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keithfite
09-16-2003, 05:02 PM
This really has to do with all of the new trillogy, but I will post it here since TPM is first. I just wanted to ask, do any of you really enjoy the new movies. I hear so many people say how they dont like them. I personally love EP I and II and enjoy them way more than the original trilogy. I love the original trilogy, but the new movies have everything you ever wanted. In the old movies we all wanted to see more jedi, or know about the clone wars, and know the history of Darth Vader and now we do. and I enjoy these prequels way more, and think EPIII may be the best of them all when it comes out in 2005. I understand why many love the originals more, they grew up with them, and they are classic. But it seems everyone dosnt like the new ones. I just wondered if any of you are like me, and really love everything about these new movies. I would never knock the old ones. They are great. But I think these new ones are entertaining, and really fun. and just wondered what you all think. I have heard so much negative, I wondered if any of you liked em, or do you all hate em.

stillakid
09-16-2003, 05:08 PM
I understand why many love the originals more, they grew up with them, and they are classic.


That statement underlines the misconception that many "prequel defenders" have about those who state that they haven't enjoyed the Prequels. It isn't that "we grew up with them" so ergo, we love them more, as if there was some magic line of demarcation or something. I, and others with whom I've spoken to about this, don't enjoy the Prequels as much because they are just poor films within themselves. It has very little to do with the original films at all. I could just as easily make comparisons to any other film made in the last decade. It doesn't matter. Good writing is good writing. And visa versa.

In fact, it would be far easier to just say, "well, the Prequels are put together just as well as the older ones, but I am overly nostalgic for my youth," but that's entirely innaccurate and it is a Red Herring which draws attention from the true reasons why people dislike the Prequels. There might easily have been a different chain of events which made the original films fraught with problems but made the Prequels superb beyond all previous Oscar winners.

So your question unfairly pits the OT against the Prequels as if this sense of "nostaglia" was what separated them.

Beast
09-16-2003, 05:18 PM
I love the new films, equally or more so then the OT at the moment. The OT films I've seen hundreds of times (literally) and I have the dialogue and the scenes pretty well commited to memory. As for the NT, it's something new. As for why so many people seem to have issues with the PT, I still say it has to do with the large number of years between when us older folks saw the OT for the first time, and when we saw the PT.

We've lost that spark of innocent child-like wonder. The ability to just not rationalize what we've seen on screen. Even the newer generations are loosing their abilites to just enjoy movies as entertainment without picking them apart. Director's on Audio Commentaries for DVD's say the same thing. It's scary to see a 6 year old that critiques movies for being unrealistic. I go to a movie to suspend disbelief. It's called fantasy for a reason.

I also really enjoy the more complex storylines then the OT offered. Sure it gets a little wordy sometimes, but the political aspects are really engrossing. The writing for Palpatine manipulation, and all the other aspects that go along with his rise to power is one of my favorite parts of the entire saga as a whole. So is getting a peek at the Jedi when it was in it's glory years. Long before Palpatine's version of history, painted them as a 'Hokey Religion with Ancient Weapons'.

I can see how some people think they're more childish then the old films. But I don't see it. Both Trilogies had their screwball characters. And the prequels take place in a brighter time period then the OT. There wasn't this opressive Emperor in charge, spreading his evil through the galaxy. The Galaxy had enjoyed peace since the formation of the Republic. After all, to follow one of Old Obi-Wan's quotes from ANH: "It was before the dark times, before the Empire."

Once the Empire comes to power, you see massive changes in the entire galaxy. Everything is dark, used, there's no artistic love given to ship design anymore. It's just like the change that occured to how things were designed, after the 50's and 60's. Things became mass produced, so you lost a lot of artistry in designs. It became cold, metallic, built for function, and not for any other reason. I think it's very intresting to see the massive changes that twisted the galaxy in so short a time.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

gtrain29
09-16-2003, 06:23 PM
I'm glad you started this thread because there's lots of things I wanted to say about PT vs OT.
I've bashed the PT a lot, but I still own them and watch them as much as the OT. So, I had to think what it was that sets them apart.

