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Anakin2121
09-10-2003, 08:17 PM
I just watched it! Wow, it was incredible!
Normally Tycho has the honor of "initiating" these, but...
Just, wow! The effects work was incredible! The effects team for the show is really learning their trade. The CG is getting better and better!
There's also a new military squad that serves on board the Enterprise, almost like a sort of "Hazard Team" as seen in the outstanding "Elite Force" videogame series.
We really got to see those guys kicking butt, though, and I hope to see more of them this season.
All I have to say is that this was a great way to start it off. :)

Exhaust Port
09-10-2003, 08:52 PM
I was really impressed by the collection of aliens at the end (they might have been at the beginning too but I came in late). First, they didn't all speak English and had subtitles which was an interesting change. I'm also pretty excited by the fact that they used 2 completely CGI alien species. Was it just me or did that scene remind you a lot of a scene in AOTC? I expected them to show a hologram of the Death Star as they talked about their "new weapon."

It wasn't necessarily the best episode but I'm pretty intrigued by the changes made and I'm looking forward to the rest of the season.

Did they change the opening song at all?

Anakin2121
09-10-2003, 09:15 PM
I was really impressed by the collection of aliens at the end (they might have been at the beginning too but I came in late). First, they didn't all speak English and had subtitles which was an interesting change. I'm also pretty excited by the fact that they used 2 completely CGI alien species. Was it just me or did that scene remind you a lot of a scene in AOTC? I expected them to show a hologram of the Death Star as they talked about their "new weapon."

It wasn't necessarily the best episode but I'm pretty intrigued by the changes made and I'm looking forward to the rest of the season.

Did they change the opening song at all?


I too was reminded of the scene from AOTC where Obi-Wan spies on the Separatists! Just like in AOTC, there's a variety of aliens at a round conference table, some speaking with subtitles. Even the lighting was the same.
That bug guy was cool!
And the words for the song were the same. The background music seemed slightly changed, though, but maybe that's just me. :P

Exhaust Port
09-11-2003, 07:44 AM
I too liked the bug alien.

scruffziller
09-11-2003, 09:33 AM
Boy I am glad u guys saw it so it could give me a heads up to set up my Replay TV.:) I didn't realize the season was starting so soon.

vulcantouch
09-11-2003, 09:56 AM
bug, shmug- the real standouts for me were stephen (romulan senator vreenak from ds9 "pale moonlight" ep) mchattie's asthmatic foreman and the nine-fingered xindi! too bad we won't see those characters again, Fantastic perfs by both actors :cool: and yay for tpol's new hair :kiss:
jt's prolly happy with daniel dae kim's casting as one of the commandos, cuz he always wanted that voy "blink of an eye" guest star to become a regular on That show ;)
on xindi/geonosian war room note, i also liked the dream sequence the First time i saw it, in T2 Judgment Day ;) and next week we get to see a retread of janeway's intimidation of captain ransom's officer in "equinox 2" ;)
so now enterprise's warp burst is red white & blue? oh Please :rolleyes: too bad for anyone who expected the delphic expanse was gonna be one big moody nebular soup, cuz now we're back in plain-ol' black space again. and quelle bummer about rumors of that dopey theme song's demise being false :p
vt

Anakin2121
09-11-2003, 10:53 AM
T'Pol's new outfit and haircut was cool, as were those new commando guys!
And people fail to realize something about this episode...




















SPOILER



This is the first time in Trek that we actually see someone shot in the head.

JEDIpartner
09-11-2003, 12:47 PM
I just hope this season is better than this aimless past season... *sigh*

So far, so good...!

Anakin2121
09-11-2003, 04:32 PM
I just hope this season is better than this aimless past season... *sigh*

So far, so good...!

Agreed. :)

LTBasker
09-11-2003, 08:52 PM
This is the first time in Trek that we actually see someone shot in the head.

Actually no it isn't. In TNG there was an episode creatures had taken over Starfleet Admirals and one officer had the head creature in it. To destroy the head creature, they concentrated phaser fire on it's head till it exploded. Very gruesome, and very cool.

The sniper scene wasn't really exciting, if you've played any games from Half-Life to Jedi Outcast to Unreal, you've seen something like many times.

I thought it was a pretty terrible episode, only worsened Enterprise where it had potential. Instead of putting in a dramatic twist to the series, they instead have reverted back to the classic sex & action = easy ratings gag.

Was not impressed with the Xindi at all, poorly thought out. They could be a little more creative than ANOTHER humanoid species. The bug's could've been done very well, but with the human-esque and the furry humanoid aliens being able to talk in english, then the bug and aquatic ones needing subtitles. It was too much like the War Room scenes in Episode II. True, in Episode II they weren't original in themselves, but they could've found something BETTER to do. It seems very unlikely that 2 out of 4 species of one planet wouldn't be able to be understood by the magical universal translator during the scene.

So I'm still not impressed with Enterprise and think they handled potential for a well thought out series terribly. I'm so glad I decided not to tape it anymore, even if just for "just in case" situations.

Anakin2121
09-11-2003, 09:00 PM
Actually no it isn't. In TNG there was an episode creatures had taken over Starfleet Admirals and one officer had the head creature in it. To destroy the head creature, they concentrated phaser fire on it's head till it exploded. Very gruesome, and very cool.

The sniper scene wasn't really exciting, if you've played any games from Half-Life to Jedi Outcast to Unreal, you've seen something like many times.



I'd say the head-exploding scene didn't count since the head BLEW UP and the Admiral was not entirely human. :)
I guess what I meant to say was I play as many if not more first-person shooters than the next man, and the sniper scene was still cool, because this was, IIRC, the first time in a straight-out FIREFIGHT in Trek where someone was shot in the head. Normally they're always shot in the middle of the chest and fall over. :p

Tycho
09-12-2003, 02:38 AM
I loved this episode.

I keep thinking about T'Pol naked. These are great thoughts!

The space marines are too cool and it reminded me of Aliens. That's a plus in my book.

There was another cool alien species besides the insect ones that reminded me of Battlestar Galactica. This was the banshee screaming aliens in the tank that sort of floated around in there! Those were cool and they didn't even have legs!

The aliens that aren't 2-arms-2-legs are great. It makes it all more like real space exploration where we don't just find stuff distantly related to us, like Cardassians.

The chic marine did some bad-*** martial arts moves and she really knocked the crap out of that one guy - another plus!

Plot-wise, or lacking therein, I loved the episode because I was entertained without having to watch Star Wars and Aliens and Battlestar Galactica all over again. It might be like seeing those shows, but the story was slightly different and explored other possibilities.

As to new plot choices and "what could they do differenty?" Choices for an action show are limited. Action episode, rather. On Voyager, Captain Proton and Tom Paris' space shuttle drag-race and his insurrection on that underwater planet allowed for some new plot variance. So did Hirogen bounty hunting. Still, this was just a season opener that was made to suggest they were going to up the effects, the aliens, the action, and this was an easy plot to showcase it in - as well as showcase our regular actors pulling it off. That way we know we're not missing anything by not having Bruce Willis not cast on the show.
Scott Bakula can pull it off just as well.

T'Pol getting topless was great though, wasn't it?

JediTricks
09-12-2003, 03:14 AM
First off, it seems like the weird Xindi species and this whole "alone in weird space saving Earth" overtone feels more like Farscape than Trek. I really hated that bug-head Xindi, didn't look like they tried to evolve 'em at all, just a "bug standing up", very CG looking to me. Not the only "very CG looking" element of this ep though, the containers in the cargo bay flying around was screaming CGI.

Secondly, I hated the main plot, how many times have we done this one already in Trek? Felt an awful lot like a part of Ent's pilot, "Broken Bow", too so that just added to the feeling of recycling. And the B-plot really got tiresome, they've all but ruined my favorite character (Trip) with this whole "enraged as hell" thing, look at how Kirk dealt with his brother's death, should have gone more that way if they wanted "something different". I would have liked the villain to be slightly more layered, he was really the only character I found interesting in the slightest until he went totally down to the bare bones villain routine. And I totally agree with VT about the expanse looking like absolutely nothing interesting. This could have been Trek's big chance to get out of the old and into something a little more visually stimulating for a while, something like the look of the Mutara Nebula from ST2, but instead just "oh, something odd happened on the cargo deck". This ep felt so much like Voyager and TNG that I wanted to break free of the straightjacket it felt like I was wearing.

Third, the redress of the show sucks IMO. The new music on the themesong makes the singing speed up slightly, the music itself is trying to sound a little more folksy/country and just comes off shallow to me. The original tune may not have been my top choice, but it envoked feelings with the right way of playing the tune, now it's been retooled corporate-style to feel empty and meaningnless. I also didn't like the outfits of the military assault force, the space-camo look just didn't come off photogenic I think, and the assault force themselves added nothing to my experience, though they could surprise me in the future. It was a little obvious that Daniel Dae Kim was added to be Hoshi's new love interest too (and sorry VT, didn't care one way or the other about bland ol' DDK there ;)). And the new room, that was a dud and a half, I think it's supposed to be like DS9's ops. Speaking of DS9, T'pol's new red outfit is awfully similar to Kira's on that show.

Finally, the pitiful attempt to further sexualize T'pol was really, really unstomachable here, between the blue catsuit and the "touch here" bit and the vulcan PJs which are all of a sudden ill-fitting and silk and especially the actual removal of her top, which showed the side of her breast possibly more than the FCC will allow (nipple = no-no on broadcast TV). BTW, note to the producers: Jolene Blalock's ugly implants (no, I don't mean Borg implants) on her skinny body are not anywhere near as appealing as you're hoping; if you want to capture original Trek's sense of sexuality, you need to go back to male heroes having a few deep - and many not-so-deep - quicky relationships at nearly every port of call, and exotic costumes that looked like they COULD fall off at any minute.

Ultimately, thanks so much to Rick Berman and Brannon Braga for truly turning this show into disappointing, one-note flotsam. :( :cry: :frus:

Anakin2121
09-12-2003, 09:34 AM
I loved this episode.

I keep thinking about T'Pol naked. These are great thoughts!

The space marines are too cool and it reminded me of Aliens. That's a plus in my book.

There was another cool alien species besides the insect ones that reminded me of Battlestar Galactica. This was the banshee screaming aliens in the tank that sort of floated around in there! Those were cool and they didn't even have legs!

The aliens that aren't 2-arms-2-legs are great. It makes it all more like real space exploration where we don't just find stuff distantly related to us, like Cardassians.


Well said, Tycho. I agree completely.
And I also loved that there was a VARIETY of of aliens that actually looked alien! I always thought one of the weak points of Trek was that many of the "aliens" looked just like humans but with a few bumps on their foreheads. :rolleyes: :)

And JT, I thought the containers in the cargo bay were very well-done. The bugman screamed CGI, yes, but I thought the containers looked very real. More convincing than anything in the Star Wars prequels...aside from the battle droids in Episode I and the clonetroopers in Episode II, both of which I only recently learned were all CG. :D

Tycho
09-12-2003, 03:42 PM
That's funny. I thought the BattleDroids were made by Hasbro.

The aliens that had to float in the liquid tank were also seriously cool. I totally liked that idea of using characters that needed special assistance to exist in the same atmosphere as the regular 2-arm/2-leg aliens.

I myself really appreciated all of T'Pol's scenes! :kiss:

I'd let Trek go in this direction: comic book "Laura Croft" ladies, space marines and combat scenes, aliens that can't be in humanoid atmospheres.

I think almost everything's been done before, so let Trek build up a new audience with the "Schwarzeneggar-Bruce Willis type" fans.

PLUS: It will attract a new audience.

PLUS: It will be different from previous Treks.

MINUS: It will dumb down the show for a cretan audience.

MINUS: It won't be exactly like the way Gene Roddernberry made the shows TOS and TNG.

PLUS: It could pick up an audeince and ratings from the cretans, then take steps to move back toward traditional Trek with deep pyschological and political stories.

PLUS: It can push the envelope on what will pass TV ratings for sexuality, as Star Trek has always been a leader of programming revolution. We are still a long way from Europe's freedom to broadcast light pornography, so this could be progress.

PLUS: It will interest more kids who will want Space Marine action figures and build up interest in ArtAsylum's stuff the more violent the show can get.

PLUS: It might half-way compete with Smallville which Star Trek will now be up against. (When I can't be home, I'll be taping Smallville first I think, and have to wait for Sundays to catch up on Trek.)

Anyway...comments?

LTBasker
09-12-2003, 05:49 PM
Finally, the pitiful attempt to further sexualize T'pol was really, really unstomachable here, between the blue catsuit and the "touch here" bit and the vulcan PJs which are all of a sudden ill-fitting and silk and especially the actual removal of her top

Thank YOU

It's one thing if it was something like maybe 7 of 9 exploring her horny-guy's-vision-of-a-teen-girl setting, but a Vulcan?..


Ultimately, thanks so much to Rick Berman and Brannon Braga for truly turning this show into disappointing, one-note flotsam. :( :cry: :frus:

Agreed.


I'd say the head-exploding scene didn't count since the head BLEW UP and the Admiral was not entirely human. :)

Yeah, the head blew up after the phasers were concentrated on him for a couple seconds. He was technically fully human though, he just had a really really big parasite in him.


MINUS: It won't be exactly like the way Gene Roddernberry made the shows TOS and TNG.

That's not a minus, that's a tragedy. Letting Star Trek turn into just another run of the mill sci-fi show, that's ludicrous! And for what? Because Berman and Braga stole the franchise. Hey how about we all make some prank calls to Majel in respect for Gene?

I think it's safe to say that Enterprise never crawled out of one hole to fall into another- they just dug right into the abyss and kept on shovelin it. ;)

Tycho
09-12-2003, 09:13 PM
I want the series to be different from each other. DS9 was the best.

TOS commented on 1960's political society in dealing with things like:

What if the Nazi's had won?

Enterprise should do "What if communism had won the Cold War?" We see that with the Borg already. Aren't they the ultimate command economy?

How about what if Al Gore had won?

Or is the War on Terrorism wrong? Would another time travel story be good?

How about one where Archer has to save Saddam Hussein? TOS would have done something like that.

Trek also explored sexuality. To keep up with modern times, we must see how in an alternate timeline the crew would deal with Archer getting a sex change. This would be simlilar to "Turnabout Intruder." But it would explore modern geneder-change surgery.

How about war protests? We could have people picketing Starfleet Headquarters accusing SF of waging war with the Xindi only to secure mineral rights in their asteroid field.

There could be a recall election and aliens could be protesting registrering with immigration when they visit earth or being forced to speak earth-languages while on-planet.

Let's see...what other social commentary could make great episodes? We could learn that the crew is asked to do a popular talk show and we discover that Trip is so obsessed with his sister because he had an incestuous relationship with her years ago, and now Jerry Springer, released from Cryogenic Deep Freeze, wants to know how people in Appalachia feel about this.

Next episode: Wal-Mart wants to expand its first store on Vulcan, but the Vulcans are insulted by the happy-face symbol because Vulcans don't get happy and think it is logical to protect their own businesses. SF and the High Command square off on the NAFTA Treaty (Non-Alien Franchise Tax Assesment) while meanwhile, SF's C.inC. is accused of having an affair with his Vulcan intern and doing something obscene with her and his cigar.

Of course, TOS and TNG had their 'what qualifies as sentient life?' episodes, and in an exciting update of this, Archer trains his dog to command the ship for a day.

What other modern society commentary could Trek be doing?

I think Enterprise will continue to do just fine. One thing's for sure: unless I see some better ideas, they don't need our help!

LTBasker
09-13-2003, 01:23 AM
Theres been several better ideas out there, I'm not tootin my own horn here either. On a Star Trek message board I am on called Subspace Comms Network several of the people there have given some very nice ideas on what Enterprise could be like. Trust me, they need all the help they could get if Berman and Braga want Enterprise to survive.

See theres one major problem with the stories you're depicting.. alot of them just aren't true. I know alot of the stuff in TOS isn't true, but that's by accident. Gene thought that up so things could have a back story, he didn't know we'd be able to not go into WW3 in the 90's. Star Trek was mostly to sticking to life facts until Berman and Braga became into full control on Voyager. Now they just make anything up as they go along.

Yeah it's sci-fi, yeah it's entertainment, I know all this stuff. But just making things up as they go along is not Star Trek. Star Trek is supposed to unique, not just a run of the mill sci-fi franchise. Gene made Star Trek as a possible future for humanity, some sort of hope for this miserable species. All Berman and Braga see are the dollar signs as they do every exploit they can with a franchise they didn't even create. Now they act like they have created it by recreating everything they possibly can. All the while saying they respect what Star Trek is.

The only thing they look at when they see Star Trek is the nearest female chest, it's more like everything is based around how much they can exploit the fact theres a female on board. I'm not saying they're doing it against their will or any of that stuff, I'm saying I'm tired of these half-baked story lines just to show off every little flashy new toy. I'm tired of these scripts that call for the actors to be dramaqueens when they're just having a basic talk. I'm tired of this.

Now they have the potential to do a very great series, but all they do is they look at the basic sex-action-special effects guidelines and build the story around that. That is all it is anymore. Theres no real heart in this franchise left, it's all just a shell. A hollow shell, no heart whatsoever. There was once a heart when this franchise had a meaning besides just ratings.

Why do I still watch Enterprise? Because even though I'm disgusted with it, I'm not losing hope that someday, someone will step in and make a good Star Trek episode that will be a Star Trek episode. I hope there can be some good that comes out of Enterprise, not from a bunch of glorified too-much-budget action sequences, not from sexual tease, and not from one liner quip response. I mean a good episode from the heart of the actors, from the heart of the crew, and from the heart of the meaning of Star Trek.

I have said all that I can from this now, this is what Star Trek means to me, and I'll be damned if I let them trash Gene's creation to the point of just an hour of sex and action exploits. Those get old- REAL Star Trek doesn't.

vulcantouch
09-13-2003, 11:29 AM
i suppose this unprecedented injection of blatant "now it's payback time" gung-ho-ism into trek could work if handled with a certain daring and finesse, and not mere heavy-handed bruce willis republican smirkiness :p with Ent premiering shortly after 9-11, bakula's often struck me as the dubya of trek, seeing as how both ladle their aw-shucks folksiness on a little unconvincingly thick at times. but as the second season progressed bak branched out of that some, and now it looks like he'll be sharing the Dubya Resonance with trip, since the xindi tried to kill trip's daddy, i mean sister ;)

tych: "How about one where Archer has to save Saddam Hussein?"
-hmm, if archer is dubya, is kirk saddam? "klingmerican (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=243481&postcount=30) bastards you killed my Sons!" :crazed:

"The chic marine"
-there was a chick marine? either i didn't look closely enough or, like hudson's quip to vasquez in Aliens, i mistook her for a dooode ;)

jt: "attempt to further sexualize T'pol was really, really unstomachable"
-actually it had me laughin my azz off, cuz i couldn't decide if it was unbelievably obvious & desperate pandering or the show's winking acknowledgement of the economic climate in which they compete. so i salute them for making me wonder- and for the laugh :D

"Kim was added to be Hoshi's new love"
-the obviousness of that, if it turns out to be the case, would similarly make me laugh :D maybe it's meant to be consolation for linda park after "the crossing" ep had malcolm explicitly declare t'pol "the most attractive female on this ship" :evil:

"Blalock's ugly implants"
-i suppose as a professional you would know ;) as with jeri ryan i find them distracting and not in a good way. both these chicks are the result of generations of fortunate breeding. both women have more than enough inherent physical charm without having to resort to surgical attempts to appeal to the maximum number tasteless american males. when i see their chests, first and foremost i see compromise, unrealistic insecurity or excessive ambition- none of which i find erotic. give me a well-bred babe who's sufficiently aware of & confident in her eugenic advantage to never consider such unseemly, l-c-d pandering :kiss:

"if you want to capture original Trek's sense of sexuality"
-personally i favor the sexuality of individual trek dames rather than that of any one show. tos is overrated in that sense; odona from tos ("mark of gideon"), ro from tng, melanie smith's ziyal from ds9, and susanna thompson from voy and ds9 are where the Real loci of trek sex lie :kiss: hell, even janeway with the sleek, boyish, parted 'do she briefly donned after shedding her season 1 patrician schoolmarm bun :kiss:

"just 'oh, something odd happened on the cargo deck"
-yeah that was Dullsville; a part of space in which people survive being anatomically inverted, and all We see is a strong wind blowing the neighbor's trash cans across the street? :p

ltb: "REAL Star Trek doesn't (get old)"
-actually if tos is the "real" gold standard, for me it long since has. i watched it lots when i was 8, and reimmersed myself from ~'85-87. after all that it's long felt like i've gotten what i can from it, & have felt little impulse to revisit. though i still dig my fave old ep "mirror mirror" now & again :)
originality or lack thereof's never been a true issue for me re trek. trek fans say they want originality but they have little actual appetite for it, as it requires more rigor and background from an audience than a desire for mere "entertainment". but that's ok cuz originality is not the only virtue to which trek or other art can aspire. scifi is genre, and by definition genre offers the opposite of originality. i don't watch scifi for originality, i watch it for fun :)
vt

scruffziller
09-14-2003, 08:28 AM
GARGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!
:frus::mad::frus::mad::frus::mad::frus::mad::frus: :mad::frus::mad::frus::mad::frus::mad::frus:

THEM STUPID IDIOTS
AT MY WB AFFILIATE
THAT CARRIES ENTERPRISE CHANGED ITS TIME AT THE LAST MINUTE!!!!!!!!! MY REPLAY WAS SET TO GO!!!!!!!! AND RECORDED THAT 70s SHOW I MISSED IT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!ARGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tycho
09-14-2003, 12:52 PM
I take it you're only slightly angry?

Check your TV guide: they replay it tonight (Sunday night) on most UPN affiliates.

You probably want to watch it live to make sure you see this one.

scruffziller
09-14-2003, 02:32 PM
Nope I checked my real TV guide nothing......
I heard it was moved to 12:00 AM today from 6 P.M. on Saturday.
But according to my Replay for next week it should play the next ep anyway.:(

AmanaMatt
09-16-2003, 06:24 PM
Who wants to take bets that T'pol ends up in a Vulcan mud bath (fight) this season...



...not that I am a prude, but give me a break on all the pointless attempts at being sexy, it just comes off as desperate.

JediTricks
09-17-2003, 02:57 AM
Babylon 5 dealt with sex, DS9 dealt with sex, even TNG had a few moments, yet none of those series ever headed down "gratuitous road" like Enterprise (which had its way paved by Voyager's 7 of 9). I have no problem with expressing sexuality on the show in some way, I have a problem with adding it gratuitously to the core of a character simply to increase ratings. It's insulting to the viewers.

Exhaust Port
09-17-2003, 04:08 AM
Lt. Yar did use Data as her sex toy in that one episode. Thinking back on that, it's somewhat disturbing.

JediTricks
09-17-2003, 04:19 AM
They didn't SHOW it though, and she was spacedrunk at the time. ;)

Exhaust Port
09-17-2003, 04:27 AM
Spacedrunk? :D

Exhaust Port
09-17-2003, 08:00 PM
I expected them to show a hologram of the Death Star as they talked about their "new weapon."
Hey there is a Death Star!!

Anakin2121
09-17-2003, 09:23 PM
So what did everyone think of tonight's episode? I thought it was pretty well-done, especially the sequence where they repelled the Osaarians that invaded the ship. It was a long, drawn-out room-to-room firefight with mainly music and no dialogue. Nice. :)

Tycho
09-18-2003, 02:09 AM
I liked it.

It reminded me of a lot of things done before though:

The Fergeni mugging this Enterprise and the Enterprise D.

Star Wars and the Death Star (cool to see it in Trek though.)

The Dyson's spere from TNG with Scotty's appearence.

Voyager mutating through folded space when they all ended up in the pool hall on the holideck in the end.

The fight with Khan in engineering.

But all in all the new crew pulled off these old stunts rather well and I liked the episode.


The coffee floating was a fun effect.

But they didn't explain why the sphere had the effect on that part of space, nor did they think about blowing it up, "This is Reed-5 I'm going in!"

That would normalize space and fixetheir coffee and their cargo bay.

THey didn't decide to rip the pirates off of everything they'd stolen from other ships.

THere's no Prime Directive now. And they are at war with the Xindi in a manner of speaking. So why not?

THe torture was still tame. The captain got beat up by many aliens races already, especially the Andorians, why he didn't kick the crap out of the priate himself, I don't know. Trip would have enjoyed doing it too.

Archer is starting to turn into Kirk. Anyone notice?

This mission was handled just as James T. would have. Except he might have boarded the pirate ship and looked for Orion Slave Girls to keep in his quarters.

But SF reached its greatest exploration for exploration's sake in TNG with Picard. Kirk was a military man, and Sisko was forced to be. Janeway was just lost.

But don't get me wrong. I enjoy the military Trek. Worf has always been one of my favorite characters in Star Wars...uh I mean Star Trek.

So I think i responsed to this episode just like any crewman from the USS Defiant would have!

JediTricks
09-19-2003, 12:07 AM
I didn't enjoy it, I sat through it checking my clock over and over. Tycho mentions a bunch of the things this episode "borrowed" from, and on that basis it felt horribly unoriginal, but the whole premise was based around something that I felt didn't work at all - the pirates beaming into the ship and beaming all that stuff out (not to mention beaming out the antimatter, which is something that's almost impossible to transport by Trek canon). I just didn't buy it, and the other thing that didn't help that was how little the crew was being hurt by these anomolies that were so threatening to EVERYBODY else. Finally, the stuff about not being able to leave the expanse was too much for me to take, finished this one's transformation into a voyager clone. The only element that I thought was interesting was that the orb MAY be a generator creating the anomolies, that was interesting to me.

Tycho
09-19-2003, 01:15 AM
Right. Which means they may have to blow it up in odeer to get out of this region of space.

Have we seen a movie about a small ship having to blow up a giant spherical space station to set the universe right again?

Well, we haven't met all the special forces space marines yet. Maybe Mark Hamill will take on a guest star role when they select someone to fly that ship? :rolleyes:

The Separatist council with an insect-like alien trying to secretly create (use) a spherical space station...

How about adding forbidden love? Trip and T'Pol get together and she gets pregnant but because of some personality twist, Trip goes off and joins the Xindi...

The guy from the future appearing like a Phantom Menace...

The more I think about it, the more pedestrian this show sounds.

I still can enjoy it and will tune in every week, but I hope the writers have something better up their sleaves for this sotry line.

scruffziller
09-19-2003, 01:18 PM
GARGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

Now it seems that my WB affiliate is not carrying Enterprise at all now!!!!!!
It did show it to be recorded this coming week but now there is nothing!!!! RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!! !!!!!!!!!

Aside from that. I got this interesting info from StarTrek.com from their forums.

Subject: Enterprise, a prequel to the mirrior universeBy: red_alert32 Sep 19, 2003 11:02:08AM Message: Think about it, ever since the series started, it seams to go against everything we know about the Star Trek Universe. First contact with the Klingons happened earlier than recorded. A temporal cold war is in place now? We saw even the Borg. And now Earth was attacked and Enterprises mission is of war now? In ten years from then, the Federation will be founded. If Enterprise continues its war-like trend, we will witness the birth of not the United Federation of Planet but of the Terran Empire. This could be a prequel of the enigmatic mirror universe.

Also perhaps if this is the case, we could see a rebirth of ST movies!!!!!!!!
Tiberius RETURNS!!!!!!!!!!! Shatner could reprise his role!!!!!!!!!!:crazed:

JediTricks
09-19-2003, 09:58 PM
Nobody is going to believe fat old Shatner as the evil commander of the mirror universe forces. ;)

Interesting theory though, I like it almost as much as my "the last ep will have Archer and the crew wipe everything they've done out to save history" theory that's now in the toilet thanks to Berman ditching the Temporal cold war.


Tycho, I thought the MACO forces this time around were so bland and lifeless that it took me a second to notice they weren't regular Enterprise crewmen extras... except for the gratuitous "suiting up" scene at the beginning.

scruffziller
09-22-2003, 11:29 AM
THANK GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:happy:

It is now on our NBC affiliate. On at 12:00 AM Sundays.
These were the rumors going around when it was suppose to come on.
And know the RePlay has confirmed it!!!!!!!!!!! I will eventually catch the missed eps.

mrmiller
09-22-2003, 02:20 PM
I've enjoyed this season so far. Sure there are nit-picky things in every show, but I liked them. They have made the show more exciting, and I like the anger and determination in Archer. I see him getting to a point where he is going to seriously start questioning his character and morale. I also like how Trip is somehow "lost" now. He started off with wide eyes for exploration, and a bit over zealous and niave. Now he is growing bitter and cynical. I don't see what the big deal is with the shots of a half dressed T'Pol. What's not to like (but I whole heartedly agree- it seemed a little desperate due to the lacking ratings the show has had.).

I don't see why some people take the series so seriously. Relax a bit and try to enjoy it- not pick it apart. It's sci-fi, so about anything can be done and explained later. It does look to me like they are trying to get this season back on the right track. I have small anoyances with it as well, but I don't let that kill my enjoyment of Star Trek.

=MATT=

mrmiller
09-25-2003, 12:10 PM
This weeks enterprise (Extinction) was pretty good. They have got this season into the feeling of exploration that seemed to be lacking a bit last year. Add in the fact that they have a mission as well, and it has actually increased my interest a bit. Last year (and the first year) they were just ďexploringĒ but it seemed more like they were just wondering around aimlessly. I donít know, but for some reason Iím more intrigued with watching this year. Maybe itís the new and improved TíPol ;) Iíll go for now and leave you all to your TíPol bashing :p

=MATT=

JediTricks
09-26-2003, 10:39 PM
I didn't think much of this ep at all, it smacked of TNG and Voyager though, especially that ending. It would have been really cool if Archer was keeping the virus to introduce into the Xindi society as a last-ditch weapon though. :D

scruffziller
09-28-2003, 08:48 AM
*sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhsssssssssssssss*:cry:

Stupid....stupid.....stupid.......IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!

All set to record............................right on my NBC affliliate. Enterprise.
And THEN. They change the title on my Replay database to
STAR TREK:ENTERPRISE so it didn't record!!!!!:frus: So now I must check just before I leave for work.

JediTricks
09-28-2003, 08:30 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot about that, it's official, the show's titlecard changed to read:

- Star Trek -

Enterprise


Whoopee.

scruffziller
09-29-2003, 05:35 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot about that, it's official, the show's titlecard changed to read:

- Star Trek -

Enterprise




Whoopee.
eh..heh...heh...heh.......*sarcastic laughter* *slaps JediTricks upside the head*:frus:

It's not funny.:cry:...................................:D

JediTricks
09-29-2003, 09:15 PM
Not funny "ha ha", but "Jeffrey Dahmer" funny. :D

scruffziller
09-30-2003, 07:14 AM
Not funny "ha ha", but "Jeffrey Dahmer" funny. :D
Huhhhhhh, :eek:

JediTricks
10-01-2003, 06:35 PM
It's a line from MTV's failed CG-VJ, Cyber Cindy, who had a most entertaining show at the time. Sad that a computer-generated VJ could be so much better than the rest of the mid '90s MTV shows.

Tycho
10-02-2003, 01:11 AM
Enterprise was OK tonight. The fighting was cool. The plot? Nothing impressive.

If I was the Captain I'd have stayed on that planet and personally interviewed all the slave women though.

If the character of that girl keeps returning, they might start to have the type of recurring roles you cared about on Deep Space Nine - but I thought that Sillik the Sulibaan and Ambassador Sovaal, and Shran, etc. were such characters -and now we probably won't see them this season.

Plus Duras, the Klingon Archer left behind in prison, and more.

I'm on the fence about this Xindi thing. I'll probably be able to tell you if I like where the show's going, later in the season.

mrmiller
10-02-2003, 08:57 AM
I liked this episde better than rest of the season 3 episodes so far. It started to give you a true feel of the mounting tension and conflict between the Xindi and Humans. I also think she will, show up again. At least this is one of those episodes that shows where the series is heading. And BTW- this episode proves that Archer aint no captian Kirk. :sur:

=MATT=

JediTricks
10-02-2003, 05:56 PM
I didn't think much of this ep. It seemed like everything was served up on a plate whereas if this was DS9, these elements would have taken 2 or 3 episodes... (5 or 6 if this was B5, but that's just wishful thinking). Once Archer learned of what she was, I was literally yelling "PHASER HER!" at the TV, Archer could have killed her, had Phlox alter her, anything. If she was merely a tricorder, she would have been destroyed on the spot, but instead, ol' Softee here will risk his entire race so some bimbo who has clearly shown which side she's on can live. I thought he was supposed to be growing tougher with this mission!

Also, the thing that bothered me most about this one was how the villains were *so* impervious to Enterprise crew weapons fire, unless it was a main character shooting. They have all these magic weapons and yet are just sitting around in the expanse doing nothing.

JediTricks
10-09-2003, 08:14 PM
I thought this ep was a little better than the rest of season 3 so far. I had a few nits to pick, like why the phase pistols are so much more effective than the marine's pulse rifles, and why does Enterprise have 4 launch bays but only 2 shuttlecraft. But overall, the ep felt like a fairly solid ep.

Exhaust Port
10-09-2003, 09:36 PM
This episode was OK, I've like others this season better.

scruffziller
10-10-2003, 11:12 AM
Anyone notice during the "racy" scenes that the scoring seemed very Original Series. Especially on that planet when they met up with that "businessman.":D It just screamed Kirk all the way. It was great.

mrmiller
10-10-2003, 12:27 PM
Tis was probably my favorite episode this season. I'm really liking the new season a lot better than the previous 2. This season just seem s better now that they have a mission. They are exploring, and looking for information on the Xindi. The feeling of Exploration just comes out better. Before it was like they were just wondering around in space.

=MATT=

Tycho
10-13-2003, 01:25 PM
I liked this week's episode. They used the Vulcans like Borg though. That's what it reminded me of. That, or Zombies.

T'Pol acted pretty good and the end nightmare sequence was a cool surprise.

Travis and Trip had a cool side-mission to go on, and the flying maneuvers in the asteroids were cool. I like how they showed the little rocks sparking off the shuttles. It was about time for that sort of realism.

The coincidence that this was T'Pol's old ship was a stretch of the imagination.

Next, they'll run into Travis' family out there.

I liked the fact that the "red shirt" didn't get killed on this mission. I watched this alone, but had I been with other fans, I would have lost a bet on that guy's life expectancy. I was waiting for him to get knocked off the whole episode! Hahaha.

I also liked the beam-walk over the deck breach scene. Just that it's hard to buy that Archer could balance over that, especially while carrying T'Pol. Had this been a feature film, I'd have had him fall off, catch her with his other arm painfully wrapped around the beam, and then try and put her over his shoulder while going hand-over-hand on the beam.

The body count set a new record for violence this season. Doom: the Star Trek Episode.

Anyway, I'm curious why this episode didn't air Halloween week? It seems so perfect for a horror episode.

But I thoroughly enjoyed it and would watch it over again if I had it taped.

mrmiller
10-16-2003, 10:18 AM
Well, I didnít make it through the entire episode. I fell asleep about 2/3rds through. I had recorded it so I could watch the Baseball games, and didnít start it until really late. Probably my least favorite this season, unless it had some amazing ending. She is also my least favorite core character, so my interest was low to begin with. She is too whiney. She is the Wesley Crusher of the past. Iíll have to finish watching it sometime, but Iím not in any big hurry.

=MATT=

JediTricks
10-17-2003, 04:45 AM
Meh, pretty bland ep, nothing original or creative. I bet the scenes Hoshi saw are from future eps though.


I think the only person that can truly save this show and turn it into great Trek is Shatner. If you look at ST5 as an extension of the show and not the films, it is a great piece of Trek, it really captures the essence of the show very well with great action, comedy, adventure, and exploration. Also, his Trek books have been really fantastic, I especially love how he took the POS that was ST:Generations and made a sequel far and away surpassed the film (heck, it even did the "meeting of these 2 generations" gimmick way better than the film). Finally, Shatner is instant name draw, you replace Berman with Shatner and everybody will be interested to see what's going on.

vulcantouch
10-17-2003, 11:54 AM
. . .which is what i don't respect about them. if they got something interesting to do w/the xindi they should Do it already, not waste our time w/psychic seductri, phantom-of-opera clones, macho pirates, monkey-morphing and borg-zombie vulcans :p put up or shut up, trekco!
anyone know if their ratings are still in the toilet, along with artasylum's dopey bargain-binned figures?
vt

scruffziller
10-23-2003, 02:54 PM
I am happy to say that the series seems a little better with every ep being different yet the same. Meaning, linked to the one purpose of fighting the Xindi. Trying to use the DS9/Voyager formula hopefully will save it. They need to get the WB writers over there.

mrmiller
10-23-2003, 08:59 PM
I agree. I like the flow and direction this season is taking. Now if the writing and episodes would only get better... They are off into the right direction, just keep it up and keep improving.


=MATT=

mrmiller
10-30-2003, 10:11 AM
Another cool episode of season 3. They are really getting that ďepisodicĒ feel to them from episode to episode. I still wish we had more of the intriguing timeline cold-war stuff, but I like the continuation from episode to episode with the Xindi. While this weeks episode wasnít heavy on action, it was good with Archer maybe realizing he is not there to start a war and exterminate all Xindi. Now he realizes itís more to prevent the war, and protect the innocent, whether it be Xindi or Human.

=MATT=

scruffziller
11-02-2003, 04:04 PM
I agree. I like the flow and direction this season is taking. Now if the writing and episodes would only get better... They are off into the right direction, just keep it up and keep improving.


=MATT=
I think the story is so big though that it is going to be a gradual crawl to the climax.

Tycho
11-03-2003, 02:27 AM
I agree with the comments above. I catch Enterprise on Sundays, and really enjoyed this episode. I liked Trip beaming the weapon he didn't understand off of the ship, and it was a cool bio-cell integrated in it. Starfleet would never have guessed, but years later Voyager would be operated that way.

Anyway, the seeker droids were cool as well.

I thought Captain Archer was going to get trapped on the Xindi ship and it would be a too-be-continued episode.

by the way: I think the Xindi thing DOES have to do with the Temperal Cold War story arc. I think it's a plot by Future Guy to help accomplish whatever they are trying to do.

If I were Star Trek's creators, I'd have the Future Guy be involved with the Dominion, as they lost the most by there being a Federation. They are trying to stop the birth of the Federation, and the only two enemies that have the most to gain by that would be the Borg, or the Dominion. The Borg wouldn't be going about it that way, so it leaves the Dominion. Future Guy is probably a Vorta if they did it right, but he could predictably be a Romulan angry from the fall-out of the Reman Revolution (StarTrek: Nemesis) or a Vulcan who can't stand humans or their emotional effects on Vulcans (Sisko's rival from the Logicians?).

The best motivation for this would be the Dominion though. That's the direction they should take this in.

After failing to genetically alter the Suliban to fight humans, they will next surgically alter Klingons to look more human, thus explaining Classic Star Trek Klingons like Kor, Koloth, and Kang.

Meanwhile, that's the way the show would have a chance. But if not, it will never in a million years touch the achievement that was DEEP SPACE NINE - the best Star Trek ever!

scruffziller
11-03-2003, 03:42 AM
DEEP SPACE NINE - the best Star Trek ever!
Uh oh....................:sur: ........................................:D
Nah, for me STNGen was the best ever.

For me, since I think this show is about the history of the Terran Empire not the Federation, I believe Future guy is either a "Q" (posing as someone mortal)
or Tiberius Kirk is in the background somehwere. The figure is too slim and tall to be Shatner so Tiberius would run into the column and yell "you fool!!" and push him out of the way and then step into that cloak column.
But the Dominion theory is good too. I like the Klingon looks change theory too.

mrmiller
11-03-2003, 02:20 PM
I like those ideas Tycho. The whole ďfuture guyĒ dominion thing would be very interesting, and further help link this series to the others, even though they do so many other things to separate themselves to the point I almost think of it as an ďalternate universeĒ Star Trek (not THE alternate universe).

I also like the Klingon theory. Maybe they alter the Klingonís to better infiltrate the humans, and instead of being war-like and overpowering, they would employ more tactical and cunning measures. Remember, very few humans even know what Klingons look like at this time, let alone have ever met one to know their characteristics.


=MATT=

mrmiller
11-06-2003, 10:15 AM
Another good episode for Enterprise. Iím pleasantly surprised at how well this season is going. I really like how they seem to be doing one episode specifically one the Xindi, then alternating it with a more science fiction based episode. I watched both Smallville and Enterprise last night, and both dealt with timelines and this episode just showed me how much better Enterprise and itís writing has become.

I most always have a problem with timeline episodes, but not so much with this one. I really liked how after everything was fixed, they characters in their present time didnít have any residual memories of the future events. It seems like they always show something like that after a time-warp, and it bugs me for some reason. I thought the future characters were great too, and showed a progression of how you see the characters moving now, especially Trip. I liked how his character after becoming captain seems to be more ďangryĒ like his character now is becoming after the death of his sister and his experiences in the expanse. Also the tension on evolution of TíPol and Archers relationship was interesting with Archer having no long-term memory. All and all a very good episode, specifically since a changing of the timeline issue was involved.

