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mrmiller
10-23-2003, 12:19 PM
I was debating this with a friend of mine the other day- What do you think about Special Edition DVDís. Iím talking about real ďSpecial EditionsĒ that have extra footage different from the theatrical release incorporated in them. I guess this would include ďDirectors CutsĒ and ďExtended EditionsĒ as well, but not ones labeled Special Edition that just have some extras added to the disk and not into the movie itself.

I can understand some people not liking them, as they take away from the original feel of the movie, and what they liked about them the first time. But I myself really like them. I look forward to seeing what all is changed and different than the original cut. It also is like getting a new movie that I havenít seen before, instead of just watching the same movie as before. Sometimes I donít agree with some of the additions and/or changes, but normally that doesnít change how I feel about the film. Actually, it very rarely makes a movie worse and mostly make the movie that much better. The LOTR FOTR Extended Edition is a prime example of this. Not only do the additions make FOTR better, but they make The Two Towers better as well. I canít imagine seeing TTT without seeing the gift-giving scene from the extend version of FOTR.

But one thing about DVDís and DVD technology. Why can they not include both versions on the same DVD? Few movies do this (The Stargate SE, Lion King and Beauty of the Beast SEís) and it seems like anyone who is going to release a SE version could as well. Maybe Iím confused about the technology involved, but to me the only reason a company would not release a SE disk with the option of watching it in itís original form is to try and make a few more bucks getting you to buy both versions. But if thatís the case, why release the SE after the original version? And if you do, then why not still include the option to watch the original version?

Just a few thoughts and rants- Whatís your take?

=MATT=

scruffziller
10-23-2003, 12:24 PM
If GL is going to close the book on the OT once and for all with tinkering with it.
GIVE US EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All versions, all outtakes, deleted scenes, featurettes, promotions, makings of, picture stills. Granted it might be a $200-$300 20 disk set but I would buy it in a heartbeat. And I speak for a great deal many of the fans out there. If GL wants to cash in big here is his chance.

bobafrett
10-23-2003, 01:42 PM
If GL is going to close the book on the OT once and for all with tinkering with it.
GIVE US EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All versions, all outtakes, deleted scenes, featurettes, promotions, makings of, picture stills. Granted it might be a $200-$300 20 disk set but I would buy it in a heartbeat. And I speak for a great deal many of the fans out there. If GL wants to cash in big here is his chance.

I'd have to agree with Scruffziller there, even though he is Jedi Ambassador scum. I'd rather get a complete set with both versions, outtakes, the making of, commercials, trailers, behind the scenes. Just quit pulling us around, and making all these different versions with added THX sound, then the Special Edition. I'm tired of it.

mrmiller
10-23-2003, 02:22 PM
I was really talking about Special Editions in general, not specifically the Star Wars Special editions. But when they do the OT, why not include both version as well?

=MATT=

El Chuxter
10-23-2003, 02:42 PM
1) Special Editions are a mixed bag. The extended cut of Terminator 2, for instance, is excellent. Far better than the original. But just look at The Lion King for an example of a useless SE. The song is bad, the animation is subpar, and overall, it just doesn't fit in the movie.

2) I hate any kind of expanded re-release. Well, not any kind. There are a few movies that were slighted the first time around, like Monty Python & the Holy Grail. But for every one example like that, there are fifteen American Pies. (I think there are either six or eight versions of that one! :eek: )

3) Lucas has said the originals "don't exist," or that he considers them to be early works in progress. Whether he'll ever change his mind is anyone's guess.

Beast
10-23-2003, 02:53 PM
I have both the Original Cut and the Special Edition Cut on Laserdisc. And to be honest, I don't even watch the original cuts anymore. I prefer the special editions, in most respects. All Lucas needs to do is re-tweak the 'Greedo' scene and the 'Jabba' scene in ANH, and I'm cool with it. With the state of CGI now, I'm sure they can make Jabba look 100 times better. So as long as Lucas is happy with what he puts out, I don't care if it's his finalized SE DVD's. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

evenflow
10-23-2003, 05:42 PM
I agree if Lucas gets rid of Greedo shooting first, and fixes up Jabba a little I will be happy with the Special Editions.

