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oafy-wan
11-25-2001, 07:58 PM
I know everyone's going to call me nuts for this, but I was just thinking about Jango, Boba, and Mace.

Rumors for Episode 2 show that Jango will be decapitated by Mace. In an interview Samuel said he will return for Ep. 3 but like all Jedi, he's going to die. This is where I think I'm nuts.

Maybe Boba kills Mace out of revenge for Jango. Perhaps Boba helps Anakin kill the Jedi and that's how they knew each other in "Empire". I know Boba is a little boy, but it is a shocking possibility.

Of course, that's my theory.

Wolfwood319
11-25-2001, 11:01 PM
Actually, I think Boba Fett is going to be around 16 in III.

I had the same feeling a while back when they first started talking about Boba Fett in EII. It kind of makes sense then, that Boba Fett is a reliable weapon for Vader if needed. Hence ESB.

Rollo Tomassi
11-26-2001, 02:45 AM
I brought this up in "Conflicts between jedi and love" But I think After Obi Wan and Anakin have their big battle in ACT II , padme is trying to escape Coruscant with the twins (that Vader doesn't know about.) The Jedi Temple has been invaded and only Mace, Yoda and Obi Wan make it out. (very cool fight scene where Vader takes out Plo Koon, Ki Adi Mindi and Eeth Koth in a 3 on 1 battle). The three remaining jedi realize all hope resides in the Skywalker children, so Mace and Obi Wan act as Decoys while Yoda gets padme off planet. Mace runs into a legion of Jedi hunting Stormtroopers and a vengeful 16 year old Boba Fett. After a climactic battle Mace "allows" himself to become one with the force (a la Ben in Episode IV) which to Fett appears as if he "disintegrated." Vader, who wanted Windu alive because he knows where Padme is, forever holds it against the young Fett and when ever he hires him he admonishes him with "No Disintegrations."

Meanwhile decoy Obi Wan runs into then Dark Lord himself and after being easily overpowered, Vader lets him go (because technically he doesnt know where Yoda and padme are) on the condition "he is never to come back" it is his final act of compassion for his former mentor...

JEDIpartner
11-27-2001, 12:24 PM
You think Anakin might kill Mace...? After all, Mace was the one who announced they wouldn't train him.

GNT
11-29-2001, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by oafy-wan
Maybe Boba kills Mace out of revenge for Jango. Perhaps Boba helps Anakin kill the Jedi and that's how they knew each other in "Empire". I know Boba is a little boy, but it is a shocking possibility.

I was thinking the same thing,

Jango finds Mace,Mace Fights Jango,Mace kills Jango,Boba finds Mace,Boba fights Mace,Boba Kills Mace,Han kills Boba :D

Wolfwood319
11-29-2001, 02:17 AM
Where does the Boba/Han connection start? Do you think we'll see that in EIII? Probably not, but Lucas has been pretty strict on what the EU can tell about Han's past. Sure we see Han/Boba meet in Crispin's Han Solo Trilogy, but even then, they skip big parts of Han's life.

I also heard a rumor that after Jango dies, Boba's on his way back to Slave I, where 2 Jedi are guarding it and Boba kills them. I think this was on TF.N a while back. If this is true, it shows that Boba can indeed kill jedis.

Co Jo-Da
11-30-2001, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by GNT
Jango finds Mace,Mace Fights Jango,Mace kills Jango,Boba finds Mace,Boba fights Mace,Boba Kills Mace,Han kills Boba :D

I like that theory as well... Boba avenges his fathers death by killing the Master Jedi Mace Windu, BOUNTY HUNTER STYLE...

Tycho
12-02-2001, 08:42 AM
I think that Han Solo is a clone, further antagonizing Boba Fett to hate him, as he is "solo" the one. The one loner who REBELS and isn't raised to follow the master's code - the programming laid down for all of JANGO Fett's progeny (cloned offspring).

Boba Fett is obviously Slave-One, but Han is free and flying Solo.

It makes perfect sense.

And yes, I believe that Boba tries to kill Mace to avenge his father, but ROLLO TAMASSI's version rocks. Fett might fail and Mace Windu vanishes, proving in the prequel trilogy, that a Jedi attune with the Force can do just that - as later Obi-Wan and Yoda must. It is something we don't have room to talk about here, but something the Jedi must learn to do. Rollo, I hope George doesn't mess your story up. I like it a lot!

Rollo Tomassi
12-02-2001, 12:24 PM
Thanks Tycho.

I'm a little leery of growing attached to my "definitive" version of Episode III, but it's fun to extrapolate with what we "know."

We know Anakin and Obi Wan have to fight. And Anakin has to lose.

We know Padme has the twins.

We know Yoda and Obi Wan escape.

We know Dooku is alive at the beginning of the movie. (or technically, alive at the end of the second.)

We know Obi Wan was a general under Bail Antilles.

So from there we can surmise a lot of things. Count Dooku will have to be dispatched in order for Anakin to rise. How will this come about? Will Palpatine engineer it? Will Dooku allow it to happen for the good of the Sith? My theory was that the beginning of the film revolves around a giant Republic/Empire invasion of Dooku's Confederations last stronghold on a some exotic new world. Reminiscent of the Hoth invasion in ESB. We would get to see General Kenobi and Bail Antilles in action during the vaunted CLONE WARS. And we would get to see Anakin trouncing some serious Confederation booty. There is a final confrontation between Dooku and Obi Wan and Anakin. before his demise, he makes a cryptic comment about Syo Dias and Palpatine which makes Obi Wan suspicious of the Chancellor/Emperor.
Obi Wan relates his suspicions to the Council (who have been suspicious of Palpatine for awhile) and to Padme. Padme goes to confront Palpatine who gleefully tells her (more for the audiences benefit than Padme's really) how he manipulated everything since the invasion of Naboo up until now to gain his unprecedented power. She rushes off to tell Anakin that his powerful benefactor is indeed evil. When she can't find Anakin, she goes to Obi Wan where Anakin finds them and "The Battle" commences. I originally thought Obi Wan and Anakin would be alone during their confrontation, but GNT brought up the intriguing and more dramatic possibility that Padme is present during the conflict and that she is wounded by one or both of them. This could lead to the reasons she does not live long after the births of the twins. Complications arise from the wound and the pregnancy.

Mace will have to be dispatched. (I can't see him or the other main Jedi characters surviving the third film and never being brought up in the OT.) Mace and Boba have an unresolved conflict at the end of the second film. It must be resolved somehow in the third film or there was no reason for Mace to kill Jango in the second.

Finally, I am still confused about whether Obi Wan knows whether there are, in fact, twins and when exactly they are born and how much time passes between Anakin's disfigurement. I am leaning to Obi Wan NOT knowing about Leia (thus his saying 'That boy is our last hope." in ESB). therefore the twins would be born out of his presence, perhaps on Alderaan (Giving George an excuse to use some of those wonderful production paintings of mcQuarries) where then Obi Wan shows up and takes Luke and and Yoda to Dagobah ("Something familiar about this place...") and then onto Tatooine to drop Luke off with Owen and Beru and walk off into the Tatooine sunset (as all great movies should end with a solitary figure walking into the sunset...)

Does anybody have any continuity questions I may have overlooked? I'd like to think of this as a collaborative effort and This is, of course, a work in progress...

bigbarada
12-02-2001, 12:54 PM
I agree with the idea of Obi-Wan possibly not knowing who Leia really is. His statement in ESB points directly to it. Maybe Yoda thought Obi-Wan was too great of a risk (he did train Anakin) and uses him and Luke as bait for Vader and Palpatine (hence keeping the Skywalker name). Meanwhile, Yoda oversees Leia's upbringing from afar, and maybe even uses his power to block her Force abilities from Vader on the Death Star in ANH.

or...

Maybe, Mace does live and is the one watching over Leia on Alderaan. He is obviously killed in ANH, but I wouldn't rule out Lucas filming more scenes and including Mace in Ep4.

The only thing that is still knawing at me is why Yoda is on Dagobah. Ben goes into hiding pretty much in the open on Tatooine, but Yoda takes all these precautions to conceal himself. Which makes me wonder, is Yoda hiding from Palpatine or from Mace? Is he involved in some treachery in Ep2 or 3 that he feels the need to seek refuge from other Jedi? Whatever it might be, Obi-Wan obviously doesn't know about it and his cluelessness to Leia's identity shows that death doesn't provide all the answers. This is just a thought that came to me a few minutes ago, so feel free to shoot it down. The idea of Yoda being a traitor of some sorts is pretty disturbing being he's one of my favorite characters.

Tycho
12-02-2001, 03:07 PM
Nobody comments on my Han is a Clone theory: I love it. Well you guys will see....

Back to Rollo Tomassi, as he's really on to something, though my friend Doug and I worked stuff out and I think Rollo's off on some details.



Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi

I'm a little leery of growing attached to my "definitive" version of Episode III, but it's fun to extrapolate with what we "know."


Yes, but by logic I think you are uncovering the major, necessary, and sensical outline to the entire plot. It can't hurt to be on target Rollo, and I think you are.




We know Obi Wan was a general under Bail Antilles.

So from there we can surmise a lot of things. Count Dooku will have to be dispatched in order for Anakin to rise. How will this come about? Will Palpatine engineer it? Will Dooku allow it to happen for the good of the Sith?

My theory was that the beginning of the film revolves around a giant Republic/Empire invasion of Dooku's Confederations last stronghold on a some exotic new world. Reminiscent of the Hoth invasion in ESB. We would get to see General Kenobi and Bail Antilles in action during the vaunted CLONE WARS. And we would get to see Anakin trouncing some serious Confederation booty.



Not some exotic new world: Alderaan. The wars have gotten so bad (they've coincidently brought the conflict to Alderaan). Especially if Palpatine has anything to gain by getting rid of Organa - though I think they might be allies at the opening of the film (as Bail doesn't know any better - or he may not throughout the prequels).

Obi-Wan is there fighting and having to actively work with Alderaan's troops, who incidently look like the Rebel Fleet Troopers from the Tantive IV who defend their Princess. I have reason to believe they were all or many from Alderaan (on a counselor ship, of course. Captain Antilles? Ring a bell? The Captain was related to Bail Antilles somehow, though Wedge, a Corellian, is not (likely).

Meanwhile, the worlds of Episode 3 (in order) might be Alderaan, Coruscant, Geonosis, Dagobah, Tatooine. This seems pretty logical and if anyone wants to discuss it further, let's keep it in this thread as it's intimately wound with the plot.

Meanwhile, Anakin has left the Jedi Order, broken his commitment Obi-Wan spoke of in the E2 trailer, and left because he wanted to live with Padme.

My friend thinks they go and live on Tatooine, his home, where he takes her to be far away from the madness. If she is pregnant and he knows about it (that doesn't mean he knows she lives to see the children born, mind you), Anakin might take her to Tatooine to shelter their new family they're beginning.

With the Clone Wars going badly (the clones are 'good guys' fighting with the Jedi against the Confederacy's droid, private planetary armies (like in the Civil War: Virginia, Mississippi, etc.), and maybe they usurp some clones (to make bad ones - maybe), Obi-Wan asks Naboo (through Padme) for help. She is no longer a queen or a senator any longer, but rather Anakin's housewife (though she has some pull with the people of Naboo). Anakin and Padme are likely living with Owen and Beru. Anakin argues they should not get involved, but like her future daughter, Padme is insistant they help friends. Owen says "no." But for the love of his wife, Anakin leaves with pregnant Padme (maybe not showing or with him knowing she is) to go "on a damned idealistic crusade" to bring Naboo's forces to bear on forces attacking Alderaan. For this favor - saving his entire planet - Bail Organa will adopt Padme's orphaned daughter. (as Organa is too old for a relationship with Padme, as I previously thought might be possible. No way with Jimmy Smits and Natalie Portman's age difference). So like Han Solo, confused by Leia's selfless acts of courage to remain and evacuate Echo Base, Anakin is taken by emotion to support Padme - typical theme reuse by Lucas.

Anakin, having lost the first Skywalker lightsaber in E2 (blue one we've seen in production shots) and not allowed to carry one, or having returned the green one (from a fallen Jedi in the arena, or Qui-Gon's original one), and the 2nd blue one (actually Obi-Wan's) has to use his own technical prowess to make a lightsaber in a hurry - we'll see it this time (the construction) from parts of R2D2 and C-3PO, will he produce the famous (Luke) Skywalker lightsaber (the 3rd blue one Anakin uses). That's why it's so lacking in 'professional trade parts' like red buttons and looks more 'built on the run w.o. temple resources).

Now Rollo Tamassi's theory continues on - and quite correctly -




There is a final confrontation between Dooku and Obi Wan and Anakin. before his demise, he makes a cryptic comment about Syo Dias and Palpatine which makes Obi Wan suspicious of the Chancellor/Emperor.
Obi Wan relates his suspicions to the Council (who have been suspicious of Palpatine for awhile) and to Padme. Padme goes to confront Palpatine who gleefully tells her (more for the audiences benefit than Padme's really) how he manipulated everything since the invasion of Naboo up until now to gain his unprecedented power.



I think this will parallel Return of the Jedi, "I am a Jedi, like Obi-Wan Kenobi, before me!"

Dooku may taunt him, "No it is inevitable. You underestimate the power of the Dark Side. Now take your Jedi weapon and strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete!"

Obi-Wan yells "Noooooo!" but it is not Anakin's way. He slays Dooku in cold blood. As I think the Count will already be defeated at this point, possibly wounded, so it will not be necessary in combat, but clearly a vengeful act on Anakin's part. Obi-Wan and Anakin do NOT fight each other over this in particular I think, but it makes their reunion difficult and the rift between them over the last 4 years is definitely obvious. Anakin is a maniac, unmindful of his training for sure.




She rushes off to tell Anakin that his powerful benefactor is indeed evil. When she can't find Anakin, she goes to Obi Wan where Anakin finds them and "The Battle" commences. I originally thought Obi Wan and Anakin would be alone during their confrontation, but GNT brought up the intriguing and more dramatic possibility that Padme is present during the conflict and that she is wounded by one or both of them. This could lead to the reasons she does not live long after the births of the twins. Complications arise from the wound and the pregnancy.



I think GNT is partially right. I don't think she is wounded in the conflict - maybe a handmaiden is - one sent to find the Jedi. And Anakin might be distracted by his argument with Obi-Wan and believe it is his wife. If he is better than Obi-Wan, he may even sacrafice himself in the fight (or try to) because he 'saw' Padme die - and forever leave Obi-Wan feeling guilty of the 'kill strike.' But his 'friend' Palpatine, won't let Anakin die...and his genetic make-up, midicholorians whatever, help him make it impossible for Anakin not to fight (the lava or whatever) to survive.

In pre-production art (which George is found of using - shown on tour in Magic of the Myth) Palpatine has a lair beneathe Coruscant in the planet's molten core - where his other throne lies. CORUSCANT is the location of the lava pit duel scene as Obi-Wan discovers Palpatine's true nature!




Mace will have to be dispatched. (I can't see him or the other main Jedi characters surviving the third film and never being brought up in the OT.) Mace and Boba have an unresolved conflict at the end of the second film. It must be resolved somehow in the third film or there was no reason for Mace to kill Jango in the second.

Right. Sorry Barada, but your alternate theories about Mace and Yoda do not add up. Rollo is actually the screenplay writer for Episode 3 now, LOL.




Finally, I am still confused about whether Obi Wan knows whether there are, in fact, twins and when exactly they are born and how much time passes between Anakin's disfigurement. I am leaning to Obi Wan NOT knowing about Leia (thus his saying 'That boy is our last hope." in ESB).

therefore the twins would be born out of his presence, perhaps on Alderaan (Giving George an excuse to use some of those wonderful production paintings of mcQuarries) where then Obi Wan shows up and takes Luke and and Yoda to Dagobah ("Something familiar about this place...") and then onto Tatooine to drop Luke off with Owen and Beru and walk off into the Tatooine sunset (as all great movies should end with a solitary figure walking into the sunset...)

Does anybody have any continuity questions I may have overlooked? I'd like to think of this as a collaborative effort and This is, of course, a work in progress...

I think you got it. Yoda is likely protecting Padme. I honestly think JarJar is somehow involved as there is a point for 'the fool' character in Classic Mythology. The act will be designed to make us rethink how we treated JarJar -as his true worth will show and his character will have evolved. He was so obnoxious in Episode One because we were SUPPOSED to loathe him. Lucas is moral preaching about how we treat others different from us, weaker than us, and mythology always held lessons in morality. So JarJar serves a very serious point in his actual final deeds in the prequel trilogy - likely having something to do with sacraficing his life to save the twins and/or Padme. We will all cheer when JarJar dies or something, but then feel bad about it, because without his self-less act, A New Hope could never exist! JarJar fits in - I'm 100% sure of that. Sorry but you'll have to add him to our theory.

Meanwhile Rollo, you are doing awesome. Keep it going!

Tycho
12-02-2001, 03:34 PM
One more thing: Obi-Wan Kenobi will not fight DARTH VADER in the entire prequel trilogy. I am 70% sure of it.

He will be afraid to face Obi-Wan I think - though the theory that he lets him go, as a final favor to his old friend and master - and lies to Palpatine that Obi-Wan is dead, might be correct. So they could confront each other.

Actually, it echoes of Palpatine saying "It is the only way you can save your friends." Perhaps Anakin's allegiance to Palpatine also protects Obi-Wan, who the Sith know is still alive.

Obi-Wan lives so long as he doesn't interfere. That and Obi-Wan is a Sith-Killer of some accomplishment, and it would serve no purpose to face him, especially considering all the emotions involved. Meanwhile, Obi-Wan knows that 'Darth Vader's loyalty to him' will only go so far, but the Dark Lord is 10 times less likely to strike down his own son - as Anakin chose FAMILY over everything. So it is best for Obi-Wan to be exiled and watch over Luke (though Vader doesn't know that's why he agreed to leave.)

Remember "You should not have COME BACK" from ANH?

The lie had convinced Tarkin that Obi-Wan was likely dead, but he might have known that Kenobi survived the Jedi death as well: "Surely his fire has gone out of the universe by now." Implying that Tarkin figures the nearly 60 year old Kenobi could not have survived on the run that long, and some Death Squad or Obi-Wan's characteristic knack for finding trouble got him killed somewhere along the lines.

OK. Now I am not 70% sure VADER doesn't face Obi-Wan. Though I do think they agree to part ways without much of a fight -if any at all.

The big lightsaber fights will be ANAKIN vs. Obi-Wan, and Anakin vs. Dooku for his final revenge. Palpatine must somehow get involved - and maybe due to his age, he himself narrowly escapes Obi-Wan. I got a theory: maybe Obi-Wan could strike Palpatine down, but Palpatine must use Dark Side Lightning (on Obi-Wan, revealing his true nature) but VADER interferes and threatens to turn on Palpatine (who he owes for saving his life nonetheless) but will swear allegiance to Palpatine if he spares Obi-Wan (so long as he agrees to 'get the hell out of town).

There being no more Jedi, and his former apprentice buying Obi-Wan's life with his own, Obi-Wan must leave and acknowledge DARTH VADER's only act as a Jedi - thus also making him not the complete evil character (but rather the fallen hero).

And Vader swears his allegiance to Palpatine over Obi-Wan's life, thus one more reason, he must obey his master!

Jedi Clint
12-02-2001, 05:23 PM
After the close of AOTC.

Anakin sets off on a path to become the Republic's greatest warrior as the Clone Wars break out across the galaxy. He spends less time with Padme on Naboo, and more serving Palpatine and the Republic. Kenobi serves on Alderaan.


Star Wars Episode 3:

Act 1

Anakin vs. Dooku
Final battle of the Clone Wars. Although they are taking place across the galaxy, this battle is the most important victory for the Republic and Anakin leads them to victory. With Dooku exterminated the Confederacy lacks a military leader.

Kenobi is on Alderaan where Padme comes to inform him of Anakin's absence and her worry in regards to his character as of late. She also tells him that she is pregnant.

Act 2

Anakin vs. Kenobi

The Confederacy decides to negotiate with the Republic. During the negotiations the Confederate systems demand that they will only follow one man - Palpatine. Kenobi's failed attempt at drawing his friend back to the good side results in Anakin left almost lifeless and mutilated.


Act 3

Vader vs. Kenobi

A few months time has passed since the duel, and Palpatine request that his servant and apprentice Lord Vader take charge of exterminating the Rebellious Jedi Knights who turned on him once he declared himself Emperor. He learns the location of Obi Wan Kenobi and sets out to confront him. Padme is close to giving birth to her twins. Yoda takes her to safety and Kenobi is confronted by Vader. After his narrow escape, he meets with Yoda who puts Kenobi in charge of taking care of the infant Luke. He is to watch over him from afar at the Lars Homestead. Padme is taken to Alderaan to live in the court of Bail Organa. Her daughter Leia is adopted by the Organa's and becomes a princess on that world.

bigbarada
12-02-2001, 05:26 PM
Tycho, I'm confused as to where you get the notion that Anakin will build his lightsaber using parts from Threepio and Artoo.

Other than that, it seems you and Rollo have the basic storyline behind Ep3 nailed. However, I wouldn't underestimate George's knack for throwing in a curve ball from way out of left field.

My theory on Yoda was just an idea that popped into me head while typing my post. Just the ramblings of a lunatic, pay it no mind.;)

bigbarada
12-02-2001, 05:27 PM
Oh yeah, I highly doubt your Han is a clone theory. Sure it might fight into the story from a certain point of view; but it's just waaaaay too many coincidences. No offense, but I really hope you're wrong about that one.

chewie
12-02-2001, 06:44 PM
I wanna know what becomes of Naboo and the Gungans. Namely because Naboo and the Gungan people are never brought up in the OT.

Is Naboo the first target practice for the Death Star? :) (unlikely, as it took up until the time of ANH for it to become operational).
Is it a planet that is ravaged/destroyed by the Clone Wars? Or does Palpatine somehow show off his true power of the dark side by using the force to destroy the planet?

Anyway. Something is gonna happen to that planet. Any other theories?

Tycho
12-02-2001, 08:54 PM
Hmm, to answer Chewie, BigBarada, and JediClint in reverse order...

Chewie: I really don't have a guess except that maybe Naboo is still around and it's business as usual under the Empire, just not significant enough of planet in the Classic Trilogy. It is Palpatine's homeworld, so he might have some feelings about that....

Doubtful though.


BigBarada: I understand about the coincidences, but I don't think of Han being a clone as a coincidence, yet part of the final story synopsis: an old wizard, a young apprentice, a princess, and two droids take on an evil Empire of Dark Sourcerors and a fanatical clone army of limitless numbers, but they find unlikely allies in a rebelling clone soldier and his monstrous Wookiee friend, who protects our heroes until they can develop into the powerful warriors that finally restore justice to the galaxy. (Han's role revisited).

BigBarada (Too): my theory of why Anakin builds his lightsaber (the famous one) out of junk should hold true. That it's made from parts of Artoo and Threepio is just wishful thinking - it's another coincidence I think might be cute (though there will be almost enough of them at that point).


JediClint: Your theory seems pretty sound and sort of echoes Rollo Tamossi's and mine, however, I think the Confederacy hates Palpatine. They won't want to deal with him. He is Abraham Lincoln or Ulysses S. Grant to the Confederacy of our history - and in this case, right after Sherman (Anakin) assassinates Robert E. Lee or Jefferson Davis (Dooku's counterpart - which of course didn't happen in our history. I'm just using it as an alalogy). Ironically, though - the Licoln "preserve the union" platform is Palpatine's role in this trilogy. "If Abraham had been evil...."

However, you don't really take Anakin to the Dark Side in your version, though I think you just meant to outline the story. What motivates him, now? (Anakin)

Finally, I think that the Jedi will be blamed for the injustices of the original Clone Army, (if there is a second one) and Palpatine will use mass public support for the extermination of the Jedi (as in everything from lynch mobs to bounty hunters). It will be more of a hysteria in appearence (the Purge) than it will be guided by any edict (on the surface). Palpatine will be in complete control of course. It just won't look that way to the Jedi or the general public. I think Obi-Wan will be one of the few Jedi who know, before it is too late.

By the way? Is Tarkin fitting into all this? He is governor of Eriadu, and a military man for the Eriadu system out near the Mid-Rim.

How about Mon Mothma?

What do you think?

bigbarada
12-02-2001, 09:48 PM
I can kind of see where you are coming from with the clone Han thing, but I really am not too comfortable with it. Besides I thought it was stated that Han and Chewie would not be in the prequels.

Jedi Clint
12-02-2001, 10:59 PM
Tycho,

The reason my theory has the Jedi rebel against Palpatine is because I think G.L. will use the fate of the Samurai from fuedal Japan as a template for the Jedi of his Star Wars saga. When Japan switched from a fuedal system to the one it has today, the Emperor did away with the Samurai class, and replaced them with a central military. As a result many Samurai formed numerous small rebellions against the Emperor, while a few others took up positions in the new order before the change had completely taken place. For the Jedi, I think that it will probably be knowledge of Palpatine's true nature that causes them to rebel against him. I even think it is possible that what little remaining Jedi there were remaining after the Clone Wars are responsible for starting the Rebellion that we see in the OT. I completely agree that Palpatine could pin the entire Clone Wars debacle on the Jedi. "It was their idea to invade Geonosis and use the clones in the first place!" For some reason (that I am unsure of as of yet) your reply has started me thinking about what the Jedi and Obi Wan know about Palpatine. The Council/head of the order may not have the time, resources, or desire to conduct a massive investigation into what transpired on Kamino in AOTC. They may be content to let Kenobi look into it further, or may believe that they have found the source in Count Dooku. Kenobi might not be as certain of this. He may keep digging around until he finds out more about who ordered the clone army created. Perhaps when he does it is too late. He has enough time to tell Master Yoda, and then all hell breaks loose.

I see where your coming from with the tie in to our own civil war. The reason I have the reunification happen with the Confederacy comming together only under Palpatine in the negotiations, is because Palps is the master manipulator. I think he knows exactly what to offer and say to both sides to make them fall madly in love with him, or fear him as they have feared no one before. You don't just get to declare yourself Emperor by stepping up to the podium and using your vocal chords. You have to have a massive power structure in place as well as popularity, loyalty, strength, etc. They may love/hate him, but they know better than to cross him. Their military leader is M.I.A., and Palpatine is offering them a deal that makes them salivate. Their choice is really a non choice. Do they continue to fight for the ideals that Palpatine offers to incorporate into his new order and lose? I don't think so.

As for Anakin's transition to the Dark Side, you are correct. I did not really include that information because it was a very brief summary. I think what pushes him initially is the death of his Mother at the hands of the Raiders - a tragic life lesson at the very least. After that I think he vents his frustration into taking care of business, channeling his anger into destroying the enemy. I think he grounds himself with Padme. I also think there will be a rift formed between the two love birds between the films. The overall factor driving the split being Anakin's duty as a soldier becoming what it really should have been as a Jedi. His dedication to winning Palpatine's admiration becomes more important than keeping the affection of Padme. Their could be other differences of opinion and misunderstandings in the mix as well though. He resents Obi Wan for the loss of his mother due to what he perceives as being trained at a snails pace. I think he also lusts for power and presitige. Pride is his worst enemy. When Dooku shocks the hell out him in AOTC I think that is the first time he sees what beings with his ability are really capable of. From that time on he is really on a quest to be "the most powerful Jedi ever". I think it is his duel with Kenobi that brings out the devil in him so to speak. After all he does for the Republic, his former master (the one who cost him his mother) has the nerve to come tell him how he is on the wrong path, and that he should rethink his life. As far as Anakin is concerned he has obviously been on the right path since they parted ways. I would really like to know the exact dynamics of the confrontation between the two that ends in Anakin's "demise". After that duel though, Palpatine saves Anakin's life. He tells him that he can show him how his hate for Kenobi can make him powerful. He can return to his side as his apprentice, and learn the ways of the Sith. He is Darth Vader.

I have no clue whether we will see Tarkin in these films, but it would be neat. I do expect to see Mon Mothma in opposition to the preceedings that bring about the birth of the the Empire.

Tycho
12-02-2001, 11:52 PM
Isn't this a great discussion? They'll nominate us as a team to write E3's novelization! LOL


JEDI CLINT: the Samurai theory is very cool and I think you are on to something. Nice addition to the discussion. I do think there will be a combination of both our theories. You focused more on the Jedi, and myself and Tomassi on the political entities. The Jedi who break away, the 20 that leave, or some of them, could be turning into Dark Jedi that set themselves up like feudal warlords. That sort of thing mirrors Japan that you described, as well as a lot of Star Wars EU that has been written because professional writers thought it was logical, as well.



Originally posted by Jedi Clint


I see where your coming from with the tie in to our own civil war. The reason I have the reunification happen with the Confederacy comming together only under Palpatine in the negotiations, is because Palps is the master manipulator. I think he knows exactly what to offer and say to both sides to make them fall madly in love with him, or fear him as they have feared no one before. You don't just get to declare yourself Emperor by stepping up to the podium and using your vocal chords. You have to have a massive power structure in place as well as popularity, loyalty, strength, etc. They may love/hate him, but they know better than to cross him. Their military leader is M.I.A., and Palpatine is offering them a deal that makes them salivate. Their choice is really a non choice. Do they continue to fight for the ideals that Palpatine offers to incorporate into his new order and lose? I don't think so.

I think I can answer that: Military Governor Wilhuf Tarkin of Eriadu is Dooku's military commander of the Confederate Forces. Like General Lee to Jefferson Davis.

However, Tarkin is already and secretly in leauge with Palpatine and gets a sweet deal out of a Confederate surrender to the Republic, which Palpatine has already had tighter and tighter control over for the past 10 years, remember. So not both sides need to conceed to Palpatine, just loud opposition elements do in the Republic (Mon Mothma of Chandrilla, Bail Organa of Alderaan, - Garm Bel Ibis of Corellia? -wishful thinking). But yes, I think Tarkin fits in there, and he might even be a surprise we don't know about for Episode 2, but I bet he's definitely in Episode 3. Maybe he is still climbing to power in the Confederacy in E2.




I think he grounds himself with Padme. I also think there will be a rift formed between the two love birds between the films

His dedication to winning Palpatine's admiration becomes more important than keeping the affection of Padme.

No I think it is totally the opposite with Anakin and Padme. He is not going to develop a rift or distance from her at all, but just the opposite. He will love her so much, he would kill anyone to avenge her. That is why a Jedi cannot know Love.

At our base instincts we want to mate, protect our mates, and keep mating, while protecting our families. When we must, we resort to violence - and in a lawless society, what was it - Hobbe's State of Nature, or John Locke's Treatise of Governments - we would kill whoever stood in our way of being with the mate we desire. [way over-simplified, if you want the cheerleader, kill the quarterback, so only the Star Wars Fan is left for her to get together with. That occurs to everyone, as much as it occurs to the Quarterback to push buttons on everyone else's insecurities so they don't challenge his dominance as Big Man on Campus]. It's the Dark Side in all of us. My example employed more use of jealousy than I think we'll see in Anakin, versus just being able to defend her against conspiracies around them, but there is no way anything could be more passionate than him acting out of hate due to the loss of the possibility for love.

Now if you argue with the dominance of my argument, I will murder you unless my girlfriend gets here in time to distract me ;)

I'm kidding, so please do comment on my reasoning. This gun isn't loaded.

And in this climate, I don't think Anakin gives a darn about Palpatine. He doesn't want to be involved. I still think that it is his obvious dedication to her that gets him back into this mess, as his wife won't refuse a request to help Bail Organa and Obi-Wan.

So everything he does out of love and duty ends up betraying him. Even in the end, it sort of does in his view during ANH I suppose. His last 'act of love' will be letting Obi-Wan escape, and it turns out his old master only comes back having turned his son against him. By Jedi, Anakin's opinion on this and of Obi-Wan in general, changes considerably. I think you see that in the Ewok Village when Anakin's spirit stands warmly beside his former mentor.

Jedi Clint: your turn.

Rollo Tomassi, jump in any time.

Barada? Your 2 cents worth?

Anyone else?

This is the greatest discussion I've had in forums!

Jedi Clint
12-03-2001, 02:27 AM
I never meant to imply that Anakin does not love Padme. By "rift", I meant more along the lines of a Romeo and Juliet paradigm. The Forbidden Love trailer gives a taste of this with the following lines (forgive me if I don't quote exactly):

Anakin, "We could keep it a secret."
Padme, "It would destroy us." "I couldn't live that way could you Ani?"

It seems doomed from the beginning. They will never stop loving one another, but other factors in their life will rip them apart the harder they struggle to make it work. The Confederacy meant to kill Padme, and Anakin will probably be on a mission to make sure they no longer pose a threat to her. At the same time he does this, he is serving Palpatine and the Republic. The dark path he starts down to ensure Padme's safety begins to fulfill another deep seated need for Anakin......recognition of his accomplishments. In TPM Anakin has to show off: his protocol droid, his pod racer, and his abilities. When he scores victory after victory for the Republic, he becomes drunk on the approval of those he thinks highly of....namely Palpatine. As the Supreme Chancellor, his gratitude, praise, and recognition mean more than your average Joe (at least to Anakin). Now he feels he is ridding the galaxy of those who threaten his love, and he is becoming a grade A hero in the eyes of the Chancellor and the Republic he serves. At the same time he is jetting down the path to the dark side. Glory causes him to lose sight of his compassion. His fear of losing Padme (the love of his life) makes him forget to nurture that love. He spends less time with Padme, and more/all his time trying to protect her until finally he never makes it back to her. I don't think that Padme will stop loving Anakin either. I think she may become very concerned about what she sees when she looks into his eyes upon each subsequent return to her though.


