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El Chuxter
08-22-2003, 01:32 PM
I've been listening to the Return of the Jedi Radio Drama in my car the past few days, and something that I'd previously considered a throwaway line seems to contrast pretty interestingly with one of the most important lines from Attack of the Clones.

Luke: You can't die, Master Yoda.
Yoda: Strong am I in the Force, but not that strong.

Anakin: I will be the most powerful Jedi ever, and I'll even be able to stop people from dying.

We already know from TPM that Anakin is (potentially, at least) stronger in the Force than Yoda. That's not an issue. We also know that the line in ROTJ was probably intended as nothing more than just a cute one-liner twenty years ago.

But the line in AOTC is definitely not a throwaway. It's foreshadowing something, but what?

Is it just a reference to Vader's saving Luke (and "Anakin," who according to Obi-Wan, is dead) in ROTJ? Or maybe the three Jedi we know to return from the dead (Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Qui-Gon) were able to do so because of their own powers in the Force and the love (familial, of course) they felt for the Chosen One?

Or perhaps the lines aren't connected, and Anakin will fall to the Dark Side because he believes fails in his promise, allowing Padme to die (or appear to be dead to him, at least).

Or something altogether different, maybe?

icatch9
08-22-2003, 01:37 PM
Good points. To me, Yoda's line is important. Strong am I, but not that strong. So, it seems as if it's impossible for someone to not die when he should. He doesn't say, Strong am I but possilbe that is not.

So, perhaps what is more likely to happen is that Anakin does die or encounters an event that would kill a normal jedi, but he's not normal and he doesn't die. Kind of like a Neo moment. This is the key event that makes him turn into Vader and thus the good man that was Anakin was destroyed.

Speculation to say the least, but I do believe something will come of these lines.

Pendo
08-22-2003, 02:00 PM
So, perhaps what is more likely to happen is that Anakin does die or encounters an event that would kill a normal jedi, but he's not normal and he doesn't die. Kind of like a Neo moment. This is the key event that makes him turn into Vader and thus the good man that was Anakin was destroyed.

That could be the 'lava theory', sorry I brought it back up guys...:rolleyes:. Any normal guy would have died falling into that, but maybe Anakin's use of the force was strong enough to allow him to survive long enough until he is put in the suit :).

PENDO!

stillakid
08-22-2003, 02:00 PM
But the line in AOTC is definitely not a throwaway. It's foreshadowing something, but what?

You're assuming that George is a top notch screenwriter. I submit that there is more than enough evidence to prove that he, indeed, is not. So the fact very well may be, and most likely is, that the line in AOTC is indeed a throwaway and indicates no substantial meaning whatsoever.

If you somehow managed to disagree with that assessment, the fact remains however that any event that a line like that might foreshadow would belong somewhere in the Original Trilogy. As we not only saw nothing of the sort, but also no allusion to any kind of "superpower" like that was made by Vader, it is reasonable to say that the line had better not be an element of foreshadowing lest it fall short of its intended goal and once again proving that George's writing ability isn't up to snuff.

So, any way you slice it, George screwed up somewhere, either in AOTC or in the OT. And being that the OT managed to be the more popular and critically acclaimed trilogy of the series thus far, I'm inclined to go with the summation that the line in AOTC was out of place. It would best to think of most of the Prequel lines and events as "throwaways," lest they cast serious structural and continuity problems upon an otherwise enjoyable classic trilogy of films.

icatch9
08-22-2003, 02:53 PM
You're assuming that George is a top notch screenwriter. I submit that there is more than enough evidence to prove that he, indeed, is not. So the fact very well may be, and most likely is, that the line in AOTC is indeed a throwaway and indicates no substantial meaning whatsoever.

If you somehow managed to disagree with that assessment, the fact remains however that any event that a line like that might foreshadow would belong somewhere in the Original Trilogy. As we not only saw nothing of the sort, but also no allusion to any kind of "superpower" like that was made by Vader, it is reasonable to say that the line had better not be an element of foreshadowing lest it fall short of its intended goal and once again proving that George's writing ability isn't up to snuff.

