PDA

View Full Version : Why didn't Jedi notice Jango/Dooku/Clones connection? (merged)



DarthChuckMc
09-21-2003, 06:44 PM
Ok...

Based on Obi-wan's converstion with Yoda and Mace, JANGO was the template for the Clone Army.

The Jedi know that Dooku is the leader of the Seperatist Army.

When the Jedi Army and Yoda show up on Geonosis, DOOKU and JANGO are together.

If the leader of the Seperatists is hanging out with the template of the Republic Army, wouldn't you find it a bit curious?

Sith Lord 0498
09-21-2003, 08:53 PM
Ok...

Based on Obi-wan's converstion with Yoda and Mace, JANGO was the template for the Clone Army.

The Jedi know that Dooku is the leader of the Seperatist Army.

When the Jedi Army and Yoda show up on Geonosis, DOOKU and JANGO are together.

If the leader of the Seperatists is hanging out with the template of the Republic Army, wouldn't you find it a bit curious?

That's a really good point. I never thought about that before actually. But that does remind me of something I've been thinking about lately that kinda addresses the same issue. While I know this could be considered EU, it is part of the Clone Wars multimedia crossover.

In the young adult "Boba Fett" book series (specifically #3 Maze of Deception), Boba tries to get out a dangerous situation by revealing to San Hill's organization that Dooku and Tyranus are the same person. What interests me and relates to the topic is this: the Banking Clan rep whom Boba is speaking to acknowledges a rumor going around that a man named Tyranus commissioned the clone army.

Here is the specific passage

BOBA: "Did you know that a man named Tyranus recruited a bounty hunter named Jango Fett for the Kaminoans to use to create the clone army for the Republic?"

KOS: "I'd heard things like that."

Put that rumor floating around the galaxy together with the fact that Dooku and Jango are together on Geonosis. That should really raise some flags with the Jedi, don't you think?

JediTricks
09-21-2003, 09:47 PM
Oh man! That's an interesting point, sorta brings Yoda's big scene saving the Jedi bacon on Geonosis into a bit of an odd frame of reference. Or maybe he didn't put 2 and 2 together because he was in such a rush, but at the end of the film his comments about the battle not being a victory are a subtle reference to this (though I am afraid that's not the impression I got at all). And all this is forgiving that the Jedi don't know that Tyranus is Dooku! This feels to me like one of those Millennium Falcon-sized plot holes we hear so much about, tho' maybe it'll be addressed in Ep 3 (I doubt it).

Kidhuman
09-21-2003, 10:59 PM
If ya got em, use em. Alot could of happened in that ten year period. They knew they were supposed to be for the republic and thats who got them. They didnt have time to think about it on Geonosis. Afterwards they might put 2 and 2 together. BUt like I said, if they got control of em, use em for now. Its like finding 100 dollars in TRU. Use it and dont look back

scruffziller
09-23-2003, 07:00 PM
Yeah...........

I suppose in all the heat of battle Obi never really got a chance to bring that point up to the nessesary parties.

I wonder if it will be addressed some how in the stories to come. Because Yoda went to Kamino and then came back with the army without knowing what was going on with Jango and Dooku.

Darth Jax
09-23-2003, 11:00 PM
would be hard for mace to miss the fact that jango appears to be working both sides of the fence, being dooku's henchman and the genetic host for the clones. could provide several books worth of adventures detailing syfo dias' involvement in the creation of the clones and tyranus obtaining jango as the mold. could either be told at that time or as a mystery as a jedi or padawan tries to unravel the clues of the past with the clone wars raging around them. course GL will hopefully explain more fully in ep 3 and be able to effectively tie the 2 trilogies together.

Kidhuman
09-23-2003, 11:21 PM
Ya know Jango was a bounty hunter and could of just done it for the money. It doesnt matter what involvement if any he had at the time. He could of been recruited later on after the initial cloning.

Darkross
09-24-2003, 11:28 AM
It doesn't really matter...since Jango was probably the template for many other clone armies that weren't purchased by the Republic. He doesn't care as long as he gets his money. The Kaminoans probably figured that it would be easiest to get the formula right for one template (customizing the clones however) than to have several donors and trying to customize each.

odb
09-27-2003, 07:03 PM
I think it been missed that both Jango and Dooku and the Republic are being ordered/manipulated by Sidious. Sidious is merely playing the two sides off against each other. By controlling both the Separtists and Republic's forces Sidious is making sure one side wins, ie the side he wants to. Arming both the Seperatists and the Republic so as to escalate the conflict and allow him to seize control in the resulting confusion.

Whether or not the events unfurled as Sidious planned or he merely adapted his plan to the actions isn't clear. But it is clear that Jango works for Dooku who works for Sidious, so essenially its not a surprise that they're together on Geonosis. Plus I think at the end of the film we're supposed to be lead to think that Yoda beleives that they are being manipulated but he doesn't know how or by who.

stillakid
09-27-2003, 11:09 PM
Okay, first of all it's sepAratists, not sepEratists. sigh.


Anyhow, yeah you're right. The only two people that really should realize anything regarding this on Geonosis are Obi Wan and Yoda. Obi Wan has seen the clones and knows Jango's role with that piece of the puzzle. He also knows full well that Jango is buddies with Dooku.

In the interim, Obi radioed back to the old folks home to let them know where Jango bolted to. It's not likely that any of the Jedi were aware that Dooku was there, which leads to...

...Yoda, who flies in with the Clone Army. The question is, did he happen to have time to notice that Jango was standing next to Dooku? Although, now that I say that, it isn't even likely that Yoda would know Jango from a hole in the ground, so it doesn't matter.

