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View Full Version : Real world Cloning issues.. affect the movie???



princethomas
11-28-2001, 04:59 PM
We all know that StarWars talked of the Clone Wars way back in 1977. I know some believed that at the time, they just called em clone wars. That they werent really about clones. And that GL has just recently adapted them to real clones. Who knows, but Im wondering how the recent controversies about cloning will affect the movie. Negatively, perhaps postively. ITs seems very intersting. Any thoughts???

--Tom

One ring to lift the hair. One Ring to hold it. One ring to cut it incredibly close. From the Shadow of 5 oclock to the land of Smooth

xboywonder
11-28-2001, 05:22 PM
I think the fact that some people are trying to clone in the real world... won't really effect anything in the Star Wars universe.

The clones from Star Wars are a little more advanced than a sheep. :D

bigbarada
11-28-2001, 07:20 PM
I agree, I assume the clones in Star Wars will have overcome all the negative effects of the cloning methods we use today. For instance when you clone a 30 year old man, you essentially create an infant with 30 year old DNA (your DNA structure deteriorates as you age). This may give the child a weakened immune system and possibly lead to a much shorter lifespan.

Obviously, the cloning process the Kaminoans use is much more advanced.

Co Jo-Da
11-28-2001, 08:36 PM
I think the Clone Wars were originally to be along the lines of the current story but science of today has caught up with science fiction of yesterday...

But as to changing story lines or scene sequencing because of current events, well Sept. 11 have effected Episode II (a sequence during the Zam chase, where a ship crashes into a building) and many other films.

Rollo Tomassi
11-28-2001, 09:57 PM
Heh. Our university paper has these informal polls where they ask random students in the street about the topic du jour and the other day they asked if we thought cloning was good or bad and I said "I don't think they should clone people because pretty soon there'll be a ton of them and then they'll all start attacking..." but they didn't print it, dammit.:(

I think the issue of Clones and cloning is just kind of a peripheral free publicity thing for the movie that some people might make the connection and most people won't.

Tycho
11-28-2001, 10:18 PM
This thread is here to start a hopefully intelligent debate that concerns not only the movie, but very relevant current events.

It is here in this spoiler section, because the movie spoilers will undoubtably be referred to, and spoilers are permissible. Intolerance of others' religious views and moral preferences will not be. Religion and highly personal values regarding the sanctimony of life will play a significant part in this discussion. Please state your own point of view as passionately as you desire, but do not devalue some one else's right to their religion, ethnic creed, or moral beliefs. Debate the points they make, not whether their righteousness is lacking. Remember your own self-righteousness is only your own opinion.

Now let's get started.

Monday, newspapers across the United States carried headlines of the first (and second) successful attempts at human cloning. This is being done for the purpose of stem-cell research to find cures for disease, re-grow genome corrected organs that may help us one day live a lot longer, etc.

The fact that their is no law on record to punish people (mad scientist sorts ) that grow their own clones for personal slaves or private armies, is a valid concern for Congress, though we haven't progressed that far yet.

George Lucas is going to be showing us clones used as cannon fodder and components of fanatical armies. Not a positive spin on the benefits of cloning. And I suppose Palpatine can have transplanted, cloned organs as well.

Do you think Star Wars is going to affect the national conscience about the cloning debate?

bigbarada
11-28-2001, 10:31 PM
Having been raised a Christian, I actually have no problem with the idea of cloning humans. Exactly where does it say it is wrong for us to advance? God gave us the ability to question and learn so why not use it? Like the Tower of Babel, if we go too far God will let us know. Let's not make that decision for Him.

The only misconception people seem to be having about a clone is that it will be just that, an "it." A cloned human will be no different physiologically or mentally than any naturally conceived human. They will still have free will, hopes, dreams and most of all, an identity all their own. The only thing I've read about so far that really leaves me uneasy is the idea of cloning used to replace lost family members.

Here's a scenario, a husband and wife lose their 9 year old son and thus decide to have him cloned. The "replacement" kid would probably be treated as just that, a replacement. If somehow he doesn't learn to read as fast as version 1, then he might be seen as somehow defective. The kid would have no identity of his own and would probably suffer major mental scars based on his parents treating him like another person. Just a possible scenario.

I see no problem with cloning, but misused it could cause more problems than it promises to fix.