So, any way you slice it, George screwed up somewhere, either in AOTC or in the OT. And being that the OT managed to be the more popular and critically acclaimed trilogy of the series thus far, I'm inclined to go with the summation that the line in AOTC was out of place. It would best to think of most of the Prequel lines and events as "throwaways," lest they cast serious structural and continuity problems upon an otherwise enjoyable classic trilogy of films.

Imagin that. Stillakid is insulting GL. Who didn't see that comeing. Stillneverhappykid more like it. I'm not bashing or flameing you, but I just knew that when I saw your name on this post it wouldn't be stateing something good :). Keep up the good work, someone has to play the part of the devils advocate.

stillakid
08-22-2003, 04:05 PM
Imagin that. Stillakid is insulting GL. Who didn't see that comeing. Stillneverhappykid more like it. I'm not bashing or flameing you, but I just knew that when I saw your name on this post it wouldn't be stateing something good :). Keep up the good work, someone has to play the part of the devils advocate.

Just stating the situation. Don't blame the messenger. :)


Just for giggles, please definitively refute anything that I've said thus far. Thanks!

dr_evazan22
08-22-2003, 10:52 PM
A good observation El Chux!

I think that there is some possibility here, although I don't feel that Anakin will necessarily prevent HIMSELF from dying, but Padme.

Anakin may be put in a situation where he needs to make a decision: Help Padme (who will need his help) or something else (like maybe helping Mace so he doesn't get killed). The right decision is not helping Padme because "help" her "you can, but destroy everything for which" she "has fought and suffered for".

Anakin will end up saving Padme's life only to lose her because he made a selfish decision and not a decision to help the galaxy.

Did that make sense?

DarthChuckMc
08-22-2003, 11:08 PM
When have the critics EVER liked Star Wars?

I still think (here comes an opinion based on nothing)......that you're looking at the Prequels through jaded eyes. Seeing something when you are a child can have a great impact on a person...positive or negative...

Face it, you (and the rest of us), have just "grown up". Your tastes have changed. It happens.

You are expecting to walk into a theater, 25 years later, and feel the same way you did when you were 5 years old.....sorry...it AIN'T gonna happen.

My kids, and nephews, and nieces, and younger cousins, and neighbor's children PREFER the Prequels. The OT is slow and boring to them.
Sure they like Luke, Han, the Ewoks and of course VADER, but that isn't enough to hold today's kids attention.

We grew up in different times. You mention a while back, that you felt the PT played out like a 2 hour video game....guess what...KIDS LIKE VIDEO GAMES.

If GL would've made the PT EXACTLY like the OT...the way you wanted it, honestly....I think it would've flopped.

I LOVE the OT, don't get me wrong, but I find as many faults in them as I do the PT. These movies are not perfect, nor are they meant to be.
They are 2 hour escapes from reality...a way to sell popcorn and cokes.
It's cowboys and indians in space, with a little King Arthur and 7 Samuri thrown in.

Why can't some people just accept the fact that these are just entertainment? Nothing more.

If the OT inspired you to be a screen writer, director, make-up artist, cg artist, computer programmer, pilot, rodeo clown..whatever...good for you. Seriously....good for you. I think it's great that some people got more out of the movies than I did.

You want to know what I got out of them? Fun, excitement, thrills, chills, happiness, joy..etc.

I don't think GL meant to inspire people to do anything other than have fun.


Now.....sorry for the rant...to be on topic...

GL has mentioned that Anakin's transformation into Vader, his...reawakening..if you will...is supposed to mirror a classic horror film. My guess is something along the lines of Frankenstein's monster.
Maybe Anakin does die. His body is partially destroyed be it by lava, lightsaber, force lightening....
Anakin dies, but his strength in the Force is so strong, that he brings himself back from the dead. Like a Jason, Michael Myers, Freddy kind of thing.