So I guess that it leaves Obi Wan as the only one who would understand the link between Dooku's nefarious plan and the Clone Army, at that particular time of the battle. Not that he could do anything about it anyway.

HOWEVER, after all was said and done and they were back at the firehouse on Coruscant, one would think that Obi would have typed up a quick FYI memo with his concerns about this dubious link between the Clone Army and Dooku, which Palpatine was so keen on getting in the first place. As JT said, Yoda does have misgivings, but the way it plays out onscreen isn't really pointed toward the specifics of this connection, rather more to a more general bad feeling about it all.

As I've said before, much of Palpatine's plans, beginning back in TPM, have come to fruition out of sheer luck. Time after time, his initial plan has either failed (as in trying to get Amidala to sign the treaty) forcing him to go to a plan B, or his plan has relied completely on dumb-luck to bring it to the next stage (as in having Obi Wan discover the Clones and then, out of sheer coincidence, necessitating Yoda to go get the Clone Army to exact a rescue...none of which would have happened had Obi not succeeded in following Jango to the surface of Geonosis.)

Some die-hard fans may think that this is just really good complicated maneuvering, but as Darth Chuck has illustrated, if you put any kind of thought into any of this, it becomes obvious that the emperor has no clothes. Cotton candy has more going for it than this superficial attempt at a plot. :(

DarthChuckMc
09-27-2003, 11:48 PM
Okay, first of all it's sepAratists, not sepEratists. sigh.



Wow...thanks for pointing that out! I must have forgotten to use my Stillakid OFFICIAL Spellchecker. :rolleyes:

welp...gess I shood be hedin' bak ta skool an' lern how ta spell. :stupid:

Ok everyone...I nominate Stillakid as SSG's official grammar coach, that way we can all be as smart as he is...and not look lile total dumb s***s when our master is present.

Kidhuman
09-28-2003, 09:59 AM
...Yoda, who flies in with the Clone Army. The question is, did he happen to have time to notice that Jango was standing next to Dooku? Although, now that I say that, it isn't even likely that Yoda would know Jango from a hole in the ground, so it doesn't matter.


Jango was dead by the time Yoda got there.

sith_killer_99
09-28-2003, 11:44 AM
I gotta throw in with kidhuman on this one. Jango is a Bounty Hunter, hired muscle as far as anyone is concerned. He works for the highest bidder.

Who's to say the Separatists even knew Jango was the template, the Clones were hidden away on Kamino until the Battle of Geonosis.

It seems like a stretch, but remember Yoda's comment about Dooku using lies and deception. Maybe Yoda figured Dooku twisted Jango after the fact.

Like they say, war makes strange bed fellows.

stillakid
09-28-2003, 07:11 PM
Wow...thanks for pointing that out! I must have forgotten to use my Stillakid OFFICIAL Spellchecker. :rolleyes:

welp...gess I shood be hedin' bak ta skool an' lern how ta spell. :stupid:

Ok everyone...I nominate Stillakid as SSG's official grammar coach, that way we can all be as smart as he is...and not look lile total dumb s***s when our master is present.

Don't like being corrected? Do it right the first time then instead of trying to make me look like a bad guy for spreading a little literacy around. :rolleyes: But I didn't mean to single you out specifically. That particular word gets trashed on a regular basis here and elsewhere. In fact, I just read a variation of the mistake in a different thread. I think it was "Separitists." Look, I'm not above reproach and make mistakes as much as anyone else, but I also keep www.dictionary.com handy. When something like correct spelling is so easy to do, why not make the effort? If nothing else, a post which is grammatically proper and correctly spelled lends more credibility to an argument or opinion than one that ain't. ;)

Maybe next time, you might try thanking someone who is just trying to help, instead of lashing out with a tantrum.

2-1B
09-28-2003, 08:51 PM
The first concern in AOTC seems to be finding out who is trying to kill Padme. After Zam gets killed, the Jedi eventually learn that Jango is behind it. So when they see Jango with Dooku, that should confirm who was really behind Padme's assassination attempt.

Okay, that works. But what about the order of the clones? Even if Dooku is directly linked to the clones through Jango, where's the plothole? The idea could be for the Separatists to throw the galaxy into turmoil - what better way than to create an oppressing force against yourself, thus giving you justification for self-defense ? It may seem suicidal, yet it could be a great way to break the strength of the Republic by tricking good-intentioned systems into seeing the Republic in the wrong light.

Obi-Wan "had to admit" that without the Clones they would not have had a victory . . . but Yoda knows it was far from a victory.
If they connect the dots properly, they'll find that Dooku ordered a hit on Padme to try to force a rush to war. (All this in a roundabout way since Padme was AGAINST an Army - but her death could have incited others to vote hastily in favor of war).
Likewise, they might assume that Dooku *probably* used Jango to order up a batch of clones in the name of the Republic. All Dooku would need is for word to get out through the grapevine that The Republic was ramping up for war. Of course, it is then "necessary" for the Separatists to also prepare for war. Justification.

All this puts the blame squarely on Dooku while Palpatine is the one really pulling the strings. :)

JediTricks
09-28-2003, 10:00 PM
There's not looking a gift-horse in the mouth and then there's just turning a blind eye to a very suspicious situation. Mace and Yoda are concerned about Palpatine getting his ability to create an army to fight the separatists who may or may not have been led by Dooku (the Jedi later learn they were); it's brought to the Jedi's attention that Tyranus is the guy who created this clone army for the Republic by using a bounty hunter called Jango Fett; Yoda goes to investigate these clone troops; Mace knows Dooku and Jango are in cahoots from the beginning of the battle on Geonosis and knows Dooku is leading the separatists; Yoda knows Dooku is a Sith.

By the end of the film, aren't they at least a little curious to know why Palpatine's instant and fantastically-timely army is based on the genetic code of a bounty hunter who is in league with a Sith that is controlling the enemy of the Republic which caused Palpatine's instant army in the first place? No, of course not, the Jedi are dullards who simply go from point A to B to C without any concern as to motives apparently; or the alternative is that the Jedi who were so concerned with these matters in the beginning of the film are now totally unconcerned with these things by the end of the film.

Nope, sorry, doesn't hold water.

2-1B
09-29-2003, 01:51 AM
Of course they're "dullards" - they managed to get themselves killed off to the brink of extinction, didn't they? :D

Palpatine is a politician and he must have sold them on his good intentions. Also, Sifo-Dyas (whoever the hell he might have been :crazed: ) had his name dropped pretty liberally with the Kaminoans . . . Dooku being a fallen Jedi is a definite possibility as an impostor.
Palpatine's army isn't THAT fantastically timed, after all the very same issue was before the Senate already. Granted, not the creation of that specific clone army . . . but an army nonetheless.
Padme was the leader of the resistance movement and given her shared history with Palpatine they have every reason to trust him. At the beginning of AOTC, he "didn't know how much longer he could hold off the vote."

:)

stillakid
09-29-2003, 01:28 PM
Mace knows Dooku and Jango are in cahoots from the beginning of the battle on Geonosis and knows Dooku is leading the separatists.

I'm not sure about this. The only "good guy" that knows who Jango Fett is (and what he looks like), is Obi Wan. When Mace holds the bounty hunter off up on the gantry, there's no way he could possibly know he he was, but it was obvious enough that he (Jango) was well-armed and the most likely to give Mace immediate trouble, which is probably why his blade was pointed at Jango to begin with. But, no, no Jedi there could have known which "bad guy" Jango was at that time.

But regardless, the Jedi had enough information from Obi Wan at that moment that they should have been able to figure out this Dooku/Clone army link from the get go. In fact, when those Gunships came roaring in, the Jedi should have initially been ducking for cover, figuring that Dooku's (Jango's) Clone Army was coming in to finish the battle. Of course, no such reaction was evident and they jumped on board with nary a shrug. Put that together with Palpatine's clear desire to rush out an "Army of the Republic," and the Jedi should have been heading for the hills almost immediately.

Caesar's right...no wonder the Republic fell...these guys were either really bad at putting obvious pieces together or they were just really dumb.

Kidhuman
09-29-2003, 02:09 PM
The Jedi had no reason to duck for cover. Padme pointed up and they all saw Yoda. Tehn they started taking out the droid army.

stillakid
09-29-2003, 02:16 PM
The Jedi had no reason to duck for cover. Padme pointed up and they all saw Yoda. Tehn they started taking out the droid army.


Yeah, the response time was pretty quick, but at the very least, there should have been a lot of confused looks. At the most, at least one of the Jedi (Obi or Mace most likely) should have asked out loud, "Um, isn't this Dooku's Army?" But noooooo. Everybody just hops on board like they've all been through it a million times. No questions. No concerns.

Kidhuman
09-29-2003, 02:57 PM
Its all about the force and reaching out to it. They sensed Yoda and were cool with it. All's Padme had to do was follow everyone else.

odb
09-29-2003, 04:17 PM
[QUOTE=stillakid]
But regardless, the Jedi had enough information from Obi Wan at that moment that they should have been able to figure out this Dooku/Clone army link from the get go. In fact, when those Gunships came roaring in, the Jedi should have initially been ducking for cover, figuring that Dooku's (Jango's) Clone Army was coming in to finish the battle. Of course, no such reaction was evident and they jumped on board with nary a shrug. Put that together with Palpatine's clear desire to rush out an "Army of the Republic," and the Jedi should have been heading for the hills almost immediately.
QUOTE]

Where'd you make that link :confused:

I don't see where the link between Dooku and the Clone army is made. Dooku is the leader of the Separatists, so its no surprise that he's with the Droid army. Also they don't know that Dooku is linked with Sidious, as far as the Jedi or anyone is concerned Dooku is merely acting on his own beliefs.

As far as Jango is concerned he is simply from the Jedi viewpoint a hired gun. Who after attacking Obi Wan scarpers off to Dooku in hope of sanctuary. There is no link between Jango and Dooku as far as any of the Jedi are concerned, Obi Wan merely reports that Jango goes to Geonosis, is he fleeing or meeting with his master/employer. He never reports to the Jedi that he is in fact working for Dooku.

The Clone army is supposedly meant for the Republic, ordered by Syfo Dias, we are lead to believe that he was a Jedi. So again there is no real link to the dark side. Yoda upon hearing that a army is massing on Geonosis, takes his chance and merely moves into the gap where they should be a leader and leads the Clones to Geonosis. Therefore not waiting for the Republic to move in and take control.

The only one that should be worried is Obi Wan as he's seen the link between Jango and Dooku. But its safe to assume that Yoda has sent out a force message to all the Jedi that he is arriving with a new army. Besides which the gunships have a sodding great Republic insignia on the side of them. :rolleyes:

Plus which if you're surrounded by several hundred droids and a few gunships land without blowing you away, you'd take your chances on the gunship, rather than certain death in the Arena.