I think it is very possible that he lets Kenobi escape.

Rollo Tomassi
12-03-2001, 09:43 AM
When I think of the relationship between Anakin and Padme, I keep coming back to all those references Lucas was makng about Othello. Palpatine is clearly the Iago character, whispering in Anakin/Othello's ear. Palpatine has "been watching Anakin's career with great interest" pulling him deeper and deeper into Sidious' web of deceit and lies. Soon, Anakin is listening to his only "true friend" the "benevolent" Chancellor Palpatine. After Padme confronts Palpatine and rushes off to tell Anakin and finds Obi Wan instead, Palpatine "suggests" to Anakin that something is going on between his wife and his former master. He stumbles in on them and "confirms"it, leading to "THE BATTLE"

I really like Alderaan being the stage for the giant Confederation battle. It would explain their disarmament in Episode IV "Alderaan is peaceful, we have no weapons..."

I think it's a given that Palpatine turns the general populace against the Jedi. I've always had the feeling that common citizens helped turn in jedi during the purge for rewards.

The Han Solo clone issue seems out of place and gimmicky for the third movie what with all the other issues that need to be dealt with. I believe it's a distinct possibility that Solo is indeed another clone of Jango (making young Daniel Logan a young Han Solo as well!!), and thus deserving of a jealous Boba Fett's wrath, but I think it will be resolved more in the EU novels between III and IV than in the actual movie.

I agree that Jar Jar, Tarkin, and Mon Mothma all have a part to play, but until I get the main points worked out in my head, I don't know where to insert them. Even smaller elements are rolling around in my head as well. For instance, How do Yoda and Padme and/or Obi Wan escape? Does one of them take a beat up old Correlian YT freighter off of Coruscant? Stuff like that I can see G. Lu sticking in the movie.

Darth Vader either A. knows Padme is pregnant but believes she has perished or B. Doesn't know about the pregnancy and thinks she has gone into hiding. If she is present during "the BATTLE" and is wounded than Anakin/Vader might believe she is dead. But if he knows about the children and thinks she MIGHT have survived, then wouldn't he put ALL his efforts into finding out for sure? I don't think he knows about the pregnancy.

This is a great discussion you guys!! My biggest fear is that G. Lu has somebody reading these forums and when they discover we've already disected his top secret treatment for Episode III he'll rewrite an inferior draft in order for us to be "suprised' by the third movie...:eek:

Tycho
12-03-2001, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
My biggest fear is that G. Lu has somebody reading these forums and when they discover we've already disected his top secret treatment for Episode III he'll rewrite an inferior draft in order for us to be "suprised' by the third movie...:eek:

LOL, I know! I thought about that, too! I'm liking our version of the E3 story a lot, now! But I think we are really on to it!

Yes! Alderaan's disarmament was a great point. I know they are disarmed, but why? Maybe Alderaan's navy attacks Geonosis, so our initial battle location is wrong. Same players, different endzone...? We still end up with negotiations for Alderaan's disarmament - maybe as a condition of the peace accords with the Confederacy. Whatever the case, I hope we get some scenes ON Alderaan so we can actually see the planet.

JEDI CLINT: you could be right. What you said makes sense, while it still keeps the passion of love between Anakin and Padme, though they each express it in different ways (Anakin obsessed with destroying the Confederacy to show his love for Padme - thus protecting her, while he wants to do greater and greater things!)

Rollo Tomassi
12-03-2001, 03:02 PM
I don't think G. Lu will recycle Geonosis for the big opening battle sequence. I like that it might be Alderaan (giving us a glimpse at that beautiful world before it's destruction in Episode IV) but if it's not Alderaan, I think it will be a brand new exotic world. Barren and bleak would set the tone so what would convey that kind of "battle hardened, world weary" motif? Snowy frozen tundra? Bombed out cityscape? Burnt and ashen forest? A combination of all three? George is a fan of single climate worlds, but he's gone thru pretty much all of them. Waterworld Kamino, Snowy Hoth, Swampy Dagobah, Tropical Jungle Yavin, Desert Tatooine, Forest Endor, Cityscape Coruscant, The open Plains of Naboo, Rocky Geonosis, Pink Fluffy Clouded Bespin, Underwater Otah Gunga... I see the misty Scottish highlands making a beautiful but sad epic battleground. Or a nice tropical island setting...(just kidding) but other than that, I think locales have been exhausted.

Does anyone think "the battle" won't take place on Coruscant? I can't see it taking place anywhere else. I've pictured at least part of it outside in a drizzle, so that both men are soaked and depressed, maybe even tears coming to their eyes, mixing with the rain, because they love and hate each other so much. Their sabers fizzling as the rain hits them. I picture powerful words during this moment. Accusations of betrayal from both men. A crescendo of music to match the mood. Powerful stuff. I know they've got a "lightsaber in the rain" battle in II, but I've had these images in my mind longer than I've known the plot to Episode II.

And finally, I've been thinking of the birth of the twins. Is it possible to keep Leia's birth from the audience so that it's a suprise in Episode VI? If we are following Obi Wan and his "confrontation" (not FIGHT) with Darth Vader, then by the time he gets to Alderaan, the twins have already been born. Yoda, Padme,and Obi Wan discuss the best place to hide young Luke (settling on Tatooine) and as they say their farewells to Padme and board their battered, inconspicuous YT-1300, the camera pans over to a handmaiden holding a second infant ( a la the pan to Palpatine at the end of Phantom Menace) Now, naturally, we would KNOW it was the infant Leia, but in terms of the cinematic story, it would not be revealed that the infant was one of twins. Thus "preserving" the secret until ROJ...

Jedi Clint
12-03-2001, 10:28 PM
My vote is for a brand new world to stage the battle on. I love that we get to see 2 new worlds in AOTC. Perhaps it is in the terms of the reunification agreement that Alderaan gets disarmed. I think they can work the events of E3 to allow Leia's true lineage to remain a surprise. I like the idea of having the duel between Obi and Ani to happen in bowels of Coruscant. Obi Wan seeks Anakin out there and follows Anakin and Palpatine far into the crust of the planet where glowing hot magma bubbles.

I have been enjoying this discussion as well. Sorry this reply was a bit brief.

Rollo Tomassi
12-03-2001, 11:40 PM
My thoughts on what has been brought up so far...


originally posted by Tycho
Meanwhile, Anakin has left the Jedi Order, broken his commitment Obi-Wan spoke of in the E2 trailer, and left because he wanted to live with Padme.

My friend thinks they go and live on Tatooine, his home, where he takes her to be far away from the madness. If she is pregnant and he knows about it (that doesn't mean he knows she lives to see the children born, mind you), Anakin might take her to Tatooine to shelter their new family they're beginning.
Meanwhile, Anakin has left the Jedi Order, broken his commitment Obi-Wan spoke of in the E2 trailer, and left because he wanted to live with Padme.

I can't see Anakin sitting the Clone Wars out and living with Owen and Beru on Tatooine. I think both he and Obi Wan, while at some odds with one another, are both very active in the Clone Wars and for the most part are still a team. I think due to the events in Episode II, Anakin might be afforded the status of Jedi Knight and even though she spoke to the contrary in the trailer, Padme and Anakin do indeed "keep it a secret."


originally posted by Tycho
Anakin and Padme are likely living with Owen and Beru. Anakin argues they should not get involved, but like her future daughter, Padme is insistant they help friends. Owen says "no." But for the love of his wife, Anakin leaves with pregnant Padme (maybe not showing or with him knowing she is) to go "on a damned idealistic crusade" to bring Naboo's forces to bear on forces attacking Alderaan.

I've always seen Naboo as relatively peaceful and not having anything more than an "honor guard" as a military force. Certainly nothing strong enough to intervene in a major conflict such as the one we've been describing.


originally posted by Tycho
I honestly think JarJar is somehow involved as there is a point for 'the fool' character in Classic Mythology. The act will be designed to make us rethink how we treated JarJar -as his true worth will show and his character will have evolved.

As the noose tightens around the now hunted Jedi, Padme will turn to the only non Jedi contact she has on the planet, Senator jar jar. He will arrange the transport that carries them off planet. While sacrificing his life is a distinct possibility, somehow I don't think George will get that gritty with the trilogy. Rather, there will be a wistful goodbye between Padme and her old friend who has matured from bumbling comic relief to true hero.


originally posted by chewie
I wanna know what becomes of Naboo and the Gungans. Namely because Naboo and the Gungan people are never brought up in the OT.

Neither are neimoudians, kaminoans, geonosians, dugs, nor any of the other podracers races, but that doesn't mean they blew up all of their planets either. I think the EU reason for no mention of Naboo will be Palpatine doctored the books dealing with the planet that he rose to power on. I think this will make an intriguing post- New Jedi Order book series as Luke and Leia finally discover their heritage (and an ancient Jar Jar Binks) on a long forgotten Naboo...

I completely agree with the Civil War analogy except you have to remember. In this version Lincoln and Jefferson are on the same side and manipulating EVERYBODY...

Tycho
12-04-2001, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi


I completely agree with the Civil War analogy except you have to remember. In this version Lincoln and Jefferson are on the same side and manipulating EVERYBODY...

A cool irony, isn't it? LOL at Palpatine - the evil genius. You gotta love him!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK- about Anakin sitting out the Clone Wars: I can't argue with you, it will be one way or the other. I think he does try to sit them out and live a normal life, and then gets swept up in it, because of his wife. But the part I'm most uncomfortable with is why does he make a cheap lightsaber out of junk? (do you or do you not view the LUKE Skywalker lightsaber (#1) as being substandard)

[this does not mean you don't think it's not cool looking - it's actually way cooler looking than these 'plastic toys' we've seen the Temple's Finest using. But those sabers do have standardized parts and buttons and things - are the Classic Trilogy Lightsabers 'junk' built on the run - and typical of our improvising heroes? Rate them in their fictional universe standards...]



Now to Naboo getting involved because Bail Organa needs help. True the Naboo have always had a small volunteer military, but they have dedicated forces like the Rebel Alliance would at Yavin. And the situation may be THAT desperate. Additionally, Palpatine would look good again, by sacraficing his home planet's forces to save Alderaan. (and it will be ironic that later Palpatine destroys it.) However, if he wants to shut Bail Organa up (assuming he's opposing Palpatine) the Chancelor simply saves Alderaan and Organa owes him. Disarmament is one part of the price. His silence as the Empire is created, is another, drastically more expensive piece. Later, Bail Organa realizes he made a terrible mistake (this could be years after Episode 3 and happens Off Screen). The Rebel Alliance is born!

I think Jedi Clint and I are right about the location of the duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Most planets have molten cores, lava etc., the deep, violent center of power in the galaxy, Coruscant, will spell Anakin's doom!


Keeping Leia's birth a secret (just to the characters and not to us, the movie audience) is a good plot device. Maybe even keeping it a secret to us (and just seeing Bail Organa with a young daughter for 'no particular reason') -but never revealing the girl is Padme's, might save one more 'surprise' for Episode 6 one day, when our grandkids view it all in order or something.
The theory that Obi-Wan doesn't know until his ghost learns the truth in Empire Strikes Back (as Luke leaves Dagobah), might hold a lot of water. In time we'll see. I hope this thread is still around in 2005. Imagine how many posts! LOL

Rollo Tomassi
12-04-2001, 09:23 AM
Maybe Anakin just shows up with his hobbled together lightsaber. Obi Wan says "What's that? You're not supposed to have a lightsaber. you aren't a Jedi!" and Anakin just rolls his eyes and gives him a whattreugonnado? look. I DO think the lightsaber looks like its rigged from spare parts, but so does Obi Wans. Maybe during the course of the war, they were losing them so fast, they couldn't be bothered to make spiffy looking ones and were cranking out functional but ugly ones.


The problem I'm wrestling with now: Obi Wan comes back with Dooku's cryptic words about Palpatine. He tells the council (who have been suspicious of Palpatine for awhile) and soon after Jedi become Wanted Outlaws. Does the council publicly oppose Palpatine? Is his reaction preemptive, that is, does he turn public opinion against them BEFORE they can publicly oppose him? HOW does he turn the entire galaxy against them? And in such a short time? Does he foster paranoia and distrust for these "super beings" that lord their power over the rest of the galaxy? Does Palpatine play his "They're different!" card? I find it tenuous that Palpatine could rally support against the "Guardians of Peace and Justice for a thousand generations" so quickly. SOMETHING happens and I can't put my finger on it. Are they scapegoats? How does that come about?

Think cinematically people. You've only got two hours and change to convince the audience that Palpatine has convinced the entire galaxy that Jedi are evil and must be purged. Less than that if you have to devote screen time to other things. I am at a loss as to how this comes about without making it sound completely contrived...I await your opinions.

Rollo Tomassi
12-04-2001, 09:35 AM
"Count Dooku!!

Count Dooku, FORMER JEDI, leader of the Confederation, beginner of the Clone Wars. Personal Jedi squabbles escalated to include all of us decent NON-JEDI citizens. Can we really afford to have these all powerful wizards running around starting intergalactic wars? I'm afraid the Jedi have outworn their usefulness. For the good of the Republic, we must purge them from our worlds. If they resist, it only proves their true intentions to destroy as all!!"

--Taken from Chancellor Palpatine's Jedi Purge speech

Count Dooku is the key! Well, that's my opinion. It needs work, but it is an intriguing possibility.

Tycho
12-04-2001, 10:53 AM
I agree with Rollo Tomassi: Count Dooku is a lot of the evidence he needs. Palpatine is also setting Dooku up for the fall, even.

But furthermore, there is no Council in Episode 3 (or an entirely new one).

Only Mace, Yoda, Ki-Adi Mundi and Plo Koon survive Episode 3. I thought TFN baciscally had that confirmed. True they have the authority to act as a Council, or appoint new members. They probably will - but many new members could be a lot less experienced than say Sae-Sae Tiin who I think we see bite the dustin Episode 2 (Two).

Furthermore, I think since Yoda usurps Palpatine's clones on Kamino (bringing them into the Battle of Genoisis in the first place) Palpatine can blame the Jedi Council for setting the clones loose in the first place. Palpatine may have even suggested to Yoda to use them, proving he's still trusted and can manipulate the Jedi Council even.

I think at first ONLY Obi-Wan will discover the truth about Palpatine and live to tell about it. The Sith might even set him up personally to take the fall as a criminal in the galaxy since the Sith can't seem to slay him (and never actually do - technically). Plus Anakin (Vader) likely let's him escape - but do you think Palpatine never forsees this possibility - or is even uninvolved in the 'Sith plot to let Obi-Wan LIVE?' It likely is a matter of Anakin giving himself to the Dark Side. "It is the only way he can save his friends." But if Palpatine would let Obi-Wan walk, don't think he would 'innocently' have another mechanism set in place to eliminate Obi-Wan (so it's not "the Sith's fault" if the public lynched him). Maybe tapes of him on Kamino, 'overseeing the whole Clone Army operation, so the Jedi can command battalions when they use this conflageration to rise to power' - and of course only Palpatine can SAVE the galaxy...

Jedi Clint
12-04-2001, 03:45 PM
I don't think that Anakin will ever live a day when he isn't supposed to have a lightsaber. It is my guesstimation that Anakin and Padme will have time to be love birds in secret on Coruscant when the Confederacy rebuilds it's army (with clones this time). There will be a brief time of uneasy "peace" (when they supposedly try to work things out) before they hit the most powerful worlds of the Republic, and hit them hard. I don't think the issue of why the style of lightsaber changes over time will ever be addressed in the films. If I had to guess at this, I would say that Kenobi made the saber he gave to Luke out of spare parts (it is the only one I remember from the OT that looked awkward in any way) and gave it to him saying "This is your father's lightsaber.........". He barely told him anything that was true even from a "certain point of view" during that conversation.

I think as fans we put more importance on the existence of Jedi than the make-believe characters of the SW saga do. They live in a galaxy full of crazy aliens and fantastic technology. Maybe they have heard that the Republic uses Jedi to keep the peace and that they are wizards, but the average Joe has probably never been in contact with one. The Jedi deal with the rulers of worlds rather than their citizens. The inhabitants of the planet Coruscant may be well aquainted with the Jedi, but once again the majority probably have no dealings with them. The senate and those involved with it would be closest to the Jedi in business and personal relationships. They are also aware of the events that push the Jedi out of their role as gaurdians of peace and justice. Some may disagree with what happens to them, others agree, and yet others are indifferent. Those are the people that will care whether the Jedi exist or do not. If grilled about the clone wars and how they started, Palpatine can always claim that the Jedi advised him to use the clone army on Geonosis against former Jedi Dooku. The senate will ratify the military creation act, and that could happen before the invasion, before the close of AOTC, or shortly there after. I believe when the Jedi rebel against the Emperor, it is a non issue whether they are exterminated or not amongst 99% of the Empire. Those that do care are the politicians who will eventually contribute to the formation of the Rebel Alliance. Wanted by the Empire posters throught the galaxy with the promise of reward will be more than enough incentive for the average being to turn in a Jedi. When someone turns them in, Vader and some military support drop in and wipe them out.

I agree that Anakin and many other Padawan learners might be afforded the status of Jedi Knight by the Council due to the lack of Jedi they believe are required to fight in the Clone Wars. I also agree that first Obi then Yoda are the only Jedi fortunate enough to know Palpatine's true nature before wanted posters hit Galactic Empire Post Offices everywhere ;).

Rollo Tomassi
12-06-2001, 10:13 AM
Cinematically speaking, when does Palpatine crown himself Emperor and change the Republic into the Empire?
Between II and III?
After the big battle at the beginning?
Before he accuses the Jedi?
After he accuses the Jedi?
Not until the end of the film?

My theory is that after the big battle where Dooku is eliminated and Obi Wan finds out about Syo Dyas/Palpatine, there is a galactic senate scene where Chancellor Palpatine announces the big victory and the reunification of the Repbulic, then admonishes the senate for allowing things to have gotten so far out of control, and the inneffectiveness of the Jedi as "Guardians of peace and justice' of the galaxy. He calls for a NEW ORDER and a standing military. This is when he becomes Emperor. Most will be so overjoyed that he staved off the crumbling of the Republic into factions, that they will go along. It has been rumored that Jar Jar will be instrumental in aiding his rise. I think that Palpatine will trick Jar Jar into supporting him and since everyone knows Senator Jar Jar to be a staunch, honest being, it quells a lot of misgivings in the senate. Other's will have private misgivings (Organa, Mothma, Padme, etc...) but there is little they can do.

What do you guys think?

Also, around this time, the heroes return (maybe in time to witness the senate scene, maybe they hear about it afterwards) Anakin talks with Palpatine who has begun to flatter and isolate the young hero and drops subtle hints about Padme and Obi Wan. Anakin then has a reunion with Padme. It starts out fine, but then they fight and he leaves. Obi Wan has a discussion with whats left of the council about Palpatine and his new order. then he goes to see Padme about it. During this meeting she tells Obi Wan that Anakin is growing distant, falling in too much with Palpatine. Obi Wan tells her his suspicions about Palpatine. She reveals her preganacy to Obi Wan and that Anakin doesn't know. This will be a touching moment (one of many in this film.) After this she goes to the new Emperor Palpatine and he reveals everything (as previously discussed). When she threatens to tell everyone, he brings up that she is secretly married to a Jedi and her objective credibility is shot. It is then that she goes to find Anakin, finds Obi Wan instead, and the two are discovered by Anakin...

Again...what do you guys think?

Jedi Clint
12-06-2001, 06:52 PM
Just a brief comment for now. I don't think Palpatine would willing tell Padme how he conquered the galaxy. Even if he did, I think it would be followed by her swift demise rather than her rushing off to tell Anakin. I don't think that (demise) will happen in E3.

I can see Palpatine giving a speech to the Senate as you described......perhaps during act 2.

Rollo Tomassi
12-06-2001, 07:57 PM
Intriguing possibility by Jedi Clint
Just a brief comment for now. I don't think Palpatine would willing tell Padme how he conquered the galaxy.


As I said before, it's more for the audience's benefit, than Padme's. Remember George doesn't think we, the audience, are very clever, so he has to spell everything out. I think Palpatine is egotistical enough to spill everything to her (kind of like his conversation with Luke in ROJ). The contrived part would be Padme keeping her mouth shut. I offered up the tenuous possibility of Palpatine lording her illicit relationship with a jedi over her head. It's not much, but it's all I can come up with.

Also, he lets her go, counting on Anakin finding her and Obi Wan together later, just as the Emperor has engineered it. It's no accident she runs to find Anakin and he is not there. As soon as she leaves, he contacts Anakin to come see him. Ensuring, that she will have to find Obi Wan instead. Since Sidious has previously sewn seeds of doubt in Anakin's mind "Suggesting" that Padme and Obi Wan are together as they speak will send Anakin into a jealous rage, opening him up to the dark side and the Sith Apprentice position.

graana
12-09-2001, 08:41 AM
Wow...this is a great thread...Ok, here are my two cents:
I remember reading a while ago (like pre TPM) in either the Annotated Screenplays (my fav source of possible spoilers) or maybe the ROJ novelization...but Lucas stated that "everyone who brought about the fall of the Jedi Die in ROJ"..thus tying up all the storylines in the whole saga in on eeneat presentation. NOw let's look at who pereshes. OK, Palpatine is a no brainer...and also so is Vader. Boba Fett also dies, so we can figure him into helping out...like most of you have already brought up. Don't forget about Jabba....he also dies AND is specifically noted in the ROJ novelization as killing Jedi. Now I realize that some of the controversial material in that novelization (i.e. - is Owen Obi's brother or not) may be disreguarded, but I thought this might tie in somehow to someone's theoies. And the last one, and potentally the most signifigant - Yoda perishes. Did he somehow involuntarily bring it about, does he just blame himself, or did something actually happen? You guys mention some great ideas as to how Yoda may have flubbed up or just been a scape goat...but since I just remembered this info, I thought I would post it to add some weight to your theories:crazed:

Rollo Tomassi
12-09-2001, 09:45 AM
Cool Idea about Jabba! Thanks graana! Now that you said that, I remember that from the novelization too. I don't know how we'd work the Jabba angle into the film. Much like the Han Solo clone theory, it might be better suited to EU than the actual film, but I can see Boba Fett making some off-handed comment to Vader "The Hutt said he would contribute his resources to finding the Jedi in exchange for his...operations being overlooked in this New Order." Vader: "Agreed. See that it is done." This would explain why Fett was always slummin' with Jabba on Tatooine. He's the unofficial Imperial liason...

Steingrabber
12-09-2001, 11:04 AM
I love this thread and I've been giving it a lot of thought but haven't really wanted to post anything until now. I really believe that Yoda is to the "light side" of the force, as Palpatine is to the dark. They're really like polar opposites. The only mistakes I can really see Yoda having made are:

1) Allowing Obi-wan to train Anakin and
2) Not knowing that Palpatine was the Sith Lord behind everything sooner

I think Yoda's take on everything is going to be that these things had to come to pass in order to fulfill the prophecy, which also states that when the chosen one is found, that dark times will follow.

Steingrabber
12-09-2001, 11:30 AM
At some point in the film, Anakin will have to learn who Palpatine really is, and I've been thinking about this for a while, so here are my thoughts.

After Anakin becomes a hero of the Clone Wars(hmm. hero to the Jedi, or hero to the New order), as has been stated so often, Palpatine will take him under his wings, perhaps privately as he has already been setting up the Jedi to take a beating from the public and would possibly not want Anakin in the public arena. This will be similar to Christ being out in the desert with Satan (sorry hate to get biblical) when he shows him everything he could gain by joining him. Wouldn't your wife like to have this....How could a slave afford this....etc.

Now here's something I've been thinking of for a long time. In ANH, Vader tells Tarkin that the last time he'd felt this "tremor in the force", that it was in the presence of his "old master". He's NOT talking about Obi-wan or Palpatine, because that just wouldn't make sense..."The last time I felt Obi-wan's presence was in the presence of Obi-wan"...see, makes no sense, and Palpatine is still his master at this point. SO....who is his "OLD Master"...I think it would be interesting if Palpatine sent him to a Sith Lord (maybe all of the talk of Darth Bane showing up) or had him meet Sidious without reavealing that it's actually himself, in order to train him and seduce him. How cool would it be to see Anakin fighting Sidious. If you couldn't see his face, which I'm sure they could do, you could see him do some pretty awesome stuff. Anyways, I think they definitely have to parallel Luke's training with Yoda to Anakin's training with whoever to show the fundamental differences between the dark and the light.

Another thought that just came to me is, we all know that Dooku survives EII, what if Anakin trains under him at some point. He'll definitely have one of the fundamentals in order to train him. Anakin will hate him with a passion. "Kill your master, and take his place at my side blah blah blah..." Just like a Sith. :evil:

Tycho
12-09-2001, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Steingrabber


Now here's something I've been thinking of for a long time. In ANH, Vader tells Tarkin that the last time he'd felt this "tremor in the force", that it was in the presence of his "old master". He's NOT talking about Obi-wan or Palpatine, because that just wouldn't make sense..."The last time I felt Obi-wan's presence was in the presence of Obi-wan"...see, makes no sense, and Palpatine is still his master at this point. SO....who is his "OLD Master"...I think it would be interesting if Palpatine sent him to a Sith Lord (maybe all of the talk of Darth Bane showing up) or had him meet Sidious without reavealing that it's actually himself, in order to train him and seduce him. How cool would it be to see Anakin fighting Sidious. If you couldn't see his face, which I'm sure they could do, you could see him do some pretty awesome stuff. Anyways, I think they definitely have to parallel Luke's training with Yoda to Anakin's training with whoever to show the fundamental differences between the dark and the light.

Another thought that just came to me is, we all know that Dooku survives EII, what if Anakin trains under him at some point. He'll definitely have one of the fundamentals in order to train him. Anakin will hate him with a passion. "Kill your master, and take his place at my side blah blah blah..." Just like a Sith. :evil:

I think you're on to something 'Stein' as I once thought the same thing about the quote to Tarkin in ANH.

Here's the OTHER possibilities:

bad dialogue writing - and we know this can occur:rolleyes:

or I once thought it possible that Qui-Gon's ghost or Force-presence hung over Obi-Wan, as his hung over Luke. Qui-Gon's presence might evoke a long-burried Light Side feeling of warth and recognition in Vader that he long thought burried. Were Qui-Gon able to interfere, he wouldn't want to see his two apprentices fighting.

There's still a point to Qui-Gon being in the story in the larger perspective, not just to pass Anakin off to Obi-Wan, or Lucas wouldn't have made Qui-Gon such a large role in the story. I think that Dooku was Qui-Gon's master and therefore Obi-Wan's 'grandpa' of sorts, is still only part of it. It's got to be multiple layers of dark betrayals...

And yes, I think Anakin slays Dooku for sure and 'takes his place as a Sith Lord by doing so.' Will Anakin KNOW that Dooku is training him? That I wonder.

Steingrabber
12-09-2001, 02:59 PM
Another thought I've been pondering for a while here. Will it be apparent to the audience that Anakin has become Vader. Think about how powerful it was when Vader told Luke he was his old man. Everyone was debating it until Jedi came out, and held their collective breaths when Yoda answered Luke's question. For the kids who will actually be able to see Epidode's I-VI IN ORDER as their first time viewing the films, how anti-climactic it would be if everyone knew that Anakin was Vader from the very start. We'll all know it, but for people who've never seen the movies it would be nowhere near as powerful. Who knows?:rolleyes:
Keep in mind that not everyone follows all of the news and interviews like we do, and just want to watch a movie one night.

Little Johnny (2025): "Ooohhh....Star Wars... I heard those were pretty cool movies."

Rollo Tomassi
12-09-2001, 03:14 PM
"I sense something..a presence I haven't felt since..."

then later on


"A tremor in the force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old Master."

"it" refers to the tremor, not the presence. So it's perfectly reasonable (if hokey) dialogue.



I don't believe Anakin trained under any Sith Lord. He trained under Obi Wan and then went over to the Dark Side. Remember, Palpatine has been seducing young Skywalker for many years. Manipulating him so that when the time comes, the right combination of events, would force him to the dark side. Once he'd made that choice, Palpatine revealing himself would simply be a formality. it's not like Anakin would go "oooh. you tricked me. I'm going back to be a good guy now..." I don't think the dark side is that...disposable. My theory is that the only reason Anakin survives "the Battle" with Obi Wan after he drops into the molten pit or wherever is his hatred keeps him alive. He completely gives in to the darkside in order to use the Force to "float" on lava, or breathe it or whatever. His hatred keeps him from dying and he must forever hate in order to keep the channel to the darkside power open which in turn keeps his body alive. That's why he dies in ROJ. He chose the light side again and it wasn't strong enough to keep his disfigured body going.

I think there will be a scene (the Darth Vader reveal) where Palpatine explains this to Anakin (and by proxy, the audience) and Anakin agrees to become the new Sith Lord.

Rollo Tomassi
12-09-2001, 03:21 PM
Since the entire Six movie Saga is about Anakin, I don't think you can get by without revealing the fact that he's Vader in III. Besides, the scene's still pretty powerful because Luke doesn't know the truth. Don't you watch the trilogy differently knowing that Vader is Luke and Leia's Dad in ANH? I do...

bigbarada
12-09-2001, 04:02 PM
It's the same kind of storytelling device used in Oedipus. The audience knows who Oedipus and Jocasta and Laius really are, but the character have no clue. It's called "dramatic irony."

Actually, the secret isn't really laid out in the open right away but an attentive audience will be able to figure it out quickly. I believe it will be the same with the Anakin/Vader connection. It won't be mentioned outright but the audience will "have their suspicions" before it is confirmed in ROTJ.

(Hmmmm, I wonder what the significance of Jocasta Nu sharing a name with Oedipus' mother/wife is?)

Also, keep in mind that GL himself has claimed that there are several things that would seem to be important but will never be explained in the films. For instance, Obi-Wan's ability to retain his identity after his death. According to GL, it's something that Yoda taught him how to do between episodes 3 and 4; so we'll never see it on screen. Could explain why Qui-Gonn didn't disappear, but that's a subject for a different thread.:)

I think, graana, brings up an interesting point about Yoda also. However, I'm thinking Yoda maybe had an indirect, unknowing hand in the "fall of the Jedi."

Don't forget, Yoda's advice to Luke in ROTJ, "Do not underestimate the power of the Emperor." Spoken in clear, unbroken english so it must be important. Maybe that was Yoda's fatal mistake that helped bring about the Jedi's fall.

Steingrabber
12-09-2001, 05:22 PM
I love discussing prequel possibilities with other intelligent people. It's...intoxicating. Heh heh. Anyways, okay, I can see where everyone is coming from in response to my previous thoughts. I never thought that Palpatine would pull his hood down or anything and be like "Surprise!". I would like to see some training in the dark side though and get some deeper thoughts from a Sith Lord other than just hate, kill and power. They've survived for so long under the noses of the Jedi that there's definitely some history lessons I'd love to hear. I'd just like to see some more screen time devoted to Anakin/Vader's relationship with Palpatine. It's one thing to turn to the dark side, it's another to become a Dark Lord of the Sith.

How soon in the film should the transformation take place? Should the Anakin/Kenobi duel happen at the end? I'd like to see it happen closer to the beginning. I'm concerned that there will be too many questions left unanswered. I wish GL would give us a film long enough to require a break at some point. I don't think any of us would ever complain that a SW film is too long.

bigbarada
12-09-2001, 06:22 PM
Perhaps an excerpt from the Episode 1 novelization can shed some light on things:


Darth Sidious stood high on a balcony overlooking Coruscant, his concealing black robes making him appear as if he were a creature produced by the night. He stood facing the city, his eyes directed at its lights, at the faint movement of its air traffic, disinterested in his apprentice, Darth Maul, who waited to one side.

His thought were of the Sith and of the history of their order.

The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago. They were a cult given over to the dark side of the Force, embracing fully the concept that power denied was power wasted. A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith, a singular dissident in an order of harmonious followers, a rebel who understood from the beginning that the real power of the Force lay not in the light, but in the dark. Failing to gain approval for his beliefs from the Council, he had broken with the order, departing with his knowledge and his skills, swearing in secret that he could bring down those who had dismissed him.

He was alone at first, but others from the Jedi order who believed as he did and who had followed hin in his study of the dark side soon came over. Others were recruited, and soon the ranks of the Sith swelled to more than fifty in number. Disdaining the concepts of cooperation and consensus, relying on the belief that acquisition of power in any form lends strength and yields control, the Sith began to build their cult in opposition to the Jedi. Theirs was not an order created to serve; theirs was an order created to dominate.

