PDA

View Full Version : Anakin's Ghost and Justice



stillakid
10-10-2003, 12:28 PM
Ok, so Luke comes and "saves" his dad from eternal damnation and all that. Great. But how come he gets off scotfree? What I mean is, at the end, we see him just standing there glowing and smiling as if nothing had happened! And Yoda and Ben are doing it too!

Are you KIDDING ME? The guy raped, pillaged, tortured, maimed, and killed for years on end. And what happens to him? He gets the eternal blue glow award and gets to go to the victory party. What's that all about? No punishment? None at all? What about this "prophecy" crap? Who "created" the prophecy? Some kind of deity? Where the heck is he letting this guy get off without at least a slap on the wrist? What about the Midichlorians? I thought they were running the show. They create this monster then all he has to do is say he's sorry and that's it? Where's the justice?

Would you just let Anakin walk away from punishment like this?

stillakid
10-10-2003, 12:42 PM
EXT. SPIRIT WORLD NIGHT
Later on, after the party on Endor...

SPIRIT BEN
You know, uh, Anakin, you ah, you did some pretty awful stuff there.

SPIRIT ANAKIN
Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm really sorry about that.

SPIRIT BEN
Well...okay, as long as you're sorry.

SPIRIT ANAKIN
Yeah, yeah, I am.

SPIRIT BEN
Well, okay, good. And speaking of that, you hit me pretty hard there on the Death Star.

SPIRIT ANAKIN
(wincing)
Oh, really, gee, sorry about that.

SPIRIT BEN
It's an energy sword. It goes through anything it touches. You don't have to hit it that hard. I mean, man, I still ache right here where you got me.

SPIRIT ANAKIN
Oops. Well, let's go cruise the nightclub and scare up some broads. Get it "scare up" some broads?

SPIRIT BEN
Oh, Ani, you always were a goofball. A bipolar unpredictable moody tyrant, but a goofball all the same. Let's go buddy.

Once master and apprentice, now buddies in the afterlife, the two vanish into the mist as they head for more hijinx in this big ol' galaxy known as Star Wars.

Roll credits

bobafrett
10-10-2003, 02:03 PM
Ok, so Luke comes and "saves" his dad from eternal damnation and all that. Great. But how come he gets off scotfree? What I mean is, at the end, we see him just standing there glowing and smiling as if nothing had happened! And Yoda and Ben are doing it too!

Are you KIDDING ME? The guy raped, pillaged, tortured, maimed, and killed for years on end. And what happens to him? He gets the eternal blue glow award and gets to go to the victory party.

Okay, I am a little upset here. I've never read anywhere that Anakin/Vader raped anyone. He's not a Viking. Do you have written proof, and I don't mean in the EU, I'm talking about something the GL wrote saying that this happened.

Pendo
10-10-2003, 02:23 PM
I didn't know Vader still had the 'equipment' to rape anyone! Unless that's more machine now too :sur:!

PENDO!

stillakid
10-10-2003, 02:27 PM
Okay, I am a little upset here. I've never read anywhere that Anakin/Vader raped anyone. He's not a Viking. Do you have written proof, and I don't mean in the EU, I'm talking about something the GL wrote saying that this happened.


So I exaggerated a little bit. Sue me. ;) The point is, he did awful awful things and gets away with it in this world (that world) and the afterlife for ever and ever and ever.

[DSS]Pedr0
10-10-2003, 02:30 PM
So I exaggerated a little bit. Sue me. ;) The point is, he did awful awful things and gets away with it in this world (that world) and the afterlife for ever and ever and ever.
It was all the WILL OF THE FORCE. :D ;)

derek
10-10-2003, 07:51 PM
So I exaggerated a little bit. Sue me. ;) The point is, he did awful awful things and gets away with it in this world (that world) and the afterlife for ever and ever and ever.

there are religions that promote things like death bed conversions, which allow a person access to "heaven" after a lifetime of evil deeds, and i guess lucas used that as inspiration.

maybe lucas would say anakin killing the emperor made up for his evil ways.

and as far as i know, the only people anakin killed are some jedi, his own officers and some rebels. from his point of view, those all could be considered "battelfield casualties". it's not like he was walking around killing puppies and pregnant women for the fun of it.(and no, i don't think he was responsible for blowing up alderan, that was all tarkin)


Would you just let Anakin walk away from punishment like this?

who's to say the star wars universe has the concept of "hell" in their afterlife? how should he be punished? maybe you're thinking about this too much, as lucas was probably just after a happy ending. :confused:

DarthChuckMc
10-10-2003, 08:18 PM
I agree..I think killing off old Palpy absolved him of his "sins". Not that I think it's right...but what can you do?