Basically Sidious is using others to create an arms escalation, without being discovered. The creation of the Clone Army in 'secret' is to allow the war to kick off sooner and allow him to gain power sooner.

stillakid
09-29-2003, 05:57 PM
But regardless, the Jedi had enough information from Obi Wan at that moment that they should have been able to figure out this Dooku/Clone army link from the get go. In fact, when those Gunships came roaring in, the Jedi should have initially been ducking for cover, figuring that Dooku's (Jango's) Clone Army was coming in to finish the battle. Of course, no such reaction was evident and they jumped on board with nary a shrug. Put that together with Palpatine's clear desire to rush out an "Army of the Republic," and the Jedi should have been heading for the hills almost immediately.



Where'd you make that link :confused:

I don't see where the link between Dooku and the Clone army is made. Dooku is the leader of the Separatists, so its no surprise that he's with the Droid army. Also they don't know that Dooku is linked with Sidious, as far as the Jedi or anyone is concerned Dooku is merely acting on his own beliefs.

1) Zam attempts to assassinate Padme, who is coming to vote against the building of an "army of the Republic." Slightly before spilling the beans, she herself is assassinated by a strange rocketman with a strange DART.

2) Because of the DART, Obi discovers a secret army of clones being built (grown) on a planet.

3) Obi is introduced to a guy named Jango on the planet with the clone army. On the platform, Obi (should anyway) realize that this is the same guy who fired the dart into Zam.

So at this point we've got Obi Wan knowing that Jango is literally linked with this Clone Army and also is part of the plot to kill Padme who was in opposition to just such a military force.

4) Obi follows Jango to another planet which has Dooku on it as well as a meeting of conspirators against the Republic.

At this point, Obi should realize that Dooku knows full well about the Clone Army and about the attempts on Padme's life.

If nothing else, these pieces of the puzzle point very vividly to the fact that Dooku and/or this group of conspirators are behind the creation of the Clone Army. Bottom line: the Clone Army is for them.

So, with that in mind, when Yoda hops on a bus to go check it out for himself, it NEVER in a MILLION YEARS could have been part of Palpatine's plan that the little gnome would load these Xerox's onto ships and use them in a rescue attempt on Geonosis which wouldn't have been necessary at all had Jango actually managed to kill Obi Wan on the landing platform or in the asteroid field. One could argue that the DART was purposefully used to lead the Jedi to Kamino, but then again, that was a PLAN B because Padme was supposed to die in an anonymous explosion in the very first sequence of the film. Plus it is very doubtful that Zam was actually supposed to be caught so that Jango could fire the Kamino DART into her thus leading Obi Wan to the planet to discover the secret clone army so that he could later be captured necessitating Yoda to go pick up the clone army for the rescue attempt which would set "the Republic" in a battle with the Separatists. Rube Goldberg would be proud. :D


As far as Jango is concerned he is simply from the Jedi viewpoint a hired gun. Who after attacking Obi Wan scarpers off to Dooku in hope of sanctuary. There is no link between Jango and Dooku as far as any of the Jedi are concerned, Obi Wan merely reports that Jango goes to Geonosis, is he fleeing or meeting with his master/employer. He never reports to the Jedi that he is in fact working for Dooku.
No link between Jango and Dooku? You just said yourself that he scampers off to Dooku for sanctuary. How much more of a link do you want? Yes, as I said, at that time Obi Wan is the ONLY one who knows what Jango looks like (so, who he is), but he did manage to fire off a quick memo informing the old folks about where Jango went and who he saw once he got there. The link is obvious and the ramifications should have been as well.


The Clone army is supposedly meant for the Republic, ordered by Syfo Dias, we are lead to believe that he was a Jedi. So again there is no real link to the dark side. Yoda upon hearing that a army is massing on Geonosis, takes his chance and merely moves into the gap where they should be a leader and leads the Clones to Geonosis. Therefore not waiting for the Republic to move in and take control.
Except that before Yoda ever went to Kamino, he heard Obi's report and should have had the wherewithal to figure out that MYSTERIOUS DEAD JEDI+SECRET ARMY+BOUNTY HUNTER LINKED TO ASSASSINATION ATTEMPTS IS THE TEMPLATE FOR THE ARMY+BOUNTY HUNTER GOES TO DOOKU FOR SANCTUARY=SOMETHING'S UP WITH THIS ARMY. The Kaminians say that it's for the Republic, but anything could have been written on the invoice. Why would Yoda automatically believe that given everything else that he supposedly knows about the situation? He should be smarter than that.


The only one that should be worried is Obi Wan as he's seen the link between Jango and Dooku. But its safe to assume that Yoda has sent out a force message to all the Jedi that he is arriving with a new army. Besides which the gunships have a sodding great Republic insignia on the side of them. :rolleyes:
A what? Did you say "a Force message"? What the hell is that? "Quick, Midi's, help me send out a Force message across the galaxy! Shoot, is it long short long long? Or long long short short long? Crap, I can never remember."

The insignia? Sure, by then, but as I said, Yoda should have been seeing red flags about this "army" long before he ever got his feet wet on Kamino. Yes, there are Republic decals on the ships, but why doesn't anyone question it given the dubious links between Jango, Dooku, and the assassination plot against Padme?


Plus which if you're surrounded by several hundred droids and a few gunships land without blowing you away, you'd take your chances on the gunship, rather than certain death in the Arena.
Well, yeah, there's that. I agree. Once they saw Yoda in one of the ships and they saw the ships blowing away the bad guys, hopping into the back wasn't such a bad option. But I mentioned that before. Nobody says a word about it despite everything they should know by this point in the story. Why not? Did George just think we wouldn't notice? Maybe the bright shiny objects on screen would distract us from paying attention to the story part of the thing. "Oh yeah, the story! I almost forgot." :rolleyes:


Basically Sidious is using others to create an arms escalation, without being discovered. The creation of the Clone Army in 'secret' is to allow the war to kick off sooner and allow him to gain power sooner.