Their war with the Jedi was vengeful and furious and ultimately doomed. The rogue Jedi who had founded the Sith order was its nominal leader, but his ambition excluded any sharing of power. His disciples began to conspire against him and each other almost from the beginning, so that the war they instigated was as much with each other as with the Jedi.

In the end, the Sith destroyed themselves. They destroyed their leader first, then each other. What few survived the initial bloodbath were quickly dispatched by watchful Jedi. In a matter of only weeks, all of them died.

All but one.

Darth Maul shifted impatiently. The younger Sith had not yet learned his Master's patience; that would come with time and training. It was patience that had saved the Sith order in the end. It was patience that would give them their victory now over the Jedi.

The Sith who had survived when all of his fellows had died had understood that. He had adapted patience as a virtue when the others had forsaken it. He had adopted cunning, stealth, and subterfuge as the foundation of his way--old Jedi virtues the others had disdained. He stood aside while the Sith tore at each other like kriks and were destroyed. When the carnage was complete, he went into hiding, biding his time, waiting for his chance.

When it was believed all of the Sith were destroyed, he emerged from his concealment. At first he worked alone, but he was growing old and he was the last of his kind. Eventually, he went out in search of an apprentice. Finding one, he trained him to carry on their work. But there would only be two at any one time. There would be no repetition of the mistakes of the old order, no struggle between Siths warring for power within the cult. Their common enemy was the Jedi, not each other. It was for their war with the Jedi they must save themselves.

The Sith who reinvented the order called himself Darth Bane.

A thousand years had passed since the Sith were believed destroyed, and the time they had waited for had come at last.

"Tatooine is sparsely populated." His student's rough voice broke into his thoughts, and Darth Sidious lifted his eyes to the hologram. "The Hutts rule. The Republic has no presence. If the trace was corect, Master, I will find them quickly and without hindrance."

There's the original reference to Darth Bane, but this passage seems to imply that he is dead. Otherwise, why would he allow Sidious to take on an apprentice. Assuming Sidious was Bane's apprentice. It's all very general.

Sidious could be a self taught Sith and Dooku could be the apprentice Bane seduced.

I usually don't put much faith in what's mentioned in the novels but GL himself said that he worked personally with Terry Brooks to lay out the history of the Jedi and Sith. If anyone is interested in reading the passage about the Jedi's history let me know and I'll post it here.:)

Rollo Tomassi
12-09-2001, 11:54 PM
Darth Bane was a thousand years before Sidious. Chances are he wasn't Bane's apprentice. But this brings up the intriguing mystery (on a far away tangent from Episode III) Who was Sidious' Master? Sidious/Palpatine was involved in Naboo politics from a very young age (as is customary on Naboo) When was he inducted into the Sith? At birth? Did his master and he live secluded away on Naboo with the intent of Palpatine working his way thru the political system to eventually be Chancellor/Emperor? Did the Sith from Bane on have a master goal of Galactic Domination or was this Palpatines idea or perhaps his masters idea? How does the change take place? When the apprentice is powerful enough, does he kill the master? or does the apprentice wait until the master dies naturally and then find the next? As I said...an intriguing tale waiting to be told...

Tycho
12-10-2001, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Perhaps an excerpt from the Episode 1 novelization can shed some light on things:





It bothers me that some of the EU has not been keeping consistent - or they can pretend history has been lost a little:

The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago. They were a cult given over to the dark side of the Force, embracing fully the concept that power denied was power wasted. A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith, a singular dissident in an order of harmonious followers, a rebel who understood from the beginning that the real power of the Force lay not in the light, but in the dark. Failing to gain approval for his beliefs from the Council, he had broken with the order, departing with his knowledge and his skills, swearing in secret that he could bring down those who had dismissed him.


This Sith's story has never been told. His order he initiated eventually took in Lord Kaan, but Kaan wasn't more than 50 years old at the most. That is 950 years after this Jedi broke with the Council.



He was alone at first, but others from the Jedi order who believed as he did and who had followed hin in his study of the dark side soon came over. Others were recruited, and soon the ranks of the Sith swelled to more than fifty in number. Disdaining the concepts of cooperation and consensus, relying on the belief that acquisition of power in any form lends strength and yields control, the Sith began to build their cult in opposition to the Jedi. Theirs was not an order created to serve; theirs was an order created to dominate.

Their war with the Jedi was vengeful and furious and ultimately doomed. The rogue Jedi who had founded the Sith order was its nominal leader, but his ambition excluded any sharing of power. His disciples began to conspire against him and each other almost from the beginning, so that the war they instigated was as much with each other as with the Jedi.


This describes the situation on Ruusan, but could refer to ANY part of the 1000 years war. And the Sith won over many more than 50 fully-trained deciples. There were thousands - and the almost defeated the Jedi to push them to offering power and glory as in such titles as "Lord Hoth (a Jedi Master)" and recruiting untrained children because it had gotten so bad.

Finally, Kaan shared power even though some conspired against him. He is not the strong leader they are referring to. (Note Bane came after Kaan - so it isn't Bane either)


In the end, the Sith destroyed themselves. They destroyed their leader first, then each other. What few survived the initial bloodbath were quickly dispatched by watchful Jedi. In a matter of only weeks, all of them died.

All but one.

This is true, but first the remaining Sith decided to regroup on Ruusan, but the Jedi followed them there. Kaan took command of the Sith, but Bane wouldn't follow him and believed the Sith should be achieving their goals differently.

The Sith who had survived when all of his fellows had died had understood that. He had adapted patience as a virtue when the others had forsaken it. He had adopted cunning, stealth, and subterfuge as the foundation of his way--old Jedi virtues the others had disdained. He stood aside while the Sith tore at each other like kriks and were destroyed. When the carnage was complete, he went into hiding, biding his time, waiting for his chance.

When it was believed all of the Sith were destroyed, he emerged from his concealment. At first he worked alone, but he was growing old and he was the last of his kind. Eventually, he went out in search of an apprentice. Finding one, he trained him to carry on their work. But there would only be two at any one time. There would be no repetition of the mistakes of the old order, no struggle between Siths warring for power within the cult. Their common enemy was the Jedi, not each other. It was for their war with the Jedi they must save themselves.


Bane seemed to have found his apprentice A GIRL, even before he left Ruusan. Zana (aka 'Rain') became the next Dark Lord of the Sith - a Sith witch of sorts I believe. At some point Bane went with her, or alone, to the Dxun moon of Onderaan to learn from what remained of artifacts left from Exar Kun and the Great Sith War, 2000 more years before his time....and the history goes back further than that, but it's not important for this discussion.


I have my doubts that any of this will have anything to do with the prequels, but at least I got the inconsistencies between the Ep 1 novelization and the rest of the EU straight. That they don't match exactly in the first place might be the best reason to offer the possibility that they are irrelevant. I just loved those stories and hated to see what Terry Brooks wrote discount what licensing allowed Darko Macan to establish. But Lucas wrote almost nothing, if anything, of any of that. So he might not even be aware it exists.

If you are interested in learning more about this, than I suggest the graphic novels named after the video games they compliment: Dark Forces (featuring Kyle Katarn), and the Jedi Vs. Sith 6-issue comic (featuring Darth Bane, Lord Kaan vs. Lord Hoth).

Rollo Tomassi
12-11-2001, 08:54 PM
My thoughts on The Jedi Purge:

I was wondering about the possibility of seeing any part of the Purge on screen. I've always strongly felt that it was better implied and not seen. It's difficult to hunt down 10,000 Jedi across the expanse of the galaxy. Then I realized that over the last two films their ranks may be sizbly dwindled.
1. The final battle in AOTC. We see a good number of Jedi meet their demise. Cetrtainly not in the range of 10,000, but quite a few. And this battle is the beginning of
2. The Clone Wars. With the Jedi at the forefront of this brutal conflict, it is implied that countless more are destroyed. The Academy can not train replacements fast enough and thus younger Jedi are being given the Rank of Jedi Knight (such as Anakin). Those who survive until the third Episode might meet their demise in
3. The Invasion of the Jedi Temple. A majority of the remaining Jedi are caught inside when Palpatine turns on them, including all the small initiates. A few of the higher profile Jedi (Plo Koon etc) will die trying to defend the temple, but ultimately fail.

4. The Hunting. The three previous scenarios drops the remaining Jedi on the run to a couple of hundred at the most. Easy enough for Vader and his troops to dispatch at their leisure. Especially with regular citizens turning Jedi in for Reward...

Apart from the fourth, all of these will be seen on screen (the second represented by the battle at the beginning) so the Jedi Purge WILL occur on screen for the most part...


My thoughts on Tarkin:

Something about Tycho's theory just doesn't sit right with me. It's not that I don't think it's a wonderful idea, but I get that little feeling in the back of my mind that says we aren't utilising Tarkin to his fullest potential. Some kind of intricate betrayal is involved I think. But what it is, I just don't know. Does Tarkin have some kind of connection to the Jedi? Is Tarkin the key to revealing Palpatine's treachery? Perhaps Tycho's theory is only one half of the final solution. It's the final piece of the puzzle, I just can't put my finger on it. Nnnnngggg:confused: What do you guys think?

graana
12-12-2001, 07:21 AM
OK, now I like the Tarkin character just as much as the next Star Wars fan......but really in the interests of the Saga as a whole, is it really nessasary to have Tarkin in the Prequels? I find it just as much, if not more interesting to have new characters. Remember, this is a galaxy we are talking about. Even though it does seem abit too close knit at times...............

bigbarada
12-12-2001, 09:31 AM
I believe that Tarkin actually has a place in the prequels, as does Mon Mothma and Captain Antilles. But I think George should have exercised more restraint in introducing OT characters into the prequel trilogy. For instance, Threepio and Artoo really had no purpose in Ep1 other than George just wanted them there. Their roles could have easily been filled with other equally capable droids. Now adding OT characters who actually have a purpose just seems overkill.

Rollo Tomassi
12-12-2001, 09:51 AM
I agree that Tarkin has an important role in Episode III. That's why Tycho's theory seems wrong to me. He's tossed in as the Confederate general just to be there. I think that's only part of it. Hmmmm....maybe I'm standing too close to the problem...:(

Omega Fett
12-12-2001, 06:30 PM
GNT
Jedi Master

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Sydney,Australia
Posts: 1724
Re: Mace's Death

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by oafy-wan
Maybe Boba kills Mace out of revenge for Jango. Perhaps Boba helps Anakin kill the Jedi and that's how they knew each other in "Empire". I know Boba is a little boy, but it is a shocking possibility.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I was thinking the same thing,

Jango finds Mace,Mace Fights Jango,Mace kills Jango,Boba finds Mace,Boba fights Mace,Boba Kills Mace,Han kills Boba

---------------------------------------

Uh Han didnt kill Boba,he simply knocked him into the sarlacc pit,if ur a hardcore boba fett fan like me,you would know he didnt die,he flew out of the pit via his jetpack and dropped a thermal detonater down its mouth killing it. he was burned horendously though do to the digestive acids of the sarlacc. Dengar and Neehlah found him and nursed him back to health and so on

^__^

Jargo
12-13-2001, 08:12 PM
Not in the movies he didn't. Which is the topic under discussion if you hadn't already noticed.........

I think the purge will be seen onscreen in some way. not the killing but the after effects. Similar to the sandcrawler and dead jawas or the two bodies smoking at the homestead. Enough to chill the soul but not enough to turn your stomach and spoil you viewing pleasure.

Tarkin has a place in the prequels. How did he get to be such a big cheese? it's easier to accept him in the whole story if you realise how important he is to the emperor.
As for Mon Mothma and Antilles, they should be seen but not play an active role as extras in the background somewhere around Bail Organa and his palace. it doesn't make sense to have the leaders of the rebellion as these characters if we never get mention of them at least beforehand somewhere to show their significance to the characters. I'm not suggesting whole yards of backstory or "have you met Mon Mothma, regional governer of chandrilla internal affairs..." sort of stuff. But just to know they were in the background lends some recognition factor when they play active roles later on. A glimpse of mon Mothma in a meeting on Alderaan then the next ime shes's seen she is the rebel leader. It makes sense that she's a leader if we know she was a leader beforehand. Otherwise she's just a boring chick with bad hair and a habit of trailing off in despair..........

Tycho
12-13-2001, 09:06 PM
Rollo, you are correct about Tarkin playing some kind of strategic betrayal hand in the prequels to establish his military expertise and earn him his big role Emperor Jargo accurately refers to. He becomes a Grand Moff, which at least sounds pretty impressive, even if Grand Moffs are only around the galaxy for a mere 18 years. I'm guessing that would still look impressive on a resume'.

But think about it, if Tarkin is Dooku's general for the Confederacy, but at the same time he's Palpatine's mole, when Dooku is killed in Episode 3 and all-of-the-sudden Tarken just surrenders the Confederacy, or leads them into a trap, plays ignorant of it, comes out the sympathetic hero for the Outer Rim, and gets to negotiate a treaty where he walks away with his own dignity - and a fancy new title - then Tarkin betrays the 'Rebels' - an all too familiar role for him, causing enemies of Palpatine to feel pain!

His EU history (almost soley Rogue Planet and Cloak of Deception) tell of him being the military defense leader and eventual governor of Eriadu, then a sector military overseer, finally using Trade Federation ships in his fleet. He is supposed to serve the Republic, but is in a position to break off with the men under his command, and serve local interests (the Confederacy on the Outer Rim). Meanwhile, it's still equally possible that Tarkin is in the Republic Navy loyal to Palpatine all along.

I agree there's not enough evidence to support my theory. I just fancy it would be cool, and CAN make sense if that's the card Lucas plays for Tarkin.

Rollo Tomassi
12-14-2001, 10:33 AM
Well, I think one of two scenarios are possible. Dooku knows that Tarkin is working for both he and Sidious at the same time. Or Dooku thinks Tarkin is loyal to HIM, but secretly he is working for Sidious/palpatine.
I guess my problem is that neither the Tarkin theories or the Mothma theories we've come up with are integral to the plot. They just seemed "tacked on" in order to have them in the story/movie.
I'm confident of the Jar Jar one because he A. inadvertantly helps Palpatine become Emperor, and B. Helps Padme and the others escape afterwards. His presence is justified.
Tarkin and Mothma seem to be in our version simply because they show up later in the saga. If that's the case, we'd need to show Dodonna, Ackbar, etc...which we don't. maybe it's just enough to have them as background "emerging characters" (as G. Lu likes to call them;) ) rather than being integral to the plot. Sort of all or nothing.
But if George is indeen courting gabriel Byrne to play Tarkin (as we suspect), he must have a bigger part. I don't know. If we could come up with different scenarios for Tarkin....

And on a Side Note, for fun I took all the different plot points we discussed and combined them into a definitive synopsis. All it was missing was a title...so I gave it one. Want to hear it? Well, let me hear your s first...:)

Tycho
12-14-2001, 11:50 AM
Epsisode Three: Roll 'Ot Tam Assassins?

(bad play on your screen name....)

The Tarkin theory:

1) Even if Gabriel Byrne plays him, he doesn't have to do more than Oliver Ford Davies did in Episode One.

2) Peter Cushing was great in E4, but he didn't do THAT much then either. Nor was he integral to the plot of ANH. Simply, Vader could NOT pull the trigger to end the existence of Alderaan, as it would ruin much more credibility towards any redemption Lucas planned for him later. Meanwhile Tarkin is screen-candy in either movie (though he is GREAT screen-candy).

3) Some background characters' pasts are good to see cameo's of, especially if they are important figures later - like Bail Organa who also isn't going to do THAT much even though Jimmy Smits is playing him. Mon Mothma is clearly important, but Admiral Ackbar is not. He was probably not Tarkin's slave even at the birth of the Empire, but rather still a Mon Calamari military officer (was that Ackbar's beginning - always in the military - or was he like a scientist or bontanist or something before and took command of the Mon Calamari fleet AFTER he escaped from Tarkin? It's all EU so it doesn't apply here anyway... -I'm just saying (appologetically to his fans) that Ackbar is not important in the prequels and Mon Calamari (the planet ) won't be seen anyway. Only it's sniveling Senators Tessk and Tiikes (if they aren't the same Quarren in the first place) will be there to represent Mon Calamari. I'm not certain if they have 2 delegations for both races, or if the Quarren won a lot of elections...

Meanwhile, other leaders: Jan Dadonna was an Imperial Star Destroyer commander (not necessary to see him in the prequels). General Reikeen was from Alderaan's defense force and would likely be "Saving Private Reikeen" back in those days ...(If Han Solo will be 7, Reikeen might be 17 - 21 in the prequels), and General Madine would be about as young in Corellia's defense force and also need not be seen (nor will Corellia in all likelihood - it looks like Los Angeles so wouldn't make a big screen impression). Piett and Veers would also be just starting their careers in the Republic's military (or their home planet's defense forces), and they would be unnecessary distractions. Same with Grand Admiral Thrawn (as if an EU character would be so lucky...)

Now SATE PESTAGE (Imperial Dignitary # 2) could have a speaking role. The Imperial Dignitaries' significance might be explained at last...

So Tarkin, Mon Mothma, Sate Pestage, Bail Organa - that's about enough.

No Ackbar, Dadonna, Madine, Reikeen, Veers, Piett, Motti, etc.

EU's Garm Bel Ibis (Corellian) has the best chance for ANY otherwise EU character as he is important in the Rebellion's birth.

I take back what I said about Dadonna, as it might be important to show that he was one of the first Destroyer captains to serve Palpatine, and later decided the Empire was immoral, so we see him show up again, on the Rebels' side. It's a stretch, but MAYBE.

bigbarada
12-14-2001, 01:36 PM
I don't think that GL will use EU as a reference for any characters in the prequels. If he needs a specific character to fulfill a specific role then he will just write up a new one himself and let the EU writers do damage control.

Tarkin: I think he plays a big role somehow in EP3. Leia initially referred to him as "Governor Tarkin," so maybe he is a civilian world leader who is frocked into military service just before Ep4.

Mon Mothma: I expect her to be introduced in the Senate or maybe have a small cameo when Padme goes into hiding on Alderaan.

General Dodonna: Since the idea of him as a Star Destroyer Commander is EU, then I expect to see him as a Leiutenant, Captain or maybe even a major fighting alongside Bail Organa. Rank in the military is not as easy to come by as everyone thinks and taking twenty years to go from Leiutenant to General is normal by the US military's standards. Although Dodonna also getting frocked after a major battle is not out of the question.

Captain Antilles: Wouldn't he be about Han's age in EP3? HE didn't really look that old.

My personal rules for anticipating possible plotlines:
1. Disregard all EU, because I know GL does.
2. This has to look good or interesting on screen, so long drawn out expositions and monologues are out of the question.
3. GL is the master of ambiguity. Did we get a description of Aurra Sing's past in Ep1 or even Boba Fett's in the OT? GL loves to put as little into the movie as possible about characters and their backgrounds. Did anyone even mention Mon Mothma's name in ROTJ? Or Wickets?
4. Disregard all EU!!

Rollo Tomassi
12-14-2001, 04:48 PM
I agree on the chance of seeing any EU characters in the films is slim to none.

Okay, Governors (or Moffs and grand Moffs) are the new political leaders in the NEW ORDER, so perhaps Tarkin is intoduced in that capacity after palpatine announces his Imperialship. Somebody (Obi Wan perhaps) recognizes Tarkin from the big battle in the first third of the movie and ties this together with Dooku's remarks, just a little extra clue to show how slimy Palaptine is before he reveals his sliminess and all the "little clues" become insignificant. I guess. I'm getting too frustrated over a tiny thing.

Where are your titles? bigb?

bigbarada
12-14-2001, 06:17 PM
Revenge of the Sith
Fall of the Jedi
The Death of Hope
Anakin Spanks His Evil Monkey
Tyranny Reborn
Whole Lotta Jedi Killin' Goin' On
The Fall of the Republic

Jedi Clint
12-14-2001, 06:42 PM
I've always liked:

Star Wars Episode III Dawn of an Empire

Rollo Tomassi
12-20-2001, 10:05 AM
Star Wars Episode III: The New Order

GNT
12-21-2001, 11:53 PM
Here are my titles:

Star Wars: Episode 3: Mace's Death
Star Wars: Episode 3: The New Twin Suns
Star Wars: Episode 3: A new Empire
Star Wars: Episode 3: I hope I make a come back - Maul

The Overlord Returns
12-29-2001, 03:17 PM
Just consider the fact that ep 3 will have a four letter title. This would follow with the OT, and what seems to be shaping up for the PT

The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Rise of the Empire
A New Hope
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi

so.....either Rise, or Birth, or dawn of the Empire would all make sense.

Tycho
12-30-2001, 06:44 AM
Thank you Overlord. That is some good reasoning. Now it'd be great if we got back to the E3 plot discussion at hand. This thread was the best on the whole forum - or any forum for that matter, but we digressed into this "name the movie" deal which ultimately proved the ground for dumping out a lot of people's silly name ideas.

I think 1 of 2 things should happen with this thread:

1) it should continue to be updated when new evidence for Episode 3's storyline becomes available or a new turn in the topic takes its course

or

2) it should be allowed to fall back into the archives (esentially die out) until we need it again.

I'd like new people who read this to be able to participate intelligently in this awesome thread if they'd like and not get into a bunch of title hollerings - there's a separate thread for that already - and it's mostly jokes (I did Back In Black and wrote out ACDC's new lyrics for Darth Vader). But it just doesn't feel right for this thread.

For option number 1, I thought of something else we didn't consider for E3 or even E2:

Obi-Wan: "He was the best STAR PILOT in the galaxy..."

and "When I first met him, your father was already a great pilot."

Statement #2 is true - Anakin was a great pod racer pilot but even at the end of Phantom, Obi-Wan with beginning to teach Anakin, must have realized he was an amateur who got lucky in the N-1 fighter he took from Naboo. 'That was the will of the Force' and his podracing reflexes helped him navigate the Trade Federation ship. But what he did hardly qualifies Jake's Anakin as a STAR PILOT.

So for Statement #1 - Hayden's Anakin must fly star fighter craft in combat. The yellow speeder chase car on Coruscant isn't a qualified Star Fighter either.... We are talking N-1's, TIE Fighters, and what else in Anakin / Vader's history? The Jedi Starfighter? Will Anakin be shown flying one? Not in E2 - it doesn't look that way anyway. Will he fly a Z-95 Headhunter (precursor to the X-wing?) Will he fly anything like a fighter craft on screen during the prequels? (as portrayed by Hayden Christensen)???

Now there's something new to talk about. If and when....

Obi-Don
12-30-2001, 06:56 AM
The podracer and the airtaxi are not like driving a car.I would think they are like flying because they do not limit themselfs to the ground.So in a certain point a view Anakin is a pilot. For a kid who never got any real training on how to fly,he is doing a good job.

Jargo
12-30-2001, 07:20 AM
I think what the others are saying Obi Don, is that flying pods and taxis doesn't require the same skills that flying a starfighter which traverses the deep space regions does. A pod or a taxi can be flown by luck and rough talent. But a starfighter requires immense skill and honed and refined instincts to pilot. Remember Han's words to Luke? " it aint like dusting crops kid" that's pretty much how this is. Anyone could learn to fly a crop duster but it takes intense training and skill to pilot fighter jet plane. and to pilot a space faring vessel, well look how much training the NASA pilots get.
Sure Anakin has raw talent but he doesn't really show himself to be a starpilot in the first two movies unless there's something we don't know yet. he does pilot a ship from Naboo to Tatooine though. Perhaps something happens in that journey to show his pilot skills to the max?

Obi-Don
12-30-2001, 09:35 AM
I agree with you on this.What I was getting at was his skill at a early age.If he could do what he did at his age and without training.He would be kicka$$ as a pliot with training.

Jargo
12-30-2001, 10:05 AM
Oh for sure - with training no doubts he will be a fine pilot. No wonder Obi-Wan is scared of Anakins piloting in the trailer clip... Obi says something like "how many times have I told you to stay away from the power couplings?" So obviously Obi is instructing Anakin at the time we see them in EP2. So to a large extent it's simply raw talent that Obi moulds into shape that makes him the best star pilot in the Galaxy. Either that or Obi Wan is an old fart with memory loss in ANH. :p

Jedi Clint
12-30-2001, 05:59 PM
Obi Wan gave Luke a total line of crap almost from beginning to end during their initial conversation in ANH. I am taking less and less of it for granted as the story of the PT is laid out before us. Kenobi (and the galaxy) needed Luke to follow him to Alderaan. There would be no time for him to approach Luke under the ideal circumstances, teach him of his past, and then take him to Yoda where his training would be completed. He could sense Luke's frustration with Owen, and knew he better come up with a yarn that would push Luke to follow in his "wonderful" father's foot-steps, "avenge his death", and fulfill his dreams of adventure amongst the stars. Keep that in mind when basing speculation on what Kenobi told Luke during their initial conversation.

Jargo
12-30-2001, 07:04 PM
It makes you wonder about the line "and he was a good friend, a good friend..." From the looks of things they weren't that close really. Well maybe George wants us to think they are but they don't seem that close to me. More like a younger/older brother relationship. Obi forever scolding Anakin for doing his own thing and not heeding the tutelege of his master. Anakin just whining about being the best there ever was and how the jedi order is old and fusty and there has to be a better way of doing things. Stamping his feet like a spoiled kid. maybe Obi just gets completely fed up with Anakin and pushes him into the lava to shut him up....... :rolleyes:

Okay, serious now :)

Sure Obi spun Luke a line. How else would a crazy old wizard get offworld unless he got the help of an eager but gullible kid with good eyes and a strong healthy mind he could mould how he saw fit.
Obi must have tried the same on Anakin when he first started to train him but quickly realised how willful Anakin was. Instead of Obi just spouting the Jedi mantra at a dull and doughfaced padawan learner, he discovered that he had a bright spark who was going to be a great jedi Knight. Obi siezed upon the challenge of teaching Anakin and taming the wildness. Rather that than sit for hours with a dullard as the other Jedi did.
In time both Obi and Anakin grew to know each other well and were able to predict the others mood or movements and act accordingly on their missions. They became a double act or a team. Anakin could learn faster than Obi could teach and this lead to arguments. Obi could placate Anakin for short spaces of time but he could never tame him.Anakin outgrew Obi.
They were never friends but were indeed close. Close as any two people who spend a lot of time together can be. A working relationship that really worked.
by the time we see Obi in ANH his regrets and remorse for what he did to Anakin have consumed his memories. His comment about Anakin being a good friend may only refer to the way Anakin was faithful as a padawan and came to Obi's rescue on Geonosis. One 'exciting' incident is enough to give someone call to assert that a person is a friend, is it not?
Maybe Obi concentrates on Anakin the adventurous father of Luke rather than his Mother the equally adventurous Padme because he doesn't want Luke asking awkward questions about his Mother. Where she ended up for instance and what happened to her. If Obi could have prevented something awful happening to both of them and didn't then his story is totally shameful and Obi would then be a figure of derision in this saga. Man that would be too much if Obi caused Padme to die somehow. true greek tragedy story telling..... :cry:

chewie
12-30-2001, 08:00 PM
During the ten years between epI and II, how could a kid no older than Anakin not become a friend of sorts to a person who is basically a full-time teacher/mentor? IMO, Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship may have become more like father and son. And as most teens get, they want to get away from their parents as soon as they're big enough, but still for the most part love them. Anakin, of course, is a much more troubled teen than most, so this plays into him growing apart from Obi-Wan as angrily/violently as it ends up.

And as for Obi-Wan telling Luke that his father was already a great pilot when he first met him, the only evidence of that was his flying into/destroying the droid control ship. While that wasn't exactly piloting skill, and definitely not "great", for a kid to do what even trained adults couldn't do (destroy the control ship) I assume would seem amazing to those around Anakin. Considering that Anakin is so powerful in the force anyway, all things in the physical world would be easy tasks, as it doesn't require much effort to do something with the force aiding your movements. So Anakin could be considered great in all things even without having to actually ever do it.

Tycho
12-31-2001, 12:42 AM
Well, this thread has been rejuvenated!

First I'm not going to quote or repeat what anyone said, but I am going to refer to a lot of it, so backtrack to my last post and refer to what people said after that...

I strongly agree with what Emperor Jargo said about a starfighter pilot skills. But as far as the TWO flights we know Anakin makes in Episode 2, neither are in starfighters that we're aware of. From Naboo to Tatooine, and then from Tatooine to Geonosis will be in the light courrier vehicle the new Queen of Naboo lends to her Senator Padme. Anakin may have to contend with asteroids or droid fighters as Obi-Wan and Jango do in their chase - but what would be the point of doing that twice in the same movie? If Anakin is a better pilot than Obi-Wan, but the latter can do that while also engaging in a running fire-fight with Fett, of course the padawan can imitate the master... and again, Anakin's ship does not appear to be a starfighter. I think it is the ship we see approaching Geonosis in the BREATHING trailer. Not too exciting looking - and possibly Republic-made, not necessarily Naboo.

Jedi Clint - you're back with your famous "Obi-Wan is a liar" saga. It does prove to be true in a lot of "points of view," doesn't it?Just for you Hasbro is going to make a Deluxe Figure of Obi-Wan with a home polygraph test. Your words do make sense, but when considering Anakin's character as it has already been established by Jake, I think it's fair to assume he really is a great starfighter pilot by now. He'd be extremely diligent in that aspect of his training. But yeah, who knows what else Obi-Wan lies about?

Back to Jargo and Chewie too now, I think there was a point being made in Phantom that Obi-Wan was not ready in the eyes of the Council. They would decide when he should take his trials and evidently not in the middle of the Trade Federation crisis. So Obi-Wan's being elevated to Knighthood because he reached to the Force and defeated the Dark Side in the form of an actual Sith Lord, was not in the Council's eyes the same thing as saying he was old enough to responsibly train a Padawan. That being said, I don't think Anakin ever sees Obi-Wan as a father-figure. The Older Brother role that Jargo describes is dead-on. The same goes in reverse for Obi-Wan's viewpoint of Anakin, though there's possibly always some underlying resentment that "this is the kid Qui-Gon dumped on me - and now he's my responsability." I think that Qui-Gon's being looked at as the father-figure of two sometimes rivalrous siblings is much more the reality, here. Let me be very clear that I do not mean Qui-Gon was Anakin's natural father - let's not even go there. We know he wasn't.

Lastly: Chewie, I completely agree with you about Anakin giving himself to the Force. It's a little like gambling - you do what you feel is right (hit or stay in blackjack, etc.) However, I think he actually will have to do some piloting stuff in a combat starfighter at some point to justify his character - even moreso than to coincide with what Obi-Wan says. Something will parallel Darth Vader getting into his personal fightercraft (and enjoying it) while flying combat missions when he is supposed to be a Sith OVERLORD and tell ing someone else to go shoot down some hillbilly rebels riding their T-65's.

Obi-Don
01-01-2002, 01:09 AM
Something else I was wondering. Maybe Obi-Wan might not have been ready to take on someone to train. He just became a Jedi Knight and bang,he has a padawan. Would it not be hard to teach someone to stand on thier own when you haven't had much time youself to stand by yourself. I guess what I'm tring to say is.I know Obi has the training but I don't think he had the experience on being a jedi knight without a master to guide him. Does any of this making any sence to any of you? Maybe some of you more enlighted people who can express youself better can add to this.

Jedi Clint
01-01-2002, 01:20 AM
I think ya did just fine! I agree, it probably wasn't the ideal conditions in which to take on an padawan.

Rollo Tomassi
01-01-2002, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
I think ya did just fine! I agree, it probably wasn't the ideal conditions in which to take on an padawan.


And, considering the final fates of all involved, I think we can say he didn't do a very good job. His padawan fell to the Dark Side and wiped out the entire Jedi Order. So all we are speculating on is HOW and WHY he failed.

Anakin as a Star Pilot: The Clone wars have been going on for a couple years now. Plenty of time for Anakin to become a great pilot. Even if we don't see it in the movie, there is plenty opportunity to make a reference to his several victorious space battles either during the beginning invasion or during the victroy celebration on Coruscant afterwards. Perhaps Anakin leads a squadron of fighters in the beginning of the film and meets up with Obi Wan later in the invasion?

Anakin as a Friend: Being raised from age 9 to age 19 by pretty much the only Father figure you have ever had (Watto?! I don't think so) would make any two people extremely close. Then being thrust into dangerous situations repeatedly with that same person would bring the bond even closer. Look at the men who fought in WWII talking about laying their lives down for their comrades. That's friendship. I think Anakin and Obi Wan have definitely reached that point even if they bicker alot. That's what will make their BATTLE in E III that much more devastating and emotional. I hope G. Lu has the directing chops to pull it off.

Tycho
01-01-2002, 03:08 PM
Well, I think the question is whether we WILL see Anakin fly a fighter in the movie.

We've pretty much worked out the entire plot up above (in this thread), so it's really a matter of figuring out where Anakin's fighter-flying fits in.

I agree with everything said about the Kenobi relationship said so far, except that I think Anakin views him as an older brother, not a father, so it complicates things with his arrogance because he sees Obi-Wan as a peer he can compete with. That is different from most people's relationships they have with their fathers - and part of the problem "Damn Obi-Wan! He's holding me back! Someday I will be the most powerful Jedi ever!"