I believe the acting, writing, and directing of the PT are inferior to what we saw in the OT.
It's the actors' jobs to project a believable character to the audience. But examples of this are few in the PT. I know the OT was also bashed for acting, but I disagree with that. In fact, I think Mark Hamill did an outstanding job portraying Luke, Carrie Fisher was good as Leia, and Harrison was a perfect Han Solo. Billy Dee only really had 1.5 movies to build a character that we could all get into and understand what Lando was all about, and he excelled in his work. If not for Sir Alec, we wouldn't really care that much about young Obi-Wan's fate -- especially with him being a minor character in E1. Palpatine and the people who made vader were also great. Yes, there were "Two fighters against a star destroyer," and, "copy. . . gold leader," but, all in all, I think the OT was done much better.
When you look at the performances in E1, Ian Mc is fun to watch as Palpy. I don't know the name of the guy who played Panaka, but he really created a deep character. Even though I don't like the cartoons in the PT, I think Watto was one of the most believable characters. And of course, Liam Neeson's performance as Qui-Gon saved the movie. He became the focal point of the movie that I thought was supposed to be about Anakin, and without him there really wouldn't be a lot of bright spots.
I know Ewan's a good actor, but he really hasn't done a whole lot for me so far. Maybe it was his limited role in E1 or the fact that he has to interact with Hayden in E2, but I haven't seen much good out of him.
The same goes for Sam Jackson. It looks as if he is trying to act poorly. NOt a shred of realism in his performance.
Everyone bashes Hayden, which is understandable, but I have yet to see Natalie Portman deliver a believable line. I mean, it looks like she has a gun to her back in E2 when she confesses her love for Ani. It makes you laugh. Her unemotional monotone drawl throughout 1 & 2 are just pathetic for someone who's supposed to be a leading character.
There are some bright spots, though. As I said earlier, Qui-Gon has become one of my favorite Saga characters thanks to Liam's portrayal. I don't like the cartoons, but Watto and Dexter were more believable than the majority of actors in PT. Ian is just a blast to watch as Palpy. As much as I was against showing Boba's origin, I can't argue with Tem Morrison's job as Jango. The dialogue between he and Obi-Wan is about the best in E2. Christopher Lee was magnificent -- I wish he'd had more screen time. Oops, I can't forget about Jimmy Smits. Hopefully he'll have a larger role as Bail in E3.

I think there are areas in the PT where Lucas should have had a writer help him get through the tough spots, and Irvin Kirshner should have directed rotj. But I enjoy both the PT and OT. I buy all the merchandise and watch the movies a lot. I will always feel the OT is superior, but I think E3 has the potential to be the best of them all.

Kidhuman
09-16-2003, 07:12 PM
Okay, I would like to say first off that I love all five movies so far. The OT tome is great. It is what sparked my interest in Sw(of course). I was enthralled by it all. I remember going to Star Wars and getting that little toycatalog that came with all vehicles and playsets. Iremember when my parents bought home my first 4 figures(Luke X-Wing, Chewie, Ben, and Greedo). It never let up from there.

I was so excited when TPM was announced to be made. I couldnt wait. I waited on line for two hours to get tickets for the midnight showing. When I saw it I was enthralled once again. My fascination peeked again. I hate waiting three years for new movies. I am upset that in 2005 it is done for good(I hope G. Lu changes his mind and makes 7,8,and 9)

Now the OT is great. Even know I have seen it multitudes of times it just never gets old to me. The memories of my childhood and all. I still get goosebumps at the same parts I always did back then. The special effects I think are great. The story line is awesome. Everything from Vader's first appearance to his last in ROTJ.

The PT is great too. Like mentioned above, it gives us what we wanted, more Jedi, Anakins life and his story. It sets up the OT great(at least for now). I dont care if Midi's arent mentioned again or not. I dont care if JJb is annoying or not. These movies are flat out awesome. Hayden can use an acting class though. The special effects are again top notch. The CG is awesome too. But that is my story and I am sticking to it.

keithfite
09-17-2003, 01:25 AM
well , I am glad you all replied. I was very interested to see what you had to say. I love the new movies, and the old. all great. I have seen em a hundred times and I will probably see them a hundred more. I just hear so much negative about the prequels. Im glad some others enjoy them. I love the new movies. I agree some of the acting is off, but the stories are just great. I will be honest, I like the new movies better. I just really enjoy their stories. I love TPM and alot of people dont. But to me that was just the greatest thing. When I saw it, I was thrilled Its look was just great. The places they were in, the builings, the scenery. It was cool. But I love them all. But like I said, my favorites are the new.

JediTricks
09-17-2003, 04:54 AM
Gee, aren't I glad I never chose a moderator for this section. :p ;)


JJB, I think you're selling me short if you think my primary reason for liking the OT over the PT is simply nostalgia - I think it's as much a simplistic, shallow excuse as the "prequel fans only like the movies because they're Lucas' sheep" type of thinking.


Anyway, let me answer the question posed as if it were asked to an individual instead of about a group:

I just wanted to ask, do you really enjoy the new movies.Honestly, no I don't, not very much. I can't watch either one again anymore, and they've even sorta affected my enjoyment of the OT now as well by changing its content. I dislike AOTC more than TPM though and only bothered to see AOTC 1/4 as many times as TPM.


but the new movies have everything you ever wanted.They do? Not to me, they answer nothing I was ever curious about and their plotlines have hindered the OT's for me (see previous) as well. I never wanted to see more Jedi, I had almost no curiousity about the Clone Wars, and I certainly didn't want THIS history of Darth Vader (though I will give you that there is a history I might have liked to have seen, so you get me on that one).


I understand why many love the originals more, they grew up with them, and they are classic. Like Stilla said, my love of the OT has nothing to do with "growing up with them" or because they are considered classics, if the latter were the case I'd love Citizen Kane (which I don't), and if the former were the case I'd still be as enamoured with ROTJ as I was 20 years ago.


Don't worry Keith, I'm totally confident that there are still plenty of fans who dig the Prequels as much as you do, and I don't knock most of them for their opinions at all (except the ones who are lying to themselves about it out of blind loyalty or whatever reason, that does bother me a lot). I don't know if the majority of fans are prequel lovers or not, but it's clearly not a singular fanship.

stillakid
09-17-2003, 09:05 AM
Gee, aren't I glad I never chose a moderator for this section. :p ;)


JJB, I think you're selling me short if you think my primary reason for liking the OT over the PT is simply nostalgia - I think it's as much a simplistic, shallow excuse as the "prequel fans only like the movies because they're Lucas' sheep" type of thinking.


Anyway, let me answer the question posed as if it were asked to an individual instead of about a group:
Honestly, no I don't, not very much. I can't watch either one again anymore, and they've even sorta affected my enjoyment of the OT now as well by changing its content. I dislike AOTC more than TPM though and only bothered to see AOTC 1/4 as many times as TPM.

They do? Not to me, they answer nothing I was ever curious about and their plotlines have hindered the OT's for me (see previous) as well. I never wanted to see more Jedi, I had almost no curiousity about the Clone Wars, and I certainly didn't want THIS history of Darth Vader (though I will give you that there is a history I might have liked to have seen, so you get me on that one).

Like Stilla said, my love of the OT has nothing to do with "growing up with them" or because they are considered classics, if the latter were the case I'd love Citizen Kane (which I don't), and if the former were the case I'd still be as enamoured with ROTJ as I was 20 years ago.


Don't worry Keith, I'm totally confident that there are still plenty of fans who dig the Prequels as much as you do, and I don't knock most of them for their opinions at all (except the ones who are lying to themselves about it out of blind loyalty or whatever reason, that does bother me a lot). I don't know if the majority of fans are prequel lovers or not, but it's clearly not a singular fanship.

I'd like to concur with JT on this one. It really bothers me when other people try to tell me why I must dislike the Prequels. All I can figure is that it makes them feel better to think that it couldn't possibly be because of any inherent weaknesses of the films themselves, so it must be out of some twisted sense of nostalgia or OT loyalty or something. Some University should study this phenomenon. It's kind of fascinating.

Anyway, I will say that I did expect something completely different than the Prequel stories we are getting. Why? Was it because of some story that I wrote in my own head prior to seeing them? Not at all. I expected a different kind of story, with some different characterizations (Anakin being one) because that's the backstory that George and company wrote into the OT films. As I've mentioned a thousand times before, Obi Wan's history has been entirely altered and I'm still not sure why George would want to do such a thing. It's very bizarre to me. So this consistent hum of voices telling us to just sit back and enjoy it "like we did when we were kids" is impossible. It's the details that create the overall enjoyment, and for me, I can't, and refuse to, simply ignore (and rationalize away) such blatant abuses of plot and continuity. Why anyone else would is beyond me, but that's their choice I suppose. To each his own.

My one wish is that George would read some of these comments and respond to them honestly and without evasion. His m.o. tends to be to just ignore "critics" because "they just like to beat him down." Well, George, here's one critic who has spent literally thousands of dollars in merchandise because he liked your first efforts so well. Why would my recent critiques be any less valid just because they are negative? Oh yeah, it's because I'm older now and nostalgic for the old days. :rolleyes:

TheDarthVader
09-17-2003, 09:38 PM
I am not going to be critical in this thread. I am not going to "pick apart" the OT or the PT. All I can tell you is the answer to your question...Me, personally, I enjoy the PT. I like the movies and I believe the movies are good. I never had the chance to see ANH, ESB, or ROTJ in the theater...I did get to see the SE in the theater. I never had many of the OT toys either. But I am not sure what factors lead people to love or hate the PT (or like or dislike these movies). I love the PT and I love the OT.........END.....:crazed:

Rogue II
09-17-2003, 11:47 PM
I pretty much agree with stillakid and JediTricks.

On a related note, I saw the Oct 2003 issue of Toyfare magazine today. In the begining of the magazine, there was a picture of George Lucas with a thought bubble next to him that basically said, "I seem to have forgot to do something...Oh yeah, I forgot to make the prequels good!"

2-1B
09-18-2003, 02:21 AM
On a related note, I saw the Oct 2003 issue of Toyfare magazine today. In the begining of the magazine, there was a picture of George Lucas with a thought bubble next to him that basically said, "I seem to have forgot to do something...Oh yeah, I forgot to make the prequels good!"

Toyfare should do the same thing with their next issue, except it should have the entire staff of that rag with the thought bubble "We seem to have forgot to do something...Oh yeah, we forgot to make this magazine good!" :crazed:


I'd like to concur with JT on this one. It really bothers me when other people try to tell me why I must dislike the Prequels. All I can figure is that it makes them feel better to think that it couldn't possibly be because of any inherent weaknesses of the films themselves, so it must be out of some twisted sense of nostalgia or OT loyalty or something. Some University should study this phenomenon. It's kind of fascinating.