Kidhuman
10-10-2003, 11:33 PM
I agree, killing Palps redeemed him as Anakin. He gave his own life for his son. He knew it was over anyways. Go out with a bang. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and becameVader. He then ceased to be Vader and became Anakin once again. Scitzophrenia(sp?) maybe?

Pendo
10-11-2003, 06:45 AM
who's to say the star wars universe has the concept of "hell" in their afterlife?
Well in ESB Han does say "Then I'll see you in hell!".

I agree that killing off Palpatine redeemed him. Palpy was the true evil one, there has always been some good in Vader trying to get out.

PENDO!

scruffziller
10-11-2003, 09:47 AM
I agree that killing off Palpatine redeemed him. Palpy was the true evil one, there has always been some good in Vader trying to get out.

PENDO!
Yes I agree. Attonement. In his heart he was truly sorry for everything and that is what matters, which means Stilla, it can work for you as well. No you may have not done the horendous things that Vader did, but even small wrongdoings(in the social eye) ultimatley just as bad. Stealing a penny and stealing a million dollars are one in the same. You have access to the same grace, because we all have shortcomings. Without making this a religious thread, I believe a criminal that truly repents of his wrongs, but may still have to pay the price of capital punishment, will get the happy blue glow. It is not how bad you have been, but how sorry you are.

stillakid
10-14-2003, 12:13 AM
Yes I agree. Attonement. In his heart he was truly sorry for everything and that is what matters, which means Stilla, it can work for you as well. No you may have not done the horendous things that Vader did, but even small wrongdoings(in the social eye) ultimatley just as bad. Stealing a penny and stealing a million dollars are one in the same. You have access to the same grace, because we all have shortcomings. Without making this a religious thread, I believe a criminal that truly repents of his wrongs, but may still have to pay the price of capital punishment, will get the happy blue glow. It is not how bad you have been, but how sorry you are.


You've just described the poster child for every "wayward" Catholic out there. "Oh, all I have to do is repent as I'm dying and I get to go to heaven? Cool!" Then they have license to do whatever they want until that time.


Yeah, but in any case, great, he "redeems" himself by offing Palpatine, but still, those bad deeds are still out there yet his blue cohorts are eager to forgive and forget. I'd always believed the Leia should have seen the ghosts as well at the end of ROTJ, to sort of signify that she was preparing to step forward into the new world of Midichlorian usage, however after looking at this scene through the veil of Vader's misdeeds, I would think that Leia of all people would have been more apt to cringe as she recalled that sharp needle being shoved into her skin from the mind probe. While Luke, Ben, and Yoda have their sitcom giggle moment, Leia would have been the "voice of reason" as a grim reminder that Blue glow Ani has left a pile of bodies in his wake. :dead:

DarthChuckMc
10-14-2003, 12:18 AM
nah...she would have been just as happy as the rest of them....it's ROTJ for God's sake...what's NOT happy about ROTJ?
Han's rescued, Jabba's rule has ended, Palp's reign of terror is over, Anakin is "good" again...and the Ewoks..well...the Ewoks are just bundles of sunshine to brighten up our day.

stillakid
10-14-2003, 12:22 AM
nah...she would have been just as happy as the rest of them....it's ROTJ for God's sake...what's NOT happy about ROTJ?
Han's rescued, Jabba's rule has ended, Palp's reign of terror is over, Anakin is "good" again...and the Ewoks..well...the Ewoks are just bundles of sunshine to brighten up our day.


Yeah, that's my point. If she had seen the ghost o' Anakin, then it might have opened up that can o' memory worms. Keeping her as a mere mortal, at least until the credits rolled, ensured a happy happy joy joy ending to the climactic finale.

2-1B
10-14-2003, 03:22 AM
Or maybe she would have smiled warmly at the sight of her REAL father and not that evil Darth Vader. :)

2-1B
10-14-2003, 03:58 AM
--OR-- maybe for the Ultimate Edition, George will bring in Jimmy Smits and Hayden Christensen for reshoots as the ghosts of Bail and Anakin. Leia will see Bail give Anakin a ghostly high five and she'll know everything's better. :D

stillakid
10-15-2003, 01:05 PM
--OR-- maybe for the Ultimate Edition, George will bring in Jimmy Smits and Hayden Christensen for reshoots as the ghosts of Bail and Anakin. Leia will see Bail give Anakin a ghostly high five and she'll know everything's better. :D


Right...just one more old white guy skirts the scales of justice. :)

TheDarthVader
10-15-2003, 02:59 PM
I see where you are coming from, stillakid. It is weird that after all of the bad deeds Vader gets to become a ghost. But we also have to remember...in EpIII (hopefully) it is supposed to be revealed about how a jedi can become a spirit. My theory is that the jedi would have had to either kill a sith in combat or be killed by a sith. In this case, Vader kills the master of all sith, thus he becomes a spirit. But I am sure there is more to it than just what I theorize. Apparently it takes meditation, being at peace, etc etc or whatever is revealed in EpIII.
Another point (not meaning to do this but I have to...to show my point), if you are a religious person (ie Christian), you have to remember a parable. If a person is good all of his life, he will get the "ultimate" reward. If a person is bad all of his life, he can still repent and then is welcomed more joyously than the good person. Why? Because this person was on the brink of all d*mnation (if you will) but found peace at the last moment and redeemed himself. Not all people will redeem themselves. Thus, it is more joyous to find this "bad" person good again than it is to find a good person still good. Hope this helps. Tell me if I am wayward!! :crazed:

scruffziller
10-15-2003, 03:48 PM
You've just described the poster child for every "wayward" Catholic out there. "Oh, all I have to do is repent as I'm dying and I get to go to heaven? Cool!" Then they have license to do whatever they want until that time.

It won't happen the way you think. If they have that predisposition in their heart it does not mean anything in the end if it is just that. The difference between Vader and those people is that Vader was sincere, those other people are not. Those people that live their lives with that dispostion and then try to use that on their death bed, don't get the glow. Plus what if the person doesn't have the luxury of the slowly dying. Besides, at what point would have Vader/Anikin had to have turned in his life to get the glow. Vader changed who he was at a point before he would have actually died.
If Vader was still who he was at the time point in the movie when the Empy was zapping Luke and did not change anything in his heart, the Empy and him would have blown up together and no glow. Because I can guarantee the state he was in, in ep 2 he would have not have gotten the glow if he had died. I don't really think you know stillakid how bad or good a deed has to be for it to change your fate or if it even changes it at all. You seem sure, but yet very confused. It isn't always about the deeds. You can go through your whole life and do absolutely nothing to anybody physically, but the state your heart is in when it is all over is what determines, yes glow or no glow. Man this thread is going to be closed real fast.

stillakid
10-15-2003, 07:30 PM
It won't happen the way you think. If they have that predisposition in their heart it does not mean anything in the end if it is just that. The difference between Vader and those people is that Vader was sincere, those other people are not. Those people that live their lives with that dispostion and then try to use that on their death bed, don't get the glow. Plus what if the person doesn't have the luxury of the slowly dying. Besides, at what point would have Vader/Anikin had to have turned in his life to get the glow. Vader changed who he was at a point before he would have actually died.
If Vader was still who he was at the time point in the movie when the Empy was zapping Luke and did not change anything in his heart, the Empy and him would have blown up together and no glow. Because I can guarantee the state he was in, in ep 2 he would have not have gotten the glow if he had died. I don't really think you know stillakid how bad or good a deed has to be for it to change your fate or if it even changes it at all. You seem sure, but yet very confused. It isn't always about the deeds. You can go through your whole life and do absolutely nothing to anybody physically, but the state your heart is in when it is all over is what determines, yes glow or no glow. Man this thread is going to be closed real fast.

You're putting more depth into it than I intended. The point wasn't that the "supreme being" or whatever is granting salvation based on whatever these fanciful religious manmade rules seem to be which are created for no other purpose other than to give the living a sense of fear of the afterlife. The point is that nobody else (living or dead) seems to care about Anakin's sordid past either. Sure, he did a great thing by deposing the Emperor and freeing the galaxy from his tyrannical grip. Nobody will argue with that. I'm sure that as Vader, Anakin would even find it within his heart to save a helpless kitten should that opportunity ever arise. But does one "good" deed amongst a lifetime of truly horrific events wash away all sense of responsibility one might have? Look at it this way: what if Hitler had invented a time machine and as his last deed, had assassinated Stalin, or jumped ahead in time to kill off Bin Laden? Would a good deed like that erase the millions of lives he was responsible for previously?

Anakin fades into view with a very contented smile on his face. Sure, it's a party, and maybe they the other ghosts expressed their sorrows afterwards, but....just thought I'd ask. :)

scruffziller
10-16-2003, 09:44 AM
You're putting more depth into it than I intended. The point wasn't that the "supreme being" or whatever is granting salvation based on whatever these fanciful religious manmade rules seem to be which are created for no other purpose other than to give the living a sense of fear of the afterlife. The point is that nobody else (living or dead) seems to care about Anakin's sordid past either. Sure, he did a great thing by deposing the Emperor and freeing the galaxy from his tyrannical grip. Nobody will argue with that. I'm sure that as Vader, Anakin would even find it within his heart to save a helpless kitten should that opportunity ever arise. But does one "good" deed amongst a lifetime of truly horrific events wash away all sense of responsibility one might have? Look at it this way: what if Hitler had invented a time machine and as his last deed, had assassinated Stalin, or jumped ahead in time to kill off Bin Laden? Would a good deed like that erase the millions of lives he was responsible for previously?

Anakin fades into view with a very contented smile on his face. Sure, it's a party, and maybe they the other ghosts expressed their sorrows afterwards, but....just thought I'd ask. :)
Sorry to kinda go off there.:) Sometimes I get frustrated if I tried explainig something and don't feel the point is taken. But I am glad, you stopped the boulder rolling on me.:D I started thinking about what we were saying and thought of how to explain this in a movie context. Throughout ROTJ Vader was struggling. There was an internal struggle. Vader got the glow not because of what he did but because of what he became inside and the good deeds followed. In essence Vader purged all of his darkside essence and became a lightside being, literally. The same could be said for Dooku in reverse. For most of his life, Dooku probably did immense good. But because of what he has become in the end of his life, for a few short years,(given he isn't alive at all in 4-6) he will share the same fate as old empy. Should Dooku be left off the hook because most of his life his essesnce was in the light. It is just as absurd to think that a person who is evil most of their life
cannot be redeemed as it is for a good person to be let off the hook if they change at the end for the bad and think they can splurge in excess of darkness like Dooku did because they "put in their time" for the goodside.
I think that answers most of your questions. If Hitler were to go back in time to stop Stalin or himself, it would be because he had transformed into a different person than he was before. I think GL made that distinction on purpose becaue Vader and Anikin were different people. As Obi Wan saw from his point of view too!:D Anikin died, Vader took his place, Anikin was resurrected and killed Vader. But from a logical standpoint too, everyone has done good and bad in their lives. It's not where you are from but it's where you're at, because we have all been there but what matters is the descision you make from here on out. Because the past cannot be changed. Because the only deal sealer is not your past but your death.
But for any recourse for you stillakid,:D, not sure if you are a Dragonball Z fan but there was an episode where the controversial hero Vegeta, who was a villian, made a life sacrifice attonement and in his heart he changed. He knew he probably wouldn't recieve the reward of keeping his body when he died. But before he turned himself into a nuclear bomb he said "oh well" as long as his family was safe. He didn't care what happened to him. And he did go to the Home For Infinite Losers. Dragonball Z's version of where the villians go when they died. So DBZ fits into your vision.:D
Plus we were in great danger of this thread being closed because we(well mainly me):D couldn't say what we wanted to say without breaking the rules. Probably already have, but want to apoligize to any mods.

stillakid
10-16-2003, 11:36 AM
I think GL made that distinction on purpose becaue Vader and Anikin were different people. As Obi Wan saw from his point of view too!:D Anikin died, Vader took his place, Anikin was resurrected and killed Vader.


You bring up a very good point that I had overlooked. Thanks! Obi did make that distinction in his mind (which is why he isn't a liar or any of that other hooey that people try to make him out to be.) (We never really definitively find out how Yoda felt, so his example can't be delved into.)

But Obi only made that distinction because he didn't believe that the personality of Anakin was "in there" anymore. To him, it had been entirely erased and replaced by this evil personality. However, in those final moments of ROTJ, blue-glow Ben would have been watching (from whereever spirits hang out) and realized his own error. So, true, prior to Vader tossing Palpatine overboard, Ben could sit back content in his belief that Anakin was dead. But afterwards, he would be forced to reevaluate his assessment and acknowledge that Luke was right: The personality of Anakin was still "in there" and as such, was most likely very aware of the horrifying things he did, at least in retrospect for those few minutes of life as Luke dragged him to the shuttle, and then afterwards as he joined the blue-glow club.

Anakin2121
10-16-2003, 12:40 PM
and as far as i know, the only people anakin killed are some jedi, his own officers and some rebels. from his point of view, those all could be considered "battelfield casualties". it's not like he was walking around killing puppies and pregnant women for the fun of it


Well, there were the Tusken women and children in AOTC. Plus, it's possible that he kills the "Younglings" in Ep3.

derek
10-17-2003, 11:54 AM
Well, there were the Tusken women and children in AOTC. Plus, it's possible that he kills the "Younglings" in Ep3.

"those tuskens, they walk like men, but they are animals"......as quoted by clegg lars :D :crazed:

Jedi Clint
10-17-2003, 04:54 PM
But for any recourse for you stillakid,:D, not sure if you are a Dragonball Z fan but there was an episode where the controversial hero Vegeta, who was a villian, made a life sacrifice attonement and in his heart he changed. He knew he probably wouldn't recieve the reward of keeping his body when he died. But before he turned himself into a nuclear bomb he said "oh well" as long as his family was safe. He didn't care what happened to him. And he did go to the Home For Infinite Losers. Dragonball Z's version of where the villians go when they died. So DBZ fits into your vision.:D


That was an awesome part of the Buu saga. It followed the fight between Vegeta and Goku which was, in my opinion, fantastic :) You can see the change in his character during Goku's fight with Kid Buu. Vegeta finally recognizes Goku's bravery and his strength go hand in hand, and is humble as a result.

stillakid
10-17-2003, 11:54 PM
But for any recourse for you stillakid,:D, not sure if you are a Dragonball Z fan but there was an episode where the controversial hero Vegeta, who was a villian, made a life sacrifice attonement and in his heart he changed. He knew he probably wouldn't recieve the reward of keeping his body when he died. But before he turned himself into a nuclear bomb he said "oh well" as long as his family was safe. He didn't care what happened to him. And he did go to the Home For Infinite Losers. Dragonball Z's version of where the villians go when they died. So DBZ fits into your vision.:D.


I was with you until the guy turned himself into a nuclear bomb. :eek: :D

I do like that name: "Home for Infinite Losers." Cuts to the chase.

scruffziller
10-18-2003, 10:07 AM
I was with you until the guy turned himself into a nuclear bomb. :eek: :D

I do like that name: "Home for Infinite Losers." Cuts to the chase.
The caretakers wear a shirt with HFIL you can kinda gather what it is pointing at.:D

But basically what happend in DBZ there, the enemy was so powerful that Vegeta saw the only way to defeat him was to turn his body into pure energy making himself a bomb so to speak. The form of martial arts they use is an extreme form of Tai Chi called Ballzon in which they can shoot energy beems out of their limbs and what not. So Vegeta basically took his entire energy source and gave it in one blast, which of course killed him, which left an extremely large crater. I think that example was pretty good because Vegeta was somewhat a Vaderesque charachter.

TheDarthVader
10-20-2003, 01:36 PM
Well in ESB Han does say "Then I'll see you in hell!".
PENDO!

Let us not forget the first mention of hell...in A New Hope.

Owen Lars: Well, he'd better have those units in the south range repaired by midday or there'll be hell to pay! :D

JediTricks
10-21-2003, 12:19 AM
No, you misunderstood, Owen was talking about shaving the kid's head bald, he said "he'll toupee". :D

2-1B
10-21-2003, 02:52 AM
When I was a kid I used to think he said
"or they'll be held a pay"
meaning that the droids would not get paid . . . which never made any sense to me. :D

TheDarthVader
10-21-2003, 01:53 PM
When I was a kid I used to think he said
"or they'll be held a pay"
meaning that the droids would not get paid . . . which never made any sense to me. :D

LOL!!! :D :crazed: