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RussUAE
08-28-2003, 01:21 AM
I know it's not everyones cup of tea, but I thought I should share with you that The Phantom Menace is my favourite Star Wars film.

Is there anyone, anyone at all (come on, don't be shy), who would agree with me?

I don't know why, maybe it's just that I'm still reliving the day I first saw it and the excitment of a new film after 16 years, maybe it's the fact we see so much more of the SW galaxy. Either way it is an amazing film and I reckon George should be proud of it.

I never tire of watching it, whereas AOTC (a good film of course) isn't as watchable for me, but I can watch TPM over and over again...almost constantly.

2-1B
08-28-2003, 01:37 AM
I love TPM so I'm in agreement with you there. :)
However my love for the two prequels is the opposite of yours - for me, AOTC is 10 times more watchable than AOTC, I just love Episode II that much more.

I'm a bit disappointed in myself - since November 2002, I have not even once sat down to watch Episode I and II back to back. :(
I watched TPM last summer the day before another theatrical showing of AOTC but that's the closest I came to a doubleheader . . . I must correct that problem SOON. :D

I think TPM is awesome but it's still my least favorite of the Saga . . . barely. ;) I know ANH gets a lot of credit and as great as it is I start losing interest after the escape from the Death Star. Still, the Obi-Wan scenes are my favorites, the Tatooine stuff is to die for, and most of the Death Star stuff is cool -- so I definitely rank ANH before TPM.

For me to rank TPM as 5th out of 5 is not meant as a diss toward the movie, it's just that I like the others more. :)

JediTricks
08-28-2003, 01:59 AM
I know it's not everyones cup of tea, but I thought I should share with you that The Phantom Menace is my favourite Star Wars film.

Is there anyone, anyone at all (come on, don't be shy), who would agree with me?I totally agree, TPM is your favorite SW movie. :D

For me, I can't sit through it anymore, though it's slightly more tolerable to me than AOTC - I have seen TPM 4 or 5 times as often as AOTC.

Rogue II
08-28-2003, 07:41 AM
I totally agree, TPM is your favorite SW movie. :D

For me, I can't sit through it anymore, though it's slightly more tolerable to me than AOTC - I have seen TPM 4 or 5 times as often as AOTC.

It is funny you should say that. When ATOC came out, I liked it better than TPM. But, I watched ATOC for the first time in a while again last night. I found it incredibly annoying for some reason. Every time I've watched it, I've liked it less and less. On the other hand, I actually liked TPM more every time I watched it. Don't get me wrong, I still like the original trilogy way better.

Jaff
08-28-2003, 10:06 AM
Well I think TPM is a great film. I like it more than AOTC, ANH, and almost better than ROTJ. I like it just for the complicated plots and all those infinate tiny details put there just for SW fans. And although allot of people rag on the story it really was just the setup, and it was a complicated one at that, so I can see how many don't like this film.

Pendo
08-28-2003, 10:22 AM
I too love TPM, more so than AOTC :D. Of course it is still nothing compared to the OT, but so far out of the PT it is my fave, I just hope Episode III will be better :).

PENDO!

TheDarthVader
08-28-2003, 01:23 PM
I too love TPM and many on this board should already know this. My favorite Star Wars movie is ANH but second is TPM. I love the characters of Sebulba and Watto. They are both awesome CGI characters. I believe Lucas did a great job with TPM.

Kidhuman
08-28-2003, 02:52 PM
TPM is a great movie. So is AOTC. It doesnt beat out the Ot though. Ithink TOM is better because Hayden isnt acting like a child. At leastJake Lloyd is a kid ansd he had that going for him.

stillakid
08-28-2003, 10:46 PM
I like it just for the complicated plots and all those infinate tiny details put there just for SW fans.

What was complicated about it? :confused: What tiny details? :confused: Enlighten me! :)

2-1B
09-02-2003, 12:50 AM
I finally got around to watching the TPM and AOTC DVDs back to back IMMEDIATELY. Well, I watched TPM and then the deleted scenes and then AOTC and its deleted scenes.
And what a treat this experiment was ! :happy:

I still love AOTC loads more than TPM but I really enjoyed watching it again. I'm surprised to read of more and more fans who enjoy TPM more than AOTC. :confused: Even the people who hated TPM seemed to say something like "even though AOTC is not good, it's still better than TPM (even though that's not saying much)."
Whatever though! If you like TPM more than AOTC, I respect that. :cool:

I have to say, even though I loved TPM since the beginning, I don't mind saying that thanks to AOTC I love it even more. I know that some people are of the opinion that a film should be good on its own and not rely on another movie - but like I said, I loved TPM already and yes indeed I think it's even better with AOTC in the can now. :)

Here's one example:

I always thought that the "farewell to mom" scene was probably Jake Lloyd's best scene. I really like that scene and it makes me sad - I could hardly stand to say goodbye to my mom for 8 hours at that age, let alone an unknown amount of time.
Also, I assumed since 1999 that Shmi would probably die and Ani might really never see her again.
Well, at least he gets to see her briefly a decade later. :cry:
I'm not a big fan of the 10 year gap between films but I think it works here. Showing Ani's last 2 meetings with his mom on screen really helps to pull the films together for me.

So basically what I'm saying is that the Jake Lloyd goodbye scene works for me all by itself. But as much as I love Hayden Christensen's goodbye scene in AOTC, I can't help but think of it during TPM, thus letting me enjoy the scene EVEN MORE.

The same goes for the OT . . . ANH by itself can be pretty contained and straightforward but when I watch it in light of what I found out in ESB and ROTJ, I can find more depth there. :)

aceguide
09-02-2003, 08:08 AM
TPM rocks. Not my personal favorite - but I can honestly say that I like every movie in the series.

Jaff
09-02-2003, 11:35 AM
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jaff
I like it just for the complicated plots and all those infinate tiny details put there just for SW fans.
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What was complicated about it? What tiny details? Enlighten me!

??????????Did you watch the movie??????????

