The Duel!!!

[Pendo]

Today's set diary is discussing a new aspect of the duel, and it sounds quite interesting. Both Obi-Wan and Anakin are suspended in mid air and are both hanging from wires - WHILE THEY'RE STILL DUELING!!! I can see this being where Anakin falls into the lava pit (if it does happen). Either Obi could cut Ani's wire, or Anakin could slip.

PENDO!

[derek]

Today's set diary is discussing a new aspect of the duel, and it sounds quite interesting. Both Obi-Wan and Anakin are suspended in mid air and are both hanging from wires - WHILE THEY'RE STILL DUELING!!! I can see this being where Anakin falls into the lava pit (if it does happen). Either Obi could cut Ani's wire, or Anakin could slip.

PENDO!


i would hope they aren't going to be attached to wires in the actual movie, but instead hopefully the wires are being used to simulate a jedi jumping a great distance. that would be really wierd if they were attached to wires in the film. did palpatine put them on leashes and say, "fight!"

and i hope uncle george isn't bringing the matrix style camera effects into the series. i don't want bullet time saber duels, but i also don't want floating, flying jedi........this ain't peter pan or croughing tiger..... :happy:

[plo koon 200]

It seems like George is going more and more for the Matrix. We first saw it with the Yoda duel and we will see it again. George is just another sell out who has to copy off the Matrix like everyone else. The funny thing is that people will only remember the Matriux for being the Matrix and not a single film out of the hundreds or thousands that copy off of it. George honestly should use his own style and not copy off other Directors.

[derek]

i have to disagree with you comparing the yoda fight scene with anything seen in the 2 matrix films. there were no "bullet time" camera moves, kung fu or slow motion stuff in episode 2.

[Pendo]

They're not attatched to the wires, they're holding onto them with one hand, and dueling with the other. I don't think it is at all like the Matrix.

PENDO!

[Anakin2121]

i don't want bullet time saber duels

Not trying to debunk the rest of the series, but that might actually be pretty neat if it's well-done. After all, in Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast, it went into a neat third-person roundabout "bullet time" kind of thing when you used your saber to kill an enemy...although of course, you could disable that feature in the game if you wanted to. :)

I mean, everything we've seen and read is saying that this duel is going to be leagues ahead of what we've seen before. That means it won't just be flipping, cutting, and jumping around, which we already saw plenty of in TPM and AOTC. It will, in all likelihood, be something [b]fresh[/i]. After all, it's supposed to be some twenty minutes long, and if it's patterned like the saber duels we've already seen, then it'd get old quick. I hope it has a lot of new stuff to present, while not necessarily bullet time (although slow motion wouldn't be THAT out of the question...after all, Luke's hallucination in ESB when he decapitated Vader was in slow-motion), maybe new angles, like seeing them dueling from overhead/bird's-eye view, or maybe a lot of kicks and punches between saber strikes.

Like when Anakin and Dooku were fighting in the dark for a few seconds in AOTC, and of course when Anakin used the two sabers against Dooku. Those are both examples of what I'd call adding something fresh and new to a duel. I hope that sort of thing is done again here.

End of speech. :)

[Jargo]

But if they make the duel too good then the rest of the saga will look crap. Vader goes from being the best swordsman ever to being a weird old man in a fancy dress costume and his only opponents are an old man who outwits him and a young punk who bests him. Having too much in ep3 will take so much away from the rest of the story. Yes the duel should go on for a while but leave the wizzy effects out please. Concentrate on the storytelling. I'd hate to see Matrix style effects in star wars. Coccaine hit Yoda duelling Dooku was bad enough.

[Pendo]

We have already been told that George doesn't like the Matrix Bullet Time effects and will not be incorporating any of them into the Star Wars movies. Can't remember where it was said (possibly one of the chats with Rick McPrick), but I've deffo heard it.

PENDO!

[Anakin2121]

But if they make the duel too good then the rest of the saga will look crap. Vader goes from being the best swordsman ever to being a weird old man in a fancy dress costume and his only opponents are an old man who outwits him and a young punk who bests him. Having too much in ep3 will take so much away from the rest of the story. Yes the duel should go on for a while but leave the wizzy effects out please. Concentrate on the storytelling. I'd hate to see Matrix style effects in star wars. Coccaine hit Yoda duelling Dooku was bad enough.

