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plo koon 200
10-22-2003, 06:49 PM
This is on T'Bone's site. Please speculate.

http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/movie_news/


To tell you the truth both endings sound disapointing considering we don't get that much Vader. I was hoping they could have a little more of him.

I like the duel birth concept but it does not have to be the ending of the film. They can still fit more Vader scenes.

2-1B
10-23-2003, 04:04 AM
The "montage scene" reminds me of Rocky IV when they contrast Drago's technological training with that of Rocky's natural training.

The part about Anakin choking Padme because he thinks the twins are dead, well it reminds me of Godfather 2 when Kay tells Michael that she had an abortion.

My speculation is that most of it sounds far fetched. :D

plo koon 200
10-23-2003, 08:43 AM
Not as far fetched as the Grievous BS.

Anakin2121
10-23-2003, 12:43 PM
Um, I don't see it mention the actual ending.

I like that animation where Palpatine becomes all Emperor-y, though. :p

stillakid
10-23-2003, 01:00 PM
If there is a montage sequence showing the transformation or whatever you want to call it, I'm going to demand a refund. Not only should "Vader" not appear in a frame of Episode III, a montage sequence is second in stupidity only to a flashback or dream sequence. As a film technique, it would be as out of place in a Star Wars film as much as if it were to be Episode 3-D!.

plo koon 200
10-23-2003, 05:24 PM
We have a montage for the very end for AOTC. I guess AOTC is the stupidest Star Wars thing ever since the ending is a montage.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-23-2003, 06:35 PM
We have a montage for the very end for AOTC. I guess AOTC is the stupidest Star Wars thing ever since the ending is a montage.
What, there's no montage in AOTC. And there sure as hell better not be one at the end of Episode III.

stillakid
10-24-2003, 12:19 AM
There's a montage in AOTC? George reedited that one already?

InsaneJediGirl
10-24-2003, 06:45 AM
Bad speculation about the ending in my opinion.That Jedi Temple Ambush sounds awesome though,I cant see the killing of the kids making it in....


(Mustafar - the lava planet)

Has someone been watching the Lion King?Mufsa,I am your father :p

plo koon 200
10-24-2003, 11:18 AM
There's a montage in AOTC? George reedited that one already?

Oops, I was not thinking the way you guys were thinking with a Godfather/Matrix Reloaded montage. I see where you guys are confused. However, the way that the ending of AOTC is cut makes it a montage. Trust me it reall is a montage. Just not a montage where everything happens all at once.

Toad
10-24-2003, 11:58 AM
I agree, I also think there's a montage at the end of ROTJ when it goes from Endor, to Coruscant, etc. (in the SE anyway). I don't know if I would call that, or this, a real "montage" - they're just cuts from one scene at a certain place and time to another scene at a different place but the same time. It's used in almost every movie that tries to depict 2 things at the same time. We're not talking putting 4 different things on the screen at the same time using split-screen for crying out loud!

stillakid
10-24-2003, 03:32 PM
Oops, I was not thinking the way you guys were thinking with a Godfather/Matrix Reloaded montage. I see where you guys are confused. However, the way that the ending of AOTC is cut makes it a montage. Trust me it reall is a montage. Just not a montage where everything happens all at once.



Um, ok, I'll agree to disagree. :) In the strictest sense of the word, what you suggest could be considered true if you're assuming that it's a "montage" of finale events of the movie Attack of the Clones. But that quick succession of shots isn't really much more than that.

My personal objection to a "montage" which would show some sort of Anakin-to-Vader progression is that (beyond being unnecessary and damaging to the overall continuity of the saga) the style of illustrating a singular event like this through a series of rapid shots meant to specifically compress time is out of place in any Star Wars film and is a cheap and easy way out for a filmmaker to get any point across.

In any case, your AOTC example has less to do with time compression (a typical montage scenario) and more to do with showing simultaneous events (by this definition, the end of ROTJ would be in your "montage" column as well.)


monĚtage ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mn-tńzh, m˘-)
n.

A single pictorial composition made by juxtaposing or superimposing many pictures or designs.
The art or process of making such a composition.

A relatively rapid succession of different shots in a movie.
The juxtaposition of such successive shots as a cinematic technique.
A composite of closely juxtaposed elements: a montage of voices on an audiotape.

Tycho
10-26-2003, 03:10 PM
I agree with a point Stillakid made in previous threads before:

We should not see Hayden being transformed into Darth Vader. It will run the climax in a 12 HOUR MOVIE when we're shocked as Luke learns that his father is still alive.

They could show the construction of Vader, and with the Cyborg General Grevious, make it seem that Vader was put together similarly, but not show Hayden as the biological donor, so that IF YOU'VE NEVER SEEN EPISODES 4-6, it would be a complete surprise that Anakin Skywalker survived his wounds and lived past E3.

The other thing is they should not show 2 (two) babies. Have all the handmaidens run with little bundles, so that there could've been 1 to 5 babies targeted, and lose the fact that there were twins in the confusion. That way all the love triangle stuff between Luke and Han vying for the Princess doesn't get lost with us knowing Leia is Luke's sister all along.