Qui Gon and Obi-Wan's unhappy relationship, podracer Mars Guru and family (when the deleted scenes were not in the film), Palpatine's manuevering to use Padme and others to get his position. How the council looks down on Qui-Gonn, the droids and gungans beating eachother to tar in the background of the Naboo Battle. Details like 3PO and R2 meeting, 2001 space pod, and willow in the movie. Seeing the seeds of anakin when EVERYONE in the movie rejects Anakin when he leaves Tatooine because everyone is too political (including the jedi) to see that he needs emotional encouragement. Let's not forget the Blue senate guards foreshadowing the red, and those little droids walking around in the background recycling parts to make more Battle Droids. The known line "I have a bad feeling about this!" The little baby sea animals that flee from the cave when big mamma fish chases after the gungan sub (that detail was not needed, but there for us to figure out), Darth Maul's probe droids, and sith infiltrator foreshadowing the look of the Empire. THE FRICKEN LIGHTSABER DUEL which was focused on like no other Star Wars movie.

All these tiny details were really not needed with exception to Palpatine manuevering to get his position and 3PO, R2 meeting. And many of these topics like the Qui-Gonn/Obi-Wan relationship and Anakin being put off by the Jedi, and the troubled seed between Anakin and Obi-Wan are topics big enough to carry on pages of a thread.

Complicated plots, I'm sure there's more, I just haven't seen the movie enough times to figure them out, and details: There is always something new each time I see the film. In Empire or SW there is nothing new to see for me. TPM just keeps looking fresh each time I see it because of the details.

That's why I think TPM is one of the best films of the series. I only hope episode III combines the nature of Episodes I and II in a balanced way.

gtrain29
09-03-2003, 02:41 AM
TPM really isn't a bad film after you get over the jar jar shock.

After going through the dvd, though, I think lucas made an huge error in cutting one of the scenes. The scene where anakin gets into a fight with a little greedo is one of the most important scenes of the entire film IMO.
I could care less about the greedo cameo -- although it is amusing to foreshadow is eventual demise ... what the heck, I love the inclusion of greedo the more I think about his meeting with solo in anh. Where was I, oh yeah, I think we really needed to see that spark of anger in Anakin that he displays in his violent attack. Because I heard over and over from people who watched E2 wondering where that dark side of Anakin came from -- I think it was pivotal to show that one tiny outburst just so we know it is there inside him.

stillakid
09-03-2003, 09:18 AM
??????????Did you watch the movie??????????
Yep! A few times. It isn't possible to arrive at an understanding of what went wrong after just a couple viewings. ;)


Qui Gon and Obi-Wan's unhappy relationship, What was so "unhappy" about it? :confused: First of all, Qui Gon pretty much wandered through the story in a monotone daze tossing out little bits of Jedi wisdom to Obi Wan in the few instances that Obi actually had anything to do. For Obi Wan, his part was reduced to sitting on a starship for a good third of the film while a new character was invented to do everything that he should have been doing. When not sitting around bored, he just kinda followed the action around, only being allowed to jump in near the end after Qui Gon gets run-through.


podracer Mars Guru and family (when the deleted scenes were not in the film), What's complicated about that? Sure, like many things on your list (below), it's one of those "Airplane" type things, as in "did you catch that? (nudge nudge, wink wink)" But "complicated"? I don't see how it falls into that category.


Palpatine's manuevering to use Padme and others to get his position. Yes, but this is really what the Prequels are supposed to be all about. However, there are many unexplained problems with his nefarious plan as laid out in the film, such as just what is this trade embargo anyway? How exactly did he think it would help him get into power if Amidala signed a treaty? Afterall, it was the failure of his plan (to get her to sign a treaty) that enabled him to take control of the Senate. If that isn't a major plot hole, I don't know what is. If anything, we're seeing his ability to roll with the punches because, thus far (even throughout AOTC), not one of his plans has worked as he intended.


How the council looks down on Qui-Gonn,
How is that "complicated"? It not only was kinda just there, but the script even takes pains to point it out via Obi Wan's mouth just a few minutes after the Council meeting. Another example of George not trusting his audience to have the mental facilities to "get it" on their own.


the droids and gungans beating eachother to tar in the background of the Naboo Battle. Another "Airplane" moment. That's "complicated"? Sure, it's in the background, but aren't you talking about Production Design here instead of plot?


Details like 3PO and R2 meeting, :confused: Complicated? I'm not even sure it was very interesting, but that's a question of opinion.


2001 space pod, Hmm, didn't catch it, but it sounds like another "did you catch that?" Production Design thing...not plot.


and willow in the movie. Same.


Seeing the seeds of anakin when EVERYONE in the movie rejects Anakin when he leaves Tatooine because everyone is too political (including the jedi) to see that he needs emotional encouragement. :confused: Did you see the movie? Who rejected" Anakin? Schmi let him go because she knew he would be A) free and B) better off somewhere else. Hardly a rejection. And she gave him a hug. What else does he need?


Let's not forget the Blue senate guards foreshadowing the red, Background stuff, production design. Is that a plot device? Maybe, for those who will see these in order I suppose. They might look back after seeing the saga all the way through and go, "Hey, I never really noticed those before...good foreshadowing!" ;)


and those little droids walking around in the background recycling parts to make more Battle Droids. Production design stuff again.


The known line "I have a bad feeling about this!" A "ha ha, remember that!" line, put in to inspire glowing feelings of nostalgia in the older audience. What's so "complicated" about that?


The little baby sea animals that flee from the cave when big mamma fish chases after the gungan sub (that detail was not needed, but there for us to figure out), More production design.


Darth Maul's probe droids, More production design stuff.


and sith infiltrator foreshadowing the look of the Empire. More production design stuff.


THE FRICKEN LIGHTSABER DUEL which was focused on like no other Star Wars movie. Aside from the more elaborate choreography, which was "complicated" for those involved, the purpose of the fight, in terms of plot wasn't really all that complicated at all. As mentioned before, it was a way to dispatch Qui Gon out of the storyline so that Obi Wan could finally get off his keaster and actually do something. Apart from that, Maul gets killed which opens the door for another bad guy to take his place in the next film. That's pretty much the end all be all of that fight. That is, unless you want to take into account how Obi Wan used his anger to avenge Qui Gon's death, thereby starting down the darkpath. But since that little Jedi faux pas was conveniently glossed over by Lucas, we'll just pretend that it didn't really happen. ;)


ll these tiny details were really not needed with exception to Palpatine manuevering to get his position Right! The saga revolves around the downfall and fight to regain the Republic as described in the Prologue to Star Wars in the novelization. At least that's what it is supposed to be. But somewhere, George forgot his own mandate and decided to place more focus on Anakin.


and 3PO, R2 meeting. Mentioned above.