Jedi Clint
11-28-2001, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
Heh. Our university paper has these informal polls where they ask random students in the street about the topic du jour and the other day they asked if we thought cloning was good or bad and I said "I don't think they should clone people because pretty soon there'll be a ton of them and then they'll all start attacking..." but they didn't print it, dammit.:(

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jedi Clint
11-28-2001, 11:51 PM
I don't have a problem with this topic being in the E2 Spoilers forum as long as we make an effort to keep it on topic.

Personally, I think that it is an abuse of human life to "use" a cloned human, as they are still human.

I could see the way clones are treated in AOTC effecting public perception of the issue in the real world. They are property used as a star fighter or hand held weapon would be. No matter how they ended up in sentient flesh and bone form, they lack the rights of other sentient flesh and bone creatures in the Republic.

GNT
11-29-2001, 02:45 AM
One day clones will destroy their makers,the humans just like how Computer droids will destroy the humans also. We can stop it from happening by making laws about what you can and cant do about cloning!

I would like to have slaves (clones of myself of coarse) to do my work while I just sit at home talking to you guys :) Will it ever happen? Possibly in the next 20 or so years.

Co Jo-Da
11-29-2001, 04:00 AM
Another thing to consider is the fountain of youth angle. Say when you were 40 years old and want to live forever, at 40 you could give a sample of your DNA and create a clone of your-self (like having children but with a twist). When your clones reaches a pre-selected age, you have a doctor switch brains and wow you went from being say 65 to 25 years old. It may sound really for-fetched but it could happen.

Co Jo-Da
11-29-2001, 04:04 AM
Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
"I don't think they should clone people because pretty soon there'll be a ton of them and then they'll all start attacking..." but they didn't print it, dammit.:(

Man that's a good one...to bad nobady at the paper didn't get it.:mad:

Tycho
11-29-2001, 05:09 AM
As far as the slavery issue goes, in AOTC it's worse than you think. Human beings are the cloned slaves of course, but I think they are being 'whipped' or trained and mastered by the Kaminoans.

If Palpatine had any racial prejudices, as most theories as well as EU evidence points out, he might have wanted to have the clones made on Naboo. But because Nute and Rune couldn't hold the planet, he is stuck with Kamino and more aliens using humans as their grunts. Injustices like the Hutts practice on Tatooine, that will no doubt affect Anakin.

In terms of abuses today, Co Jo Da's fountain of youth theory is one such big time concern. A fully grown body for a brain transplant (and once they can cure paralysis like Christopher Reeve's, a brain transplant will become possible, or be steps closer), but this adult body could be a life with its own rights, too.
You could keep it frozen, in suspended animation until you were ready to harvest it for organs or the ultimate (the transplant Co Jo Das spoke of), but what if some anti-clone group got hold of the chance to set these people free? They might resent us for growing them as meat. They might attack their progenerator with murder in mind. Others, such as jealous husbands or wives, might use a known replacement to get away with murder and simply replace the victim.

Unless "flash learning" or some kind of training is used as seen in AOTC (all the young Daniel Logans on computers looking like telemarketers in the trailer), these 'adults' will have the minds of children, but the power of adult bodies....and if they are ever bread for military purposes? It will be attack of the clones indeed (GNT's theory). And we will be just as bad as the Kaminoans.

Now stem-cell research is a whole 'nother thing. I don't believe in souls per se, and that every life is sacred in exact example. I don't even think every human life has value, it depends on how we nurture that life in society, and what it develops into. The religious arguments start from opposition to harming souls or the sanctity of life. I argue that we are sacraficing some (100 cell globules or that less significant) to preserve life and make it better and stronger than how we know and define it now).

Does anyone know if human organs can be grown without a human host? Like a lump of flesh in an incubator that becomes a working kidney? Or could it be successfully grown in the person it was intended for in the first place? That technology would be extremely useful.

As far as the fountain of youth continues, we'd grow or transplant new organs, and we'd probably take bio-regenerative drugs to grow younger, rather than do brain transplants into identical bodies. If you had old wrinkly skin for example, you'd start growing younger skin beneath, as normal, but with all your youthful resiliency returned. As your top layer of skin dies and falls away as it does all your life, your younger skin will be just that - only really younger. Plastic surgery will end as we know it. Stem-cell research can lead to that.


And back to what Jedi Clint said about fully realized clones having no rights or social status, they would never be aware of that, as they are easily influenced, being so young minded, - and that's why "the Force can have a powerful influence" upon them. Exactly as Palpatine planned. The Stormtroopers of the later trilogy are only adult "children."