I agree, people should not assume that others do not like the PT out of nostalgia for the OT. However, I think the opposite is also true. On the internet (well, that goes without saying because who in their right mind would talk about SW in the real world :rolleyes: ) I've sometimes seen people prematurely criticized for liking the PT because they are allegedly too blindly loyal to the Saga.
I've seen extremism on both sides and I disagree with it all. :)


Anyway, I will say that I did expect something completely different than the Prequel stories we are getting. Why? Was it because of some story that I wrote in my own head prior to seeing them? Not at all. I expected a different kind of story, with some different characterizations (Anakin being one) because that's the backstory that George and company wrote into the OT films. As I've mentioned a thousand times before, Obi Wan's history has been entirely altered and I'm still not sure why George would want to do such a thing. It's very bizarre to me. So this consistent hum of voices telling us to just sit back and enjoy it "like we did when we were kids" is impossible. It's the details that create the overall enjoyment, and for me, I can't, and refuse to, simply ignore (and rationalize away) such blatant abuses of plot and continuity.

Indeed, you should question the product and evaluate it. No argument there. But I think this is being a little too general. I know that some people do take that avenue and just say "sit back and enjoy" but at the same time I've seen some pretty honest and intelligent interprations of those 'abuses of plot and continuity' and I will not write off those efforts. :)


Why anyone else would is beyond me, but that's their choice I suppose. To each his own.

Well, isn't that why people come here to talk about these movies? :D


Everyone bashes Hayden, which is understandable,

Everyone does? :confused:
I know he takes a good amount of criticism but I know of several people who love him in the role. Hell, I wish he was in TPM. :)
I'm reminded of the Razzies and Hayden's nomination for worst supportng actor. It's funny because if the geniuses who run that "award" were actually looking for the worst performance on film for 2002, they wouldn't come CLOSE to nominating Hayden. :rolleyes:
Where's the exposure unless you take aim at the "big news" movies of the year? ;)


when she confesses her love for Ani. It makes you laugh.

It does? Not to me. (If I can paraphrase JT for a second :D )

JEDIpartner
09-18-2003, 12:42 PM
Well, gosh... I think Caesar said it all for me!

I like the prequels and I like the OT. I like them for different reasons. In all honesty, I think I like AOTC as much as I like ESB. So shoot me... *shrug* :o

JediTricks
09-19-2003, 01:17 AM
I was watching the Dark City dvd today with Roger Ebert's commentary track - a great film and an interesting commentary that references ANH several times - when he said something that really hit home with my feelings on the stories of the prequels thus far, so I wrote it down:

If the director has been at pains to explain everything in a visionary, mysterious film... in a way, he has diminished it. There should always be mystery.

Jaff
09-19-2003, 01:51 AM
I love the new films just as much as the old films. I will agree that the acting is a little poor in the new films for many of the characters, but not all of them. Now I was a young boy when the SW films came out (I'm in my 30's), so nostalgia is really not relevant to my tastes. I guess it comes down to different strokes for different folks. It's like Star Trek. Some say that Wrath of Kahn is the best others say Undiscovered Country, or Voyage Home is the best. TPM and AOTC have just more little details to nit pick and explore which I enjoy. I will say that my nostalgia does give the Classic films more respect because they were better executed, and not toned down to be too kiddie appealing.

gecklund
09-19-2003, 02:28 AM
I think TPM and AOTC are good solid stories. I base this opinion on the books. Episode 1 and Episode 2 were tight in written form. For me the problem lies in the fact that Lucas is so secretive with his scripts these days. The actors are given only a few pages at a time to learn from. This keeps them from learning the character and understanding the feelings they need to express scene by scene. If you watch Anikin in AOTC you can see that his emotional responses are all over the place. As a viewer I was constantly reminded that I was watching a movie. If the actor ( Hayden Christensen ) was given the whole script to study he could have given a much more convincing preformance. For proof of his acting ability check out ( Life as a house ) Instead what we get is great effects and bad acting from good actors.

stillakid
09-19-2003, 03:33 PM
I think TPM and AOTC are good solid stories. I base this opinion on the books. Episode 1 and Episode 2 were tight in written form. For me the problem lies in the fact that Lucas is so secretive with his scripts these days. The actors are given only a few pages at a time to learn from. This keeps them from learning the character and understanding the feelings they need to express scene by scene. If you watch Anikin in AOTC you can see that his emotional responses are all over the place. As a viewer I was constantly reminded that I was watching a movie. If the actor ( Hayden Christensen ) was given the whole script to study he could have given a much more convincing preformance. For proof of his acting ability check out ( Life as a house ) Instead what we get is great effects and bad acting from good actors.

I agree with your assessment, Gecklund, and in fact I've brought up "Life As a House" numerous times. I totally believe that Lucas saw Hayden's part in that film and knew that it was exactly the same character that young Anakin needed to be. Being the hands-off Director that he is, George somehow relied on the "Life As A House" character to just appear in AOTC by osmosis or something. What he forgot is that Sam Monroe (Hayden's part) was not Hayden Christenson. As good as Hayden can be, he still needed to be directed, which is something that all the actors who have ever worked for George complain about him not doing. Toss in a mediocre to bad script with really corny dialogue and it spells disaster.