And many of these topics like the Qui-Gonn/Obi-Wan relationship and Anakin being put off by the Jedi, Again, all that stuff was laid out on a silver platter because George was making a "kid's movie" and didn't trust them to "get it." What was so "complicated" about that?


and the troubled seed between Anakin and Obi-Wan are topics big enough to carry on pages of a thread. Try please, because there really isn't much there at all. In fact, again it's all said plainly onscreen. Obi sees, via the magical technology of Midi measurement, that Anakin has more Force potential than anyone else (cuz' lord knows he never gets the opportunity to actually witness Anakin doing anything until after the credits roll). He also hears quite clearly that the Council doesn't want to train him. He takes the side of the Council when talking to Qui Gon. Then, for no true reason beyond granting a dying man's last wish, he inexplicably changes his stance and agrees to train the boy. If there is anything "complicated" about that, it is in the unexplained reason why Obi Wan suddenly thinks that training Anakin is a good idea. In fact, his doubt carries over to AOTC, but still he chooses to continue despite feeling something different. Not one bit of this really makes much sense in the reimagining of Obi Wan's motivation to train Anakin.

However, if Lucas had just left well enough alone by having Obi Wan find Anakin, realize how strongly the Force was with him, then show his own arrogance by believing that he could train him [Anakin] just as well as Yoda (it's all right there, in the OT...go check it out ;) ), then his motivation, and his own failure!, would be far clearer and would actually make some kind of sense. But alas, it is not to be....


Complicated plots, I'm sure there's more, I just haven't seen the movie enough times to figure them out, and details: There is always something new each time I see the film. In Empire or SW there is nothing new to see for me. TPM just keeps looking fresh each time I see it because of the details. Most of your list involves "non plot" items...production design stuff. Yeah, of course that stuff is interesting. Each time I rewatch AOTC, I look for more scantily clad extras in the Coruscant bar scene. ;) But that's not plot stuff.

The most interesting aspect of the Prequels thus far is the plan by Palpatine, which has so far continued, not because he has engineered it so well, but because he has completely lucked out when things haven't gone the way he planned them. I don't know if this is all part of Lucas's grand scheme, or if Lucas just isn't paying much attention to the details. We'll find out after he wraps up Episode III and the SuperNifty Editions of the OT on DVD.


That's why I think TPM is one of the best films of the series. I only hope episode III combines the nature of Episodes I and II in a balanced way.
I hope that Episode III recaptures the well designed plot lines and continuity that the original saga displayed as shaped by George with significant help from Huyck, Katz, and Kasdan. :) We'll just have to stay tuned.... :)

RussUAE
09-03-2003, 09:37 AM
Opps, didn't mean to start quite that mcuh discussion.

The OT is much more simplistic than TPM and AOTC, but I guess many would argue that that is the OT's strength.

Rogue II
09-03-2003, 10:13 AM
Opps, didn't mean to start quite that mcuh discussion.


Don't worry, it happens in every prequel discussion. ;):D


Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jaff
2001 space pod,
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Hmm, didn't catch it, but it sounds like another "did you catch that?" Production Design thing...not plot.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jaff
and willow in the movie.
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Same.

Um, you forgot to mention E.T. hanging out in the Senate. :rolleyes: :crazed:

...and where is this supposed 2001 space pod?

Jaff
09-03-2003, 04:20 PM
Wow I can't believe this thread is going so off topic, so I'm just going to respond to all the nit-picking to my remarks and hopefully that will be that!

First of all this was my original post on this thread!

Well I think TPM is a great film. I like it more than AOTC, ANH, and almost better than ROTJ. I like it just for the complicated plots and all those infinate tiny details put there just for SW fans. And although allot of people rag on the story it really was just the setup, and it was a complicated one at that, so I can see how many don't like this film.

First off the most important thing is that this is my opinion, and it may not be worthy of such annalyzing. Secondly the most important thing to realize is that I said I liked it for the complicated plots (i should have said mini plots/Qui-Gon and Obi), and all of those TINY DETAILS put in there just for fans. I capped TINY DETAILS because I listed allot of them. They have nothing to do with PLOT, that is an obvious thing.

So let me respond to relative questions on my opinion.

1st question: What's the big deal with Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon's relationship.

The answer to this was actually in the Movie novel. Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan do not get allong. Obi-Wan is a know it all trained by political jedi. Qui-Gon is against the political structure of the jedi and is trying to teach his stubborn student about his point of view on the force. Throughout Episode I Qui-Gon is trying to beat the political nature of Obi-Wan down. Constant annoyed glances are between the characters throughout the film. One example is how Obi-Wan is trying to convince Nass that he should help the Naboo. Qui-Gon is actually annoyed that his student is interupting the conversation, it's plain as day, and it is speciffically focused on in the film novelization. So if you really aren't examining their relationship you will miss it. Their complicated relationship is not fully explained in the movie, and I happen to like subtle plots in films rather than explain everything for the masses. There are many more examples, and the beauty of their relationship is that Obi-Wan does not heed qui-Gon's teaching. That is why Darth Vader is formed. Obi-Wan tries to teach Anakin to be a politition, but his first lesson was from Qui-Gon "Trust your instincts, feel don't think!" So the roles are reversed in Episode II. Obi-Wan tries to beat the instinct out of Anakin, rather than how his master tried to beat the politician out of him!

2nd ?- What's so complicated about the podracer Mars Guru- Absolutely nothing. It is a TINY DETAIL that makes the film that much interesting.

3rd ? - This was Stillakid's querry into my statement that I liked the complicated web over Palpatine manuevering his way into the senate.

Yes, but this is really what the Prequels are supposed to be all about. However, there are many unexplained problems with his nefarious plan as laid out in the film, such as just what is this trade embargo anyway? How exactly did he think it would help him get into power if Amidala signed a treaty? Afterall, it was the failure of his plan (to get her to sign a treaty) that enabled him to take control of the Senate. If that isn't a major plot hole, I don't know what is. If anything, we're seeing his ability to roll with the punches because, thus far (even throughout AOTC), not one of his plans has worked as he intended.

