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stillakid
09-04-2003, 10:34 AM
I was just reading another post wherein someone commented about wanting a "black" Bespin Guard, and some kind of automatic response kicked in and I immediately mentally corrected him with (whisper) African American.

First, I've always thought that that kind of deliniation was silly being that not all "African Americans" really came from Africa, and in fact, hardly anyone who is alive in America today has ever seen Africa.

But I digress. The silliness of my correction hit me when I realized that the Star Wars Galaxy probably doesn't have an Africa anywhere. For that matter, it doesn't have an Asia, or a Central America, or an Eastern Europe. While on one hand, it's easy to look at a Mon Calamari guy and see that they all come from one unique planet, where did all the human "races" come from in the Star Wars galaxy?

Of course, we don't know exactly how or why the races became so (superficially) different here on Earth, and that kind of understanding would go a long way in helping to explain the question as it applies to Star Wars, but did all humans there come from just one planet and then spread like locusts all over the place? Or is there a "white" planet, and a "black" planet, and an "Asian" planet, and a "Hispanic" planet? (did I miss anyone?)

The Overlord Returns
09-04-2003, 10:38 AM
My guess would be that they started on one planet...and throughout the centuries migrated perhaps to other planets....

If you consider the idea that Mon Cals, Quarren, Wookies, and the like have similar superficial differamces that the human populations do, it makes sense that they all started on their own planet, and moved throughout the galaxy to new systems and such. Tattooine alone seems like a planet made up entirely of migrants from other systems....save for the Tuskens, of course......it's like a mirror of frontier times in North America....

mabudonicus
09-04-2003, 12:54 PM
Oooohh- before this thread goes astray and gets closed, the strangest observation...
Okay, in Star Trek, the planet Vulcan has so many light-skinned people on it??? I mean, on earth the differences in colour are largely due to climate and stuff, and since it seems that most of vulcan is arid desert, why would there be different colours, or even why would there be any light-skinned individuals, if the whole place was a blazing desert??? How come they at least all don't have healthy tans or anything???
I always thought that was real funny

The Overlord Returns
09-04-2003, 01:01 PM
I don't see how this thread would be closed....

I've never really considered the vulcan question.....seems more rocky than desert though....

stillakid
09-04-2003, 03:42 PM
Following that logic, why don't the Mon Calamari dry up?

The Overlord Returns
09-04-2003, 03:51 PM
Following that logic, why don't the Mon Calamari dry up?

i always assumed that's why they all seemed to wear a similar looking outfit......something that could keep them hydrated in their suits?

Exhaust Port
09-04-2003, 04:26 PM
Oooohh- before this thread goes astray and gets closed, the strangest observation...
Okay, in Star Trek, the planet Vulcan has so many light-skinned people on it??? I mean, on earth the differences in colour are largely due to climate and stuff, and since it seems that most of vulcan is arid desert, why would there be different colours, or even why would there be any light-skinned individuals, if the whole place was a blazing desert??? How come they at least all don't have healthy tans or anything???
I always thought that was real funny

I would guess that hundreds of years of living as non-desert inhabitants would eventually lead to a lightening of their skin. At the point that we see the Vulcans they are a civilization of space travelers so the genetic need for a darker skin tone is long gone. Just like how humans are evolving to have have less and less body hair than their cave dwelling counterparts.

JediTricks
09-05-2003, 04:51 AM
Oooohh- before this thread goes astray and gets closed, the strangest observation...
Okay, in Star Trek, the planet Vulcan has so many light-skinned people on it??? I mean, on earth the differences in colour are largely due to climate and stuff, and since it seems that most of vulcan is arid desert, why would there be different colours, or even why would there be any light-skinned individuals, if the whole place was a blazing desert??? How come they at least all don't have healthy tans or anything???
I always thought that was real funny Green blood.

:D


Anyway, as Overlord pointed out, Wookiees, Mon Cal, Neimoidians, Ugnauts, Ewoks, Gungans, and especially Twi'leks lately, all have different races within their species, it's not so hard to believe that humans would too. Why would their home planets work any differently from ours? Earth has varying environments that facilitate physical differences in the evolutions of peoples, why not Corellia, Alderaan, Coruscant, and wherever?

So do the humans call them "black" and "white"? I wouldn't think so, that seems like a pair of woefully inaccurate descriptions. Would they even have terms to describe them as a race at all? My guess there is that because of all those non-humanoid species cohabitating the SW galaxy, the humans would band together rather than segregate themselves and not recognize an artificial social stigma based simply on skin color.

Exhaust Port
09-05-2003, 08:48 AM
I think the Gungans show the best example of differences within one species (other than humans). Look at the differences between Jar Jar and Boss Nass.