But that is why Stormtroopers would never revolt against the New Order, save for conscripted ones like Devin Felth that weren't clones in the first place. Officers in charge of these platoons were probably regular people trained at the Academy and put in armor and given command, because out of necessity, the Empire neededsome aspect of free-thinkers amongst its officers - but just enough to adapt and handle unusual circumstances, like a rebellion.

LTBasker
11-29-2001, 09:19 AM
Personally I don't see any problem with cloning except for one... what would we do with them? We can't simply replace a life-form with another life-form, because it's not the original and the original is always the best. Plus slavery's out, 'course for people who could support clones of people like raise them and such for one company so it would always be in trusted hands would work I guess, not slavery, but ya know so there would be definitely someone left in years to come to pass it onto. I guess that could work...but it sounds mostly like a waste of time. (Hasbro clones, yeck.)

I think Star Wars and other sci-fi stuff with clone references are going to a big influence on this thing. No doubt the earlier generation sci-fi sagas are the ones where it mainly came from, same goes for Artificial Intelligence, it was influenced by sci-fi, I think.

Well I think overall the best part of cloning would be if we had to face a "Clone Wars" at least it would only be duplicates of maybe even one person going into battle, instead of thousands of original people who have families and such. Actually the more I think about it, having a clone would be cool, they'd be pretty cool friends if they shared all your interests and stuff. :)

I don't doubt StarWars will influence alot of scientific things to be come up with, especially clones and maybe even hyperdrive, blasters, a.i., etc. :) Plus with AOTC being all cloney, who knows what would happen, clone interest could skyrocket and the scientists behind the cloning might get more funding that way therefore speeding up progress. That'd be cool... :D

Co Jo-Da
11-29-2001, 11:55 AM
The problem with clones is that it's too new... If there is going to be cloning to should be tested until perfection on animals but Iím a big supporter of animal rights. Cloning in the hands of misguided individuals could lead to serious problems like a new form of slavery (a major violation of human rights). Cloning is a science that should have stayed in science fiction but itís here now and how we handle it will truly reflex on us as a peopleÖ

Jedi Clint
11-29-2001, 03:50 PM
Tycho,

This thread, and the one started by princethomas are similar enough, that I am going to combine them.

JEDIpartner
11-29-2001, 04:01 PM
One of the biggest issues about cloning also comes from the religious right. Having been raised "old school" non-denominational Christian, I have, thankfully, retained my spirituality (and not religiousness- thank you) as an adult. I think that the cloning and developing fully functioning humans then poses the debate of "there is no unique human soul", which in turn, debunks religion. That scares a lot of folks. If there is suddenly no basis for a "God" who created us, then the fear is that utter chaos would break out.

Anyhow... that's what I've heard. What I know of my spirituality has been culled from all positive energy "religions", whether it is Christian, Catholicism, Buddhism, Taoism or what have you. I don't think that I would have a problem with cloning as long as it was handled "properly" (i.e. used to cure illness) and not for "the fountain of youth" or to create more beings to populate an already over-crowded planet.

JediTricks
11-29-2001, 10:36 PM
I don't think Lucas has enough info to really use the cloning issue properly, just like he didn't understand the technical issues behind the mistake of saying "made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs" (yes, I know EU tried to exonerate Lucas on this one, but c'mon). I'm sure he'll handle cloning in similar fashion to most scientific stuff - the job requires a gentle touch and he uses a claw hammer. ;) That's not to say that folks won't see Lucas' overly-general and possibly totally off-the-mark use of cloning and glom onto it as if it were part of the modern world, mind you - an act which will probably have millions of people ignorant of the REAL cloning issues.

BTW, the idea of cloning has been around for a very long time in Sci-fi, much longer than Star Wars, so it's not inconceivable that Lucas did have this sort of "war fought with clones" in mind when he wrote the words "the clone wars". Look at the development for Lando Calrissian, he was originally supposed to be a clone AND a king!

bigbarada
11-29-2001, 11:08 PM
The big problem with making tons of clones to do menial or dangerous labor, will be the threat of an uprising. Eventually the clones would become tired of being treated like sub-humans and demand equal rights and equal representation under the law.

I assume Palpatine will prevent this by squashing any notions of free will his clone army could develop. Maybe similar to what Timothy Zahn eluded to in Heir to the Empire. Palpatine may be powerful enough to control the thoughts of millions of weak minded clones. Thus when Palpatine is killed in ROTJ, the fight pretty much goes out of his troops and they flee or surrender.