Mandalorian Candidat
10-23-2003, 06:41 PM
Mr. Miller and I have the same beef. Why can't special editions/extended versions contain options for to play either one or the other on the same disc? I'm sure PJ could have done it on FotR.

I cite as my example the original X-Men special edition DVD. They have the option where you can either watch the movie as was originally released or with the deleted scenes added in. It's fairly flawless. I don't recall if it is the same format with the Stargate disc but I imagine they don't put two completely different films on one disc, just an option to insert (or delete, depending on how you look at it) the extra footage.

I love the EE of FotR, but sometimes I want to just watch the theatrical version due to time constraints. Is it so hard to provide both on the same disc?

Beast
10-23-2003, 06:56 PM
Depends on the amount of changes done to a movie, whether it's feasible or not to put both on the same disc. With Star Wars, it would likely be impossible. Just due to the number of minor changes throughout the entire films. Plus Lucas considers the original versions to be unfinished works in progress. So will likely not release them that way. He's been saying that since the S.E.'s came out. And stated it again not that long ago. As an artist, it's his right.

Note that the more things you cram on the disc, means that sacrifices need to be made. Such as encoding the video at a lower bitrate to squeeze things on. When you do that, you start getting video compression artifacts popping into the pictures. That's why they've been going to 2-discs for most movies with a Theatrical and S.E./D.C. version. Such as the latest Stargate and Legend releases. Plus some players and people have trouble with the Seamless Branching used for incorperating new scenes. Since it causes a brief pause as the player acesses those scenes.

Note also that audio tracks take up some room as well. Such as the case with LOTR's 4 Audio Comentaries, etc. That's why the EE was split over 2 discs, so that it could maintain the highest quality video and audio. And PJ did release the theatrical versions of both films months before the EE. And none of the extras are carried over from one version to the other. So owning both is no big deal. Fitting the original version would have been improbable, as it would have meant encoding at a lower bitrate. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mrmiller
10-23-2003, 08:54 PM
I agree that for some movies it might not be possible. Like for Star wars with many minor changes throughout, or LOTR that spans 2 disks, but for many (or most) I don't see why it would be such a big deal. The seamless branching shouldn't be a problem, I'm sorry to say, but if your DVD player can't havdle it, move up to a better DVD player. That or just accept the 1/2 second pause. I mean, you don't gripe because you can't get a high res picture on your $99 TV or that you can't get stereo sound out of your mono VCR. Sometimes you just have to sacrifice a bit to keep up with technology.

Most are just an extra scene or two spliced in anyhow, so the seemless branching technique would be perfect, and is on the movies that incorporate it. I just wish more movies would do the same.

And for Bit rate- that's why I love the 2 DVD sets. Keep the extras on a seperate DVD and max out your Bit rate. As much as I like the comentary tracks- get as many people together as possible and do as few as possible. Since you have to have a different region DVD player to play DVD's from a different region where the language may be different (that's a lot of differents)- keep off some of those extra language tracks and max out the bitrate. I mean, why is it neccessary to have a French track on my Wrath of Kahn Regoin 1 NTSC DVD?

Yes the Xmen is like the Stargate SE in that respect, and they both pull it off perfectly.

=MATT=

Beast
10-23-2003, 09:03 PM
Why is it necissary to have a French track on a Region 1 NTSC DVD? Actually the answer to that is very simple. Canada is Region 1 also, and a large majority of the populace in Canada is French speaking. :)

As for Stargate. I prefer the newer 2-disc edition with the Theatrical on one DVD. And the S.E./D.C. on another DVD. Especially with the commentary and the other extras that were included. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mrmiller
10-23-2003, 09:14 PM
Why is it necissary to have a French track on a Region 1 NTSC DVD? Actually the answer to that is very simple. Canada is Region 1 also, and a large majority of the populace in Canada is French speaking. :)

As for Stargate. I prefer the newer 2-disc edition with the Theatrical on one DVD. And the S.E./D.C. on another DVD. Especially with the commentary and the other extras that were included. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks


Ahhh.. I stand corrected. I about forgot about my friends from the great white north. :)

But I still want max bit rate. I dont have the 2 disk Stargate, buying the previous 2 editions was enough.