As for why humans would all hang out together, "birds of a feather flock together." I think language and biological needs would keep most species living together. Humans would have food, medical, habitual needs that wouldn't suit other species living with them. Humans would then set up shop with a micro-culture that would incompass their every need. Either you live within that area or you tough it out with the Huts and try to find a doctor that knows what the heck legs do. :)

kool-aid killer
09-05-2003, 11:32 AM
I agree with whoever brought up different races in their species. They probably do have names for the places where they were born but since its a galaxy wide community they go by the name of their planets. Like for example, lets say Earth was in the Star Wars universe. We have Russia, India, Colombia, Canada etc. but it would be easier to identify yourself as an Earthling. I doubt there is a planet whose main population is human that is strictly white, black, brown, red, or any other color. Look at Correllia, Han is white and if i recall correctly isnt Adi Gallia the from the same planet. She doesnt have white skin. In short, i dont think skin color would be a big deal (if any at all) in the Star Wars universe.

stillakid
09-05-2003, 11:42 AM
In short, i dont think skin color would be a big deal (if any at all) in the Star Wars universe.

That's an interesting question. I'd have to go back and look hard, but are there any "minorities" (by Earth standards) on any of the Imperial ships in the OT? Palpatine seems to be the type to be "racist," or at least "speciest" when it comes to filling out his ranks. Afterall, I doubt that Stormtrooper armor would fit anything other than a human.

The Overlord Returns
09-05-2003, 11:47 AM
That's an interesting question. I'd have to go back and look hard, but are there any "minorities" (by Earth standards) on any of the Imperial ships in the OT? Palpatine seems to be the type to be "racist," or at least "speciest" when it comes to filling out his ranks. Afterall, I doubt that Stormtrooper armor would fit anything other than a human.

I think it's well documented within the EU that Palps had a great hatred for anything non human...the only real exception being Thrawn, for his incredible skill and valor. I don't know if that hatred would transfer over onto non white humans in the galaxy at all....but I can't recall seeing a non white imperial officer....

mabudonicus
09-05-2003, 11:49 AM
yeah, being intergalatic and having so many different "beings" to refer to would totally make racial prejudices even sillier than they are now...

Green Blood?? Darn it, trekkies can be SO technical ;)

kool-aid killer
09-05-2003, 12:02 PM
Overlord Returns, i recall reading something about how the Emperor disliked non humans. Something tells me though that he also disliked humans of color too. Wasnt Thrawn half human? And didnt he get crappy jobs too? His dislike may come from being from Naboo and possibly his fear of the Gungans. Some people dont like others of a different skin due to being afraid of them for whatever reasons. And if he didnt like Gungans i dont think it would be hard for him to dislike other species that arent human. Ive never heard of a racist who dislikes one group with a different skin color but likes one of another. But i can honestly say George Lucas didnt think that (my little piece about dislike of Gungans and the Emperor subsequently disliking other species) out before he created the movies.

Exhaust Port
09-05-2003, 05:01 PM
That's an interesting question. I'd have to go back and look hard, but are there any "minorities" (by Earth standards) on any of the Imperial ships in the OT? Palpatine seems to be the type to be "racist," or at least "speciest" when it comes to filling out his ranks. Afterall, I doubt that Stormtrooper armor would fit anything other than a human.

With the Empire paralleling the Nazi's of the 1930's and '40's it's no suprise that GL didn't include any minorities/aliens in the Imperial population. They were a "selective" race.

Kidhuman
09-05-2003, 06:37 PM
Overlord Returns, i recall reading something about how the Emperor disliked non humans. Something tells me though that he also disliked humans of color too. Wasnt Thrawn half human? And didnt he get crappy jobs too?


Thrawn actually held one of the highest ranks in the Empire. He was a Grand Admiral. His military expertise and knowledge of other speicies helped him out a great deal. I dont recall if he was half human though. In the Heir to the Empire series, you can read all about him, if you havent read those already. They are pretty good books.

gtrain29
09-05-2003, 09:47 PM
Thrawn actually held one of the highest ranks in the Empire. He was a Grand Admiral. His military expertise and knowledge of other speicies helped him out a great deal. I dont recall if he was half human though. In the Heir to the Empire series, you can read all about him, if you havent read those already. They are pretty good books.

Thrawn was just a figment of Timothy Zahn's imagination that seemed to catch on with a lot of SW fans but is quite inconsistent with the Lucas empire actually shown on screen.
I think those were the best of the EU books taking place post-Rotj, but there are so many absurd things. For example, I never could understand how looking at art work could let you know exactly when where and how someone would attack you. I'd think a grand admiral would do better spending time studying the latest military tactics -- like how to prevent the rebel's from blowing up a death star. But maybe that was the problem -- all the high ranking imps were to busy in art galleries to focus on crushing the rebellion. I'll quit ranting now.