DONT MAKE THESE MOVIES FOR FAN BOYS THAT WANT TO SEE EVERYTHING EXACTLY AS IT HAPPENED.

Read an EU book for Pete's sake, or start with Fun with Phonics and teach yourself something...

LUCAS SHOULD MAKE THIS THE LAST 2 HOURS NEEDED FOR A 12 HOUR MOVIE EPIC!

stillakid
10-26-2003, 03:19 PM
I agree with a point Stillakid made in previous threads before:

We should not see Hayden being transformed into Darth Vader. It will run the climax in a 12 HOUR MOVIE when we're shocked as Luke learns that his father is still alive.

They could show the construction of Vader, and with the Cyborg General Grevious, make it seem that Vader was put together similarly, but not show Hayden as the biological donor, so that IF YOU'VE NEVER SEEN EPISODES 4-6, it would be a complete surprise that Anakin Skywalker survived his wounds and lived past E3.

The other thing is they should not show 2 (two) babies. Have all the handmaidens run with little bundles, so that there could've been 1 to 5 babies targeted, and lose the fact that there were twins in the confusion. That way all the love triangle stuff between Luke and Han vying for the Princess doesn't get lost with us knowing Leia is Luke's sister all along.

DONT MAKE THESE MOVIES FOR FAN BOYS THAT WANT TO SEE EVERYTHING EXACTLY AS IT HAPPENED.

Read an EU book for Pete's sake, or start with Fun with Phonics and teach yourself something...

LUCAS SHOULD MAKE THIS THE LAST 2 HOURS NEEDED FOR A 12 HOUR MOVIE EPIC!


What he said. :)

Yet I fear that it is already too late for that. Lucas has already tipped his hand waaayyyy too much in TPM and AOTC already. I'm not sure anymore that hiding Vader's identity can pull this plane out of it's tailspin.

The only argument that could be made at this point would be to accept that the Prequels can't really be seen prior to the OT. This allows the Prequels the freedom to exploit every "fanboy" request for the "cool" stuff. Of course, it also puts the nail on the coffin and turns the Prequels into a kind of "EU" experience, but the continuity in those was tossed out the window as well.

Look, I'm the last one to like it, but with James Earl Jones signed on if even for a little bit, it's clear that the ship is going down. It'll take another IMAX cut from people with more sense to bail enough water out to keep the behemoth afloat for just a little while longer. :Pirate:

plo koon 200
10-26-2003, 05:02 PM
Luckily this film is still not Titanic, which actually did pretty well at the box office.

Croaker
10-26-2003, 06:11 PM
Hey Tycho, i hate to say it but it seems like you're still kicking a dead horse.

Vader being Luke's father, anakin being Vader - the cat is out of the bag. Has been for years. this will never be a secret again.

Hell, there are references to it on the simpsons. Think kids in the future are not going to have seen the simpsons?


I read your treatment back when it was first posted, and there's some cool stuff in there, but I really think that it's time to give up the whole idea of the anakin/vader connection being secret.
You could walk down the street and ask people who aren't fans of the movie who darth vader is and they could tell you.

stillakid
10-26-2003, 07:05 PM
Hey Tycho, i hate to say it but it seems like you're still kicking a dead horse.

Vader being Luke's father, anakin being Vader - the cat is out of the bag. Has been for years. this will never be a secret again.

Hell, there are references to it on the simpsons. Think kids in the future are not going to have seen the simpsons?


I read your treatment back when it was first posted, and there's some cool stuff in there, but I really think that it's time to give up the whole idea of the anakin/vader connection being secret.
You could walk down the street and ask people who aren't fans of the movie who darth vader is and they could tell you.


"Public knowledge" isn't the point. Creating a cohesive whole is. No matter what order the individual stories are actually written and filmed in, the idea is to create a story which makes sense from page 1 to the finale in terms of continuity and "surprise." Lucas could have created these films in the following hypothetical order:

Episode 5 then 2 then 4 then 1 then 3 then 7 then 6 or any other combination.

No matter how they were released to the public, he still has/had a responsibility to remain faithful to his established continuity from each episode as it is released. So, for instance, had he begun with an episode which established Sea Monkeys as being the fuel for starships, then he would be bound to stick with that idea throughout the rest of the episodes no matter how ridiculous it seemed later on. However, if he then made an episode which did a 180 on that and told the audience that it was not Sea Monkeys at all, but Orange Peels that ran starships, then suddenly he's got a continuity problem even if the Orange Peel episode occurred earlier in the story timeline.

In the same way, Lucas established Obi Wan Kenobi as being the one who found Anakin and chose to teach the boy. Regardless of the fact that it is a later episode, Lucas established that continuity first in our linear history and is bound by it. Any deviation constitutes a f***up as we've seen.