=MATT=

Exhaust Port
10-23-2003, 09:32 PM
There are a few movies that were slighted the first time around, like Monty Python & the Holy Grail. But for every one example like that, there are fifteen American Pies.
Perfect example. Actually on a trip to Best Buy today I saw that they have release a Collectors Edition of MP & THG. Argh! I already have the movie twice thanks to the previous releases and now another?

That is my problem with the process. You buy a movie, and then a few months later they throw another version out there. Now I understand this is how they "get you" by hoping the true fans will buy the same movie over and over again with each improved release. We'll that was true for me at first but now I don't buy a lot of my long time favorites with the assumption that at some point they'll release the "Final" version with all the bells and whistles. It's already paying off with A Christmas Story being released in Widescreen finally.

So rather than push out a poor product the first time, spend a little more time getting the product right the first time. Warner Bros. is the biggest violator of this. I think every movie they've released (at least those that I'm interested in) have gotten treated absolutely poorly. They throw the movie on a disc, throw in Bios of the actors and call it a DVD! Not ot mention those stupid boxes. The Right Stuff is a movie itching to have a great bundle of information thrown in with it but they've done nothing with it. I'm not even looking for a Special Edition, how about just a good normal edition?

Beast
10-23-2003, 09:57 PM
That new Collector's Edition of MP & THG is the same 2-discs from the SE release a little while ago. They just re-issued it with a book of the script, or something like that. :)

As for duplicate releases of the same movies. Sometimes it's because the DVD was an early release, before the movie really got a lot of attention and they decided to revisit it. Or a sufficant amount of time has passed, and they can do a really good bells and whistles release with extras. Sometimes it's to tie into the sequel, like the T2 eXtreme DVD.

And sometimes, it's because the studio wants a DVD out, before the people making it have a chance to finish getting the extras together. Such is the case with the upcoming release of T3. The director already said that he's planning a SE at some point. But WB wanted it out in November for the Christmas season. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

scruffziller
10-24-2003, 08:22 AM
I was really talking about Special Editions in general, not specifically the Star Wars Special editions. But when they do the OT, why not include both version as well?

=MATT=
Oh my bad....:o Kinda skimmed the post sorry...

But my attitude that I put in the previous post about the SW DVDs is how I feel about all movies. One incident made me real mad and that was when the STAR TREK: TMP DVD came out. I was used to seeing the "Extra Special Longer Version" as it was worded.:D The DVD has those deleted scenes but you can't incorperate them into the rest of the film to watch as a whole, that really chaffs my hide. But also, I think seeing the extra scenes adds in all ways. The original feel of the movie is there and enhanced.

Beast
10-24-2003, 08:36 AM
Why does ST: TMP make you mad? It's exactly what it was advertised as being. Star Trek: The Motion Picture was a special director's cut. In which some of the deleted scenes were incorperated into the movie under the supervision of the director. As well as having several of the bad special effects revamped. The original theatrical version runs 132 minutes and the final D.C. DVD was 136 minutes. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Anakin2121
10-24-2003, 09:55 AM
All Lucas needs to do is re-tweak the 'Greedo' scene and the 'Jabba' scene in ANH, and I'm cool with it. With the state of CGI now, I'm sure they can make Jabba look 100 times better.


Agreed! Heck, the CG Jabba looked dang near perfect even in TPM!!!

JON9000
10-24-2003, 12:00 PM
jury's out on this one for me. I generally like having the theatrical cut and the extended version in the same package. I often find extended cuts interesting, but often I discover that I like the theatrical cut more, because pacing is improved and in some cases the emotional impact is greater.

Some that I love:

ST:TPM- that old video version was just tooooo long. And the new effects are gorgeous. Its amazing that a 25 year old film blows Nemesis out of the water.
BLADERUNNER- The commentary sucked, and so did the cribbed footage from the Shining. Although sometimes the exposition helped- I find myself explaining a lot to first time viewers.