O.K. There is definately no plot hole in Episode I concerning this issue. Firstly the rich senators of Coruscant created an idea to allow the Nemodians to tax routes around certain worlds. Naboo was one of them, but did not recognize the Federations rights. So the Trade Federation blocades the planet until the Naboo people yeild to their financial rights.

Where does Palpy fit into this. He was instumental in setting up kickbacks and bribes to senators to push the bill through. Palpy's original deal was to give the Nemodian's the planet of Naboo, so he could use it's resources. Once the planet was invaded over the mess (that's why he's trying to keep the invasion secret at the begginning of the movie) he can expose the corruption of the senate by acting like a VICTEM. Not only to get rid of the newly elected Queen Amidala in the invasion, but he can dethrone the undecisive Chancleor Vallorum for not helping his doomed planet. Palpy screaming for justice, and his secret corrupt senator circle will guarentee the position of Chancellor. His goal is to create an army for the republic (a goal he does not acchieve till Episode II). If Naboo was occupied than it would be a perfect excuse, and he could blame the jedi for doing nothing. He would be a saintly hero fighting for justice of his home world.

What happened? The Jedi were not killed, the queen was a thorn in his side, and worse after he gets nomminated she decides to go back further messing up his plans! He actually shows surprise when she says that and tries to convince her not to. In fact he could be exposed if the Trade Federation fails. So he bites his nails for a bit, but then orders the Federation to kill everything. Although Palpy's plans are foiled, he gets his nomination, and wins. At the end of Episode I he must now wait patiently for the next opportunity. Allot of this is covered in the film novel, and obviously the film. The web is very complex, and carries over into Episode II because the same senators who ally with Palpy in Episode I are seen in Episode II. Here's a nice little detail: Guess who was the first to jump up when Amidalla voted against Valorrum: ORN FREE TA, TOON BUCK TORA, and TIKKES. BASKOL YEESRIM debates for the Trade Federation. All these senators are close to Palpatine in Episode II, and those that are not are close to Dooku. This web is anything but simple, it is wonderfully complex, and really fun to explore!

4th ? - The council looking down on Qui-Gon is no big deal?

To me it is a very big deal. The council is not in line with Qui-Gon's way. These days they are governed by a corrupt senate, and are nothing more than glorified policemen. They are mired, and Qui-Gon is all to aware of it and tries to combat that way of thinking by getting Obi-Wan to see beyond arrogant (Corcuscant) politics. The council does not like seeing their noses rubbed in their own way of thinking so Qui-Gon is like a hermit of the Order, and not generally accepted. This same thinking creates Darth Vader. The foreshadow is all in Episode I. Anakin is the boy who can do almost anything by INSTINCT alone. Qui-Gon encourages the boy and his special abilities. The council does not even consider the boy. "He's too old!" Once again the Jedi are giving into politics, and not seeing that this special boy must be trained, and needs guidance. They are nothing more than mired self-directed politicians. That is why Qui-Gon is quick to defend the boy and dump his stubborn student to boot.

By denying Anakin training they have rejected him, and this moment creates Anakin's distrust for most of the Jedi. He is instinctual not political, and there is only one Jedi he can relate too. In Episode II Qui-Gon is nowhere around, hence he is all alone, except for a Chancelor who exploits Anakin's alienation. I would say that the jedi looking down on Qui-Gon is a major subject to keep in mind while watching episode I, because it is definately relevant to Episode II.

5th ? - What's the big deal with the droids and gungans fighting in the backround Jaff?

There is no big deal, it is another one of those TINY DETAILS.

6th ? - R2-D2, and C-3PO meeting is complicated?

Not at all, it's a nice DETAIL put in there for us fans!

7th and 8th ? - Willow and the 2001 pod in the film?

TINY DETAILS - By the way Willow is in the podrace scene, and the 2001 space pod is right behind Qui-Gon and Watto to the right corner while they are talking in his junk yard. Right behind the slow moving droid in the background you will see the pod laying on it's back with it's claws in the air! NICE FUN DETAIL.

9th ? - Here is Stillakid's response to my original statement that Anakin was rejected completely AFTER leaving Tatooine:

Did you see the movie? Who rejected" Anakin? Schmi let him go because she knew he would be A) free and B) better off somewhere else. Hardly a rejection. And she gave him a hug. What else does he need?

After arriving to Coruscant Anakin only has three people left to be near him: Jar Jar, Padme, and Qui-Gon. On Tatooine Anakin was the superboy with lots of freinds. Now he is feeling very lonely, sitting in corners and trying to stay near those who support him. On Corcuscant Padme is way too busy for him, as is Qui Gon. So he has Jar Jar. When he's in front of the council they blast his vunerability all to hell thanks to their blunt political nature. So he is immediately rejected by the Jedi. Then Obi-Wan cuts Anakin to shreds by saying: "The boy is dangerous!" If you watch the film Anakin is standing right there when he says it. After Qui-Gon puts his student in his place Anakin comes right up feeling like he is really a burden and not wanted. He did that because he heard Obi-Wan. This is very relevant because at the end of the movie when Obi-Wan says to Anakin: "I promise you will be a jedi!" Anakin says nothing, shows no excitement, or hope as he looks at the burning body of the person who needed to be his master. In episode II you can see Anakin's rejection plain as day. EVERYONE IS HOLDING HIM BACK. Anakin is like a super student who has no experiance, and what he needs is someone to create emotional responsibility in the boy (Qui-Gon), instead he gets a bunch of politicians. Since he has no Padme or Jar Jar to hang out with who encourages him. Guess who takes that mantle: You guessed it: Palpatine. That's why Vader is so loyal to him in the final films.

10th ? - Are the Blue Corcuscant guards,the repair droids for the Nemodians, Darth Maul's probe Droids, Sith Infiltrator, and the little baby sea animals running for cover plot devices?

They have nothing to do with the plot. They are TINY DETAILS.

11th ? - Is the line "I have a bad feeling about this?" a complicated issue?

Nope, never, couldn't be: It's just a TINY DETAIL.

12TH ? - I noted that I love the DETAIL put into the lightsaber duel at the end of Episode I. Here is the rebuttal to that opinion.