You are absolutely 100% correct. The question that Darth Chuck brought up is how? What George was trying to do is pretty evident. But once again, it's those annoying little details that aren't making a whole lot of sense.

Kidhuman
09-29-2003, 08:03 PM
So, with that in mind, when Yoda hops on a bus to go check it out for himself, it NEVER in a MILLION YEARS could have been part of Palpatine's plan that the little gnome would load these Xerox's onto ships and use them in a rescue attempt on Geonosis which wouldn't have been necessary at all had Jango actually managed to kill Obi Wan on the landing platform or in the asteroid field.


They knew Obi wasnt killed on the dock or asteroid field because he sent that transmission to Anakin that he was on Geonosis. They knew he got attacked by something, but not what exactly. They just armed up and went there.



But, what I dont understand is that the Jedi, sans Yoda, showed up at a specific time. But Yoda who went to Kamino, loaded up the troops, and flew back to Geonosis, showed up ..............lets say an hour after the Jedi did. How?

JediTricks
09-29-2003, 10:46 PM
I'm not sure about this. The only "good guy" that knows who Jango Fett is (and what he looks like), is Obi Wan. When Mace holds the bounty hunter off up on the gantry, there's no way he could possibly know he he was, but it was obvious enough that he (Jango) was well-armed and the most likely to give Mace immediate trouble, which is probably why his blade was pointed at Jango to begin with. But, no, no Jedi there could have known which "bad guy" Jango was at that time.I didn't say he knew that bounty hunter WAS Jango at the time, merely that he knew immediately that Dooku was in cahoots with that guy who turned out to be Jango. If we're going on the "they're dumb" platform, then I suppose allowing for Mace to not have done ANY research into the name "Jango Fett" before heading off to Geonosis would also be a reasonable assumption as well.

Honestly, for a group that is supposed to be so deep and investigative and spiritual as the Jedi are, these guys take an awful lot on face value.

stillakid
09-30-2003, 01:44 PM
They knew Obi wasnt killed on the dock or asteroid field because he sent that transmission to Anakin that he was on Geonosis. They knew he got attacked by something, but not what exactly. They just armed up and went there.

Uh, yeah...did I imply something different? My statement that you quoted doesn't even have anything to do with whether or not the Jedi knew about the attacks. :confused:



But, what I dont understand is that the Jedi, sans Yoda, showed up at a specific time. But Yoda who went to Kamino, loaded up the troops, and flew back to Geonosis, showed up ..............lets say an hour after the Jedi did. How?
"Little chocolate doughnuts." ;)

odb
09-30-2003, 03:47 PM
Ok first off the Clone army at no point is ever intended for Dooku or the Separatists. Dooku is effectively in control of the Droid Army and all the Separatists allies and systems, so why would he need a Clone Army :confused:

Dooku is also controlled by Sidious. Sidious needs to create an opposing army to the growing Droid Army to kick off his war, so therefore he using a pseudonym (aka Syfo Dias) secretly creates an army, ie the Clones. His grand plan is to then kill off Padme, as she is the main opposer to the creation of an army. Using Jango, a proven veteran to remove Padme and subsequentially blaming the Separatists for it allows the creation of an Army all nice and legally. Then in the ensuing chaos and disorder from an all out war Papaltine/Sidious can declare Marshall law and impose himself as the supreme leader with an unexpectedly large Clone Army (Afterall the Army was started before he received the official go ahead).

Plus the fact that the Droid Army is shown to be a poor force in battle after the showing at Naboo, means the Clone Army stands a good chance of winning (plus judging from the Stormtrooper/Clonetrooper similarities looks like they do).

Jango is used as the template as he is a proven veteran, plus you've got him on the payroll so you might as well use his skills. Which is why he is used to try to remove Padme. Being a Pro he used someone else and when they failed prevented them from talking (the killing of Zam). He should have had his tracks covered by the removal of Dart's origins from the Jedi Databanks (possibly pointing to an inside man), however Obi Wan and Dexter got round this. Therefore Jango was in theory quite safe from discovery, however Obi Wan appears and Jango decides to leave, whether or not he was told to do so is not clear.

In his defence where would you go after being attacked by a Jedi, Coruscant, where there are hundreds of the buggers, or to a Separatist Planet, does Obi Wan even know if Dooku's on the planet, where they aren't any. It could be the actions of a genius or that of a desperate man on the run. For Obi Wan to make a dead cert connection between Dooku and Jango on the mere flimsy evidence doesn't really cut it. Plus the fact that Jango thinks Obi Wan is toast in the Asteroid field so probably lets his guard down. For an analogy if a bank robber scarppers off to Italy after an abortive bank raid does that make him an member of the Maffia?

Sidious' plan was never to left Obi Wan stumble across the Clone but rather through Dooku, the Droids and the Separatists allow the pre emptive strike of assassinating Padme and maybe a few attacks on outlying systems. Then once enough time has gone by (to convince bystanders there weren't ordered before hand) release the Clones to wipe out the Separatists, blame the Jedi for the mess and then release the now numerous (see the dialogue between Obi Wan and the Kaminians) Clones on the Galaxy and seize power unopposed.

You forget that the viewer has the benefit of seeing all the sides of the story while the characters don't. We know that Jango and Dooku are on the same side from the intro and background. Plus the Jedi are being clouded by the darkside and aren't able to predict the future as before.

Seeing an Army that has no Generals or allegiance Yoda moves to counter the threat presented by the Droid Army on Geonosis, smart move if you ask me. For the 'Force Message', I'll admit it didn't come across well. Maybe a better wording would have been a telepathic message from Yoda, afterall we see Vader talk to Luke in ESB this way. Therefore if a relatively untrained Jedi and pick up this messages, why can't Yoda and Mace, not to mention other Jedi, who are fully trained pick up the same message when sent from a Jedi Master pretty much at the height of his powers?

I think we're also supposed to not be sure of the exact details and everything will be revealed in EPIII. I'm really hoping that this is all tied up in EPIII by a nice little speech by Palpatine, kinda like the one in ROTJ where he reveals the Rebels have been lead into a trap. But I'm not holding my breath.

As for Yoda turning up in the nick of time, I dunno the Force :confused: :confused:

Kidhuman
09-30-2003, 05:19 PM
"Little chocolate doughnuts." ;)


They are good but offers no insight.


As to the previous quote, I misread it. My bad.

stillakid
09-30-2003, 06:26 PM
Ok first off the Clone army at no point is ever intended for Dooku or the Separatists. Dooku is effectively in control of the Droid Army and all the Separatists allies and systems, so why would he need a Clone Army :confused:
EXACTLY! You figured that out, so why didn't the Jedi ask the same question when the Clone Army/Jango/Dooku link was established?



In his defence where would you go after being attacked by a Jedi, Coruscant, where there are hundreds of the buggers, or to a Separatist Planet, does Obi Wan even know if Dooku's on the planet, where they aren't any. It could be the actions of a genius or that of a desperate man on the run. For Obi Wan to make a dead cert connection between Dooku and Jango on the mere flimsy evidence doesn't really cut it. Plus the fact that Jango thinks Obi Wan is toast in the Asteroid field so probably lets his guard down. For an analogy if a bank robber scarppers off to Italy after an abortive bank raid does that make him an member of the Maffia?
Obi followed Jango to a planet and then subsquently observed Dooku on the same planet in a meeting with the Separatists. Then later, Obi Wan plainly sees Jango standing next to Dooku. What more evidence of a connection do you need? These aren't just random "planets" with lots to do and places to go. Geonosis is the home of the Droid Factory, et al. Obi Wan tracks Slave I to the surface into the installation which has the Droid Army, Dooku, and the Separatists in it. So yes, Jango running off to "Italy" makes him a part of the "mafia."


Sidious' plan was never to left Obi Wan stumble across the Clone but rather through Dooku, the Droids and the Separatists allow the pre emptive strike of assassinating Padme and maybe a few attacks on outlying systems. Then once enough time has gone by (to convince bystanders there weren't ordered before hand) release the Clones to wipe out the Separatists, blame the Jedi for the mess and then release the now numerous (see the dialogue between Obi Wan and the Kaminians) Clones on the Galaxy and seize power unopposed.

You forget that the viewer has the benefit of seeing all the sides of the story while the characters don't. We know that Jango and Dooku are on the same side from the intro and background. Plus the Jedi are being clouded by the darkside and aren't able to predict the future as before.
Seeing the future has nothing to do with it. Seeing what's right in front of their faces is the problem. The link between Jango, the Clone Army and Dooku is obvious. While you're correct in saying that the characters don't know what's going on in the big picture, they never once are bothered by this connection. Why not?

You bring up another question. I like your assessment of Palpatine's original plan, but after the second assassination attempt, he let go of Plan A (trying to kill off Padme), and went with Plan B (send her away and get the vote passed anyway). So while an assassination upon a beautiful and likeable woman might have been an adequate spark to justify Palpatine pulling the Clone Army out of the woodwork, what exactly would the new justification be now that he isn't trying to kill her anymore? True, in the end he got what he wanted (the Clone Army attacking the Separatists) but that was all luck and happenstance. (And besides, how could he possibly explain to anyone else how this Clone Army just happened to be ready to go at the precise moment when it was needed? Nobody ever addresses that either.)


Seeing an Army that has no Generals or allegiance Yoda moves to counter the threat presented by the Droid Army on Geonosis, smart move if you ask me. For the 'Force Message', I'll admit it didn't come across well. Maybe a better wording would have been a telepathic message from Yoda, afterall we see Vader talk to Luke in ESB this way. Therefore if a relatively untrained Jedi and pick up this messages, why can't Yoda and Mace, not to mention other Jedi, who are fully trained pick up the same message when sent from a Jedi Master pretty much at the height of his powers?
Ah, sure, okay. Why not. :)

odb
10-10-2003, 04:24 PM
OK, I have rewatched AOTC recently and noticed several things:

1 Obi Wan follows Jango to Geonosis. Upon landing he never sees Jango with Dooku until the Arena where Jango is standing behind Dooku. Can Obi-Wan see Jango, probably not.

2 When Dooku is asked about Jango he flatly denies any involvement with Jango and lays out his plan to rid the galaxy of the Sith.

3 Before leaving to confront the Separatists at Geonosis, Yoda tells Mace he is going to get the Clone Army.

4 Jar Jar is tricked into giving Palpatine power over the Senate.

5 They are not trying to Kill Padme to stop her Political objections to an Army but to make the Trade Federation sign to the Separatist cause. In effect to please Nute Gunray.

So with all this there is no reason for the Jedi to look at all worried when the Clones swoop down into the Arena as they have all been pre-warned by Yoda that he would turn up with them, (apart from Obi Wan, Anakin and Padme obiviously).

Secondly Obi Wan never sees any contact between Jango and Dooku before sending his report. So therefore has no concrete evidence as too link the two. Strangely a planet is a big place and to assume the two are together is a bold step, after Darth Sidious is hiding on the same planet as the Jedi Council. This then takes a back seat to the fact that Dooku is assembling a Droid Army and signing numerous systems and federations to his cause. This with the fact that Obi Wan is due to be executed in the Arena forces the Jedi to go to Geonosis. An attempt to stop the conflict before it starts, that in effect kicks off the whole War.

Thirdly the Jedi know of the existence of the Sith but they don't know that he is in effect controlling the Senate, as revealed by Dooku to Obi Wan after Obi is captured. They know one is operating but what can they do. Sit by and allow the Separatist to run amoke with their Droid Army or oppose it with their newly found Clone Army. They are being forced to 'play' by Sidious as they have no choice. Plus the whole sequence of events unfolds too quickly for people to stop and question strenuous links between a bounty hunter and a fallen Jedi

stillakid
10-10-2003, 11:55 PM
1 Obi Wan follows Jango to Geonosis. Upon landing he never sees Jango with Dooku until the Arena where Jango is standing behind Dooku. Can Obi-Wan see Jango, probably not.

Secondly Obi Wan never sees any contact between Jango and Dooku before sending his report. So therefore has no concrete evidence as too link the two. Strangely a planet is a big place and to assume the two are together is a bold step, after Darth Sidious is hiding on the same planet as the Jedi Council. This then takes a back seat to the fact that Dooku is assembling a Droid Army and signing numerous systems and federations to his cause. This with the fact that Obi Wan is due to be executed in the Arena forces the Jedi to go to Geonosis. An attempt to stop the conflict before it starts, that in effect kicks off the whole War.

2 When Dooku is asked about Jango he flatly denies any involvement with Jango and lays out his plan to rid the galaxy of the Sith.


Yeah, a planet is a big place, but for the purposes of a film like this, the entire planet represents a singular point of view. In the same way that one would think of Alderaan as a "good" place, Geonosis is a "bad" place. Sure, maybe Obi didn't see Jango with Dooku until the arena, but the implicit implication is that Obi is fully aware of the connection. Jango hightailed it off Kamino and headed right for Geonosis where Obi found a plot being concocted. What else would Jango being doing there? Getting some sun on one of the many white sand beaches or trying his luck at the crap tables in Las Geonosis?

Oh, and Obi knew Dooku was lying through his teeth. What would possess Obi to believe Dooku when he denies involvement with Jango?

2-1B
10-11-2003, 05:06 AM
I watched AOTC again tonight and I can't believe I didn't answer this question properly in my earlier posts. :)
Nute Gunray is the answer here. He was the fall guy in TPM and he's set up again in AOTC.

Tracing the storyline:

Obi-Wan investigates the assassination attempt on Senator Amidala. It leads him to a bounty hunter called Jango Fett, currently hanging out on Kamino where he is the donor for a clone army. He claims to have not been recruited by Sifo-Dyas, the Jedi master / Republic connection.

Here's where I think we've made a mistake - we seem to be looking at it from the POV that Jango runs off to hide behind Dooku. Of course, we know that's the real story (because Tyrannus = Dooku) but the Jedi don't know that. What gets in their way of finding out the truth?

Nute Gunray.

He's there on Geonosis and Obi-Wan's detective work leads to his report via-hologram that "it is clear Viceroy Gunray is behind the attempt on Senator Amidala."

Once Obi-Wan is on to Jango and his attempt on Padme, is it illogical for Obi-Wan (and the rest of the Jedi) to link Fett to Gunray first? Nute and Padme have a shared history and they don't like each other. Now that Padme is a member of the governing body of the same Republic which Nute has problems with, why not go after her?

Since Gunray is being schmoozed by Dooku, then of course Dooku will have ties to Jango. But not directly. Of course Dooku was lying about knowing Jango. It doesn't mean that Jango was directly hired by Dooku. What's really dangerous about Dooku is the way he mixes lies with truth. He lies to Obi-Wan about knowing Jango Fett but then he tells the Jedi (almost ;) ) all about Darth Sidious. Okay, I've read some fanboy theories that Dooku was actually trying to destroy the Sith from within :rolleyes: but to me it's plain as day that Dooku is simply trying to mind*bleep* Obi-Wan. :crazed:

As for the clone army itself, who knows? They don't know who actually ordered it . . . and if they were to link it to somebody through Jango, why not Nute again? He's joining up with the separatists and (as I posted a page or two back) they could have a lot to gain by stirring the pot and pushing the Republic into war. The Jedi don't seem that oblivious to the reality of the situation. It's not like they walked into this totally blind. Mace himself says "it is done then" when the Chancellor is given his power to create an army. The way Mace says it, he's certainly reserved about it. Yoda, well Yoda doesn't know what the hell is going on because of that dark-side-clouds-everything problem. :D

What's the name of that Ree-Yees politican guy? He's a riot in the Chancellor's office when he calls out "now we need that clone army !" Bail Organa doesn't go for it because the Senate will never approve it in time before the Separatists attack. It's like they were backed into a corner. Obi-Wan warned them that the Separatists were preparing for war and Bail agreed with that intelligence report. As badly as the Loyalist Commitee wanted to prevent the creation of an Army of the Republic and the likelihood of war, they don't have much of a choice anymore. Palpatine's negotiations have failed. A war is coming.

The Jedi (and the rest of the Republic) may not know who forced their hand but they're about to find out.
:ignites red bladed lightsaber: :evil:

stillakid
10-15-2003, 01:25 PM
Caesar,

I agree with you that Dooku's main motivation behind his "interrogation" of Obi Wan was to mind-**** with him. The conjecture on my part that goes hand in hand with that is that Dooku has joined forces with Palpatine...for the time being. His ultimate plan would seem to be to use Palpatine and his influence for now, but when the opportunity strikes, he will take Palpatine out and wrest control for himself. This line of thought follows what we've been told about the behavior of the Sith. To that end, filling Obi Wan with half-truths might lead the Jedi to discover Palpatine on their own and dispatch "Sidious" so that Dooku doesn't have to do it himself. Afterall, Palpatine doesn't know what Dooku and Obi talked about and he isn't likely to find out either. Plans within plans within plans.

In any case, Obi Wan clearly isn't sure what to believe, however I think that you're downplaying the Jango-Dooku connection too much. Absolutely, it is clear that Gunray has a more solid connection to Jango than anyone on Geonosis, however the mere presence of Dooku in that meeting implicates him at the very least as accessory to the Separatists if not one himself. Given that, the distinction between who actually placed the order for the Clone army becomes rather moot. The point being, it is crystal clear that somebody at that table filled out the invoice to the Kaminians which means that the Clone Army was meant to be for the "bad guys." Yet somehow, Yoda and everyone else overlooks this and they all accept this Clone Army as their own. What's more, they all manage to conveniently overlook the fact that this Clone Army just happens to be ready and available at precisely the moment when Palpatine (not so convincingly) reluctantly takes power and calls for an Army of the Republic.

Now granted, events were moving fairly quickly at that point, so even if anyone at the old folks home managed to put the pieces together, it might not have been in time. However, if they had, the result would have been this: Our three "heroes" would have likely perished on Geonosis and the Clone Army would have remained at the ready on Kamino. This would have necessitated Palpatine to figure out some kind of reason to explain just how this Army managed to be sitting there ready at this precise moment in time (as the Separatists were beginning their killing of Jedi and Senators). Actually, Palpatine still has to explain this somehow, but then again, nobody seems to be asking the questions.

Bottom line still seems to be that the Jedi are rather daft. ;)

Dark Marble
06-22-2004, 04:08 PM
One bit of strangeness I have been thinking about is the connection between Dooku and Jango. Obi-wan found out that Jango was the template for the clone army and that Jango was also working with Dooku. Also, it is well known that Dooku is behind the seperatist droid army. So, I wonder why it didn't seem weird to the Jedi that both armies were connected to one or two men, Dooku and Jango. Wouldn't the connection of both armies, clone and droid, by means of Jango working for Dooku put up some red flags about the "war?" Or simply put wouldn't it be obvious to the Jedi that both armies were connected to the same person?

Droid
06-22-2004, 04:18 PM
I agree with your point. But did Obi-wan really find out that Jango was working with Dooku? Obi-wan tracked Jango to Geonosis, but Dooku denied Jango was even there. Jango was up on the balcony with Dooku, but did Obi-wan see him? Jango fought Mace in the arnea, not Obi-wan. There was a lot going on. Maybe Obi-wan never saw Jango in the arena.

Also, Jango told Obi-wan he was hired by Tyranus. Sidious and Dooku may be the only two people to know that Dooku and Tyranus are the same person. So Obi-wan never really proved the link between Jango and Dooku.

Bounty hunters are out for money and aren't necessarily on a side. Boba Fett worked for the Empire and Jabba the Hutt. That doesn't mean there was a link between Jabba and the Empire. As far as the Jedi knew, Jango may have worked for the cloners for profit and then worked for the Separatist movement for profit. That does not mean there was a link between the cloners (or those that hired them to make an army) and the Separatists.

It seems likely that the Jedi would have assumed that Jango had two jobs, not necessarily related:

1. He was hired by Tyranus to act as a template for the clones.
2. He was hired by the Trade Fedaration/Nute Gunray to assasinate Senator
Amidala. Even if Obiwan saw Jango on Geonosis he might have assumed
he was there with Gunray rather than Dooku. Zam said she was hired
to kill the Senator, Obiwan saw Jango fly away. Then he overhears
Gunray saying he won't sign a treaty until the Senator is dead. I think
Obiwan could assume that Jango's current job was working for Gunray to
assasinate Amidala.

That is my answer as one who defends the movies and wants them to make sense. I frankly agree with you that the Jedi would realistically have a pretty good shot at figuring out that the Separatists led by Dooku are linked to the clone army and the alleged Sith running the Senate. They should have had MANY MANY more questions about where the clones came from rather than just accepting them as a solution to a problem.

JediTricks
06-22-2004, 06:36 PM
Marble, I merged your thread with another one that asked this question.

Personally, I think it's a pretty big plot hole, but I've explained that before in this merged thread. ;)

Bobby Fett
06-22-2004, 10:13 PM
Honestly, for a group that is supposed to be so deep and investigative and spiritual as the Jedi are, these guys take an awful lot on face value.

Let's not forget that, in Episode 1, the all-knowing Jedi never figured out that Padme Naberrie + makeup = Queen Amidala!

The dark side clouds everything. ;)

stillakid
06-23-2004, 12:36 AM
Let's not forget that, in Episode 1, the all-knowing Jedi never figured out that Padme Naberrie + makeup = Queen Amidala!

The dark side clouds everything. ;)

So does a bad script. ;)

2-1B
06-23-2004, 01:02 PM
Let's not forget that, in Episode 1, the all-knowing Jedi never figured out that Padme Naberrie + makeup = Queen Amidala!


Yes they did.

JediTricks
06-24-2004, 07:10 PM
There is some debate as to whether Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon knew Padme was the real Amidala. Upon the reveal of the queen's identity, the script actually says "ANAKIN is stunned. OBI-WAN and QUI-GON give each other a knowing look."