Well, who ever said Vader was the best swordsman ever? Once he has the armor on it probably slows him down considerably. He's a crippled half-man half-machine contraption at that point anyway. :D

And I thought they were going to make the EP3 duel look leagues ahead of what's been seen in the rest of the Saga. At the very least this definitely will be the longest one. I'm constantly hearing that they had to make various cuts and edits, and tone things down a bit for the EP1 and EP2 duels, to help the one in EP3 look amazing.

We'll know soon enough come 2005. :)

[plo koon 200]

So let me get this straight. We go from having the best lightsaber duel in EP. 3 to the worst in EIV. On top of that we are also supposed to have the best ever space battle in Ep. 3. I have said it before and I will say it again but I fear the way they are making Ep.3 will almost make it pointless to even watch the OT. Especially the ultra slow ANH.

[stillakid]

It seems like George is going more and more for the Matrix. We first saw it with the Yoda duel and we will see it again. George is just another sell out who has to copy off the Matrix like everyone else. The funny thing is that people will only remember the Matriux for being the Matrix and not a single film out of the hundreds or thousands that copy off of it. George honestly should use his own style and not copy off other Directors.


But that's always been George's "style." The rest of the films are chock full o' "lifted" elements from other people. What made the original trilogy great was the way that the various influences were weaved together to create a tapestry of ancient mythology and modern pop culture.

Yes, it does get annoying when some elements are soooo obviously just flat out stolen and used outright (ie. opening shot of AOTC taken directly from The Fifth Element), but by now everyone should expect this from George.

I suspect that the wire technique has less to do with the Matrix fx than it is an influence from Asian films like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Really nothing new and has been used in previous Star Wars films already.

[Pendo]

So let me get this straight. We go from having the best lightsaber duel in EP. 3 to the worst in EIV. On top of that we are also supposed to have the best ever space battle in Ep. 3. I have said it before and I will say it again but I fear the way they are making Ep.3 will almost make it pointless to even watch the OT. Especially the ultra slow ANH.

There is more to the Star Wars films than just action. If Episode III has the best action sequence ever seen in a movie it would not mean the OT would be pointless to watch. What about the amazing story? What about all the other elements the OT has that the PT is missing. It seems to me that all the PT is about is the action, but the OT is where the real magic lies so I don't care if Episode III has the best action :).

And ANH ultra slow :stupid:!!!??? I think ANH is one of the fastest:)!

PENDO!

[Anakin2121]

So let me get this straight. We go from having the best lightsaber duel in EP. 3 to the worst in EIV. On top of that we are also supposed to have the best ever space battle in Ep. 3. I have said it before and I will say it again but I fear the way they are making Ep.3 will almost make it pointless to even watch the OT. Especially the ultra slow ANH.

On the contrary...we never really understand things like lightsabers and the Force until Obi-Wan explains 'em to Luke in ANH. And I agree with Pendo, the Star Wars films are not made great on action alone. I think EP3's action will suck audiences in so they will be willing to see what the OT has to offer. :)

[stillakid]

There is more to the Star Wars films than just action. If Episode III has the best action sequence ever seen in a movie it would not mean the OT would be pointless to watch. What about the amazing story? What about all the other elements the OT has that the PT is missing. It seems to me that all the PT is about is the action, but the OT is where the real magic lies so I don't care if Episode III has the best action :).

And ANH ultra slow :stupid:!!!??? I think ANH is one of the fastest:)!

PENDO!

Definitely! In my humble opinion, TPM drags the worst primarily because it has so little actual content to it. Oh, there are a couple bits dropped in sporadically, but then there are vast wastelands of extraneous time until somebody whips out a lightsaber.

And I can hear the excuses now: "The Prequels are supposed to be mostly exposition and we're all adults now so we don't see the films the same way we used to and blah blah blah..." Wrong. A well told story is a well told story no matter when it was written, no matter the age of the audience.