JediTricks
11-30-2001, 01:17 AM
I honestly don't want to see stormtroopers in the classic trilogy be clones, I think the idea of STARTING palpatine's army with clones is interesting, but I think it'd be better to have the ranks thin quickly and be supplimented with regular recruits who are trained only as well as the clones were - that leading to their ineptitude. There were a lot of personalities in the first 3 movies' various troopers, I don't think it'd work if they were all clones. It seems to me like if they don't have enough individuality, they'll fail in the same way as the battle droids.

Bothan187
11-30-2001, 01:50 AM
at 40 you could give a sample of your DNA and create a clone of your-self (like having children but with a twist). When your clones reaches a pre-selected age, you have a doctor switch brains

Crazy idea, very possible, and yet I wonder how. We would have to stop evolving, which might not be good. Also, in order for the people of today to live forever, giving child birth would have to end. We would have to have a set number of people to populate the earth. If something happens, like someone dies by unnautural causes, then we draw straws and see who can have the replacement child. I don't think we will have this life though, not in our lifetime.

bigbarada
11-30-2001, 09:50 AM
Once we figure out how to get a computer to understand the data our brains produce then it would be a simple matter to simply download all memories from one brain and transfer them to another brain. Kind of like in The Matrix. Once a way is found to directly interface a computer with a human brain then the sky's the limit.

I see what you're saying about the OT stormtroopers JT, it seemed that many Imperial troops were able to think on their own. The Biker Scouts for instance. Plus, once the Emperor takes power there would be millions of wide-eyed, idealistic young men ready to do their duty for the Empire.

JEDIpartner
11-30-2001, 11:02 AM
Clones in movies are cool.

Clones in real life are crap!

Co Jo-Da
11-30-2001, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Plus, once the Emperor takes power there would be millions of wide-eyed, idealistic young men ready to do their duty for the Empire.

But when ever Palpatine was short on troops he'd have sameone crank open the Cloning Mechines...

bigbarada
11-30-2001, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Co Jo-Da


But when ever Palpatine was short on troops he'd have sameone crank open the Cloning Mechines...

Probably how he quickly filled the void left by the first Death Star explosion. Also explains why the Stormtroopers on Bespin were so inept.

princethomas
11-30-2001, 01:42 PM
This is a class A discussion. Id be scared to death to post it at the force.net those guys are total A-holes... The reason I made my post though was more along the lines of what effect it will have on how the public perceives the movie. As it gets closer and closer to May, more and more regular folk will catch wind of its title. I wonder how they will react to that I guess is my question.. I wonder if they will think that Star Wars is trying to cash in on current event fears and that kind of thing..

--Tom

JediTricks
12-01-2001, 12:48 AM
barada, that's what I was thinking too. And since those that trained the clones to be stormtroopers were part of the Empire, they were either too dumb or too afraid to change how things were done, and thus the recruited stormtroopers got the same inferior training as the clones - hence, their ineptitude. Look at the ones "guarding" the tractor beam power core in the Death Star, Obi-Wan is standing right there and they're blathering about the BT-16!


One thing I'm very concerned to see how Lucas will handle it is the issue of how he, as a moviemaker, treats the clones. Now, that probably reads stupid, but keep trying to follow me... In the original trilogy, Lucas had little regard for human life, he killed human minor characters all the time but only as defense. I'm fine with that, but in Ep 1, Lucas did a 180 and made all the violence "acceptable" because it was against droids - droids would just stand there and they'd get hacked to pieces. Now, if Lucas decides to turn stormtroopers into clones, will he make it acceptable for violence against clone characters who are just standing around doing nothing in the same way as he did with the droids? "Oh, it's ok that Obi-Wan just killed 30 stormtroopers who were unconcious, they're *JUST CLONES*"

Tycho
12-02-2001, 09:17 AM
I can't understand how Lucas has conceived of using graphic violence, Tricks.

I don't think he knows.

For example: let's not make Han a cold-blooded Rodian killer any more and let Greedo shoot first, even though it's ridiculous without the EU trying to sell some story it was a cheap, malfunctioning gun, Greedo got from Jawas. It went off accidently as he gestured to Han (which he didn't do - and Han doesn't move like he's started, or anything - obviously because in 1976, Harrison played it the original way...)

And we could go on and analyze Classic Star Wars, but the issue is Episode One's violence: Maul was cut in half, and Qui-Gon impaled through the heart - those were obvious. A few Naboo guards fell and the bodies could be seeing lying around if you look for it in all the hanger battle scenes, and the Hallway fight. Several dead Gungans are actually shown, though ones getting hit are lost from view in large smoke clouds.

As this is the Episode 2 SPOILER section, Obi-Wan severs off Zam Wessel's arm and then Jango kills her with a head shot. Darth Tyranus slices off Anakin's arm, and Yoda determines he must KILL Dooku / Tyranus because he IS a Sith, but Yoda opts to save life, that which is precious in the Force, and he saves Obi-Wan and Anakin, while Dooku escapes. Meanwhile, all but 4 of the Jedi Council Members are killed, and I think we see SaeSae Tiin bite the dust.

Now to get back on topic, with all the above death and killing in the prequels involved, could it actually hurt to see Battle Droids or Geonosians killing the Clone Troopers? (Who attack the Confederate Planets as in "Attack of the Clones - though I think we only see them attack Geonosis). I mean what could possibly be accomplished by not killing many of these clone warriors that could lessen the violence level of a film where Jango Fett gets completely decapitated and his son finds the helmet with his father's head still in it?

Episode One had some diet-violence in it, but I don't see any need for that in Episode Two, and the third movie will have place for only hardcore death in it, as we know all about the story's ending.

jw_bryant
12-04-2001, 06:10 AM
you do know that company didnt clone a human dont you?

Tycho
12-04-2001, 11:38 AM
Yes. We understand that. They cloned a Toydarian. didn't they?

You know, I thought I saw Watto buzzing around the President's ear....


Seriously, I know they cloned a human cell that divided into about 8 human cells before it expired. The fact is, the next time they try it will be 15 cells, then 100. It will become more and more possible to actually clone a human being who will be as normal as you and I, and it will probably be achieved in our lifetime, or already has been (legally, or otherwise). I don't think they should stop and halt us in the face of progress. But making full human clones is not the research's value in terms of medical advances. (at this point). For the sake of scientific discovery, I'd say sure. Go ahead and do it. It is easier explaining to one clone that he or she is special, because they are the first and their healthy existence could so much further medical science, than it would be to explain that to a community of clones, or a platoon of clones that might start attacking people ;)

Unless they clone Hannibal Lechter and the propensity for violence is proven to be geneticaly inheited, I don't actually believe a fully realized clone of any of us would be any more violent than the progenetor. However, since cloning is not a perfected science, the first time they really DO allow a full human clone to be created, they might be mentally unstable as well as exhibit other problems. I wouldn't call that their success story if I were them, but keeping it a company secret violates basic human rights - of which a sentient, conscious clone should inherit - all of them.

Remember, Palpatine brainwashes his clones to be unthinking, totally obedient, stormtroopers.

Jargo
12-04-2001, 05:47 PM
Say you were cloned. That is your genes were used to create a new entity or lifeform in human shape - a new human. It would look like you and to all intents and purposes be you. But for the fact that it wouldn't have your mind. It would be a free thinking individual with thoughts and feelings of its own. It wouldn't neccesarily want to do the same activities as you or like the same things as you because it would have no points of reference or the memories that you have to inform your personal set of values and tastes and desires etc.
A clone is just a malliable drone. It is grown from embryo stage into a full lifeform of whatever species it is cloned from. Everything we know is informed by our history books and our families and those we surround ourselves with - a source of knowledge that feeds our minds with reference points to use and make judgements by and choices by. Therefore in a sense we are all clones of someone in some small way or ways.
These clones made in vast numbers are no different, they are simply educated in a prejudiced way that edits out some of the information that might otherwise be availablre to them in normal birth and life circumstances of nurture and nature. The biggest difference is that they simply all look alike which is really no different to someone giving birth to sextuplets on more than one occasion.
cloning is okay in my books apart from the risk of abuse in the education of the cloned person. If someone was cloned for the purposes of replacing the subject, like say in a presidential assasination, that would be bad. but as the subject ages faster than a clone can be aged to meet the subject this would be impossible in our current timeframe. So is cloning for the purpose of replacing a worn out body by swapping brains. No science exists at this present time to achieve that without significant brain damage occuring in the process or the brain simply dying on removal.
It may be possible to clone skin and graft it onto a human succesfully but the bones and blood vessels and muscle tissue would also need replacing as this would still age normally resulting in a young looking human who ambled around like George Burns.
Those that wish to clone a child to replace a sick or terminally ill or dead child are frankly just ill in the head and need treatment for grief overdose or simply a lack of intelligence.
Those who wish to clone body parts for the purposes of helping sustain life for patients with diseased body parts are forward thinking and should not be impeded in their research as in my honest opinion this is valid work and falls well within the parameters of taste and decency and medical ethics.
Pro lifers feel that cloning robs embryos of a soul or some such nonsense. Soul is the culmination of life experience and the notion of a baby having some such 'soul' are just lucicrous.
The laws will eventually allow cloning to procceed with stringent emphasis on what can and can't be done. But this is not to say that cloning has not been achieved in some lab somewhere and a cloned human may walk among us even now.
The laws should be drawn up to prevent the rich and childless from simply dialling up a baby to provide themslelves with an heir.
I remember reading back in the seventies of plans by scientists to provide what was termed a 'baby machine' where a clients wants could be programmed into a cloning machine and DNA selected according to desire. Then a child would be 'cooked' with certain characteristics built in like blond hair blue eyes and a predeliction (sp?) for becoming a nobel prize winning geneticist for instance.
That would quite frankly have been utterly abhorent to me and obviously the domain of the rich and greedy where any percieved abnormalities like red hair or sexual preference could be bred out of the human race. An extreme example but you can see my point.
Obviously things like sexual preference are not programmable as they are informed choices in lifestyle not genetic despite what some crazed scientists and the moral rightwing zealots think.
So in short, cloning good, in principle, abuse of cloned humans for nefarious purpose bad. Cloned body parts good, abuse of cloning for eternal youth bad bad bad.

Obi-Don
12-11-2001, 10:35 AM
Being able to clone a organ to replace a bad one is fine with me.God did gives us the ability to think and advance.But for me,cloning a complete human is stepping into God's place and I don't think thats a place we should go. I don't know how many of you believe in a soul,but from what I believe only God can give a soul and if we make humans would they have a soul? Or would they be just a empty shell. Its a hard thing to think about,but for me .I think we should leave the cloning of humans or anything else for that matter in God's hands. Let God make life and let us enjoy it.

Tycho
12-11-2001, 02:44 PM
To me that's too vague and general:

if there are souls, it is the collective experiences of a sentient lifeform that combine to make a self-aware person (to differentiate from a baby in the simplest terms).

And then, if God-made souls begin at some point between fertilization and conception, or just thereafter, those souls could not possibly be aware that they even are souls, etc.

So to me, even a live-born-baby is almost an empty shell, as you put it.

I don't want to get into the abortion debate unless it's absolutely relevant to what we're discussing in cloning though.

However, if you take the God-bestowing souls theory to heart, then clones would be (should be) developing souls just like any other human: they will grow from their experiences into individuals (if allowed to). However we came into existence, we were made to reproduce and continue as a lifeform. We may be finding alternative ways of doing this, but that is still all we are doing when we can create new life ourselves either by 'the natural way,' artificial insemination, or cloning (which if achievable at the present, still requires a natural mother to carry the child to term). Even in the future, if we can grow clones in giant test-tubes, the basic building blocks of life, DNA, cells, stem-cells etc, are all something we have to obtain from the natural order of things. If we did not, we could create life out of metal (and with artificial intelligence advances, one day we will). So we must be careful as to how we define life, sentient life, and what can have a soul. Eventually Commander Data or C-3PO may one day have a soul. We are less different kinds of machines from them than we pretend to think we are, in the long run.


Note though, that even if we are playing with these God-made natural building blocks of life, and we can clone humans with souls, when they are at stem-cell stages, or even the fully almost-realized adult bodies in a test-tubes on Kamino, they are no more sentient beings than amoebas or cattle (for the later stage). They have the potential to become so much more. Palpatine chooses to use them as cattle for the slaughter, as he chooses to deny them the chance to develop as individuals.

Two do, however. There names are that of the pilot of Slave-ONE and Han Solo. Thus proof that we can choose our own destiny and develop our own concept of morality, heart, and soul.

Jargo
12-11-2001, 02:58 PM
Han Solo isn't a clone. he's just a Correlian. He starts out his life as a cabin boy for Captain Antilles and is then drafted into the Imperial navy at some point later on. Butbthat's another story..... :D :happy: :p :) :stupid:

Tycho
12-11-2001, 03:03 PM
Wait and see.... meanwhile everyone interested in speculation and the 'proof' should read the "Mace's Death" thread in its entirety (and all 3 pages) in the Episode 3 spoilers section. Many of us who come here contributed to it and I think we've created an awesome possible and logical story outline.

Han being a clone, the EU still being OK, and more is explored there.