Aside from the more elaborate choreography, which was "complicated" for those involved, the purpose of the fight, in terms of plot wasn't really all that complicated at all. As mentioned before, it was a way to dispatch Qui Gon out of the storyline so that Obi Wan could finally get off his keaster and actually do something. Apart from that, Maul gets killed which opens the door for another bad guy to take his place in the next film. That's pretty much the end all be all of that fight. That is, unless you want to take into account how Obi Wan used his anger to avenge Qui Gon's death, thereby starting down the darkpath. But since that little Jedi faux pas was conveniently glossed over by Lucas, we'll just pretend that it didn't really happen.

Nothing is complicated about the topic, just the cinematography. However Stillakid really has some great points. However Obi Wan never turned to the darkside, nor was it glossed over. The subject was seriously covered in the novelization for the movie. Obi-Wan was using all of HIS power in fighting Maul. As he hung below Maul he finally thought of Qui-Gon and his teaching: "FEEL DON"T THINK!" Since Obi is a thinking politician he gets the message, and clears his mind so Maul cannot read his next move. Then he opens up a can of whoop a--? If only Obi-Wan kept this lesson to heart Vader never would have been concieved!

13th ? - Here's a statement when I said the Details were not needed for the films plot.

Right! The saga revolves around the downfall and fight to regain the Republic as described in the Prologue to Star Wars in the novelization. At least that's what it is supposed to be. But somewhere, George forgot his own mandate and decided to place more focus on Anakin.

My point exactly, but I always thought George said the film was about Anakin. He's been saying that since From SW to Jedi (1983). But to me sw is about many things. That's why I love the films. It is infinately detailed, which is why I love the DETAILS!!!!!!

14th ? - I noted that I was sure there are tons of plot devices I have yet to see, and the follow up was this:

Most of your list involves "non plot" items...production design stuff. Yeah, of course that stuff is interesting. Each time I rewatch AOTC, I look for more scantily clad extras in the Coruscant bar scene. But that's not plot stuff.

The fact that you look for extras in the bar scenes proves my own point that the DETAILS are what we (the fans) want, and he is putting them out for us more than he ever did in the classic films. They mean nothing to the story, but they do make the films infinately larger! In my opinion Episode I has the most DETAILS (whether plot useful or not) than any other film. That's one of the reasons why I originally posted that Episode I is one of my favorites.

Final ? - I said the complicated relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan was enough to make threads about. This was the reply:

Try please, because there really isn't much there at all. In fact, again it's all said plainly onscreen. Obi sees, via the magical technology of Midi measurement, that Anakin has more Force potential than anyone else (cuz' lord knows he never gets the opportunity to actually witness Anakin doing anything until after the credits roll). He also hears quite clearly that the Council doesn't want to train him. He takes the side of the Council when talking to Qui Gon. Then, for no true reason beyond granting a dying man's last wish, he inexplicably changes his stance and agrees to train the boy. If there is anything "complicated" about that, it is in the unexplained reason why Obi Wan suddenly thinks that training Anakin is a good idea. In fact, his doubt carries over to AOTC, but still he chooses to continue despite feeling something different. Not one bit of this really makes much sense in the reimagining of Obi Wan's motivation to train Anakin.

However, if Lucas had just left well enough alone by having Obi Wan find Anakin, realize how strongly the Force was with him, then show his own arrogance by believing that he could train him [Anakin] just as well as Yoda (it's all right there, in the OT...go check it out ), then his motivation, and his own failure!, would be far clearer and would actually make some kind of sense. But alas, it is not to be....

Obviously that point of view is different from mine. This descriptive means that you see the film as simple popcorn fare and nothing more. Going into the complexity of the relationship is stated above, but if you don't see any complexities I can't help you unless your open to that. It seems that simplicity is the nature in the paragraph above.

The second paragraph starting with However, concerns me though. It sounds like you were expecting certain predetermined things about Episode I and this film is not acceptable to you. Why watch Episode I if all the answers are in Episode V. What's the point. If you ask me how I met my wife, I would say at Work. It was more complicated than that, but it's a true story. This is the same for the description Obi-Wan gives in Episode V.

To me Episode I represents the entire statement that the Jedi were their own disease because they were proud and archaic. The Empire was proud and archaic. Archaic things die, but the power to do right can outweigh these things.

In the end I love looking for these details, and some are complicated, and some are simple depending on MY point of view. All of you have your own way of looking at things, that is your point of views. I respect that, and that's all I have to say.

Sorry this was a long post. I had a lot of points to cover.

stillakid
09-03-2003, 05:12 PM
I capped TINY DETAILS because I listed allot of them. They have nothing to do with PLOT, that is an obvious thing.
True. I should have double-checked the original statement.


So let me respond to relative questions on my opinion.

1st question: What's the big deal with Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon's relationship.

The answer to this was actually in the Movie novel.
I'll stop you there. This is all fine and good that George felt the need to have another author flesh out his story in after-market study guide material, but how can a standard movie-going audience be expected to fill in so many gaping holes when all they're interested in doing is watching a well constructed motion picture?

Was the success of The Godfather dependent upon audience and critics rushing out to the bookstore so they could get answers to all the nagging loose ends and unfulfilled relationships? No. It is a filmmaker's responsibility to do the hard work and find ways to tell his story in approximately 2 hours in a way that is both visually stimulating and intellectually satisfying.

It is an unfair statement to suggest that people aren't interested in subtlety when all they are asking for is a plot that makes sense onscreen. This is the writer's problem to work out: how to get all the necessary information to the audience without having the characters just sit around talking about everything? So, for instance, to have lil' Ani just walk into frame and say "Tell me everything I need to know about Midichlorians," is ridiculous. It might work in a comedy (ie, The Princess Bride, "Get me up to speed") but when the point is to create a serious dramatic piece, the rules aren't as forgiving.

So maybe Qui and Obi don't have a great relationship in the novelization. Fine, but I didn't see hundreds upon hundreds of people lining up at the box office to pay $8 bucks so they could sit in a dark theater and read. While you absolutely don't want to bash the audience over the head (as George does quite frequently with some aspects of TPM), there is a point where you can be too subtle and the intended message never gets through. That's not the audiences fault for being too dense...it's the filmmaker's fault for not putting it up there in the first place.



O.K. There is definately no plot hole in Episode I concerning this issue. Firstly the rich senators of Coruscant created an idea to allow the Nemodians to tax routes around certain worlds. Naboo was one of them, but did not recognize the Federations rights. So the Trade Federation blocades the planet until the Naboo people yeild to their financial rights.