Specific to the case of "revealing" the identity of Vader, the previously filmed episodes made a distinct point of creating a mystery and climactic unveiling of who he was and his relation to our hero. Giving away that secret prematurely in an earlier episode just because the currently living audience knows about it is not only ridiculously stupid, but breaks all the rules of story continuity. The only reason to do it is to please "Fanboys" who are hung up on the idea of seeing Darth Vader prior to Episode IV. Otherwise, there is really no justification for showing Vader at all, muchless giving away his identity so blatantly via a "montage" transformation sequence.

However, as stated before, if the intention is to create a subsequent trilogy which is meant to be seen after viewing the episodes which occur later in the timeline ( specifically, the audience sits down to view them in this order: IV, V, VI, I, II, III) then a case can be made that allows the filmmaker to "reveal" anything he damn well chooses. He still isn't allowed to break the established continuity from previously filmed and released episodes, but revealing secrets isn't such a big deal anymore. But my understanding is that Lucas intends (somehow) for these to be viewed in Episode order, something that currently is impossible anyhow. While he could still manage to hide Vader's identity somewhat, the cat is out of the bag for Yoda's identity. The entire "reveal" of who he is in The Empire Strikes Back is already obliterated by his mere presence in the Prequels. There probably wasn't any way around it, but it does completely alter the original intention of the ESB screenplay which had the audience learn information along with Luke. Now, when we watch it, we are forced to merely observe the hero go through the actions instead of empathizing with him on his journey.

plo koon 200
10-26-2003, 07:28 PM
I love the points you just made. Lucas is a radical filmmaker who likes to be oblivious to the truth. He expects his grand "super special-verison" to be the only acceptable version of his film. He thinks that people will forget about the originals. While Lucas can change something before it is released he needs to wake up one day and realize that he cannot change what he has already done and allowed the public to see. The same holds true for a serial-killer, you may think of killing someone all your life but once you put a knife to someones throat you cannot change what you have done. You can deny it but it does not mean you committed the crime.

Tycho
10-26-2003, 08:48 PM
I had some more comments.

First, no sea monkeys were harmed during the making of these posts.

Next, as to the revelation of who Yoda is, during the sequences in ESB where Luke is impatient and wants the little green knome to take him to Yoda, I too have thought: "well there goes that one!"

But in terms of the story, it is hardly as important as Vader's identity or that Luke and Leia are twins.

In 1980 we shared frustration with "the little green knome for delaying Luke so that it took him longer to find Yoda."

Since 1999, we felt frustrated with Luke, for being so impatient, having no manners, and we realize at once that Yoda is testing him. It still doesn't take away the fun from the character as Yoda is tossing Luke's possessions around the camp, nearly breaking his radio and stealing his glow lamp.

We know now that a Jedi Master is deciding that a candidate for apprenticeship doesn't need a bunch of worthless trash and needs to live simply, and rely on his surroundings for his resources. Furthermore, Luke should have known that you pay someone offering their help with kindness and an offering, not an order to vacate land that is probably theirs in the first place!

And a Jedi is open-minded, and able to consider the possibilities that new relationships could present to further one's goals - such as the little green creature's help in finding Yoda - just as Qui-Gon tought another impatient apprentice, that a Gungan outcast named JarJar could ultimately help forge an alliance between his people and the Naboo, in the time of their greatest need.

Luke was closed-minded to all those possibilities, and he had no patience or openess to exploring them until Ben helped him discover who Yoda really was.

But back to whether "everyone knows" that Anakin is Vader, because it's on the Simpsons etc. - no. No.

New kids are born every minute in this world. Their parents will show them all kinds of different entertainment choices, based on all different kinds of parenting preferences. Star Wars fans who are parents may choose to show their kids the SW movies in Episode order 1,2,3,4,5,6 before they are exposed to or understand anything else. I mean a Telly-tubby fan can be at least old enough to take their fingers out of their mouth and yell "yaaaagggaaagguuudddooo" and smile and clap their little hands when they see a podrace and recognize young Anakin. Then they grow up liking these and having a deeper understanding of the movies with every viewing - you know they can't tell Palpatine is Darth Sidious - and they think JarJar is a great war hero. Told as one big story, they will slowly come to understand everything and love it even more, like we did.

Furthermore, as Stillakid said, Lucas is trying to make one whole tapestry, and should preserve the shock element of most of the surprises found in the original movies.

Lastly, I tend to disagree with Stillakid about the bluntness of the clues being laced in the Prequel Trilogy.

In the Classic Trilogy we first learned this:

1) Luke's dad had been a navigator on a spice freighter - no that wasn't true.
2) Luke's dad had been a Jedi Knight in the Clone Wars.
3) Luke's dad had been betrayed and murdered by Darth Vader.

1 out of 3 was true.

Also, Ben said, "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi." - true.

in TPM: "Obi-Wan...Obi-Wan. The boy IS the Chosen One. You must train him."

"Yes Master."

"I will train Anakin without the approval of the Council if I must."

NONE OF THIS STUFF SAID "Luke, I discovered your father and took it upon myself to train him." - but heck, from a certain point of view, Obi-Wan could have turned around on the Queen's starship and discovered a little boy saying "Qui-Gon's in trouble!"

