he was. He is predisposed to success. And with the introduction of Midi's into Luke's bloodstream, the same is true, and something is lost.

CropDuster
09-25-2003, 12:52 PM
Ehhhhh, George can be a real hack sometimes but when it comes to the midis I'm inclined to give him more credit than this.
Lucas talked before about the similarities to mitochondria . . . I think he knew what he was talking about and why he was doing it. :)
I'm not so inclined. I may be beating a dead horse here, but scientific explanations for midi's (analogous to mitochonria) just don't work for the total storyline if we are to assume that Ani was conceived by these things. From a DNA standpoint the mitochndrias plasmidlike DNA and a human egg's haploid set of genes are totally incompatible, and they use a totally different set of codons, thus making a genetic cross of the two impossible (not to mention the physical impossibilities).

stillakid
09-25-2003, 04:43 PM
I'm not so inclined. I may be beating a dead horse here, but scientific explanations for midi's (analogous to mitochonria) just don't work for the total storyline if we are to assume that Ani was conceived by these things. From a DNA standpoint the mitochndrias plasmidlike DNA and a human egg's haploid set of genes are totally incompatible, and they use a totally different set of codons, thus making a genetic cross of the two impossible (not to mention the physical impossibilities).


Hey! If Jeff Goldblum can interface his IMAC with an alien computer in ID4, then who's to say that Midi's can't make babies? :crazed:

Oh, right, I'm sure all of the technical info that explains it all was offscreen where it wasn't really needed. :rolleyes:

;)

Beast
09-25-2003, 04:55 PM
Or let's just forget that these are 'fantasy' movies and that some suspension of disbelief should be used. If not, feel free to start threads about how unrealistic A.I. tech is in Star Wars. Or the sound in space issues. Or other such aspects. It's space fantasy. If you want hardcore science, don't look for it in Star Wars. It's not Star Trek with it's BS pseudo Science after all. :rolleyes: :p

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Turambar
09-25-2003, 07:21 PM
Or let's just forget that these are 'fantasy' movies and that some suspension of disbelief should be used. If not, feel free to start threads about how unrealistic A.I. tech is in Star Wars. Or the sound in space issues. Or other such aspects. It's space fantasy. If you want hardcore science, don't look for it in Star Wars. It's not Star Trek with it's BS pseudo Science after all. :rolleyes: :p

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

EXACTLY!!!
That was why I started this thread. Star Wars is a fantasy. In fanatasy the magical elements don't need explaining because we understand it is a different place with different elements, and instead, we focus on the ideologies presented. The intro of midis attempted to quickly explain away the magic using parasites. It dropped da bomb in the midst of the grand concept of the force that the OT had elegantly constructed.
Midis never needed to be mentioned; their introduction is confusing and distracts from the point of the movies while devaluating the nature of the force.

Beast
09-25-2003, 07:46 PM
No, Midis do not diminish the fantasy. And it's only confusing if you choose to nitpick the mention to death. It's just showing how Jedi's can find children with potential. Children are tested young, if they have a good number of them, then they are likely choices for training. Just having a high number of them, doesn't mean someone is going to succeed at training. It just means they have a genetic predisposition for being able to feel/weild the force better then someone with a lower count. Just like healthier people likely have a higher number of white blood cells. It doesn't mean they can't get sick, it just means they are less likely to. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
09-26-2003, 11:33 AM
No, Midis do not diminish the fantasy. And it's only confusing if you choose to nitpick the mention to death.


Right, it's only confusing if you choose to ignore the rest of the story and just "enjoy" the film on the most superficial of levels. I'm not suggesting that that isn't a viable method of experiencing any form of entertainment. Even I let go of that sort of methodical critique when watching other films (ie ID4 for instance). But the OT set a high standard when it presented a solid and consistent story with characters to care about. But that kind of enjoyment becomes difficult when a follow-up film from the same "series" lacks that cohesion of elements. Unless, of course, you choose to look away and "just enjoy it."

Turambar
09-26-2003, 02:10 PM
I've got an idea. Maybe in E3 Palpy will start a propaganda campaign much like the nazis did. He can erase all records of midis and teach that the force stuff is just a fairy tale. Maybe that would explain its status as a "hokey religion" by the time we get to ANH.
ANH presents the force as a faith-based concept with all the "no mystical energy field controls my destiny""you don't believe in the force""I call it luck" etc. and Tarkin & Vaders discussion about his devotion to that ancient religion. So maybe 20 yrs of propaganda turns it into this.

Still, I think if old Ben knew about midis, he could have easily settled his dispute with Solo by instead of replying, "in my experience, there's no such thing as luck" he said, "well, all living things have these symbiotic organisms living inside their cells. these allow us to feel the force. luke & I have a higher concentration than you so we have the advantage in being able to feel its presence easier. If you don't believe me lets all get a blood sample and I'll show you. most older ships like this have midichlorian counters on board." maybe GL can alter the scene so it plays out like that in the archival additions.

JediTricks
09-27-2003, 12:27 AM
No, you're wrong. It has nothing to do with "being familiar" with the person you're sensing. :rolleyes:Actually, it is you who appears to be wrong here. Nowhere in the saga does anybody "sense" a regular Force-user nearby unless they know them. Vader doesn't sense Luke on the Death Star nor in the trench until Obi-Wan-as-the-Force visits the boy, the Emperor doesn't sense Luke on the Imperial Shuttle near Endor even though Vader does, Luke doesn't sense Vader during the Bespin attacks, Luke doesn't sense that the Emperor is a powerful Sith on the DS2, Qui-Gon doesn't sense Maul during the Tatooine attack, Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan are totally surprised by Maul when the doors open to the final battle of TPM, and Dooku doesn't sense Obi-Wan when he's only a few meters away spying on Dooku's meeting with the separatists on Geonosis in AOTC.

Yet Vader senses Obi-Wan on the Death Star, Vader senses Luke's approach to Endor, and Dooku senses Yoda in AOTC (though he might simply have recognized his shadow ;)).



As for midis, unless Lucas weaves a great save in Ep 3, I will continue to believe Qui-Gon was full of it on that theory and their addition to Ep 1 was a massive blunder - there's "fantasy" and then there's "fantacrap" (as Jay Sherman would say), and I firmly feel that midichlorians fall deep into the latter's territory.

CropDuster
09-27-2003, 11:37 AM
Perhaps, George is attempting to use a jedi mind trick on us! :p

stillakid
09-27-2003, 05:50 PM
Actually, it is you who appears to be wrong here. Nowhere in the saga does anybody "sense" a regular Force-user nearby unless they know them. Vader doesn't sense Luke on the Death Star nor in the trench until Obi-Wan-as-the-Force visits the boy, the Emperor doesn't sense Luke on the Imperial Shuttle near Endor even though Vader does, Luke doesn't sense Vader during the Bespin attacks, Luke doesn't sense that the Emperor is a powerful Sith on the DS2, Qui-Gon doesn't sense Maul during the Tatooine attack, Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan are totally surprised by Maul when the doors open to the final battle of TPM, and Dooku doesn't sense Obi-Wan when he's only a few meters away spying on Dooku's meeting with the separatists on Geonosis in AOTC.

Yet Vader senses Obi-Wan on the Death Star, Vader senses Luke's approach to Endor, and Dooku senses Yoda in AOTC (though he might simply have recognized his shadow ;)).


I respectfully disagree with your assessment. :) In any one of those instances where you suggest that someone isn't "felt," you don't know that. You're only assuming as such because they haven't spoken the words, "I sense something" slightly before being attacked or what have you.

To avoid the tedium of going through every one of your examples above, suffice it to say that when Obi and Qui are "surprised" by Maul behind the door, it doesn't mean that they didn't sense him at all. In all likelihood, they did sense him somewhere. But, as you point out also, this isn't a very specific "locator" either. Vader sensed Old Ben, but couldn't really place him on the ship to any degree. In fact, it is more likely that he figured Old Ben had already "escaped" onto the Death Star or else he would have sent more than a two-man scanning crew aboard to find him. In the case of the Emperor apparently not sensing Luke on Endor, I suppose the argument could go either way. Both rely on pure conjecture, but because there is no other "evidence" in the saga to support this "must know the person" scenario, I'm prone to think that Palpatine's Force sense was just getting clogged up by this time or something.

But this "friend" thing is kinda silly, don't you think? Not only does it not really prove itself out, but why in tarnation would Lucas (or anyone else) create an "all powerful Force" and a "religion" for a story in which only "buddies" could sense each other? Is this like the difference between wireless standards (http://www.linksys.com/products/wirelessstandards.asp) for computers, except that when Maul and I sit down for a brewski, only then can we "sense" each other? I really don't get it. But this wouldn't be the first time that something in this saga doesn't make too much sense if a person has the inclination (and bravery) to sit down and think about it. But then again, I suppose we should all just "sit back and enjoy it!" :)

JediTricks
09-28-2003, 10:26 PM
I respectfully disagree with your assessment. :) In any one of those instances where you suggest that someone isn't "felt," you don't know that. You're only assuming as such because they haven't spoken the words, "I sense something" slightly before being attacked or what have you. No, I'm going on their shown reactions to these situations, their dialogue and lack thereof (as you mentioned), and even what it says in the scripts. Qui-Gon is totally surprised by Maul on that speederbike in the desert, Anakin complains he's tired and QGJ turns to respond and sees Maul bearing down on them, then even after the battle Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan aren't sure the creature that attacked them was a Sith or not.

Here's another example, Luke doesn't sense Yoda in any way at all as being a Force-user, even when Obi-Wan's spirit is around. Or how about when Senator Palpatine is standing face to face with all of the Jedi council at Qui-Gon's funeral. Or when Chancellor Palpatine has Mace and Yoda in his office.


suffice it to say that when Obi and Qui are "surprised" by Maul behind the door, it doesn't mean that they didn't sense him at all. In all likelihood, they did sense him somewhere.You mean it happened "offscreen"? I thought you didn't believe in such things being used in this sort of storytelling. In any case, we're always shown onscreen before and after when one Force-user is sensing another, so why are my above examples exempt from that?


In all likelihood, they did sense him somewhere. But, as you point out also, this isn't a very specific "locator" either. Vader sensed Old Ben, but couldn't really place him on the ship to any degree. Actually, that doesn't entirely fit what we're shown onscreen in this scene. Eventually, Vader sits waiting for Obi-Wan at exactly the right hallway even though there are half a dozen entrances to the hangar, and it seems as if Ben is drawn to that spot as well.


I don't need to explain "why" Lucas would do that, there's no reason why this shouldn't be the case except you want it to be - it's no MORE or LESS logical to have it this way than any other way. There's no reason Force-users should be able to sense other unknown Force-users, if they could, then wouldn't they have Palpatine in their custody before he becomes Chancellor?

stillakid
09-29-2003, 02:07 PM
No, I'm going on their shown reactions to these situations, their dialogue and lack thereof (as you mentioned), and even what it says in the scripts. Qui-Gon is totally surprised by Maul on that speederbike in the desert, Anakin complains he's tired and QGJ turns to respond and sees Maul bearing down on them, then even after the battle Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan aren't sure the creature that attacked them was a Sith or not.
Okay, so explain this to me. Exactly what constitutes "must know him" then? What does that mean? What are the parameters if this hypothesis is true? Vader never "met" Luke, but somehow could "sense" him far before they ever got together? Are you suggesting that just "knowing" about someone is enough? Sure sounds like it. In that case, why don't the Jedi just whip out some old High School yearbooks and "find" all the Force Users across the Galaxy? You did say it was a "locator" so this seems reasonable then. Right?

But again, your example above doesn't mean that Qui didn't "sense" Maul. He just didn't have a clue how close he was. At the very beginning of that film, Obi Wan states he senses something distant and elusive. Sure, that's open to interpretation, but I gotta think we are meant to believe he was referring to either Palpatine or Maul. (I vote Maul for a variety of reasons, which are pure speculation on my part, but are really the only way for some of this to make any sense at all.)


Here's another example, Luke doesn't sense Yoda in any way at all as being a Force-user, even when Obi-Wan's spirit is around. Or how about when Senator Palpatine is standing face to face with all of the Jedi council at Qui-Gon's funeral. Or when Chancellor Palpatine has Mace and Yoda in his office.
The Luke thing we can chalk up to his lack of training. He wasn't focused at all and hadn't yet learned to listen to his Midichlorians. :D This was the whole point of that sequence. We see Luke get half trained, but he is too rash and inexperienced to handle the tools that have been given him. That is why, in ROTJ, we see a much calmer Luke. He took his beating and learned a very valuable lesson...which is exactly why Yoda told him that he had already learned everything that he needed. School of hard knocks. It's this understanding which makes Luke's "Noooooo!" and subsequent attack on Vader at the climax so poignant. And it all goes back to the beginning, when we see Luke grow from a naive ambitious farmboy into a dangerously armed and still naive Jedi-wannabe.

As far as the Palpatine scenario goes, my personal unsubstantiated theory is that he isn't a Force user at all. One would assume that at a rash young age, Palpatine began concocting this nefarious plan for galactic takeover. Maybe he found an ancient Sith manual or something. Who knows, but what's important is that he figured out pretty quickly that whenever someone uses the Force, particularly for "bad," it sends ripples across the fabric of the "energy field" that surrounds and connects all living things. Were he to train as a Sith, he would be discovered and his plans would be dashed. So instead, he trains some "muscle," Darth Maul leaving him time to work on his political manipulations. This assertion can easily be backed up just by looking at the first two films. Not once has Palpatine had to use the Force or anything to get his way. In fact, as I've said before, most of his plans blow up in his face necessitating a quick Plan B, which somehow, always very coincidentally winds up accomplishing what he wanted in the first place. Regardless, because he doesn't really need to utilize the powers of the Force to get what he's after, it stands to reason that no one would ever "sense" him.



You mean it happened "offscreen"? I thought you didn't believe in such things being used in this sort of storytelling. In any case, we're always shown onscreen before and after when one Force-user is sensing another, so why are my above examples exempt from that?
No...I'm not exactly sure how you finagled that into being an "offscreen" occurance. What I'm saying is that just because a character doesn't say point blank that he "senses" another Force user EVERYTIME he senses one, it doesn't mean that he doesn't. How annoying would that get, every frickin' 5 minutes one of the Jedi getting that look on his face..."Oh, there's another one....Oh...another one.....Oh....there it is again....Oh...." I think you get the idea. This has NOTHING to do with things happening "offscreen."

As to part two of your statement, it's half true. "We're always shown onscreen before and after when one Force-user is sensing another," when it's pertinent to the story. Like I said above, not only do the rules of engagement make no sense whatsoever (when you say that Jedi guys have to "know" each other before they can sense each other), but this isn't a locating device, nor is it necessarily full-proof and this sensing ability clearly relies on the aptitude of the Force user.


Actually, that doesn't entirely fit what we're shown onscreen in this scene. Eventually, Vader sits waiting for Obi-Wan at exactly the right hallway even though there are half a dozen entrances to the hangar, and it seems as if Ben is drawn to that spot as well.
What can I say? Two experienced Force users? If I had to guess, I'd say that Ben was just trying to get back to the ship. We can tell that he "senses" Vader "close by." If anybody "gets lucky," it's Vader who happens to pick the right entrance. Maybe he did get a bead on Ben, but this certainly doesn't prove that it happened just because the two guys used to chase skirts together.



I don't need to explain "why" Lucas would do that, there's no reason why this shouldn't be the case except you want it to be - it's no MORE or LESS logical to have it this way than any other way. There's no reason Force-users should be able to sense other unknown Force-users, if they could, then wouldn't they have Palpatine in their custody before he becomes Chancellor?
See above. Because if my theory isn't correct (about Palpatine not using the Force), then I'd be even more interested in hearing the rules of just how well these guys need to know each other before they can sense one another. Clearly they don't have to swap spit. We also know that Vader can "sense" Luke before he ever meets him. So the answer is somewhere in between if your theory is to hold up.

Turambar
09-29-2003, 08:51 PM
Actually, I thought both Qui-gon and obi-wan sensed maul's presence on tatooine. Didn't Qui-Gon at one point warn Obi-Wan about a disturbance that Obi felt, also? I'll have to check on that unless someone else can.

JediTricks
09-29-2003, 11:19 PM
Actually, I thought both Qui-gon and obi-wan sensed maul's presence on tatooine. Didn't Qui-Gon at one point warn Obi-Wan about a disturbance that Obi felt, also? I'll have to check on that unless someone else can.The dialogue is vague about this, they could have meant Anakin or Sidious' plan or just a general discomfort. Remember that Maul isn't even on the planet yet when they say this:

QUI-GON: Don't let them send any transmissions. Be wary...I sense a disturbance in the Force.

OBI-WAN: I feel it also, Master. Whereas when Maul finally makes his move, here's what the script says:

EXT. TATOOINE - DESERT - NABOO SPACECRAFT - DAY
QUI-GON and ANAKIN run toward the Naboo spacecraft. ANAKIN is having a hard time keeping up.

ANAKIN: Master Qui-Gon, sir, wait!

QUI-GON turns to answer and sees a DARK-CLOAKED FIGURE bearing down on a speeder bike.

QUI-GON: Anakin, drop!
Vader never "met" Luke, but somehow could "sense" him far before they ever got together?Actually, if you are referring to Vader's "the Force is strong with this one" line in the Death Star trench, it once again supports my theory because Vader has been chasing Luke for a while, yet only comments about the Force being strong once Obi-Wan's spirit visits Luke.

If you're referring to the opening of ESB, Vader doesn't claim he senses Luke on Hoth, he merely makes the comment that the Rebels are there and Luke is with them - it's not clear on what Vader bases his assumption. And besides, Vader does have a direct connection to Luke, he's his father - once he knows who he's looking for, he could search deep within and start finding that connection, the Emperor comments about feelings being a key to this.


But again, your example above doesn't mean that Qui didn't "sense" Maul. He just didn't have a clue how close he was. At the very beginning of that film, Obi Wan states he senses something distant and elusive. Sure, that's open to interpretation, but I gotta think we are meant to believe he was referring to either Palpatine or Maul.See above response to Turambar. Also, whether you gotta think we are meant to believe it's Palpatine or Maul doesn't mean that's how it was or that I have to think that. In fact, I don't think that, I think they're talking about the feeling of the whole situation going south, or maybe they meant Anakin and his role in the future of the Force, but that's neither here nor there because it's not stated in the film and thus has no application to this discussion one way or the other.


What I'm saying is that just because a character doesn't say point blank that he "senses" another Force user EVERYTIME he senses one, it doesn't mean that he doesn't.True, but it also doesn't mean that he DOES sense them. "If we don't see them do _____, it must mean they can do ____" has no basis in onscreen fact, only supposition; you may not agree with my claim, but my claim is supported by onscreen occurances whereas yours is supported only by something NOT being shown.

As to part two of your statement, it's half true. "We're always shown onscreen before and after when one Force-user is sensing another," when it's pertinent to the story. Again, you cannot make your point by assuming the lack of pertinence to items not-shown proves their existance. If you are assuming the characters are sensing others and we're just not seeing it, that's definitely an "offscreen" element specifically because we're NOT seeing it.

I'm not writing the rules, only interpreting what I've seen onscreen. The Force was meant to be vague originally, you don't define things as "mystical" only to spell out every limitation they can have... even the stupid Midichlorians weren't totally spelled out for us, we're given a new plot device that attempts to "science-up" the Force, but the CPD themselves are not defined very well and abandoned by future onscreen episodes.

2-1B
09-30-2003, 01:24 AM
Yes, I see. You're tossing Midi's in with the Lightsabers and the other cool sci-fi stuff.

Yes . . . but I'm also tossing them in with ghosts and other such nonsense. Ghostly visitations. Telepathy. The scientific "fact" in that universe that people can even levitate weapons . . .


But this is a story. But a good story has primary heroic characters whom we can empathize with. Old Ben wasn't one of the main hero's in the OT. He was just a vehicle to get Luke involved in the large scope of things. So the fictional element of this saga turns him into a ghost. What for? Well, I'll tell you. :)

Had Obi not been in the story and brought Luke into the story, then Luke would have had to find his own way off the planet and stumble around until he managed to find the Rebellion. But this wouldn't have introduced him to The Force...the very thing that allows him to step into the dragon's lair at the end and slay the foe (in ROTJ). So, Obi is A) the vehicle to get him off planet, and B) Luke's introduction to The Force (the tool he uses to "win").

Next, Obi has to die, because Luke has to face the dragon alone in order to follow the well worn mythical traditions that Lucas was emulating. Why? Because it works. Had Obi lived, Luke would have had a crutch in his master and wouldn't have had the pressure of being the last hope.

Okay, so now we have the hero alone but in desperate need of more training about this Force thing. What to do? Well, he could have gone back to Obi Wan's little hut and found some kind of goofy manual: "The Force for Dummies" or something. But that's dumb and boring (to watch sit around and read a book), so Lucas didn't do it that way thank god. It was far more interesting to have that additional Force information come out of somebody's mouth. Because it's sci-fi, a funny little alien pops out of the woodwork. But how would Luke even learn about this? Again, Luke could have gone back to Tatooine and dug some scrap of paper up with Yoda's address on it. But that's dumb and it would have ruined the flow of the story to just have Luke leave where he was to go do this one thing. So, bam, we have a dead Jedi with the power of appearing whenever he needs to to impart information, ala the birds in Pinnochio. Yeah, I suppose we don't have ghosts in this world, but it doesn't matter. We also don't have aliens and spaceships and speederbikes. The point of a well-written story isn't to have the audience empathize with the production design or the elements which get the characters from one sequence to the next. It's to create main heroic characters who have enough ambition to overcome their flaws which enable them to succeed despite the greatest of odds. In other words, ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances. Luke was ordinary, before being infused with Midis. He was someone we could empathize with, even though his specific "story" was something far removed from our reality.

Very good points. :)
However, I still disagree with the ghost part because I don't see (for the sake of argument) how "we" should be able to empathize with someone who has a ghost on his side. Not possible in this world, yet we're supposed to empathize with a human who has THIS advantage? The above quote nicely details ESB but what about ANH's trench run? Luke *thought* he lost his mentor . . . and instead of overcoming his obstacles on his own, he has a little birdie whispering in his ear telling him to let go. Oh, and then there's "run Luke, run."
Doesn't seem like Obi-Wan's death was all that important for Luke to face the dragon alone. Hell, the whole point of his own death (according to Ben himself) was to become MORE powerful. I'll even venture that had Obi-Wan survied that duel with Vader, the rebellion might have been crushed right there at Yavin because Luke would have kept his targeting computer on and had the same statistical chance of missing as that other guy did.

LOL, it's funny that Obi-Wan "can not interfere" in ESB with a fight against Vader but when Luke goes up against Vader's forces in the previous film, Obi-Wan is right there in spirit form to interfere.

stillakid
09-30-2003, 12:43 PM
First, thanks. :)

Anyhow...


Very good points. :)
However, I still disagree with the ghost part because I don't see (for the sake of argument) how "we" should be able to empathize with someone who has a ghost on his side. Not possible in this world, yet we're supposed to empathize with a human who has THIS advantage?
No (as far as we know), we don't have ghosts helping us out with advice when we need it. But Obi Wan represents a mentor that we could have in this world. He's just a character dishing out help whenever the plot needs it. We aren't supposed to look so literally at Luke and say, "well, gee, he's got a floating car, two artificially intelligent robots, an endless supply of blue juice, some pretty nifty binoculars, a plane that can go into space and shoot things, a laser sword, and a mentor who is a see-through ghost. How could I ever relate to him?" All that stuff is external to who Luke is and what point-of-view he is representing. What an author attempts to do is write a character with internal traits that we can relate to. Things like honesty, integrity, bravery, ambition. Not only that, but the flaws as well, such as fear or arrogance or selfishness. Those are the things I refer to when I suggest that we "empathize" with characters. If it were done your way, we could never relate to any onscreen character, no matter the subject matter. In most cases, these are ordinary people caught up in extraordinary circumstances. While skill levels and the kinds of toys the heroes have to play with may vary from tale to tale (ie, James Bond or Aladdin), the basics of what makes the heroes uniquely human, and thus relatable, doesn't. (In a well-written story, that is). A movie about ordinary people in very ordinary circumstances doesn't stand much of a chance when audiences aren't interested in seeing their own hum-drum lives played out on a big screen. Ironically, they do want to have some connection to the hero, in a way that allows them to think that what they are doing on screen isn't beyond the scope of what is possible (in terms of personal achievement), but they usually prefer to see that struggle play out in some kind of extraordinary environment or circumstance which isn't so outlandish as to dilute the human essence of the characters.


The above quote nicely details ESB but what about ANH's trench run? Luke *thought* he lost his mentor . . . and instead of overcoming his obstacles on his own, he has a little birdie whispering in his ear telling him to let go. Oh, and then there's "run Luke, run."
Doesn't seem like Obi-Wan's death was all that important for Luke to face the dragon alone. Hell, the whole point of his own death (according to Ben himself) was to become MORE powerful. I'll even venture that had Obi-Wan survied that duel with Vader, the rebellion might have been crushed right there at Yavin because Luke would have kept his targeting computer on and had the same statistical chance of missing as that other guy did.

LOL, it's funny that Obi-Wan "can not interfere" in ESB with a fight against Vader but when Luke goes up against Vader's forces in the previous film, Obi-Wan is right there in spirit form to interfere.

Again, that "little voice" inside Luke's head, whether it remain just a disembodied voice or the filmmaker chooses to show it's source (an apparition), is just a "source" of advice or help or what have you. Just as easily, those instances could have been done filmically through flashbacks. Luke suddenly "remembers" the time when Obi Wan says "Let go," then he does. But for a variety of reasons, and because the genre allows it, it was just as convenient and acceptable to make it a ghost in the present time.

What's more, in a very tangible sense, Luke has no help at all once Old Ben dies. While the film doesn't expressly say it, between the lines we can safely assume that Ben's "more powerful" dialogue suggests that he can help Luke more as a spirit entity than being around in flesh and blood. No, he never really "helps" Luke out more than being that little voice in his ear, but again, that's the human-esque element of the story. Lucas could have very easily killed off Obi Wan and had him become "one with the Force." In that privileged place, Obi could have been granted superpowers to move stuff around, crash spaceships, blow stuff up, grab Luke's lightsaber for him when he needed it. But that's not what happened, and thankfully so. Obi Wan's contribution to Luke's training was subtle, but ultimately Luke benefitted because he didn't have anyone to lean on and cry to when things got hard. In ANH, he was a whiny naive farmboy. In ESB, he got his butt kicked by life and had to grow up fast.

stillakid
09-30-2003, 01:32 PM
The dialogue is vague about this, they could have meant Anakin or Sidious' plan or just a general discomfort.
Like constipation? ;)

But true, this particular script is excrutiatingly bad about details like this. Not to say that I wish they would walk out on screen and explain every word, but wherein the subtleties in films like the OT were fairly easy to discern, TPM just tosses them out all willy-nilly in an attempt to make it seem like there is a lot more going on under the surface than there really is. To that end, a whole lot of the discussion which revolves around elements of the Prequels has to rely on pure speculation and conjecture because that's really all we have to work with.


Remember that Maul isn't even on the planet yet when they say this:
Whereas when Maul finally makes his move, here's what the script says:
Actually, if you are referring to Vader's "the Force is strong with this one" line in the Death Star trench, it once again supports my theory because Vader has been chasing Luke for a while, yet only comments about the Force being strong once Obi-Wan's spirit visits Luke.
Sure it might support what you're saying, but just as easily, Luke wasn't really using the Force either until that little voice inside his head reminded him to. Once Luke taps into that mystical energy field, it puts out "tremors in the Force" (Vader's words) which Vader easily picks up. And it ABSOLUTELY wasn't because he had a clue who was flying that X-Wing. It could have been Richard Nixon. All that happened was that whoever was flying it suddenly started tapping into the Force and that's what Vader sensed. I still don't see how it could be because he "knew" the guy in front of him. Makes no sense at all.


If you're referring to the opening of ESB, Vader doesn't claim he senses Luke on Hoth, he merely makes the comment that the Rebels are there and Luke is with them - it's not clear on what Vader bases his assumption.
True, it is speculation because the script doesn't expressly say that he senses Luke. And for the record, I've always also felt that Vader wasn't "sensing" him there. It was a guess on his part using deduction and reasoning. So why doesn't he sense him? This moment does damage to both our theories actually. You claim that Vader should ALWAYS sense Luke because they are family and Vader "knows" Luke. Not only that, you claimed (from ANH) that the Force is a locator (because Vader and Obi ended up in the same hallway). So given that assertion, what's the pretense with the Probe Droids? This "knowing the guy" theory just doesn't work at all.

But this particular situation hurts my theory as well...to a point. I say that when a "Force user" taps into the energy field, he creates ripples in it that other Force users sense. One could argue that it is reasonable to assume that offscreen (before the movie starts) Luke must have been using the Force to practice, which would have sent tremors out and thus alerted Vader. That's not to say that didn't happen, because I claim that it is not a locating device like you do. So Vader probably did sense him, but didn't know where to look specifically. Thus the probe droids. So when they get the pictures from Hoth, Vader uses his reasoning powers to guess that Luke is probably with the Rebels there. It is only after that point in the script that Luke gets hung up by the Wampa and only then, for the first time in the film, does he use the Force. No, we don't cut back to Vader in his chamber to see him suddenly "sense" Luke all of the sudden, but using this line of reasoning, it is likely that it happened "offscreen." Hmm, so I guess it doesn't hurt my theory at all.


And besides, Vader does have a direct connection to Luke, he's his father - once he knows who he's looking for, he could search deep within and start finding that connection, the Emperor comments about feelings being a key to this.
Key to what? The only reference I remember that sounds like this was in ROTJ when Palpatine claims that he didn't sense Luke when Vader does. :confused:



See above response to Turambar. Also, whether you gotta think we are meant to believe it's Palpatine or Maul doesn't mean that's how it was or that I have to think that. In fact, I don't think that, I think they're talking about the feeling of the whole situation going south, or maybe they meant Anakin and his role in the future of the Force, but that's neither here nor there because it's not stated in the film and thus has no application to this discussion one way or the other.
Of course it has application to the discussion, at least when needing examples of when Jedi "feel" something. But again, yeah, there is no specific information about what he was referring to so it's all conjecture. However, I find it highly highly highly unlikely that he was talking about Anakin or "the situation." While Anakin might send out some tremors in the Force on occasion, a "situation" doesn't. And given Lucas's heavy-handed shove it down our throats writing/directing style for the new films (made for kids remember), it if far more likely that he was simply making a "subtle" reference to either Maul or Palpatine.


True, but it also doesn't mean that he DOES sense them. "If we don't see them do _____, it must mean they can do ____" has no basis in onscreen fact, only supposition; you may not agree with my claim, but my claim is supported by onscreen occurances whereas yours is supported only by something NOT being shown.
Again, you cannot make your point by assuming the lack of pertinence to items not-shown proves their existance. If you are assuming the characters are sensing others and we're just not seeing it, that's definitely an "offscreen" element specifically because we're NOT seeing it.
:) We're splitting hairs, but you know as well as I that plenty happens "offscreen" that is necessary to keep any plot moving. For instance, did we see Han flip the switch to "go" after being jetisoned with the garbage in ESB? No. Does it mean it didn't happen? No, of course it did. He hit the gas like he always did. But wisely, the director chose to show that moment in a wide shot which would also reveal Slave I following the Falcon. Why? Because that angle of the moment had more pertinence to the story than us watching Han turn the key and hit the accelerator.

So the same exact logic applies to Jedi "feeling" others and whether the audience knows about it or not. When it is necessary to the story, the writer puts in a reference so that it can be filmed and edited in. When it isn't important, there's no point.

Now, I can hear it now, "but this is the argument we use about Midichlorians in the OT, Stillakid!" The claim is that all that "explaining" happened offscreen on Dagobah. Okay, but Luke's primary mission, the whole reason for going to Dagobah, was to learn about the Force and become a Jedi. I would think that such a fundamental element of learning how this human/Force interaction actually works would be high on the curriculum list. Ah, but that other argument, "but it's already been mentioned in the Prequels, why bring it up again and bore the audience?" Well, aside from Yoda's very eloquent soliloquey about the Force (thank you Mr. Kasdan), just about everything the little gnome says is nothing but a rehash of everything we've already heard from Old Ben. Yoda even repeats himself several times. So should Yoda not have said anything at all just because Ben already went through those chapters with Luke?


I'm not writing the rules, only interpreting what I've seen onscreen.
But you are writing the rules. There isn't anything in the films that ever suggests that Force users need to know each other before they can sense one another. I know that you're interpreting it that way, but as I peruse through the examples, I just don't see the theory holding up very well. :( Look, I'd like to believe it. Why? Because my own theory relies heavily on the idea that Palpatine is not a Force user. Despite this, I know deep-down that Lucas probably thinks he is, which would annihilate my idea (and the rest of his continuity as well). Fact is, I don't think he put one shred of thought into any of it and only when we dig deep into all the ramifications do we shed light on a lot of incongruities. But despite that, I just can't see him pulling a stunt like you're suggesting wherein the Force users have to "know" each other. Not only is it a stupid plot idea (I mean, what's the point?), but it isn't holding up either.



The Force was meant to be vague originally, you don't define things as "mystical" only to spell out every limitation they can have... even the stupid Midichlorians weren't totally spelled out for us, we're given a new plot device that attempts to "science-up" the Force, but the CPD themselves are not defined very well and abandoned by future onscreen episodes.
I think that Yoda's speech in ESB spelled the Force out perfectly. With his explanation, we really knew everything we needed to know about it. There were no questions in my mind concerning what it was, how it worked, or who could use it. But with the Midichlorians jammed into the mix, questions abound. What was (I guess) supposed to make this a simplier concept (for kids, most likely), wound up complicating things unnecessarily to the point where it will never really make any sense anymore (until he cuts them from TPM, or he vandalizes the OT with their mention).

And, I'm sorry, but I don't know what "CPD" is referring to.

Rogue II
09-30-2003, 02:30 PM
Here is how I precieved Jedi and Sith being able to sense each other. Feel free to shoot holes in my theory, I won't take offence ;). The way I pictured it is similar to smell. There are a lot of different "smells", and unless you know who it is, all you know is that something stinks(if you ever have been in a market in a 3rd world country, you know exactly what I mean). In other words, they can sense other force users, but unless they know who that person is, they cannot properly identify them. Of course, it seems that the Sith are a little harder for the Jedi to detect. Yoda mentions that it is difficult to see the dark side.

To support my theory, in ANH, Vader doesn't know who Luke is during the battle, but he can detect the force (or midichlorian stink ;)) that Luke is emmiting. After the battle, Vader learns that that pilot was Luke and from that point forward, he can recognize Luke's presence.

Likewise, on the Death Star, Vader had not sensed the a certain "stink" since the last time he was with Kenobi.

In the prequels, this also applies, the Jedi seem to detect something, but really don't know what it is. Why? Well, besides the fact that they are hard to see, the Sith haven't been around for 1000 years so.

2-1B
09-30-2003, 02:32 PM
CPD = contrived plot device

Yoda's ESB actually says very little about The Force . . . just that it's an energy field that surrounds us and binds us (just like Ben said). It says nothing about where it really comes from, only that it connects every living thing. The Force has to come from SOMEWHERE - it may seem like magic but there has to be a reason for it's existence. Like it or not, it's the midichlorians. Personally I don't think they should have even bothered putting them into the saga yet I don't think they ruin anything.

I think WAYYYYYYYY too much importance is being placed on the midichlorians for the sake of showing why they don't belong. We NEVER see them discussed in a "curriculum" setting. :rolleyes: Anakin is only told about them because he asked. When Qui-Gon gave lil Ani his first pep talk in using the Force, he made no mention of the midis.
Furthermore, as we see Ani when he gets older, there's NO mention of them anywhere. Obi-Wan gives him the same vague and mystical advice that old Ben and Yoda seem to be fond of.

So no, I don't believe that it should have been "at the top of Yoda's list."

TheDarthVader
09-30-2003, 04:03 PM
Well put, Caesar. I agree with everything you have posted so far. I believe you have done a wonderful job explaining some of these "midichlorian" ideas. :) :) :D

stillakid
09-30-2003, 05:08 PM
CPD = contrived plot device

Yoda's ESB actually says very little about The Force . . . just that it's an energy field that surrounds us and binds us (just like Ben said). It says nothing about where it really comes from, only that it connects every living thing. The Force has to come from SOMEWHERE - it may seem like magic but there has to be a reason for it's existence.
Whoa! You're talking about two different things here. One is what it is. The other is where it comes from. Yet the answers to both of those issues don't involve Midichlorians at all, at least as far as the definitions I've seen about them state.

What it is is an "energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, binds the galaxy together." The answer to "what" is that it is EVERYTHING. The characters and all living things in that galaxy are made up of the same energy that permeates the galaxy. The "Force" is the very energy that is the galaxy! Just like our current String Theory, the tiniest elements of creation are nothing more than strings of energy. These strings of energy are the building blocks of everything there is. So by default, we are all connected via this "fabric" of energy that "surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds us together."

Where the Force comes from is unanswerable because it is EVERYTHING there is. Now we're getting into God-talk and other aspects of creation which are all just pure speculation. But this particular issue has no bearing on the topic at hand. The "reason for it's existence," as you put it, is immaterial. It just is and, for the time being anyway, it's source isn't important.

Midichlorian's apparently fit into this whole puzzle as the link which allows a sentient being to "tap into" this energy field. Just like a piece of computer hardware needs a driver to make it work with the operating system, a person couldn't "connect with" this energy field without the aid of these other symbiotic lifeforms. How they got such revered status as keepers of the doorway to the Force, who knows? But what is important is without them (or a certain quantity of them), a living being could never use the Force to levitate fruit in order to get into a girls panties. He'd have to do it the old fashioned way...with alcohol. :cool:



I think WAYYYYYYYY too much importance is being placed on the midichlorians for the sake of showing why they don't belong. We NEVER see them discussed in a "curriculum" setting. :rolleyes:
Right, and why not? These things are the one and only link between a sentient being and this Force thing! It's unconscionable that any teacher would exclude this lesson from a student. No? I mean, geez, it'd be like asking me to build a house without telling me about the existence of a hammer and nails. Or like I said before, like asking me to cross a river blindfolded without telling me about the bridge downstream.


Anakin is only told about them because he asked. When Qui-Gon gave lil Ani his first pep talk in using the Force, he made no mention of the midis.
Furthermore, as we see Ani when he gets older, there's NO mention of them anywhere. Obi-Wan gives him the same vague and mystical advice that old Ben and Yoda seem to be fond of.

So no, I don't believe that it should have been "at the top of Yoda's list."
Yeah, exactly, there is NO mention of them after TPM and why not? Why does Anakin have to ask about them before his teacher will say anything about them? Why shouldn't this "insignificant" lesson be "at the top of Yoda's list"? For cryin' out loud, these things are the KEY to using the Force and everybody is so quick to dismiss them as inconsequential...and why? Well, the reason so far has been "because the rest of the story treats them as insignificant, therefore they must be insignificant." Right? You're using the lack of mention in the rest of the saga as justification for them not being mentioned again. Your defining a term with itself. I'm sure that somehow, somebody will disagree, but I'm really curious as to how exactly.

:)

stillakid
09-30-2003, 05:20 PM
To support my theory, in ANH, Vader doesn't know who Luke is during the battle, but he can detect the force (or midichlorian stink ;)) that Luke is emmiting. After the battle, Vader learns that that pilot was Luke and from that point forward, he can recognize Luke's presence.

Then why couldn't Vader find Luke on Hoth?

Rogue II
09-30-2003, 05:39 PM
I don't think they can really pinpoint each other but can only get a vague idea of where the other is. Vader may have had an idea of where Luke was since he jumped on Hoth as soon as the crew mentioned a settlement there.

Turambar
09-30-2003, 09:03 PM
OK, I think I've finally come up with a theory of how the force and midis fit together that answers my questions:

We can assume that midis and jedi power are common knowledge throughout the galaxy. So common that midi counters are put aboard starships, so their number must correlate with jedi power. Also, although, nobody denies or agrees with Qui-Gon's claims about midis, all jedi have a count on record, so they must agree that jedi power can be accurately measured through midi counts.

This is where QG's beliefs take a wrong turn, however. His idea of midis and the force must be backwards. Midis aren't responsible for the force, but, in fact, the force is responsible for midis. Perhaps just having the ability to use the force causes midis to multiply in people. They may or may not be symbiotic, but they certainly are nourished by force-sensitive individuals. Working from this angle answers a lot of the questions I had posed about them.
This would explain why someone couldn't just grow midis in a lab and inject them into people to enhance their force powers. They couldnt be replicated without nourishment from the force, and even if this were accomplished, the extras would die in a person who hadn't the ability to use the force in the first place.

What about the miraculous conception? Well, it's vague whether or not this is actually written in a prophecy that a child will be born of a virgin birth and bring balance to the force, or if a child with a lot of jedi power will be born and bring balance to the force. So, Ani might have had a father and Shmi just worked that "certain point of view" line about there being no father, or the "divine" influence of the force worked through the midis or without them to concieve the child. I kind of thought GL was trying to parallel the bible in that, so being conceived by a divine power is much more believable in a fantasy than being conceived by little bacteria. But, once again, it is the force working through the midis, not the midis on their own.

What about heredity? The OT kind of makes it clear that being a jedi is hereditary. How? Who cares. We didn't need to know then because it didn't matter, so we don't need to know now. All that we know is the ability to use the force is somehow passed on. The offspring with the ability to use the force is able to support more midis than average people. It is unclear as to whether they are symbiotic or parasitic, but they are there.

What about the parents of jedi? This always bothered me since we find out in AOTC that jedi aren't allowed to have mates even though the ability is hereditary (from OT). I think there have been good ideas thrown out about this. QG statements imply that force senstive kids are detected when they cause tremors. "the force is unusually strong in him" before the midi count led him to test Ani for jedi power in the accustomed way of a midi count. So if force sensitive people were to never cause a tremor that jedi could locate, OR if they were too old to train when they finally were detected, they would left alone. The ability could then be passed on to the offspring, and if they caused a tremor, then the jedi would come and test them. If not the cycle would continue on to the next generation. Also, the one-night-stand with a jedi theory could contribute to new jedi while being too far from the core could explain why some aren't detected.

I think that wraps up the problems I had with midis. It comes down to what came first the force or the midis. QG seems to think the midis, but common sense points the other way.
This would also explain their absence from the rest of the movies. Midis just weren't that important. If they were responsible for a jedi being able to use the force, then it would be odd that something so important was never mentioned in the OT. But midis are just a consequence of having the ability, so whether or not yoda or ben ever mention it to luke wouldn't matter. Midis were a measure of a jedi's potential, but NOT the link to using the force as QG believed.
It would be nice to see closure on the issue. Maybe have QG's ghost come back and say he was wrong, but I don't care at this point. This is the version that makes the most sense to me, so I'm sticking with it.
Let me know if there are large holes in my theory, though.

JediTricks
10-01-2003, 09:04 PM
Sure it might support what you're saying, but just as easily, Luke wasn't really using the Force either until that little voice inside his head reminded him to. Once Luke taps into that mystical energy field, it puts out "tremors in the Force" (Vader's words) which Vader easily picks up. And it ABSOLUTELY wasn't because he had a clue who was flying that X-Wing. It could have been Richard Nixon. All that happened was that whoever was flying it suddenly started tapping into the Force and that's what Vader sensed. You're forgetting that Luke had already started tapping into the Force on the Falcon during his training with the remote, Ben even says so.



So why doesn't he sense him? This moment does damage to both our theories actually. You claim that Vader should ALWAYS sense Luke because they are family and Vader "knows" Luke. Not only that, you claimed (from ANH) that the Force is a locator (because Vader and Obi ended up in the same hallway). So given that assertion, what's the pretense with the Probe Droids? I didn't say it was a locator that worked from great distances, you are applying that yourself. Vader doesn't sense Obi-Wan on the Death Star until he's inside the station, and it doesn't seem like Ben senses Vader's presence there until after they've been captured.




Key to what? The only reference I remember that sounds like this was in ROTJ when Palpatine claims that he didn't sense Luke when Vader does. :confused: A possible key to the theory I've been subscribing to:

VADER: A small Rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor.

EMPEROR: Yes, I know.

VADER: My son is with them.

EMPEROR: Are you sure?

VADER: I have felt him, my Master.

EMPEROR: Strange, that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader.

While Anakin might send out some tremors in the Force on occasion, a "situation" doesn't. How do you know? There's no stated rule about that which I know of. The Force can show users the past, the future, other places, other possibilities, even the sensation of evil nearby, maybe any one of those could send out "tremors in the Force", it seems like they definitely could.


For instance, did we see Han flip the switch to "go" after being jetisoned with the garbage in ESB? No. Does it mean it didn't happen? No, of course it did. He hit the gas like he always did. But wisely, the director chose to show that moment in a wide shot which would also reveal Slave I following the Falcon. Why? Because that angle of the moment had more pertinence to the story than us watching Han turn the key and hit the accelerator.That is a poor example in this discussion, there we are given a clear and specific view of something happening whereas here we are talking about vagueries and invisible intangible occurances.


But you are writing the rules. There isn't anything in the films that ever suggests that Force users need to know each other before they can sense one another. I know that you're interpreting it that way, but as I peruse through the examples, I just don't see the theory holding up very well.Yet your rebuffs have held little or no onscreen substance whereas mine are supported by onscreen actions.


And, I'm sorry, but I don't know what "CPD" is referring to.I posted this many moons ago: "Contrived Plot Device" (and I'm glad to see Caesar remembered. :D)

JediTricks
10-01-2003, 09:05 PM
HEY! I've got all the answers wrapped up in a neat little package!!! It just came to me! The midichlorians are only part of "the living force", the second Force that QGJ's and Dooku's unpopular Jedi sect believes in, yet the main group of Jedi - such as Yoda himself - does not. Boom! Solves all the issues and fits all the theories about midichlorians (including my own, which are the only ones that count to me ;)).

Turambar
10-01-2003, 10:08 PM
HEY! I've got all the answers wrapped up in a neat little package!!! It just came to me! The midichlorians are only part of "the living force", the second Force that QGJ's and Dooku's unpopular Jedi sect believes in, yet the main group of Jedi - such as Yoda himself - does not. Boom! Solves all the issues and fits all the theories about midichlorians (including my own, which are the only ones that count to me ;)).

I'll buy that.

stillakid
10-02-2003, 09:52 AM
HEY! I've got all the answers wrapped up in a neat little package!!! It just came to me! The midichlorians are only part of "the living force", the second Force that QGJ's and Dooku's unpopular Jedi sect believes in, yet the main group of Jedi - such as Yoda himself - does not. Boom! Solves all the issues and fits all the theories about midichlorians (including my own, which are the only ones that count to me ;)).
As this concept of the Living Force is never adequately explained, could you do it for me? Pardon my ignorance, it's been awhile since I've seen EpI so I don't recall the dialogue either which states that Yoda et al don't believe in the Living Force.




You're forgetting that Luke had already started tapping into the Force on the Falcon during his training with the remote, Ben even says so.No, I didn't forget. I was saying that during the trench run, Luke only starts to tap into the Force after being reminded by that little voice in his head. Christ, this is annoying having to spell everything out. I'll try to be crystal clear with my references in the future. :)



I didn't say it was a locator that worked from great distances, you are applying that yourself. Vader doesn't sense Obi-Wan on the Death Star until he's inside the station, and it doesn't seem like Ben senses Vader's presence there until after they've been captured..
You weren't "crystal clear" ;) . You never made the distinction that it wasn't good at more than a hundred paces. So, what are the parameters then? 50'? 100'? A kilometer? A lightyear? 10 lightyears?

I'll play along and say that it does work as a locator depending upon the strength of the "ripples" that the Force user is creating. Then depending upon the size of the "tremors" another Force user might be able to sort of hone in on the location. Case in point, Old Ben senses a "great disturbance in the Force" after Alderaan takes it up the wazoo. Talk about ripples across the fabric of this energy field. Not only did Ben not "know" this planet or most of the people there, he still "felt" it. But he couldn't pinpoint it's source.




How do you know? There's no stated rule about that which I know of. The Force can show users the past, the future, other places, other possibilities, even the sensation of evil nearby, maybe any one of those could send out "tremors in the Force", it seems like they definitely could.
We're about to jump into quantum mechanics and other aspects of theoretical physics. Continuing with the likely scenario that George (Kasdan) had a bit of String Theory in mind when figuring out what the Force could and could not do, part of that theory shows that maybe different timelines are possible, parallel universes if you will. So not only do the fundamental properties of this energy field actually create everything there is, but (for mathematical reasons that are way over my head) the possibility that a person who is tapping into this fabric of energy could "see" a potential "future" is possible.

Look, if nothing else, we've heard the argument from Prequel-Defenders that Midi's are just a way for George to give a scientific explanation to how the Force is used. If indeed that was George's purpose (and it probably was), then it stands to reason that he is basing the rest of the properties of the Force on some kind of psuedo-science as well. With that in mind, requiring the Force users to "know" one another doesn't seem to fall into that category of reasonable rational thought.

Besides, I have yet to hear the rules for just how well these guys need to "know" each other. Do they have to swap spit? Share a brew at the pub? Or is it just a glance at each other and they're marked as "buddies" for life? What is it that makes one guy "feel" the other?


That is a poor example in this discussion, there we are given a clear and specific view of something happening whereas here we are talking about vagueries and invisible intangible occurances.
No, it's an excellent example as I was showing that not all events which are actually occurring in the story need to be explicitly shown onscreen. There are mundane acts of "business" which are obvious, yet are trumped by other more pertinent "angles" on specific story moments. Whether we're talking about some kind of physical action (like going to the bathroom) or some kind of thought process of a character (maybe Luke was thinking "I wonder what kind of panties she's wearing?" after Leia plants one on him in ESB), only the elements necessary for the story at hand need be presented onscreen. The other stuff still happens, but only the best pieces of the story are shown to the audience.


Yet your rebuffs have held little or no onscreen substance whereas mine are supported by onscreen actions.
I believe that exact opposite. I've seen no evidence of people having to "know" each other whereas it is clear from what occurs onscreen that Force users (and what happens to them...ie the people of Alderaan) create ripples or "tremors" in the energy field which creates and surrounds all living things. I really truly don't see how it could be interpreted any other way. If nothing else, this is a very valuable lesson for me as I continue to write my own works. Don't assume anything because somebody out there will misunderstand if it isn't crystal clear. :)

Look, maybe you are right in your theory and George pulled one over on me, but I haven't yet seen an adequate proof of it yet. There is too much evidence to support what I'm saying and so very little to support the "buddy" theory, so it will probably take George himself to look at the two sides and pick one before I'm ready to lay down and accept defeat. :Pirate: This sounds like a question for "THE JEDI COUNCIL!" Do you want to ask or should I?

JediTricks
10-02-2003, 07:35 PM
The living Force isn't clearly explained in TPM, but what is said in the film:

OBI-WAN: Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future.

QUI-GON: But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan.It doesn't say Yoda and the rest don't beleive in it, but it seems odd that Yoda would teach only part of this Force knowledge to Obi-Wan and ignore the rest. On the official site, under the main indexes (not the EU pages) for Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan read these statements...
Qui-Gon Jinn:

A venerable if maverick Jedi Master, Qui-Gon Jinn is a student of the living Force. Unlike other Jedi Masters, who often lose themself in the meditation of the unifying Force, Qui-Gon Jinn lived for the moment, espousing a philosophy of "feel, don't think -- use your instincts." Were it not for Qui-Gon's unruly views, he would have undoubtedly been on the Jedi Council. Obi-Wan Kenobi:

...This was just one of many disagreements that Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn had during their time together. Jinn, a proponent of the living Force over the more serene unifying Force, had long been a maverick in the eyes of the Jedi Council. Obi-Wan implored his master not to go against the Council, but Qui-Gon always responded by saying that he must do as the will of the Force advises.

stillakid
10-03-2003, 12:45 AM
The living Force isn't clearly explained in TPM, but what is said in the film:
It doesn't say Yoda and the rest don't beleive in it, but it seems odd that Yoda would teach only part of this Force knowledge to Obi-Wan and ignore the rest. On the official site, under the main indexes (not the EU pages) for Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan read these statements...
Qui-Gon Jinn:
Obi-Wan Kenobi:


Thanks for that. So, it's all just semantics really. There really is just one Force, but two schools of thought on how to use it best. Ok, but what's this got to do with the price of tea in China? So Qui Gon likes to go with the flow while older Jedi apparently like to sit and think over things for awhile. I don't understand how this is relevant to, well, anything. Either way, the Force user "listens" to his screaming Midichlorians who are his only link to actually tapping into the energy field. What happens after that, this "living" vs. "unifying" thing, is all about how the person decides to act after tapping into the Force. It has NOTHING at all to do with the Force itself, based on that after-market explanation.

JediTricks
10-03-2003, 11:52 PM
I'm pretty sure the Living Force and "The Force" are supposed to be separate concepts, I can't find the link anymore but it said as much on SW.com.

stillakid
10-04-2003, 11:49 PM
Ok, so we ran that discussion to its conclusion.


Another thought occurred to me though. What about Leia?


Using all of your arguments, what's up with her? Why doesn't anyone "feel" her? According to TPM logic, Leia should be chock full o' delicious Midichlorians, yet she never "uses" the Force nor is she ever "felt" by anyone either. By your definition, Vader is "connected" to her yet he fails to "feel" her. Luke definitely "knows" her and even swaps spit with her, yet he too fails to "feel" her. Sure, he eventually has a telepathic moment with her, but whose to say that Jedi can't just fire random thoughts into people's heads anyway? They never "say" that they can't, so why should we assume that it's because she's laden with Midi's?

What's that you say? She never received training so she couldn't "use" the Force? Then what's the deal with lil' Ani? Neither did he, yet he was chock full o' Midichlorians and apparently knew how to inadvertantly use the Force enough to pilot a pod-racer.

And because of the Leia situation (ROTJ), we learn that this is all heritary somehow. Through the father? Ani had no father. Then through the mother then. So Shmi is chock full o' Midichlorians too! Qui Gon "knows" her yet he fails to "feel" her. What's that? She didn't have a lot of Midi's herself? Ok, so where did Ani's come from?

Oh yeah, that theory that Midi's are Force-exhaust. Right. Ok, so Ani apparently did use the Force...some. But he wasn't trained by the time we meet him in TPM and his use of the Force has been pretty limited, we are led to believe. Where did all these Midi's come from then? If he hasn't been using the Force much, then how did all these Midi's come to be?

Forget that for a sec. Better question is, why doesn't Qui Gon "feel" lil' Ani? The kid is chock full o' Midichlorians (somehow) and has a fleeting use of the Force, so why wouldn't Qui Gon "feel" him? Afterall, Vader apparently could "feel" Luke after Luke had more training than Ani did (at that point in the process). But beyond that, by your own definition, we know that Qui Gon didn't "feel" Ani because he never said so. He didn't say it...so it didn't happen. Right?

So now we've got a kid and his mother, both potentially brimming over with Midichlorians meaning that either they have been using the Force a lot (resulting in the overwhelming numbers, aka Force Exhaust) or they were both born with the Midichlorians which means that this is hereditary somehow through the mother. But that would mean that Padme would be the carrier for Luke and Leia, so perhaps it doesn't matter. The heredity could come from either parent. But unless there are at least 5000 virgin births in that galaxy, then these chaste Jedi must be horn-doggin' it out there somewhere. Either that or in some relatively rare instances, two people with "ordinary" numbers of Midichlorians somehow churn out another mouth to feed which suddenly, for no reason at all, has a greater number of Midichlorians than normal. Why would this be? This isn't heredity anymore, it's just Darwinism. Anybody, at any time, could be "blessed" with this "gift" of more Midichlorians so that they could be super-users of the Force one day (given the proper training). But it can't be this, because it is implied heavily that this is a heriditary trait and in the Skywalker case specifically, it is by virtue of the Midichlorians themselves which spawned a bloodline. Fine and dandy, but it clearly doesn't go far to explaining the other 5000 Jedi out there.

So, what's up with Leia? Nobody ever says that they "feel" her, so obviously they don't even though everybody seems to "know" her quite well.



This "know" theory is about as sturdy as a house of cards.

2-1B
10-05-2003, 02:11 AM
Well, Qui-Gon did say to Obi-Wan "there's something about this boy" when he was talking into that disposable razor commlink, so I think he did "feel" Ani, although it's vaguely stated . . .

As for Leia, it confuses me as well. Luke could tap into her mind in ESB and it makes "sense" later because we find out she is his sister. With Vader, I dunno . . . I've read criticism in the past about Vader not knowing it was his own daughter but of course we can chalk it up to the real world and the fact that they weren't supposed to be siblings when they made the movies in the first place. Of course, then we have to dismiss the rationalization for Luke's Vulcan Mind Meld on Leia in ESB because they weren't gonna be siblings, right?

Back to Vader, I don't have a problem with it. Sure, he "felt" Luke in the Trench Run but we might say it's because Luke was "using the Force" at the time . . . regardless, even though Luke was "felt" by Vader, Vader didn't know Luke was his son at that time. He probably went to the grapevine after the big defeat and put it all together when he heard the name Skywalker.

stillakid
10-05-2003, 05:58 PM
Well, Qui-Gon did say to Obi-Wan "there's something about this boy" when he was talking into that disposable razor commlink, so I think he did "feel" Ani, although it's vaguely stated . . .
I knew you were going to say that! :evil: Or maybe Qui Gon just likes little boys. :sur:


As for Leia, it confuses me as well. Luke could tap into her mind in ESB and it makes "sense" later because we find out she is his sister. With Vader, I dunno . . . I've read criticism in the past about Vader not knowing it was his own daughter but of course we can chalk it up to the real world and the fact that they weren't supposed to be siblings when they made the movies in the first place. Of course, then we have to dismiss the rationalization for Luke's Vulcan Mind Meld on Leia in ESB because they weren't gonna be siblings, right?
Honestly, the only place I've heard this "rumor" about Luke and Leia's relationship is here. Where did you hear this, that they weren't originally meant to be siblings?

Not that it really matters. What's done is done and despite it appearing to be a little too convenient an occurrance, it all works out anyhow (save for the smooch in ESB :kiss: ). I attribute Luke's "mind meld" to Leia in ESB to the standard Jedi package power of "mind control." Of course, the only time we see it used is on the "weak minded" in order to influence their thoughts. It's possible that Luke was using the technique to "transmit" the image of his whereabouts ("I know where Luke is") to Leia instead of truly altering her thoughts or actions. Taken this way, it wouldn't matter at all if she were related or not. He could very easily have done it to Chewy or Lando, but dramatically it worked better for the story for him to "contact" her.



Back to Vader, I don't have a problem with it. Sure, he "felt" Luke in the Trench Run but we might say it's because Luke was "using the Force" at the time . . . regardless, even though Luke was "felt" by Vader, Vader didn't know Luke was his son at that time. He probably went to the grapevine after the big defeat and put it all together when he heard the name Skywalker. Exactly what I've been saying all along. Anyone who uses the Force "stirs up the pond" thereby making themselves known to any other Force sensitive person who happens to be around. In fact, that's one of the big "lessons" in the trench run. Luke isn't using the Force (read: trusting his "humanity," ergo "feelings") so Vader doesn't sense him. It is only after Luke gets the friendly reminder to trust himself (ie. his humanity )(Lucas has stated himself several times that this was a "man vs. machine" story) that Vader gets that "tingle" and he says point blank, "The Force is strong with this one." That's the whole point and it is illustrated very well in that one sequence. How anyone could twist the logic so that it was because "Vader knew Luke" is beyond me.

2-1B
10-05-2003, 10:18 PM
For years I've read comments from people who dislike ROTJ and they often refer to the cheap copout of making Luke and Leia siblings.

I have never heard from anyone "up at the ranch" that they were always meant to be siblings, it's just an assumption I made over the years from all the complaints I heard.

I have absolutely no facts to back up the idea that they weren't always going to be siblings. But I also have no facts pointing to the opposite.

JediTricks
10-06-2003, 09:26 PM
Just a quick point Stilla because I really am too busy to keep arguing with you on this:

In fact, that's one of the big "lessons" in the trench run. Luke isn't using the Force (read: trusting his "humanity," ergo "feelings") so Vader doesn't sense him. It is only after Luke gets the friendly reminder to trust himself (ie. his humanity )(Lucas has stated himself several times that this was a "man vs. machine" story) that Vader gets that "tingle" and he says point blank, "The Force is strong with this one." That's the whole point and it is illustrated very well in that one sequence. This whole statement of yours is making a claim of fact when you have only supposition and interpretation. I don't deny that this could be the point illustrated, but we don't have solid evidence that this is the point; for all we know, Vader is sensing Obi-Wan's presence as the Force spirit visiting Luke since that's exactly when Vader comments about the Force being strong there.

stillakid
10-06-2003, 11:37 PM
I'll agree to disagree. How's that? :)

Have a good week. Get out and vote! :Pirate:

Turambar
10-07-2003, 05:58 PM
[QUOTE=stillakid]

Oh yeah, that theory that Midi's are Force-exhaust. Right. Ok, so Ani apparently did use the Force...some. But he wasn't trained by the time we meet him in TPM and his use of the Force has been pretty limited, we are led to believe. Where did all these Midi's come from then? If he hasn't been using the Force much, then how did all these Midi's come to be?

Yeah, I toyed around with the Force-exhaust theory, too, but it just doesn't work as some of us have pointed out. In the force theory that I posted I just went with what we know: the ability to use the force is inherited, and people with the ability to use the force have more midis.
It's not the use of the force that results in midis -- that wouldn't make any sense for a number of reasons. So, it has to be the ABILITY that leads to high numbers of the little indicators. That's the only way I got it to make sense: the ability is inherited; greater potential = more midis.
That's also the only way it would work for jedi testing potential students. They'd look for people with great potential since most itty bitty kids probably wouldn't be unknowingly using the force enough to get anyone's attention.