Jargo
01-01-2002, 08:14 PM
going back to the original story that George layed out for the saga, speculating that Obi and Anakin have some kind of fight on a planet with volcanic activity, perhaps Anakin is already in two minds about the Jedi order at the start of EP3 and is being actively groomed by Palpatine as a favourite and 'one to watch'. maybe Anakin and Obi are together on a mission and Anakin starts to show of in his fighter. fancy death defying manouvres that irritate Obi. Obi orders Anakin to land and they do. they argue about this dangerous stunt flying that could have risked both their lives. Anakin annoys Obi so much that Obi tells Anakin what he really thinks of him. Anakin retaliates by igniting his saber in a hissy fit. Obi counters by igniting his, Stand off situation. Anakin still angry at Obi blocking his move begins to attack Obi verbally and physically and Obi is forced to defend himself. The fight leads both to an enormous craters edge, it isn't certain if either will go over the edge into the lava far below, Anakins over confidence is the end of him as Obi lunges with a blow that knocks Anakin off balance and he slips into the crater. Obi tries to grab his arm but Anakin slips further away and then as Obi watches helpless, Anakin falls prey to the lava......
Obi full of sadness and remorse picks up Anakins dropped saber and turns it over in his hands, then heads back to the fighter and leaves the planet.
Anakin meanwhile had fallen down into the lava flow but was not engulfed by it merely burned where he fell by the incredible heat. (his charred figure looks something like the charred pilot in the english patient) he manages to haul himself out of harms way and collapses on the ground that forms the wall of the crater. he appears dead...

Jedi Clint
01-01-2002, 08:56 PM
I remember reading a passage from the ROTJ novel that seemed to indicate that Kenobi and Anakin had time apart before their duel. Too lazy to look it up right now, but he seeks out Anakin to bring him back to the good side, and their meeting ends in the duel that transforms Anakin into Vader.

Obi-Don
01-02-2002, 01:01 AM
It will be a sad day to watch Obi-Wan and Anakin fight,but we all know it has to happen.

Rollo Tomassi
01-02-2002, 08:50 AM
Jargo brings up another debate. Planet with unstable volcanic activity? Or the bowels of Coruscant near some industrial sized smelter full of molten steel? Despite old story notes and what not I've always favored the latter. I've never considered that "THE BATTLE" wouldn't take place anywhere but on Coruscant.

Jedi Clint
01-02-2002, 09:33 AM
"The Emperor is coming here!!"

If the location of the duel were on Coruscant (which I think is very possible) it opens up the possibility for Palpatine to become involved in the conflict between Kenobi and Skywalker. I don't think Palpatine will leave Coruscant in the PT. This is why the officer Vader informs of Palp's immanent arrival upon the Death Star seems so shocked.

Tycho
01-02-2002, 12:00 PM
Right you are Jedi Clint and Rollo Tomassi.

Did either of you go to the Smithsonian's touring Star Wars exhibit: The Magic of the Myth?

They had Ralph McQuarrie production art there including stuff that was never used in the movies - things like Kashyyyk which made it into the Holiday Special. Lucas has a love of that stuff and a tendancy to use it. Some of the layouts for Geonosis echo Raplh's earlier designs for Echo Base, minus Hoth's snow of course.

But Ralph had these lava pools deep underground, and rocky islands in them, forming a sort of natural bridge to a central thrown - with Darth Sidious sitting in the center of it all. This is likely beneathe the darkest levels of Coruscant - a planet of corruption, beneath its lowest pit of evil! This is where the duel will take place as Obi-Wan and Anakin learn the truth about their destinies. As a prisoner or "guest" of Palpatine, Padme (or a handmaiden who is killed and believed to be Padme - even by Anakin for the brief moment he has to deal with it) may be there and "die" there. In fact, maybe it is only staged so Anakin will finally vent (though Ertae or Sabe or whoever does actually die), but that's all Sidious wants to accomplish: turning apprentice against his Jedi Master. Later "Darth Vader" does learn that his wife (or mate) actually survived, and uses his new power and authority granted him by "The Empire" to order ex-Confederate Bounty Hunter Boba Fett to track her down (with Mace Windu) and bring them back alive, "No disintegrations." But alas, like everything else Anakin tries to exert his power over, the mission fails - go back to Rollo Tomassi's beginning posts on this thread for the details.

But the fight is on Coruscant!

Oh - this is getting so good. I hate having to wait 3 years and 5 months to see it! Attack of the Clones will only be a mere distraction now until we get to the heart of the REAL story! LOL

Don't you think Episode 3 could be your favorite movie of the whole saga?

Jargo
01-02-2002, 02:12 PM
for viewing and story telling and the battle that we've all been waiting for - oh yes! for aliens and droids, no. AOTC is better for me in the respect that I got into star wars because of my love of the space technology and the weird aliens. So most of me wants to see that all the time. But the adult part of me wants closure. I've been dreaming about that Obi/Anakin battle since I was a kid and first heard of it. I've got it in my blood to see the sparks fly and the anger drench the screen. The pathos that will be exuded in that one scene is more than the entire saga put together. how could it not be? The whole idea of the scene is inclusive of every emotion going from the love of a woman to the betrayal of a friend and the angst of death and remorse. Hayden and Ewan will be acting their litle socks off while Ian McDiarmid camps it up in the background as he did in the final duel. That's going to make for some electric viewing. hairs standing up on the back of the neck job I think.

I agree that the battle could feasibly happen on Coruscant in the bowels of the city. It just doesn't hurt to remind ourselves of the genesis of the story segment. It just depends whether George goes retro in a nineteen thirties serial style with a cliff top battle and a peril below, or instead go for something like Alien III with the smelting plant or terminator II.... oh, that's been done to death. Maybe he'll go for the lava lake battle underground then, like that comic book story where Vader faces Maul..... oh. :(

Everyone keps stealing the good ideas from under Georges fingers! How dare they....!!!!:frus: :p

Rollo Tomassi
01-03-2002, 01:28 PM
As Jargo states, we've all been waiting for the ObiWan /Anakin Battle since we were wee tykes. Is it possible for whatever happens on screen to even remotely, possibly live up to the twenty year long expectations weve constructed in our imaginations? And does George "I'm not an actor's director" Lucas have the wherewithal to produce the pinnacle emotional scene in the Star Wars saga from his cast? I've said this earlier in this thread...I don't want to grow too attached to this synopsis we are creating here because I don't want to be let down when the final poduct hits the screen and it's nothing like what I imagined. The same goes for the the big scene where Anakin drops into a big vat of cheese. I'm afraid I will be severely let down...

evenflow
01-04-2002, 10:01 AM
Back to th whole Mace thing. I still like the idea of him turning of the Jedi Council and killing them all except for Yoda who then kills him. Just a thought.

Rollo Tomassi
01-04-2002, 11:11 AM
I think there is going to be plenty of betrayal in Episode III already without throwing a renegade Windu into the mix. Plus, it would complicate the "evil" factor if you had Sidious, Dooku, Anakin, and Fett, and throw Windu in on top of it. Ever heard the saying, too many cooks in the kitchen spoils the broth? Well, too many villians spoils the movie. I give you the atrocious Batman sequels where they insist on two or more villians every time. Also, we've got this great set-up between Windu and Fett in Episode II. It just wouldn't pay off if they ended up on the same side. BUT...

...a CLONE of Mace Windu infiltrating the council and destroying them before Yoda whips out his tiny li'l lightsaber and turns "bad arse muther father" into mayonaisse and mustard is an intriguing possibilit...WHAT AM I SAYING?!?...thats a silly notion. Almost as silly as Sidious having anything to do with Shmi's death.

Nope. I stand by my original theory in the posts above. BTW, as of the hundredth post or so, I am going to condense all the theories down into an easy to read single post so as not to have to click back and forth thru all the old pages.

Darth Evil
01-04-2002, 12:39 PM
I doubt Mace'll turn on the Council, he seems too good in TPM, but it would be a good twist.

Tycho
01-04-2002, 10:56 PM
I agree with Rollo Tomassi (no big surprise by now) - but Mace is not going to turn bad, and it would NOT be cool if he did. It's a superfluous plot element.

That Dooku was Qui-Gon's master and he turned bad is plenty of betrayal inside the Jedi Council (or their high ranks). I take it Dooku may have once served on the Jedi Council (that doesn't matter either).

But Mace is a good-guy and his set-up to die a destiny with Boba Fett is more than awesome material that I can't wait to see pan out.




p.s. - Rollo, if you sumarize this plot line - well, I appreciate what you are undertaking. Much thanks. And if you don't (and it's all here anyway) - I won't blame you. A very time consuming task. But so many of us, Jedi Clint, Jargo, and all of you who deserve credit too, have contributed so much to this thread, that it is a collaborative effort now, with new details hidden in every post. Summarizing every Han Solo or Tarkin Tangent will be more than a fair share of work. Good luck. (and please keep it in this Thread - that'd be my request - as all the old debates about why or why-not we'd see something are here - so it's more than just the plot - it's the evidence!).

Co Jo-Da
01-18-2002, 01:34 PM
Attack of the Clones is rumored to end with only 4 Council Members left (Mace Windu, Yoda, Plo Koon and Ki-Adi-Mundi). From here I think Palpatine will put out a hit for the remaining Jedi Masters and every Bounty Hunter in the galaxy will take the challenge. Boba Fett will take the time to single out Mace and avenge his fathers death. Mace might be the only Jedi Master to fall to a Bounty Hunter, leaving the Emperor's new right hand (Anakin) to crash what is left...

Sounds really good to me...

Tycho
01-23-2002, 04:49 AM
I think Zam Wessel now figures into this.

I started by talking with my friend Doug about the new Slave-1 TOY.

Why does the cockpit hold 3 (three) figures? It is an Episode 2 toy and we aren't getting into specifics about Slave-One's use in E3 here, so I am going to have to look at the 3 seats clue as something we can go about examining from the Episode 2 spoiler perspective. Don't worry - it will tie in to E3 in a moment.

Let's also ignore the simple fact that Slave-One's EU history has mentioned it's a 3-seater (Dengar, Neelah, and Boba Fett in the Bounty Hunter War books - well I don't think Hasbro knows or cares - so it's not applicable in all probability).

That leaves E2 - and no one we know of joins Jango and Boba in the ship during the movie. Right?

What about off-screen and Jango's ties to Zam Wessel in the comics that are being leaked out? Does the latest EU actually apply? Was Zam Wessel also having adventures in Slave - One before the AOTC movie?

I think that Zam and Jango are lovers. They are assigned together to assasinate Padme, and Zam uses her droid to make the kill with those poison bugs, or whatever. Obi-Wan and Anakin foil this, and eventually Obi-Wan slices off her arm and manages to halt and capture Zam in (or near) the nightclub.

Faced with the fact that she failed, is pretty severely wounded and in pain, and susceptable to Jedi forced-mind probes, Jango has no choice but to kill Zam with the Kyber Dart because she'd spill everything under Obi-Wan's kind of interrogation. Jango denies Kenobi his prize, but pays a huge personal price for it.

I don't know for sure if Boba Fett is Jango's natural son or a clone. The son issue is true from any point of view, when interpretted that way. But the clone issue makes more sense and doesn't leave us asking "Who was Boba Fett's mother?"

However, I think that young Fett has taken to Zam Wessel and hopes to sort of adopt her as a mother. Jango it is being revealed (in the comics - but suspiciously being authorized by Lucas before the film debuts - granting it be taken seriously) - well Jango is revealed to have been a farmer who left home to train with Mandalorian Warriors to seek out and find some excitement. He fell in with mercenaries and worked doing assasinations or something along the lines of bounty hunting until he met Zam Wessel - either as a competitor, or some other way. But the two fell in love. Then when Dooku or the Kaminoans make him the offer for his DNA - he gets the chance to adopt a son. In the script he says to Obi-Wan in their apartment scene (at the Fett's in a non-combat scene) - that "He's just a simple man trying to make a living." A simple man doesn't leave the family farm and earn the right to join the Mandalorian Warriors... But I think Jango is telling Obi-Wan what he wants to become.

I think Jango has got it in his head to do this one last job and then have enough money to retire and live a normal life and raise a family. He's shared this with his "son," and Boba Fett wants Zam to be his mom. It's the cute thing Lucas would have a kid want to do. And it makes a big statement about family values - a theme in Star Wars with what will happen next.

Jango won't want to tell Boba that he shot Zam himself. He will bear a terrible guilt but not be able to come forth with that and face his son. Instead he will tell the kid that it was the Jedi's fault. Indirectly, he already rationalized this when he shot her.

So when Mace finishes Jango - Little Boba Fett will blame the Jedi for wiping out his entire family! In his eyes, they killed his mother and his father! He will know rage the same as Anakin - something Vader might eventually have a soft-spot for (if he knows this information about Fett at all).

Beast
01-23-2002, 04:59 AM
Ooo Tycho, I love you theroy and think it fits perfectly in the context of the story. From what Ive read, and pieced together myself I think you may be very very close to what happens. It also fits in perfectly with what little official cannon we have in regards to Boba Fett.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Co Jo-Da
01-24-2002, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
So when Mace finishes Jango - Little Boba Fett will blame the Jedi for wiping out his entire family! In his eyes, they killed his mother and his father! He will know rage the same as Anakin - something Vader might eventually have a soft-spot for (if he knows this information about Fett at all).

So right on, Tycho... I hope this pans out on screne...

Rollo Tomassi
01-24-2002, 11:39 AM
It's an interesting theory, and I have no reason to doubt it's veracity (while I think it's a little contrived, but what in the STar Wars Galaxy isn't? I like it in theory a lot better than Anakin building 3PO...) but how much of this back story will be told in the actual movie? I don't think G. Lu and the other filmmakers will have enough time in a two hour movie to fully flesh out the intricacies of Boba Fett's reasoning behind his hatred of the Jedi. Besides, isn't Mace hacking his father's head off enough reason to hate the Jedi? Jango being forced to kill his mate is an interesting moral side story, but it isn't really necassary to the development of the main plot which is Anakin's fall and the rise of the New Order. And since you only have a finite amount of time to devote to said story (between the next two movies, about 5 hours) this little theory will have to drop by the wayside. Especially since Zam's onscreen presence is so miniscule.

I think this theory, much like the Han Solo is a clone theory would be much better suited to EU exploration. And there will be plenty of oppurtunity to fill in the next twenty years of SW history with novels and comics about both Solo AND Fett.

Darth Ovori
01-25-2002, 10:39 AM
Maybe that brown cloak Boba carries in Empire and Jedi belong to his biggest trophy... Mace... ???

Tycho
01-25-2002, 12:11 PM
Good thought. Maybe.

We do believe Mace gives himself to the Force, versus a 16-18 year old slaying a Jedi Master. If that happens, Mace "disintegrates." The robes would be all that's left.

However, some figures of Fett have a stripe on the bottom of the cloak. More similar to Qui-Gon's poncho, (or Luke's for that matter). Maybe the poncho is similar to the one Anakin wears on the freighter? Maybe Mace wears a disguise?

Keep in mind that Hasbro has not always been authentic, and from movie to movie, depending upon prop and costume research, there might be variations in Jeremy Bulloch's actual costume (there were obvious ones in between ESB and ROTJ).

For all we know it could be his father's favorite bathrobe. But in keeping with Fett's character, he seems to wear trophies taken from his blood-feud kills.

You could definitely be on to something. Good thinking.

Tycho
01-30-2002, 02:05 PM
One of the things we have never brought about is how or why Anakin exists.

The next addition to our theory (by me) has a problem from the start - it does not explain Anakin's high midichlorian count. I'll need your help there, as well as your opinion on this:

COUNT DOOKU is ANAKIN'S FATHER.

Most of us hate the immaculate conception theory anyway. This is not to offend the religious here, but this will tie-in to modern earth religions. As it directly relates to Star Wars, skeptics suspect lies and only half-truths are being told by one parent, at least. Lies being said by the mother in the prequel's case.

This being said, that Lucas repeats themes is also important and I will denote it with (L.R.T.) or Lucas repeating themes.

Remember, Qui-Gon was Count Dooku's apprentice. (Dooku might've had another Jedi name before - maybe not - or maybe it was "Obi-Dookie-Kahnookie" for all we know - yeah laugh it up, the rest of this post is serious.)

At some point 9 years before the trilogy, Dooku was on a mission and got together with Shmi.

9 years before the trilogy Obi-Wan was 15 years old, and already training with Qui-Gon, so Dooku either had no padawan at this time, or not, but Qui-Gon was already a Jedi Master in his own right. He would not have been with Dooku when 'the count' met Shmi Skywalker. Perhaps they fell in love when he was investigating pirates and she was eventually taken captive. Maybe she believed him dead, maybe just a dead-beat dad. We don't know. Maybe they covered it up because as a Jedi Dooku could not marry or have children.

Ah-ha. Like Father, Like Son. (LRT) Anakin and Padme? Uh-huh.

However, Dooku would have loved her (we assume, as the temptation was great enough for him to break his Jedi vows - LRT)
This would distress him with the Jedi Code. He was already a likely rules-breaker, as his padawan Qui-Gon turned out just like he did (Like "Father, Like Son" in a way with Master-Apprentice relationship applied here instead, LRT).

Dooku should have known she was pregnant, so he was sending her away (to hide her and Anakin from the Jedi) when Shmi was captured by pirates. The name Skywalker is so very contrived sounding next to "Organa, Antilles, etc" that maybe they were "named as such" as an alias because they were forever banished to living in hiding amongst the stars so the Jedi would not find out about them, always walking across the sky. ("That name no longer has any meaning for me!" -Darth Vader, ROTJ, to HIS son. This was also a reason Anakin learned to resent the Jedi, and disclaim that name. Vader no longer has to run.)

In any case, I think Dooku loved her, and also opened up to her. He might have told her he once trained "a better Jedi than himself" - Qui-Gon. This explains why Shmi let her only son take off with him. She ALREADY KNEW WHO QUI-GON JINN was - even though they had never met personally.

But Qui-Gon has no idea who Shmi is - he was no longer with his former master, but the boy is familiar to him in the Force. Why? He senses something familiar about the boy but cannot place it and has no reason to connect it with Dooku.

Dooku might be a Jedi Master with incredibly high midi-counts hiself though.

But Shmi lets Qui-Gon take her son. "He can help you. He was MEANT to help you." She knows.

In Shmi's death scene, she will explain all this to Anakin, and she'll die in his arms, telling her son the truth. "Noooo! - a different, but parallel scene to Vader telling Luke the truth in ESB. LRT. She may not name Dooku personally as the father, or give his other name (no not Darth Tyranus), but then Dooku will have the benefit of the surprise when he lays it on Anakin possibly (LRT).

In any case, we figure that Anakin will kill Dooku and replace him as Darth Sidious' apprentice "Now strike [your father down] and take his place at my side." - almost religious in the sense that you disobey the Heavenly Father and join the Devil himself. Christ being tempted to turn on God, and join with Satan. Jesus was a good man, but were he to know he was a bastard child, and kept the secret to protect his mother, would he turn on who he thought was his father, to avenge the pain and suffering of his mother? The lie would have no use if Mary were in danger (as terrible things happen to Shmi Skywalker?) LRT - from ROTJ, but also back to Biblical and mythological themes that Lucas also uses.

Meanwhile, I don't believe that Palpatine knew Dooku had a child. Things with kids, with the next generation, never go "exactly as [he] has forseen." His apprentices keep having children (pro-creation is a Force in nature, and the using the Dark Side, or anti-life, is going against nature. But life asserts itself beyond those that try to deny or warp its nature [with the Dark Side of the Force] Remember "Life creates it. Makes it grow." - Master Yoda. (or listen to Malcom's chaos theory in Jurassic Park 1)

But first, Dooku becomes aware of Anakin at some point, when his former padawan comes back from his Trade Federation mission via Tatooine - with none other than a boy named Skywalker. The Council knows more than they are letting on. Dooku might've already consulted Qui-Gon on the "Prophesy" which was not taken as seriously by the other Jedi because it could have been something Dooku - with high midichlorians of his own - might've been telling around like he was some kind of truth-seer (like Miss Cleo, LOL). But it was all in order that someone he trusted, his own padawan, would look after his son were something to happen to him. Qui-Gon would have contact with his former Master at times during the 9 years after Anakin was born. Dooku just told him about the prophesy, not his baby.

In fact, Aurra Sing might've been assigned on Tatooine to have something to do with this. Recruited by any number of players in this game - but not Palpatine. (I don't think). She might'be been there as added protection (but I'll come back to that in a minute).

Meanwhile, the Council rejects training Anakin, and he is left in Qui-Gon's protection (until what? Qui-Gon can return him to his mother? If Anakin is Force-sensitive, he can't live with Qui-Gon and not be trained? He's curious and would experiment anyway. In EU, the Master might've passed the kid off to Didi and Astri Oddo, but then he'd still be close to where Qui-Gon and Dooku could keep an eye on him. [Qui-Gon does not know Anakin is Dooku's son, but something about Anakin feels right and familiar, and Qui-Gon made a personal pledge to Shmi. "I will look out for him.] But Dooku's mistake (having a son and covering it up) gets his own former padawan killed (in a manner of speaking) - if he feels guilty about this at all. And it's possible that Dooku (as a secret Sith, even trained Darth Maul, who killed Qui-Gon, also one of Dooku's). Or, if Dooku is being black-mailed because Palpatine found out he had a son, Dooku's plan to deal with the Sith secretly is already turning sour, because his other love in life (presumably) - Qui-Gon - was murdered by the Sith!

Anakin returns as the Padawan of Obi-Wan Kenobi, and DOOKU leaves the Jedi Order. This is no coincidence. You'd think Palpatine would still want an inside-man? But Anakin changes all this and it's not safe for Dooku to stay there anymore.

1) if he is already in with the Sith from the start, because he resents the Jedi because they were the reason he had to hide his family and possibly why he feared he'd lossed them - to pirates (if he didn't know Shmi's fate before TPM) LRT like with Anakin and Padme, as well as Like father- Like son). And of course Dooku doesn't want anyone to test him for parentage, or he doesn't want to get close to his own son, as he knows all the Jedi are slated for extermination. Maybe Sidious says he'll "gaurantee Anakin protection" in the New Order? I don't know, but Dooku becomes useful elsewhere in the next phase of Palpatine's plan, which it was becoming time for anyway (once Palpy was elected Chancellor).

or

2) Palpatine makes the connection that a Jedi Master has a son, and uses this to black-mail someone (Dooku) who is already disgruntled with the Jedi, into joining him (because the Sith have more enlightened ways) and Dooku can punish those who made him sacrafice his wife and child. Aurra Sing might've been hired by Palpatine through dark channels to keep Anakin in sight for termination if Dooku rebelled, OR Dooku might've hired her as a fellow-Jedi drop-out, to PROTECT Anakin. Sing might yet have an appearence in Episode 2... for something to do with these reasons. If Anakin knew of Sing's mission -even to protect him, she failed to protect Shmi, and Anakin might terminate her for it. Or Aurra Sing's job ended when Qui-Gon took over Anakin's protection. Or the Tuskens and a colony war zone were just too much for Sing to protect Shmi in, and she wasn't paid for that, OR to lose her anonymity. [Keep in mind that Jedi do not have a lot of money, and as an Ex-Jedi, Dooku would need to reestablish himself well, if he were to be able to continue to afford Aurra Sing's fees. ] In any case, Anakin would be ****$ed if he ever knew about her mission, etc.

Oh - think about one EU fact: Aurra Sing was the Dark Woman's padawan. The Dark Woman is about the right age to have been "in Dooku's high school class." Friends? So could this be a favor for one Jedi she doesn't have a problem with - a friend of her former master's? A bribe from Dooku who promises her redemption or power in his new regime? Or is she there to kill them (and she fatally wounds Shmi who the Tuskens have not managed to kill, Before she gets her death scene with Anakin and tells her son everything). So maybe Sing is there to take revenge on Dooku, too - further complicating his mistakes and keeping him allied to the Dark Side.

I'm reaching there. But Sing was shown at the Pod Race to what I'd finally dismissed as just marketing ploys for LFL to sell action figures and books, etc. But if Michonne did shoot secret scenes, they could be pickups done with only Hayden and Pernilla, and some Tusken extras, even possibly shot in the Desert on a day's drive from Skywalker Ranch. Uh-huh... (like they shot Sebastian Shaws scenes in secret).

Meanwhile, if Dooku is already a Sith because he turned against the Jedi for his cause for love (just like Anakin), Dooku can no longer stay with the Jedi because his son is there. What does he tell Palpatine (who is already concerned because a 9 year old kid is becoming a threat to him when he destroyed a Trade Federation battleship single-handedly? [no one but Anakin really knows it was an accident]. So Dooku tells him everything or Palpatine's spies find out and then the future Emperor is seen saying "We will be watching your career with great interest."

Or Palpatine already knows all of this and is black-mailing Dooku with it. The Sith philosophy is that the Jedi's own self-imposed limitations will bring about their downfall, and he loves to pick off the weak Jedi who are already bringing about their own downfall.

Now wehave the son of a powerful Jedi like Dooku - with higher midichlorians than average - "Even Master Yoda doesn't have a midichlorian count this high." / "No Jedi does." Well, duh - that's because Jedi aren't allowed to have children, further causing natural selection to make more and more powerful Jedi - a threat to turn to the Dark Side and be unstoppable. Hence the Jedi's "no children rule" - but what they feared most is exactly what happened! (Vader). There were good reasons to follow the rules, but it all started when Dooku didn't.

But this also explains why in E2 Dooku is able to forsee moves by Anakin and Obi-Wan and defeat them both. He was their master's master and taught those moves to Qui-Gon. He has more midis than Obi-Wan, and enough to recognize and pre-determine Anakin's - as they are his own (son's) and Anakin's training is not yet complete - but neither was Obi-Wan's. And all of it came from Qui-Gon [Dooku] - so the Count knows everything they do - but not what 874 year old YODA might know - consequently why Yoda can defeat Dooku.

But now Anakin will want revenge against his father for his mother's sake, against the Jedi because they "caused the same problems for his parents as they are causing him and Padme," and LRT.

What do you think?

SirSteve
01-30-2002, 02:35 PM
I think I would rather watch the movie and find out seeing your post is just as long.

:p

Fulit
01-30-2002, 03:18 PM
Why then would Shmi claim there is no father? Why wouldn't she say, hey, Qui-Gon, your former master knocked me up, would you take his brat with you? Other than that an intriguing theory, though.

SithDroid
01-30-2002, 03:18 PM
Mace will die either by a huge genetically altered shark or genetically engineered dinosaurs.:D :crazed:

Tycho
01-30-2002, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Fulit
Why then would Shmi claim there is no father? Why wouldn't she say, hey, Qui-Gon, your former master knocked me up, would you take his brat with you?

Because Dooku would be kicked out of the Jedi Order and she didn't know the Jedi's customs regarding "illegal offspring" - if they had any. She was protecting Anakin by keeping his parentage (that mattered) anonymous, and protecting Dooku.

Dooku had not left the Jedi Order at this time.

Fulit
01-30-2002, 04:46 PM
I see. Well, it all makes sense to me.

chewie
01-30-2002, 09:12 PM
I'd rather the emporer be Anakin's daddy. That way Vader's "We can rule the universe like father and son." (LRT) could actually happen. It won't be as much a dramatic scene since he wouldn't be killing old pops, but perhaps Anakin's sense of family (such as his anger with the loss of his mother), makes him far more compelled to join his father's fight against the Republic and the Jedi, especially after his former father figure, Obi-Wan, won't let Annie do what he wants to do.

This also would make even more what ifs. Like if Shmi is killed for a reason other than just being killed by marauding tusken raiders. That would make Palpatine the murderer of not only Annie's mom, but the very woman he knocked up. Palpatine wasn't regulated to Naboo, I believe. I assume he made frequent trips to Corusant, and if Tatooine is nearby with a spaceport. He could have stopped there from time to time for some nookie. Shmi also knew Palpatine was a scumbag (like keeping her in slavery for instance and leaving her), so she just made up the birth story for that reason.

As for how all the characters wound up finding each other. Palpatine has managed to string along just about everybody so far. He could have been using his own sith mind tricks on Qui-Gon and co. to land on Tatooine and find Anakin.

I think Palpatine is way more in tune with the force/more midichlorians than Dooku anyway.

As for the emporer never addressing Vader as his son in the OT, that could simply be due to the sith master/apprentice method overtaking familial bonds. Palpatine did call Vader his "friend". But then, that's also not very family like.

Tycho
01-30-2002, 09:52 PM
I like elements of what you stated Chewie, and think some of it could be possible. Now what if Cos Palpatine had once been a Jedi as well?

That would explain why the Jedi "do not sense anything unusual about him" while he's on the same ship. They already know he is strong in the Force. They just don't suspect how he uses it.

He left the Jedi and went on to serve the Naboo - perhaps people he was mixed up with when he was a Jedi. It is kept quiet, as it is possibly an embarassment to the Jedi, but they know who he is and approve of what he's doing for the good of the Naboo. To them it is an irony that he is working with them again as Chancellor. Of course to Palpatine it is by design.

In the script scenes we have revealed to us in the E2 spoiler forums, Palpatine - PALPATINE - refuses police powers being awarded to him by the Senate to commandeer the Clone Army. Of course this is a feint, but the Jedi may honestly trust him - as they trained him to be so careful and unassuming. (and Palpatine has worked it behind the scenes so the Senate will decide to give him the police powers anyway) This might fill in the back story to where Palpatine came from (though not his Sith training). In the meanwhile, it might have been HIM in Jedi service that lost his wife and child - or he met Shmi as a slave in some sleazy love lair, like Chewie suggested, further lowering Palpatine's character to new depths of corruption. (evil laugh: he-heh-heh-heh-ha!)


Most of what I said applied to Dooku might apply to Palpatine - but then Shmi doesn't know who Qui-Gon is exactly. She only knows to trust a Jedi because of some prior experience with one. I think Shmi's tales she told (leaving out her personal involvement with a Jedi no doubt) is how Anakin has come to know so much about the Jedi while living out on Tatooine.

But I still think the father is Dooku:

1) Shmi knowing who Qui-Gon is personally
2) The Emperor never acknowledging Vader as his son
3) Vader willing to use his own son to "off" his own father?
[Kill Grandpa and we can have a great old time, Kid!] - doubt it.
The Anakin you'd described would worship his "Emperor Father," not want him eliminated.
4) If Vader would turn on his own father, he'd have to have evidence the man betrayed his mother. Then he'd make the call to overthrow the old jerk. He's got that if his dad were Dooku. If he were Palpatine, why didn't he do it a long time ago? He couldn't have been waiting for a son he didn't know existed until after Luke blew up the Death Star. Then if Vader got this connection with "Father Palpatine," between ANH and ESB - we should have seen that in the Classic Trilogy - they could have kept the surprise about Shmi burried until ROTJ, and revealed everything in the scene between Luke and Vader on Endor. But it intoduces a character, Shmi, that was never mentioned for 2 other movies with Luke. They didn't tell him about Qui-Gon or Luke's own mother, so why tell him or reveal to the audience, information about Vader's mother then (in Episode 6) ?

True you don't have to, but it's a long stretch as you aren't thinking about Shmi since (possibly Episode 3 - when Anakin mentions it in the final clash with Dooku) and nothing is said of Shmi in ANH or ESB.

It doesn't seem to fit.

I think Dooku is Anakin's father. Even the cape with the chain that Dooku wears, resembles Darth Vader's. Like Father Like Son. Remember how they say we'll turn out just like our parents even if we try everything to avoid it? Yeah.

Rollo Tomassi
01-31-2002, 09:13 PM
Anakin's rage, his hatred is what keeps him alive. His hatred of Obi Wan, his hatred of the Jedi. And his hatred of Palpatine. He needs this anger and hatred in order to channel the Dark Side of the Force into keeping his mangled body alive. He hates Palpatine for not letting his die in the molten chasm. he manipulated and forced Anakin into turning to the dark side and Anakin/Vader can't forgive him. Palpatine actually relishes Vader's anger because it makes him a more powerful Sith. Father or not, this is plenty of reason for Vader to want to overthrow Palpatine with Luke's help.

I think it is more likely that Dooku, if anyone, is Anakin's father. Will this be revealed in the movies? It's possible for the reason you mention (L.R.T.) but, as with many theories in this thread, I don't forsee it being a major story point because it almost borders on contrivancy in trying to repeat the theme of Father/Son.

On the other hand the chain created between all of these characters. Dooku mentor/father figure to Qui Gon who is in turn mentor/father figure to Anakin, who is the son of his own "grandfather" figure, metaphorically speaking. Obi Wan who is the "son" of Qui Gon and the "grandson" of Dooku trying to raise his own "brother/uncle" (This is like a West Virginia Star Wars thread...:rolleyes: ) who is in turn eventually trained by the mentor/father figure Palpatine, who is in turn the mentor of Dooku, making Sidious, Anakin's great great grandfather (in a sense) and therefore Luke is Sidious' great great great grandson. Sidious--->Dooku--->Jinn--->Obi Wan--->Anakin--->Luke.


I think the idea of palpatine being a jedi candidate and instead joining the agri corps and being shipped off to Naboo at age 12 is a VERY intriguing observation. it would be much too conspicuous if palpatine were one of the TWENTY, but if had never gotten in in the first place, well....

Rollo Tomassi
01-31-2002, 09:26 PM
Here is the plot synopsis I spoke of. This has been a collaborative effort, with several themes discussed and repeated ad nauseum, such as whether Anakin is still a Jedi at the beginning of Episode III. That being said, this is what I believe will be the story to Episode III. I have tried to incorporate as many of the contrasting storyline possibilities into this final(and I use that word lightly, I expect many revisions as the second movie comes out and as spoiler information on Episode III comes out) version. Where oppsoing views could not be reconciled, I choose the version I thought best suited the story. By no means do I think the other ideas have no merit, but in terms of the greater storyline, I just made a judgment call. I'd like to thank everyone who contributed (and are still contributing) to the thread.

As of January, 2002, here is the plot to Episode III. let's see how close we come to it in 3 years!!

Rollo Tomassi
01-31-2002, 09:29 PM
EPISODE III: The New Order

Plot Synopsis



As the movie opens, the Clone Wars have been raging for two long years. Casualties on both sides of the conflict are heavy. But, the Republic forces, led by the Jedi Knights, have forced the Confederacy and it’s leader Count Dooku back. Now, victory is in their sights as they prepare for one final attack against the beseiged Confederate forces.

A gigantic Republic fleet maneuvers into position over an exotic new world. Republic gunships and dropships poor out of the armada’s docking bays and streak towards the planet below. They are met with a defensive fleet and they battle in space as the invasion craft speed towards the surface. It is a bleak and barren world. The drop ships land on the outskirts of a bombed out city, and Clone Troopers begin pouring out, led by the Jedi Knights. Among them Bail Organa, General Obi Wan Kenobi and his student Anakin Skywalker, who has become a great hero during the clone wars and is now a Jedi Knight. Both Jedi have been forced to construct ugly, yet functional lightsabers for use.

The Republic troops and vehicles attack Dooku’s last stronghold nestled in the snowy tundra outside the city. It is a grand battle reminiscent of the Hoth Attack in ESB. There are many casualties, including Jedi Knights and Alderaanian Defense Force troops.

Finally, the Republic forces are able to breach the stronghold’s defenses. Anakin and Obi Wan search and find the traitorous Jedi Count Dooku. Dooku realizes his master, Darth Sidious has forsaken him in his quest for more power. Palpatine secretly desires Anakin to replace Dooku as his next Sith Apprentice and gave away the location of Dooku’s secret base, manipulating everyone as always. Dooku battles the two Jedi Knights, taunting them. He baits Obi Wan with Dooku’s former student and Obi Wan’s former master, Qui Gon and taunts Anakin with his bride, Padme. In fury, Anakin strikes Dooku down, much to the disconcert of his Master, Obi Wan. With his dying words, Dooku makes a cryptic comment about the connection between Syo Dyas and Chancellor Palpatine. But Dooku is dead, and his legions defeated. The Clone Wars are ended.

The heroes return to a grand celebration on Coruscant. Anakin rejoins with his bride, Padme in the halls of the senate chamber, but their reunion is interrupted when Palpatine pulls Anakin aside to stand in front of the cheering masses. He tells her he will see her as soon as he can. Palpatine announces the end of the Clone Wars and the reunification of the Republic. He lifts Anakin’s fist in adoration. Padme expresses her melancholy to her friend Senator Mon Mothma. She feels Anakin is being drawn farther and farther away from her by the Chancellor. Mon Mothma feels he is growing too powerful.

At this moment, Chancellor Palpatine suggests the danger is not over. He admonishes the Senate for being weak and suggests the Jedi “guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy” are inneffective in quelling possible future conflicts. He calls for his NEW ORDER and a standing military. In order to prevent other star systems from disrupting the sanctity of the Republic, he proclaims himself Emperor. He dupes Senator Jar Jar Binks from Naboo into seconding his motion. Because Jar Jar is known to be staunch and honest, this quiets many of the dissenting Senators’ fears. The vast majority are overjoyed he has staved off the crumbling of the Republic and many cheer his efforts to keep things in line. Only a few such as Mon Mothma and Bail Organa of Alderaan have quiet misgivings and are apalled by his power grabbing tactics.

Palpatine takes Anakin back to his office to talk to him. The Chancellor has “watched Anakin’s career with great interest” over the years. He has begun to flatter and seduce the young hero,isolate him, pulling him deeper and deeper into Sidious' web of deceit and lies. Manipulating young Skywalker so that when the time comes, the right combination of events, would force him to the dark side. Palpatine is droppings subtle hints about Padme and Obi Wan. Soon, Anakin is listening to his only "true friend" the "benevolent" Chancellor Palpatine.

Meanwhile, Obi Wan meets with Master Yoda, Mace Windu, and the other remaining members of the Jedi Council to discuss Palpatine’s NEW ORDER and Dooku’s cryptic comments about Syo Dyas and the Chancellor/Emperor(whom the Council have been suspicious of for some time).

Anakin returns to his apartment for his reunion with Padme. It is a joyous occasion, for they have not seen each other in months. But then she begins to tell him her fears and misgivings about Palpatine. Seduced by his future master’s lies, Anakin defends the Emperor. He and Padme fight and he leaves.

Obi Wan comes to see Padme and tell her what he and the council discussed. She tells him about Anakin growing more distant and he agrees. She reveals to him that she is pregnant and that Anakin doesn’t know. He tells her his suspicions about Palpatine.

Padme goes to confront Palpatine with what Obi Wan has told her. Being egotistical, he gleefully tells her everything (Similar to his speech with Luke in ROJ.) How he has manipulated everything and everyone to reach his goals of domination. He explains how he manipulated everything since the Invasion of Naboo, and that she and the Jedi were responsible for getting him elected twelve years ago. Everything has transpired according to his wishes. She threatens to talk and he reminds her that she is married to a Jedi and therefore her objective credibility is shot.

Realizing Palpatine is Sidious, she rushes to find Anakin to tell him that his powerful benefactor is pure evil. Palpatine calls Anakin and tells him to come to Palpatine’s office. Padme returns to their apartment to find it empty. She contacts Obi Wan to tell him everything. When Anakin reaches the Emperor’s office, Palpatine tells him that he is “afraid that Padme and Obi Wan may be together” manipulating the two Jedi into a confrontation. Padme meets with Obi Wan and tells him everything. Anakin, who has been “tipped off” by Palpatine, walks in and has his suspicions “confirmed” Harsh accusations by everyone lead to THE BATTLE...

Anakin draws his lightsaber and attacks Obi Wan, who is forced to defend himself. The Battle rages out into the pouring rain. Both men feel betrayed by the other and emotions run high. Tears run down their cheeks as they battle with words and sabers. The struggle leads into a refinery in the lower levels of Coruscant and they come to a precarious catwalk over a vast pit of molten steel.

Padme catches up to them and rushes in to try to stop the battle. Both men are so wrapped up in battle, they inadvertently wound her. She collapses to the floor and Anakin is knocked over the edge of the catwalk, dangling precariously by one hand. Obi Wan reaches out to grab him, pleading for Anakin to take his hand and come back to the light. Anakin, thinking Padme is dead, refuses and deliberately allows himself to fall into the molten steel far below (Similar to Luke in ESB). Weeping bitterly, Obi Wan grabs Anakin’s fallen saber and picks up the mortally wounded Padme and runs for help.

Palpatine, alerted to the duplicity of the Jedi by Padme, calls for a Jedi Purge. Using Count Dooku’s connection to the order as a former Jedi, he accuses the “super powered mind controllers” of starting the Clone Wars as a personal vendetta against one of their own. He suggests that the entire population has been manipulated and calls on the Jedi to surrender. If they don’t, it proves they have a secret agenda. Their ranks already decimated by the Clone Wars, the remaining Jedi, including the students, hold out in their temple. Obi Wan reaches the Jedi temple where they save Padme’s life.

Anakin’s body is retrieved by Palpatine’s troops and taken to a medical facility. Palpatine tells Anakin that he survived the molten steel by giving into the dark side. His hatred fueled the Dark Side of the Force, allowing him to stay afloat on the liquid hot steel and breathe the boiling hot fumes. But his body has paid the price and he must forever wear a life sustaining armor and helmet to help him breathe. He must take all his rage and channel it into keeping himself alive. He tells Palpatine he hates him most of all. The Emperor chuckles at this and says “Good. Good.” Darth Vader is born.

Padme and the other’s realize that she must somehow get herself and her unborn child off of Coruscant. She contacts the only person she can trust: Senator Jar Jar. She tells him everything that has happened. He feels responsible for helping Palpatine attain his power. She tells him they were all duped. He agrees to help secure transport off of Coruscant.

Padme, Obi Wan, Mace Windu, and Yoda manage to escape the Jedi Temple before the new Sith Lord and his minions overrun it. Vader shows his awesome might by killing the remaining Jedi Council Members, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi-Mundi, etc. in a vicious lightsaber battle. Clone troopers enter a room filled with young Jedi trainees being protected by Yaddle. The door closes on them.

Vader, along with Boba Fett and a legion of troops chase the three Jedi and Padme through the city. The Jedi realize that the safety of Padme and her child is paramount. Mace and Obi Wan double back as decoys for the hunters. Padme meets up with Jar Jar who has secured an unobtrusive YT-1300 freighter to take her to Alderaan where Senator Antilles is waiting. They say a wistful farewell and Yoda and Padme climb aboard the familiar craft.

Mace Windu comes across a young Boba Fett and a legion of Clone troopers. A climactic battle ensues. In the midst of it, Mace “allows” himself to become one with the Force. To the uninitiated Fett, it appears as though Windu “disintegrated.” He returns to tell Vader what happened. Vader, who wanted Windu alive for questioning concerning Padme is upset and tells Fett in the future “No Disintegrations”

Trying to escape, Obi Wan comes face to face with Darth Vader. He tells Anakin there is still good in him. Vader says that name no longer has any meaning for him and that Obi Wan does not know “the power of the Dark Side.” He asks Obi Wan what happened to Padme. Obi Wan replies “She’s gone.” In his last act of compassion for his former master, Vader tells him to go “and never come back.” He lets Obi Wan escape.

Obi Wan reaches Alderaan where Padme and Yoda are waiting. He is introduced to the infant Luke Skywalker. Obi Wan asks how padme is and Yoda tells her the combinatoin of the birth and her wound, he fears she is not long for this world. Indeed, she looks very pale and sad to Obi Wan. The three of them decide the best place to hide the son of Skywalker and agree on Tatooine. Padme and Obi Wan say their tearful farewells and then Yoda and Obi Wan board their ship. As it blasts off the camera pans over to Bail Organa holding a second infant.

Obi Wan drops Yoda off on Dagobah. They say good-bye and then Obi Wan and the infant Luke rocket off to Tatooine. He brings the young boy to the moisture farm of Owen and Beru Lars. He explains to them who the child is and what he means to the future of the Republic. Owen is distraught, but agrees to take the boy. He asks where Obi Wan will be.

Obi-Wan turns and looks out into the desert. “Out there.” he replies and walks out into the setting Tatooine suns, alone.


End Credits


All character, locations, events, and terminology are ™ and © LucasFilm Ltd. and are used with permission.

Tycho
02-01-2002, 02:41 AM
Wow! Rollo - you are awesome! That took a lot of work.

That sounds like the story, however I have to throw in a few of my changes I didn't agree with or see added.... (but they are minimal in most cases - save for the beginning)....

EPISODE III: The New Order

Plot Synopsis



As the movie opens, the Clone Wars have been raging for two long years. Casualties on both sides of the conflict are heavy. But the Confederacy has gained the upper hand and pressed from the Outer Rim all the way into the Core. Now it is Alderaan - armed to the teeth, that is one of the last lines of defense! But they fear it will not be enough. The Republic loyalists are angry and violently desperate for a victory. But Palpatine's home planet Naboo has thus stayed out of the conflict so that if at all possible, the Chancellor could still act as a peacebroker in the dispute.

Meanwhile, living out of public life, ex-Jedi Anakin and his wife have followed news of the Republic's eminent defeat with growing alarm. Anakin doesn't want to get involved, but Padme begins to speak out about Naboo's neutrality and urges armed intervention to come in off the Mid-Rim and cut off the Confederacy's supply lines (from the Outer Rim) and capture their leadership under seige in the Core (at Alderaan). Anakin doesn't want to get involved, but he is aware that Obi-Wan is on Alderaan fighting with Bail Organa, and that knowledge, coupled with his wife's determination to stop the Trade Federation and any Confederacy they might have joined, pushes him to lead the Naboo volunteers on a mission against all odds - to attack the Confederacy from behind and break Naboo's neutrality. Now the Republic forces, led by the Jedi Knights, have forced the Confederacy and it’s leader Count Dooku back (with it's military hero, ex-Republic Commander Tarkin). Victory is in the Republic's sights as they prepare for one final attack against the beseiged Confederate forces.

The last of the Republic fleet maneuvers into position over Alderaan . Republic gunships and dropships poor out of the armada’s docking bays and streak towards the planet below. They are met with a defensive fleet and they battle in space as the invasion craft speed towards the surface. The Naboo volunteers join in the fray and Anakin enters the battle

The Republic troops and vehicles attack Dooku’s last stronghold. It is a grand battle reminiscent of the Hoth Attack in ESB. There are many casualties, including Jedi Knights and Alderaanian Defense Force troops They look like Tantive IV Rebel Fleet Troopers.

Finally, the Republic forces are able to breach the stronghold’s defenses. Anakin and Obi Wan search and find the traitorous Jedi Count Dooku. Obi-Wan doesn't want Anakin in this fight against his own father. Dooku might realize his master, Darth Sidious has forsaken him in his quest for more power. Palpatine secretly desires Anakin to replace Dooku as his next Sith Apprentice and gave away the location of Dooku’s secret base, manipulating everyone as always. Dooku battles the two Jedi Knights, taunting them. He baits Obi Wan with Dooku’s former student and Obi Wan’s former master, Qui Gon and taunts Anakin with his bride, Padme. He provokes Anakin enough that he hopes he might leave the Jedi Order, knowing what Palpatine has in store for them. Dooku does love his son, but wants him to be strong - not follow the path of the Jedi. He wants to separate Anakin from Obi-Wan, but cannot handle his son's fighting ability when Anakin uses the Dark Side. Anakin blames Dooku for everything that befell him and his mother, and even Qui-Gon. In fury, Anakin strikes Dooku down, much to the disconcert of his Master, Obi Wan. With his dying words, Dooku makes a cryptic comment about the connection between his anger and his power - and the legacy he did leave for his son: that lesson so well learned "Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey toward the Dark Side will be complete! " He tells his son to find Syo Dyas and trust in there being another way - that Obi-Wan's is doomed. But Dooku is dead, and his legions defeated. Tarkin agrees to surrender if he can retain atonomy in the new union in whatever form it may take. He was secretly working for Palpatine all along anyway. A plant in command of the Confederacy - on purpose of course. Alderaan must disarm as part of the agreement as the rebelling worlds are afraid of them. The Clone Wars are ended.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think Vader might think Padme is dead from before in the battle. I'm not sure. Palpatine could just as easily order his "new ally" Tarkin to use ex-Confederate bounty hunters to take care of Padme....

I think the rendezvous point before baby Leia gets to Alderaan IS Dagobah, to throw them off. They go all the way out to the Outer Rim, and then double-back to the Core (for Alderaan). Yoda remains behind as a decoy so no one leaves Dagobah alive.

Luke says "There's something familiar about this place...." I think that's why. Otherwise, it makes little sense for Yoda to go to Dagobah by himself. He could have stayed on Alderaan in secret, as Obi-Wan did on Tatooine. Right?

Not sure, but I really like what you did Rollo! Great work! and I think I agree with almost all of it that I didn't make changes to here.

Rollo Tomassi
02-01-2002, 08:41 AM
Someone also suggested that the "nameless, barren world" is Mandalore, and hence is being defended by Mandalorians, thus keeping with the tenuous continuity that the Jedi fought and wiped out the Mandalorians during the Clone Wars.

I like the idea of Dagobah being a rendezvous point.


Palpatine could just as easily order his "new ally" Tarkin to use ex-Confederate bounty hunters to take care of Padme.... such as the Mandalorians, including Boba Fett!

I purposefully left Tarkin out, because there were so many possibilities, and none of them worked better than the others, so I just decidied he will be a cameo part and not be integral to the story, much like Mon Mothma, who has about 30 seconds of screen time. She and Tarkin would just be visual connections to the OT.

I also like the idea of the urgency, if the Confederacy has the upper hand and the attack on Mandalore/Alderaan (depending on your version ;) ) is sort of a 'D-Day' all or nothing last stand. Ahhhh...see? Revisions already!...:)

Rollo Tomassi
02-15-2002, 08:40 AM
BattleDroid started a thread that suggested Dooku was Yoda's padawan learner and he also suggested Dooku was destroyed in the cave on Dagobah, which is why it is so strong in the dark side.

Just thought I'd throw that into the mix here.

Beast
02-15-2002, 06:26 PM
Cool plot Synopsis Rollo, putting together Yours and Tycho's with my own thoughts and ideas in regard to Episode III, I believe we pretty much have it all figured out. There might be a few twists and turns, but I think we are pretty close with it. To bad we have over three years to wait to find out. Keep up the posts, I love reading everyone's ideas. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

rdrunr89
02-16-2002, 01:08 PM
Ok, granted I'm coming in late, but most of what I have read on this thread are great. Rollo et al, everything is great. I wanted to address one thing though and thats whether or not Obi-Wan knows about Leia. If it already has been addressed with what I'm going to say, I apologize.


Obi-Wan probably knows about Leia. The reason for him saying that Luke is the last hope could be one of two things:

1) Leia would take too long to train and being involved in the Rebel Alliance, would not be able to be trained.

2) Leia may not have the resistance that Luke has and may have turned to the Dark Side if she did have to confront Vader and Palpatine. Remember when Vader finds out, he says "if you will not turn, then perhaps she will". This sets Luke off into fighting again and ultimately cutting off Vaders hand. Luke knows that Leia would not be able to resist the Dark Side.

Also, another thing from this thread is Anakin and Padme going to live with Owen. Anakin may take Padme there but leaves to get involved with the Clone Wars. Remember Obi-Wan in ANH "He didn't hold with your father's ideas. He thought he should've stayed here and not gotten involved."

As for Han Solo being a clone...Nope. Boba Fett is just PO'd at Han because he wants to get paid by Jabba. Dengar is the only one who Han really ticked off by forcing him to crash in a speeder race.


Any thoughts?? Anyone??? Buehller??

Rollo Tomassi
02-16-2002, 04:51 PM
Good points rdrunr.

I think Leia should be kept a secret from Obi Wan not so much for Obi Wans sake and his line in ESB, but because, in essence, it would keep the secret from the audience. That way, when Leia is revealed as Luke's sibling, for those watching the Saga in order (a steadily dwindling number) it comes as a suprise.

I like the idea of Anakin and Padme trying domestic life on Tatooine, but in terms of moving the story forward cinematically, you won't see much of that aspect of their story. Anakin will get drawn into the Clone Wars fairly early on and be embroiled in them by the time E3 rolls around.

There is quite a bit of EU animosity between Han Solo and Boba Fett and most of the conjecture in here is centered around that. the Solo clone theory is one of the better, more thought out theories, but I don't see it making it onto the screen. Too much other stuff going on.

rdrunr89
02-18-2002, 07:33 AM
I see your point Rollo on Leia being kept secret from Obi-Wan, but it raises another question, even though I probably know what everyone will say:

1) Why was Obi-wan so anxious to help Leia when she sent the holo via R2 and get Luke involved in it?

Here are possible reasons:

1) He owes a debt to Bail Organa or to Padme and that is why he wants to help Leia.

2) He knows Leia is Luke's sister and wants to get him involved because a) it will start things in motion to bring back the Jedi Order, and b) Obi-Wan knows that Luke is the only one who can stop Vader.

3) Another thought is that he knows Leia may be force sensitive and having her captured by Vader, he might detect that and then train her to the Dark Side.

Ok, so the third one is a little weak. LOL. We know Obi-Wan uses the excuse that "he's getting too old for this sort of thing" but in ROTJ he says that "many of the truths we cling to, depend on our point of view."

I still think Obi-Wan knows about Leia and I'm sure we can debate this for the next 3 years. :D

Rollo Tomassi
02-19-2002, 08:25 PM
Obi Wan seems almost giddy at the prospect of dragging Luke along on his adventure, doesn't he?

I imagine before he left Alderaan, Bail told ObiWan that he was going to start an underground movement and when the time was right for this "rebellion" to go public, Bail would contact ObiWan somehow and Obi Wan would take Luke to Alderaan for his training. I think stealing the Death Star plans was a pretty public first mission for the alliance and it sent the signal to Ben to get going. The plan got derailed when the Death Star obliterated Alderaan.

rdrunr89
02-21-2002, 09:49 AM
Giddy??? :)


I do agree that he wants to drag Luke into this and that maybe after all those years of being stuck in the desert, he did turn into a "crazy old man".

I think that not so much of the stealing of the Death Star plans would be the signal to Obi-Wan to help out, but I think it has to do with Leia. I still believe he knows about Leia.

Darth Ovori
02-21-2002, 10:36 AM
I'm impressed by Rollo's work... Great stuff that...

On the Han clone theory... Well he did work for the empire before going rogue....

Toad
03-01-2002, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
One more thing: Obi-Wan Kenobi will not fight DARTH VADER in the entire prequel trilogy. I am 70% sure of it.

He will be afraid to face Obi-Wan I think - though the theory that he lets him go, as a final favor to his old friend and master - and lies to Palpatine that Obi-Wan is dead, might be correct. So they could confront each other.

Actually, it echoes of Palpatine saying "It is the only way you can save your friends." Perhaps Anakin's allegiance to Palpatine also protects Obi-Wan, who the Sith know is still alive.

Obi-Wan lives so long as he doesn't interfere. That and Obi-Wan is a Sith-Killer of some accomplishment, and it would serve no purpose to face him, especially considering all the emotions involved. Meanwhile, Obi-Wan knows that 'Darth Vader's loyalty to him' will only go so far, but the Dark Lord is 10 times less likely to strike down his own son - as Anakin chose FAMILY over everything. So it is best for Obi-Wan to be exiled and watch over Luke (though Vader doesn't know that's why he agreed to leave.)

Remember "You should not have COME BACK" from ANH?

The lie had convinced Tarkin that Obi-Wan was likely dead, but he might have known that Kenobi survived the Jedi death as well: "Surely his fire has gone out of the universe by now." Implying that Tarkin figures the nearly 60 year old Kenobi could not have survived on the run that long, and some Death Squad or Obi-Wan's characteristic knack for finding trouble got him killed somewhere along the lines.

OK. Now I am not 70% sure VADER doesn't face Obi-Wan. Though I do think they agree to part ways without much of a fight -if any at all.

The big lightsaber fights will be ANAKIN vs. Obi-Wan, and Anakin vs. Dooku for his final revenge. Palpatine must somehow get involved - and maybe due to his age, he himself narrowly escapes Obi-Wan. I got a theory: maybe Obi-Wan could strike Palpatine down, but Palpatine must use Dark Side Lightning (on Obi-Wan, revealing his true nature) but VADER interferes and threatens to turn on Palpatine (who he owes for saving his life nonetheless) but will swear allegiance to Palpatine if he spares Obi-Wan (so long as he agrees to 'get the hell out of town).

There being no more Jedi, and his former apprentice buying Obi-Wan's life with his own, Obi-Wan must leave and acknowledge DARTH VADER's only act as a Jedi - thus also making him not the complete evil character (but rather the fallen hero).

And Vader swears his allegiance to Palpatine over Obi-Wan's life, thus one more reason, he must obey his master!

A couple things I don't like about this. (If someone else has already said this -- I apologize -- I'm replying as I go here).
1) If Darth Vader is evil enough to fight and attempt to kill his own son, he will not be above fighting and killing Obi-Wan
2) If Darth Vader actually saved Obi-Wan by going ot the dark side, Obi-Wan would have a much greater respect for him, and not say that "Darth Vader killed your father" spiel to Luke in ANH.

Man, I gotta say, I've been reading your guys' posts for hours today -- great work, and you're getting me all riled up!!

Rollo Tomassi
03-01-2002, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Toad


A couple things I don't like about this. (If someone else has already said this -- I apologize -- I'm replying as I go here).
1) If Darth Vader is evil enough to fight and attempt to kill his own son, he will not be above fighting and killing Obi-Wan
2) If Darth Vader actually saved Obi-Wan by going ot the dark side, Obi-Wan would have a much greater respect for him, and not say that "Darth Vader killed your father" spiel to Luke in ANH.

Man, I gotta say, I've been reading your guys' posts for hours today -- great work, and you're getting me all riled up!!


1. I don't think Vader was ever trying to kill Luke. In fact, he was trying to turn Luke to his side in his struggle against the Emperor. "Come Join me. Together we can rule the galaxy as father and son." If you read between the lines, Vader hated the Emperor and wanted his job. When Palpatine said they should destroy Skywalker, Vader scrambled together the idea of turning him. "He would be a powerful ally." He didn't want to kill his son. In the battle on Cloud City. Vader is pretty much takin' it easy on Luke. if he really wanted to hand him his tush, he would have just done so.
2. I think it's more that Vader saved Obi Wan in spite of going to the dark side. Not because of it. The whole second confrontation theory for me revolves around the line "You should not have come back." This implies Vader knew Obi Wan was still alive, and that HE LET HIM GO. If he let's him go, then throughout the rest of the saga, the audience is left with this twinge of decency in Vader. Which pays off when he chucks the Emperor down the shaft to save his son.

Jedi Clint
03-01-2002, 04:29 PM
We have been throwing around a lot of absolutes in this topic for some time....that is basically why I opted out of interjecting for a while. I don't think that Vader's "You should not have come back line" means that he let Obi Wan go. Kenobi could have simply escaped. His escape could also leave one with the impression that perhaps he perished........like Anakin's death at his former master's hands prior to there second meeting. I think there will be a second meeting for this reason:

If Vader is to appear on screen in E3, then what shall his purpose be? Well, if it is coordinated with Palpatine's goals of eliminating the Jedi, which I think is a solid bet, then who would be the first Jedi that Vader would go after? I bet it would be the one that put him in a life support suit for the rest of his days.

I still believe that E3 will be broken into three acts with the following events taking place in each:

Act 1

Anakin vs. Dooku.
Republic vs. Confederacy.
Meeting between Padme and Kenobi.

Act 2

Consolidation of the 2 warring factions into the new order - Palpatine's Empire.
The confrontation between Kenobi and Skywalker.

Act 3

Introduction of Darth Vader.
Birth of Twins.


Here are few things that I think need to be explored before the curtains close:

Palpatine's plans for the Jedi.
I think this can be easily resolved with dialogue between Palpatine and Vader, and in the dialogue between Jedi and their sympathizers.

Luke's importance to the future.

Birth of the Rebellion.
Those that sympathize with the Jedi, those that oppose Palpatine, and those that are in the know should at least declare their intentions to start a movement against the new order.

Padme's state of being. I think the most physical trauma this character will experience in E3 is the birth of twins. Her spiritual state of being needs to be addressed properly though. We need to feel this character's anguish.

And to stick with the title of this thread......I think we should see what becomes of Mace Windu. I like the theory that he becomes one with the force in the presence of Boba Fett. That would work well IMO.

Rollo Tomassi
03-01-2002, 04:46 PM
You're right about absolutes. I've said before I don't want toget to attatched to what we've come up with because if I'm incorrect, I don't want to be let down. There's no guarantee of a second confrontation.

I just think a second confrontation between Anakin (now Vader) and Obi Wan would be POWERFUL storytelling. I don't know if Ben escapes, or fakes his death, or Vader lets him go, or what. But seeing Obi Wan meet his former Padawan as a brand new lord of the sith is too powerful and cool of an idea NOT to put in the movie.

Tycho
03-01-2002, 08:10 PM
I'm walking the fence on this one - whether Vader faces Obi-Wan in E3.

Vader will have Ki-Adi Mundi and Plo Koon to kill, if he needs to be shown eliminating some Jedi. They are told to survive E2.

Next, we have Luminara, Shaak-Ti, and Kit Fisto, the last of which seems to be heading towards some kind of cult-popularity build-up. Now there are 5 recognizable Jedi surviving the Battle at Geonosis who can square off with Vader in E3.

Yoda and Obi-Wan survive the whole prequel trilogy obviously, and I think Rollo has always been right about Mace - his destiny will lie with a final confrontation between this Jedi and Boba Fett.

Rollo, I love what you said about Vader's one act of mercy that leaves audiences with a scrap of hope that they save all the way until ROTJ when they can cash it in when Palpatine does.

Jedi Clint, your basic known plot outline is perfect in all respects and known fact and exact story replication.

Great job. Now I am so ready for Episode 3. Could somebody speed up the clock?!

Toad
03-04-2002, 12:28 PM
No, b/c otherwise he'd know that 'no, there is another.'
BUT, how would he not know?
And why wouldn't he and Yoda hide out together?

Your thoughts? :)

Rollo Tomassi
03-06-2002, 03:07 PM
So this "Volcano Planet" thing in the 'Somebody did their homework..." thread is starting to bug me. It totally doesn't mesh with what We've been discussing and I'm trying to fit it into the bigger picture. I've been going back over Tycho's theories about Dooku and thinking about incorporating some of that into this Volcano Planet revision. Here's the bare-bones tentative idea.

Instead of Dooku dying on [Mandalore] he escapes, but his armies are still defeated. Everybody comes back to Coruscant and the whole Padme, Obi Wan, Anakin triangle thing happens. But instead of Anakin confronting Obi Wan and Padme then and there, he lets it stew for a bit. We see him seething behind a door, listening to them and thinking somethings going on. Palpatine, then calls on Obi Wan and Anakin to go to the planet Firere (the Volcano planet) because that is where Dooku is hiding. Anakin and Obi Wan go there and find Dooku, where they have a confrontation similar to the one Tycho suggested ( I say similar because the "Daddy Dooku" theory doesn't sit completely right with me). In the midst of the battle, Anakin turns on Obi Wan (like the old rumored end of Episode II) and Obi Wan is fighting for his life against both Dooku and Anakin. Dooku is killed (either by Ani or Obi, haven't fleshed that part out...suggestions?) and then the main plot resumes where Anakin goes over the edge and refuses to be helped back up. Palpatine, who orchestrated the whole thing, is waiting to see what happens (is he planning on executing Dooku, anyway? Again, haven't fleshed out and could use suggestions) and recovers Ani's body and transports it to a Star Destroyer medical bay. The rest of the plot continues as before.

Problems I am having (besides the one listed above) is whether Padme is there or not. If she's there with them (as she was in the first draft), why? What logical reason would she have to go with them? Diplomatic? Did she sneak on board? And why would they go back to Coruscant afterwards?

If she's NOT with them, how would that affect Obi Wan returning and telling her Ani's "dead". Would she be willing to go with him to save the children? Or would she blame him for Ani's death and refuse his help?

There's also an issue of when the Anti-Jedi machinations of Palpatine are taking place during all this. In the first draft, since it was all happening on Coruscant, it was easier to follow. But now when Padme and Obi Wan return (or just Obi Wan depending on the version) it's into an entirely different political climate.

So what are your thoughts everybody?

Tycho
03-07-2002, 05:11 AM
OK - where is this volcano planet coming from?

I thought it was agreed that the lava pools would be the magma under the crust of Coruscant itself - where the Kenobi - Skywalker duel would occur.

Furthermore, they go to all the trouble of showing Alderaan getting blown up in E4, that I hope it will have to be visited and elaborated upon in E3 (since it's not in AOTC).

With Tatooine in the movie for certain - Obi-Wan and Luke must end up there, and Dagobah playing a role (for Yoda, and Luke as well -"There's something familiar about this place," how many more planets can there be in one movie?

Coruscant
Alderaan
Dagobah
Tatooine

Is the fate of Naboo never resolved? Just left there?

What's the story with Kamino and Geonosis? Is the latter pacified in AOTC's? Where is Dooku defeated? Why must Alderaan disarm?

Meanwhile, from past examples:

Tatooine is always revisited.
The Death Star was destroyed.
Yavin had to be abandoned.
Hoth had to be evacuated.
Dagobah is revisited, until when Yoda dies, there remains nothing to go back to.
Endor is where the story closes - and in terms of the films only, we don't know what the Rebel's next move is.

If you bring up the EU - which I love - I remind you that Concord Dawn is just an EU world. Kessel was mentioned in the movie, so was Dantooine, Ord Mantel, Sollust - in fact, Sollust has lava flows, too.

I love almost all of your theory Rollo, but in terms of the planets, and some volcano planet being a new one (versus one we've been to or heard of - and Coruscant we've been to, just not in its magma core) I do not agree with any consensus that there will be more planets in E3, nor do I think Concord Dawn will have anything to do with the films.

I also do think Dooku could still be Anakin's father. But I don't think Anakin would turn on Obi-Wan while they are facing Dooku. UNLESS: Dooku twists what happened to Shmi around to being Anakin's fault, and because he listened to him - Obi-Wan's. Then it becomes a "family thing" to take revenge on Obi-Wan, who still manages to survive - killing Dooku and mortally wounding Anakin.