Some that I am glad are out there, but I prefer the theatrical cut:

TERMINATOR 2- Pacing is a problem with the extended cut- particularly with the chip being taken out and the dream sequence. Although I really like the malfunctioning of the T-1000 at the end. I do not like the fact that in one year another version will be out.
FOTR- Too long. The film porks in at nearly 4 hours, and life is short. I liked seeing the scenes, but I could live without them.
SUPERMAN- I really have mixed feelings here- the new sound effects and the music are amazing. And I dig the gauntlet. But the extra Jor-El stuff is unecessary and the bit with Lois on the train is awful. What, she's like 9 when Clark is 18? He's 30 when he gets to Metropolis, so she's a 21 year old ace reporter?

Some that bite:

ALIENS- All that business about Ripley's daughter and the early LV-427 footage I always skip. It sucks. I find the film much scarier when the Marines search the place without us having seen it before. It puts you in the same shoes as the Marines.
ANY SPECIAL EDITION WITH NOTHING SPECIAL- these "Special Editions" are usually nothing of the kind. They just slap the label on a disk for apparently no reason.

scruffziller
10-24-2003, 01:29 PM
Why does ST: TMP make you mad? It's exactly what it was advertised as being. Star Trek: The Motion Picture was a special director's cut. In which some of the deleted scenes were incorperated into the movie under the supervision of the director. As well as having several of the bad special effects revamped. The original theatrical version runs 132 minutes and the final D.C. DVD was 136 minutes. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar BinksNot the movie itself, just the newly released version on DVD.
I never saw anything but the director's cut(special extra longer version, non theatrical on VHS Collectors Edition) and having to see those deleted scenes seperate apart from the movie itself from what I fell in love with is heartbreaking because it is my fav ST: OS film. The version on the DVD is shorter than the one I know that came out in the 80s. I am sure you know which one it is JJ but for those of you out there who don't I'll post a pic. It is like always have watched LOTR's extended version and then have to see the theatrical version in a new future format way in the future whenever that happens. The little nuances that they cut for pacing is like ripping a piece of skin off. The part where Kirk is suppose to be trying to wake Spock, and he pushes away Bones as Bones is trying to stop him(from the CE) not being there in the DVD version drives me insane even though it is a second or two long.:cry: What would you rather have. a 2 1/2 hour version of LOTR of the entire story or one long 9-10 hour GEEK FEST!!!!!!!!!!:D When I want to watch a movie, I want to watch a movie!!!!!!:crazed:

scruffziller
02-04-2004, 02:14 PM
I'd have to agree with Scruffziller there, even though he is Jedi Ambassador scum. Correction now, jedi MASTER!!!!!!:crazed:

Don't worry, I'm an imperial MASTER SEARGENT on SW Galaxies. Working hard for the Empire.:D Almost a Warrant Officer II.


The original theatrical version runs 132 minutes and the final D.C. DVD was 136 minutes. :)

Not to rehash JJ, but the Collectors Edition(even though it was FOOL SCREEN:cry: ), is 143 minutes.

Exhaust Port
02-04-2004, 08:19 PM
I finally got around to watching my Anniversary Edition of A Christmas Story this last weekend. It's a great improvement over the last but still lacking. Obviously the only people they could get to be involved with the DVD project was the director, and the actors playing Ralphy, Flick and the Bully. Now Ralphy and the Director added a lot to the commentary and the extras but what about all the the actors. Not one bit of influence.

Now I'm sure they were asked but declined for whatever reason. I guess compared to current and future movies, old movies are going to look pale in comparison when it comes to actor involvment. With the success of the media, movie houses will probably pen clauses in contracts to address involvment with DVD releases which is great. But it does nothing to help older movies that might not get the full attention that fans would like.

I guess I'm spoiled. The extras where fine but not what I really wanted to see (I wanted more). If nothing else, it's awesome to finally have the movie in Widescreen!! :)