No history was betrayed.

In ESB, "..there you will find Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." HE DID NOT SAY THE JEDI MASTER WHO I WAS APPRENTICED TO - BUT A LOT OF YOU OUT THERE TOOK IT THAT WAY.

In AOTC, "Master, it's about Anakin. I do not think he was ready for this assignment."

"You must have faith Obi-Wan. If the Prophesy is true, Anakin IS the Chosen One." - UH...THAT WAS MACE AND IT SOUNDS LIKE HE WAS INSTRUCTING OBI-WAN ALSO. FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW.

ESB, rewritten, "...there you will find Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me along with Mace Windu, Qui-Gon Jinn, Depa Billaba, Adi Gallia, Yarael Poof, Even Piel..[Luke dies of hypothermia at this point]."


Anyway,

In the Prequels we've learned:

1) Anakin had no father - remains to be resolved by Episode 3.
2) Midichlorians enable Jedi to have knowledge of the Force.

Well intuition speaks to you, so figuratively, can the midis. They aren't talking like they are sentient, though - such as Obi-Wan has some midis named Harold and George, but Dooku stabbed George, so Obi-Wan had to get a transfusion of blood he had in storage, so that Harold can talk to Waldo, his new midi-chlorian who will be in Episode 3.

[Waldo the midichlorian has not yet been cast at this point, fyi]

In ESB, Yoda said "Life creates it. Makes it grow."
In ANH, Obi-Wan said "It is an energy field created by all living beings."

In TPM Qui-Gon said "Midichlorians are microscopic lifeforms found in all living beings."

There are living beings the size of bacteria on rocks that Luke levitates on Dagobah. The Jedi might've even discovered that non-organic, non-living things, have living things creating the energy in the electrons of their molecular building blocks. Hence midis are so small they are in non-living things, all matter, and the Jedi can sense them and have discovered how to measure them.

This would be a fascinating topic for a novel or a TV series: "Star Wars CSI" but a little bit technical for a movie, unless SW fans have the patience of Star Trek fans: "Captain the molecular composition of deuterium hull plating armor is highly unstable and difficult to synthesize. Once I isolate the right isotope however, I should be able to test its properties in small quantities against the ship's lab's containment parameters, thus taking us further along with extrapolating a method to diagnose the correct proceedure for a manufactured composition that we can use to imperviate the hull." (Reed to Archer in the Expanse). Imagine Obi-Wan handling this dialogue - but note the character would know and understand exactly what is being talked about because Jedi are highly, highly, highly educated. Only Lucas dumbs-down the SW movies since they are supposed to be entertainment, not credentialed courses in Star Trek science.

Croaker
10-26-2003, 09:09 PM
Thanks for the response.

I see your points. The Waldo/ harold midi stuff was pretty funny.
It is interesting to note that after there was such a bad reaction to that midichlorian stuff that he dropped it from the second movie.

About the 'secrets', the opposite argument could be for dramatic irony.
This is when the audience is privvy to information that the characters don't have and is a recognized technique.
The fact that we, as an audience, having watched the films in order, know who Vader is does not dimish the emotional impact that this info has on Luke in ESB. It colours our knowledge of previous interactions that these characters have had, like when Vader was going to blast him at the end of ANH. Or the relationship between Luke and Leia.
With teh 'reveal' the effect on the characters is the same, but the effect on the audience is completely different than it originally was.
Same with Yoda. You explained it well yourself about how, because we know who he is, we know that Yoda is testing him.

Also, because the films were made this way, I think that they make the most sense when viewed 4,5,6,1,2,3.
Not that this means that I don't plan to watch them 123456 in 2005!

stillakid
10-27-2003, 12:48 AM
;) Well, I won't bother commenting on a lot of that because we've already been through it ad infinitum. It's well established that I disagree and see gobs of blown surprises and mis-continuity in the Prequels. That said, I would like to point out this part:


ESB, rewritten, "...there you will find Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me along with Mace Windu, Qui-Gon Jinn, Depa Billaba, Adi Gallia, Yarael Poof, Even Piel..[Luke dies of hypothermia at this point]."



If I understand your meaning correctly, you're suggesting that Obi Wan (spirit) merely simplified his statement because to list out everyone who supposedly taught him would be ridiculous. I agree! The Prequels set up a ridiculous precedent which wasn't present in the OT. Exactly my point all along. If what you (and George) say is true, that Obi Wan was taught by all these extraneous people, and the OT had no mention of it whatsoever...not even a hint, then one of the trilogies is flawed. I vote on the Prequels because of all the other problems plus that nagging thing about the first thing that's made sets up continuity and stuff.

But what's it matter anymore? Like I've said before, my personal movie-going style isn't to fill in the blanks for gaping holes in a screenplay. Yes, absolutely, every "alternative explanation" I've ever heard to excuse Qui Gon, Midi's, etc. do work if you want them to bad enough. But I personally prefer that the films I see work on their own, without having to refer to conjecture and 3rd party Q&A forums. Episode III is on it's way, and regardless of what anyone says, George is in the driver's seat again. He had a disasterous crash once a long time ago. Let's hope he doesn't repeat it with this saga.