Where does Palpy fit into this. He was instumental in setting up kickbacks and bribes to senators to push the bill through. Palpy's original deal was to give the Nemodian's the planet of Naboo, so he could use it's resources. Once the planet was invaded over the mess (that's why he's trying to keep the invasion secret at the begginning of the movie) he can expose the corruption of the senate by acting like a VICTEM. Not only to get rid of the newly elected Queen Amidala in the invasion, but he can dethrone the undecisive Chancleor Vallorum for not helping his doomed planet. Palpy screaming for justice, and his secret corrupt senator circle will guarentee the position of Chancellor. His goal is to create an army for the republic (a goal he does not acchieve till Episode II). If Naboo was occupied than it would be a perfect excuse, and he could blame the jedi for doing nothing. He would be a saintly hero fighting for justice of his home world.

What happened? The Jedi were not killed, the queen was a thorn in his side, and worse after he gets nomminated she decides to go back further messing up his plans! He actually shows surprise when she says that and tries to convince her not to. In fact he could be exposed if the Trade Federation fails. So he bites his nails for a bit, but then orders the Federation to kill everything. Although Palpy's plans are foiled, he gets his nomination, and wins. At the end of Episode I he must now wait patiently for the next opportunity. Allot of this is covered in the film novel, and obviously the film. The web is very complex, and carries over into Episode II because the same senators who ally with Palpy in Episode I are seen in Episode II. Here's a nice little detail: Guess who was the first to jump up when Amidalla voted against Valorrum: ORN FREE TA, TOON BUCK TORA, and TIKKES. BASKOL YEESRIM debates for the Trade Federation. All these senators are close to Palpatine in Episode II, and those that are not are close to Dooku. This web is anything but simple, it is wonderfully complex, and really fun to explore!
Ok, I hope that ALL of that was in the novel because certainly not a shred of it was onscreen, at least not in any manner that any moviegoer would have managed to piece together.


4th ? - The council looking down on Qui-Gon is no big deal?

To me it is a very big deal. The council is not in line with Qui-Gon's way. These days they are governed by a corrupt senate, and are nothing more than glorified policemen. They are mired, and Qui-Gon is all to aware of it and tries to combat that way of thinking by getting Obi-Wan to see beyond arrogant (Corcuscant) politics. The council does not like seeing their noses rubbed in their own way of thinking so Qui-Gon is like a hermit of the Order, and not generally accepted. This same thinking creates Darth Vader. The foreshadow is all in Episode I. Anakin is the boy who can do almost anything by INSTINCT alone. Qui-Gon encourages the boy and his special abilities. The council does not even consider the boy. "He's too old!" Once again the Jedi are giving into politics, and not seeing that this special boy must be trained, and needs guidance. They are nothing more than mired self-directed politicians. That is why Qui-Gon is quick to defend the boy and dump his stubborn student to boot.

By denying Anakin training they have rejected him, and this moment creates Anakin's distrust for most of the Jedi. He is instinctual not political, and there is only one Jedi he can relate too. In Episode II Qui-Gon is nowhere around, hence he is all alone, except for a Chancelor who exploits Anakin's alienation. I would say that the jedi looking down on Qui-Gon is a major subject to keep in mind while watching episode I, because it is definately relevant to Episode II.
I didn't say it wasn't a big deal. I said that it wasn't a terribly complicated scenario.


9th ? - Here is Stillakid's response to my original statement that Anakin was rejected completely AFTER leaving Tatooine:

After arriving to Coruscant Anakin only has three people left to be near him: Jar Jar, Padme, and Qui-Gon. On Tatooine Anakin was the superboy with lots of freinds. Now he is feeling very lonely, sitting in corners and trying to stay near those who support him. On Corcuscant Padme is way too busy for him, as is Qui Gon. So he has Jar Jar. When he's in front of the council they blast his vunerability all to hell thanks to their blunt political nature. So he is immediately rejected by the Jedi. Then Obi-Wan cuts Anakin to shreds by saying: "The boy is dangerous!" If you watch the film Anakin is standing right there when he says it. After Qui-Gon puts his student in his place Anakin comes right up feeling like he is really a burden and not wanted. He did that because he heard Obi-Wan. This is very relevant because at the end of the movie when Obi-Wan says to Anakin: "I promise you will be a jedi!" Anakin says nothing, shows no excitement, or hope as he looks at the burning body of the person who needed to be his master. In episode II you can see Anakin's rejection plain as day. EVERYONE IS HOLDING HIM BACK. Anakin is like a super student who has no experiance, and what he needs is someone to create emotional responsibility in the boy (Qui-Gon), instead he gets a bunch of politicians. Since he has no Padme or Jar Jar to hang out with who encourages him. Guess who takes that mantle: You guessed it: Palpatine. That's why Vader is so loyal to him in the final films.
Okay, well there's nothing like reading more into something, but have at it. :) We have yet to see ANYONE try to "hold back" Anakin. In fact, every one of Anakin's unsubstantiated tirades in AOTC had no basis save for his own arrogance and impatience. Not only that, but he admits this to Padme after she chastises him for unloading on Obi Wan. Something about "others see our weaknesses" or something to that effect. His reply? "I know." Go figure. :rolleyes: He KNOWS he's not really ready for "the trials" but his own impatience somehow is compelling him to browbeat Obi Wan for it.

This being the case, Palpatine somehow recognizes Anakin's need for an ego-stroke and takes advantage of it to bring the boy under his influence. It's really as simple as that.


12TH ? - I noted that I love the DETAIL put into the lightsaber duel at the end of Episode I. Here is the rebuttal to that opinion.

Nothing is complicated about the topic, just the cinematography. However Stillakid really has some great points. However Obi Wan never turned to the darkside, nor was it glossed over. The subject was seriously covered in the novelization for the movie.
Right. I think I covered this study guide issue above. ;) However, it is clear onscreen that Obi Wan is seriously PO'd and, just like Luke, jumps into this fight full-boar. If there are any "sub-layers" to the FU look in his eyes, I'm sure that no one else picked up on them, save for the loyal readers of the novel.



13th ? - Here's a statement when I said the Details were not needed for the films plot.