As far as them being solid stories, I do believe that the potential was definitely there. George did have almost all the elements gathered onscreen to make it a whalloping good time, but what he lacked was someone to proofread and polish these scripts for him, as he had done with the OT films as well as American Graffiti. Sometimes just a little bit will make all the difference in the world.

JediTricks
09-19-2003, 11:13 PM
gecklund, the books were written AFTER the scripts were completed, they were fleshed out by the authors, not Lucas, so I don't judge the merits of the films on the books m'self, and they're definitely not canon.

Good call about the script-in-hand problem, and Lucas being a director who doesn't really know how to give direction to his actors (he's said so himself, don't come down on me for it) just amplifies the problem by not giving the actors an idea of how to do their scenes. I think this is the chief culprit in why Jake Lloyd's performance in TPM is so stomach-churning for me, I thought the kid was pretty good in his earlier stuff (though I also think he's too young for TPM, he's 7 years old most of the time playing a kid who's supposed to be 9 and was originally written to be like 12 - but that's a casting problem, not directing).

stillakid
09-19-2003, 11:33 PM
gecklund, the books were written AFTER the scripts were completed, they were fleshed out by the authors, not Lucas, so I don't judge the merits of the films on the books m'self, and they're definitely not canon.


On that topic, what's the word on the OT novelizations? I always assumed that George essentially approved all the detail that went into them, which, in essence, would make them "canon." No?

(Of course, I'm not talking about any of the extra curricular reading which apparently has gone 6 ways to Sunday in terms of consistent continuity.)

JediTricks
09-20-2003, 12:43 AM
Nope, all novels are absolutely non-canon. Only what appears on the screen, and now I guess an addendum to that is "only what George produces on the big screen most recently" to boot.

stillakid
09-20-2003, 12:47 AM
Nope, all novels are absolutely non-canon. Only what appears on the screen, and now I guess an addendum to that is "only what George produces on the big screen most recently" to boot.

So, when they figure out a way to copy-protect all the media that consumers used to own, Lucasfilm will send out periodic updates, ala Microsoft, so that audiences worldwide, will be sure to have the latest breaking versions of the Star Wars Saga films. I can hardly wait.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-20-2003, 01:33 PM
Anyway, back on topic. I really like TPM and AOTC a lot, maybe even more than the OT films. But of course I still love the OT films as well. :)

2-1B
09-21-2003, 01:16 AM
I agree with your assessment, Gecklund, and in fact I've brought up "Life As a House" numerous times. I totally believe that Lucas saw Hayden's part in that film and knew that it was exactly the same character that young Anakin needed to be. Being the hands-off Director that he is, George somehow relied on the "Life As A House" character to just appear in AOTC by osmosis or something. What he forgot is that Sam Monroe (Hayden's part) was not Hayden Christenson. As good as Hayden can be, he still needed to be directed, which is something that all the actors who have ever worked for George complain about him not doing. Toss in a mediocre to bad script with really corny dialogue and it spells disaster.

Nope, not true or even possible. :)

AOTC was shot in summer of 2000 and Hayden got his LAAH part afterward.
It's just that the movie was shot AND released during the period of time in which AOTC was in post production. LAAH opened around November 2001 because I remember going to see it in the theater with my mom. She waited in the LAAH room while I snuck in to the Harry Potter room to catch another peek at the "Forbidden Love" AOTC trailer. ;)

I remember Hayden talking about going back for his pickup shots in early 2001. He had that black **** in his hair from his LAAH role and George told him it better come out. Well, this may be my own mind projecting that story onscreen, but when I watch that Tatooine scene on the starship after Shmi's funeral it sure looks to me as if Ani's hair is a bit darker! :D I don't know for a fact that it's a pickup shot but until I hear otherwise, that's just my opinion.

stillakid
09-21-2003, 11:15 AM
Nope, not true or even possible. :)

AOTC was shot in summer of 2000 and Hayden got his LAAH part afterward.
It's just that the movie was shot AND released during the period of time in which AOTC was in post production. LAAH opened around November 2001 because I remember going to see it in the theater with my mom. She waited in the LAAH room while I snuck in to the Harry Potter room to catch another peek at the "Forbidden Love" AOTC trailer. ;)

I remember Hayden talking about going back for his pickup shots in early 2001. He had that black **** in his hair from his LAAH role and George told him it better come out. Well, this may be my own mind projecting that story onscreen, but when I watch that Tatooine scene on the starship after Shmi's funeral it sure looks to me as if Ani's hair is a bit darker! :D I don't know for a fact that it's a pickup shot but until I hear otherwise, that's just my opinion.


Hmm, since I have no evidence to the contrary, I'll fold to your claim. :D While the motivation for hiring Hayden remains in question, it still doesn't remove the lack of direction that he (and the rest) clearly had from George.

But you have to admit (though I know you won't ;) ) that the similarities between Hayden's LAAH character and what George wanted Anakin to be are uncanny. I'll be the first to say that if George had succeeded in getting Sam Monroe into his film, then AOTC would have been far far better.