Tycho
10-27-2003, 01:33 AM
Oh boy. :rolleyes: Here we go again...

The beaten horse must be cut up into tiny little pieces so we can make dog food out of it, then eat it, and digest it, and deficate it.

So let's get to it.

Stillakid, you had many teachers in school. For argument's sake, you had:

Mrs. Green
Mr. Brown
Miss Cheese
Mr. Wood
Mrs. Angel
Mrs. Brewer
Mr. Steeler
Ms. Falcoln

and that was just 7th grade English, Math, History, metal shop, phys. ed., biology, drama, and zoology.

You also had 7-8 teachers in 8th grade, etc.

Let's say you became Governor of California in the next recall. Hollywood decided to make a movie about you (so you'd fit right in with the rest of the latest governors) and your political beliefs were born out of your study of history.

And you told your newspaper interviewers, "You will go to the Los Angeles suburbs, and there you will seek out Miss Cheese, the Jr. High School teacher who instructed me."

You had other instructors, but they weren't relevant to this movie about your life, and neither would a movie about the Governor really want to stay focused on his 7th grade year in Jr. High School, either.

Now if another movie about you were made by the same writer and director team, and they wanted to show something new, maybe they'd have some scenes with Mr. Elbow, your 10th grade History teacher instead!

But you like Miss Cheese the best. And no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have to see Miss Cheese in the movie doing exactly everything you remembered she should be doing.

If you don't get your way, you'll cry or something.

But if you don't write, direct, and produce the movie, all you can do is cry. It's not yours to change, and Mr. Elbow is as valid of character as

"Mace Windu, the Jedi Master who also instructed me, during the Clone Wars."

Stillakid, your main problem is that Lucas robbed you of your fantasy of what Yoda's role in Obi-Wan's life was, and whatever you wanted to see Obi-Wan's character do with his relationship with Anakin.

You've got this perfect story, like mine where Dooku is Anakin's father, and Han Solo is from a new breed of Clones, and you can't let it go.

2-1B
10-27-2003, 02:22 AM
Oh boy. :rolleyes: Here we go again...

The beaten horse must be cut up into tiny little pieces so we can make dog food out of it, then eat it, and digest it, and deficate it.

Actually, I was planning to make glue. :D


-------------------------------------------------------------------------



As far as the Yoda thing, well he did say that he trained Jedi for 800 years or whatever . . . he never really said how many he trained at a time.

Ben cites Yoda as being the Jedi to instruct him.

I was just thinking about Ben in ANH when he said "Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine" . . . not sure why I thought of it, I just figured maybe it fits in somewhere.

Basically I think that it is a logical assumption to make based just off the OT that Yoda was Ben's master and that Ben "found" Anakin . . . but I don't think the OT excludes the storylines Lucas came up with for the prequels. As it stands now, I guess the OT only showed us tiny glimpses of what it was like to be a Jedi back in the day of Obi-Wan and Anakin. Is it different than I (and stillakid :D ) assumed all those years?
Yes.
Is it a contradiction in continuity?
No. :)

stillakid
10-27-2003, 10:41 AM
Stillakid, your main problem is that Lucas robbed you of your fantasy of what Yoda's role in Obi-Wan's life was, and whatever you wanted to see Obi-Wan's character do with his relationship with Anakin.


;) Absolutely not. This isn't my idea of what the story should be. It's not mine to write. These objections are based on what George himself established 25-ish years ago and I'm not prone to rationalize away the incongruities, no matter how major or minor, to make up for a screenplay (or two) that should have been solidly written in the first place. I could personally care less what Obi Wan's history is so long as it conforms perfectly to what George established it would be. He didn't do that, so I pointed it out. What's the problem?


By the way, hope you're clear of the fire down there. Stay safe.

Tycho
10-27-2003, 10:52 AM
Thanks. The smoke is pretty bad, and there's ash from the fires on all the cars and streets and in the pool. The sky is red. It's awful.

Anyway, George didn't establish that Obi-Wan could pilot a ship or swim either. He's not contradicting continuity with Qui-Gon or midichlorians.

He could still add to continuity saying the Keebler elves created midichlorians in a little lab on Dantooine and have secretly been injecting them into Jedi for 25,000 years. That wouldn't contradict TPM either.

You only have a problem with it because you don't like it, or you like to argue about it.

Obi-Wan did not mention Yoda in ANH, therefore ESB is contradictory to continuity with your logic. See what I mean?

stillakid
10-27-2003, 11:12 AM
Thanks. The smoke is pretty bad, and there's ash from the fires on all the cars and streets and in the pool. The sky is red. It's awful.

Anyway, George didn't establish that Obi-Wan could pilot a ship or swim either. He's not contradicting continuity with Qui-Gon or midichlorians.

He could still add to continuity saying the Keebler elves created midichlorians in a little lab on Dantooine and have secretly been injecting them into Jedi for 25,000 years. That wouldn't contradict TPM either.