=MATT=

Exhaust Port
11-06-2003, 04:12 PM
I liked last nights episode. I'm not always a fan of these alternate universe plots but this one was entertaining for what ever reason.

JediTricks
11-06-2003, 08:10 PM
I sorta liked this ep but the whole time I was distracted by the fact that they were going to hit the reset button at the end... and looky look how much of a total "none of this happened" episode this turned out to be (though I still think having the whole series turn into that would be interesting). If this is the type of thing they want to do, maybe they should just do a Star Trek version of The Twilight Zone, an anthology series with no connection from episode to episode.

smurfvader
11-09-2003, 08:10 PM
While T'Pol looked hot with long hair this episode blows. It ripped off at least 3 other Star Trek episodes. The first being "All good Things". And look next week is ripping off "A piece of the Action."

JIm

Tycho
11-09-2003, 11:17 PM
I liked the episode and the suggestion that T'Pol is in love with Archer.

mrmiller
11-10-2003, 01:46 AM
I sorta liked this ep but the whole time I was distracted by the fact that they were going to hit the reset button at the end... and looky look how much of a total "none of this happened" episode this turned out to be (though I still think having the whole series turn into that would be interesting). If this is the type of thing they want to do, maybe they should just do a Star Trek version of The Twilight Zone, an anthology series with no connection from episode to episode.

I like the Sci-Fi spin in the Star Trek universe. There are really no good true science fiction shows around right now, so letting Star Trek give us a pretty straight forward Sci-Fi episode is a nice change. Then get back to the Xindi in the next episode. I'd like to see 1 or 2 "episodic" episodes and then one science fiction themed one.

=MATT=

scruffziller
11-10-2003, 06:35 AM
While T'Pol looked hot with long hair this episode blows. It ripped off at least 3 other Star Trek episodes. The first being "All good Things". And look next week is ripping off "A piece of the Action."

JImTrue, but I think that is what they are doing to save the show. ST has always been about recycling itself and it works. They tried to be original and the show was failing. I thought though the idea of a time travelling disease was a pretty original spin on an old idea. There really are no original ideas anymore. Like Mr. Garrison said, "Everything has already been done before the Simpsons.":D

mrmiller
11-13-2003, 10:19 AM
Another good episode this week. I donít know why Iím so excited over this season Enterprise. Are all these episodes this much better, or is it that the past years were so bad? Anyhow, Iím really getting into Enterprise this season. Maybe itís just me and my mindset. I didnít get to see the previews of next week (had to switch over to Smallville as they seem to start it a minute or two early every time), but Iím ready for them to get back to the Xindi after a 2 episode break. I guess Iíll check startrek.com and see what it is.

This episode reminded me of something you would have seen in the original series. I wonder if would have been an even better episode if it had taken place with the Prime Directive in place?

=MATT=

JediTricks
11-13-2003, 07:46 PM
Since they were humans, the Prime Directive wouldn't have applied anyway.

As for next week's episode, it seems to be another reset-button ep, this time with Trip dying and leaving behind a baby or something.

vulcantouch
11-13-2003, 11:59 PM
. . .when it was called "city on the edge", "yesterday's ent", "inner light", "all good things", "the visitor", "timeless", "endgame", "year of hell" etc, and i also liked it this time! also liked cowboy ep 1st time i saw it when it was called "fistful of datas", "specter gun" et al :crazed: any fan claiming to abhor formula shouldn't be watching episodic tv in the first place, which is more about finding formulas that Work than actual originality.

scruffy-z: "for me STNGen was the best ever"
-ewwww :p
vt

JediTricks
11-14-2003, 09:41 PM
So they were taken from the old west and planted on this planet, where did they get the textiles to make the clothes, the paint to cover the stores, the metal for the guns, the gunpowder for the bullets, photographic equipment for the picture of Cooper Smith, etc.? How were they able to burn down a starship? Why did the humans decide to run their lives like the old west?

scruffziller
11-16-2003, 03:36 PM
I really liked this ep.
It reminded me alot of the STNGen ep "WHo Watches The Watchers"
I always like to see primitive folk witness technology beyond their comprehension and watch them scurry about in fear and dismay.:D

Tycho
11-16-2003, 11:23 PM
I loved this episode! I am a huge fan of good, modern westerns, and this was a rollicking bushwack of a time for me! Yeee-Haw!

Oh, could I ever stand to re-visit that planet again - maybe even witness them developing their first airplane! (are there any good movies about the Wright Bros?)

What do you suppose happened to the hardass? We didn't see him at the end of the episode, and I assume all SF weapons were on stun.

They needed to take him up to the ship to prove to them that humans had evolved and curb prejudice at its roots.

I would have made this one a 2-parter!

Dang I wished I'd taped this episode. I'd totally watch it over again!

smurfvader
11-19-2003, 02:57 PM
I don't know how many of you visit the Star Trek website or if you heard about this elsewhere,but the actrees who played Ensign Cutler died. Here's a link to the story. I just found out yesterday. I'm going to miss her mainly because she was one of those actress that you recognize from so many other shows including one of my favorites "Seinfeld."

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/3639.html

JIm

Tycho
11-20-2003, 02:37 AM
I am very sorry that this wonderful actress was taken away from us.

I thought her portrayal of Ens. Cutler brought something bright and colorful to Enterprise, and I liked her scenes with Phlox better than anyone else has done a scene with him.

I wished I knew why she had to die. She seemed way too young to leave us.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

Tonight's episode was ironically also about loss. It was one of Enterprise's most dramatic and gripping story lines they've done thus far. I truly love episodes that make you think, and Star Trek really handled the ethical ramifications of cloning with this show. It made me proud to be a Star Trek fan. Looks like they can still pull a good one out of their hat from time to time.

This time, Enterprise was better than Smallville!

mrmiller
11-20-2003, 10:19 AM
Unlike Tycho- I think most all of this seasons Enterprise episodes have been better than this years Smallville. :confused:

I really didnít think Enterprise was going to be a very good one, and was rolling my eyes at it in the beginning, but it turned out very well. It was another good Sci-fi episode with a nice ethical dilema. It was definitely interesting anyhow, but Iím ready to get back to the Xindi. Again, I didnít stay tuned for next weeks episode, but will have to check startrek.com to see if we can get back on track with the Xindi mission after a few weeks off. I couldnít believe that it was already the 10th episode this season, so we are about half way through. You know that means get ready for the repeats to be added in between the new shows.

=MATT=

Tycho
11-20-2003, 08:08 PM
I have good news for Mr.Miller:

Next week's show IS new; and it is also about the Xindi with a cool combat scene (handgun shots or something) previewed.


It looked good, and it also looks like Smallville is a re-run next week, so it'll be convenient for Trekkers who are fans of both series.

JediTricks
11-20-2003, 10:25 PM
Reptilian Xindi on 2004 Earth next week. This show is really starting to feel like a Voyager clone. This week's ep felt forced to me, the reset button being on Trip instead of the whole ship was an interesting twist, but this clone symbiote dealy was a mega-CPD.

Tycho
11-20-2003, 11:31 PM
mega-cpd?

Not sure what that means. But if you mean that they computer generated a character to be Sim that looked and talked just like Conner Traineer, then they did a really good job! I thought it was the actor playing both characters! :crazed:

I also notice how they're teasing us until they eventually hook up T'Pol and Tucker as the first Vulcan-Human couple in space.

Tycho
11-27-2003, 04:11 AM
CARPENTER STREET:

Enterprise rocked tonight. This is possibly the darkest episode of Star Trek that I can ever remember. Quite a show with prostitutes and evil science experiments and bio-weapons.

Perhaps Saddam Hussein is actually a Xindi timetraveler?

In any case, Trek time travel stories are usually causes for humorous episodes (First Contact, the movie, being a notable exception, though the film was sprinkled with lighter moments than any held in this episode). Even the drive through moment was sort of done kind of darkly, as was T'Pol's disgust at eating meat.

But they made quite a Captain-First Officer Team tonight.

Overall, great episode!

Now how about some Xindi reptile action figures?

JediTricks
11-28-2003, 11:07 PM
CPD - Contrived Plot Device


Bleah, Carpenter Street. Gee, where have I heard of a Star Trek villain using Earth's past to destroy Starfleet's future before? :rolleyes: With this episode, it becomes abundandly clear that Berman and Braga simply created the Xindi be their prequel replacements for the Borg:
Unstoppable killing machines that overwhelm the ship? Yup.
Soldiers who aren't affected by regular phaser fire? Of course.
A race bent on Earth's destruction made up of multiple species? Bingo.
Evil makeup creatures wearing tons of hoses and junk? Yeppers.Odd how Daniels tells Archie that it takes a long time for the future to ripple to them, yet EVERY single previous Enterprise time-travel episode has suggested the exact opposite.

The final action sequence was laughably flat, they stand there and shoot at each other for a few minutes and nothing even sparks or catches fire or anything, then Archie makes a loud leap across the rooftops and STILL gets away with catching the Xindi virus before it gets released.

Tycho
11-29-2003, 01:15 AM
It's funny how I agree with JediTricks' assessment above. I do. But I still really enjoyed the episode and have watched it twice, since I have it on tape.

scruffziller
12-02-2003, 03:58 PM
CPD - Contrived Plot Device


Bleah, Carpenter Street. Gee, where have I heard of a Star Trek villain using Earth's past to destroy Starfleet's future before? :rolleyes: With this episode, it becomes abundandly clear that Berman and Braga simply created the Xindi be their prequel replacements for the Borg:
Unstoppable killing machines that overwhelm the ship? Yup. Soldiers who aren't affected by regular phaser fire? Of course. A race bent on Earth's destruction made up of multiple species? Bingo. Evil makeup creatures wearing tons of hoses and junk? Yeppers.
Wow that never occured to me. Good observation, JT.
Still thought it was a real cool ep though.

JediTricks
12-02-2003, 09:54 PM
Thanks Scruff, wish I had noticed it a few eps earlier though, would have saved me the trouble of trying to get to know the ZZZindi. ;)

Tycho
12-04-2003, 02:08 AM
Re-run tonight? I assumed so and didn't tape anything.

I got that right? What episode was shown?

Will it be a new show next week?

LTBasker
12-04-2003, 02:22 AM
Anomaly was shown, basic Enterprise episode.

Got to see Carpenter's street, not really much of an episode. Bakula is doing pretty nicely with the "no more bending over" attitude for Archer. I'm sick of T'Pol, so that could've been what made the episode not very appealing for me. I think Trip would've been better for going with Archer than T'Pol.

Kinda odd though that Daniels mentions timeline changes occur slowly for them, when in every other time episode the changes have always been instant, including Ent episodes.

JediTricks
12-05-2003, 12:49 AM
There won't be new eps of Ent until 2004, I believe.

Tycho
12-06-2003, 01:09 AM
Star Trek's in TROUBLE

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104942,00.html

The Text copied and pasted from the above link reads:

NEW YORK — Time is catching up with the ageless "Star Trek" (search) franchise.

Born during Lyndon Johnson's administration, it is showing its age - and signs are in the stars that this could be the end of one of TV's longest and most popular series.

The series' fifth spawn, UPN's "Enterprise," (search) is in the ratings dumps. And even the last "Trek" movie, 2002's "Nemesis," tanked at the box office, garnering only $18.5 million its opening weekend - the lowest opening ever for a "Trek" movie.

"I think 'Star Trek' still could be viable, but I don't think it needs to be a weekly [TV] series anymore," says industry maven Marc Berman. "'Star Trek' has been around for 40 years, and we've gotten a lot out of it."

"Star Trek" merchandise, once a powerhouse, has warped into a shadow of its former self - and even the show's official publication, Star Trek: The Magazine, has folded.

UPN, in a bid to drum up more interest for "Enterprise," changed the show's title to "Star Trek: Enteprise" this year - but ratings were still off 10 percent last month versus Nov. '02.

TV Guide even ran a feature titled "How to Fix 'Star Trek.'"

So, the question needs to be: Is the franchise still viable?

"If ratings for 'Enterprise' continue to go down next season, it's going to hurt the franchise," Berman says. "They can still do a movie or a TV special if there's not a weekly series - it is and will always be a viable franchise if treated properly."

To be fair, "Enterprise" had the bad luck to open this season against the dramatic baseball playoffs - which notched the best ratings in years.

"Enterprise" has taken a further pounding from The WB's popular "Smallville," (search) its timeslot competitor Wednesdays at 8 p.m.

Series creator Rick Berman (no relation to Marc), who is notoriously press-shy, wasn't available to comment - but he did tell trektoday.com that he thought UPN didn't effectively promote the show's early start date this season.

"UPN is never going to take 'Enterprise' off," Marc Berman says. "'Star Trek: Voyager' launched UPN and gave them the advantage over The WB, and that show lasted for seven years.

scruffziller
12-06-2003, 08:52 AM
Thanks Scruff, wish I had noticed it a few eps earlier though, would have saved me the trouble of trying to get to know the ZZZindi. ;)
Yes but you gotta admit this season has been tons better than the previous two. I had to basically force myself to watch it those first 2 but now I can't wait to get to the TV.

JediTricks
12-08-2003, 12:13 AM
Yes but you gotta admit this season has been tons better than the previous two. I had to basically force myself to watch it those first 2 but now I can't wait to get to the TV.
Actually, I feel it's quite the opposite, Enterprise may have had no direction at all, but at least it was still exploring the galaxy, now it's just in "goofy space" or whatever trying to be both TOS and DS9 and coming up short on both.

LTBasker
12-08-2003, 12:35 AM
Doesn't help that it's basically Voyager again with a new ship, crew and in the Alpha quadrant. Or maybe beta quadrant by now, dunno. I mean they're in a situation where they're the only Starfleet ship, and has been pointed out by JT the Xindi are basically the new Borg. North Star was like Voyager's "the 37's", and there's been too many other episodes that are just like other Voyager episodes. B&B gotta go.

Enterprise has potential, but B&B never see it. They always go with what they've already done, instead of trying something provoking.

Beast
12-09-2003, 04:33 PM
More news about the end of Enterprise, looks like Season 4 could be the last. They even reduced the number of Episodes for Season 4 from the normal 26 to 24. The following news is from Dark Horizon's website. Doesn't bold well for the series. And after the last two films were box office stinkers, it could be the end.

The talk of ratings and critical disappointment has been pervasive for some time now on the latest Trek spin-off. Despite its relaunch this year with a new storyline and purpose which has yielded a better quality show, ratings sadly haven't reflected it - whilst holding steady this year they're still far from ideal.

Then the other day this scoop came in, whilst the news is reasonable sounding I held off on it to see if I could find out anything corroborating or would deny its content. So far nothing either way but I'd thought I'd share it before it pops up somewhere else as 'fact' when its simply rumour for now:

"On the Paramount lot this week, a memo was circulated to the production staff advising them that the current season would be reduced to 24 shows from 26. This marks the first time in nearly 20 years that this has occurred for a Trek show; all non-first seasons of all the existing and previous series have always consisted of 26 shows (except TNG: Season 2 due to a writers strike).

Lot talk behind the memo is that next year will be the last season of "Enterprise". A fourth and final season of 24 shows, which with the first two seasons total episode count of 52, would fulfill the magic syndication requirement of 100 total episodes. No word on the future of the Franchise."
MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JediTricks
12-10-2003, 12:05 AM
The last 2 films did badly at the box office because they were weak Trek films. Plus, the post-thanksgiving holiday release has not been very kind to Trek in the past decade or so, they should stick with summer releases like most action films.

It would be a shame to dump the series now, there is some real potential to salvage it and bring viewers back, but only if they ditch the producers and writing staff and lower the budget to put a little crunch back into production and put pressure on the writers to not use FX as a crutch.

JediTricks
01-15-2004, 07:15 PM
Well, I must say, last night's ep was so disappointing, even not knowing or expecting anything from it. There was so little that was fresh or brazen that I nearly stopped watching (since I had seen these moves made so many times before). That ending was lame too, might as well have taken the TOS version of the ending and simply showed the VOTW the planet's surface on the bridge monitor, then send him off to the shuttlebays - cheaper and less goofy-looking. Instead we get to "experience" the final exclamation point on this overly-obvious message with a very crappy virtual environment surrounding the actors.

stillakid
01-15-2004, 10:37 PM
Well, I must say, last night's ep was so disappointing, even not knowing or expecting anything from it. There was so little that was fresh or brazen that I nearly stopped watching (since I had seen these moves made so many times before). That ending was lame too, might as well have taken the TOS version of the ending and simply showed the VOTW the planet's surface on the bridge monitor, then send him off to the shuttlebays - cheaper and less goofy-looking. Instead we get to "experience" the final exclamation point on this overly-obvious message with a very crappy virtual environment surrounding the actors.


As you suggest, the show is unfortunately mired in taking the tried and true path on many levels, not just the story. And sorry to say, it will remain that way until there is new leadership...people willing to take chances and take the road less traveled. But for now, the same old regime runs the show so that's pretty much what you're going to get.

I was going to suggest that if Star Trek fans wish to see a radical improvement, they should mount a letter writing campaign to Sherry Lansing. I found this article which illustrates her interpretation of what's going on in the world of Trek:


February 15 2003
By: Steve Krutzler
Dept: Star Trek: Nemesis
The February 21st issue of Entertainment Weekly has a short article entitled "Falling 'Star'," according to TrekWeb visitor 'JoJoMorty'. In the article on page 12, the magazine speaks to Paramount head of motion pictures, Sherry Lansing, who echoes recent remarks by Rick Berman that the domestic box office failure of STAR TREK NEMESIS is a mystery.
"It was a very big disappointment to us and remains a mystery," Lansing says. "We can only assume that the fan base in some way has shrunk."

Although the reaction to the movie from many fans has been positive, EW tracks down a representative of those fans who believe the movie deserved to fail. Mark Anbinder, the VP of Starfleet, the International STAR TREK Fan Association laughs that Paramount "failed to get anyone but the fan base in the seats," according to the mag, which says Anbinder thinks NEMESIS failed even to reach that core audience. "I haven't even seen it a second time," he says.

It's not enough for her to realize that the audience has shrunk. She also needs to understand why. All the letters in the world sent to Berman won't change a thing, if you catch my drift.

Tycho
01-15-2004, 11:55 PM
Make the future guy a Vorta or a Dominion engineered Clone of Archer, trying to change history to undo the birth of the Federation.

Use their genetic engineering ability to turn Klingons into human looking agents to explain TOS.

Show the Klingon War. Show the Romulan conflict.

Pander to nostalgia by introducing even the young Sarek.

Get the story on, and make the temperal tampering explain continuity discrepencies.

Develop some new b-characters, possibly even kill some main characters unexpectedly, maybe even blow up the ship and have them get a new ship to make it radically unsafe and as dangerous as it should be.

Turn it on soap-opera style like DS9 did, but make it so you can start fresh without having been following it, yet you get hooked once you start.

The premise of Enterprise is salvageable.

A sci-fi channel or Paramount Mini-Series that ties in the end of Deep Space Nine's characters' fates would work.

The movie franchise is possibly dead, or start over with a new crew possibly - that's entirely movie-cast only. Hire some big names like Tom Hanks to play a new character. Make the movies drastic and brutal - not about returning a recurring cast every theater outing.

Keep the ethics and moral issues in Star Trek - with the action - just like Wrath of Khan did.

Tom Hanks - Captain (sort of an Archer type)
Dina Meyer - female officer (playing a human this time)
Gary Sinise - human male officer (sort of a Trip Tucker)
Josh Hartnett - he can act - playing a tragic sort of Tom Paris character
Christopher Lee - playing a villain of course
Nicole Kidman - playing a female officer
Daniel Day-Lewis - playing an alien scoundrel (he could pull it off)

Using some big names and a whole new cast, maybe not using the Star Trek title but just the movie name (like "Nemesis") or something, and let surviving characters recurr into other movies.

I was just thinking of actors I remember being capable of pulling off serious drama.

"Vacuum of Blood" read at PG-13.

"For over 5 million years life has evolved on earth unhindered, isolated in its own cycle of evolution. For only a brief second of its existence did the exploration of the larger galaxy open a window to a greater plane of co-existence with other species. Now natural selection will happen on a larger scale than ever before - and in a galaxy turned violent - earth is on the endangered species list. Only one organization has the men and women ready to challenge that and reach the 25th Century - or Extinction!"

"Starfleet: Vacuum of Blood!"