Thus when Vader faces Obi-Wan, he blames him for making him ignore his duty to his mother, and for killing his father. Instead, Obi-Wan, "the foster parent," has restricted Anakin from growing his power, prevented him from safe-keeping his family legacy, as well as forbid him to become involved with Padme. A parallel to what Fett goes through - and could also blame a Jedi (mostly Mace Windu) for. An interesting connection and common bond for Vader and Fett (if Vader is aware of Fett's personal history). Also, a reason for mercy, if Fett failed Vader (to find Padme, or bring back Mace alive) - and why Vader let Fett live "dispite disintegrations."

Rollo Tomassi
03-07-2002, 11:31 AM
Concorde Dawn? What who? I think Concord Dawn should be left in the EU, also. I don't think Fett hits CD until much later in his life (3-4 years after Episode III).

Naboo will be supplanted by Alderaan in Episode III. Naboo's fate will be resolved through some dialogue from Palpatine (perhaps concerning the "traitorous" Jar Jar Binks. It may (or may not) be implied that Binks has sacrificed himself off screen by helping Padme escape and that all connection between Palpatine and Naboo must be eradicated. :eek: leaving the planet's actual fate up to the imagination of the audience.

Tatooine and Dagobah will be miniscule in their screen time and shouldn't really count towards "The three planet rule" They are more of connectors with the OT than set pieces unto themselves. Which leaves:

The opening battle scene planet (Alderaan or Mandalore, depending on your fave version)

Coruscant (How much screen time depends on which version you follow)

The Volcano Planet (again depending on whether Anakin and Obi Wan fight here or on Coruscant)

Alderaan (either as the first planet or as part of the triumverate of resolution worlds Dagobah, Tatooine, and Alderaan) Either way it should show up so we can see McQuarrie's paintings come to life.

The volcano planet was brought up in the article in "Somebody did their homework" thread. It lists a volcano national park on some tiny island somewhere as having been scouted for Episode III. This throws a kink in the bowels of Coruscant idea, so I'm just revising a bit. Sort of a second draft of what we've come up with so far. I just gave it the name Firere on a whim.

The article also mentions Aurra Sing (played by Laura Cox) in both II AND III, so any suggestions how she can be tossed into the story would be great also (Jedi hunting? Fett's Back Up? Kills Yaddle?;) )

I don't dislike the "Daddy Dooku" theory (I like it better than Immaculate Ani), but it hinges on Shmi confessing as much to Anakin in AOTC, and I've not heard hide nor hair of any confession. So I'm reluctant to cement it into the story. if Shmi doesn't confess, then it's up to Dooku to tell Anakin. Either in AOTC or in III. If it's in III, then by that point for me, it's too late and seems like a contrivance. So I'll wait until AOTC comes out and if someone mentions it, I'll be more inclined to throw it into the film. Right now I'm a bit cagey aboout it.

Here's something else I just thought of. Suppose Dooku tells Anakin he's Dad. BUT HE'S LYING. This would have an overwhelming impact on the audience's reaction to the ESB revelation, when IT TURNS OUT TO BE TRUE. (Assuming you were watching the entire saga in order for the first time.)

Not only that, but it would be a cool reversal on audience's reaction for II and III. Since they assumed Vader was lying (at least I did) in ESB and it turned out to be true, they would assume Dooku was telling the truth (shocking!) and then have the rug pulled out from under them when it was found out to be false.

Thoughts?

Toad
03-07-2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
Not only that, but it would be a cool reversal on audience's reaction for II and III. Since they assumed Vader was lying (at least I did) in ESB and it turned out to be true, they would assume Dooku was telling the truth (shocking!) and then have the rug pulled out from under them when it was found out to be false.

Thoughts?

Who's going to tell the audience that it's not true? Also, I just really hope that Lucas isn't going to resort to "the same old thing" when it comes to storytelling. Come on Georgie, come up with something other than an "I'm your father" thing!!!

Tycho
03-07-2002, 03:51 PM
The tale is about variations on a theme. Lucas has said so much. So for your tastes there, I'm sorry. George is not going for doing something unrelated, but for reinforcing a theme about this tragic family, sort of like The Godfather. It's been called a space opera before for good reason. Sorry, but we're not going to find out that Midichlorians come from another dimension or that Palpatine really isn't human or anything so radical. This is like a family soap opera set in violent space, and you can either like that or not. It is what it is, and you are here, so you probably like it.

Thus, Dooku really could be Anakin's father, or the lie theory could still come into play, but the "I am your father" bit will surely fly.

Rollo, while I would like to see another planet in the immense Star Wars galaxy, I point out that just because they shoot at an Italian island volcano site, doesn't actually mean it will be a volcano planet.

1) They could shoot inside it, and who could tell it was a volcano apart from Coruscant's inner crust?

2) The volcano might be filled with water right now, and it might serve as landscape scenery for the lake on Naboo, or to represent the way the EU has described Alderra - the capital of Bail Organa's homeworld.

3) Such as the fact that you could shoot an X-wing crashed in the middle of a swamp but actually be in a warehouse building in the heart of an English commercial district in reality. (Elstree Studios). So location could be misleading.

I always thought an all-gaseous planet would be....well they did Bespin. They've done a water planet, they've done rocky mountains, a desert, a forest, an ice-world. Hmmmmm. A swamp... a city. Cave-dwelling sets like Ryloth might be cool. They could find Bin Laden while they're at it. He could play Dead Dooku and George Bush will fund the final movie with the reward for what's left of him!

Jedi Clint
03-07-2002, 04:25 PM
I mentioned earlier that Geonosis was described as "Hell" in one review of AOTC. Why couldn't the volcanic landscape they are supposedly scouting for be part of that world?

Rollo Tomassi
03-07-2002, 10:29 PM
Good point(s).

chewie
03-09-2002, 12:55 PM
I don't think Dagobah will be seen in the prequel trilogy, but most points are fairly solid in this thread. At no point in any of the movies so far has Yoda been given a scene as the main character in it. If Dagobah does show up, it will be because Obi-Wan will personally escort him there.

Tycho
03-09-2002, 01:21 PM
True to some degree Chewie: [he says] "Yoda is never the main character in a scene he appears in."

In ESB and ROTJ Yoda did take on more importance than he has in the prequels - he was training Luke and revealed the truth to him about his father.

In what he know of AOTC and what we've already seen of TPM, Yoda does not take a starring role. He's merely there at the Council to test Anakin and ground Qui-Gon's decisions as unorthodox to say the least. Finally, he serves to identify the Sith and describe their traditions.

In AOTC we do know that Yoda defeats Darth Tyranus in the climatic battle. However, he is there not to star, but to save the stars, as this scene is focused on and about what is happening to Anakin and Obi-Wan. However, the importance of the scene should not be discounted in YOUR argument Chewie. You are still right, however, Yoda's importance is taken up a step as he serves up the Jedi's victory over the Sith in this movie, and shows how things should be done (let's disregard for a moment the fact that everything going on is going as Palpatine has planned anyway, and take things at their face value for this discussion).

So Yoda is evolving into a more important character (to the plot - I'm not talking about his importance to the Jedi from Coruscant, I'm talking about his importance to the staff at Skywalker Ranch).

So in little scene by scene parts, I think Yoda's importance is building to that of a larger role, and it is feasible that in Episode 3, we will have a short segment of "The Adventures of Yoda the Intergalactic Babysitter" or he will serve as a decoy to help get the twins to safety.

Tyranus or another Dark Jedi follower may die in a fight on Dagobah, as to help explain the Dark Presence in the tree cave, or they might leave that as the Timothy Zahn wrote about it for the Expanded Universe (in other words, not bring it up in the prequels and let the books say anything they want about it - but personally, I did not like the way the ordinarily good writer Zahn handled that, UNLESS, a Dark Jedi character we see in the prequels is from, escapes to, or at least travels from "the Bpvasshi System" to Dagobah and is there defeated by Yoda. - Who knows? Maybe Tyranus is a human from Bpvassh? (an EU planet.) Or maybe one EU Dark Jedi went there to find out what happened to a movie Dark Jedi who died there? It doesn't matter for this discussion, but you guys can jump in on this if it interests you).

However, Obi-Wan will probably pick up Luke on Dagobah. It makes no sense for Luke to be taken there before Tatooine if Luke is already with Obi-Wan. But Luke must go to Dagobah before he gets adopted by his Aunt and Uncle on Tatooine.

Toad
03-11-2002, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
The tale is about variations on a theme. Lucas has said so much. So for your tastes there, I'm sorry. George is not going for doing something unrelated, but for reinforcing a theme about this tragic family, sort of like The Godfather. It's been called a space opera before for good reason. Sorry, but we're not going to find out that Midichlorians come from another dimension or that Palpatine really isn't human or anything so radical. This is like a family soap opera set in violent space, and you can either like that or not. It is what it is, and you are here, so you probably like it.

Well Tycho, just because you say that's what George Lucas wants/says, it doesn't mean I have to like it. (And you seem so perturbed by that). I'm here because I enjoy everything about Star Wars, though admittedly I don't read the books or comics, etc. That being said, I would much rather have something ELSE be the climax/shocker than something I have already seen. All that Midicholorian/Palpatine stuff you brought up didn't really jive with me -- I have never mentioned either.

I think recurring themes are cool, when used properly. But to use the same formula again doesn't make me excited. Will I hate the movie if Count Dooku is Anakin's papa? No, of course not. Would I like it more if Anakin's father is never hinted at? Again, of course not. I take these films for what they are, and then I like to piece them together. I won't sit after the movie and wish something had been altered for MY approval.

You may think it's strong story-telling to touch on the "I'm your father" theme again, I don't know. I don't ---- that's it! I would much rather have the shock of Vader telling Luke that line in Ep. V than hearing it before then. To me, and many of you disagree, that is the most important line in the OT. If I hear it and see the same story in the new trilogy, it will lose some of its power.

However, Rollo has suggested that perhaps Dooku will say "I am your father" and turn out not to be. There could be some cool things done with that, as far as the implications for Anakin --- and then he in turn says it to his own son.

I personally don't think it will happen, but if it does, I'll be cheering alongside all of you. Oh yeah, Tycho, "sorry". ;)

Tycho
03-11-2002, 03:27 PM
Toad, you pre-supposed I disagree with you. Not exactly so. And you make some very good points in your last post.

True: you don't have to like it if George is playing variations on a theme. We don't even know for sure that's what he's doing, though I've stated it's quite likely and fits the pattern.

(but Palpatine could even be Anakin's progenator as of yet)

I'm not upset if you don't like the variations on the fatherhood theme though. Until we both know more, we can't state our opinion from hindsight anyway, but regardless, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Toad, you make your points well and are respectful of others you may disagree with, so I commend you for it.

The Mace's Death thread seems to attract a respectful and thoughtful type of forum user to this posting, and I'm glad to see the tradition continue through what? 10 pages! Wow!

To clarify though - I don't think it's strong story-telling to use the father theme again. I think it is intelligent use of pattern-pieces in a repetative epic to do it this way, not necessarily original or imaginative. I don't think Lucas is going for the latter two concepts in how it relates to Anakin's dubious parentage. George is original and creative in other ways.

As to who LOOKS like Anakin? I'm not sure Ian McDiarmid or Christopher Lee look like Lloyd-Christensen-Shaw. Lee is the weakest comparison. But it is still possible. Anakin might look more like Shmi. Pernilla's forhead and nose sort of do make it possible for her to be Jake or Hayden's mom.

So if Dooku says he is Anakin's father and it does turn out to be a lie, that could be a slightly creative plot twist that could work too. Then Palpatine could STILL be the father, too! I think Dooku is more likely though - because of his Master relationship to Qui-Gon, and thus Shmi would know who Qui-Gon is and let her son go with him (even if Qui-Gon has no clue who his master fooled around with after he'd finished training under Dooku).

Of course the other choice is that Palpatine had been the one in the affair, and he had pretended to lose Shmi in the pirate attack that caused her to fall into slavery, and he was having Dooku keep an eye on Anakin. Meanwhile, as Dooku got more involved with the Clone Wars, the Count paid Aurra Sing to take over for him. Dooku still might have met Shmi and told her about his padawan Qui-Gon at some point in their past. But I still think Shmi knows exactly who Qui-Gon is by name, though they'd never met face-to-face before TPM.

It is interesting to see Dooku tempt Obi-Wan to join him in the latest trailer. 'Follow me as your Master did before you!' - we didn't hear him say that in the trailer, but it might give away too much to the spoiler conscientious. But I'm sure it will come up in the movie.

To be followed by : "If you will not join me [turn to the Dark Side - though Dooku doesn't admit he's with the Sith], then perhaps your padawan [sister in ROTJ] will!"

And Obi-Wan yells "Nooooooooo!" LOL

A climactic lightsaber battle follows, and instead of him cutting off Dooku's hand, a giant crane is thrown on top of him.

These things happen. The galaxy is an unsafe place....

That's why it's important for Jedi Knights to have the proper insurance company.

Call 1-800-Jedi-Guard and get a free quote. Prices may vary depending upon your Sith experience rate, piloting qualifications, and whether or not you work around 15 foot tall animals with 8 legs that might rip you apart. Senior discounts available to those over 850 years old. Call now!

Rollo Tomassi
03-18-2002, 10:41 AM
Anakin promoted to Jedi Knight?
Obi Wan a member of the council?
Thoughts?

Rollo Tomassi
03-19-2002, 09:19 AM
Comments in SWI#59 have got me considering this new smaller 'bad guy' role Rick McCallum suggested was in III.

While young Tarkin and Older Boba Fett are possibilities, I think the new bad guy is a New Sith Apprentice that Dooku has recruited. In our original synopsis, Palpatine is planning to overthrow Dooku and replace him with Anakin. This is a passive reasoning for Palpatine wanting to get rid of Dooku. he simply wants him out of the way because he wants Anakin as his Apprentice. But if Dooku is starting his own Sith franchise, it incurs the wrath of Palpatine and gives him an active reason to betray Dooku to the Imperial/Republic forces. Perhaps the original plan had the separatists never getting too powerful, just enough to scare the Republic into declaring Palpatine Emperor. But Dooku is more tenacious than Palpatine had planned on and the Republic is truly against the ropes as Tycho has suggested. Dooku training an apprentice is the final straw for Palpatine, who then leaks Dooku's location to the forces led by Anakin and Obi Wan, which leads to the all or nothing D-Day type invasion/sneak attack at the beginning of the film. This concludes with Anakin and Obi Wan in a two on two fight (a variation we've not seen yet) with Dooku and his new apprentice (a female maybe? or maybe not.) Instead of Anakin cutting down Dooku (in the original), he viciously cuts down the apprentice allowing Dooku to escape (having more Chris Lee in the film is a GOOD thing.;) ) but still creating the schism between Anakin and Obi Wan because of Ani's actions. We had Obi Wan angry with Anakin for killing Dooku in the original, but he'd be just as angry at him for killing the Apprentice.

In summation, New Sith Apprentice bad guy gives Palpatine ACTIVE reason (rather than passive) to betray Dooku and death of Apprentice creates schism between Anakin and Obi Wan while not sacrificing Dooku in the process. What do you guys think?

Tycho
03-19-2002, 11:08 AM
It's plausible, but then what are you doing with Dooku if you left him alive at the end of Episode 3?

Or does VADER kill him?

Rollo Tomassi
03-19-2002, 08:11 PM
Well, instead of Anakin "discovering" Padme and Obi Wan and then attacking right then and there in a fit of rage, he keeps it to himself and just kind of stews. The audience knows he knows, so there's tension when Palpatine sends Anakin and Obi Wan to find Dooku. There is also tension because the audience knows that Padme and Obi Wan just talked about Palpatine being evil, so both Ani and Obi are kind of eyeing each other. They confront Dooku a second time and during the conflict Anakin turns on his master and it becomes a general free for all. Dooku is slain and then Obi Wan knocks Anakin over the edge but when he reaches for him, Anakin decides to let go rather than be helped by his master.

I can't decide whether they go to a Volcano planet to find Dooku or if he's hiding on Coruscant (I prefer Coruscant but theres been talk of a volcano set). I also can't decide if Padme goes with them (to the Volcano world) and for what reason if she did...


(either by Obi Wan or Anakin)

So yeah, VADER does kill him.;)

Tycho
03-25-2002, 09:43 PM
A little off the topic of Dooku, but see what you guys can do to relate this. * Yes you've read this post in 2 other threads because I found one on Palpatine after I couldn't control myself and just posted away!

I just figured it out with my infamous friend Doug (Steingrabber)!

Palpatine is probably an aged, old Sith Lord masterminding this from his firery lair in the bowels of Coruscant's molten core (deep in the pit of Hell).

He has manufactured the perfect Clone of himself, and THAT CLONE masquerades as Darth Sidious as well. Nothing can be traced to the real Sith Lord we know as "Emperor Palpatine."

While the Clone encourages Yoda to take control of Kaminos Clones, a renegade Jedi Count Dooku is ripping apart the Republic in Civil War, and that same Dooku goades Obi-Wan to destroy the Sith - he TELLS Obi-Wan that Palpatine is the Sith Master. (While Dooku really is the Sith Lord Tyrannus now).

The other Jedi won't believe Obi-Wan about Palpatine, or they will because Dooku will be found to be a Sith Lord in reality, but Obi-Wan will set out to destroy Palpatine anyway!

Meanwhile, the Chancellor Clone will feed Anakin's ego and insinuate that the Jedi are bad and they won't let him love or tend to his girlfriend or mother - his only family. He may learn the truth about Dooku being his father, and irregardless, if Dooku is not, it wont' affect this theory.

But Palpatine will ask Anakin to become his protector, and then Obi-Wan, a Jedi Anakin is already angry with, will arrive to try and kill the Chancellor, proclaiming he's a Sith Lord!

The Duel in the Lava!

Palpatine is then killed by Obi-Wan, and the Jedi are blamed for starting the Clone Wars, trying to take over with these armies, and assasinating the Chancellor!

But it's a miracle: the Chancellor actually survived his terrible wounds ! - and must make the saddest decision of his career - he must order the extermination of the Jedi Knights!

It's a perfect set-up! WOW!!!!

Tycho
03-27-2002, 03:49 AM
I want to recant.

I don't think Palpatine is a clone. But I do think that Anakin will try to protect him and Obi-Wan will try and kill him.

The attempt to assasinate the Supreme Chancellor will not play well to the Jedi's public relations. The Great Purge will still happen as I suggested - lynch mobs basically - and Obi-Wan will be blamed - however, I don't think any version of Palpatine will actually die.

It would cheapen Ian's whole performance in TPM!

Rollo Tomassi
03-27-2002, 02:27 PM
The Jedi plotting against the Benelovent Chancellor turned Emperor Palpatine would be an excellent excuse for him to order "Wipe them out! ALL of them..." and turn public perception against the Jedi instigators of the Clone Wars. And having Palpatine be present during the BATTLE would be repeating the theme of the Emperor watching Vader and Luke duel and egging them on in ROJ. However, the battle seems to be getting a little crowded if Padme is there as one idea suggested, Dooku being present in another version, and now Palpatine in this one. I think Anakin and Obi Wan should be left alone as much as possible during the battle.

How's this for a compromise? I've already stated Anakin should keep his witnessing of Padme and Obi Wan to himself until later in the movie (rather than attacking outright). During this time, he and Obi Wan go back to the council to decide what to do about Palpatine. Anakin overhears this seditious conference and drops dime on the Jedi (whom he hates) to the Emperor (who he likes). Palpatine sends Anakin and Obi Wan to find the rogue Dooku on the Volcano planet for two reasons. To get rid of Dooku and to get them away from Coruscant when Palpatine declares the Jedi a menace and orders them to surrender or die. Instead of a direct attempt on Palpy, an implied attack is used against the Jedi and shows us that Anakin has began to fall to the Dark Side.

Still working out details on that one though...

Jedi Clint
03-27-2002, 03:01 PM
It has been my assertion for quite some time that the Jedi will rebel against Palpatine after he has unified the divided Republic into his Empire. But I think this order will be given toward the movie's close (after the duel and after the Jedi make it known that they oppose the Empire.....I doubt there will be many left to begin with), and that we may only see one Jedi (Kenobi) hunted at the very end by Vader. Although I could see Mace becoming one with the force as was mentioned in the Boba vs. Mace theory many times in this discussion.

I agree that Kenobi and Anakin should be alone for the most part during their duel, and the only person I can see being present during this event is Palpatine. That is another reason why I feel Coruscant would be the best setting for their fight. Kenobi could report to Yoda and the few remaining Jedi that Palpatine is THE Sith Lord.

I still don't think that Anakin has any contact with Padme or Kenobi before the events of E3, but I like your setup for Anakin's resentment toward his former friend and another reason for him to allow his relationship with his mate to slip completely away via Palpatine's manipulation. How about this. Padme sends for Kenobi who is fighting on Alderaan for Organa. Palpatine somehow spies on their discussion. Padme mentions Anakin's recent behavior and how it is ruining their relationship. Obi Wan mentions that his reltionship with the Palpatine is the cause. Padme tells Obi Wan that she is pregnant. They share a moment. When Palpatine presents the footage to Anakin, he manipulates it to appear that they are against him and are somehow together. He could also edit out the part where she tells Kenobi she is pregnant.

Tycho
03-27-2002, 03:35 PM
I'm sorry Rollo. Your story lines are good, but my opinion differs.

There is no volcano planet. I don't care if Rick McCallum goes and stuffs himself into a volcano to find a location for E3 - they just might need to be in that type of setting to simulate being in the core of Coruscant. The decent into Hell of mythology. Into the darkest basement of the most corrupt planet filled with intrigue, subterfuge, and political conspiracies gone straight to Hell. Down there, through tunnels under Palpatine's offices and sleeping quarters, is how our good Chancellor escapes detection while he tends to his Sith ways. We didn's SEE Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, or Gary Condit and Shandra Levy, so it is possible. Rumor has it that George W. Bush sneaks away late at night and practices the "black art" of Fun with Phonics! :D

I think that if Anakin even thinks Dooku is his father, and Obi-Wan learns the truth, or kills his father, it will be all the more reason to hate Obi-Wan.

Dooku will be long out of the way before Obi-Wan and Anakin fight. You're right though that Anakin will let all this stuff festor inside of him...

I don't know where Padme might be, except as a hostage of Palpatine's so-to-speak. He won't keep her with him. Unless he's bragged to her and told her everything.

Then asked Anakin to be his protector and insinuated something was going on between Obi-Wan and Padme (maybe - this storyline is doubtful).

But then when Anakin comes to save Palpatine from Obi-Wan (and fights Obi-Wan), he'll tell Obi-Wan that he's crazy. Palpatine is not a Sith! Maybe Anakin knows the truth now (about Palpatine) but keeps the Chancellor's secret because the Sith offer him more than the Jedi "who betrayed him." So when Palpatine "denies it," Padme is there, to also insist that Palpatine is a Sith, and instead Palpatine says to Anakin "I told you so. She's in on this whole thing too. " So Anakin believes his wife was conspiring with the enemy. As Obi-Wan advances on Palpatine, who is still playing innoncent (yeah - every Chancellor keeps a summer home in Hell - didn't you know that???) Anakin leaps to his defense and fights. Padme escapes in the commotion to go and get help arresting the Chancellor - but she is captured by the Emperor's Guards and taken away to hold as insurance or execute. Meanwhile, Palpatine goades the fight on and Padme's distress is sensed by Anakin who slips up, and Obi-Wan defeats him - Anakin getting slashed badly and falling towards the lava but barely hanging on. Obi-Wan, disheartened, rushes to save Anakin, but the Royal Guards come rushing him and he can't get to Anakin in time. His padawan falls into the lava and is presumed dead. Obi-Wan takes his lightsaber and makes a hasty retreat.

Now finding the other Jedi becomes his greatest priority, as all hope seems lost and he doesn't know what else to do!

Padme is transferred to the custody of Clone Troopers who are so busy in their engagement in the war, that their younger protege's are entrusted with the prisoner. But they are not Republic Clone Troopers, they are Confederates! Their superior, Boba Fett is coming to collect the pregnant woman from his junior cadets entrusted with her captivity, when the order comes down to execute her. A young Confederate Clone with a lopsided grin things this is an immoral order - to kill a pregnant woman - especially when he never had the chance to even have a mother. He springs her and when she questions him, he says "Maybe you'd like it back in your cell Your Highness?"

Meanwhile, Yoda has learned of Anakin's turn and knows the importance of Padme's unborn child (singular). He contacts his allies in the Senate that still believe in the Jedi (Bail Organa and JarJar Binks) and arrange safe passage for her and dispatches Mace Windu to rescue her.

The young clone gone "Solo" helps get Padme started on her way to safety, but Boba Fett arrives - as does Mace. The Clone's betrayal must be dealt with, as must the Senator's execution order - but first things first - the murderer who took the life of Boba's father must be brought to justice!

As Mace gets trapped, he sacrafices himself to allow the others to get the Senator pregnant with "the Jedi's future" away to safety. Fett, frustrated with one distintegration that he couldn't keep a trophy from, stalks off and finds a target of JarJar Bink's ship. Fett (in Slave-One?) destroys the Gungan and his ship for good, and the Senator is presumed dead.

Yoda arrives with Bail Organa later after Fett has gone to report to his employers, including a new mysterious Sith Enforcer cloaked in all black!

Organa laments that they are too late and Padme is dead. Yoda senses she is not, and Padme and a 9 year-old Clone boy step out of the shadows with two new-born babies. (maybe born now). The Clone Boy says he must run and follow his own path to survive. Bail and Yoda leave with Padme and her offspring to escape wherever they are at, and start down the path that will bring them to Alderaan - possibly by way of Dagobah.

Because of Dagobah's position on the MidRim, and Coruscant and Alderaan both being in the Core Systems, I think it is likely that Padme as a prisoner might have been being returned to Geonosis to face the execution she avoided in E2. That is where she will meet the young Han Solo. And that is why they go by Dagobah on the way back to Alderaan. Geonosis is on the Outer Rim, then they have to pass Dagobah to head back towards the Core. Meanwhile, if Bail and Yoda decide to split up, Obi-Wan can meet Yoda on Dagobah and pick up Luke, and head out-bound from the Core, while Bail takes Padme and Leia inbound to Alderaan. Yoda stays behind to hide and make sure anyone picking up their trail is never able to survive to follow it!

Rollo Tomassi
03-27-2002, 04:19 PM
Okay. I'll set aside the Volcano planet theory if you toss the twlve year old Han Solo stuff. I never really liked the volcano planet stuff anyway because I've always thought the action should take place deep within Coruscant. But volcanos have been mentioned so I'm keeping my options open. Han Solo being in the film, though, is a contrivance that eats at me like a raw cancer.

However, I would rather see new worlds like Alderaan, Mandalore, and a Volcano world, than return to Geonesis or Naboo or someplace we've already seen.

Keeping Dooku alive was just an excuse for Chris Lee to have more scenes in the movie. Killing him off towards the beginning of the film works for me, like we decided in the first draft. But again, Dooku being a dad is a dubious connection that takes away from the main conflict between Anakin and Obi Wan and Palpy's influence on all that. As JediClint pointed out:

Act 1

Anakin vs. Dooku.
Republic vs. Confederacy.
Meeting between Padme and Kenobi.

Act 2

Consolidation of the 2 warring factions into the new order - Palpatine's Empire.
The confrontation between Kenobi and Skywalker.

Act 3

Introduction of Darth Vader.
Birth of Twins.

End of Dooku/Clone War. Rise of Empire. End of Jedi Order. Anakin vs. Obi Wan. Rise of Vader. Padme escapes/Twin's birth. Rise of Rebellion/Luke is A New Hope.

These are the main points of the third movie. Anakin's paternity isn't an issue.

Smaller points such as the Mace/Fett fight, whether the Clone War finale takes place on Alderaan or Geonesis or a new planet like Mandalore, where Anakin fights Obi Wan, whether Palpatine or Padme are present for it, how she escape exactly, etc. are minor cosmetic problems connecting the bigger ones. There are several solutions.


So what we have now is a new minor villain character and Aurra Sing both rumored to be in Episode III. What do you guys think? I am clueless as to where Aurra fits into all this.
Is she hunting Jedi along with Fett for Jabba the Hutt, who is in cahoots with the Emperor?

Oh well, I continue to plug away, keeping the variant points in my head.

Cheers! to a great thread!

Tycho
03-27-2002, 04:33 PM
I still think Aurra Sing is hired by Dooku to watch over his family to ensure Anakin is protected.

I think she does other jobs most of the time, but in dangerous moments in Anakin's life, such as the Pod Race and what Sebulba might've tried to do to him, she is there to protect him.

Maybe she quit. Who knows? It's not like you wouldn't think that the best way to protect someone in a pod race is to enter it yourself.

Dud Bolt was actually qualified and hired to be Sebulba's body guard. He was supposed to take out Gasgano I believe, as this was the next favored podracer expected to win.

I know about the plot with Wan Sandage, Aldor Beedo, and whichever ones it was (to assasinate Sebulba), but I don't think Sebulba had any idea about that, nor did he hire Dud Bolt to deal with that situation.

Just the same, with Aurra Sing's training, she would know to operate just like any other assassin - you have to enter the race if you want to even get close to any of those guys! (most likely).

Whatever the case, Aurra wasn't going to do any good just standing there in that one position. But I think she was hired as Anakin's protector. If she was trying to simply assassintate him, or someone else, she could have taken the shot from right there.

Rollo Tomassi
03-27-2002, 04:45 PM
Maybe not "protect" as much as "keep tabs on"...but what will she be doing in III? And what's your theory on the new bad guy?

Jedi Clint
03-27-2002, 04:52 PM
Isn't it only rumor that Sing is in AOTC?

I think that the new villan will most likely be a military leader.

Tycho
03-27-2002, 05:39 PM
I have to think more on this about Aurra Sing.

Anakin may decide to Punish Her for not protecting his mother. Who knows...???

The new bad guy in a minor role would be Tarkin if I had to bet on it!

He seems too important in ANH to just not give any backstory on HIM!

Meanwhile, heads up: Garm Bel Ibis has been on the Holonet News if you are following that (find it from the Official Site). I think that he will make it out of Zahn's books and into the movies. That Lucas gave Zahn that tid-bit of the Alliance being formed by Alderaan, Chandrilla, and Corellia.

The Tanitive IV was a Corellian Counselor Vessel staffed by Alderaanian soldiers protecting their princess.

And someone related to Mon Mothma has been mentioned in the news. Chandrilla opposes the Military Creation Act and its own peace-keeping force is out on strike in protest. Their actions are privately condoned by someone that's possibly Mon Mothma's father. Yup!

Anyway, in all of this, don't forget Tarkin. I have mentioned in this thread (pages ago) what role I think he'll play. I don't believe McCallum or anyone else that says he's not in the movie. I think it's a spoiler, and LFL doesn't want that out now. It specifically spoils why the Confederacy agrees to surrender and be reabsorbed into the Republic-turned-Empire.

Eternal Padawan
04-13-2002, 04:24 PM
I have just read through this entire exhaustive thread about all the potential plotlines of Episode III and beyond, both movie wise and EU wise and I see no mention, NOT ONE SINGLE MENTION, of two of the most important characters in the entire saga.

I believe some revisions are in order.

Tycho
04-13-2002, 06:20 PM
Somebody has to be suckered into asking: "now who would that be?"

The answers could be (and I disagree that they are important at all): R2-D2 and C-3PO.

Or this could be a joke, in which case I'll guess Fode and Beed?

Yes, well I forgot the all-important scene where Ann and Tan Gella have their midichlorians checked by Dr. Evazan.

:rolleyes:

Now do enlighten us....

Eternal Padawan
04-14-2002, 10:11 AM
Well there's certainly a difference between "the two MOST important" and "two OF the most important" but yes, I was referring to R2 and 3PO. Even if they are not integral to the plot, I think you still need to find a place for them in the story.

I've also been thinking about the whole "Do we reveal Anakin to be Vader/wait until the ESB/ROJ" debate. I am in the camp that says let Anakin's fall be shown. BUT, I think there's a possible solution and I want to ask you guys what you think. The name of the game is diversionary tactics. The way you don't think Vader is Anakin is if you think Vader is somebody else. So which character has enough onscreen presence and is expendable, so that you could take his "lifeless body" away towards the begining of the film and through the clever use of editing and whatnot, when Vader shows up at the end, you assume it's that person instead of Anakin. I submit Mace Windu as a likely candidate. Mace is mortally wounded during the opening battle or sequnce or whatever. He is taken to a repair bay, but at some point you stop looking at him directly and the rest of the time you are (incorrectly) inferring that Mace is lying on the slab, when in fact, it's the mangled body of Anakin brought in later. When Vader shows up later to confront Obi Wan and Obi Wan says "You!" the audience interprets his recognition as that of Mace Windu. So when ESB rolls around and Vader reveals his paternal lineage to Luke everybody is still (a little) surpised.

bigbarada
04-19-2002, 12:41 AM
Does Tarkin necessarily need backstory before Ep4? Neither Darth Maul nor Jango Fett, both 2-bit-one-movie villains, had a backstory. Simply because they didn't need it. Darth Maul kills Qui-Gonn and alerts the Council to the Sith's re-emergence; Jango provides the source for the clone army and is the father of Boba; Tarkin envisions and supervises the construction of the Death Star and dies with it. He has no other purpose in the saga.

bigbarada
04-19-2002, 12:55 AM
Oh yeah, Artoo saves the day and Threepio gets blown up and put back together by the end of the film.;)

Actually, I see the droids hanging on Padme's coattails for most of the film. With Threepio becoming her personal gopher during her pregnancy. He will probably get his gold covering from her while on Naboo, cuz we all now how concerned Naboo is with image and appearance.

Although I wouldn't put it past GL to have them witness Obi-Wan's and Anakin's duel and Anakin's "death."

Tycho
04-19-2002, 04:00 AM
Good point about Tarkin, compared to Jango and Maul, Big B.

"I don't know," is my answer. I'm a fan of Tarkin's so I kind of hope. Also he is not an 'action villain,' so that might mean Tarkin needs other parts to make his role's iportance (besides Peter Cushing's classic acting).

In either case, thank you for providing a very logical answer! Good work Big Barada!

Taichi
04-20-2002, 04:00 PM
I think "Fall of the Republic" would be a more fitting name for Episode III

oh, and for the record, wasn't this topic originally about Mace?

Tycho
04-20-2002, 04:14 PM
This thread became the definitive "secret" plot reveal thread for Episode 3. That's pretty much "official" with everyone posting here.

Rollo Tomassi started this thing jumping when he snagged a great bit of the most plausible plot, and we've built on it ever since.

In light of the E2 comic book being released, a couple updates to this thread are necessary:

As of yet, Anakin has no father. I still hope he does. I do not like the immaculate conception theory, and I think there's more Shmi is not telling. Unless: the comic and novel were not allowed to reveal a secret scene we'll be seeing in the movie for the first time. (highly unlikely though).

Palpatine is not a clone with any evidence possible, and no mention of midichlorians or techniques to clone them, or eradicate them from the natural genetic development in the galaxy (or in clone soldiers) has ever been mentioned.

We will see what Episode 3 does to highlight any of this in the future...

Wooooof
04-20-2002, 04:39 PM
The immaculate conception thing doesn't really bother me, as it is not unique to Christianity. That theme repeats itself in mythology from many different culture. Besides GL says that it's not supposed to allude to Christ, it's meant to be about symbiosis and the next stage in evolution. Wierd, but at least it drops the religious overtones. In fact, I think the only reason GL introduced the midis to begin with was because he was uncomfortable with people trying to turn his Force concept into it's own religion.

I really hope Palpatine is not a clone, that would completely destroy the whole point of his character. He's intended to be the ultimate two-faced villian, not just some evil guy and his captive clone.

Tycho
04-20-2002, 05:41 PM
Totally agree with you about Palpatine! Totally! :)

Omega Fett
04-21-2002, 01:06 AM
seriously that would just be plain stupid having him as a clone but as we all do know he is cloned in the dark horse comics but thats after the all of the movies

2-1B
04-21-2002, 01:58 AM
Cool artwork B, a friend of mine is huge on D&D, I'm gonna show him your work. :)

As for Tarkin and the Death Star, it looks like AOTC might have something to do with it. But even if the rumors are true that the DS makes a "cameo" in AOTC, it's still possible that a top ranking officer (Tarkin) could actually be involved in it's final planning several years later.




On a general note, do you think oafy-wan ever comes back here to smile at the fact that his one singular post has blossomed into an 11 page (and counting) thread? :D

Beast
04-21-2002, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
Cool artwork B, a friend of mine is huge on D&D, I'm gonna show him your work. :)

As for Tarkin and the Death Star, it looks like AOTC might have something to do with it. But even if the rumors are true that the DS makes a "cameo" in AOTC, it's still possible that a top ranking officer (Tarkin) could actually be involved in it's final planning several years later.

On a general note, do you think oafy-wan ever comes back here to smile at the fact that his one singular post has blossomed into an 11 page (and counting) thread? :D
Wow Caeser, I agree....BigB is a great artist, I never even noticed that link before, glad you mentioned it. I wonder if he's ever tried his hand at Star Wars charecters before? If so, I would love to see some of that. What ya say, BigB? :D

I agree, I think McCallum has no clue what Lucas plans for E3, him saying that Tarkin won't be in it is about as reliable as your average fan boy. Wasn't he the same one that said we wouldn't see Boba in the prequels, about the time E1 was to open? :)

I hope he does, I wish I could start a thread that was so popular. Only time I ever have come close is posting images of the carded figures. Wherever Oafy-Wan is, I am sure he's smiling. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

bigbarada
04-25-2002, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by Caesar

Cool artwork B, a friend of mine is huge on D&D, I'm gonna show him your work.




Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Wow Caeser, I agree....BigB is a great artist, I never even noticed that link before, glad you mentioned it. I wonder if he's ever tried his hand at Star Wars charecters before? If so, I would love to see some of that. What ya say, BigB? :D



Thanks guys! I do have drawings I have done of Star Wars characters; but I have to post them in a completely separate section of Elfwood. I just haven't gotten around to scanning them yet. Laaaazy.

Back to the point, I totally agree with Wooooof ;) about Palpatine. I can see what GL was getting at with the "immaculate conception" idea also. He said it was about symbiosis, so I guess the "concieved by the midichlorians" idea is here to stay. I'm actually not worried about it one way or the other.

Tycho
04-25-2002, 02:14 AM
That bothers me because it makes it sound as if the midichlorians are sentient life-forms.

I don't believe they are at all.

Even if we all agree on that, which I do NOT assume (and we meaning the "Mace's Death Thread Club Membership we've got going here," others WILL believe the midichlorians decided to conceive a new life in Shmi Skywalker, to "balance the Force."

I'd first rather believe Anakin has a father - or more literaly - a male counterpart's "donation" to Shmi was necessary for Anakin to be born. Whether it was forbidden love or not (and that would make the best story were it the forbidden love of a Jedi) or whether it was rape, artificial impregnation etc. due to some events related to her enslavement, etc., or all part of the Sith's plot to make prophesies come true, and then warp them into what will serve the Dark Side, any of that would sound better than immaculate conception.

I don't like the idea that someone born "more pure" (as in without original sin) is what is required to be the ultimate savior. This is very true, though undoubtedly influenced by some anger of mine towards popular acceptance of Christ's immaculate conception, but it also rings true about my feelings towards any hero of any legend being immaculately conceived. If the character is human at all, they should be in bed with the same flaws and sins of all our forefathers. Besides, since I believe the Christ conception was founded in lies to protect an unwed, pregnant mother, I can't stand the fact that this kind of thing gets popularized even in fictional hero legends, creating the virtuous and pious out of lies and deceit to begin with. It doesn't change the value of the man, but it changes the perception that we all can't aspire to be as good as that man, no matter what are the sins of our mothers.

Anyway, back to Anakin. If the midichlorians do conceive him, then there are still 2 possibilities. I'd rather believe the first I'll propose: it was an accident. A freak of nature like the a-sexual or sex-switching frogs that were discussed in Jurassic Park will lend to single-sex reproduction. Then the Force, as a conceptual process in the universe, is like God is possibly defined by the non-believer: to be hope, trust in fate, if nothing else. The phrase "hope to God" could be used by the non-believer as much as the true-believer, but have slightly different meanings, but the same cause-and-effect relationship towards the phrase's origin: to mean to hope for a favorable outcome when events go beyond one's control would be the same. Thus the reference to the midichlorians deciding there needs to be a balance to the Force would be allusionary, not literal.

The second and last choice is that the midichlorians did literally decide to fulfill the prophesy. In which case there probably are "Little Johnny midichlorians," and "Little Susie ones," and they elect a board of directors, adopt bi-laws, and start birthing Jedi after some "balacing the Force resolution" gets passed in midichlorian court, similar to how the Military Creation Act gets passed in the Senate. Only you have to watch out for Nute-Chlorians and Midi-Fettrians disrupting the process.

I'm trying to illustrate how ridiculous that sounds to me. Next will be midichlorian action figures. I can see it now. The figures, on a scale of 1 million times their actual size, will be available in specially marked packages of Captain Clones cereal and you'll be able to get them in different neon colors, and when you throw them on the refridgerator or on Mom's stanied glass windows, they sort of ooze down the surface until you wash them off with soap and water until it's time to combine them all in some kind of putty mold so you can assemble the next version of a 12" Anakin.

I'm sorry, but it just sounds stupid to me.

Eternal Padawan
04-27-2002, 07:33 AM
It's like the midichlorians are like the "whos" in the Grinch movie...all living on snowflakes in their own little world. :D

I agree, that's a silly idea.

I think Shmi is from a human offshoot species that is capable of reproducing asexually. She doesn't know this becasue she's been a slave since she was born and doesn't know her own physiology.

Whether Anakin had a Father or not shouldn't preclude him from being the one in the prophecy. he can be 'special" enough without having to be 'special born".


Here's something I was thinking about. In "our" plotline, where and who says the "I have a bad feeling about this" line.?

Eternal Padawan
04-30-2002, 12:13 AM
Almost finished reading the AOTC novel. No mention of Anakin's father being Dooku, Sidious, Palpatine, or Qui Gon. No mention of cloned chancellors. So if this thread is dedicated to the MOVIE-Version of Episode III and not possible hypothetical EU theories (albeit some good ones) how does this affect anyones ideas about what will happen in III?

I also noticed Sido-Dyas changed to Sifo-Dyas and refers to an actual Jedi who died ten years ago. Which puts a minor kink in the Sido-Dyas is a play on words for Sidious and will change how or what Dooku says to Obi Wan about "Sido-Dyas" to put him on Palpatines trail.

Other than that, does anyone have any revisions they might want to throw into the mix to discuss? This thread is kind of stagnant. Let's get it jumping with fresh AOTC "facts".

Jedi Clint
04-30-2002, 01:00 AM
Anakin marries Padme and that is against the Jedi code. The two believe that if he does this, he will be expelled from the order. I am not so sure. We are intentionally left to wonder about what the council will do when it finds out about their marriage.......if it finds out. They could continue with their plan to keep their union a secret. That WOULD destroy them (in their own estimation). Can the Jedi afford to expel Anakin given the state of chaos the Republic is in? Even though he breaks the rules will they allow him to remain a Knight. If not, what would an ambitious young man like Anakin do to fulfill his sense of purpose? Join the Republic military and become a great and feared commander?

Tycho
04-30-2002, 02:07 AM
I don't believe that if Dooku is NOT the father, or even if there is no father, it would change our plot scenerio. Nor would the absence of midichlorians from Episode 2.

Our basic E3 story structure of when conflicts occur, and between who, should still stand the test of scrutiny, after the entire plot detail of Episode 2 is revealed.

I think it is time for me to re-read the Mace's Death Thread in its entirety though, and make sure we're completely on the right track.

Rollo once tried to summarize the plot as we've determined it so far. I think it's time for me to look into that again. Rollo, you too.

I've read the screenplay and the comic adaptation for Episode 2. I think the only part that we're missing is the all important scene when Yoda explains the need for buckets and tissue paper in the galaxy far, far away. Otherwise, we've probably got everything ;)

Eternal Padawan
04-30-2002, 09:03 AM
Evidence for Tycho's "Oft Repeated Themes" theory.

Dooku tells Obi Wan something and Obi Wan replies "No! That's Impossible!" and then later on he says "I'll never join you." hmmmm..that sounds familiar. ;)

I think Owen says "I've got a bad feeling about this." when Obi Wan brings Luke to stay with them. The line is almost always used for levity in tense scenes, and after the completely drudgy and tense film, it will be a nice release to hear the line and see the exhasperated look on Owens face at the thought of raising a kid and Beru cuddling and cooing with the small infant. Then Obi Wan turns and walks into the sunsets and the music swells and we all tear up because after 30 years, it's finally over.

chewie
05-01-2002, 12:48 AM
From what I know of EII spoilers, we can firmly end all speculation of Palpatine having a clone.

The Jango clones are "special" clones that age twice the normal human rate. This means that clones are apparently born as babies, not full grown adults. This relates to Palpatine not having a clone because Palpatine would have had to been cloned the moment he was born to get a clone that looked the same age as him.

His plotting would have required getting a clone VERY far in advance of his latest schemes. At least no later than his late 30s or mid 40s of age in order to get a clone that would be developed enough to look like him when the time came to use it. And since apparently only Jango's clones age twice as fast as normal, even that would not have worked for Palps.



I can already hear people saying that Palpatine is using a shapeshifter (like Zam Wessel) now instead of a clone....

Beast
05-01-2002, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by chewie
From what I know of EII spoilers, we can firmly end all speculation of Palpatine having a clone.

The Jango clones are "special" clones that age twice the normal human rate. This means that clones are apparently born as babies, not full grown adults. This relates to Palpatine not having a clone because Palpatine would have had to been cloned the moment he was born to get a clone that looked the same age as him.

His plotting would have required getting a clone VERY far in advance of his latest schemes. At least no later than his late 30s or mid 40s of age in order to get a clone that would be developed enough to look like him when the time came to use it. And since apparently only Jango's clones age twice as fast as normal, even that would not have worked for Palps.

I can already hear people saying that Palpatine is using a shapeshifter (like Zam Wessel) now instead of a clone....
That doesn't end any speculation at all. Maul was in his 20's, and was no doubt just like Jedi's are, trained from an early age. Which mean's that Sidious had his plans in motion already 20+ years at least. Plus someone trained Sidious as well, prior to that. Unless of course he turns out to be the Jedi Sifo-Dyas that died long before the events of E1. He could have faked his death, after being corrupted by the Sith Holocron. If he can set up Maul's training for around 20 years in advance, he can definatly set his clone up that far ahead of time.

Palpatine is around 50 some years old at the point of E1, which means a clone aging twice the normal rate of a human would have been created roughly 25 years prior. The Kamino beings can alter the clones to age at twice the normal rate, so they can do the same with Sidious clone. Perhaps as far as we know, they can even increase it faster then that.

The only real "special" clone is Boba Fett, as he doesn't age at twice the rate, that the other clones do. He wasn't taught by those teaching devices on Kamino either. And his genetic structure wasn't modified to make sure he followed commands. There is still a mystery to Sidious, until we see EIII. Whichever way Lucas goes with what happens, I will be happy. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Jedi Clint
05-01-2002, 01:35 AM
Palpatine can't be Sifo-Dyas. Mace Windu, Yoda, and Obi Wan Kenobi knew Sifo-Dyas. He died 10 years prior to AOTC. In other words he died about the same time TPM took place. Palpatine became Supreme Chancellor at that time. They would notice that the Supreme Chancellor and their fellow Jedi Master were one in the same. The Kaminoans claim that it was Sifo-Dyas that selected Jango Fett, even though Jango Fett claims that it was Tyranus (Dooku) that employed him as template for the clones. Obi Wan Kenobi could not sense a lie in either Lama Su or Jango Fett in regards to this issue. The facts I presented here are from the novel. The mystery was intentionally left open.

At some point Palpatine forges a relationship with Dooku. Dooku leaves the Jedi, and begins his new public life as a Count.

If I had to guess, I'd say that Palpatine tried to replace Maul with Sifo-Dyas, but for some reason the arrangement did not work out as he expected, and Sifo-Dyas was terminated. Or, Palpatine at least forged a relationship with the Jedi Master in order to manipulate him. Perhaps Sifo-Dyas initiated contact with the Kaminoans and arranged for the creation of the clone army. Dooku locates a source for the clones in Jango Fett.

Here is another take:

Dooku claims to be Sifo-Dyas. Sifo-Dyas was either killed by Dooku for his identity, or he was simply slain in the line of duty and Dooku assumed his identity in order to deal with the Kaminoans.

Tycho
05-01-2002, 02:12 AM
Nice to see you back JC.

Though I beg to disagree.

I read the same material you did and came away with a completely different take.

The Jedi did not know Darth Maul's name. I think Obi-Wan assumes that Sido-Dyas, was Darth Maul - who did die 10 years ago.

Now if they changed that to Sifo-Dyas (and Siffu is a term for teacher in the martial arts, interestingly enough), then Siffu Dyas might have changed his name to Siffu Dooku, hence Sifo-Dyas and then it misleads everyone AWAY from Darth Sideous.

I'm reaching. But it sounds plausible.

bigbarada
05-01-2002, 02:20 AM
Reading the Ep2 comic also gave me the impression that Obi-Wan assumes Sifo-Dyas is Darth Maul. If Sifo-Dyas ordered the clone army then the Jedi would have known about it. The comic makes it seem that Obi-Wan is just playing along with the Kaminoans to try to get to the bottom of the mystery.

Eternal Padawan
05-01-2002, 08:18 AM
Reading the novel gave me the impression that Sifo-Dyas was a legitimate Jedi who died shortly after the events of TPM. The events in question are

Whether his death was unrelated to the Sidious/Dooku plot or not. As JediClint siggested maybe he was approached by Sidious and was destroyed after he turned him down.

Whether he actually made the clone order or if it was an impersonator (Sidious).

Either way. Dooku as Tyranus hired Jango as the template. Did the kaminoans ever meet Tyranus? Jango and Sidious are the only two people that know Tyranus and Dooku are the same guy.

Something else I read at the end of the novel. After Obi Wan tells Mace and Yoda what Dooku saod about Sidious controlling the Senate, Mace reasons they should start keeping an eye on the senate. That is tantamount to spying and will backfire in Episode III when the senate and the Republic find out the Jedi aren't above board as everyone thought they were. this gives Palpatine enough reason to brand them outlaws and start the purge. Clever Palpatine.

Tycho
05-01-2002, 11:08 AM
Well, not only that. But the Jedi are publically assumed to have started the cloning project in the first place, and Yoda is left but no resort but to using the Clones in actual combat as their "General."

It just hit me that's how Obi-Wan Kenobi becomes a General. He is regarded in that rank by the Clone Troopers who are sworn to obedience to the Jedi! Remember that's who they think commissioned their existance.

Anakin / Vader can get their fanatical obedience that way as well. It's so simple that I might have this all wrong. Then again, it was right in front of my face. Why didn't I see this before?

If Leia's message is taken literally:

"General Obi-Wan Kenobi (of the Clone Warriors - [LUKE - "You fought in the Clone Wars?" OBI-WAN "Yes I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father.") ..."Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars..."

All that literally could mean is that Obi-Wan led the Clone Troopers to fight on behalf of the Republic (and Bail Organa's missions he helped Palpatine send the troops on). It doesn't actually have to mean the Clone Wars fought any battles AT ALL on or near Alderaan! (Darn! - though there still could be one that has to do with Alderaan's disarmament). But Obi-Wan could serve the interests of the Republic Defense Secretary, who would be an appointed ALLY of Palpatine's - namely Bail Organa (who later secretly betrays him, then oppenly opposes him).

Yes, from the looks of the Prequels, Organa and Palpatine are friends! But Organa is a pacifist and falls for all of Palpatine's pretences at not wanting a war, "My negotiations will not fail!" and his unassuming answer to gaining power in the Senate - "I will relinquish emergency powers once this crisis has been dealt with."

It seems Organa will (during the prequels, or afterward) learn more than Palpatine wants him to. In the Expanded Universe, it was offered that ALDERAAN was a key WEAPONS and STARFIGHTER market for both some production, as well as research and development. Somewhere along the lines, they were disarmed (Palpatine gave Kuat Drive Yards and Sienar Fleet Systems the military contracts as political rewards). They must have been the "Enron" companies of his campaign finance committees. (no sarcasm intended - just the euphemism offered since Palpatine didn't need campaigners to RUN for office, but instead he needed them to keep support for holding power).

The only thing I hope is that we see Alderaan if it fits in there somehow. It's pretty pointless to blow it up (versus Geonosis or Naboo, or a setting we get to know) when the Death Star is fully operational later.

Another thing that has been going on in the novelization of AOTC and EU like Rogue Planet, is the origins of the Death Star.

In RP, Sienar came up with the designs. We also have the Maw Installation and whatever they did to complete the prototype - but Tarkin was invovled in this all along, so that much is consistant. Even in the EU though, we are missing a lot of gaps. Later reference to the Death Star project in the EU is mostly found in the Kevin J. Anderson "Jedi Academy" series from which Kyp Durron hails. This makes sense now, as does Admiral Daala even, what with the female captain of the Radiant VII we saw in TPM. Daala might not have ENTERED the Imperial Navy. She might have been in the officer program of the Republic, when it became the Imperial Navy.

Anyway, enough of the EU. I will ask Rick McCallum at the convention. Please address GENERAL Obi-Wan Kenobi - Clone Commander who "The Force can be a strong influence on the weak minded" for. Oh it makes perfect sense now!

DUH!

Darth Spectre
05-01-2002, 11:56 AM
Been reading the different thoughts expressed here about the Episode III plot, and some are very interesting indeed. Here are my thoughts on different ideas that have come up.

Some people seem to be confusing Bail Antilles with Bail Organa. Obi-Wan serves under Bail Organa, Leia's "father," not Antilles based on what we heard from Ep IV. The Clone Wars have to be almost over if not finished by the time Ep III begins because not only does Anakin have to fall, join the Sith and fight Obi-wan in one movie, but from everything I remember reading, the Jedi/Republic are victorious in the Clone Wars.

Boba might play a role in Ep III, even in Mace's death, though I do think it is much more likely that Anakin will kill him. It has been hinted at even before the Ep II novel came out that there might be a traitor on the Jedi Council. That would explain how Kamino was able to removed from the Jedi archives when Obi-Wan went looking for it. But with the Clones supposedly having been ordered but a Jedi named Sydo Das (something like that anyway...LOL), it also seems likely will find out that Palpatine had infiltrated the Jedi in the past, since Sydo Das and Sidious are way too close to be a coincidence.

Dooku will either die at Anakin's hands or be dead before III even begins. I don't see how else it could happen. I think we will see Anakin in Sith-like garb before he fights Obi-Wan, but not in Vader like armor until the very end of the movie. He may not even be referred to AS Darth Vader until after Obi does his number on him. I think final scene will either be Anakin having the armor put on him, or him entering Palpatine's chamber, kneeling before him and saying "What is thy bidding, my master?"

I think Obi Wan did know about Leia. I think he just believed, even for sexist reasons, that only Luke was capable of defeating Vader and the Emperor. And yes, if Obi-Wan does not take infant Luke to Dagobah before leaving for Tatooine, Lucas will drop the ball big time based on Luke's comments from Empire. I also think it would be really cool if right before Obi and Anakin fight , Obi-Wan says "I have been waiting for you, Anakin. We meet again at last." It would be a nice bookend to go with Vader's statement to him in Ep IV.

Tycho
05-01-2002, 01:19 PM
Darth Spectre:

Welcome to the Mace's Death Thread.

It's always good to have fresh blood ;)

Before you get too into that, please do go back and do some more reading. I think we've covered most of what you brought up.

We'd like to get you up to speed and see where we can go from their once we have your help. But "your training is not complete!" LOL

We have some specific plot reasons why "who will kill who" and what the circumstances of Obi-Wan's and Anakin's duel will be, as well as when Anakin will swear allegiance to Palpatine.

Anyway, your theories are interesting and I will consider them. Welcome aboard the Mace's Death Thread.

Anyone else care to comment on my General Obi-Wan Kenobi clues?

Darth Spectre
05-01-2002, 01:57 PM
Yes, I think I hadn't gotten through all of the pages when I wrote that first entry and then when I realized it...well, it was too late. Bail Organa's role in Ep III should be very interesting to watch indeed, as well as whether he makes it into Ep IV when the rumored "revamping" of the original trilogy takes place to make all 6 episodes flow more evenly.

I would guess that you are right that Obi-Wan serves Organa in fighting for his interests or on missions for him, as opposed to fighting on or near Alderaan itself, though we know anything is possible.

I enjoyed seeing the early plans for the Death Star in the EP II novel, and I would tend to throw a lot of the EU stuff out regarding that (and lots of other things too...LOL).

I like the theory behind why Obi-Wan is a general. Jedi leading the different clone armies into battle would make sense along those lines.

Jedi Clint
05-01-2002, 02:08 PM
I believe I have been suggesting, for some time, that the title of "General" was indeed due to the circumstances we see the Jedi placed in during AOTC (i.e. General Yoda).......perhaps not in this topic though. You bring up an interesting possibility in that Obi Wan doesn't have to serve on Alderaan for the OT lines regarding his involvement to hold true. I think you're right, but I think it also works out better if he is stationed on Alderaan. I don't think Anakin and Kenobi will have been together for quite some time before E3 opens. Same with Anakin and Padme.

As for Sifo-Dyas:

"The name, known to Obi Wan as that of a former Jedi Master,"
"If it was indeed Sifo-Dyas that commissioned an army of clones, then why hadn't Master Yoda or any of the others said anything about it?" Sifo-Dyas had been a powerful Jedi before his untimely death, but would he have acted alone on an issue as important as this?"
"The units you will soon see on the parade ground we started 10 years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they are mature and quite ready for duty."
"A bounty hunter named Jagno Fett," Lama Su offered without any hesitation. "We felt that a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Sifo-Dyas hand picked Jango himself."
"Sifo-Dyas explained to us the Jedi aversion to leading droids. He told us Jedi could only lead an army of life-forms."
"He took a deep breath, wondering how Sifo-Dyas, how any Jedi, could have so willingly and unilaterly crossed the line to create any army of clones."
"Sifo-Dyas. Isn't he the one who hired you for this job?"
"Never heard of him," Jango replied, and if there was a lie in his words, Obi Wan could not detect it.
"I was recruited by a man called Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden."
"Yes Master, they say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clone army almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?"
"No", Mace answered without hesitation, and without even looking to Yoda for confirmation. "Whoever placed that order did not have the permission of the Jedi Council."
"A clone army," Mace remarked, alone with Yoda once again, the hologram gone. Why would Sifo-Dyas........"
"When placed this order was, may provide insight,"

It is clear that he was a Jedi Master. He was killed about the same time TPM happened......probably shortly before......maybe after. He is not Palpatine.

Eternal Padawan
05-01-2002, 04:11 PM
Responses to Darth Spectre.

Any responses of mine (and by "mine" I mean Rollo ) you might read regarding Antilles/Organa, please consider that I am referring to Organa. (I was confused and I apologize. Hey, I knew who I was talking about...;))

I thought the traitor might have been Plo Koon since everybody likes him, but now I think the "traitor" is Dooku and changed the records when he left the order. No one bothered to chack on Kamino before so no one knows how long it's been since the records were changed. I also don't discount Clint's idea that Sifo-Dyas might have been involved and then eliminated, but that's an EU tale for another discussion.

I believe Dooku will be alive in III simply because he's alive at the end of II. If they were going to kill him off between II and III, Lucas would have simply offed him onscreen. Farther along in the thread (after the summary on page 8) I came to the conclusion that Dooku is getting to big for his britches and Sidious (as Palpatine) sicks the Jedi (specifically Anakin and Obi Wan) on his former partner. This frees up the appretice position for Anakin to step into as Vader. Whether this conflict takes place at the beginning of the film or in the second act is still up for debate. We have come up with both plausible scenarios.

I think Obi Wan probably knew about Leia also. He was in charge of Luke's security so he probably had Luke forefront in his thoughts on how to bring the Empire to its knees. So his comment reflected that. Yoda quickly "reminded" him that wasn't true. You never see Ben go "Wha? Wha? wha?" when Yoda says that.


I still say the final scene is Ben walking off into the sunset. it just seems totally appropriate for the end of the saga.
Tycho, sometimes the simplest explanations are the correct ones. ;)

Darth Spectre
05-01-2002, 04:30 PM
Good points. Also about Obi-Wan regarding Leia, he also knew immediately what Luke meant when he mentioned the "other" to him in Jedi.

Yes, Dooku could have changed the records also, I did think of that. When it was mentioned that only a Jedi could do it in the book, I was thinking (my opinion) that we were supposed to take it literally, that only a current Jedi could do it. I would hope Plo Koon wouldn't be the traitor since he is my favorite amongst the council members as well.

About Dooku, I agree he will probably be in EP III, I was just thinking of all the possibilities because, though it sounds morbid, Christopher Lee is getting up there and who knows if he will/would be up to task for Ep III. Though stunt doubles can help minimize that need too...LOL

Eternal Padawan
05-01-2002, 05:33 PM
Well, reading the new Jango Fett comic and the visual dictionary put a kibosh on the Mandalore idea at the beginning of the film. Apparently the Mandalorians (led by Jaster Mereel...what the??!) were around when Jango was a wee tyke and he's all thats left. So despite years of literature that said the Jedi wiped them out during the CLONE WARS, they apparently wiped them out long before that. Unless they've been in hiding and/or Dooku recreates them for the third Episode.

So I still say the movie opens up with a huge Hoth/SPR type battle...just not on Mandalore and not against Mandalorian Super Commandos(although it should...:rolleyes: ).

Eternal Padawan
05-01-2002, 05:44 PM
I just thought of something else. Anakin and Padme are married in secret. When does Obi Wan and The Council find out? Obi Wan has to figure it out around the time confides in him about the pregnancy. This might make Obi Wan angry enough to confront Anakin and thats when they start fighting. Or maybe she tells him and he's going to confront Ani but Padme begs him not to because the infants have to remain a secret from Anakin and Palpatine. And if the Council (specifically Mace and Yoda, being the only ones left alive) are helping her escape, they must figure it out, too. Although at that point it's probably moot if they know Anakin is married, seeing as how he is pure evil.

JarJar had a theory ( in another thread) that Boba is smitten with the beautiful Padme during the arena execution. Smitten enough that he is complicit in her escape in Episode III. That has possibilities, although if he came back and told Vader he has "disintegrated" her, I doubt he'd be the Empire's fave Bounty Hunter (or still breathing for that matter. Killing Vader's sweetie does NOT equal long term job security...) I'll try working that into the second draft if I can.

And finally, the theory that Jar Jar is the key to the Emperor's rise has already come true. Sort of. He is the one that presents the idea of emergency powers before the senate in II. Doing it again in III might seem repetitive. Anybody have a solution to that one?

Jedi Clint
05-01-2002, 06:04 PM
Did you skip this post EP?


Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Anakin marries Padme and that is against the Jedi code. The two believe that if he does this, he will be expelled from the order. I am not so sure. We are intentionally left to wonder about what the council will do when it finds out about their marriage.......if it finds out. They could continue with their plan to keep their union a secret. That WOULD destroy them (in their own estimation). Can the Jedi afford to expel Anakin given the state of chaos the Republic is in? Even though he breaks the rules will they allow him to remain a Knight. If not, what would an ambitious young man like Anakin do to fulfill his sense of purpose? Join the Republic military and become a great and feared commander?

Keeping it a secret seems to be foreshadowed in AOTC. I think the question is: How does that destroy them?

Eternal Padawan
05-02-2002, 12:56 AM
Actually, I was wondering more along the lines of WHEN do they find out. Not IF they find out. A preggers Padme pretty much gives up the "secret".

So something along the lines of Anakin comes back from naboo (after the wedding), tells the Council he's married, they kick him out and then a year or so later, he has to come back to join the war...or something like that.

Or

He and Padme really DO manage to keep it a secret until Padme meets with Obi Wan and tells him...everything. Marriage, pregnancy, the whole nine yards.

Jedi Clint
05-02-2002, 01:08 AM
I think the later sounds very likely. That situation provides a lot more stress on their relationship. Anakin keeping secrets from his Master and the Council doesn't make for very healthy relationships either ;)

Tycho
05-02-2002, 01:50 AM
I think Anakin leaves the Jedi Order between 2 and 3.

He will not be a Jedi at the start of 3, but Padme will not stay out of politics. She will insist on helping Palpatine, and Anakin will become Palpatine's protector, just as Obi-Wan comes prepared to say that the Supreme Chancellor is really a Dark Lord of the Sith and has to be destroyed. Obi-Wan will fight Anakin because the duel is to prevent the Jedi from usurping the clones and assassinating the Supreme Chancellor in order to take over the Republic in a coup de 'tat. In short, Palpatine will have the Jedi blamed for what is actually the fault of the Sith. Obi-Wan will be the posterboy in his plot. A fitting revenge agianst the young Jedi Master that caused him all that trouble.

Anakin will think Obi-Wan's gone crazy indeed. If Owen learns of this, that will be why he thinks Obi-Wan is nuts. And him attempting to assassinate the Supreme Chancellor only proves it.

To the public's eye.

Beast
05-02-2002, 01:55 AM
Love that theroy Tycho, and it fits perfectly in Anakin's close relationship to Palpatine in EII. The Supreme Chancellor taking time out of his busy day to be that caring and supportive Daddy that Anakin has never had. "You don't need guidance Anakin, I see you becoming the greatest of all Jedis." He sounds like a supportive Dad so much in that scene, but with undertones of the fact we know that Palpy is most likely grooming his new protegee for a time when Dooku gets to big for his britches. :evil: :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Beast
05-02-2002, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by Eternal Padawan
JarJar had a theory ( in another thread) that Boba is smitten with the beautiful Padme during the arena execution. Smitten enough that he is complicit in her escape in Episode III. That has possibilities, although if he came back and told Vader he has "disintegrated" her, I doubt he'd be the Empire's fave Bounty Hunter (or still breathing for that matter. Killing Vader's sweetie does NOT equal long term job security...) I'll try working that into the second draft if I can.
It's mentioned in the Boba Fett: Fight for Survival book that he's smitten with Padme. And since that book is supposed to draw from the EII novel, and expand upon it, I consider it a good possibility that he is. It also talks about his confusion as he sees the clones that he knows look like his dad and himself, helping the Jedi's, the ones that just murdered his father. He comes back to Geonosis after it's calmed down some, buries his father and claims the armor. He then goes to track Dooku down for the money that Dooku owed his father. I think the whole book is a perfect set up for Boba's envolvment in Episode III.

Ani/Vader would feel betrayed by Padme anyway, when she acts against Palpatine and helps the Jedi. Palpatine may possibly order her death himself, or Anakin may even do it. Consider the fact that he would be turning against everyone. Boba Fett happens to run across her fleeing Coruscant and lets her go. If he's leading a squad of CloneTroopers at the time, he may kill them himself, taking revenge for them helping the Jedi that killed his father. Maybe using Mace's lightsaber that he aquires after killing him, as "proof" that she was protected by Mace, and killing her and him was his only choice. Presenting Windu's saber to Vader or Palpy would definatly be good enough to earn Fett brownie points, and excuse him killing Padme, if her death was not ordered. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Tycho
05-02-2002, 03:24 AM
JarJar means obviously lying that Fett killed Padme, not that she literally dies THEN. She obviously has to give birth.

And no I don't think Anakin will betray Padme. Feel that she betrayed him? Maybe. But he won't cross her. He's giving up everything for her...

so then again...hmmm. An intriguing question. Thanks JarJar. I'll have to think on this....

Beast
05-02-2002, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
JarJar means obviously lying that Fett killed Padme, not that she literally dies THEN. She obviously has to give birth.

And no I don't think Anakin will betray Padme. Feel that she betrayed him? Maybe. But he won't cross her. He's giving up everything for her...

so then again...hmmm. An intriguing question. Thanks JarJar. I'll have to think on this....
Yeah, lying to Palpy and Vader. Ani/Vader and Palpy have to think that Padme is dead at the end of EIII. If not, it's pretty silly to think with the resources of the Empire at their disposal, that they couldn't find her easily in the 16 or so years between E3 and E4 if they were looking for her.

Palpy may actually know she's alive, but comfort Vader about her death, and use that hate for the way the Jedi's fooled her and led her to her death, to make him hate them even more. Feeding his hate so he helps Palpatine hunt down and destroy those that took his wife from him. That way Vader also gets revenge against the person who really took his wife from him in EVI

But Palpy would let her live, if he knows, just incase Vader got out of his control, and then he could pull her out, and go. "Look my Apprentice, the Jedi's faked her death, and kept her from you. But look, I have returned her to you." Of course he never does that, and she dies sometime while Leia is still a small child. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Darth Spectre
05-02-2002, 10:34 AM
Anakin might leave the order before EP III, but that could create problems with continuity. At this point, the only real reason Anakin would have for leaving the order would be because of Amidala (either leaving voluntarily or forced out). Now, that is enough of a reason, mind you, but Anakin was also supposed to be a hero of the Clone Wars, so it would seem the Jedi cannot or do not force him out (no pun intended) for the marriage alone, nor does he leave just because of the marriage.

Obi-Wan and Anakin could fight for the reasons mentioned above by Tycho. But once again, the backstory we have been told before implies that Obi-Wan confronted Anakin trying to bring him back to the light side, and that is why they fought, his refusal. But these two ideas probably can work together.

This also reminds of something that struck me before. We all accept/want to see some version of the fiery pit/lava pit story that occurs during the Obi-Wan/Anakin final duel. It is possible that Lucas might change the entire way Anakin becomes Vader. This part of the backstory was really established in SW mythos because of the novelization of Jedi. But it was also in the same scene in that book that Obi-Wan tells Luke that Owen Lars was HIS brother, and that backstory seemingly will be erased by this film. SO...it is possible that the lava/fiery pit legend could be re-written too.

Tycho
05-02-2002, 10:50 AM
It's been noted before that at the core of most planets, is molten lava.

In mythology the journey into Hades is referred to also as the decent into Hell.

The direction? Down of course.

The lava pit duel, if still done, and if the original Ralph McQuarrie look still is kept up, is done in the bowels of Coruscant, near the planet's molten core.

The synonism with the Sith hiding for 1000's of years "underground" seems to apply then literally as well.

Darth Spectre
05-02-2002, 11:03 AM
Symbolically that would be perfect I agree. Seeing a physical hell even as Anakin descends into his own personal hell. I still wish they would have either shown examples of Anakin's dark nature a little in EP I or not have everyone basically other than Qui_gon pick up on bad vibes from him. I thought Lucas missed a golden oppurtunity in the pod race scene, when the engine was failing, to show Anakin's anger and how it could help him. I thought him getting really angry combined with his natural force talent could have helped reignite his engine and we would have early proof of his dark side tendencies. Anakin just seems like he is going to be so dark already in this one that I think it takes away from the Fallen Hero ideal. The greatest fallen heroes are the ones that seem so perfect, but yet still can't overcome their demons and fall. Anakin just seems like a troubled individual from the beginning (based on what others feel about him anyway) and I think that somehow lessens the impact of the fall.

DarthBrandon
05-07-2002, 03:21 AM
LIke the posts that eveyone put down sounds pretty darn good.
Here's some of my thoughts on Episode III. I do not really like the
idea of Booba (Boba Fett) sorry i couldn't resist), killing off Mace in
EIII because he deserves to die a true Jedi Master's death.
Common really Boba Fett taking out Mace, Can't see it.
What i could see is Mace being killed by Palpatine with Vader at his side in the Jedi Temple or him escaping with Padme to Alderaan.
Second I see Boba and Aurra Sing hunting down the Jedi along with other Rogue Jedi and the Dark Lord himself.
I also see another traitor in the Jedi organization possibly Plo or
Ki-Adi-Mundi, who knows maybe someone you'd least to expect.
As in the Novel ATOC someone in the Jedi order had to erase the
info in the Jedi archives.
Third the battle between Anakin,Dooku and Obi-wan sounds good
but i think Palpatine will be watching much closer than expected, I do not believe Anakin could survive purely on hatred, I think Palpatine uses the dark side to keep him around until Obi-Wan goes for help. Then Palpy will take him to his medical bay.
Fourth I like the idea of Tarkin in Episode III possibly setting the preparation stages for the Death Star in secret for Palpatine.
Fifth I believe Padme will make it to both Planet's (Dag & Ald).
Really liked the idea of her being Mon Mothma that's too cool.
I have all kinds of other ideas but it could take all week, I do have to say this no Chewie, Han, Falcon etc. They have no place in the Prequels, lets leave them in the original 3.

P.S. I really do like Boba, but him killing a Jedi Master no. Jedi yes

Tycho
05-07-2002, 03:55 AM
It should be obvious that Dooku erased the files, 10 years ago.

Kamino is so remote and previously unimportant, no one would go looking for it.

DarthBrandon
05-07-2002, 03:59 AM
True but i still think there is more surprises in store for the Jedi
Also it's not stated really that he himself did it, opening up a new
possibility that another person that could have done it.
What do you think ?

Darth Spectre
05-07-2002, 10:06 AM
Someone posted something about Tarkin earlier, saying no backstory was really needed for him leading up to Episode IV. I think backstory is needed. After all, Tarkin is the real villain of Ep IV and is controlling Darth Vader, who should be the 2nd most power man in the Empire. It would be good to see Tarkin be a player on some level in Ep III at least to hint at how he could rise to such a powerful position.

I would bet serious money that Amidala never sees Dagobah. Only Obi-Wan, Luke and Yoda will.

I also do agree Dooku is the most likely to have erased the Kamino records.

As far as Vader disposing of this and that person in Ep III, it does depend on a lot also how they define Vader. I mean if people are expecting to see Vader as we know him, then I doubt Vader will dispose of anyone. Anakin yes, Anakin in Sith garb, yes...but Vader as Vader...highly unlikely.

DarthBrandon
05-07-2002, 01:33 PM
Some good points Darth Spectre I still think possibility that the twins are born on (Dag) then they move on to Tat and Ald as Yoda
remains behind as a decoy to destroy whoever follows them.
And i agree with you partially that maybe we see Anakin killing Jedi but I truly believe George will show more of Vader in the last
half of the movie. Maybe not all of the Vader costume complete, but some of it like Cape(count Dooku's)1st Phaze mask with
special breathing apparatus etc. Do not agree about Dooku erase.
Save best for last, agree with ya 100% that Tarkin needs to have some kind of introduction in EIII to clarify his power in the newly formed Empire.

Darth Spectre
05-07-2002, 02:51 PM
I think based on all the has to happen in the third act, Vader as we know him can only show up near the finale. Especially since Anakin still has to be a jedi to begin the 3rd movie (building at least one more blue saber, the one that Luke will inherit), and has to be seduced by the dark side. The Obi-Wan/Anakin duel has to be near the end of the movie, so his becoming truly Vader-like is almost impossible until he is scarred and beaten from the confrontation. Dooku is likely to be the culprit about the erasing, but I am hoping he is not. Would be more interesting to have a traitor STILL inside the Jedi Order.

DarthBrandon
05-07-2002, 04:03 PM
That's what i like to hear another traitor in the Jedi order.
In attack of the Clones Anakin has a blue lightsaber. Does he lose
it in the last battle ? I personally Don't think so. still like your points though. What else would you like to see happen ?

P.S. wouldn't it be better if Vader came into play half way into the
movie, the Jedi wouldn't know who he was until Mace, Yoda , Ben
figure it out or are told by Vader himself. Just a thought.

Sith Lord 0498
05-07-2002, 04:07 PM
Anakin does lose his AOTC saber. I read the screenplay in the "Art of Episode II" book, and his saber is cut in half by one of the machines in the droid foundry. Immediately after this is Anakin and Padme's capture by the Geonosians, Droidekas, and Jango Fett.

DarthBrandon
05-07-2002, 04:10 PM
O.k. then what Lightsaber is Anakin using when he is fighting Dooku with Obi-wan ? Another fallen Jedi's maybe ?

Darth Spectre
05-07-2002, 04:10 PM
Yes Anakin's original saber gets destroyed. The blue one he uses at end is a borrowed one, from Obi-Wan. They both have to use other sabers during the Battle of Geonosis. :)

DarthBrandon
05-07-2002, 04:14 PM
Well then that settles that, but Anakin could have constructed his new Saber in the last of Episode 2 or the beginning of three.
Beginning is more likely.

Tycho
05-07-2002, 04:20 PM
There's some contention about the lightsaber.

Here's what we know:

Obi-Wan loses his (TPM) lightsaber when the destroyers capture him and he is imprisoned and we see him talking with Dooku. "Obi-Wan: Join me and together we will destroy the Sith!"

Anakin loses his when he is taken by the destroyers and Jango Fett once Padme is captured. "Don't move Jedi!"

These lightsabers are GONE (at this point).

Then they are later all set to be sacraficed to the Arena beasts.

Obi-Wan uses a Genosian shock staff on the Acklay (for a temporary solution).

Anakin uses his chain on the Reek, to make it a rodeo mount.

Once the Jedi attack, some are killed.

Obi-Wan picks up somebody else's blue lightsaber.

Anakin picks up someone else's GREEN lightsaber.

Once they face Dooku, Obi-Wan tosses Anakin his #2 blue saber for the scene when Anakin fights Dooku with 2 sabers (neither of them are his OR Obi-Wan's personally).

After the battle, if there is time, or it's not hidden and impossible, the original lightsabers might be found and given back to their owners.

Thus, everything ends up equal (an arm missing here or there nonetheless).

We can assume that Obi-Wan's TPM saber was returned to him when the halved body of an Iridonian Zabrack - turned Sith was found at the bottom of a Naboo reactor core.

If their sabers are returned to the Episode 2 heroes though, we can assume several things:

1) Geonosis is completely subjugated and under control after the Republic / Jedi attack. In the aftermath of the comic book, I got no such FACT making me undoubtedly take that conclusion. It was a RESCUE MISSION. That doesn't mean that the Jedi WOULD use the Clones to take absolute control over Geonosis. What would that do (in the eyes of the other separatists) if a Separatist World was completely conquered by the Republic. It would serve the Jedi interests better to destroy the droids, but leave the world free to come WILLINGLY to the bargaining table. (Though the United States tried that with Iraq once...)

and unrelated to the political situation, we would also see situation 2:

2) A reason for the ANH Obi-Wan and Anakin sabers to be built and put into use.

I honestly can't tell if the original saber Anakin uses in AOTC is the same one as that in ANH and ESB. Some say the AOTC one is a hybrid between Vader's and the ANH/ESB Skywalker blade. Others say that it is identical to the one Luke uses.

At the convention, Hayden Christensen was asked that question, and he seemed to think he was using the Skywalker lightsaber from ANH/ESB. He didn't get to keep it though - and might not until after E3 if ever, so even this source is not yet definitive. And Hayden definitely has seen the ANH / ESB saber quite enough times as a fan, just as we are.

It will have to be done in a side-by-side comparison shot, and I recommend the Visual Dictionaries for such a comparison. I have to still pick up my E2 one, so I can't do the scan work.

Anybody think they can and settle this question? Post it here.

Thanks.

Tycho
05-07-2002, 04:23 PM
OK - thanks. I just read that Anakin's AOTC saber is destroyed in the droid foundry.

I was posting while Sithlord was. Thanks Sith.

(that wasn't clearly shown in the comic, or I wasn't paying close enough attention).

Darth Spectre
05-07-2002, 04:27 PM
I didn't think Obi-Wan's saber was supposed to be the same as from the TPM. It is very similar but not identical. I thought it was also mentioned in either the book or somewhere else that this was a saber built after he lost his fighting Darth Maul.

DarthBrandon
05-07-2002, 04:40 PM
O.K. that's kinda settled then, so lets get back to Mace, Yoda etc.
I think (and this is just a guess) that Anakin will take Count Dooku's Cape with the chain and his Saber as a trophy. This action could possibly upset Obi-Wan.

What do you think ? Spectre & Tycho

Tycho
05-07-2002, 04:50 PM
Dooku's saber might be destroyed in the battle with Yoda (or lost). In which case, Dooku's former Master has the rightful claim to it.

Meanwhile, it's possible and certainly could be written as a cool scene, but Dooku's cape will not be Vader's. Dooku's appears to be brown. I'm not saying you were suggesting that the capes were the same BTW. Just pointing that out before things get out of hand.

We've really stepped away from the plot and gotten into the accessories.

So while we're on that subject, do you think Yoda's utility belt is the same one he wore in ESB and ROTJ, or were the belts slightly different in both Classic movies? I wonder if the food pellets still tasted good after 22 years... (I'm just kidding! Please don't answer any part of that!) :D



The sabers and cloak were much more important and noteworthy for discussion.

DarthBrandon
05-07-2002, 04:57 PM
LoL that was pretty funny hehe.

Darth Spectre
05-07-2002, 07:40 PM
Yes before we compare boots and socks next, back to that Dooku trophy question...LOL. The saber as a trophy for Anakin I like a lot. He could even use that saber to confront Obi-Wan with as well, before he build the Vader saber after his scarring and battle damage.

Dooku's fate seems to clearly tie into Anakin's on many levels, regardless of whether he has any relation to Anakin or not.

Jedi Clint
05-07-2002, 08:12 PM
Dooku is sitting in Anakin's chair!

DarthBrandon
05-07-2002, 08:15 PM
Dooku will meet his doom at the hands of Anakin it cannot be avoided, it is his destiny. I believe he will also take trophies from
his victims. Thus grooming his image as Vader.

Tycho
05-07-2002, 10:57 PM
Well, we know Boba Fett will be doing that: the "Wookiee braids" are actually Padawan scalps.

For revenge for his father.

If they are not, which I highly doubt - Fett is a mean s.o.b. for doing that to Wookiees, and Lucas missed a royal opportunity.

It is therefore more likely that they were Padawan scalps. In the future, the mystery around Fett purposely distorts the truth, while the Empire rewrites history and says there never were such things as Jedi Knights - or if there were, they weren't very good.

chris
05-08-2002, 05:32 PM
That sounds like a good plan, but I like the idea of Palpatine replacing Dooku with Ani the same way he tried to do with Vader and Luke in Jedi, except this time, it works.

Darth Spectre
05-08-2002, 08:57 PM
Something I hope Ep III touches on, which Ep II sadly does not, is an explanation for how Yoda seemingly knew that there were only two Sith Lords and no more at the end of TPM. I mean, the Sith were supposedly extinct for a 1000 years, so Yoda shouldn't know that they even existed still. And even if he suspected they did, how could he possibly know the Master and Apprentice philosophy, since it was only adopted after Darth Bane secretly survived and established the new Sith order and its principles. I really am afraid that was a gaffe on Lucas'part and I am also afraid the subject is never gonna be dealt with in the trilogy again.

Beast
05-08-2002, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Darth Spectre
Something I hope Ep III touches on, which Ep II sadly does not, is an explanation for how Yoda seemingly knew that there were only two Sith Lords and no more at the end of TPM. I mean, the Sith were supposedly extinct for a 1000 years, so Yoda shouldn't know that they even existed still. And even if he suspected they did, how could he possibly know the Master and Apprentice philosophy, since it was only adopted after Darth Bane secretly survived and established the new Sith order and its principles. I really am afraid that was a gaffe on Lucas'part and I am also afraid the subject is never gonna be dealt with in the trilogy again.
The E2 Visual Dictionary has a Sith Holocron in it, and states that it is held in the Jedi Archives, it is restricted to only a handful of Jedi's at the higher levels, most likely the Jedi Council Members, and people that get special permission to view it. It also says that in times of trouble, it can be consulted. But those consulting it must be careful. I assume since Yoda is so powerful and on the Council, that both Mace and him have spent many years studying the Sith Holocron for information behind them.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Darth Spectre
05-08-2002, 09:43 PM
But the Sith holocron would have to have been from before they were "extinct" or else the Jedi would know they were never wiped out. And they were thousands of Sith before the extinction

DarthBrandon
05-08-2002, 11:54 PM
Good Point Mr. Spectre anyone else have any more ideas ?

Eternal Padawan
05-11-2002, 09:59 AM
One wonders how and why Mace and Yoda know ''Always two there are, a master and an apprentice" if the Sith are supposedly hiding in secret and everyone thinks they are extinct.

DarthBrandon
05-12-2002, 02:57 AM
Possibly throughout the years Jedi learned this info from the Sith
Holocron which could have explained (the history) that there is only two at a time. Also they may have thought that they destroyed the last of the Sith over the years only to find out in TPM that this was not so.

bigbarada
05-13-2002, 02:08 AM
I'm sure this information is recorded somewhere. The Jedi Library maybe? It's not a major plot point and doesn't need to be touched on in the movie. It would waste valuable screen time that could be spent on battles and flashy effects.

Isn't it enough to just say that Yoda and Mace are extremely knowledgeable about the Jedi and Sith histories and leave it at that? Why does the audience need to know where they got that knowledge? Does someone watching a hospital drama need to be explained exactly how the doctor knows that such and such disease will cause such and such side effect. No, because the audience trusts the doctor character's expertise. So it is with Yoda and Mace, they say it's so thus the audience should trust that. No need to waste anymore screen time on it.

Eternal Padawan
05-13-2002, 02:31 AM
Agreed. Let's remember this thread focuses on whats in the movie, not the backstory behind the movie or the events leading up to the movie. Padme and Anakin might be hanging out on Naboo or Tatooine for a few years in between films, but I don't think George will take up precious screen time showing Obi Wan asking Anakin to come fight in the war. He'll get right to it.

That said, let's discuss the 'Armageddon" theories and the "Red Herring" theories. Try to incorporate them into "plot" I like the idea of having several "possibilities" of Vader. I don't think there's going to be a Sith Council or anything, but a few characters who turn your head away from Anakin is a nice compromise for the "We need to show Anakin/ We need to keep it a secret" debaters. Using Vaders Armor is a nice visual queue and it's definitely George's motif. (Recurring Visual themes). Is this new minor villain McCallum keeps talking about the same Red herring Proto-Vader? Dooku is another possibility. Making each of these villains "deaths" ambiguous and making Anakin's seem final and unambiguous (he falls into molten lava/steel) would lead first time viewers down the wrong alley so they would be truly shocked in ESB.

The "Armageddon" fits in nicely with the Opening Sequence we had figured out. It makes me think it might even be bigger than what we first supposed. Cool.

pthfnder89
05-14-2002, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks

The E2 Visual Dictionary has a Sith Holocron in it, and states that it is held in the Jedi Archives, it is restricted to only a handful of Jedi's at the higher levels, most likely the Jedi Council Members, and people that get special permission to view it.

Actually its seclusion is even further than that. It says that only a handful of the top Jedi even know it exists. So no one but the most respected Jedi should even know about it.:)

Tycho
05-14-2002, 01:10 PM
Don't you think Yoda's personal former apprentice as well as Qui-Gon's former master would be one of the most respected Jedi?

Well Count Dooku knows everything!!!

And the Sith are back!

bigbarada
05-14-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
And the Sith are back!

Were they ever really gone?

DeadEye
05-14-2002, 05:39 PM
No...but now, they're back, as in now, they're a threat again.

Eternal Padawan
05-14-2002, 06:51 PM
Tycho, are you suggesting Dooku looked into the Sith Holocron and then sought Sidious out, rather than Sidious came looking for a new apprentice and found Dooku? I think there is probably a connection with Sifo-Dyas, but in any case, I don't think any of this will be delved into during the film. Dooku is a Sith. Sidious is a Sith. how they got there is irrelevant (in movie terms).

Tycho
05-14-2002, 07:23 PM
We don't know. Maybe Dooku even sought the Sith out for revenge for killing his former Padawan. Then he fell into the corruption like Ulic Qel Droma did. Maybe the first part happened, but Dooku was killed and Cloned? Who knows?

It is important for at least the reason that it is interesting!

Eternal Padawan
05-15-2002, 08:56 PM
ARRGH! Now Dooku is a clone?!?!



(slap)


Stop that.


;)



From a purely EU standpoint I would like to know if Sifo -Dyas was in on it, or if they are merely using his anme in their plans knowing he was dead. Kenobi says he was under the impression Sifo died BEFORE the order was placed. But it's an intriguing idea if Sifo was the interim Sith lord between Maul and Dooku.

Toad
05-16-2002, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Eternal Padawan

But it's an intriguing idea if Sifo was the interim Sith lord between Maul and Dooku.

But how is that possible since Sifo-Dyas was (apparently) dead before the order was placed? Unless it was, in fact, Sidious. If it is Sidious, that brings up more important problems: Palpy can't be Sidious, or else the Jedi would obviously recognize Palpy as Sifo-Dyas! This means that Sidious could be in such deep hiding because he was the Jedi Sifo-Dyas, and that Palpatine is something else. But I don't like that -- I want Sidious/Palpy to be the same guy. So perhaps Dooku just paraded around as Sifo-Dyas (or maybe Sidious did) to Kamino to start the clone thing.



Is GL going to stick to this whole "one master, one apprentice" thing or not?

Jedi Clint
05-16-2002, 01:10 PM
Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master. He died around the time TPM took place. He is not Palpatine/Sidious.

From the novel:

"The name, known to Obi Wan as that of a former Jedi Master,"
"If it was indeed Sifo-Dyas that commissioned an army of clones, then why hadn't Master Yoda or any of the others said anything about it?" Sifo-Dyas had been a powerful Jedi before his untimely death, but would he have acted alone on an issue as important as this?"
"The units you will soon see on the parade ground we started 10 years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they are mature and quite ready for duty."
"A bounty hunter named Jagno Fett," Lama Su offered without any hesitation. "We felt that a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Sifo-Dyas hand picked Jango himself."
"Sifo-Dyas explained to us the Jedi aversion to leading droids. He told us Jedi could only lead an army of life-forms."
"He took a deep breath, wondering how Sifo-Dyas, how any Jedi, could have so willingly and unilaterly crossed the line to create any army of clones."
"Sifo-Dyas. Isn't he the one who hired you for this job?"
"Never heard of him," Jango replied, and if there was a lie in his words, Obi Wan could not detect it.
"I was recruited by a man called Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden."
"Yes Master, they say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clone army almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?"
"No", Mace answered without hesitation, and without even looking to Yoda for confirmation. "Whoever placed that order did not have the permission of the Jedi Council."
"A clone army," Mace remarked, alone with Yoda once again, the hologram gone. Why would Sifo-Dyas........"
"When placed this order was, may provide insight,"

Toad
05-16-2002, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master. He died around the time TPM took place. He is not Palpatine/Sidious.

From the novel:



That isn't conclusive though, Clint. I do agree it probably won't be Sidious, because "almost 10 years ago" is AFTER the time Sidious was training Maul (in fact, AFTER the time Maul was killed by OB1).

Jedi Clint
05-16-2002, 04:03 PM
Why do you say that it isn't conclusive?

Tycho
05-19-2002, 06:30 PM
Lot of stuff being added into this forum by me, personally, amongst others.

Han being a clone again,

JarJar's role in this and what motivates him TO DIE, yup...

Mace possibly being a bad guy - still the Boba Fett thing will play itself out with him - or it's very likely.

But I've had a lot of thoughts that start me questioning our assumed omnipotence in this thread and Rollo Tomassi's great theory so many of us have contributed to.

Eternal Padawan
05-20-2002, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
Lot of stuff being added into this forum by me, personally, amongst others.

Han being a clone again,

JarJar's role in this and what motivates him TO DIE, yup...

Mace possibly being a bad guy - still the Boba Fett thing will play itself out with him - or it's very likely.

But I've had a lot of thoughts that start me questioning our assumed omnipotence in this thread and Rollo Tomassi's great theory so many of us have contributed to.

Now, now. Remember when you said you wouldn't get too attached to the plotline you created? ;)

Jar Jar dies? Possibly, but I don't think he will graphically buy it on screen. His action of helping Padme escape will have consequences that include his IMPLIED death at the hands to the Empire. But I don't think George will kill him onscreen.

Mace as a traitor/villain? I don't think so. As stated before, there's enough betrayal in the next film. Anakin feels betrayed by Obi Wan and Padme. Anakin actually betrays himself to the dark side. Plapatine betrays the Republic and reveals himself to be Sidious. Don't need Mace in there betraying anyone. He just needs to confront Boba and die.

Han may be a clone, but he won't show up in the film. (Dear lord I hope he doesn't)

sunblind
05-28-2002, 09:51 AM
Did anyone mention in this thread that maybe Boba Fett "Disintegrates Mace" For as in Empire, Vader tells Boba, "No Disintegrations"
Sorry if this isnt what you all are talking about in through 15...i mean 16 pages...but everyone is talking about this and that....blah blah blah....halb..

Eternal Padawan
05-28-2002, 10:05 AM
You didn't read ANY of the pages if you have to ask...

sunblind
05-28-2002, 10:49 AM
No, I read some and skipped through there and here, but I'm at work and shouldnt be reading all this while I'm here and by the time I get home i would have forgotten.
besides I know the rules but theres 16 pages man! 16 of'em.

Tycho
05-28-2002, 01:17 PM
The thread started with the plot point that Mace provides a diversion for Fett, so Padme and the Skywalker twins can be rescued. Fett wants revenge so bad he takes the bait.

Fett's only 16 at the most in E3, so he'll make errors in judgement that he'll learn from.

Mace allows himself to be trapped so that he'll be irresistable bait.

Mace has learned (from Qui-Gon's spirit now?) how to fade into the Force, and he does this, disintegrating right before Fett's eyes.

That part of the theory from Rollo Tomassi is regarded as so plausible (and a reason as to how the Fett-Windu rivalry can be resolved w.o. giving too much credit to a 16 year old who's not THAT experienced that he could kill a Jedi Master when his own father couldn't), that this thread sprouted into the definitive place to plot out Episode 3 and re-adapt it as spoilers become available.

I got inspired and wrote E3 - the complete storyline in this forum, incorporating all of the ideas laid out here, and some new ones I'd thought of on my own. That might simplify things, but ....

If you guys want, I'll copy and paste it here. I just wanted to make it easier for new guys to find, as looking at the subject - limited to Mace's Death, no one looking for an E3 synopsis would suspect it's here.

Eternal Padawan
05-28-2002, 08:35 PM
Unless we change the name of the thread to Mace's Death (or The Juggernaut Episode III storyline thread)

or

The Definitive Episode III plot thread (formerly known as Mace's Death)

Darth Spectre
05-30-2002, 12:57 PM
Not to get off the subject TOO much, but I wanted to go back to the Sifo-Dyas identity question debate. I was thinking of about this this morning (Lord knows why...LOL) but I think we may be looking at this wrong. We know Dyas was a Jedi, apparently a member of the council, and died 10 years before AOTC (before the Clones could have been ordered, if Obi-Wan is correct). The Kamino Cloners said Dyas ordered the clones and picked out Jango as the donor for the them. Jango denied knowing Dyas, but said Tyrannus recruited him. Since Tyrannus is/was Dooku, it would make sense also that the man pretending to be Dyas to the Kaminoans was also Dooku. Being outside of the republic, it is not likely that the cloners would have known what Dyas, the real Dyas, looked like. And since they never knew of the death of the real Dyas, they apparently don't get much news related to the Jedi and council. The Kaminoans might have heard of the name Dyas before, from his reputation or some event he participated in, but never had seen the real man or met him. Thus, when Dooku passed himself off as Dyas, they would have no reason to doubt him, and Dooku possessing tremendous Jedi powers of his own would make the deception even more believable. Based on info we have now, it would seem that only Dooku or Sidous/Palpatine could have been Sifo-Dyas.

Croaker
05-30-2002, 02:07 PM
Darth Spectre -
I agree that your explanantion is pretty much how it comes across in the movie and how a non SW person would make sense of it.
There is no need for the answer to be much more complicated. And most of the other solutions tend to ignore some of the information that we already have.

Darth Spectre
05-30-2002, 02:12 PM
Yes, unless we find out the Kamino cloners lied to Obi-Wan or Dooku didn't recruit Jango, Dooku posing as Sifo-Dyas seems to be the most logical explanation.

Jedi Clint
05-30-2002, 02:13 PM
Indeed.

Eternal Padawan
05-31-2002, 08:49 AM
Wow! Are we all in agreement? That is so much better than crackpots suggesting that Qui Gon was Sifo-Dyas or that SD was actaully a sith lord.

and I quote Jedi Clint


Indeed.

hango fett
06-05-2002, 07:10 AM
that was an excellent story, rollo. i printed it out twice!

Eternal Padawan
06-08-2002, 09:25 AM
George noted on EW that the movie starts out with a huge battle (The End of the Clone Wars) and the rest of the movie is smaller and more personal.

Exactly as I predicted. Damn I hate being right all the time.

Degry Lawat likes Tycho's version better than mine. I'm hurt, man. Deeply hurt. ;)

Tycho
06-08-2002, 10:48 AM
This makes perfect sense because were this a 12 hour movie, the 6th hour would want to slow down to match the tempos of the 7th hour (*ANH up until about the point they leave Mos Eisley and Luke is training aboard the Falcon).

How can you end with a blockbuster battle and then smoothely switch to dewbacks, blue milk, and lumbering sandcrawlers?

The whole saga has also been referred to as a space opera, so I think that therefore all the action will most likely be seen in the first 45 minutes, though the last hour of the movie should have 3 pretty decent lightsaber battles and some shots fired - similar to the end of Empire Strikes Back. The Anakin / Obi-Wan duel will be in about the middle of the film and the second lightsaber battle. The first one will slay Dooku and be in the previous hour (5th hour of the saga) and not count as the last 3 I was talking about.

I hope that Vader will appear in the last 2. However, as I said before, neither of these will be a fight with Obi-Wan, though perhaps they will meet, Obi-Wan will realize WHO Vader is, even if it was not explicitly stated "Anakin!" but rather "you were once my learner but I am still the Master!" or something of that nature to make you think - OK it could be Anakin or Obi-Wan's second apprentice...

But whichever, the relationship between the two of them will be such that Vader lets him go, but with a very serious threat: "Run and never come back, Old Man!"

(I used that phrase loosely because Obi-Wan will only be 38).

Eternal Padawan
06-09-2002, 08:36 AM
Thinking about the Mace Windu thing a bit. To add more tension to the escape from the Jedi Temple sequence, I wasthinking that Vader gets there BEFORE Mace, Yoda, Ben etc escape. All of the remaining Jedi go toe to toe with Vader (Plo, Ki-Adi, etc) including Mace. This way we get to see a Mace/Vader confrontation. Vader wounds Mace, but before he can deliver the final blow, he is intercepted by the others who sacrifice themselves while Mace and Yoda and Ben escape. Then, when Mace comes across Boba, he is weakened and realizes the only way to help is to sacrifice himself. Since he is going to die anyway from Vaders attack, he goes out in a "blaze of glory" battling Fett. THEN he becomes one with the force.