We see him die, dead as roadkill, ripped to shreds and burned alive. Obi-wan leaves, and we see Anakin slowly start go wake up..manically laughing..knowing that he was right...he cheated death..he was strong enough to keep someone from dying.

Just a way out there theory.

I apologize for any mispellings or run on sentences. I'm only a high school graduate from Florida...I blame the system :)

stillakid
08-22-2003, 11:41 PM
When have the critics EVER liked Star Wars?

I still think (here comes an opinion based on nothing)......that you're looking at the Prequels through jaded eyes. Seeing something when you are a child can have a great impact on a person...positive or negative...

Face it, you (and the rest of us), have just "grown up". Your tastes have changed. It happens.

You are expecting to walk into a theater, 25 years later, and feel the same way you did when you were 5 years old.....sorry...it AIN'T gonna happen.


No. I know that that is a favorite "out" by many who enjoy the Prequels thoroughly, but I promise you that it isn't the case for me.

The unsaid assertion by your statement is that children are morons who don't have the ability to recognize a good story when they see one. Sure, the language that we use to talk about films changes as we grow and our vocabulary expands, but a child (in that 7 to teen range as many of us were then) can tell a piece of garbage from the real thing. We used words like "cool" and "awesome" where as adults we can (some of us anyway) reasonably examine things like scenes, dialogue, acting, production design, continuity, etc. Yes, we've grown up and changed, but the basics of good storytelling never do and never will. TPM blew in many ways more than it didn't.

The question being, is this line a throwaway? You tell me. Where in the OT (read: the climax of the epic) does this concept of stopping people from dying ever come up? Where is it mentioned by Vader? By Anakin? Nowhere? Exactly. And why not? Afterall, this is one of the MAIN reasons that we are being force fed as reason for Anakin to get his dander up enough to become evil. We should therefore have the reasonable expectation that at some point...anypoint really, in Vader's career as an agent for the Darkside, that we see him make the attempt to A)stop people from dying, and B)succeed or fail at it.

Now, maybe Ozzel was really choking on a chicken McNugget when Vader called and Vader was really trying to help him to no avail...but I doubt it. :rolleyes:

So the question remains...what's up with this "I'll even stop people from dying" nonsense. Why is that line there at all? Is the OT flawed for not including any references to it or is AOTC flawed for foreshadowing an intention which will never come to pass. Or maybe the third option in which Georgie will reedit the OT to stuff in references to Vader trying to save lives, Obi giving proper credit to Qui Gon for finding Ani, and Midi's running the whole show. We'll be waiting with baited breath for the answers to all those perplexing questions! :)

2-1B
08-23-2003, 12:28 AM
The question being, is this line a throwaway? You tell me. Where in the OT (read: the climax of the epic) does this concept of stopping people from dying ever come up? Where is it mentioned by Vader? By Anakin? Nowhere? Exactly. And why not? Afterall, this is one of the MAIN reasons that we are being force fed as reason for Anakin to get his dander up enough to become evil. We should therefore have the reasonable expectation that at some point...anypoint really, in Vader's career as an agent for the Darkside, that we see him make the attempt to A)stop people from dying, and B)succeed or fail at it.


So the question remains...what's up with this "I'll even stop people from dying" nonsense. Why is that line there at all? Is the OT flawed for not including any references to it or is AOTC flawed for foreshadowing an intention which will never come to pass. Or maybe the third option in which Georgie will reedit the OT to stuff in references to Vader trying to save lives, Obi giving proper credit to Qui Gon for finding Ani, and Midi's running the whole show. We'll be waiting with baited breath for the answers to all those perplexing questions! :)



It's not nonsense, it's not even necessarily a foreshadowing, and it CERTAINLY does not mean that one or the other set of films is an ANY way flawed because of this.

Anakin has just returned with his mother's corpse and he also failed himself by slaying (understandably ;) ) his mother's murderers, their accomplices, and their innocents. Why the heck does this line have to "mean" anything (in terms of foreshadowing) to the rest of the films? :confused: I think it says a lot by itself already.

He's hurt. He's confused. He WANTS HIS MOTHER BACK and he doesn't want to ever experience such pain again. Soon later, during the funeral, he swears to his mother's grave that he won't fail her again. Now come on, who can't relate to that? I've experienced personal tragedies before and one of my thoughts was always that I never wanted to experience that again. Thankfully, I've never lost anyone and took the blame on myself but if I did, I can sympathize with how guilty I would feel. So Anakin feels responsible for not saving his mother and yet in his immaturity he is also shifting some of that blame on to Obi-Wan and, in a greater sense, the Jedi. He can't handle all of those feelings so he is partly scapegoating those who are not responsible.

Anyway, back to the dialogue at hand, I see how it can come into play later if he loses someone else . . . Padme especially, but in that case he'll have failed again and will REALLY be a timebomb over it. It doesn't have to come up again after that.

stillakid, WHY do we "need" to see Vader make an attempt to stop people from dying? I believe that this flaw in Anakin is one of the reasons he Falls to begin with - so why are we to expect his dead/now-evil self to carry on with his pre-evil desires? That makes no sense to me. They are trying to show how Anakin's character changes and yet you are asking for his now-changed self (OT) to act in accordance with his once-good self and his former motivations? I don't get it. :confused:

As for Yoda and his little gem, I don't think his line "strong am I, but not that strong" has ANYTHING to do with this Anakin line. To me, all he's saying is that no matter how powerful one is, he/she WILL die. Part of life is death. Death is a part of life. Intertwined. We can't live without eventually dying. :cry:

That's PART of Anakin's problem. He can't let go. It's not really Obi-Wan's fault that Shmi died because it's not like Obi knew of Shmi's plight and prevented Ani from going to her while she suffered. Ani was having dreams about her but Obi didn't know how real they were.
It's not Anakin's fault for not saving her because he made the best effort he could when his feelings became REALLY strong. Hindsight is partly his enemy here. If he had only left earlier, he could have saved her. Once he got to her, she was still alive but he couldn't help her further. He can't live with that. In his mind, he should have been able to save her.
As honorable as his attempts were, there are limits to what one can do. Instead of coping with a harsh reality of life, he can't deal with it so he resolves in his desperate state to NEVER let it happen again. We have to consider the emotional state of the character. This line does not have to be a foreshadowing of events in the OT, it works for me to just show Ani's current state of mind and how it will lead to further tragedy in the NEXT film, NOT a film that takes place 20 years later.

I'm sorry, but to me that line is a look inside himself more than anything. I'm assuming that we'll possibly see it played upon more in the next film but I don't think it's reasonable to expect it to play into the OT in any way. The damage will already have been done and hte character change will already have occurred.

:)

stillakid
08-23-2003, 10:42 AM
It's not nonsense, it's not even necessarily a foreshadowing, and it CERTAINLY does not mean that one or the other set of films is an ANY way flawed because of this.

Anakin has just returned with his mother's corpse and he also failed himself by slaying (understandably ;) ) his mother's murderers, their accomplices, and their innocents. Why the heck does this line have to "mean" anything (in terms of foreshadowing) to the rest of the films? :confused: I think it says a lot by itself already.

He's hurt. He's confused. He WANTS HIS MOTHER BACK and he doesn't want to ever experience such pain again. Soon later, during the funeral, he swears to his mother's grave that he won't fail her again. Now come on, who can't relate to that? I've experienced personal tragedies before and one of my thoughts was always that I never wanted to experience that again. Thankfully, I've never lost anyone and took the blame on myself but if I did, I can sympathize with how guilty I would feel. So Anakin feels responsible for not saving his mother and yet in his immaturity he is also shifting some of that blame on to Obi-Wan and, in a greater sense, the Jedi. He can't handle all of those feelings so he is partly scapegoating those who are not responsible.