- Saving Private Ryan in outer space! - The New York Times

- Is this Star Trek or Appocalypse Now? - The Washington Post

- Can mankind's morality last alongside it's evolution in a universe turned evil?
- Inside Entertainment

Don't miss Vacuum of Blood - at theaters everywhere this summer!

scruffziller
01-18-2004, 09:14 AM
This ep, basically a redo of TOS ep LET THAT BE YOUR LAST BATTLE FIELD. Everything down to the opposite markings on the face and the hatred of the opposing sides(difference "religion" instead of race) and the ending where the planet had been razed of its people. Liked it actually.

Tycho
01-20-2004, 04:11 AM
1st - please don't delete my post. It discusses religion, but that's what the Star Trek episode was about!

2nd - I am being as respectful as I can with the following about last night's episode.

I liked it too, and it was very thought-provoking. It took me to where I really loathe organized religion. Each "sect" teaches that their way is right, and to convert the non-believers. Well, just like in WWII in Germany, or Bosnia or Iraq today, those that won't convert can easily be dehumanized enough to be killed. I think religion is a dangerous thing, and here we saw a ship full of radicals being lead by a demogouge who would take it too far. The shocker of how the leader felt when he saw what his faith had done to his world, his people, was in a small way satisfying since I know I cannot be there when every religious zealot I've met meets their own end and finds out what the afterlife (or lack thereof) is really all about. But there are some bad guys out there like Bin Laden, who you don't know if they really believe what they're preaching, or they just revel in it because of the power it brings them.

Did this guy believe in his faith, last night? Sometimes it seemed so. But likely he did not - when his subordinate questioned him, he said the Makers spoke through him, and it was therefore heresy to speak against the leader. Prenun, I think they called him. Well, if he actually did believe, then I doubt he'd feel so certain, so clear about what the Makers want. Our religion gives very specific references to God telling Moses exactly what to do. Sure, Moses, Abraham, Jesus, they all could have made their experiences up for their own reasons. This Prenun? The writers left his supposed encounters with the Makers a mystery.

Beast
01-20-2004, 12:50 PM
More rumblings of the demise of Enterpirse. This is from Cinescape Online:

You may remember speculation from last year that STAR TREK: ENTERPRISE, the latest TV series in the long-running sci-fi franchise, was in possible danger of being cancelled. Most of these fears seemed to originate with the news that two less episodes of ENTERPRISE would be needed for this season, and when combined with the show's lackluster ratings, produced gossip that the show could be hanging by a thread. There was also talk that the show was being moved to Friday evenings from its Wednesday perch on the network.

UPN suits and ENTERPRISE producer Rick Berman dispelled the rumor that the program would move to Fridays but did confirm that a shorter run was in store for the third season. Nevertheless, the news was downplayed as a minor issue and not one serious enough to deliver a deathblow to the struggling series. But last week's abrupt and unexpected cancellation of JAKE 2.0, the series that followed on UPN directly after ENTERPRISE, may have sent a pulse of fear through the cast and crew. At the very least it prompted an individual to write in and tell us what they say the scuttlebutt is on the set right now...

"I have a source inside Paramount saying the ENTERPRISE set is awash in rumor of its move to a new timeslot with perhaps its ultimate cancellation on UPN.

"Apparently, TREK staffers were assured by higher-ups at UPN, including people in Les Moonves office, that ENTERPRISE and JAKE 2.0 were safe. After all, JAKE 2.0 was signed to complete this season's run of episodes.

"But with the hammer coming down on JAKE this week, in addition to the 'trimming' of UPN's order of ENTERPRISE episodes this season, Star Trek's executives fear the promises given were disingenuous at best and are running on 'Red Alert' mode to save ENTERPRISE from cancellation doom, and this may include shopping the show to another network or cable channel."

[They preferred to remain anonymous.]

Even if what our scooper says is indeed being whispered by ENTERPRISE stagehands, it may not be what UPN brass are planning behind their closed doors. Perhaps.
MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

vulcantouch
01-20-2004, 11:06 PM
then to quote its insufferably-repeated promos, "that is So Freakin Cool" :dev: :D :evil:
meanwhile i liked archer's line in the last few seconds of "chosen realm" where, accompanied by an oversized, shatneresque arm sweep gesturing to the blasted surface, he utters (under his breath & turned away from camera so i'm not surprised if y'all didn't catch it), "let This be your last battlefield" :rolleyes: :silly:
vt

JediTricks
01-22-2004, 11:42 PM
He did not... right? Oh man, thanks a lot VT, now I'm gonna have nightmares about that for a few weeks. ;)

Last night's ep didn't really work for me, but had some cool elements. Nice to have Blue Weyoun back, but I would much rather have seen the Andorians stay with Enterprise throughout the Xindi story arc and at the end finally try to pull the stunt they did. A nice little Gul Dukat sorta thing, he's your buddy and actually helps you quite a bit, but at a certain point, he's going to do something really naughty but still be the same good guy on the side-level once he's caught. That's pre-maniac Dukat mind you.

JediTricks
02-05-2004, 09:03 PM
Wow, last night's episode was such a lame piece of crap! Except for actually getting the coordinates, not one thing was a surprise. Why is it that Archer never tries to actually talk with these Xindi instead of trying to play mind-screw games on them? Clearly he was getting through to his captured Xindi scientist's emotional state, yet they throw it all away on CPDs and pap writing. Even Kirk would have had some sort of emotional breakthrough with the guy!

Also, how come we still haven't had the crew find out the circumstances to how Earth is supposed to destroy the Xindi? Maybe the producers think it's just a McGuffin but I think either it's poorly-conceived or hiding something more interesting and they're too lazy to deal with either head on.

scruffziller
02-06-2004, 11:34 AM
Rumor has it that Berman is on his way out.

smurfvader
02-08-2004, 07:21 PM
That episode just left me confused. what exactly did the Xindi guy reveal?

jiM

JediTricks
02-08-2004, 08:52 PM
The location of where he was currently living with his family, which is protected by a lot of defenses, all of which tells Archer that this is likely the location of the weapon.

Tycho
02-09-2004, 02:03 AM
Wow. Tonight's episode was really good!

I thought it was really creative. I don't recall characters ever "putting on a sim" before - though it has happened often enough TO THEM.

Nice reversal.

Next week's T'Pol's mating rituals :D

scruffziller
02-09-2004, 06:13 AM
Wow. Tonight's episode was really good!

I thought it was really creative. I don't recall characters ever "putting on a sim" before - though it has happened often enough TO THEM.

Nice reversal.

Next week's T'Pol's mating rituals :D
I whole heartedly agree. Very refreshing. It's about time they added some more intensity and substance to the mix. I am eager to see what new challenges will befall them next.

JediTricks
02-12-2004, 04:35 PM
Was surprised about last night's episode, it wasn't half bad... the other half was though. ;) The dialogue had some cute moments for both B plots and even the sex stuff was handled differently than usual (more coy and almost silly than usual). If the music was better, this ep would have been 2/3rds "good" for once.

The A plot was a massive disappointment though, Voyager junk start to finish. It was especially annoying how the phase-shifting alien looked almost exactly like those stupid Suliban and had even more magic powers and a hand in the "sinister plot" from this season.

Darth Kirk
02-13-2004, 01:17 AM
Does anyone here want Captain Janeway back??? Who is with me :alien:

scruffziller
02-15-2004, 12:14 PM
HARBINGER
I really, really, really, really liked this episode................:crazed:

JediTricks
02-15-2004, 01:48 PM
Scruff, is that crazed face for sarcasm or something else?

Tycho
02-15-2004, 11:12 PM
I liked the stuff with Malcolm and the Major, though I thought Malcolm acted like a ****.

I think Trip and T'Pol should continue their relationship. I also think Amanda should get involved. Let me explain what I mean, so it is not confused with what you think I'm fantasizing: I think that Amanda should compete to win Trip, and T'Pol should get more assertive in trying to keep him.

Ultimately, I think that maybe Trip and T'Pol should become the first Vulcan-Human relationship, perhaps paving the way for a high ranking Vulcan like Sarek to have his relationship with his Amanda (Spock's mom) so that Spock can be born.

I am just full of this fascinating logic like that tonight :D

scruffziller
02-16-2004, 06:02 AM
Scruff, is that crazed face for sarcasm or something else?
I think you know what I speak of...........;) Or maybe you got up and left the room when the one and half second flash occurred.:D

JediTricks
02-17-2004, 10:47 PM
Must have, was there actual nudity, or another Enterprise "side o' breast, hide the nipple" shot?

JediTricks
03-04-2004, 06:24 PM
Oh my god was that lame! Enterprise-J?!? Time-travel after this whole season even when there were dozens of better times to make the incursion to?!? Archie getting caught when Trip & Mayweather fly all the way into the thing?!? T'pol having a complete meltdown?!? The ship being torn in pieces at the end?!? The worst part is, this ep did have some good moments too, but came off as a bad episode that was trying too hard to be something it's not, such as TNG's "The Best of Both Worlds pt 1". This felt so much like a Voyager episode it wasn't even halfway tolerable.

Tycho
03-07-2004, 11:18 PM
I liked it! I was like "Oh my Gosh! The ship's getting blown apart and there are crewmembers being blown out into space!"

That was cool action for a TV show - as was the effects budget for the underwater stuff. That was super cool!

"Anzati Prime" was probably my favorite episode of the season (though next week's rerun of the Old West one is also a favorite of mine).

So what a cliffhanger! Dang! I knew they had to do this right before rerun time. There have been 17 episodes of Enterprise this season I think.

That means there's less than 9 left if they are doing the 26 shows a typical season holds, though we've already read they are doing 24 I think.

I like the Reptile vs. Mammal stuff. You know like Planet of the Apes had humans vs. monkeys? Well they should do another show like that (not Star Trek, but a new series) where velocirators or something of that nature did thrive and evolve into intelligent life and humans have to fight for equal justice. Voyager did that ONE episode and it sucked that they didn't make more headway into that. Chakotay didn't always shine, but he was brilliant in that show.

But back to Enterprise! I can't wait to see the next set (or last set) of shows for this season! Cool deal!

JediTricks
03-09-2004, 06:40 PM
As much as I enjoy the effects (the crewmen getting spaced was pretty wild), they seem more distracting than enhancing to the flavor of this show. Plus, everything feels CG, nothing feels real (because nothing is) which I find annoying here - it worked for Babylon 5 because the storytelling was never compromised for it, but even Andromeda has more realism in their effects.

Tycho
03-10-2004, 01:19 PM
I got this e-mail from "Picard" the ArtAsylum message board administrator. (AA makes the Star Trek figures for anyone who actually does not know that).


Hello All,

This email is going out to over almost 2000 people on the Art Asylum forum. You are receiving it because you are a member of the forum. If you do not wish to receive any more emails. please contact me and let me know. Your name will be taken off the list.

It would seem that Star Trek Enterprise is in trouble and needs our support. It may be canceled. and soon. There are some things that you can do. but they must be done now in order to help the show. Please do not take this as a joke. It is not! Many of you will not remember this. In the 60's Star Trek the Original Series was going to be canceled. Two people stood up and started a campaign to help keep it on the air and did just that. Now is our time to show some serious support for Trek and Enterprise. Let's show them all that we are still here and still want Enterprise on the air. How can I do this you say? Well there are a couple of ways and I would love to see you do them all. Time is short! I would like to say that my information was obtained by a source that I trust 130% and a no BS type of person.

Here is what you need to do NOW...

Spread the word to other forums and anyone that you know that likes Trek and Enterprise. Have them all do what is stated below.

E-Online is conducting a poll on shows that are on the edge of being canceled. Please go here and vote.. the url is below.
http://www.eonline.com/Gossip/Kristin/Archive2004/040227_poll.html


There is also a forum setup on E-Online. The forum is not working as far as replies go.. You can still however start a new topic. Please go here and register. You will need to simply reply to the email that they send back to you once you register on there forum.. (takes 1 minute to do) and then start a topic and in the subject line type "please save Enterprise". Then post and tell them why you want it on. that simple. here is the url.
http://www.eonline.com/Interact/Backtalk/Boards/0,13,38-5,00.html

Kristen's email address is below. Flood her email with support letters.. email subject: Save Enterprise... body of message tell her why.. we need to drive her nuts with emails from the fans..
tvdiva@eonline.com


Here is the big one.. You need to actually print or write a (Snail Mail) letter and send it to the addys below. They need to go out NOW.. Next week will be too late. please do not say that you will do this later.. It will be over by then and Enterprise just reruns from here on out.. PLEASE MAIL THEM.. These are the people that will keep Enterprise on the air.

A COPY TO:
Mr. Brannon Braga / ERE
ENTERPRISE
Cooper Building Room 205
Paramount Studios
5555 Melrose Ave
Hollywood, CA 90038-3112
U.S.A.
-----------------------------
THE ORIGINAL TO:

Mr. Leslie Moonves
CBS Studio Center
7800 Beverly Boulevard,
Los Angeles, CA 90036-2112
U.S.A.


Once again.. this is our call.. everyone talks about how much they love Trek and want to see it on.. lets see how much you really want it on the air.

Save Enterprise NOW !!

Thanks
Tim/Picard




(Tycho Again) - what do you think we should do about it?

JediTricks
03-10-2004, 07:59 PM
The show is almost certainly dead, starting tonight, the timeslot has been pushed back an hour for this "Game Over" sitcom which looks like instant death and another UPN sitcom nobody watches, "The Mullets". I don't honestly believe Paramount/Viacom will listen to the viewers at this point, the show's budget is so incredibly overblown that they'd probably save money by airing nothing at all for 60 minutes on their UPN system (which itself appears to be going the way of the Dumont due to mismanagement and poor programming).

Tycho
04-22-2004, 07:35 PM
Enterprise's new episode was on at 8pm (I taped it during Smallville).

The new episode rocked, and that the crew did what they did, really surprised me.

I'm not sure I like the direction they're going with T'Pol - for a Vulcan anyway - but as an actress and as a sex-symbol on the show, it's a variety I like to see with Jolene Blalock. So to better state it: it's sexy, so I accept it.

Still, I can't believe the crew just all agreed to being pirates like that. Plus, why did the aquatics just release Archer if he was due at their council. Why not take him there?

At first I wondered if that was really Archer or if they created a clone to keep the war going.

I also wondered who the "Borg Queen" was. The costume had similarities to the trans-dimensional being. Now is she related to the Temperal Cold War dude?

I wonder what that's all about.

Great show tonight. They're on the dark side now, like Deep Space Nine (but not THAT good).

dr_evazan22
04-22-2004, 10:36 PM
I've missed the last couple of ep's because of its time being moved around (for Flyers hockey and time switch, then back again). But your right Tycho, that show was good last night. I was also surprised to see Archer back on the Ent so soon.

It'll be interesting to see where they go with T'pol's drug addiction.

JediTricks
04-23-2004, 11:32 PM
Enterprise's new episode was on at 8pm (I taped it during Smallville).Yeah, sorry about that, I knew 2 weeks ago but there was so little activity in this thread that I forgot to mention it here.


At first I wondered if that was really Archer or if they created a clone to keep the war going.I was wondering the same thing for a long while, to the point where it became really distracting.


I also wondered who the "Borg Queen" was. The costume had similarities to the trans-dimensional being. Now is she related to the Temperal Cold War dude? I wonder what that's all about.She is supposed to be one of the Trans-dimensionals. I didn't see the costume being very Borg-y, but her makeup looked very similar to the original alien villains on the series, the Suliban... turns out, 2 months ago I said the same thing about these time-shifters: http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showpost.php?p=309139&postcount=110


T'pol's addiction sub-plot came so far out of nowhere that I really disliked it, it was too heavy-handed and skirted the impact the message should have had on the main plot. Speaking of which, the main plot did nothing for me either way, it started with the mother of all Deux ex Machina moves and then pushed over to the philosophical difficulties in comprehending "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Finally, the Trek-tek geek in me found it annoying that the ship's breaches are supposed to be "sealed off by emergency bulkheads" yet exterior shots show tons of open decks as if they were sealed off by forcefields.


Oh, and on IMDB, Rick Berman is quoted as saying they're about to start a new Trek film, and it's a prequel. Nertz to that! :bored:

JediTricks
04-29-2004, 05:33 PM
Well, now we're making some headway. Last night's ep was heavy on the acting, light on the action, and for once, T'Pol actually had a top-drawer acting moment near the end of the show. Trip's behavior seemed a little over-the-top at times, but since this ep really seemed to be getting us out of this damn story arc and had some good moments, I thought it worked.

JediTricks
05-07-2004, 09:14 PM
Does anybody have ANYTHING to say about this episode? I didn't care for it much, some of it was interesting but ultimately they wrote everybody too thin and it just came off bland and rehashed of Voyager. For a half-second, I thought Archie was going to end up snaking the upgraded Enterprise, but alas no.

Dr Zoltar
05-08-2004, 08:30 PM
It was alright and explained why the Xendi (sp?) kept thinking there were more Federation ships in the expanse, but when I heard the premise, I rolled my eyes. Both DS9 and Voyager had a similar episodes. I can't believe they're recycling plots already.

So when do we get one where Archer gets thrown into an alternate universe and meets the evil Enterprise crew?

Tycho
05-08-2004, 09:51 PM
After the episode where they get something like water in their blood with weird properties that cause them to act like they're on alcohal and it causes Reed to sleep with Porthos in what becomes a large embarassment for Starfleet.

JediTricks
05-09-2004, 02:31 PM
Zoltar, I think Voyager visited the future-ship premise twice! :D As for Mirror-universe Ent, I've read serious suggestions that the whole show is taking place in the mirror universe, so there ya go.


Tycho, I don't think TNG's recycling of The Naked Time with The Naked Now is a very fair comparison, it's only that series' 2nd episode, Roddenberry really wanted to keep the Trek thing on course and appeal to those who remembered the original series. TNG was still finding its own voice. Besides, this is Ent's 3rd season, they should be past that awkward stage by now.

Tycho
05-10-2004, 11:51 AM
Off-Shoot Questions regarding Deep Space Nine...

I'm currently watching ALL of DS9 in order as I've finally completed my entire collection of every episode.

I'm in the midst of the 3rd Season.

1) What happened to Thomas Riker? This is mostly speculation. He was handed over to the Cardassians after exposing the Obsydian Order had been covertly amassing a warfleet which was not authorized by the Cardassian Central Command (the Civilian Council). I think Riker was a Starfleet Intelligence agent. There's no direct evidence to suggest he wasn't just a Maquis trying to make a name for himself to distinguish himself from Cmdr. William Riker, but Kira correctly pointed out that if he were a real terrorist, he'd never have concerned himself with intelligence reports and a target deep in Cardassian space. Plus his crew seemed to be all-human, not Bajoran (though I'm not positive on this) and it was enough to just lure the Cardassian military into the Orius Sector so they could see the Obsydian Order's ships for themselves (in a sort of Prime-Directive abiding "hint" to the Cardassians to clean up their own house - and real in the Obsydian Order if they were getting out of check). Eventually the Obsydian Order's fleet's purpose was revealed to be designed by Tain to attack the Founder's Homeworld and eliminate the leaders of the Dominion (in a combined assault with the Romulan Empire's Tel Shar). Since these are all the secret service agencies of their respective governments, it is not entirely impossible that Section 31 (the Federation's rogue covert ops group) wasn't involved in this somehow - afterall, it was Odo in a starfleet shuttlecraft that discovered the secret location of the Great Link, so perhaps Section 31 got the information to the Romulans / Cardassians to use them to strike the Dominion so the Federation would look good for not having "officially" attempted it. So was T.Riker S.F.I., or Section 31, or just the Maquis rebel he claimed to be? Riker is the same character make-up as Cmdr. William T. Riker, so I doubt he'd betray Starfleet no matter what he thought of the Cardassian treaty. Picard was more vested than Riker in that decision. Riker's main motivation, (any Riker) was advancement in Starfleet. So I doubt any version of Riker would jeopardise his ascension by being anything less than the model officer.


2) The U.S.S. Defiant was loaned a cloaking device by the Romulan government for use solely in the Gamma Quadrant. A Romulan officer was stationed aboard the Defiant to guard the cloaking device. She was captured with the rest of the crew on the ship's first mission to the Gamma Quadrant ("The Search"). And she was released with them. Where was she since then? The Defiant's cloak was accessable to Thomas Riker when he stole the ship. Obviously Kira's security codes could unlock the ship's cloaking technology just as well as the Romulan woman's. But where did that Romulan chick go?

Tycho
05-10-2004, 01:42 PM
Stuff about Enterprise being cancelled, and Star Trek's formula being found unappealing to audiences today

My response is long, but it's also about SEX so that should get your attention.

I want to talk with this thread's audience about what Star Trek is, and to what percentages of the populus. Smallville plays a factor.

First, I watch Smallville and tape Enterprise. WB moved Smallville against Enterprise, which was always on Wednesday nights at 8. Smallville used to be on Tuesdays, but WB moved it. That's the story. Since they began, I've always watched both. I ONLY watch 3 shows a week: Smallville, Enterprise, and The Shield (on F/X).

Second, and being very honest, I watch Smallville first and foremost for its sexuality. I'm younger than (I'll guess) half of you, and have what I'd guess are the normal struggles with a bachelor's sex life for someone in their 20's. Haven't met the right girl yet, but I am fascinated with Lana Lang, and the idea that someone out there is destined to be "the right one for me." So it's in that vein that I'm fascinated as to whether Lana will be the right one for Clark (and wish it were so, with no regards to Lois Lane or whoever might someday show up on the program). Of course I love Lex Luthor's descent into insanity and evil - that keeps the show going, as do Clark's discoveries about his destiny. But on an emotional level, I like these young characters that hold up to at least half the amount of sex-appeal for me as would a half-way decent porno. Smallville has that sensuality that draws you in. In the back of your mind, "those indecent thoughts you don't care to admit - are there."

Now sex and violence comprise the basic description of what you'd call "ACTION." While I find the Discovery Channel and the History Channel equally fascinating, "ACTION" is what draws in the viwer looking for escapism - the following along with a hero on an adventure doing something that you as a person can't do in the real world: "stop bullets, command a starship, save planet earth, etc."

Being a hero wins the desirability as the alpha-male (or alpha-female) for whose acts of violence bring about the rewards of sex (as they are naturally attractive for procreation in a very Darwinian sense).

Star Trek lacks the indulgences and girly-girls that drive the WB's "Dawson-style softcores." T'Pol a Vulcan, might be getting it on with Trip Tucker - an action prone hothead who's bound to play the part of a violent catalyst to some of the action given his great "I need revenge against the Xindi" arc, but she's too cool and "prudy" to attract the younger audience, or the broader range of young adult women viewers who identify with Jennifer Aniston's character-type on Friends. And guys wanting to spend the evening with their girlfriends WILL BE WATCHING FRIENDS, GILMORE GIRLS, ETC. or they'll be watching TV by themselves unless they are successful control freaks with power in their personal relationships.

(Anyone think I'm twisted yet? Or just honest? Ask yourself that question honestly, and observe your own friends and their relationships while you decide).

Hoshi Sato could have been the girly-girl on the show, but it's too late to write her character like that (or a new one most likely).

There is no young Alpha-Male that's not too "over-professional" as well. Trip is close, but he's not Tom Paris, and Tom Paris was not a central enough character (during Voyager).

To properly "Dawsonize" Star Trek, you'd need at least 4 Caucasian (white) lead characters, who are very young, very wishy-washy with their sexual relationships, yet passionate in their desires for some sort of love they haven't realized. The characters must be hetero-sexual, though I should not have needed to say that.

To keep with StarTrek's fair treatment of minorities, you need "studs" like Travis Mayweather's character, of varrying ethnicities, but you need to utilize them. Travis and Hoshi are a perfect example. Hoshi is not girly-girl enough, and Travis needs to be a bit more of a player (not chasing every girl, but at least getting after Hoshi, if they would be a likely matchup).

But will the "Friends" audience watch non-whites in romantic engagements? I already probably offended someone who thinks I sound like a racist. A life-long Trek fan myself, people should be more objective towards me and not so easily offended (as I hope I'm not offending anyone, but I cannot appease everyone's over-sensitivities that might be employed here). It is not my desire to offend anyone though, so I hope that is not the case. I grew up valuing diversity from the experience I picked up with Star Trek in actuality, and inter-racially date myself.

Now there are other issues with Star Trek's characters that lose the main audience:

Their professionalism. Even Archer and Kirk, the "newest at the job" captains that we've seen, are totaly professionals that have earned a rank and experience level far beyond the average viewer's. Unfortunately, the average viewer doesn't aspire to become a ship captain, or relate to doing much more professional acts than drinking and screwing, some sports viewing and "going out clubbing" put in between, with perhaps some fitness goals, recreational sports, etc.

The Captains, Scientists, Doctors, Engineers etc. don't seem to be like a lot of us.

Remember TNG's episode "Lower Decks?" That was brilliant. One of the characters was a gay bartender from Ten Forward. Talk about not your average heroic SF crew.

But once in a while, those young "b-characters" rose up to do something important:

Nog
Jake Sisko
Tom Paris
Harry Kim

Worf developed strongly in that direction but became a very mainstream character.


What a new show needs is a "Friends" element with Dawson-softcore, and 'normal characters.'

A recurring character could be the captain, but not the star of the show. Heck, you could do the show on the TItan, and have Frakes guest star as Captain William Troi, but not be the main character.

The "heroes" should be living their lives out trying to find mates, fall in love, and seek adventure and chances to "be the hero." They could make mistakes, be reprimanded by the Captain, but not be candidates for rising in ranks to some grand promotion.

Chief O'Brien gave us some glimpse into how a normal bloke's life worked into the StarTrek universe. But he wasn't young enough, and our characters shouldn't be married yet.

The science and discovery etc. has been played up for 5 shows and is finally becoming an old formula that's failing.

Starfleet Academy might work for my formula, but what about enlisted folks who aren't 4.0 students and don't want to be, or can't imagine being that competative like Wesley Crusher? Where's the appeal for them?

Mainstream America is made up of 80% alcohalics who dream of the day they can have a hot vacation with a lover and be free of their credit card bills. 99% of them do not go to Harvard (Starfleet Academy) and won't ascend above mid-level management or less Chief Petty Officer, Sergeant, or something.

There are still plenty of political and moral stories that can be told in the Star Trek universe about drinking, sex, and mediocrity. That's where the audience is, so that's where you can take the show. Eventually characters of the current "Microsoft Employee of the Month's" caliber can emerge, as these characters the populace have taken a fond liking to, evolve and decide they want to make themselves into an officer, or do something about their bad duty record, or find a way to make a difference out of StarFleet if they can never be a commander.

It's too bad that the Western World has low standards like this, but historically, the whole world is like that - people just trying to get by. Other countries based on other philosophies and various religions all have plenty of Indians and only handfuls of chiefs. That's life. Let Star Trek mimick it a bit, and see where that takes the show and its ratings.
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JediTricks
05-10-2004, 06:09 PM
I think Riker was a Starfleet Intelligence agent. There's no direct evidence to suggest he wasn't just a Maquis trying to make a name for himself to distinguish himself from Cmdr. William Riker, but Kira correctly pointed out that if he were a real terrorist, he'd never have concerned himself with intelligence reports and a target deep in Cardassian space.You're reading way too much into things, Kira simply meant he was a POOR terrorist, not a fake one. We'll likely never know what happened to Tom Riker, but expect him to have been interrogated and thrown in a prison camp, probably killed while trying to escape the Dominion once they came to Cardassia.

The Romulan chick was written out of the show, I guess the Romulans were busy dealing with the fall of the Tal Shiar and recalled her, letting the Defiant keep its cloak until it was destroyed by the Breen.


Tycho, I don't even want to know what is wrong with you in that 2nd post. But I will state that every aspect of the Star Trek franchise beyond the Animated Series has done well without falling into this idiotic Dawsons Creek/90210 kiddie-soap niche until Enterprise (which would be doing adequately if not for throwing ridiculous amounts of money into every episode, a sign of bad helming).

"I already probably offended someone who thinks I sound like a racist."
- No, I think you sound like an idiot in that post, these are the VOYAGES of the starship Enterprise, their love lives are hardly consequential to the stories being told, these are military men and women in the future on a ship of exploration, as Short Round once said, "no time for love, Doctor Jones!"

I don't think you really get the point of Kirk's TOS and likely neither does Rick Berman or Paramount, it's not that he was a professional, he was a military captain using gunboat diplomacy while exploring the galaxy - Kirk's actions are not perfect, he is deeply flawed, reactionary, and requires intense assistance from his closest confidants. Horatio Hornblower in space, he needs his close friends to help him make the dangerous, but potentially vital maneuvers. Picard, meanwhile, is an experienced captain in a fleet that's now more dedicated to traditional diplomacy and scientific discovery, and he keeps everything internalized relying less on his personality foibles (at least, on the surface) than on tried and true leadership skills and experience.

"Unfortunately, the average viewer doesn't aspire to become a ship captain... The Captains, Scientists, Doctors, Engineers etc. don't seem to be like a lot of us."
- Once again, I think you miss the point of Star Trek. At its core, Trek suggests that there are larger-than-life adventures awaiting humanity - this is different from myths of the past where life was good before our time - and who doesn't want exciting adventures whether they are captains or bounty hunters or Jedi knights? These adventures come while exploring the possibilities of the future, of seeking knowledge, of trying to better ourselves and be able to apply that knowledge for the betterment of us all - the adventures come to test our heroes, to challenge them because obsticles are vital to how we live our lives and how myths are created. Hercules wouldn't be very interesting if he just was a strong guy who had nothing happen, Luke wouldn't be a hero if he just lived his whole life farming moisture, Kirk wouldn't be a hero if he didn't sacrifice his ship and career (and unintentionally his son) to save his friend's soul.


"Remember TNG's episode "Lower Decks?" That was brilliant. One of the characters was a gay bartender from Ten Forward. Talk about not your average heroic SF crew."
- First off, how did you know he was gay? I don't remember him swooning over that goofy Vulcan ensign or Riker Jr. Second, this one shot episode, they did nothing but complain and worry and a lot of the stuff that we've been seeing on 'ST:Enterprise', until that Bajoran girl went on the dangerous mission, they did nothing particularly interesting that I can remember -- certainly not that I'd want to see every week.


" What a new show needs is a "Friends" element with Dawson-softcore, and 'normal characters.'"
- How about a variety show in space? Or the tales of the guy who works the airlock on deck ten? You sound so much like studio execs it's scary, nobody really wants a Prime Time Soap Opera-themed Star Trek, it's just easy to look at the numbers that The OC and its ilk are getting and get hungry for those ratings. But it doesn't actually make good television, they've tried it with non-Trek sci-fi a few times before and it ends up falling apart because there's nothing to make the audience want to stay. The futuristic sci fi setting has nearly infinite storytelling possibility, but locking it into these shallow puppy-love faux-emotion stories is a waste of the potential, and the sci-fi settings are asking too much for those who JUST want those airheaded surface-level-only relationship shows. And like I said before, who has time for all this romantic BS when you may be facing death on a harsh planet, or separated from your romantic interest when they're transferred off the ship? You could pull off 1 or 2 small sub-plots once in a while to suggest this, but if you go beyond that it not only rings false, but it's just blatant pandering and wasting the audience's time since they could just as easily go to half a dozen other prime time soap operas that don't require them to figure out these sci-fi story mechanics.



Mainstream America is made up of 80% alcohalics who dream of the day they can have a hot vacation with a lover and be free of their credit card bills. 99% of them do not go to Harvard (Starfleet Academy) and won't ascend above mid-level management or less Chief Petty Officer, Sergeant, or something.

There are still plenty of political and moral stories that can be told in the Star Trek universe about drinking, sex, and mediocrity. That's where the audience is, so that's where you can take the show.Geez, that's not insulting to the audience at all! :rolleyes: Suggesting that the average viewer wants pap because that's what their life actually is not only is insulting, but it's been historically proven to be totally inaccurate - people don't want story after story where Conan the Barbarian rows an oar all day and then goes home and has an argument with Valeria, causing him to go get drunk and try to sleep with her sister only to throw up on her lawn and fall asleep on his own doorstep.


" It's too bad that the Western World has low standards like this"
- What does that mean? An enormous margin of Western entertainment - epic poetry, plays, TV, what have you - is about larger-than-life characters facing larger-than-life obsticles, whether they be Cylops, Klingon, or the emotional hardships of trying to live outside ones own class. Even in the last few generations, where entertainment has tried to present the mundane more often, it comes with larger-than-life emotional issues, unrealistic surprises, and situational tampering -- Survivor wouldn't be a ratings champ if these people weren't put into outlandish situations and not given a reason to do these things.

Here's what I'm saying, Voyager had a larger number of "regular daily life" interplay sub-plots because there was little else to show and while sometimes it was interesting, a lot of the time it was just mundane and boring, and Voyager was strapped for ratings a lot of the time and is widely considered the worst series in the franchise.

Tycho
05-10-2004, 07:06 PM
I hope Thomas Riker wasn't killed. As little as we saw of him, I thought he was an interesting character. And while my theory of him being S.F.I. is a longshot, the very reason T. Riker is interesting to me is because there also isn't enough information about him to negate that as another possible theory.

Unfortunately, the Romulan chick didn't seem to be "written out of the show," but more likely forgotten. The fall of the Tal Shiar? Do they really fall or is it just their secret fleet is destroyed during this 3rd Season ("The Die Is Cast")


Anyway, on to "Enterprise"....

Throwing ridiculous amonts of money into every show? Are they over-spending what previous series did? They are doing this on effects, right? To draw in more viewers with cool things like the underwater base, and the Xindi Aquatics, right? It should be working to keep old fans around, as the effects and action sequences are great, and the violence appropriately stimulating for those who get off on yelling out loud whenever Archer blows something up. I'm not sure cutting their budget would be a good idea, as now people could leave the show because they'd be accustomed to a higher production quality as it pertains to effects.

Now I totally agree about "these are the voyages of the starship Enterprise" comment, but it has been repeatedly done before (see most other Star Treks). If the show's ratings are failing that means 2 things:

a) the hardcore fans that used to watch the other Trek shows and sustained them are no longer watching

b) new fans are not being hooked in to watching.


"A" can have all kinds of reasons attached to it, including arguments about ruining continuity, but that shouldn't actually matter if the series as a whole deals with time distortions in a temperal cold war. Reasons for problem "a" could also be that the old fans are board of more Trek, it's saturated, or they are just simply not watching TV period. Is the first TOS fan generation dying off? I don't think most are that old yet. But didn't they sustain Deep Space Nine? So did Voyager lose them? Do they watch anything any more? What?

"B" can have several reasons too - some of which I was getting to. Either we can assume that younger people are NOT WATCHING ANY TV, (versus video games, other activities, etc) or they are watching relationship shows and so forth. The younger generations have had more affluence provided for them, versus working for it (like families that worked hard to earn their first color TV and then started watching programs like the original Star Trek), so they are not aspiring to be these heroic captain characters, doctors, etc. and thus relate more to the "mediocrat shows."



NOW I AM NOT SAYING STAR TREK's FORMULA CAN'T WORK AND GET BACK TO IT'S ORIGINAL PREMISE - we just need to start over with a new audience to 'trick them' into going there. Like I said, the mediocrat characters can grow and eventually aspire to become somebody admirable like the typical Star Trek heroes.

Meanwhile, mediocrats can be corpsmen sent down with an Away Team by order of the CMO.

They can be lab assistants on the staffs of scientists attached to the ship.

They can be "yeomen."

BTW, I read somewhere that the bartender in lowerdecks was supposed to be a homosexual character. Nothing in the episode supports that or contradicts that. It might have been written by someone with an agenda.

But meanwhile, we give the new audience the Dawsonesque they think they want, then get them into our characters, their relationships, then take them beyond that, back to Trek's roots and commentary on the human condition.

I do "get Star Trek." The problem is it's gotten harder to sell Star Trek.

Tycho
05-10-2004, 09:21 PM
I DID IT! - I created the new crew of "Dawson's Enterprise"


This idea comes out of a thread where we're discussing the fact that StarTrek is supposedly losing an audience. And either people aren't watching TV, or they are watching something else? Teenage romantic softcore? Shows where characters are not heroic captains or highly educated professionals, but losers like the majority of the audience? This will then be the fresh Star Trek for all of them!

This story takes place in the modern era, aboard the USS Titan...


First let's create our eight or nine core cast members and the story-bible...


Don Masters (22 years old) is a Federation Scientist's personal assistant. A school drop-out, he left an overbearing father who was tired of his underachievement, and set out to follow his would-be girlfriend into space. He basically runs errands and does data entry for this non-Starfleet professor (Riggs, a Denobulan). He's excited when he gets to go on an Away Mission once in a while, but he convinvced the alien to hire him for the job because the scientist was not a very good judge of human character, and Masters might have falsified his resume a bit. He has nothing to his name, and no place to call home on earth unless he returns to live with his father. His hoped-for-love-interest wants something more.

Alicia Wells (20) is a college student doing an internship aboard the science vessel. She thought it would be adventurous to go into space. She's studying to become a vocational nurse, and works for the Senior Medical Officer (Dr. Carrie Dobbs, a Starfleet officer). Alicia thought about becoming a doctor once, but doesn't think she can make it through medical school. Once she becomes a nurse, she thinks it would be cool to serve on a space-station, but eventually she wants to return to earth to care for her grandparents when they can no longer take care of themselves. She likes Don as a distraction, but finds herself secretly more attracted to men who've established themselves as career professionals.

Max Conklin (26) is the ship's chef's assistant. He had been evacuated out of the Federation-Cardassian demilitarized zone, his family dead or long separated. Seeing no reason to go back to earth, he stayed on board starship after starship, not quite sure if he'll do anything else with his life. He cleans up the crew messhall and does the dishes, occasionally learning how to prepare a few better dishes himself from the ship's chef, Marcus Lavigone, a French-Italian.

Elizabeth Bentley (23) is an enlisted Starfleet Yeoman. She's a personal assistant to Captain Troi and secretly yearns for him even though he's married to the ship's Betazoid counselor. Elizabeth joined Starfleet because that's what her friends all did after highschool. They thought they'd meet boys, but were soon all separated from each other and assigned to different ships, one of them killed during the Dominion Wars. Elizabeth doesn't know what she wants to do with her life and contemplates quitting Starfleet after her tour of duty is over, but the ship may be long in returning to Federation space, as it's been assigned to the Romulan negotiations.

Barry Cutler (24), African-American, is kind of a rogue. He didn't fit in well growing up on earth and got caught up in small-time crime just for the thrills of it. With nothing fond to look back on, he left his mother and joined a frontier colony near Romulan space. The colony was wiped out by Jem'Hadar, but then later retaken by Reman troops fighting for the Empire. Cutler hid during the fighting, but is frustrated by his former cowardice which now causes him to thrill seek and overcompensate his bravado. Captain Troi found him and took a liking to him and invited him to come along on his mission to Romulus because Cutler had observed Reman troop movements for months while he remained in hiding at the site of the former colony. Meanwhile, aboard the Titan, Cutler is always struggling to find something to do until he's useful to the captain in some way.

Lt. J.G. Pallys Korris (25), an "Asian" Bajoran, is a Starfleet military officer. She doesn't fit in well with her fellow Starfleet Officers because she'd fomerly been a terrorist as a teenager, and she was suspected of having Maquis sympathies during the Border Wars. She feels more comfortable hanging out with our regular cast of characters during their downtime, than with any Starfleet.

Davo Brokan (24) is a Bajoran male who was also a Bajoran terrorist when he was a teenager. He tends the hydroponics bay and is only onboard the Titan because Korris is. She was almost a big sister to him during the Occupation, however, they were not related and love blossomed, though Korris will act the big sister part from time to time, her uniform giving her some authority for certain. But Brokan is very hot-headed and a wildcard to be sure. Captain Troi doesn't like him that much and thinks he's being a bad influence on Korris, who Troi is trying to turn into a model officer.

Ed Brody (19) is a shy loner. He is the son of the ship's science officer, Trevor Brody. He spends most of his time in his quarters where he pretends to be other people, other alien species, in annonymous subspace chats. He tries his best to avoid people on the ship a lot, but he's close to his parents, both who live on board. (Melissa Brody is the mother, a mathmetician and musician who sometimes helps her husband work). Ed is constantly making stuff up and it could wind up getting him and his ship in trouble. He likes to pretend he's a Ferengi captain who can get things.


The ship is to assist the Romulans with planetary surveys to assess and repair the damage done to Romulan worlds during the Dominion Wars.

The Romulan political situation is jumpy, the military divided, and the Reman situation is non-pacified, but Captain Troi and his wife are there to work on that.

The command crew are not the main characters. Instead we will focus on our crew of losers.

They like to drink a lot.

Most of them experiment with illegal drugs.

They don't care too much about their jobs, or they are unsure they can succeed at what they are doing.

They watch a lot of spectator sports or have opinions about Captain Troi's policies or other current events that are erroneous and which they obviously know nothing about.

They are largely motivated to "get it on with one another," and then run away somewhere and start over doing something - they don't know.

Slowly, they'll have opportunities to contribute to the ship and develop a sense of responsibility and self-worth, eventually redeeming themselves by finding illumination about the human condition and making something out of their lives, choosing career paths, achieving goals.