2-1B
09-22-2003, 02:27 AM
But you have to admit (though I know you won't ;) ) that the similarities between Hayden's LAAH character and what George wanted Anakin to be are uncanny.

Quite the opposite actually, I DO admit that there are great similarities.
I think Hayden did an awesome job in AOTC and then went on to do an incredible job in LAAH.
The characters are similar in many ways.
Anakin starts off in AOTC as a very anxious, cocky, emotional, eager teen who suffers the loss of a parent and continues a downward spiral.
Sam starts off in LAAH as a very apathetic, cocky, emotionally suppressed teen who suffers the loss of a parent and uses the experience to become a better person. Sure, the characters start off and end up in different places, but there are many points where they cross.
George talks in the AOTC commentary about Anakin's inability to "let go" (of his mother, and I assume Padme later on) and deal with the changes in life.
Unlike Anakin, Sam is able to let go of his anger and become a better person.


As for "the motivation behind hiring Hayden", I remember some DVD clips of George Lucas and Robin Gurland but I can't accurately paraphrase them right now. I vaguely remember George raving about what a good actor Hayden is. And I remember Robin talking about Hayden's eyes. Beyond that, I'd have to watch the behind the scenes clips again for more details.

:)

stillakid
09-23-2003, 11:21 AM
Quite the opposite actually, I DO admit that there are great similarities.
I think Hayden did an awesome job in AOTC and then went on to do an incredible job in LAAH.
The characters are similar in many ways.
Anakin starts off in AOTC as a very anxious, cocky, emotional, eager teen who suffers the loss of a parent and continues a downward spiral.
Sam starts off in LAAH as a very apathetic, cocky, emotionally suppressed teen who suffers the loss of a parent and uses the experience to become a better person. Sure, the characters start off and end up in different places, but there are many points where they cross.
George talks in the AOTC commentary about Anakin's inability to "let go" (of his mother, and I assume Padme later on) and deal with the changes in life.
Unlike Anakin, Sam is able to let go of his anger and become a better person.


As for "the motivation behind hiring Hayden", I remember some DVD clips of George Lucas and Robin Gurland but I can't accurately paraphrase them right now. I vaguely remember George raving about what a good actor Hayden is. And I remember Robin talking about Hayden's eyes. Beyond that, I'd have to watch the behind the scenes clips again for more details.

:)

Here's the IMDB listing for him:

Other Side of Simple (2004) (pre-production)
Star Wars: Episode III (2005) (filming) .... Anakin Skywalker


Nailed Right In (2003)
Shattered Glass (2003) .... Stephen Glass
Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones (2002) .... Anakin Skywalker
... aka Attack of the Clones: The IMAX Experience (2002) (USA: IMAX version)
... aka Star Wars II (2002) (USA: promotional abbreviation)
... aka Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones (2002) (USA: video box title)
Life as a House (2001) .... Sam Monroe
Trapped in a Purple Haze (2000) (TV) .... Orin Krieg
"Higher Ground" (2000) TV Series .... Scott Barringer


Virgin Suicides, The (1999) .... Jake Hill Conley
... aka Sofia Coppola's the Virgin Suicides (2000) (USA: complete title)
Free Fall (1999) .... Patrick
... aka Angst über den Wolken (1999) (Germany)
Strike! (1998) (as Hayden Christiansen) .... Tinka's Date
... aka Hairy Bird, The (1998) (Australia) (USA: working title)
... aka All I Wanna Do (2000) (USA: new title)
... aka College femminile (1998) (Italy)
... aka Filles font la loi, Les (1998) (Canada: French title)
No Greater Love (1996) (TV) .... Teddy Winfield
... aka Danielle Steel's 'No Greater Love' (1996) (TV)
Street Law (1995) .... Young John Ryan
... aka Law of the Jungle (1995)
Harrison Bergeron (1995) (TV) .... Eric
... aka Kurt Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron (1995) (TV)
Love and Betrayal: The Mia Farrow Story (1995) (TV) .... Fletcher #2
In the Mouth of Madness (1995) .... Paper Boy
... aka John Carpenter's In the Mouth of Madness (1995) (USA: complete title)
"Family Passions" (1993) TV Series .... Skip McDeere
... aka "Macht der Leidenschaft" (1993) (Germany)

I'm going to assume confidently, that George most likely only saw The Virgin Suicides which just so happened to be directed by his ol' buddy's daughter, Sophia Coppola. Seems unlikely that George was flipping through the MOW's and happened across Hayden there.

I haven't seen VS so I can't really comment on Hayden, but I'd be willing to be he plays a young, dejected, angry teenager. If that is the case, then my argument will still stand, however with a different film as the "proof." When I get a couple hours to stand still, I'll go pick it up and take a look. :)

CropDuster
09-24-2003, 10:19 PM
I love the OT, not the SE, the originals. As for the two new ones, I like them. They are fun to watch for the lightsaber fights and character developments that take place, but their flaws and inconsistencies really bring them down. I was extremely excited about seeing TPM at the theater and was a little let down, then I was anticipating AOTC and was similarly let down. The problem was that the delicasy of the story didn't seem to be intact as it was before. More focus was put on creating a spectacle of eye candy and delving off into obscure topics, and it hurt the overall finished product. The other thing that really bugged me about them was their ridiculous titles. C'mon, The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. I just can't imagine what E3 will be titled!