You only have a problem with it because you don't like it, or you like to argue about it.

Obi-Wan did not mention Yoda in ANH, therefore ESB is contradictory to continuity with your logic. See what I mean?


First the Yoda thing...no, wrong. ESB came after ANH in the timeline so it is impossible to contradict it. Unless Ben said something specifically in ANH like, "I was the only Jedi left living from the purge," then yes, Yoda's addition would be a contradiction. But he never said or implied anything of the sort, so Yoda is allowed.

As far as having established things like swimming or piloting, again, nothing was stated in the OT which would forbid additions like that, unless again, it was specifically stated in the OT (the previously established continuity) that Obi Wan couldn't or didn't ever swim or pilot a ship.

But additions like a new master for Anakin (a guy who finds him, is surprised at how strongly the Force is with him and decides to train him as a Jedi) is in direct contradiction with what was stated previously. It's not that I don't like it, it's that George established it and then broke his own rule. Why is this so difficult to understand? :confused: Or maybe it's just difficult to accept? :sur:


And yes, Keebler elves could be added to the storyline with no problem because so little information has been given regarding how the whole Midi thing works and there is nothing in the saga which specifically denies the acceptability of including Keebler elves themselves or their role in the manufacture and distribution of Midichlorians. :)

JEDIpartner
10-27-2003, 01:41 PM
Off the subject, but...



In 1980 we shared frustration with "the little green knome for delaying Luke so that it took him longer to find Yoda."

======

Stillakid, you had many teachers in school. For argument's sake, you had:

Mrs. Green
Mr. Brown
Miss Cheese
Mr. Wood
Mrs. Angel
Mrs. Brewer
Mr. Steeler
Ms. Falcoln

and that was just 7th grade English, Math, History, metal shop, phys. ed., biology, drama, and zoology.

You also had 7-8 teachers in 8th grade, etc...Hey Stillakid...! Did your teachers teach you to spell "gnome" with a "G" or a "K" like Tycho's teachers did...? ;)

Just messing with you Tycho, old bean...!

Tycho
10-27-2003, 01:46 PM
LOL! Oooops.

jedi master sal
10-28-2003, 12:44 PM
This bickering is pointless (Too take from our favorite Imperial Grand Moff)

You can argue it either way.

You can justify what is said in the originals by using Obi's point of view line.

Or you can be just as passionate about the dialogue being taken literally. I personally don't like to have to explain to non-fans why this and what that. And I do believe Lucas screwed with continuity. That said, it can all be reasonably explained away. Again that shouldn't have to be left on the shoulders of the fans to explain to others though.

As to Yoda, I realize back then at a ripe age of 10 that Yoda was testing Luke.

Also, I think I'm mature enough to be able to seperate myself from the reveals fo the prequels with the truths of the originals.

Ben did teach Anakin who later became Vader so he was his pupil just not when he was Vader. Also, Ben was trying to protect Luke from the WHOLE truth because he already knew of the impatience of the Skywalker line having dealt with it first hane and reasonably assumed that Not only would Luke follow him on some damn-fooled idealistic crusade like his father but would be impetuous enough to follow in Anakin's footsteps and fall to the Dark side. He needed to keep the whole truth from being heard so as to train Luke enough so that He could handle the truth.

The whole deal with yoda instructing Obi was clearly defined when it is seen that Yoda teaches the padawan initiates (kids). It s reasonably assumed from this scene that Yoda teaches ALL padawan kids and therefore at an early stage in Obi-wan life taught him as well.

Now see how exhaustive this al is. Your both right Stillakid and Tycho. So am I and so are the rest of the fans. It all comes down to this. Does it really matter? Shock value or no these movies are out there for anyone to see in whatever order they want to see them in. Agreeably the revelation that Vader is Luke's father in ESB is somewhat dimished in our emotions, but is not in the character of Luke and never will be. Go back and watch it again and ooh guess what, he's just as surprised as he was 23 years ago...

Sorry for the long post but it's a rather ridiculous argument. George does what he does.

imĚpetĚuĚous ** (*P*)**Pronunciation Key**(m-pch-s)
adj.

1. Characterized by sudden and forceful energy or emotion; impulsive and passionate.
2. Having or marked by violent force: impetuous, heaving waves.


Okay nuff said.

stillakid
10-28-2003, 03:15 PM
You can argue it either way.

You can justify what is said in the originals by using Obi's point of view line.

Or you can be just as passionate about the dialogue being taken literally. .


This is all I've ever said. :) On one hand, Lucas clearly messed with continuity, however with enough rationalization and arguing, you can somehow make it all work out so it seems as if there are no problems. Whichever method of entertainment enjoyment you prefer is cool. I myself play that game with other films that I really want to enjoy, like SPEED or INDEPENDENCE DAY. I'm personally not one to cut G any slack on this. But that's my own choice. :cool:

2-1B
10-29-2003, 02:27 AM
Alright stillakid, then why don't you "want" to enjoy the prequels? You know movies like Speed and ID4 are garbage, yet you choose to enjoy them. You know TPM and AOTC are garbage, yet you slam them for being no worse than Speed or ID4.