We already know what is supposed to happen in Episode III. The trick for George is to do it in a way that is both intellectually stimulating and emotionally titillating, while at the same time not feeding into the Hollywood style fear which leads to making innane moves which jeopardize the continuity and surprises of the original trilogy. That's a lot of responsibility. Let's see how well he does.... :sur:

[plo koon 200]

What I meant to say Pendo is that with this age's generation the kids could care less and the adults that matter about EIV because it wont offer them anything new action wise. I can just here the kids in the theater if they rereleased ANH "BORING!!!" I'm not saying that it is slow but to the modern day perspective it is because it offers no action. People just don't seem to appreciate a good story. Just look at all the films people watch these days. Its all about special effects. So few kids care about an actual story. Probably because the education system is horrid and fails to teach the kids the importance of plot. But as it is kids don't have a clue what a plot is.

[derek]

I can just hear the kids in the theater saying if they re-released ANH "BORING!!!" I'm not saying that it is slow but to the modern day perspective it is because it offers no action.

are we taling about the same "episode 4"? the one which was re-released a few years ago(1997) and made over $20 million in 3 days?
.....yea, no one wanted to see that old movie....... :crazed: :rolleyes: :confused:

[Mr. JabbaJohnL]

I cannot wait to see this!!! But, how the hell will they be able to fight holding onto wires?

It would be cool if it showed Anakin falling and "dying," perhaps a la Obi's Kamino tumble in AOTC, with Obi-Wan all sad and such. Then later, a new Sith Lord called Darth Vader appears and kicks the crap out of everyone. :D

[stillakid]

People just don't seem to appreciate a good story. Just look at all the films people watch these days. Its all about special effects. So few kids care about an actual story. Probably because the education system is horrid and fails to teach the kids the importance of plot. But as it is kids don't have a clue what a plot is.

I don't agree. True, the biggest audiences go to the "Schockbusters," which typically have a lower ratio of plot:action, however I truly believe that that is nothing but a stereotype.

There have been numerous huge blockbusters which have also had very strong stories, characters, and action in combination. Just about anything by James Cameron falls into that category. Brian DePalma is pretty good at it as well as Martin Scorsese.

Of course the list of shoot em ups is pretty long too (pick a Michael Bay flick), but on the whole, we're not as bad off as so many people would like to believe.

The alternative, as they might suggest, would be to have nothing but "European" films, chock full of love and plot and flowing flashbacks and....<put me to sleep>

We're all human. We all appreciate something actually happening onscreen as opposed to a bunch of stuffy people with accents discussing unrequited love or other lofty pursuits.

Again, the trick is to achieve both. The action is just another tool to help tell the story just as much as dialogue and production design, and camera movement and editing, and everything else that goes into that two hours of screentime. Action is necessary just as long as it is supporting the story and doesn't become the focal point in the same way that the SFX have pretty much taken over the Star Wars Prequels as top priority.

[jawaboy]

What angers Anakin so much that he confronts Obi-wan in a duel?

I'm thinking that Obi-wan refuses to tell Anakin where Padme is and that just drives him crazy. Now that he senses Anakin has fallen to the dark side and is under the powers of the Emperor, he feels an urge to protect Luke and Leia from Anakin and the Emperor.

I think Anakin will come to know that she has had a child and demands to know where she and the child are. Obi-wan knows but refuses to tell Anakin and that just infuriates him and causes him to turn on his former master.

There has to be something that makes Anakin just absolutely flip. What do you think it is???

[Anakin2121]

There has to be something that makes Anakin just absolutely flip. What do you think it is???

I knew even right after seeing Episode I that his mom would die and that would seriously drive him near the edge. And in Episode II I was proven right. :D
Padme, or something to do with Padme, is almost guaranteed to be what pushes him over the edge. I mean, what else could Anakin be so emotional about? One of the Younglings doesn't polish his boots well enough? :D

[Jedi_Master_Guyute]

Its all about special effects. So few kids care about an actual story. Probably because the education system is horrid and fails to teach the kids the importance of plot. But as it is kids don't have a clue what a plot is.