They're never going to save the earth or the entire alpha quadrant, but just escaping mediocrity will become the monumental achievement of their lives.

Dr Zoltar
05-11-2004, 01:43 PM
Tycho, please tell me this is a joke. You can't seriously think anyone else other than teens would watch a show like that.


I actually expect a good portion of the crew to be older, since humans are living in good health to be over 100 with the medical advances of the future. Why have so many 20-somethings when you can have a 40 or 50 year old in good health who has more knowledge?

I for one don't want to watch "Dawson's Creek" in space...

Tycho
05-11-2004, 07:13 PM
1) Dr. Zoltar, your age please? (I'm almost into my 30's myself just FYI)

2) Teens watch a lot of TV. It's a huge market that drives a lot of primetime shows:

Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Angel
Dawson's Creek
Beverly Hills 90210
Gillmore Girls
Smallville
Melrose Place
Roswell
Dark Angel
Charmed
Friends
The Real World

etc. etc. etc. Not all these shows are still on the air, but some had full successful runs, and some are still on the air today - or syndicated.

The only one above I ever watched (and regularly follow) is Smallville.

THE POINT IS THE SHOWS GENERATED A LOT OF MONEY.

That's what business is about - there's some Rule of Acquisition that says so.

The formula was based on teenage listlessness basically, and it captivated a young adult audience of both sexes.



This audience doesn't want to watch older adults. Furthermore, the basic "I've done nothing with my life" adult might be tired of the Starfleet "over-achiever type" (Jean-Luc Picard, captain of the Starfleet Academy Field and Track Team, Dr. Bashir, 2nd in his class, almost-Pro Tennis Player, etc.)

They relate to everyday losers like themselves.

So what if we take some, put them on a starship, and let them slowly make something of their lives ("Dawson-Style") while put in an interesting setting (Romulan space for example).


There are adult characters like Captain Troi (Riker) (age 40 approximately) and older characters like the chef that Max Conklin apprentices to. Mr. Brody is the science officer old enough to have a 19 year old son (Ed, one of our main cast), so they are around.

Now if we have the "real adults" be mediocrats, the show will feel hopeless. What if the older characters were unemployed bums drifting from job to job in the 24th century - folks whose lives fell apart during the Dominion Wars? There's little inspiration in getting new viewers hooked onto that.

Younger people can have their dreams and discover them, then set out to achieve them so they won't be Gen-X'rs and Mediocrats any longer. B-characters that recurr can be adults that go through this, while folks like Captain Troi can be examples of success stories (as Riker has always been). But during the height of TNG on the 1701-D under Picard's command, THERE WAS SOMEBODY WHO'S JOB IT WAS TO CLEAN THE BATHROOMS.

Here in the start of the 21st Century, we have audiences currently only suited to work retail jobs, tend bar, or clean the bathrooms. Wal-Mart's the largest U.S. employer. And the people drink, use drugs, have children before they can afford them, with no plans, shotgun weddings, and a 51 % divorce rate in the U.S., and a 71% divorce rate in my homestate of California.

Many aren't doing more with their lives because they don't want to even imagine someone:

physically fit
combat trained
mechanically trained
science schooled
command instructed
and educated and gifted enough to pass an entrance exam into THE MOST prostegious school in the 24th Century (SF Academy)

It would be very uplifting and positively influential upon them to watch other losers (like the cast of Friends) grow up and make something out of their lives, and live like the 24th Century characters we all admire in the other shows.

We all can write up another cast of crewmembers who are all:

valedictorians
pro athletes
some sort of alien warrior or android with special abilities
psychic or something
diplomatic geniouses that triumph against the greatest odds


We've seen that in 5 shows - the later ones eventually losing viewers to shows with Mediocrats like those on Friends, Gillmore Girls - heck, Clark Kent on Smallville is not yet Superman - and he still hasn't figured out what to do with his life. The show is about his growth getting there.


A StarTrek about a 40-50 something valedictorian who's also an engineer, scientist, diplomat, command officer, and some kind of politician in their spare time does not command the audience it used to. That's the facts.


To not live in denial, we have to accept the demographics the way they fall, as things change, and stay a part of the community - which doesn't mean we have to lose what we hold dear, but rather that we may have to compromise a bit to be all-inclusive of everyone that's part of our society.

If we're careful, we can get them all aboard the train, and then take everyone where we want them to go.

dr_evazan22
05-11-2004, 10:57 PM
I'm in my early to mid 30's and I agree with my esteemed colleague Dr Zoltar. I would not watch Dawson's Enterprise. I don't (or didn't) watch the majority of the shows you had listed. I don't watch anything on the WB, and only Enterprise on UPN. Just because a very specific demographic watches some show, that doesn't make it good. It does let advertisers zero in on a target audience, which I think would only be appealing to advertisers..

And speaking of overachievers like Picard and such, you left out the biggest: That hologram doctor.

Tycho
05-12-2004, 02:17 AM
Well, no matter how hard we work, none of us will ever become a hologram...


Anyway, those who would watch "Dawson's Enterprise" please chime in.

Those who would not: how do you rekindle the flame of Star Trek?

How do you do a fresh show?

Time Frame? 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th Century? Later than that?

Setting: a ship, SF Academy, a space station, a colony, SF Headquarters?

Characters?: Losers, professional officers, lower deck officers, aliens, humans?

Stimulus to watch recurring story devices: romance? a war? scientific tech stuff? crime?* Young people?

Audience to attract: Male or female? Can it be both? How proportionately? Age range? Viewer retention? (will older ones die, be too busy, etc? Can younger ones be lured to the franchise to become new lifelong fans?)


These are the questions Star Trek has to answer. BTW, doing Enterprise, a prequel, was a brilliant move actually. That was one route we all would have suggested had it not already been implimented in the current show anyway.


*I'd love a show about a crew of 24th Century criminals that live in the modern Trek universe and learn Gene Roddenberry's lessons of enlightenment quite by accident.

JediTricks
05-12-2004, 09:15 PM
I hope Thomas Riker wasn't killed. As little as we saw of him, I thought he was an interesting character. And while my theory of him being S.F.I. is a longshot, the very reason T. Riker is interesting to me is because there also isn't enough information about him to negate that as another possible theory.Well, according to official Trek timelines, Tom Riker was everything we saw on screen in that ep and nothing more, he was Maquis and he was sentenced to prison on Cardassia.

I thought he had potential to be interesting, but what they did with him on DS9 didn't work for me at all.


Unfortunately, the Romulan chick didn't seem to be "written out of the show," but more likely forgotten. The fall of the Tal Shiar? Do they really fall or is it just their secret fleet is destroyed during this 3rd Season ("The Die Is Cast")Forgotten where? We last saw her on the station. They had no use for her, the character didn't click and was sent away forever. I believe the Tal Shiar put every resource they had into the failed assault on the Founders, and the reason for the Dominion ambush was specifically to wipe out the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order... which they did.



Throwing ridiculous amonts of money into every show? Are they over-spending what previous series did? They are doing this on effects, right? To draw in more viewers with cool things like the underwater base, and the Xindi Aquatics, right? It should be working to keep old fans around, as the effects and action sequences are great, and the violence appropriately stimulating for those who get off on yelling out loud whenever Archer blows something up. I'm not sure cutting their budget would be a good idea, as now people could leave the show because they'd be accustomed to a higher production quality as it pertains to effects.Yeah, they throw away gobs of money on visual effects, overbuilt sets, a few other areas IIRC, and it pretty much has failed to attract a major audience and HOLD its attention. Old fans won't care, previous Treks have always done fine with limited budgets because those limitations forced creativity (this wouldn't be the case with Voyager since they seemed to have a bloated fx budget as well). The only way to save the show really is to make it cheaper to produce, Paramount doesn't want to spend 6 million or however much it is per ep, they'd rather spend 1 mil and if that means recycling some fx and lessening the quality of certain things to keep the show on the air, I say so be it.


The reason fans aren't flocking to the show is because of its similarities to Voyager, and that stems from poor helming, writing and producing. The stories are often recycled and there's very little energy in the way they're presented, the show doesn't feel fresh or adventurous and certainly not a prequel to the real Star Trek, so it's no surprise that people aren't enjoying it as much. Most TOS fans don't seem even remotely interested in the show, and with the last 2 Trek films only furthering to tarnish the general public's opinion of the franchise, the only viewers are the post-TNG crowd who have been disappearing ever since Voyager hit airwaves. Meanwhile, Enterprise's producers see there's something seriously wrong and flail about making changes to anything they can but none work because the producers never really saw what was wrong in the first place - the way they changed the themesong is a perfect example of that.

I am pretty confident that the audience age is unimportant, the key audience demographic here is males 16 to 49, an easy audience to catch and generally Trek steals the show there with that audience when it works - and doesn't when the show fails to work. Maybe TNG and DS9 (and shows like Babylon 5) raised expectations too high for Voyager and now Enterprise, but I think it's more about the quality, the "heart" of those shows just not really meeting the required Trek quality.

As for new audiences, Paramount and the show's producers think the same way you seem to be thinking, that audiences are dumb now and want sex and mindless violence, flashy effects and quick cuts to ensure their MTV-created attention spans don't flip channels -- but I think the chief problem with this (and you'll notice that a lot of shows like that lately get cancelled very quickly) is that they use this corporate mindset that puts the key audience into this small, insulting box; an audience can subconciously feel when they're being disrespected week after week, and they're turned off by that. The producers have put so much stock in the perception that the Trek franchise is nigh-bulletproof that they thought they COULD take risks like that because no matter what they did, they could always coast on the franchise power.


NOW I AM NOT SAYING STAR TREK's FORMULA CAN'T WORK AND GET BACK TO IT'S ORIGINAL PREMISE - we just need to start over with a new audience to 'trick them' into going there. Like I said, the mediocrat characters can grow and eventually aspire to become somebody admirable like the typical Star Trek heroes.You generally can't trick an audience into loyalty, you can trick them into juicing the ratings temporarily in order to jack up ad revenues, but it doesn't take long for the audience to realize they might be smelling Filet Mignon but they're being fed McDonalds. If you have a poor foundation, you can almost never build something big on top of that that will last.



But meanwhile, we give the new audience the Dawsonesque they think they want, then get them into our characters, their relationships, then take them beyond that, back to Trek's roots and commentary on the human condition.YOU think they want that, corporate studio mentality sees something popular and says "ooh, me too!" without stopping to respect the audience or even just look at the big picture. CSI is the number one show right now, so does that mean Paramount is going to do "Star Trek: Crime Scene Investigations"? Captain Jack Palmer and his oddball crew of misfits fly around the Federation in their Danube-class runabouts solving crimes using scientific method while applying their own brand of Starfleet law? (btw, nothing personal Navy NCIS fans, but if the shoe fits and all... ;)) Or how about Survivor United Federation of Planets? Law & Order: SROC - Starfleet Rules of Conduct?


And BTW, Trek characters really don't need that much background to their character bibles, let the writers come up with that stuff, go with a few snippets here and there and follow some sort of predetermined character stereotype.



You can't seriously think anyone else other than teens would watch a show like that.Actually, they've tried it, even once on MTV, testing found that nobody will watch that sort of thing - probably because the sci-fi setting is needlessly high-concept for audiences who could just as easily relate to the same stuff set in the here and now.



Teens watch a lot of TV. It's a huge market that drives a lot of primetime shows:

Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Dawson's Creek, Beverly Hills 90210, Gillmore Girls, Smallville, Melrose Place, Roswell, Dark Angel, Charmed, Friends, The Real WorldLet's see...
Buffy - cancelled, taken to other network, re-cancelled
Angel - cancelled
Dawson's Creek - no idea
90210 - what is this, 10 years ago?
Gilmore Girls - you've got the wrong audience actually, I've heard this is big with the late 20s/early 30s set
Melrose place - what is this, 9 years ago?
Roswell - quickly cancelled
Dark Angel - started strong, lost its footing, cancelled after 2 seasons
Charmed - no idea how this stays on the air
Friends - general audience show, biggest show on the air where audience was 16 to 49 year olds
Real World - nobody watches this anymore


This audience doesn't want to watch older adults.Good point then bringing up MELROSE PLACE! You just broke your own point there, Melrose Place was insanely popular with the teen girl set, and nobody on that show was a teen - the show worked because it was the premiere over-the-top prime-time soap opera of its day, it was the '90s' Dallas, Dynasty, etc.. Oh, and I'll point out that the biggest moneymaker there, Friends, was about people in their mid 20s and ran until their mid 30s, so that disproves your rule once again.


Furthermore, the basic "I've done nothing with my life" adult might be tired of the Starfleet "over-achiever type" (Jean-Luc Picard...
Once again, where are you getting this stuff? Star Trek: First Contact is considered by many fans to be second only to Wrath of Khan and that movie lives and breathes Captain Picard.

I won't even quote the rest of that post of yours suffice to say that I'm shocked at your view of your fellow man and feel it's severely clouding your judgement - yet I would not be surprised to learn Paramount's people think the same insulting way about their audience. Following perceptions built on focus groups and demographics generally just leads to whitewashed idiotic garbage like NBC's "Coupling". Star Trek doesn't need to pander to a specific audience, when Trek works best it's reaching a little bit of everybody, it's exciting their minds to imagine brave new worlds that would enjoy picturing themselves in no matter their gender, race, age, social status, whatever - TOS and TNG touched the lives of so many peoples just by being true to certain visions of promising and exciting futures.

Dr Zoltar
05-13-2004, 03:24 PM
Tycho, I am 32 yrs.


Last night's Enterprise was pretty good. Had more direction than some of the other episodes. You learn more about the Xindi and the extinct 6th race.

Don't know how I feel about Hoshi being kidnapped (I didn't know that Xindi had transporter tech) or how the Reptilians just automatically off screen took control of the weapon. I'm willing to see the next two episodes to see where this is going.

dr_evazan22
05-13-2004, 04:08 PM
What's up with Hoshi getting kidnapped?

A buddy at work and I have a couple of theories about the extinct avians...

- They're not extinct, and will reappear to help the humans
- They truly are extinct, but evidence will be found implicating the guardians in their demise.

Dr Zoltar
05-14-2004, 12:40 PM
A buddy at work and I have a couple of theories about the extinct avians...

- They're not extinct, and will reappear to help the humans
- They truly are extinct, but evidence will be found implicating the guardians in their demise.
Excellent theories! I vote for the 2nd one. Only because it's cheaper for the show to not have to create a 6th Xindi alien race -- special effects cost and all that.

Beast
05-20-2004, 05:41 PM
Well, figured I'd pass this on. Didn't want to start a new thread for it though, so here you go. Star Trek: Enterprise has indeed been renewed for a 4th season after all. Here's the news from The Digital Bits.

Some interesting news today. First up, though it's not particularly DVD related it's good news for Paramount's Star Trek franchise. UPN, at their upfronts press conference this morning in New York, officially announced that Star Trek: Enterprise will be renewed for a fourth season and will appear on Friday night this fall. UPN programming executive Dawn Ostroff told the audience of television and advertising executives at UPN's upfront presentation that Enterprise is an established franchise with a loyal audience and that the level of mail seeking renewal gives her every reason to believe that the audience will follow Enterprise to the new time and night. Here's the except from UPN's press release:

"STAR TREK: ENTERPRISE (Friday, 9:00-10:00 PM), the latest in the ďStar TrekĒ franchise, is now entering its fourth season. A prequel to the original ďStar TrekĒ series, STAR TREK: ENTERPRISE takes place during the early pioneering days of deep space exploration when interstellar travel is in its infancy and 100 years before Capt. James T. Kirk takes the helm of the famous starship. As the season opened, a mysterious and deadly race of aliens called the Xindi had attacked Earth, killing millions of people. Having discovered that their next planned attack will completely destroy Earth, Capt. Jonathan Archer (Scott Bakula) and the crew set out on a gripping new mission to track down and put an end to these enemy aliens. With the fate of the planet in their hands, the crew faced strange new life forms, dangerous unexplored regions of space and difficult moral questions. In addition to being more action packed with spectacular special effects, this new season will take STAR TREK: ENTERPRISE into further uncharted territory, while advancing last season's critically acclaimed storylines, including Vulcan Sub Commander T'Pol's (Jolene Blalock) blossoming relationship with Chief Engineer Charles ďTripĒ Tucker III (Connor Trinneer) and mysterious twists in the familiar timeline. The series also stars John Billingsley as Dr. Phlox, Dominic Keating as Lt. Malcolm Reed, Anthony Montgomery as Ensign Travis Mayweather and Linda Park as Ensign Hoshi Sato. Rick Berman and Brannon Braga are creators/executive producers. STAR TREK: ENTERPRISE is a production of Paramount Network Television."
MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Tycho
05-20-2004, 05:58 PM
The good news is this:

I have missed the last 2 episodes of Enterprise, do to taping Smallville. I can catch last night's on Sunday's re-runs, but the week prior, whenever something had happened to Hoshi (judging by your vague posts) I completely missed since I'd just gotten home from a vacation to Seattle.

Now I can TAPE Enterprise on Friday nights and never miss it's first run, and it no longer comes down to a choice between Enterprise and Smallville.


The bad news is this:

Friday nights are the close-to-death-range for TV shows anyway. People go out on Friday nights, especially single adults.

Sure we can tape the show. I will. But, advertisers don't like that since we fast-forward through commercials.

If we fast-forward, we don't watch them, hence sponsors don't want to pay a lot to advertise on Friday night tv spots right?

Star Trek will lose its special-effects budget that's been so high (I think) and could wind up getting cancelled anyway (after a 4th season, or when??? Will Enterprise go 7 seasons even? There's another question).


Competing shows that I think are on Friday nights are:

Reba - as I recall a girlfriend always having to stay home until that show was over (I didn't want to arrive early and watch it with her if I could avoid it)

CSI - while waiting to go out with friends, they had to watch an episode on a Friday night I believe. Not sure, but I think that's when new shows air.

CSI could be tough competition for Enterprise if true. Reba fans won't be as interested (well when you compare Reba fans to Smallville fans now).


Ah well. I hope the new time and new night is widely advertised before I miss any of next season's shows.

vulcantouch
05-20-2004, 11:43 PM
. . . crossed w/ds9's "children of time", and liked it ok this time too :crazed: if i were travis i'd demand a heroic death a la hayes; after all it's not like he's figured at All in the rest of this season :rolleyes: is one or more of them guardians played by salome "founder" jens? idunno, but know who'd be great casting in the role the still-unseen chef, if they ever do show him? andy "garak" robinson; think of it, even 200 years b4ds9 he was spyin on the feds :D

tych: "People go out on Friday nights, especially single adults"
-feh, friday nite is Date Nite so in moving Ent there i think upn knows it needn't worry about losing many Trekkies :crazed:

"where did that Romulan chick go?"
-dunno but i think stationing senator cretak on ds9 ("shadows & symbols", 'images in the sand" and "inter arma" ) was in part an attempt to re-introduce that dropped element :)

jt: "the Tal Shiar put every resource they had into the failed assault"
-not quite, as it's otherwise unlikely that only 3 years later there'd be enough of a shiar left for koval to chair ("inter arma" ) ;)
vt

Tycho
05-21-2004, 02:51 AM
I just watched that first battle between the Alpha Quadrant and the Dominion.

A Founder was impersonating the Romulan Colonel entrusted with command of the Tal Shiar forces.

Tain originated the plan, but when the Founders learned of it, they infiltrated the Tal Shiar and instigated the Cardassian-Romulan alliance at the time to wipe out both threats.

The changling said, "This leaves only the Federation and the Klingons to deal with."

The Tal Shiar and Obsydian Order were regarded as extreme threats by the Dominion. They operated clandestinely to subvert their own respective governments and take pre-emptive strikes.

If the Dominion ever considered Starfleet Intelligence a threat, they also used the occasion to test what the SFI would do in light of this - which was sit back and watch to see if Romulus and Cardassia would do the dirty work to eliminate the Dominion threat for the Federation.

Remember, Section 31 was not a part of Starfleet. It was a Federation organization. The Dominion may not have been aware of it. But Section 31 had infiltrated the SFI for certain.

The Klingon Intelligence Agency had played a minor role in everything. They weren't too covert.

They tried to mix it up with the Romulans who came to the station to get Sisko's data in exchange for the cloaking device on the Defiant, however, the Romulans' real intent was to blow the station up and collapse the wormhole, eliminating the Dominion's ability to send ships into the Alpha Quadrant.

It's funny, but the Dominion was less of a threat to start out with:

1) They originally detained Sisko and sent warning to not cross into the Gamma Quadrant. Who knows if the Alpha races had agreed, if this would have worked?

2) Cardassian scientists trying to establish a communications array were infiltrated by the Obsydian Order who wanted to use a rogue commet to get sucked into the wormhole, destroying it.