Oh that's right, it's because Lucasfilm set the bar so high with ANH and ESB. So technically, you've been upset with Star Wars for just over 20 years now, right? Since ROTJ came out, I imagine . . .

Or are you just ticked that Lucas fooled you a bit during your first viewing of AOTC? ;)

And why OH WHY would you collect toys from movies you so passionately dislike? I didn't totally hate Spider-Man but I wasn't gonna go out and buy their merchandise, I'll tell you that. :p

Anakin2121
10-29-2003, 10:16 AM
I wish I knew why people hated the prequels so much. The OT was just as lame, really, with plenty of cheesy dialogue, but nowadays the lines are considered "classic."
It's because today's adult fans grew up with the OT and they think it's all magical. But if you take away the twenty-something years of delusion and nostalgia, the two trilogies are pretty much the same.

I like the Star Wars saga. Both halves of it. :)

scruffziller
10-29-2003, 11:24 AM
I like that animation where Palpatine becomes all Emperor-y, though. :p
Yea it looks like he is turning into one of those aliens from ST: TOS ep THE CAGE.:D

Tycho
10-29-2003, 01:09 PM
I wish I knew why people hated the prequels so much. The OT was just as lame, really, with plenty of cheesy dialogue, but nowadays the lines are considered "classic."
It's because today's adult fans grew up with the OT and they think it's all magical. But if you take away the twenty-something years of delusion and nostalgia, the two trilogies are pretty much the same.

I like the Star Wars saga. Both halves of it. :)

I totally agree with this. Fans of yesterday are the adult cynics of today.

I think I've enjoyed life more because I've looked at it through the eyes of a child. I've hardly changed since I was a little kid and first saw SW in the theaters. Sure, now I've been to school and qualified myself for an adult career to support the kid in me, but I'm still a kid. And I've loved every installment in Star Wars - especially AOTC lately.

Anakin2121
10-29-2003, 01:42 PM
I totally agree with this. Fans of yesterday are the adult cynics of today.

I think I've enjoyed life more because I've looked at it through the eyes of a child. I've hardly changed since I was a little kid and first saw SW in the theaters. Sure, now I've been to school and qualified myself for an adult career to support the kid in me, but I'm still a kid. And I've loved every installment in Star Wars - especially AOTC lately.

Finally, someone who agrees with me! :happy:

scruffziller
10-29-2003, 02:24 PM
I like the Star Wars saga. Both halves of it. :)
With any luck, all thirds of them.:crazed:

stillakid
10-30-2003, 09:43 AM
Alright stillakid, then why don't you "want" to enjoy the prequels? You know movies like Speed and ID4 are garbage, yet you choose to enjoy them. You know TPM and AOTC are garbage, yet you slam them for being no worse than Speed or ID4.

Oh that's right, it's because Lucasfilm set the bar so high with ANH and ESB. So technically, you've been upset with Star Wars for just over 20 years now, right? Since ROTJ came out, I imagine . . .

Or are you just ticked that Lucas fooled you a bit during your first viewing of AOTC? ;)

And why OH WHY would you collect toys from movies you so passionately dislike? I didn't totally hate Spider-Man but I wasn't gonna go out and buy their merchandise, I'll tell you that. :p


Now those are REALLY good questions! I've been wondering this myself, particularly in light of the storage issue I'm facing. :D

Yes, the OT set the high standard. You're implying that there is something faulty with that? :confused: Many people have the same feeling concerning something like Godfather 3. While entertaining, it kind of lacked some of the overall quality of its predecessors. Same for the ALIEN series. Arguably the same for PREDATOR. Some might even put TEMPLE OF DOOM in that category save that it came inbetween the two better films.

In any case, I never had as big a problem with ROTJ as many others have. Nor have I ever had a big problem with the goofball Jar Jar Binks in TPM. A little strange, sure, but compared to the rest of that mess, he was a footnote. Point being, there are aspects to ALL the films which I like. The stories of the OT I really like. The style of ANH and ESB I love. ROTJ gets a bit on the kiddie side, but it's still pretty good. TPM and AOTC are very cartoony and the stories are stranded in first draft mode, but the production design is up to par with the OT.

So, no, I only recently became disenchanted with the franchise after watching the trainwreck which is called Episode I. Hopes rose a bit with Episode II, but there still isn't enough to the story to call it a success. As I mentioned, both are stuck in the early draft stage. If only he would have let go of ego and hired a qualified WGA writer (I know, because I've talked to the guy who was ready to sign on the dotted line), we'd be having a different conversation right now. Some have even postulated that it's because I know too much about the inner workings of the business that I can't see this through a child's eyes. Rubbish. That knowledge only lets me see the reasons behind why I haven't enjoyed the Prequels that much, it's not the cause.

The toys? It's a sick and depraved drive to have a "complete" collection after missing out on the POTF coin figures because I got interested in other stuff like cars and girls in high school. :D Admittedly I need therapy for it, but I don't want to have that happen again. Besides, little 4" versions of all this stuff is kinda cool. I have toys from other "properties" that I don't even know the stories for. Is there a prerequisite to like the background of a thing before you can own it's likeness?

2-1B
10-30-2003, 02:11 PM
Fair enough. :)

No, I don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with the OT setting a high standard (I just don't think it is as high as others believe).

I was just seriously wondering (not even being sarcastic) why you don't just choose to enjoy the prequels like you do ID4, Speed, et. al when you even admit that there is at least SOME stuff to like about the prequels.

Join me as a non-completist, you'll be glad you did. I've been "clean" for 4-5 years now and it's a decision I'm glad I made. :)

stillakid
10-30-2003, 10:53 PM
Fair enough. :)

No, I don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with the OT setting a high standard (I just don't think it is as high as others believe).

I was just seriously wondering (not even being sarcastic) why you don't just choose to enjoy the prequels like you do ID4, Speed, et. al when you even admit that there is at least SOME stuff to like about the prequels.

Join me as a non-completist, you'll be glad you did. I've been "clean" for 4-5 years now and it's a decision I'm glad I made. :)


Well, I'm too far gone now to ever go back. Both for the toys and for the films. It's possible to let go of, how'd JJB put it, the "nitpicking" for something like ID4 because it is a standalone movie. There is no other "sequel" to compare it to. It sets its own standard and lives and dies by it. In 1977, A New Hope did the same and managed to stay in many theaters for over a year continuously. Arguably, EVERYBODY compares each new Star Wars film to that first one (ie, ESB was "better" or ROTJ was "for kids"). But they can only make those kind of statements because the very first one set the bar at a certain level by which we all judge the rest by, either better or worse. Had TPM come out first, who knows what the reaction would have been? With no continuity to be beholden to and (presumably) no other films like it (had it been released in 1977), then yeah, sure, maybe it would have been perceived as "great" by the masses. But it wasn't released first, it wasn't released then and it wasn't perceived as great by the masses. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

The toys have me by the nads. I've tried to look away from the toy aisle, but I can't stay away. Is there a Betty Ford Clinic for the toy collector?

2-1B
10-31-2003, 04:26 AM
Interesting . . . you see, I was not born until ANH was already one year old so I grew up watching the movies "as a whole."
I do love ANH but personally I think it is much better in light of ESB and ROTJ.
As a stand alone it's alright but without the rest of the trilogy I honestly don't think I would be a fan of the movie this many years later.

This could be a good thread topic for the OT forum. :)

scruffziller
10-31-2003, 10:26 AM
something like ID4 because it is a standalone movie. There is no other "sequel" to compare it to. It sets its own standard and lives and dies by it.
Not so fast.:)
ID4 2 is already in the works.

Tycho
10-31-2003, 02:26 PM
I don't know if they SHOULD do an ID4 part II.

It will feel too much like the aftermath of September 11.

BFett88
10-31-2003, 05:17 PM
I just read, this info at TheForce.net. I can't believe that he is killing off Padme. Lea said in Episode 6 that she remembers her mother. How can you remember your mother if you are 10 minuets old. Sounds like the biggest hole in the series to me. Unless Lucas makes an Extra Special Edition of the OT. And it seems like there will only be about 5 minuets if we are lucky of the real Vader. I wanted to see him kick some ***. Man this sucks. This will be the most dissapointing prequil of all. What even more sucks is that I tried to remain spoiler free, I tried, but failed. I lasted until now. Oh well what are you going to do. No surprises for the last film of the Star Wars Saga, for me.

Tycho
10-31-2003, 05:24 PM
There has been speculation that Leia remembers through her connection to the Force.

There has also been speculation that Leia remembers someone from the Organa Household - Bail's wife? Or someone who died early in Leia's life.

SW is a tragedy. So maybe we'll learn in ROTJ, that Leia actually has no real memory of her real mother either.

It would fit with a restoration of the Jedi pattern: no attachments to their parents.

Luke doesn't know his parents; neither does Leia.

So when Luke does confront his father, Vader is not an influence on Luke's behavior. He almost became so, but Luke spared his life.

BFett88
10-31-2003, 05:36 PM
Speculation all you want. It will still be a huge hole. It is just frustraiting. You know.

2-1B
11-01-2003, 02:25 AM
I think it sucks, too. Leia should get to hang with her mother for a few years. :(

Tycho
11-01-2003, 03:24 AM
Like a Star Wars version of the Gilmore Girls?

stillakid
11-01-2003, 10:00 AM
There has been speculation that Leia remembers through her connection to the Force.

:rolleyes: Oh brother. I hope that this isn't a serious possibility. "Remembering" through the Force? What the hell is that?

scruffziller
11-01-2003, 10:33 AM
:rolleyes: Oh brother. I hope that this isn't a serious possibility. "Remembering" through the Force? What the hell is that?
While in the womb. Leia says she remembers feelings. Anikin Solo was in tune to the force while unborn.