Beast
09-24-2003, 10:24 PM
Yeah, and A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi are Shakespeare in comparison. All the titles for the movies are cheesy, that's part of the charm. That 'movie-serial' charm. If you're a fan of movie serials, titles like the 5 that have been used so far are commen. :p :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
09-25-2003, 12:04 AM
Yeah, and A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi are Shakespeare in comparison. All the titles for the movies are cheesy, that's part of the charm. That 'movie-serial' charm. If you're a fan of movie serials, titles like the 5 that have been used so far are commen. :p :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks


Hold the presses, I agree with Jar Jar. :D In fact, one of the better moments in TPM was when Hologram Maul steps into the light when Palpatine was in the conference call with the Nemodians. In true Saturday afternoon serial fashion, the music pipes in with a "DA Dum!" Cheesy? Yeah, a little bit, but that's kinda what he was going for.

To delve into this idea a bit further, oddly enough I've been thinking lately about the Saga in regard to the old time serials. It really seems as though Lucas is purposefully trying to dumb them down and make them ultra cheesy in just the same way that those (honestly bad) serials from back in the day were. Problem is that he made the OT films too good. They had a bit of that swashbuckling serial feel to them, but the stories weren't as poorly written as some of those old time serial stories were (and subsequently, the Prequels have been.)

So, yeah, the Prequel titles really do fit right in with the cheeseball serial thing he's got goin' on.

Beast
09-25-2003, 12:11 AM
The OT was groundbreaking for the time, but they were still ungodly cheesy, Stillakid. There is enough bad "DA Dum!" music cues there as well. And let's not mention Yoda, a rubber muppet. With Fozzie Bear's voice. There's just as much 'cheese factor' in the OT. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
09-25-2003, 03:04 AM
I'm going to assume confidently, that George most likely only saw The Virgin Suicides which just so happened to be directed by his ol' buddy's daughter, Sophia Coppola. Seems unlikely that George was flipping through the MOW's and happened across Hayden there.

I haven't seen VS so I can't really comment on Hayden, but I'd be willing to be he plays a young, dejected, angry teenager. If that is the case, then my argument will still stand, however with a different film as the "proof." When I get a couple hours to stand still, I'll go pick it up and take a look. :)

Sorry, you'd lose that bet. ;)

SPOILERS (as if anyone cares :rolleyes: ) :D

Hayden has very few scenes in Virgin Suicides. He wants in on Josh Hartnett's jackpot of getting to take a group of hot sisters to a dance. Hayden lobbies Josh while running wind sprints during football practice and later on you'll see him show up at James Woods and Kathleen Turner's house to pick up the girls. He's got one funny moment in the car when he pokes at a smoke ring from a cigarette. He says something like "don't let it die a virgin." ;)
Hayden looked young in this movie and not at all troubled.
Regardless, I rather enjoyed this movie. It's kinda weird but I liked it.

You may want to look up some old footage of the Canadian show Higher Ground in which Hayden played a drug troubled teen. I've not seen any episodes so I can't draw any comparisons. There might be. :)

Turambar
09-25-2003, 03:43 AM
Yeah, and A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi are Shakespeare in comparison. All the titles for the movies are cheesy, that's part of the charm. That 'movie-serial' charm. If you're a fan of movie serials, titles like the 5 that have been used so far are commen. :p :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

At least the OT titles are straight forward. I'm still not for certain what "The Phantom Menace" is. Sounds like a horror movie, but I've heard so many possible meanings of the title that I'm always left confused by it. I liked "Attack of the Clones" until after watching the movie a few times. Now, I find it misleading. It sounds like the clones are the bad guys. It'd be kind of like if in "The Empire Strikes Back" the empire came in at the end of the movie to save the day.
I know it's no big deal, but I would like to see more parallels since GL and Rick Mc talk about them so much.

2-1B
09-25-2003, 05:25 AM
I liked "Attack of the Clones" until after watching the movie a few times. Now, I find it misleading. It sounds like the clones are the bad guys.

They will be.
I don't think it's misleading, just more of a foreshadowing. The endless number of clones are an "attack" on the galaxy in that they will eventually be used to keep the citizens in line.
So what George told you was true. From a certain point of view. :D

stillakid
09-25-2003, 11:01 AM
The OT was groundbreaking for the time, but they were still ungodly cheesy, Stillakid. There is enough bad "DA Dum!" music cues there as well. And let's not mention Yoda, a rubber muppet. With Fozzie Bear's voice. There's just as much 'cheese factor' in the OT. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Hardly. The OT films were far more, um, I guess "serious" would be adequate, at least in comparison to the Prequels, which fall into that "playful" movie serial thing we're talking about. Not that there is anything wrong with either of those approachs, except that 1) these are all supposed to be part of the same saga and are supposed to "feel" the same, and 2) the OT films were written with far fewer "cheesy" moments and less plot incongruities. Had George started with the Prequels (as is), and continued to finish the series in this poorly written, but "serial-esque" style, we would have nothing as good as the OT to compare it to and we could all just "sit back and enjoy it for what it is." But he (with the help of Huyck, Katz, and Kasdan...and Kurz) set the bar very high early on and managed to miss hitting it or surpassing it again.

The "Da Dum" moments in the OT were NOT as pronounced and pointedly obvious as the one in TPM. I have no idea where you got that idea from, except as another way to defend the Prequels. Which moments in the OT are you talking about exactly? :confused:

And Yoda? I don't know what you were watching, but I still think that Frank Oz's "performance" and the execution on the puppet itself creates a truly believable character. Not once back then, nor today, do I feel myself pulled out of the story thinking, "Gosh, that looks like a rubber puppet that sounds like Grover." However, throughout AOTC, particularly on the close-ups, I was very conscious of the CG aspects of Yoda. It just wasn't as "real" looking mainly because, well, it wasn't.

stillakid
09-25-2003, 11:08 AM
Sorry, you'd lose that bet. ;)

SPOILERS (as if anyone cares :rolleyes: ) :D

Hayden has very few scenes in Virgin Suicides. He wants in on Josh Hartnett's jackpot of getting to take a group of hot sisters to a dance. Hayden lobbies Josh while running wind sprints during football practice and later on you'll see him show up at James Woods and Kathleen Turner's house to pick up the girls. He's got one funny moment in the car when he pokes at a smoke ring from a cigarette. He says something like "don't let it die a virgin." ;)
Hayden looked young in this movie and not at all troubled.
Regardless, I rather enjoyed this movie. It's kinda weird but I liked it.

You may want to look up some old footage of the Canadian show Higher Ground in which Hayden played a drug troubled teen. I've not seen any episodes so I can't draw any comparisons. There might be. :)


Thanks for doing that research for me. :) Okay, so not that one. But there has to be something out there. Maybe it was Higher Ground. See, the thing about casting is that rarely are actors cast because a casting director or director sees how versatile they are. Usually, an actor gets considered because of some part they had played in the past which looks a lot like the one the new movie needs. It's called getting pigeon-holed and it happens to actors all the time, as well as directors, DP's, and writers. Add that to Lucas's legendary lack of directing (directing actors) and it only makes sense that Hayden played some kind of bipolar dejected teenager which is what attracted George to him in the first place.

All conjecture of course on my part, but I can't think of any other reason why 1) first, he would be picked for the part (because his "personality" isn't very "Vader-like" at all, et al), and 2) secondly why he did such a bad job at it.

2-1B
09-25-2003, 12:58 PM
Thank goodness Lucas had Hyuck and Katz's "help" on Howard the Duck, eh ? ;)

:D

CropDuster
09-25-2003, 01:15 PM
And Yoda? I don't know what you were watching, but I still think that Frank Oz's "performance" and the execution on the puppet itself creates a truly believable character. Not once back then, nor today, do I feel myself pulled out of the story thinking, "Gosh, that looks like a rubber puppet that sounds like Grover." However, throughout AOTC, particularly on the close-ups, I was very conscious of the CG aspects of Yoda. It just wasn't as "real" looking mainly because, well, it wasn't.
I agree. I don't think the cg characters look real. I mean they just don't have the right "feel" they seem too cartoonish, but I guess maybe some people think they look more real. I guess they can get off on anime or cg's such as Lara Croft :eek: . I'm joking. All I'm saying is that the digital stuff just does't do it for me. Am I in the minority here?
jus' keepin' it real...

stillakid
09-25-2003, 04:37 PM
Thank goodness Lucas had Hyuck and Katz's "help" on Howard the Duck, eh ? ;)

:D

Not everything can be perfect, can it? ;)

But seriously, trying to drag the point through the mud with one "problem" isn't fair. Their track record up to that point with George was pretty good. Besides, HOWARD was in '86, years after Lucas used their help with American Grafitti and ANH.

During that time, really none of "his" films did that well nor were really well received critically or publicly. Labyrinth, Willow, and Tucker might be the exceptions to a point, but unlike something like More American Grafitti, he was a lot more "hands off" for those. There is an uncanny coincidence that whenever he gets too involved, particularly with the script stage, problems crop up. Howard was one of his pet projects...and it showed. The guy has some interesting...and sometimes great...ideas, but he can't write a solid screenplay to save his life.

2-1B
09-26-2003, 04:25 AM
Hey, I liked Howard the Duck. :D
I just bought a wax box of 36 packs of Topps' Howard the Duck set for $5 at a card show last weekend. :)

stillakid
09-26-2003, 11:27 AM
Hey, I liked Howard the Duck. :D
I just bought a wax box of 36 packs of Topps' Howard the Duck set for $5 at a card show last weekend. :)


They made cards for that?