Eh, gonna hafta disagree with you there, Plo. My nephew is nearly 7 and he loves AOTC as much as he loves the OT. He follows and loves the plot immensely. It's funny to watch him to follow it and after he sorts it all out, he gets really giddy. So, i think it varies from kid to kid about plot. :D

As for this duel, I think the word "wires" are freaking some y'all out. I think maybe they're dueling on something and it gets knocked over/destroyed and they both prolly grasp on to something for a sec, duel a bit and then find ground again. I don't think this is going to be like watching two circus performers on a trapeeze swinging back and forth. :D

[stillakid]

What I meant to say Pendo is that with this age's generation the kids could care less and the adults that matter about EIV because it wont offer them anything new action wise. I can just here the kids in the theater if they rereleased ANH "BORING!!!" I'm not saying that it is slow but to the modern day perspective it is because it offers no action. People just don't seem to appreciate a good story. Just look at all the films people watch these days. Its all about special effects. So few kids care about an actual story. Probably because the education system is horrid and fails to teach the kids the importance of plot. But as it is kids don't have a clue what a plot is.


I have to disagree as well. My own son (then 7 years old) figured out all on his own that something was wrong with TPM and asked me why Obi Wan wasn't the guy finding Anakin and everything else. He managed to reference the parts from the original films (videotapes for him ;) ) when I pressed him on what made him say such a thing.

See, I know that this is what George believes: that kids are too frickin' stupid or not interested enough in an actual storyline that makes linear sense, but it just isn't the case. As a kid, I was interested in and understood plot and kids today do as well. The only difference between the two groups is that as adults, we are (many of us anyway) capable of articulating our critiques in more specific and defined ways. Just because kids use the vernacular "cool" to describe just about everything they like, doesn't mean that they are idiots and only interested in bright shiny objects.

The best "kid" movies and tv shows that have ever been made (ie, Looney Tunes, for one) weren't "dumbed down" for kids. They were made for the adults who were in charge of creating them. A lightsaber fight is only really interesting if the events that transpire to get the characters (and audience) there in the first place are intriguing enough to sit through. Sure, like any kind of sweet candy, a "cool" special fx or stunt sequence is attractive. But without a solid foundation underneath it, it will soon grow stale and unwatched.

We all know what is supposed to happen (in general) during and after the fight. Here's to hoping that it isn't just a gratuitous display that is "BIGGER" and "BETTER" than all the rest "just because." If the fight requires just three moves to get the point across, so be it. If it requires a hundred, so be it. But if it's overdone just to be flashy "for the kids," then George will once again have failed to understand what actually made his original creations so popular.

[Jedi Clint]

As for this duel, I think the word "wires" are freaking some y'all out. I think maybe they're dueling on something and it gets knocked over/destroyed and they both prolly grasp on to something for a sec, duel a bit and then find ground again. I don't think this is going to be like watching two circus performers on a trapeeze swinging back and forth. :D

That's basically what I was thinking when I read it as well JMG.

[Darkross]

The thing about the OT is that they are the only films that have the "magic"...TPM was fine...and AOTC rejuvenated my faith in the Saga...but neither have that special something. ANH only appears to be slower than the rest of the films because of the time it takes for R2 and 3P0 to find Obi-Wan and start things up again. The whole Death Star escape sequence was always my favorite scene in the movie and as a child seeing that was what made Star Wars extremely exciting and fun to watch. From there the movies only seem to have gotten better...as GL and ILM learn new tricks to make things look even cooler and to me Empire is the best film of the entire Saga (best story, effects etc...) So like all films...at least we can say that the SW sequels (not really sequels) have at least been better than ANH...since most sequels suck totally in comparison to the original film...with the exception of the Terminator series. No matter how Episode III turns out...I suspect it will still be pale in comparison to ESB. I'm an OT purist...but I do love the PT also...just not as much. Hopefully we'll see a nice long uninterrupted lightsaber duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan.

[The Overlord Returns]

Yes, it does get annoying when some elements are soooo obviously just flat out stolen and used outright (ie. opening shot of AOTC taken directly from The Fifth Element


Which, ofcourse, The Fifth Element lifted from the opening shot of EVERY OT film ;)

[Beast]

Oh yes, cause the Fifth Element was the only film to ever feature a giant futuristic city with flying vehicles. Blade Runner, for one. Like that's not a staple of science fiction going back to early books and serials way before Fifth Element. And I guess everyone seems to forget the movie 'Metropolis', for one. Not to mention designs and ideas for the 'Imperial Planet' pre-date Fifth Element. I'm sure if Lucas were going to steal an idea from a movie, it would be a better one then the piece of crap known as 'Fifth Element'. :p :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[stillakid]

sigh...I'd dig up the specifics of what I was saying if I felt like having to prove it again. But there's no point really.