Right! The saga revolves around the downfall and fight to regain the Republic as described in the Prologue to Star Wars in the novelization. At least that's what it is supposed to be. But somewhere, George forgot his own mandate and decided to place more focus on Anakin.

My point exactly, but I always thought George said the film was about Anakin. He's been saying that since From SW to Jedi (1983). But to me sw is about many things. That's why I love the films. It is infinately detailed, which is why I love the DETAILS!!!!!!
Well, who doesn't? The layering of fun and necessary details that aren't shoved down our throats is what brings life to an otherwise mechanical bit of storytelling. However, the details have to be there for a reason, especially if they are brought out to the front of the stage. Take this scenario, for instance. You're watching an old Noir film with a Private Dick investigating an old hotel room. Moments before the hero arrives, in a close-up, the killer puts a revolver in a drawer then leaves. The hero continues about his business and he leaves. Another hour and half passes for you and the movie ends without one additional mention of that gun in the drawer. Why? Why point it out so obviously and then never bother with it again? Sure, there is room for a red-herring if that is the point, but when applied to a detail like Midichlorians, one has to wonder. They came up, Lucas heard the outcry, and clearly dropped them from being mentioned in the follow-up film. Plus, not to mention, that they of course have no mention in the OT films either. Isn't it odd that something so vital to the understanding of The Force and the Jedi is mentioned only twice in just one of the movies?



Obviously that point of view is different from mine. This descriptive means that you see the film as simple popcorn fare and nothing more. Going into the complexity of the relationship is stated above, but if you don't see any complexities I can't help you unless your open to that. It seems that simplicity is the nature in the paragraph above.
I'm open to every complexity a filmmaker manages to mete out. But I refuse to do the work for him and fill in the empty gaps with heresay and conjecture. You say "simplicity" as if it's a bad thing. In simplicity, there is understanding. I believe that George felt that if he cut fast enough, the film would appear to be "complex" and that was all he'd need to fool enough people. This isn't an attitude of his that I invented. It's something he himself admitted to long ago, as early as American Graffiti. He knew that true emotion was difficult for him to create on screen so he admitted that if the film was edited in shorter pieces, the audience wouldn't have time to notice the problems. That's the situation we have with the Prequels.


The second paragraph starting with However, concerns me though. It sounds like you were expecting certain predetermined things about Episode I and this film is not acceptable to you. Why watch Episode I if all the answers are in Episode V. What's the point. If you ask me how I met my wife, I would say at Work. It was more complicated than that, but it's a true story. This is the same for the description Obi-Wan gives in Episode V.
I expected nothing more than a continuation of the established continuity that he helped create along with Willam Huyck, Gloria Katz, and Lawrence Kasdan. Yes, wholeheartedly, we all should have expected Obi Wan Kenobi to be the guy to actually discover Anakin, be the one to witness Anakin's Force ability, and then foolishly decide to train him on his own. This was what George helped write and approve and this is what we should have gotten. Boring rehash of what we already know from the OT? Perhaps, but then again that's the writer's problem: to figure out how to make the "known" interesting. Such as, we are led to believe that Obi Wan will discover this kid and see his Force ability, but we don't know the specifics of how that will happen. Which one of us could have predicted that the pod race would be part of the plot? It was cool and attempted to do what was needed. But this is the inherent problem with any prequel-type story, no matter what literary property we're talking about. But you don't solve the problem of "boring rehash" by changing the established continuity outright. That's crazy!




Sorry this was a long post. I had a lot of points to cover. Don't be sorry at all. Presumably this is why we are here...to discuss, argue, understand, and have fun with it. Sometimes it takes just a word, sometimes not. It's all good. :)

gtrain29
09-04-2003, 11:35 AM
I just though I'd chime in about a couple things.
First of all, I totally disagree with stillakid's statement about Obi-Wan starting down the dark path. Every time I've wathed TPM I thought it was cool how he visibly calmed himself, controlling his anger & fear after the initial outburst. This was something Ani was unable to do in E2 and presumably E3. Luke also gave in to his anger at the end of Rotj which makes you believe he will follow his father's path, but unlike Ani, Luke is able to pull out when the choice is put to him.

I don't know, maybe I'm different, but I actually got the whole thing about the relationship between Obi & Qui-gon. I think it should have been played on more since it would add to Anakin's problems with Obi-Wan in later episodes, but certain glances at his master and outright confrontations about the boy hint at his jealousy of Qui-Gon's interest in the boy's potential over Obi-Wan's.
I must agree with you, stillakid, about Obi-Wan's role, though. I've brought this up before, too, because it doesn't make sense to me. I thought the trio of good guys in the PT were supposed to be Ani, Padme, and Obi to match Han, Luke, and Leia. However, the main good guys in TPM are Qui-Gon as #1, Jar Jar as #2, and take your choice of #3 maybe Panaka -- his character was certainly developed better than Obi, Ani, or Padme's. I also thought Darth Maul should have been the main bad guy as was Vader in ANH. But, I think it was the Nemoidians and Sidious. In fact, Maul didn't ever really do anything evil except for the lightsaber fight which seemed to be his only purpose in the movie. He could have at least taken out some of the naboo forces or choked the viceroy for getting out of line.

Finally, I also understood the whole plot about Palpy taking over the senate that Jaff mentioned. I had to watch it a few times, and I think it was way too deep for a SW movie, but I felt it was quite a clever scheme by old Palpy. Maybe they should have brought more of this out in the movie to make sure the audience would get it -- because I don't think a lot of people did. Then again, I think most movie goers just wanted to see lightsaber fights and special effects and didn't care about the plot.

Darth Kirk
02-09-2004, 09:04 PM
The Prequel Trilogy so far has had a bad rap; from the wooden-like acting to the inappropriate dialogue, etc. etc.. I myself though have thoroughly enjoyed both films and look forward to Episode III.. The thang is, it simply is a matter of taste, and we must not forget that what some felt in the summer of 1977, can not be recaptured because we are ALL much more savvy in our penchant for sci-fi/action films.. :crazed:

CropDuster
02-19-2004, 11:08 PM
I found it entertaining... however it was a major let down that GL didn't let professionals take care of the film making process. I wasn't expecting a cinematic masterpiece, but it could have been made so much better so easily (like adhering to the continuity of the OT story line for one). All the screw ups make certain portions of it hard to watch, and certain scenes are hard to watch AND hear (namely the ones with JJBinks).

arctangent
02-23-2004, 08:23 AM
my god. people admitting they like tpm? persecution and ridicule await!

i have to say that putting aside all the well worn arguments regarding plot lines, characterisation, etc., i think tpm is a very entertaining film. and that is ultimately what i go to the cinema for - to be entertained.