3) When that failed, the Romulans tried to destroy it by blowing up the station with a warbird attack, but Chief O'Brien went forward in time and back again to stop it.

4) Tain had organized the Obsydian Order's fleet (that Tom Riker had uncovered the existance of - when I think that Tom was working for the SFI and not just a Maquis annoyance) and when he learned of the Romulans' similar concerns for Alpha Quadrant Security, he tried to formalize a joint operation with the Tal Shiar.

5) The Dominion had learned of this, and infiltrated the Tal Shiar.


Later when the Klingons attack Cardassia because they think the overthrow of the Cardassian government is the work of the Dominion (it was the Cardi-underground actually), it is not without precedent that a Shapeshifter had replaced a high government official...

A Changeling replaced Major Kira already - from Odo's report when she was supposedly being consumed by a rock, but the real Kira had been captured.

And now, a Romulan Colonel in the Tal Shiar had been copied and replaced.

The plot thickens. (I'm rewatching all my Deep Space Nine collection and at the end of Season 3 right now - right before the Klingon war).

Great stuff!

JediTricks
05-21-2004, 03:56 AM
Friday nights are the death slot, it's what killed TOS the 2nd time and UPN will likely kill Ent this season there too. It's a shame because while Ent hasn't been bringing in "Friends"-style network numbers, it has been getting 3 to 5 million viewers - many of which in the key demographics - consistently this season. It's the top-rated show of the network, but also costs the most by a wide margin. Personally, I think Friday won't work, but who knows.


Tycho, you're wrong about CSI on Fridays, Joan of Arcadia and JAG and The District are CBS's Friday night. CSI is CBS's Thursday anchor show at 9pm, where it consistently cleans up in the ratings. Anything but Smallville on the WB is no threat at all to Ent, and ABC's TGIF lineup is not much of the same audience (though I will be taping George Lopez if need be). I don't think NBC has ANYTHING of merit on Friday except Dateline, probably because the key demographics aren't home watching TV and they know it. I heard rumor that Fox is considering building a solid Friday night lineup though, that may end up being where Enterprise gets the most threats from.


Major Hayes was a season-long red shirt, I think we all knew it midway through. His death had no meaning at all, just cheap theatrics to pad the otherwise bland rescue of Hoshi.

I really didn't care much for this episode, it was a transitional ep full of contrived plot points and just a general sense of "get ready for a cliffhanger" ending, which better be resolved by the end of the next episode. Not all of it was bad, but I really didn't attach myself to any of it. Throughout the ep, I kept hoping for a more creative writer to take the main reptillian character and give him the ultimate plot twist - where he actually has bought Archer's story for a while now and is secretly taking the spinning Death Star of death ;) to destroy the Guardians' key spheres, just going through these motions like killing Degra to fool the Guardians. But we all know that's about as likely as Captain Sulu getting his own series.

James Boba Fettfield
05-21-2004, 04:56 AM
Don't worry about taping George Lopez on Friday nights. For the fall schedule ABC has moved George Lopez to Tuesday nights.

JediTricks
05-21-2004, 05:16 AM
Oh geez, I forgot, all the networks are apparently hot to screw up their schedules this upcoming season as much as possible using the flimsiest of programming data and assumptions. I know Fox wants to move an American Idol ep and 24 around trying to seed other nights, thus ensuring only the die-hard fans follow it. I wish I could kick these programming fools right in their heads sometimes, a chimp with some darts could do as good a job as these ham-fisted buffoons!

Tycho
05-21-2004, 11:59 AM
I missed the episode from a week ago back from this Wednesday.

How did Hoshi get captured?

Did Enterprise reach the Xindi council?

What happened?

(Not the latest episode, but the one before that)

Thanks!


(oh, and if anyone knew the title of the Hoshi's captured episode, I'd be grateful).

Dr Zoltar
05-21-2004, 04:19 PM
I can catch last night's on Sunday's re-runs, but the week prior, whenever something had happened to Hoshi (judging by your vague posts) I completely missed since I'd just gotten home from a vacation to Seattle.
Tycho,

You should have let me know you were visiting. I live very close to Seattle.

I can't remember the name of the ep. where Hoshi was kidnapped. But it was the ep. that ran on 5/12. At the very end of the show, as Enterprise is chasing the planet destroying weapon that was just launched, the Reptillians transported her off Enterprise. It surprised the heck out of me because I didn't think the Xindi had transporter technology. It was quick and happened right before the credits.

Tycho
05-21-2004, 05:50 PM
So the reptilians launched the weapon without approval of the council?

It's been sent to destroy earth and Archer is in pursuit?

Why did the Xindi reptiles want Hoshi?

What happened with Archer being supposed to meet Degra and go before the Xindi Council?

JediTricks
05-21-2004, 06:42 PM
Tycho, the episode was titled "The Council" - real creative. :rolleyes:

Anyway, Hoshi's capture is made abundantly clear in the episode we just saw, but was completely unexplained in the episode before that where it happened.

The Reptillians and Insectoids form a pact to steal the weapon (they only need 3 of the 5 race's codes to fire the weapon, hence needing Hoshi to crack the 3rd code), the Guardians are in direct contact with the Reptillians and are giving them timeline advice, as well as claiming the Repts will lead the Xindi after Earth is destroyed.

Archie met Degra, went before the council and talked to 'em, focusing more of the attention on the Aquatics. The Reptillians play like they're buying it, then kill Degra and steal the weapon. The council breaks apart.



It surprised the heck out of me because I didn't think the Xindi had transporter technology.Up until that point, the Xindi were not shown to have transporter technology. This is a common plot device that the writers end up using even though one of the original edicts of the show was that they weren't going to use transporters almost ever (yet they used it to save the day in the pilot, which pretty much told us all we needed to know I think). I love how nobody's heard of transporters and shields before the Enterprise crew and Starfleet started doing tests with 'em, yet every 5 or 6 episodes some unheardof race has one, the other, or both.

Tycho
05-21-2004, 08:33 PM
Thanks JediTricks. And I also agree with your comments about the transporter.

In fact, it could have been made more interesting if other races were competitive to steal or pirate the technology.

OK, so the Klingons had been in deep space longer than humans. The same could be said of the Romulans.

That doesn't mean they developed transporter technology.

JediTricks
05-23-2004, 03:47 PM
In the original canon, nobody had photon torpedoes or phasers or inter-ship video communications until after the Federation/Romulan war, which is still years away, so that's shot to hell now too. I think this is why doing a prequel such as this just cannot work, the writers (especially those who have been watching and/or writing for Trek for a while now) are just too used to using these plot devices to the point where they become crutches.

Tycho
05-23-2004, 04:58 PM
I disagree.

The original cannon was set by TOS episode "Balance of Terror."

The information provided by that episode was this:

1) DURING THE CONFLICT ship-to-ship visual communication was not possible. No human or Romulan had ever seen each other during the negotiations of the cease-fire.

This could mean that the Romulans did not allow their image to be seen (turn your webcam off - same thing) or that the viewscreen was destroyed (Star Trek: Nemesis) etc. etc. The episode does not state that they didn't have the technology.


2) It was fought using primative nuclear weapons.

how many times do the phasers go out? They target the weapons on enemy vessels to disable them? etc. etc.

If Enterprise was out of phasers and proton torpedoes, and Archer had some kind of nuclear device, or Trip thought one up using stuff in their warp reactor as a last-ditch desparate weapon, then what Spock and Kirk said was true: the battle was fought with primative nuclear weapons.

Spock did not say that phasers and proton torpedoes did not exist. He said the battle was fought with primative nuclear weapons. Well Kirk fought the Gorn with rocks and sticks even though phasers existed then. In a description of "Arena," you might say Kirk re-invented gunpowder, but it would not be necessary to add 1) he didn't have a disruptor, 2) he didnt' have a proton torpedo 3) he didn't have a phaser, 4) he didn't have a tri-cobalt device 5) he didn't have a plasma cannon 6) he didn't have quantum torpedoes, 7) he didn't have an ionic pulse cannnon, 8) he didn't have a tractor beam 9) he didn't have deflector shields, 10) he didn't have ablade of armor, 11) he didn't have a tetrion beam, 12) he didn't have a molecular descrambler.... Should I go on or would it be enough to say that the battle with the Gorn was fought with primative weapons and they did not have the ability to communicate with the captain on the surface?

JediTricks
05-23-2004, 05:49 PM
First off, I'd like to address something that really bothered me about the most recent ep of Enterprise. Throughout the series we see this over and over, but here it is the most extreme example yet. Here we are, our heroes are at the final milestone, the weapon is on its way to Earth and the crew of the Enterprise have to stop it by boarding Degra's ship, catching up to the weapon, and then beaming over and crippling it from the inside. (Ok, that's all well and good, but then...) So this is it, the last ditch effort to save Earth, Reed watches Major Hayes dies and then goes to his MACO troops and asks for volunteers... THREE of them!!! What the hell? Degra's ship should be jam packed with every warrior aboard the Ent they can find, as well as every single Enterprise crewmember that's able to use a phase pistol. There's no second chances, they're going to insert an assault force but they only want 3 guys to help them save billions?!? Archer should be sending wave after wave of crewmembers no matter how many may die because if they don't, EVERYBODY on Earth dies! The weapon should be teeming with Starfleet personnel and MACOs, 50, 60, 70 humans running around trying to stop this thing, but instead we get 3 redshirts, Reed, and the Captain lugging a sick Hoshi around. GRR! Stupid stupid sloppy writing!



Anyway, in response to your last post Tycho...

TNG later makes reference to the fact that the weapons used during the era of the Romulan war were simple lasers, virtually no threat whatsoever to a ship made in the last 100 years and easily deflected by the Enterprise's shields. You could make excuses for the lack of visual communications, but not the weaponry.

Arena was a staged situation, Kirk was taken away from his ship where he had photon torpedoes and phasers and placed in a situation by the Metrons without weaponry, but Kirk already knew how to make gunpowder and simply applied that knowledge. The Romulan/Federation war was not an outside-manipulated situation created by advanced beings, it started with an example of the failures of diplomacy in one of the stupid ages and continued from there, surely not EVERY battle had the phasers and photon torpedoes disabled.

Tycho
05-23-2004, 08:00 PM
Well, we don't know if the Earth-Romulan conflict even involved more than 2 ships. Was Somalia a war? Less than Iraq? Sure. Maybe you could evaluate it that way. But watching Black Hawk Down makes it into a very big episode in American history.

So we don't know how big the "Romulan War" was. That might be an over-stated euphamism, or it might be an understated appocalypse.

Next, we don't know that Q or any other race didn't have anything to do with it. That could or could not be the case.

This reminds me of a lot about Stillakid's arguments that they changed SW cannon - that Obi-Wan was trained by Yoda and no other, so Qui-Gon broke continuity.

Granted Qui-Gon was an addition to continuity, but in the fictional realm of SW he doesn't break continuity, but simply was an omission from the information Obi-Wan gave to Luke.

What's funny is that even in the real world, these things could be the case. Most of us don't believe George W. Bush that Saddam had WMD's now, but while I doubt it, I am objective enough to acknowledge the fact that they could find them yet - or manufacture evidence of them that up to 50% of the nation buys into. Either way, are they changing history's continuity? Maybe with fabricated evidence, but if history continues to unfold in this new timeline the CIA creates, (such as Saddam gave the WMD's to N. Korea, and then history records us invading over there to find them...) then the fabricated evidence becomes the foundation for the continuous continuity as it is best represented - regardless of the rest.

Now we are talking about 2 fictional universes and people's pre-conceptions about them: Yoda exclusively trained Obi-Wan, or Starfleet didn't have anything more than lasers and primative weapons (and maybe no visual communication capabilities) during a huge war with lots of Romulans. As with Star Wars, we can see that it does not negate a continuity, especially in a fictional universe, to learn that things went down differently.

Personally, I hope for a good war, and that they have to resort to nukes like the continuity says, for some believeable reason. Also, no visual shots of a Romulan are shown (even not viewed by the characters, but the audience alone). Doing the Romulans sort of mysterious this way could be pretty creative.

Finally, if Enterprise 1701 was once supposed to be the original starship with that name, MAYBE SOMETHING AT THE END OF ENTERPRISE's TV series run, happens to take Enterprise out of the starfleet history books. A secret. A special mission. Sort of covered up by the SFI or Section 31. So the series is not in vain - it did count - it's just that Captain Kirk will never learn about what really happened aboard Archer's vessel, as it would pollute the timeline continuity.

That way the show does count.

The continuity is still preserved.

Most of what we expect of the continuity is actually honored in full.

JediTricks
05-24-2004, 03:28 PM
Yeah Tycho, good thinking, the Romulan/Federation war happened between just 2 ships, they shot each other and then went home to report back and sign a treaty. I think you need to stop trying to shoehorn Trek canon into the movies you've most recently watched.

Q has nothing to do with anything outside of what we see, anybody who suggests otherwise might as well just chalk everything in Trek that ever happened up to the Q continuum. "Phasers work because Q makes it happen." This is one of those things I really can't stand about EU and prequels, everything has to happen for a reason that ties into something else we've already seen and thus they can now shoehorn any additional piece into place with these "lawyerball"-style loopholes (Spock is still the first Vulcan in Starfleet because T'Pol hasn't "technically" joined the fleet yet and other technicalities), and with omnipotent characters like Q, you could pretty much chalk ANYTHING up to him because he literally is the perfect deus ex machina.



Granted Qui-Gon was an addition to continuity, but in the fictional realm of SW he doesn't break continuity, but simply was an omission from the information Obi-Wan gave to Luke. Again, more lawyerball, Lucas can shoehorn it in on a stretched technicality, but the wording and presentation originally given in ESB about Yoda teaching Obi-Wan makes a clear argument as well - if Luke is trained by Yoda in the same manner as Obi-Wan was, then Obi-Wan shouldn't have been shown receiving that kind of training from Qui-Gon in a prequel even though it could be forced in on a technicality. Technicalities are for the legal system where lives are at stake, our legal system in theory operates under the axiom that a thousand guilty men should go free rather than one innocent man be imprisoned - that's well and good for the technicalities that work within the legal system, but in the REAL world, it doesn't really work that way. If your mom asks you if you washed the dishes and you say "yeah" but you really meant "yeah, last month", you're not going to get away with it even though technically it may be true due to a lack of specificity on the asker's part.



Finally, if Enterprise 1701 was once supposed to be the original starship with that name, MAYBE SOMETHING AT THE END OF ENTERPRISE's TV series run, happens to take Enterprise out of the starfleet history books First, I've suggested that very thing for the last episode of Ent, that at the end of the series the reason we never hear about the adventures of Jonathan Archer & crew is because they sacrifice themselves by going back in time and stopping their adventures before they ever get started.

Second, 1701 was never the original Starship with the name Enterprise, in TMP you can see the previous Starship Enterprise between the 1701 and the Space Shuttle... however, that original SS Enterprise (one of the ships in the days of the Daedalus (sp?)) was shaped like the Vulcan ships we've been seeing on Ent lately, the ring-around-the-ship shape.

Tycho
05-24-2004, 04:02 PM
Technicalities are for the legal system where lives are at stake, our legal system in theory operates under the axiom that a thousand guilty men should go free rather than one innocent man be imprisoned - that's well and good for the technicalities that work within the legal system, but in the REAL world, it doesn't really work that way. If your mom asks you if you washed the dishes and you say "yeah" but you really meant "yeah, last month", you're not going to get away with it even though technically it may be true due to a lack of specificity on the asker's part.

Thank you for making my point. Star Trek (or Star Wars) is not "the real world." It's the fictional universe where anything the creative powers approve becomes "real" and the technicalities are the fictional contrivances made up to satisfy the fans that this device respects previously established continuity.

However, fans like yourself are choosing not to accept these technicalities, thereby asserting that you yourself are the creative authority that dictates what and what's not an acceptable plot contrivance. This is fine for your own tastes and preferences. It is only entertainment and you could easily choose to watch another show if Trek no longer meets with your approval.

However, it could be said that James T. Kirk was actually killed before ever attaining the rank of Captain, and a surgically altered Klingon was put in his place so that one day the events depicted in Star Trek 6 would unfold and the Federation could be accused of provoking the war with the Klingon Empire.

Then it was this Klingon that battled Khan, etc. etc. in actuality.

In the real world, you'd DNA test my latest 'revelation.' But in the fictional universe, you could have a whole TV series designed around Klingon intelligence operatives trying to send and receive secret information from Kirk without Spock or the Federation ever becoming aware of it. After 7 years of such a program, as far as the Official Franchise would be concerned, Kirk was in fact a surgically altered Klingon.

Just the same, you have the choice to not watch that and believe what you will.

JediTricks
05-26-2004, 03:58 PM
Star Trek is not "the real world." It's the fictional universe where anything the creative powers approve becomes "real" and the technicalities are the fictional contrivances made up to satisfy the fans that this device respects previously established continuity. That is the poorest argument I've ever heard (though not the first time I've heard it). Just because a writer CAN write in cheap deus ex machina scenes ever 14 minutes doesn't mean it's acceptable. Just because the producers can say "1701 is still the first Enterprise in Starfleet because NX-01's military spells it 'Star Fleet', see?" doesn't make it reasonable OR excusable.



However, fans like yourself are choosing not to accept these technicalities, thereby asserting that you yourself are the creative authority that dictates what and what's not an acceptable plot contrivance. That argument also has little merit, and I'll give you a hypothetical example why...


a man is on trial for mugging 5 people in the park and killing 2 of them; his defense lawyer discovers that the police got the key evidence on this man via a search without legal cause and motions to dismiss since the prosecution would have no further evidence if not for that original illegal search; the judge grants the motion after determining that the search was indeed illegal and sets the mugger/killer free on that technicality... the judge has determined that law states that the greater good must be served here by upholding the constitutional rights of all Americans, but in so doing sacrificies the good of the locals who now have a confirmed thief and murderer back on the streets.

By your argument, Trek should allow the offender into the overall canon because of its own version of a legal loophole, but since this isn't a matter of life and death and not a legal situation of any kind, I ask you, who is that primarily serving: the offender or the overall canon? Who is served in your Klingon Kirk: the contrived and shoehorned plot revisioning, or the rest of Star Trek in general? It's the same issue as what we've been discussing, to paraphrase ST6's Federation President, just because one can do a thing does not necessarily mean one should do that thing.

Just because Rick Berman can put a young Sarek in Enterprise and make him actually be a Romulan spy does not mean he should. What good would be served there? What moral high ground would Berman be taking if he did that? How would he be enriching Trek with this move instead of cheapening it?

Tycho
05-26-2004, 04:54 PM
How would he be enriching Trek with this move instead of cheapening it?

It would all depend on how well the story was written.

Saying Kirk was a surgically altered Klingon would not serve Star Trek's greater good. I agree with you there. Why? There are enough TOS fans still around that worship Kirk (Myself included) who would not want their fond history of the man tainted by some prop-up of Archer who becomes the force-fed ultimate hero for some time travel moment where he discovers this.

Now saying Sarek was a Romulan spy could work. Loyalty to Sarek's character is not as extreme. It would explain why he'd allow himself to marry an illogical human. It would give Spock's past efforts on Romulus further inspiration if it turned out that Spock knew all along that his father was a Romulan, and Spock's distance from him was due to playing a delicate chess game to stop his father from letting Romulus gain to much of an advantage that they'd use to start a war with, while also trying to not betray his father (out of love for his mother or something more than that). You touched on a great story-idea that changes Trek continuity a bit, but could really work and be interesting. (unfortunately a new actor would have to replace Mark Leonard as Sarek - and possibly someone new would have to play Spock).

Anyway, you could do scenes with a young Spock and Sarek played by new actors. You could have a body-double do scenes from behind on the recreated sets of TOS while Leonard Nimoy and William Shatner did voice-overs for their "present-day characters for TOS," and you could do scenes in the future - both during the Dominion Wars, possibly with Patrick Stewart as Picard and Johnathon Frakes as Riker-Troi - but also using Shatner and Nimoy as they appear now to play their roles "sometime before the Enterprise B incident, but showing what made Kirk retire from Starfleet (when he'd go off to Idaho and meet "Antonia," - perhaps because of a fall-out with Spock over Romulan conspiracies and the true revelation about Sarek - and that Spock knew all along! In retrospect, perhaps either Spock acknowledges the tragic ending of their friendship (to Picard or something) or Kirk and Spock somehow make reparations.

But in any case, the movie spans 200 years...

set when Spock joins Starfleet Academy and discovers the truth about Sarek

moves to days during TOS - especially "extra scenes from Romulan episodes" and some new stuff made to look like TOS era

moves to Jim Kirk's betrayal and retirement after he disagreed with Spock on the Klingon incident (Undiscovered Country) and before the Enterprise B incident (Generations' prologue).

moves to Spock on Romulus during the Dominion Wars and interactions with Sloane - Section 31 or Bashir and Sisko - and the fallout with Seela, Tomaluk, and everything going on during the Romulan-Reman crisis.

Wraps up with Riker and the USS Titan and Spock's final legacy with undoing his father's damage and an end to the Romulan-Reman Civil War - and perhaps Spock's death! Yes! He dies giving final advice to Riker (the surrogate Kirk character from TNG)...



JEDITRICKS - by changing Trek continuity you could achieve such a great story such as this. I'm very serious!

This is not a cheap Trek ploy but might make a great movie! I'm going to toss my idea out there on other Trek forums. Somebody will at least try to rip it off and write a book...

But I totally disagree. I think the story idea you helped me think of is awesome and I'd like to hear what other people think!

JediTricks
05-26-2004, 06:02 PM
This is what Alternate Universe stories are for.

Tycho
05-26-2004, 11:05 PM
Hey guys, while I'd still like comments on my Spock-Sarek storyline idea, what about Enterprise?

The Nazis ruling earth and an alien Fuhrer in charge?

Do you guys think they will do another full season story arc?

I don't know if they need to go that far, but if say they do 7 shows (there abouts) under that storyline, that'd work.

So how did Archer wind up on earth anyway? That thing blew to bits. And in the right (or wrong) time era? What the heck?

It was cool to see T'Pol making friends with Porthos though. Porthos is one of my favorite characters and I think the writers totally don't do enough with him.

Anyway, Archer fighting the reptiliian Xindi reminded me a lot of Picard fighting Ru'Afo the Sona in Insurrection. But it was done pretty darn well! I liked the boarding party action they've been doing. Very -Star-Wars-y of them (as I think the Tantive IV invasion was the mother of all boarding party blast scenes!)

Well: your thoughts?

Dr Zoltar
05-26-2004, 11:20 PM
I just got done watching it and I don't know quite what to say. Immediately I was thinking "Not another go back in time to the WW2 era" story line. I kept thinking about the DS9 episode where the shuttle crashes in Roswell, NW with Quark et al.

Maybe the trans-dimentional aliens were able to get one final payback before the spheres were destroyed. I'm voting for time travel back to 1940 rather than the Nazi's controlling Earth.

Strange, very strange ending.

JediTricks
05-28-2004, 01:07 AM
I have nothing nice to say about this episode or that ridiculous, over-the-top ending. They can never just let the crew have their cake at the end of these seasons, apparently. Season 3 was almost entirely bad start to the very last scene, only T'Pol has grown as a character in any positive, dimensional way - it's pathetic. No character or plot point was used to any great effect here, just some fights stolen from other Trek and some BS about how Enterprise was at risk while destroying the sphere even though ANY Xindi ship probably could have been there to help out or ensure it worked. And that ending was so badly out of nowheresville, how generous to give it a total of 45 seconds of set-up. :mad: That was the laziest cliffhanger season finale EVER, might as well have said "... and what about Mary Lou?" (it's a soap opera cliche for those who don't know).

JediTricks
05-29-2004, 02:31 PM
BTW, something I just thought of, instead of getting Voyager castmembers and Geordi to direct episodes of Ent's season 4 (as they did with several season 3 eps, including the last 4 or 5), they should get Shatner, Nimoy, Nick Meyer, Patrick Stewart, Brent Spiner, etc., big names from TOS, the movies, and TNG, to direct, produce, or write episodes or even exec-produce story-arcs. Sure, it's a stunt, but it's a stunt Trek fans will likely respect and flock to.

Hellboy
06-01-2004, 10:09 PM
I watched the season finale over the weekend and thought it was decent, up until the end. I'm so tired of the alternate realities, different timelines and well, time travel in general. The whole concept has been played out to death in the ST universe. :bored:

While I didn't love this season I did find myself enjoying it more than the others. The sense of continuity it formed with the full season story arc was something I had hoped for from the beginning. Unfortunately the story did seem a bit shallow and didn't cover as much ground as I would've liked. The Mako's were cool but unfortunately the only character that was developed was the guy who looks like Bobby Kennedy. T'Pol's developements were good though, Trip too I guess, but Reed and Hoshi weren't used much and I actually started to wish Hoshi would perish during her torture by the Reptilians. She just wines so much. :speech:

I still think the show needs a more militaristic feel to it with space battles that illustrate the strategic aspects of manning a starship. I'll continue watching though as I always do in the hope that someday they'll get it right. It's still a good show that has the potential to be great.

jonthejedi
06-02-2004, 08:08 AM
Ironically, Steven Culp who plays head MAKO...did indeed portray Bobby Kennedy in the film "13 Days". Check out this fine performance by a great character actor. I have to agree about Enterprise's tried & true alternate-reality/time travel cliffhanger finale. It's been done to death before on Star Trek. It smells to me like they are setting up another season of linear story telling ala "24". It did work pretty well this season.

JediTricks
06-30-2004, 10:02 PM
According to the news on IMDB, Berman is going to ask Shatner to guest star on the next season of Enterprise. Seems a little desparate to me, but Kirk is Kirk is Kirk and that's good enough...

here's the text:

William Shatner may reprise his role as Capt. James Kirk on UPN's Star Trek: Enterprise next season, producer Rick Berman has told the sci-fi magazine Starburst. "Bill luckily has landed a wonderful role on the new David E. Kelley spinoff of The Practice, but [co-producer] Brannon [Braga] and I have plans within the next few weeks of sitting down with Bill and discussing some possible ways of his being involved in this season of Enterprise," Berman told the magazine. Such an appearance would mark Shatner's first on any of the modern-day Star Trek TV series. He played Kirk in the original series in the late '60s and in seven films.

Hellboy
06-30-2004, 10:20 PM
Kirk possibly returning eh.. :neutral:

It'll be interesting to see how they work the age discrepancy into the storyline. :rolleyes:

Sounds desperate to me too.

dr_evazan22
07-01-2004, 10:05 AM
Desperate?

My buddy, who is into ST the way I am into SW told me that Paramount was only charging (or the budget would only be) $800,000 as opposed to $1.6M per episode. A few reasons given was the low ratings, and the fact that this would be the 5th season (is that right?), which is the minimum needed for syndication.

Have any of you heard anything about this?

scruffziller
07-01-2004, 02:07 PM
They should have him play Tiberius instead. It would seem a little more solid I think.

JediTricks
07-01-2004, 07:47 PM
It's the 4th, not 5th season. I'm not surprised that Paramount slashed the episode budget in half, they shouldn't have let it get so bloated in the first place - Enterprise would be considered doing well in the ratings if not for that budgetary mess.


Shatner needs to play James T. Kirk, I don't think I could accept him as anybody else, not even one of Kirk's ancestors. I'd rather he be on the show as a regular as part of the time-jumping storyline or maybe he was still alive in the Matrix... er, the Nexus ;) and came out to help Archer make some vital choices. That'd be interesting, have Kirk unintentionally help create the Federation in his later years.

scruffziller
07-02-2004, 11:04 AM
Well one of the things that my friend pointed out was that if Archer was an important of the formation of the federation then Kirk would be aware of who he was and would be flabbergasted to meet him almost like meeting Zephram Cochrane.

Tycho
07-02-2004, 11:14 AM
If they are going to work in other Star Trek shows plotlines, then the future guy who gave the Suliban their orders should be a Vorta, trying to undo the timeline so that the Dominion doesn't lose the war.

Archer should meet Sisko (with or without meeting Kirk).

JediTricks
07-03-2004, 12:48 AM
DS9 involvement with Enterprise? No thankyou! The Dominion war just wasn't important enough in the galactic history to make all these changes and risk further damaging their standing in the Alpha quadrant.

dr_evazan22
07-06-2004, 07:46 PM
Hey! Who else wants Q to make an appearance in Enterprise?


















... uh, ... Anybody??

Dr Zoltar
07-07-2004, 02:22 PM
Hey! Who else wants Q to make an appearance in Enterprise?... uh, ... Anybody??
Nope! Never did like Q. The writers kind of ran that premise into the ground.

scruffziller
07-07-2004, 02:40 PM
Hey! Who else wants Q to make an appearance in Enterprise?

It would be awfully cool but they would have to keep their identity hidden much like the Squire of Gothos did since he was one of them, because as the continuity would go, we would not know their name until NG.
















... uh, ... Anybody?? It would be awfully cool but they would have to keep their identity hidden much like the Squire of Gothos did since he was one of them, because as the continuity would go, we would not know their name until NG.

scruffziller
07-22-2004, 10:06 AM
07.21.2004
Producers Reveal Tidbits about Season 4
WARNING! CONTAINS SPOILERS! A 22nd-century Dr. Soong (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/character/bio/1071411.html), a shadow of the Eugenics Wars, a Vulcan (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/aliens/article/70753.html) civil war and the possible reincarnation of Surak (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/character/bio/1115257.html)... these are some of the epic ideas being developed right now for the unfolding fourth season of Star Trek: Enterprise (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/index.html).



Tuesday night UPN held its annual summer party for the Television Critics Association (TCA) ó like every network does ó where reporters get to mingle with the producers and cast members of its various shows. This year the party took place at Shutters, a ritzy hotel on the beach in Santa Monica, on an upstairs outdoor deck overlooking the ocean.

Attending from Enterprise were producers Rick Berman (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/creative/69089.html), Brannon Braga (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/creative/69098.html) and Manny Coto (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/creative/bio/6171.html), and actors Scott Bakula (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/cast/120436.html), Jolene Blalock (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/cast/120451.html), Connor Trinneer (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/cast/120463.html), Dominic Keating (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/cast/120454.html), John Billingsley (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/cast/120439.html), and Linda Park (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/cast/120460.html) with her boyfriend Tom Hardy (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/MOV/010/cast/1173.html) (yes, the Picard (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TNG/character/1112469.html) clone from "Star Trek Nemesis (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/MOV/010/synopsis/90.html)"). We managed to catch up with most of them throughout the evening, but today we will bring you our interviews with the producers, and save our conversations with the actors for a later article.

We were particularly excited about the chance to speak with Manny Coto, who came on last season with the title of co-executive producer and is now considered a "show runner." Coto has been widely praised by the actors, his fellow producers, and fans alike for bringing a creative shot in the arm to Star Trek: Enterprise, beginning with his script for "Similitude (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/episode/3203.html)." He had just come from the Showtime series Odyssey 5, which ended after one season, but Berman and Braga saw the show and liked his work, and after interviewing him hired him as co-executive producer.

We asked Coto, what unique creative vision does he think he brings to the show? "Well, first and foremost, I bring a passionate love of all things Star Trek," he said. "I've loved Star Trek since I was a little kid. When Star Trek Communicator magazine was doing a little article on me, I went through my box of old photos, and I found a shot of me at age 11 watching Star Trek on TV, with a picture of Spock (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/character/bio/1112508.html) on the screen. In that same box I found a comic book that I had written ó I must have written this when I was 10 ó and it was a Star Trek comic book, with 'Beam me up Scotty' and all this. And I realized, 'Oh my God, I've been doing this my entire life!'"

He attended conventions in his hometown of Orlando, Florida, and has followed the subsequent series, Star Trek: The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine and Voyager, "all the way."

We asked Coto to elaborate on the "showrunner" role he's taken on with Enterprise. "What's been publicized, that Rick and Brannon have stepped back and I've moved in, is not exactly true. I've kinda moved in with them, so to speak, so we're all three running the show. I'm actually more in charge of writing, I guess, dealing with the writers and the 'writing room,' coming up with stories that Rick and Brannon approve or not approve, or give notes on."

"A lot of the stories that we're doing this season ó so far, the first half of the season ó are stories that I've come up with, or that Rick has come up with or that Brannon has pitched, and then we flesh them out in 'the room.'"

We asked if he could elaborate on some of these story ideas ó especially pertaining to the recently reported guest role of Brent Spiner (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/cast/bio/69070.html) in three episodes. "Well, it's a very exciting arc. Brent is going to play an ancestor of Dr. Soong, the creator of Data (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TNG/character/1112457.html). However, this character is more of a Dr. Frankenstein. He is not a benign individual. He has brought to life 20 embryos from the Eugenics era. So you have Soong who's leading a band of Khan Noonien Singh (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/character/bio/1071396.html)'s, so to speak. He believes that genetic engineering was on the right track! He wants to improve humanity, and he believes that the Eugenics Wars were an aberration, that these individuals are the future of humanity. Of course he's wrong ó they get away from him. They get out of control, and it becomes this three-episode saga that's kind of like 'Apocalypse Now' ó Enterprise becomes kind of like a ship going up river, trying to find these individuals, with Soong on board."

Spiner's character will be named Arik (like "Eric") Soong. The backstory, Coto explains, begins 20 years prior to the time of Enterprise (presumably 2134), when Soong stole the 20 embryos which were secretly stored in a Starfleet facility, and brought them to term. Arik Soong is a notorious criminal, and Coto even compared him to Hannibal Lecter ó "He's tried to escape many times, and he's feared, because Earth is still terrified of anything having to do with the Eugenics Wars." But his help is essential in tracking down the renegade "genetic supermen" who could ignite a war with the Klingons.

The adventure leads the ship to the "Borderland," which is an area of space between the Klingon (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/aliens/article/70638.html) Empire and the Orion Syndicate. This will be the first encounter with the Orions (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/aliens/article/70684.html), and we will get to see the green "slave women" introduced in "The Cage (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TOS/episode/68662.html)."

"What I really wanted to do this season is make the episodes that I as a Star Trek fan would have to see. You know, as a fan of the original series, if I heard that they were doing the Orion slavers and the Eugenics Wars, I would have to be in front of that TV."

But we had to ask about the place of the Eugenics Wars in the Trek universe. In "Space Seed (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TOS/episode/68708.html)" it was clearly established that the Khan-led conflict occurred in the 1990s. However, in "Hatchery (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/episode/4046.html)," Archer (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/character/1122628.html) mentions that his great-grandfather fought in the Eugenics Wars (which would probably put them in the mid-21st century). How is Coto dealing with the chronology issue?

"I'm not dealing with it. There's no point. They were in the 1990s because the old series ran in 1966 and that was the future then. Clearly, we're in 2004, and there haven't been any Eugenics Wars that I know about! So, simply, the Eugenics Wars 'happened' ó they happened in the past [relative to the current show]. I don't know how else to do it."

There is another three-episode story arc being planned for later in the season that Coto is tremendously enthused about, one that deals with a civil war on planet Vulcan. "If you've watched Enterprise and you watched the old series and Next Gen, you know that there's a difference between the Vulcans of our era and the Vulcans of later eras. Our Vulcans lie, our Vulcans are monolithic, our Vulcans are not pacifistic. What we've done is develop an idea: What if an individual appears on Vulcan who is saying to the populace that we have strayed from the teachings of Surak? This individual is like a Martin Luther. And he spawns a Vulcan civil war."

He nicknamed it "Vulcan of Arabia" because it's an epic story taking place almost entirely on the hot, desert planet. "It involves a Vulcan Reformation," he continued. "I'm equating the Vulcan High Command with the Catholic Church, which in medieval times strayed from the teachings of Christianity; similarly, the Vulcan High Command has strayed from the teachings of Surak. This individual wants to bring us back to those teachings, but it causes instability on Vulcan because he's preaching pacifism, he's preaching pure logic, he's preaching a return to the old ways. But, he not only believes in the teachings of Surak, he believes he is Surak. He claims that he possesses Surak's katra. Is that true or isn't it? We'll find out. But what happens is, with the instability on Vulcan, you have the Andorians trying to take advantage, and it threatens to destabilize the entire region. And of course, Enterprise will be stuck in the midst of this turmoil, and by the end of this three-episode arc, we will begin to see Vulcans approaching what they were in the later eras. We'll see the beginnings of a new Vulcan."

"It's gonna be a blast. I'm picturing the scene where two Vulcan armies are poised on the desert ó what's gonna happen, will they or will they not fight?"

In this epic story arc, he also promised a subplot which will unravel into a very intriguing plot twist.

Of course, these ambitious plans beg the question of whether there will be enough budget to realize such imaginative visions, given reports that UPN is paying Paramount a lower license fee for the show. "The budget has gone down slightly, but it's not gone down as much as has been reported. We're not slaving under a horrible miniscule budget at all. You're not going to notice," he promised.

"It should be a fun season."

We also caught up with one of Coto's partners in crime, Brannon Braga, and got him to talk about the first story arc of the season, the followup to the cliffhanger of "Zero Hour (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/episode/4968.html)" starting with "Storm Front" (which is in production right now). It's been rumored that this "Nazi story" will wrap up the Temporal Cold War throughline. Is that true?

"Our intention is to resolve the Temporal Cold War once and for all," Braga replied. "It lingered for three seasons, and we would like to finish it off in grandiose fashion, and move on to new territory. So, with these episodes, it will be the last of Daniels, and the last of all of those elements." We will see Silik (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/character/bio/1124683.html) and the Suliban (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/aliens/article/127303.html) once again during the Nazi story, but Braga added that "most likely" it'll be the last time. "It's hard to say for sure, because we're so early in the season, but our intention is to be done with it."

Will the identity of "Future Guy," Silik's shadowy boss, ever be revealed? "Well, we've been debating that for quite some time, and I'll leave that question open. We haven't decided yet. We have some ideas about him ó or her ó or it. But we haven't settled on any one identity yet. It's still a question mark. The Temporal Cold War may resolve without Future Guy's identity being revealed."

It's been widely publicized that William Shatner (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TOS/cast/111517.html) could make a guest appearance on the show. What can he tell us about that? "There have been some preliminary discussions with William Shatner, but it's so far from being resolved that I hesitate to comment because I don't want to jinx it. We so badly want it to happen, but it's so early that I don't really have much to say about it. There's interest on both ends, but Bill is on a different series [Boston Legal], and we're just starting our season, and so much has to be done before it actually happens. We all have our fingers crossed."

Any notion yet what kind of story Shatner might be involved in if he does come on to the show? "There are some ideas floating about, but we're hesitant to commit to anything or start actively developing anything, until we know whether it's a reality," Braga said.

Earlier in the day, UPN held a press conference for the TCA with Les Moonves, co-president and co-COO of Viacom, and Dawn Ostroff, president of entertainment for UPN. The emphasis of the press conference was UPN's new shows and its revamped schedule in general, but Moonves ó whose recent promotion puts him in charge of Paramount Television as well as UPN ó and Ostroff took some time to speak about how Enterprise fits into the network's lineup.

Enterprise is moving to Friday at 8:00 p.m. ET/PT starting August 6, and the new episodes of Season 4 will begin October 8.

Ostroff commented that the Star Trek spinoff is one of the shows "that have the most loyal viewers on television," and expects the audience to follow it to Fridays. She said the season-long arc of last season "really worked well for us," but the fourth season mini-arcs "will allow people to come in and out a little more freely." She added, "We're very aggressive in 'stunt casting' this year, which I think will also bring in some viewers." She mentioned Spiner, but also noted that Golden Brooks of Girlfriends will guest star in the first few episodes. "And we're working on several other people."

Moonves spoke about the licensing fee cut (related story (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/5853.html)) that reportedly helped keep the show on the air. "Paramount came to us ó that was before Paramount was reporting to me, so now I'm negotiating with myself," he joked, "and they made a very attractive offer to UPN to bring the show back... Obviously Paramount has a large syndication deal with Star Trek. They gave us a very attractive offer and therefore, it fit into our scheduling needs." Moonves confirmed that, as Paramount chief, he would like to see Enterprise go a full seven years because of the syndication value. But as UPN chief, he has to make other considerations in the case of a show that's been seen as an underperformer for the network. "If Star Trek had cost the license fee that it cost a year ago, a different decision may have been made," he said. "I can tell you right now the key, the priority goal, is building UPN." However, he believes the move to Friday for Enterprise, coupled with America's Next Top Model, is "a much better strategy. I think we'll do a much better number there with that show, and perhaps it can live for a number of years. We hope so."

JediTricks
07-23-2004, 06:47 PM
Geez, reading between those lines, it seems like Paramount has given up on the show but figures since they have literally nothing else that they might as well try to get the fans involved by changing management. A lot of these ideas seem pretty off-the-wall to me, but no worse than if Berman had done them.

Tycho
03-24-2007, 11:39 AM
Once again, while re-watching all my Enterprise DVDs, I really liked the western "North Star."

That was a great show. Something about the fantasy of landing a space shuttle on top of the OK Corral for a good old fashioned shoot-out with phasers and pulse guns going one on one with six shooters.

Trip and T'Pol riding a horse was funny as well.