Anyway, back to the dialogue at hand, I see how it can come into play later if he loses someone else . . . Padme especially, but in that case he'll have failed again and will REALLY be a timebomb over it. It doesn't have to come up again after that.

stillakid, WHY do we "need" to see Vader make an attempt to stop people from dying? I believe that this flaw in Anakin is one of the reasons he Falls to begin with - so why are we to expect his dead/now-evil self to carry on with his pre-evil desires? That makes no sense to me. They are trying to show how Anakin's character changes and yet you are asking for his now-changed self (OT) to act in accordance with his once-good self and his former motivations? I don't get it. :confused:

As for Yoda and his little gem, I don't think his line "strong am I, but not that strong" has ANYTHING to do with this Anakin line. To me, all he's saying is that no matter how powerful one is, he/she WILL die. Part of life is death. Death is a part of life. Intertwined. We can't live without eventually dying. :cry:

That's PART of Anakin's problem. He can't let go. It's not really Obi-Wan's fault that Shmi died because it's not like Obi knew of Shmi's plight and prevented Ani from going to her while she suffered. Ani was having dreams about her but Obi didn't know how real they were.
It's not Anakin's fault for not saving her because he made the best effort he could when his feelings became REALLY strong. Hindsight is partly his enemy here. If he had only left earlier, he could have saved her. Once he got to her, she was still alive but he couldn't help her further. He can't live with that. In his mind, he should have been able to save her.
As honorable as his attempts were, there are limits to what one can do. Instead of coping with a harsh reality of life, he can't deal with it so he resolves in his desperate state to NEVER let it happen again. We have to consider the emotional state of the character. This line does not have to be a foreshadowing of events in the OT, it works for me to just show Ani's current state of mind and how it will lead to further tragedy in the NEXT film, NOT a film that takes place 20 years later.

I'm sorry, but to me that line is a look inside himself more than anything. I'm assuming that we'll possibly see it played upon more in the next film but I don't think it's reasonable to expect it to play into the OT in any way. The damage will already have been done and hte character change will already have occurred.

:)

I'll buy that, for the most part. ;) I was responding to the assertion that it was a line that foreshadowed something. Being that we have hard proof that it in fact doesn't, that would lead to the conclusion that either the line was flawed or the later films were flawed.

However, taking your POV that the line is not meant to foreshadow anything, this leads back to a discussion about what is motivating Anakin to become Darth Vader in the first place. Quickly sliding into the arena of opinion, I don't feel as if Anakin simply being irrational is enough to drive a person to nearly erradicate his former personality. And certainly, this "irrational" personality type never manages to appear even once throughout Anakin's career as Darth Vader in the OT films. Quite the opposite. Darth Vader may be an impatient tyrant, but never really without just cause. We might not agree with his methods on moral grounds, but he definitely is operating from solid reasoning with every decision he makes.

There is a disconnect being formed between this irrational and unreasonable teenager and the adult we later know as Darth Vader. I just fail to see how the twain ever shall meet. :(

Sith Lord 0498
08-24-2003, 06:53 AM
There is a disconnect being formed between this irrational and unreasonable teenager and the adult we later know as Darth Vader. I just fail to see how the twain ever shall meet. :(

I think it will be the Clone Wars that make the connection. Historically, think about all the young boys who went off to World War I and II and came back several years later, haunted and mature far beyond their years. At the end of Episode II, Anakin is on the verge of going into the biggest war "since the formation of the Republic." This event is really going to make him grow up while at the same time fueling the darkness in him, which Palpatine will exploit.

Additionally, it will make his character arc mirror Luke's arc. Both started out as naive, innocent "children." By the second installment, both were fairly trained in the Force but they were reckless, impatient, and dangerous. And they both endured some traumatic family-related experience that permanently altered them (Shmi died; Vader's identity revealed). Episode VI showed a much more mature, controlled Luke that exemplified all the qualities of a noble Jedi Knight, and he was able to withstand the pull of the Dark Side. Episode III, on the other hand, will show how father and son reached the same fork on the same road but took completely different directions.

stillakid
08-24-2003, 12:35 PM
I think it will be the Clone Wars that make the connection. Historically, think about all the young boys who went off to World War I and II and came back several years later, haunted and mature far beyond their years. At the end of Episode II, Anakin is on the verge of going into the biggest war "since the formation of the Republic." This event is really going to make him grow up while at the same time fueling the darkness in him, which Palpatine will exploit.

Additionally, it will make his character arc mirror Luke's arc. Both started out as naive, innocent "children." By the second installment, both were fairly trained in the Force but they were reckless, impatient, and dangerous. And they both endured some traumatic family-related experience that permanently altered them (Shmi died; Vader's identity revealed). Episode VI showed a much more mature, controlled Luke that exemplified all the qualities of a noble Jedi Knight, and he was able to withstand the pull of the Dark Side. Episode III, on the other hand, will show how father and son reached the same fork on the same road but took completely different directions.

I like what you said and it seems to make perfect sense...

...except that still, the personalities of Anakin and Darth Vader don't match at all and I base that conclusion primarily upon the mechanism which is drawing Anakin to the darkside. It isn't out of political dissolusionment or any other entirely rational concerns. Instead, he is being entirely irrational as he himself even admits onscreen. The problem is that Darth Vader is entirely rational in his thoughts and actions. Anakin decidely isn't a viable precursor to Darth Vader.

Kidhuman
08-24-2003, 03:22 PM
Ahhhhh, but less we forget, he saved Luke from certain death.

Sith Lord 0498
08-24-2003, 04:23 PM
...except that still, the personalities of Anakin and Darth Vader don't match at all and I base that conclusion primarily upon the mechanism which is drawing Anakin to the darkside. It isn't out of political dissolusionment or any other entirely rational concerns. Instead, he is being entirely irrational as he himself even admits onscreen. The problem is that Darth Vader is entirely rational in his thoughts and actions. Anakin decidely isn't a viable precursor to Darth Vader.

That's based upon what we've seen in Episode II. What I'm saying is that his personality could change in the interim years between II and III. By Episode III, Anakin could very well become more rational than he is now. However, he must still be irrational to an extent in order to be seduced to the Dark Side.

Going back to your position that Vader is entirely rational in his thoughts, I don't see that as entirely true. Sure, he's rational when plotting schemes to capture and convert Luke or when he's commanding an army. But he has shown plenty of irrational actions and therefore shown us a glimpse of the Episode II Anakin.

The following are some examples:

Episode IV: choking Admiral Motti because he doesn't agree with Vader's position.

Episode V: his obsessive search for Skywalker at any expense (e.g. - leading his fleet into an asteroid field just to capture his bait)

Episode V: compulsive killing of commanders for slight slip-ups

Episode VI: allowing his love for Luke to affect his actions (e.g. - killing his master)

Looking at those examples, you can clearly see Anakin Skywalker as we currently know him inside Darth Vader's personality.

gtrain29
08-24-2003, 06:03 PM
Good points. To me, Yoda's line is important. Strong am I, but not that strong. So, it seems as if it's impossible for someone to not die when he should. He doesn't say, Strong am I but possilbe that is not.

So, perhaps what is more likely to happen is that Anakin does die or encounters an event that would kill a normal jedi, but he's not normal and he doesn't die. Kind of like a Neo moment. This is the key event that makes him turn into Vader and thus the good man that was Anakin was destroyed.

Speculation to say the least, but I do believe something will come of these lines.

I always took the yoda line to mean that no matter how strong he was in the force, his body was not physically able to sustain life any longer.

Yeah, after hearing the "keep people from dying" line I thought it would foreshadow something, too. Not in the OT as people keep posting, but maybe something in E3. At first I thought maybe Anikin's able to use his power to keep the emperor living into the hundreds, but if the line pans out at all it will probably be Anikin keeping himself alive after the lava pit as some of you have mentioned.

stillakid
08-25-2003, 10:06 PM
That's based upon what we've seen in Episode II. What I'm saying is that his personality could change in the interim years between II and III. By Episode III, Anakin could very well become more rational than he is now. However, he must still be irrational to an extent in order to be seduced to the Dark Side..

I don't agree that one going to the Darkside (or becoming evil from our point of view) must come from a position of irrationality. On the contrary, even the 9-11 highjackers truly believed their actions to not only be justified, but also entirely a rational act in the name of their cause. So to, Anakin could easily have been made to become a disciple of Palpatine's based soley on political grounds. Mix it together with some personal struggle (with Padme and Obi) and a lot of ego stroking and Palpatine has a right-hand man. But what we're getting instead is a selfish little brat who flies off the handle for concocted reasons that even he admits onscreen as being irrational. Simply put...I don't get it. Bottom line is that the Anakin of the Prequels is very poorly drawn and inconsistent with what he should be.


Going back to your position that Vader is entirely rational in his thoughts, I don't see that as entirely true. Sure, he's rational when plotting schemes to capture and convert Luke or when he's commanding an army. But he has shown plenty of irrational actions and therefore shown us a glimpse of the Episode II Anakin.

The following are some examples:

Episode IV: choking Admiral Motti because he doesn't agree with Vader's position..
As I said before, you may not agree with his methods, but his actions are entirely rational as a means to his goals...

That being the case, choking Motti wasn't irrational one bit. Not only was his own authority being challenged, but so too was the base of power that Palpatine established himself upon. Choking Motti served as a simple reminder to the room of greedy and power hungry slimeballs who really was in charge. Very rational indeed.



Episode V: his obsessive search for Skywalker at any expense (e.g. - leading his fleet into an asteroid field just to capture his bait).
Perhaps, but Vader and Palpatine both new that the only kind of person who could really threaten their regime would be someone with Jedi power. The longer Luke remained out of his grasp, the longer he had time to grow stronger and the more dangerous the boy became. Just as he said, "Asteroids don't concern me..." They could always build more ships and forceably recruit new troops. Getting the boy was of utmost importance and Vader knew it.


Episode V: compulsive killing of commanders for slight slip-ups.
That's not irrational...it's practical. Cut out the weak links and dead weight. The Empire had a firm grasp over the galaxy and a plentiful supply of potential officers. Killing a few wasn't a big deal. You're looking at this through the eyes of humans who value each human life. Unfortunately even on Earth, this isn't always the case. There are people out there who consider those below them as expendable when it suits their needs. Again, to us, it might seem irrational, but in truth, it's very practical and pragmatic in the long run to get rid of those who screw up.


Episode VI: allowing his love for Luke to affect his actions (e.g. - killing his master).
Wow! What's irrational about that? Finally seeing the light? Adjusting his destructive behavior for the good of his family and the galaxy at large? :confused:



Looking at those examples, you can clearly see Anakin Skywalker as we currently know him inside Darth Vader's personality.
I don't agree. Irrational Prequel-Anakin is clearly not the same guy that we know will live inside the mask.

DarthChuckMc
08-25-2003, 10:30 PM
I agree with the statement that war changes a man.

He was still a teenager in AOTC, and most of us know how true to life that situation can be.

I don't feel like I'm the same person I was when I was 16,17, heck even 25. At 31, I have matured a little bit more, and tend to think things out a lot more than I did in my teens.

I can relate to Anakin on that level, which is the feeling I think that GL was trying to convey to the audience.

I'm sure once he succumbs to the darkside, and Palps is his new master, he'll whip the whinney little teenie bopper into Sith shape.

I DO think some of Vader's actions are irrational. Choking people out because they disagree with you is not a rational decision. If the CEO of a company, started strangling his yes-men, because they made an off color remark at a staff meeting, I don't think a judge or jury would see that as a rational course of action.

Yeah, yeah, that's OUR world, and Vader's in Star Wars world, but that doesn't mean the rules are any different.

From the way Tarkin throws around orders, I don't see Vader as the Emperor's #1 guy anyway. He's just an enforcer. The Emperor wants soemthing done...send in the big mean guy in the black space suit to handle the beat downs.

It's not until TESB, when the Emperor contacts Vader via holo, that we get the vibe that Vader must be in pretty tight with ol' green teeth.