Turambar
02-23-2004, 11:57 AM
my god. people admitting they like tpm? persecution and ridicule await!

i have to say that putting aside all the well worn arguments regarding plot lines, characterisation, etc., i think tpm is a very entertaining film. and that is ultimately what i go to the cinema for - to be entertained.

Yes, entertaining, but certainly not enduring; which is what the Trilogy is.

arctangent
02-24-2004, 05:36 AM
Yes, entertaining, but certainly not enduring; which is what the Trilogy is.

don't know how you can say that. lets see in 25 years shall we? new star wars fans are going to view the six films as a whole and not think of them as we do, ie originl trilogy and prequal trilogy.

JangoFart
02-24-2004, 12:37 PM
Man, y'all should know better than to get stillakid goin' on this topic :)

I fail to see how this nit-picking is of any use. Stillakid's opinion is not a fact - it's just his opinion. Jaff's opinion is not a fact - it's just his opinion. I think some folks are incapable of separating those two designations - fact and opinion.

My OPINION of TPM is: Other than Jar Jar and little Ani, it is a FANTASTIC film. With Jar Jar and little Ani, it is an above-average film. Darth Maul was an incredible villian. This dude comes into a well-established universe with a HUGE set of shoes to fill and fills those shoes with great ease. Maul's fight scene with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan is as good as choreographed fighting gets - the timing of each Jedi's blow and the perfect counter, the use of the force to throw that piece of whatever into the door to open it, that mean-*** stare, etc. I truly hated to see him die.

Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon do have conflicting personalities and that's plain and apparent in the film. Those who don't need to be spoon-fed can easily pick up on that. (Not to dis anyone who didn't pick up on it; but, it's plain and easy to pick up on.) However, their relationship is still based upon mutual respect and love for one another. I love my dad, but I don't agree with everything he says/has said or does/has done. That type of relationship is conveyed well in the movie, IMO.

The political moves of Palpatine, I thought, were perfect. The little quote he gives Anakin at the end of TPM is great too - "And young Skywalker; we shall watch your progress with GREAT interest. (added by a little sly grin)" (I think that's the exact quote - haven't seen it in a while.)

The things that really hurt TPM are: Jar Jar and Jake Llyod's ultra-stiff, unbelievable delivery of dialogue. "Sand....storms....are....very....very....dang...er ...ous...." UGH!!! I think the childish aspects of Jar Jar are just carry-overs from Lucas' love of Ewoks and the reaction those critters got from kids. He probably wanted something else that he could strap onto a 5 to 8 yr old and make him/her dig the movie more than if it were as "adult" as it would have been w/o Jar Jar.

The farewell scene with Anakin and Shmi was great and was surely the highpoint of Jake's performance in that movie. It made AOTC's reunion between mother and son that more potent. Also, Jake's job in the podrace was great - he gave the impression that he KNEW what he was doing in driving that thing and did it without the gee-wiz attitude and the "I'm so stoked to be in this movie" attitude of Jake's performance in just about every other scene. His flying of the Naboo Starfighter kills me....

I think that TPM is, by no means, a perfect movie - either on its own or as a part of the SW universe. It is, however, very entertaining and a better flick than that hunk-o-crap ROTJ. Is it ANH? ESB? No and there will be, in my mind, no topping of those 2 movies - either by a SW movie or any other sci-fi flick. Those 2 are the Mecca movies for nerds like myself.

I'm just totally stoked for EP3 and can't wait to see it. Until then, I'll watch ESB, ANH, TPM, AOTC, and ROTJ (in that order) until I can get my fix.

J

JediTricks
02-24-2004, 05:39 PM
don't know how you can say that. lets see in 25 years shall we? new star wars fans are going to view the six films as a whole and not think of them as we do, ie originl trilogy and prequal trilogy. Well, it's already been 5 years and the film is already largely poorly thought of, I think that's a telling sign.

And as for future generations seeing it as one saga instead of 2 trilogies, in Lucas's dreams maybe. I don't buy it, you can see the differences in the trilogies quite plainly, they aren't telling the same story as each other and they aren't made like each other. Until Lucas special-editions the OT to the point of being unrecognizable, I cannot imagine newbies to the saga in 25 years or 250 years viewing the trilogies and not seeing them as 2 separate entities.

mabudonicus
02-26-2004, 08:04 AM
Ahhhh.. I let this one grow a bit before reading it, wanted to make sure I didn't repeat anything Stilla was going to say :D

I watched the film again about a month ago and somehow it was even worse, what a mess.. for some reason, the "podrace" and the "underwater tomfoolery" were so lame it hurts me to think about it.... it was like a big platter of fake food rotating for several minutes, steaming all the while...
I mean, neither scene seemed like part fo the film;
in contrast the "asteroid duel" in AOTC just kinda happened, somehow that scene worked a LOT better (and better than the taxi chase, which seemed like a "transition" between the wooden acting in front of tacked-on set-piece style of TPM and the slightly more "kinetic" feel of clones)
TPM was like ILM making a bad Fall Guy episode somehow... if Lee Majors was playing qui-gon maybe it would have worked, at least he knows he stinks :)

I mean, just the muffed lines in TPM are enough to write it off as sloppy, and the problems don't stop there...

Stilla- love the "manual" comments, bang on man :beard:!!!

JEDIpartner
03-01-2004, 08:49 AM
my god. people admitting they like tpm? persecution and ridicule await!

i have to say that putting aside all the well worn arguments regarding plot lines, characterisation, etc., i think tpm is a very entertaining film. and that is ultimately what i go to the cinema for - to be entertained.
Exactly... and the whole thing is that the stories actually get better. I mean... it's not such a bad thing when the fourth story is "A New Hope", is it?

dr_evazan22
03-01-2004, 09:29 PM
I saw it was on again last night so I popped in the DVD (had wanted to watch it again for a while). One of my favorite scene's is where they enter the podrace hangar and Kittster says he'll do it this time (do what? finish the race of course! DUH!). I think that has some great kid acting there.