I do find it odd, though, if Palpy is such a racist sexist speciesist? that he is surrounded by alien (some of them female) advisors in the PT. Maybe it's just for cover and he'll turn on them later, but I would like to see at least a glimpse of a young imp dignitary or palpy's preferential treatment of caucasian male humans since they fill the imperial ranks from top to bottom.

stillakid
09-05-2003, 11:33 PM
I do find it odd, though, if Palpy is such a racist sexist speciesist? that he is surrounded by alien (some of them female) advisors in the PT.

This goes back to my earlier thread regarding Palpatine and his empire. What I mean is, once a demegogue gets the power to "rule the world" as it were, what then? What do you do with it? Surrounding yourself with the hottest babes in the galaxy seems like a pretty good start though. ;) Hats off to Hugh!

JediTricks
09-08-2003, 12:46 AM
I do find it odd, though, if Palpy is such a racist sexist speciesist? that he is surrounded by alien (some of them female) advisors in the PT. Maybe it's just for cover and he'll turn on them later, but I would like to see at least a glimpse of a young imp dignitary or palpy's preferential treatment of caucasian male humans since they fill the imperial ranks from top to bottom.He's still a politician in the PT, politicians need to appear magnanimous and appeal to the masses and try not to polarize any one group so as to keep their office until they can become emperors where they're no longer worried about public opinion since they can't be voted out.

gtrain29
09-08-2003, 07:59 PM
He's still a politician in the PT, politicians need to appear magnanimous and appeal to the masses and try not to polarize any one group so as to keep their office until they can become emperors where they're no longer worried about public opinion since they can't be voted out.

True. I guess I meant maybe show some behind the scenes stuff with the imperial dignitaries or something.

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
09-14-2003, 11:09 PM
I've often thought about this subject many times. First of all, the issue of race was one negative that dogged ANH, that the many cast of varied characters in the movie had few, if any, African-Americans. Even James Earl Jones, the voice of Vader, went uncredited. Lucas attempted to quell the criticisms by bringing in Billy Dee Williams for the second movie, and I think he quieted most of them down.

Getting back to topic, I think racism was/is pretty prevalent in the Star Wars Universe. With so many species and so many planets, one cannot help to think that racist attitudes exist. Looking back at the trilogy, I can recall subtle instances of racism and discrimination, mainly with the Empire ("Where are you taking this thing?" "Bounty Hunters, we don't need their scum") and also at Mos Eisley with the barring of the droids from the cantina.

It's just a fact of life. Even on our own planet, there is discrimination against our fellow homo sapiens because of the diversity that exists between us. One cannot help to think that the ugly spector of racism, reared it's ugly head in the SW world.

stillakid
09-14-2003, 11:35 PM
Even James Earl Jones, the voice of Vader, went uncredited.

For the record, I believe that JEJ requested that he not be credited onscreen. I can't recall where I read that, but it was some time ago. In any case, I think that George again offered credit for ROTJ, and because it was the last one, James accepted it.

2-1B
09-15-2003, 12:35 AM
I seem to recall that, too, stillakid. I believe JEJ passed on the credit by choice.

As for Billy Dee being brought in as some sort of appeasement, well I don't know if it's true or not but I hate the idea of it. Billy Dee is so incredible in that role and it would be a shame if he got the job that way. He's totally the coolest guy I could think of for that role. :)

JediTricks
09-16-2003, 12:05 AM
The topic of racism was added to TPM with the Gungan/Naboo thing as well as in ANH with the droids being 3rd-class citizens, the ideas are added to the films on purpose, but the messages are translated to speciesism since it fits the bill and doesn't beat the audience down with a Earth-based message. I think both uses in those films work well, they take stands that racism in the SW universe is part of their surroundings but that they do indeed have an affect on both sides of the equation.

As for the "bounty hunters" line, I don't think that's racism, that's just a dislike of the people in that profession - a different stereotype.

I've heard the JEJ thing too, it's on IMDB but I think it came from a magazine interview with him. He got paid very little for the role and felt he earned just that and nothing more because it was barely a job to him, IIRC.

As for Billy Dee being brought in to appease calls of racism, I am pretty sure that's true - Lando was originally written without ethnicity and was originally the clone prince of a planet of clones. I never personally thought Lucas' lack of various human races in ANH was any active racism though, he cast chiefly from British acting pools where there are simply a very large number of caucasian actors.

stillakid
09-16-2003, 10:27 AM
I never personally thought Lucas' lack of various human races in ANH was any active racism though, he cast chiefly from British acting pools where there are simply a very large number of caucasian actors.