DarthChuckMc
08-25-2003, 10:40 PM
Holy crap..look what I found

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9768&page=1&pp=15

2-1B
08-26-2003, 01:49 AM
I'll buy that, for the most part. ;) I was responding to the assertion that it was a line that foreshadowed something. Being that we have hard proof that it in fact doesn't, that would lead to the conclusion that either the line was flawed or the later films were flawed.

Point taken. :)
Until Episode III shows me differently, I will keep the opinion that this line of dialogue is not a foreshadowing of anything but rather a look into Anakin's tortured soul.


However, taking your POV that the line is not meant to foreshadow anything, this leads back to a discussion about what is motivating Anakin to become Darth Vader in the first place. Quickly sliding into the arena of opinion, I don't feel as if Anakin simply being irrational is enough to drive a person to nearly erradicate his former personality. And certainly, this "irrational" personality type never manages to appear even once throughout Anakin's career as Darth Vader in the OT films. Quite the opposite. Darth Vader may be an impatient tyrant, but never really without just cause. We might not agree with his methods on moral grounds, but he definitely is operating from solid reasoning with every decision he makes.

There is a disconnect being formed between this irrational and unreasonable teenager and the adult we later know as Darth Vader. I just fail to see how the twain ever shall meet. :(

I think that's a fair question but we'll have to wait for Episode III to see if those gaps will be filled in.
As the Saga stands now, if I watch AOTC and then ANH . . . of course there's a HUGE disconnect. Personally, I think Anakin's irrationality is only a stepping stone to his Dark Side destiny. Had he gone from wiping out the Tuskens right into the Vader suit along with that calculating demeanor then I would agree 100% that it doesn't work.

I'm not sure there's anything else for me to debate on the topic until the third film is shown. I've read speculation about a possible "love triangle" between Obi/Ani/Padme and personally I don't think that would really help this issue. I mean, if Ani goes nuts over a broken heart, that will REALLY add to that irrationality which stillakid seems to loathe so much. :D

Think of this, too: Ani's irrationality in the Tusken/Shmi sequences may seem whiny or whatever - BUT it certainly led him to a sweet taste of the Dark Side, no? :confused: He was still an emotional wreck afterward but I believe that over time, he could learn how to challenge his anger into more productive avenues (for example - killing Imperial Officers for rational purposes Vs. killing people out of anger/jealousy/etc.)

I like what Sith Lord and Darth Chuck MC had to say concerning the Clone Wars - I think Anakin has some more growing up to do before he turns fully evil. It seems like Ep3 will take place a few years after AOTC so I am assuming that much of this maturing will take place off screen.
And I'm quite fine with that. If Ep3 starts off with an Anakin who seems much more in control of his emotions while showing a more solid demeanor, then I think we'll maybe be able to see some of that OT Vader we all seem to love. :)

stillakid
08-27-2003, 09:01 AM
Holy crap..look what I found

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9768&page=1&pp=15


Thanks for the, Caesar. :)

And by the way, mods, what the heck happened to my perfectly acceptable response to this post above? :confused: DC asked a question (in the original post) and I realized that I hadn't really addressed it directly. So what's the deal? :confused:

Jedi Clint
08-27-2003, 02:34 PM
Thanks for the, Caesar. :)

And by the way, mods, what the heck happened to my perfectly acceptable response to this post above? :confused: DC asked a question (in the original post) and I realized that I hadn't really addressed it directly. So what's the deal? :confused:

I can't remember the post you are referring to, and I did not remove any posts from this thread. You may direct your inquiry to LM, JT or SS. One of them should be able to answer your question.

stillakid
08-27-2003, 06:09 PM
I can't remember the post you are referring to, and I did not remove any posts from this thread. You may direct your inquiry to LM, JT or SS. One of them should be able to answer your question.


Hmm, I discovered something very weird. My post from this thread ended up here. (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=274487&postcount=17) I think Skynet is infiltrating the system somehow. :crazed: