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Tycho
09-05-2003, 11:57 AM
Just got this tidbit from TFN: Palpatine's captured by the Separatists.

Let me guess: In a heroic effort, he escapes with Anakin's help and has stolen the plans to the Confederacy's secret weapon: the Death Star. :rolleyes:

Yielding to the logic of it all, Palpatine reasons that if the Separatists are going to have a Death Star, the Republic must have one also! :rolleyes:

An arms race is on and the Rebpulic builds one someplace near Ralltir and completes it before the Confederacy can finish theirs - somewhere around Endor :rolleyes:

Neither will be completed in Episode 3, but it will become feasible that the new and benevolent Emperor will promise his good citizens that no such threat of Rebels with an ultimate weapon exists anymore. That'll be true, because while these will be secret weapons not largely known of, Palpatine will actually gain control of both Death Stars.

Anyway, I could be way off, but it seems to explain how the one at Endor got finished so quickly, four years after the one at Yavin was destroyed.

Meanwhile, I'm sure it tortured Palpatine to be Dooku's prisoner :rolleyes:

Man are they sneaky little Siths!

The Overlord Returns
09-05-2003, 12:19 PM
I wonder if this means the clone wars cartoon will end with Palpatine beeing taken...as it seems ep 3 will begin with this event having already taken place.

Jedi Clint
09-05-2003, 12:52 PM
Could it be that Anakin and Obi Wan both set out to rescue Palpatine, but along the way Kenobi figures out the mystery of the Sith (Anakin is already secretly his apprentice) and this leads to the duel? If this is in the opening crawl, it should effect the rest of the film.

icatch9
09-05-2003, 01:49 PM
Remeber that Obi Wan probally won't see the Death Star, as he seems to be some what surprised by it in ANH. Clearly he knows something about it. As he's the first one to point out "That's no moon, that's a space station".

To me, this seems as though he knew something may exist, but he doesn't say "I knew it, that's the Death Star and we are in deep ***t".

I doubt the creation of two at once was going on. The faster formation of the second Death Star can be explained in so many other ways. Better techknowlegey, more resources, less hassel by "the man". Who knows why buy reasons can be explained logicaly.

2-1B
09-05-2003, 01:57 PM
I think I read some spoilers that we won't see the Death Star.

Personally I think the AOTC cameo is all we'll see. :)

Tycho
09-05-2003, 02:33 PM
Right. We won't see the actual Death Star, but the plans for it could get the Republic started on "thinking about building one" even before it is turned into an Empire.

An arms race would seem to make sense: to justify raising taxes in order to build one. The Senate would let that slide if the threat of an ultimate weapon were involved.

Remember, a government's power lies in its ability to collect taxes and wage war.

Palpatine benefits as Emperor, because he controls all the galaxy's money.

The Trade Federation was protesting taxes by blockading Naboo, who's "Senator Palpatine" was on the fence about raising taxes to help the Republic provide money for intergalactic relief efforts (Naboo is heavily involved in social services, as Padme demonstrates by her past in the Refugee Relief Movement).

The Separatists real issue is not corruption in the Republic, but the big businesses like the banking clan, Commerce Guild, Techno Union, etc. not wanting restrictions on environmental concerns, slave labor, child labor, taxes, defenses for their cargo shipments, etc.

The more the public hates taxes, the more they'll join the Separatists.

but not if they fear their government they live under (the Republic, and later the Empire) needs the money for defense (as in to compete in an arms race).

Remember, Palpatine retains emergency war powers as long as there is a crisis. *

This would make sense and explain the 2 Death Stars.

This is like saying Roosevelt, Truman, Stalin, and Adolf Hitler were all secretly friends, and all were invested in Enron, and they all decided to have a war and an arms race to get more tax dollars (or defecit spending) out of a frightened public who thought we needed more nuclear weapons "to provide a deterrant" to stop the other nationalities from exploiting our weaknesses. Who knows? Maybe that really did happen and the world would not be so divisive if not for the exploitations of the populations by their own most powerful and trusted individuals.



*The Sith have been using pirates to riad the Trade Federation in secret, and cause them to want to have that droid army. They've instigated little wars so that refugees do go on the run, and then Palpatine suggests that Naboo "rescue them." :rolleyes:

For all these years, the Sith in hiding have been building up to this, building their armies to take over. The Separatists and the Republic are one huge pile of military firepower that are actually all under the control of Palpatine anyway. Only he'll make the public suspect the Jedi because of Dooku and the Clones.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-05-2003, 04:37 PM
I really hope that nothing Tycho said comes true, except for Palpatine being captured.
Dooku gave the plans for the Death Star to his master, Darth Sidious. Now, assuming that he's not a clone, Darth Sidious is Chancellor Palpatine, and so Palpatine already knows about the Death Star.
Maybe, Palpatine stages his own capture so Jedi can be lured and killed. Just a thought.

jawaboy
09-05-2003, 04:48 PM
Like they say in Contact, "Why build one when you can build two for twice the price!" :happy:

plo koon 200
09-05-2003, 06:30 PM
Where did you get the idea that this involves the Death Star Tycho. What does the opening scroll with Palpatine being captured by the Separtists have to do with the Death Star? This could mean a multitude of things. Remember that Palpatine likes to set things up. I think this is all being as an event by Palpatine to make Palpy look all the more heroic. For the good guys to really think Palpatine stands for the Republic. This also makes the Separtists look really bad. With the threat gone Palpatine can convince the people that if ever another event as this should ever happen that their should be measures in place. Therefore I would expect this to be a major steeping stone for Palpatine becoming Emperor.

Jedi Clint
09-05-2003, 07:37 PM
He'd use a kidnapping to shut himself away from the public (change his headquarters).


Could it be that Anakin and Obi Wan both set out to rescue Palpatine, but along the way Kenobi figures out the mystery of the Sith (Anakin is already secretly his apprentice) and this leads to the duel? If this is in the opening crawl, it should effect the rest of the film.


I was thinking further on this, and if they don't "rescue" Palpatine until around the time of the duel (which will probably happen near the end of the film), and he is kidnapped before the film opens, then when would all the scenes they filmed with him (in his office on Coruscant and in a "public place" on Coruscant) take place? This thread (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21043) contains a similar spoiler (the kidnapping). :eek:

gtrain29
09-05-2003, 08:31 PM
The opening scroll of ROTJ goes something like. . .
the galactic empire has secretly begun contruction on a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded death star. . .

Not: the empire has picked up the pace of construction on a deathstar that was begun 25 years ago. . .

So I doubt the 2 deathstar thing could be possible. Using the separatist kidnapping to bulk up military budgeting is a good theory, though, but there are many conclusions that can be jumped to from the tidbit of info given that have nothing to do with a deathstar.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
09-05-2003, 08:45 PM
Tycho- Why all the :rolleyes: faces? I kinda like that idea of Palpy gettin' taken and Ani and Obi have to face him. As stated by somebody else, this could be a way that obi finds out about the Sith and Anakin succombs further into the dark side. We'll see how this works though! :D

(waits for stilla to come by and bash any prequel info) hehehehehehehe :crazed:

Jargo
09-05-2003, 08:53 PM
Who says they'd have built the death star at all. They'd have to test the superlaser technology first so they'd simply install it on a large ship or a smaller space station and make it a smaller laser. Still as deadly but in a more focused way. If the small space station also happened to be round like the trade fed core ships then Obi-Wan would definately recognise the shape of the space station in ANH. Which is patently what the look on his face suggests. He's seen a large round space station before. he knows how terrifying they are and he also knows where to find the tractor beam controls. How would an old man know that if he wasn't familiar with the technology and if he hadn't seen it before?

No death star maybe but something very similar I bet. More like the prison fortress in space as envisioned in the first treatment for the saga. As for the tidbit from TFN, keep shooting it up over there boys, the medication aint working properly yet.

derek
09-05-2003, 09:22 PM
this news of palpatine being captured lends credibility to the report brandon posted, i think.

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21043

DarthChuckMc
09-05-2003, 09:28 PM
Maybe TF.N just read the same news on AICN that Brandon did, and are taking it as reliable info.

The 'Xir
09-06-2003, 10:52 AM
Now Now, don't everyone get down on Tycho, those are some cool and well thought out Ideas, and I think you've always had a pretty good grasp on the SW Universe, but I think you just let your imagination run a little too wild!
Personally, I think the whole Palpatine getting captured Idea is pretty cool! Lot's of possibilities!!! But, it doesn't make much sense to steal the DS plans when Dooku has given Sidious(Palps) the plans already! Even if it happens, I'm never going to buy into the whole clone thing with Sid and Palpy being two different people! F That!
But I can't decide on what I'd like better Palps being captured by the Separatists, and playing out as described above or how about this; The Jedi finding out about Palpatines treachery and confronting him to arrest him! Kinda along the line of what Jabba John was talking about! Now that there are thousands of clone troopers running around Palps has established no need for the Jedi's services in the eyes of the public! Once the Jedi learn of him being a Sith and desire to become Emperor, Palps knows they'll come after him and he'll be lying in wait, probably alone to Ambush them. Once the Jedi enter his office or whatever location he may be in a flood of clone troopers will race in to cut them down! Hell he'll probably just reveal his plans to the Jedi but not Anakin or the public, just like in ROTJ! "It was I, who allowed the alliance to know the location of the shield generator, an entire legion of my best troops awaits them!". Well in EpIII, instead of ground troops and starfighters being ambushed, it will be the Jedi! This would make sense because Palpatine will be victorious in ambushing and defeating the Jedi, and the reason why he tries it again in ROTJ! "Your overconfidence is your weakness"!
Now If Palpatine reveals himself to the Jedi but not Anakin, this allows for Anakin to defend Palpatine against the Jedi and obviously against Obi-wan! This would be so cool, imagine everything just building up to this HUGE climax, where you have the Jedi storming in to arrest or kill Palpatine while elsewhere Obi-wan is desperately trying to convince Anakin of Palpatines betrayl, shouting at him, "Anakin, he's lying to you!". Anakins insurrmountable frustration building trying to make sense of everything, in which direction he should go, what side he should choose, what path he will take... :evil:
hehehe heee Ahh isn't this great!, I just love these movies! :cool:

The 'Xir
09-06-2003, 11:19 AM
Actually rethinking this a bit and knowing how much George just loves to repeat himself, it will probably play out just like ROTJ! But, unlike what I said above, Dooku and the separtist forces will probably be the ones waiting to ambush the Jedi, this would allow Dooku and Mace to square off in Maces' big death scene! It might even get to the point where we have Dooku, Mace, Ben, Ani and Sid/Palps all in the same vicinity! Dooku kills mace, Ben kills Dooku, and Then we could have another triangle of tension between Ani, Obiwan and Palpatine, just like Luke Vader and Palps in ROTJ! :happy:

Jaff
09-07-2003, 01:08 AM
I find the Palpatine being captured by Seperatists can only be a rumor, because Palpatine is using his conections to feed the seperatists. He links the techno union army, trade federation, geonosians, the banking clan, and a bunch of others and plops them together to unify with his current servant Dooku. They are all working for him, whether they know it or not. It would not profit them to capture him unless they do not realize that he is Darth Sideous.

That seems to be the only possibility. What do you guys think?

The 'Xir
09-07-2003, 11:25 PM
Well no offense Jaff, but it is obvious that all those factions are working for Palpatine, that's my point in my posts above! Everything is a setup!
Remember people when you look at possible plot points, remember to treat Palpatine and Sidious as two different entities or agents, although we all know they are one in the same! Palps/Sidious can manipulate things to where in his Palpatine facade he is an innocent representative of the Republic, but is setting up his own capture/hostage situation dealing with Dooku and all the seperatists as Sidious.
So it makes total sense if Palpatine is setting it up to look like he has been captured by the Separtists, just to lure the Jedi in to an ambush so he can destroy them and secure his status as Emperor!
I will give you props though Jaff in that you made me think of a plot point I hadn't pondered yet, in that Maybe Dooku and the Seperatisits don't know that Sidious is Palpatine! This could open up a whole other can of worms and that Maybe Dooku is telling Obi-wan the truth in the prison cell, to an extant! Maybe Dooku( a rogue Jedi banned from the Jedi order) is pro Republic but not pro Jedi and why he has no problem fighting and attempting to kill Ben and Ani! Maybe he thinks he is working for Palpatine to aid the Republic, has discovered the secret of the Sith on his own(why he tries to recruit Obi-wan(to join him)) and has aligned himself with Sidious in order to setup or Ambush Sidious. Remember, The Federation, Banking clan and techno unions don't exist in the OT that we know of atleast, and maybe Palpatine is trying to not only setup the Jedi, but to setup Dooku and the Seperatist as well! We all know Palpatine's distaste for Alien species, which the Federation, Bankng clan, and Techno union armies are all comprised of! Maybe Palpatine justs sets everyone up for complete anhililation, destroying the Seperatists, The Jedi, The Republic and anybnody else who stands in his way! Then uses what is left of the clone army while building a military academy(off screen) to build up his Imperial forces as we know them to be by the time ANH comes around! God Damn, he is a Genius..that is if George decides to take that route, which if he doesn't would mean that well... I'm kinda of a genius for thinking of it! :D :crazed: I'm j/k!!! Come on though!, please let me write one screen play.. just one, I can't do any worse!!! Oh that's right I'm too late, Damn!! :(

Imperial Monarche
09-07-2003, 11:37 PM
Everyone seems to think that Obi-Wan needs to have seen something similiar to the Death Star to know that its a space station in ANH...why? Has everyone forgot that he is a powerful Jedi and Jedi are very knowledgible about things, plus he could have read the TIE Fighter pilots mind they were following.

But, I think in one of the interviews with Pablo, he said that there maybe some scenes of a Death Star, but he didnt confirm if the Death Star itself would be in it. However, he did say that the Death Star plans were not central to the story and would not be focused on, so more than likely everyone's theories bout Palpatine stealing the Death Star plans (which ironically happens to him between Ep. III and IV and transmitted to Leia) is prolly just wishful thinking. The theory of the two Death Stars being built in an arms race secretly ran by the same person is pretty cool though.

I wouldn't necessarily go on what people on the crew (like Pablo and McCallum) say when dispelling a rumor because the best way to get a rumor to go away is to say it's false. Alot of ppl my have hit the nail right on the head about certain things but why would they get on the chats and say, "Yeah, you're right. You figured it out. The secrets out." Ya see what i'm saying.

Imperial Monarche
09-07-2003, 11:47 PM
Xir, doesn't Dooku get killed in the like the first 10 min of the movie? Don't know, prolly just what I said earlier, they say things to make ppl think of other ideas and differ from the truth. But ya know Chris Lee wasn't on the set for more than like two or three days, so I don't quite think he'll be in it much.

The 'Xir
09-10-2003, 11:49 PM
IM- It's very well possible, Like I said I don't subscribe to the Hyperspace so I have no Idea what's been revealed and what hasn't, and I'd rather keep it that way, but unless they've totally givien it away that Dooku dies in the first howmany ever minutes, then you know anything is possible! I'm just rambling like the rest of us, but It all amounts to the same thing, Dooku must die Mace we know is going to die, and the confrontation between Ani and Ben will happen. My main point was that I can totally see EpIII resembling RotJ where instead of having Luke and Vader squaring off in front of Palpatine, we will see Anakin and Obi-wan squaring off in front of Palpatine. Here's something else: What if we have the confrontation between Ben and Ani, and Anakin is hiding whereever, kinda like Luke was in ROTJ(like Father, Like Son) and Ben is mirroring Vaders part in ROTJ? What if Ben is trying to convince Anakin of all of Palpatines betrayls talking to him telling him of all his lies and Anakin is shouting defenses back at Ben until it builds up to where Ben Tells Anakin of Padme's Pregnancy as a last desperate hope to save him from going fully over to the dark side. Then Anakin losses it because Ben won't tell Ani where she is and they go at it lightsabers blazin'!!!
Think about it, Ben doesn't have to tell him about both kids just Luke! It can work because in ESB it's almost like Vader and the Emperor both know of Luke's existence, because the "disturbance" they feel is Luke being awaken to the Force, through Yoda's training! What I mean is that they've always have known of his existence, but felt as long as his powers weren't developed and had no knowledge of the Force then he would not be a threat to their darkside plans, so maybe they also have been keeping an eye on Luke, and once he was awaken to the force then they knew it was time to do something about it!
Palpatine: There is a great disturbance in the Force!
Vader: I have felt it my master.
Palps: The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.
Vader: if he could be turned, he would make a powerful alley.
Palps: Yes! Yeeas. Can it be done?
Vader: He will join us or die... master.
Also, Lucas can still get away with it, because although there is lines in ANH like, "the force is strong with this one", techniquely Vader doesn't know who is in the x-wing fighter, just that they are strong in the force. Now, you'd think he'd be able to feel his son's presence, but it could be assummed that maybe the Spirit of Ben was protecting Luke, seeing as how he was pretty much with Luke during the whole battle, and maybe that's what Vader was sensing! "the Force will be with you... Always."