The Emperor prefers to hire British Officers as well. They must be inherently evil, what with those extra "e"s (Towne) and "u"s (Favourite) laying around. ;)

kdp100
09-16-2003, 12:35 PM
The Emperor prefers to hire British Officers as well. They must be inherently evil, what with those extra "e"s (Towne) and "u"s (Favourite) laying around. ;)

Extra "E"s? Not since the mid-18th century, methinks - not for the spelling of "town", anyway! ;)
Differences between US & UK spelling are the result of a change on one side of the Atlantic just as often as on the other. UK spellings of words like "favourite" and "colour" are due to French influence, whereas the US version resembles the Latin originals much more closely. There's a very interesting and reader-friendly book called "Mother Tongue" by travel-writer Bill Bryson that deals with this...

Anyway, back on topic - I read somewhere (possibly even on these forums) that Lucas made a conscious effort in the OT to cast all his Imperial officers as plum-voiced British caucasians to make them stand out from the Rebels, most of whom had American accents.
I'm hoping that there'll be some explanation in Ep 3 concerning the apparent racial/sexual/species-related discrimination by the Empire.

(Incidentally, I always thought Michael Sheard was much more scary in his role as disciplinarian schoolteacher Mr Bronson in kids' TV soap "Grange Hill" than he ever was as Admiral Ozzel.)

JediTricks
09-17-2003, 04:11 AM
The Emperor prefers to hire British Officers as well. They must be inherently evil, what with those extra "e"s (Towne) and "u"s (Favourite) laying around. ;)
Stilla, maybe he did it because the British used to have an empire. :D

I dunno KDP, some of the background rebs have British accents while some of the lesser Imp officers have poorly-dubbed American accents. Then again, Lucas was focused enough on little details to do something like what you suggest, he did have the blaster fire colors match the colors of the US forces and North Vietnamese tracer fire colors of the day.

stillakid
09-17-2003, 08:52 AM
Stilla, maybe he did it because the British used to have an empire. :D

Ah, but so did the Romans and Byzantinians and I'm not sure that he used any of them. ;)

Exhaust Port
09-17-2003, 09:04 AM
Stormtroopers in toga's?

stillakid
09-17-2003, 09:07 AM
Stormtroopers in toga's?

Have you seen the ARC Troopers? They have a skirt on.... (hee hee hee :kiss: )

kdp100
09-17-2003, 07:45 PM
Have you seen the ARC Troopers? They have a skirt on.... (hee hee hee :kiss: )

Yes, the ARCs do look very much like Roman legionaries (as did the Cylons in Battlestar Galactica).

The British Empire was, originally, much more like the Trade Federation - a group of commercial organisations banded together loosely for mutual financial gain and paying nominal lip-service to a sovereign government.
Around 1700, the British East India Company (a PRIVATE corporation) had a much more powerful fleet in the Indian Ocean than the Royal Navy could ever hope to muster at that time.

I think that the SW Republican Senate is based on the US system of govt, which in turn was based on a Classical Roman ideal - although I don't believe there was ever such a concept of a Roman senator "representing" a particular region...

Also, Palpatine's apparent reluctance to lay down his emergency powers in the PT echoes the action of the first Roman "Emperor" Augustus, who (most would agree) behaved far more benevolently than our friend in black zeyd-cloth ever did.

JediTricks
09-18-2003, 12:33 AM
Ah, but so did the Romans and Byzantinians and I'm not sure that he used any of them. ;)
Not a lot of Byzantine casting pools in the mid 1970s. ;)

JON9000
09-23-2003, 02:21 PM
Also, Palpatine's apparent reluctance to lay down his emergency powers in the PT echoes the action of the first Roman "Emperor" Augustus, who (most would agree) behaved far more benevolently than our friend in black zeyd-cloth ever did.

Of course, Palpatine's personal peccadilloes are nowhere near as interesting as those of Tiberius, Caligula, Carcalla, or Commodus. Or maybe they all happen off camera. :eek:

I have often thought that the EU could be a lot better if it just cribbed more from Roman History. I mean, let's face it, if Palps went down, tons of players would be rushing in to fill the gap. no need for a dorky clone emperor.

All EU fans can stone me in the town square now.

Turambar
09-23-2003, 08:48 PM
Of course, Palpatine's personal peccadilloes are nowhere near as interesting as those of Tiberius, Caligula, Carcalla, or Commodus. Or maybe they all happen off camera. :eek:

I have often thought that the EU could be a lot better if it just cribbed more from Roman History. I mean, let's face it, if Palps went down, tons of players would be rushing in to fill the gap. no need for a dorky clone emperor.

All EU fans can stone me in the town square now.

Palpatine more like Caligula?!! LOL!
That would certainly destroy the PG rating.
does Palpy have a sister. . .

stillakid
09-24-2003, 12:30 PM
I mean, let's face it, if Palps went down, tons of players would be rushing in to fill the gap. no need for a dorky clone emperor.


Or maybe George could crib from the California re-election? :crazed:

Turambar
09-25-2003, 04:09 AM
Or maybe George could crib from the California re-election? :crazed:

email that to the ranch, stilla. his ego's big enough to try it, now. LOL