But there is no denying that George cobbled together a myriad of influences to shape every detail of the saga, both in the OT and the Prequels. Why people have such a hard time wanting to admit that George freely lifts stuff is beyond me. :confused: It's not as much an indictment over his "style," but rather a statement of fact. It's your choice to judge it as you see fit.

[The Overlord Returns]

sigh...I'd dig up the specifics of what I was saying if I felt like having to prove it again. But there's no point really.


But there is no denying that George cobbled together a myriad of influences to shape every detail of the saga, both in the OT and the Prequels. Why people have such a hard time wanting to admit that George freely lifts stuff is beyond me. :confused: It's not as much an indictment over his "style," but rather a statement of fact. It's your choice to judge it as you see fit.

Oh I'm not denying it at all.......however I think the fifth element scene that is brought up to decry Lucas so often is one of the weaker examples.....the best you can say is he's lifting from a movie that lifted almost everything it had from star wars......

[2-1B]

I agree, The Fifth Element is a weak comparison. I hadn't seen the film until last year and I went into it looking for this "soooo obviously just flat out stolen and used outright" opening shot and I don't see that at all.

Yeah, they're quite similar, but given the generic idea of a spaceship coming in on a city-planet, of course it's gonna look similar.

And besides, 5th E opened with a side scroll while AOTC came up from underneath. :D

[stillakid]

Oh I'm not denying it at all.......however I think the fifth element scene that is brought up to decry Lucas so often is one of the weaker examples.....the best you can say is he's lifting from a movie that lifted almost everything it had from star wars......

I was talking with a French friend of mine and while I'm unfamiliar with the material myself, he decried Fifth Element because it apparently "borrowed" heavily from many other French sources (comics, etc.) It seems the only true "creators" were the ancient storytellers who concocted the mythologies that we base everything else on today.


As far as that opening shot goes, what I'm talking about is the extremely similar manner in which the camera reveals the planets in both films. Yes, yes, this general concept isn't anything new, but the specific manner in which it was done in this case didn't escape my notice.

[Imperial Monarche]

It seems like George is going more and more for the Matrix. We first saw it with the Yoda duel and we will see it again. George is just another sell out who has to copy off the Matrix like everyone else. The funny thing is that people will only remember the Matriux for being the Matrix and not a single film out of the hundreds or thousands that copy off of it. George honestly should use his own style and not copy off other Directors.


Huh?! When?! Tell me how the Yoda fight resembled anything from the Matrix! Contrary to most people's belief, the Matrix didn't invent fast fight scenes, it's just the most recent in people's mind. Besides, the Yoda fight was just fast, it never slowed down or did "bullet time". If Lucas is copying anyone's style, he's copying himself. The Matrix copied Star Wars and then improved on the style. Yoda's duel was just liked when Obi and Maul went at it and that came out one week after the first Matrix, can't copy something that hasnt been released.

Back to the wire thing, the set diary said they were swinging from wires that are actually in the movie, they'd just have another set of wires attached to keep them stable. That wire will be erased in the real movie.

[Imperial Monarche]

sigh...I'd dig up the specifics of what I was saying if I felt like having to prove it again. But there's no point really.


But there is no denying that George cobbled together a myriad of influences to shape every detail of the saga, both in the OT and the Prequels. Why people have such a hard time wanting to admit that George freely lifts stuff is beyond me. :confused: It's not as much an indictment over his "style," but rather a statement of fact. It's your choice to judge it as you see fit.


of course he does, but in reality...who doesn't? even the 'great' Wachoski brothers lifted ideas when coming up with The Matrix. there's no such thing as an original idea anymore, it's either straight lifted or improved upon.

i'm not sure what you mean in your tone, stilla, but are you mad because he lifts ideas? from the way you talk, you're not but i just want to be sure. i have been meaning to ask you, though. you do alot of PT bashing and i understand why, you are more story driven and would like the PT to be that way (i am too in a way, i just haven't really found all that lucas has done in the PT all that bad as you have) but is there anything that you do like about the PT? and with that, are you even going to bother seeing Ep. III since you have pretty much built it into your mind that it's going to suck?

[plo koon 200]

Huh?! When?! Tell me how the Yoda fight resembled anything from the Matrix! Contrary to most people's belief, the Matrix didn't invent fast fight scenes, it's just the most recent in people's mind. Besides, the Yoda fight was just fast, it never slowed down or did "bullet time". If Lucas is copying anyone's style, he's copying himself. The Matrix copied Star Wars and then improved on the style. Yoda's duel was just liked when Obi and Maul went at it and that came out one week after the first Matrix, can't copy something that hasnt been released.

Back to the wire thing, the set diary said they were swinging from wires that are actually in the movie, they'd just have another set of wires attached to keep them stable. That wire will be erased in the real movie.

The Yoda Dooku was not at all like any of the other duels, and it is nowhere close to the Maul duel. It was just the way the duel was executed that it felt so much like the Matrix. Don't forget EII came out three years after the Matrix.

[Mr. JabbaJohnL]

The Yoda Dooku was not at all like any of the other duels, and it is nowhere close to the Maul duel. It was just the way the duel was executed that it felt so much like the Matrix. Don't forget EII came out three years after the Matrix.
How it was executed? What are you talking about? There was nothing like that in The Matrix. It didn't slow down and Dooku didn't bend backwards to avoid Yoda or anything. Please elaborate, someone, anyone.

[Jedi_Master_Guyute]

How it was executed? What are you talking about? There was nothing like that in The Matrix. It didn't slow down and Dooku didn't bend backwards to avoid Yoda or anything. Please elaborate, someone, anyone.

My thoughts exactly Mr. Homestar...my thoughts exactly.
I mean, there was that one part in the duel where it felt like the matrix...that part was...oh, wait, i don't remember it, because there isn't any part that feels ilke the matrix in that scene! :crazed:

[Pendo]

My thoughts exactly Mr. Homestar...my thoughts exactly.
I mean, there was that one part in the duel where it felt like the matrix...that part was...oh, wait, i don't remember it, because there isn't any part that feels ilke the matrix in that scene! :crazed:
I thought the way the camera panned around Yoda as he grabbed his lightsaber was a Matrix style shot.

PENDO!

[Anakin2121]

I thought the way the camera panned around Yoda as he grabbed his lightsaber was a Matrix style shot.

PENDO!

I disagree. The camera didn't even pan a full 360 degrees. It wasn't in extreme slow-motion, and didn't have the motion-blur effect. So what, every time a movie has a camera pan, you think it's a Matrix knockoff? :p :crazed:

[Pendo]

No, but that effect has never been used in a Star Wars movie until the Matrix did it. Until the Matrix did their bullet-time thing I had never seen a pan around a character like that before. Just because it wasn't in slow-motion or a full 360 degree turn doesn't mean it wasn't a "Matrix knockoff" as you put it. The Matrix probably had a big influence on that scene, would George really have said "Let's have the camera move around Yoda as he's doing that" if the Matrix hadn't have used the effect first?

Everytime I watch that clip I just see The Matrix.

PENDO!

[Mr. JabbaJohnL]

I guess you could see it that way, I however do not. Ah well, to each his own.

[darthzirock]

I thought the way the camera panned around Yoda as he grabbed his lightsaber was a Matrix-style shot.

The camera didn't pan Yoda, it dollied, because the entire camera and tripod moved, not just the camera moving on the tripod head. (Technically, it only dollied around the set, because Yoda is a post-production CGI construct. :p ) Try watching a few old Sergio Leone Westerns sometime. It was just like dozens of shots where a bad@$$ gunfighter's guns are revealed. Similar shots have also been used when a swordsman goes for his weapon in pirate movies, Robin Hood movies, and Three Musketeers movies. The only thing different about that shot was Yoda using the Force to bring his lightsaber to his hand, instead of him actually reached around to his side for the weapon--and that was a nice, original touch! (Or did Keanu do that in The Matrix, too? I have no idea, as I've never bothered to watch the only actor that is more wooden than Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christensen in anything since 1992's Bram Stoker's Dracula. And before you start getting hysterical and saying how can I even comment if I've never seen it, I mean that I've never sat through the entire film, but I've seen hundreds of clips from all 3!)