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LucasBlows
10-26-2003, 01:13 AM
Just thought it would be fun to compare the originals (yes, originals not "special editions." I grew up in a world where Greedo didn't shoot first) and the crappy, lame, boring, etc... new films.

1a) ESB: A horrified Luke learns that his mortal enemy, Darth Vader, fathered him.

1b) EP1: A horrified audience learns that Anakin Skywalker is fathered by the Force, essentially making him Christ.

2a) SW-ROTJ: R2-D2 and C-3PO are useful parts of this world. Opening doors, co-piloting ships, fixing hyper-drives and interporeting other languages.

2b) EP1-2: R2-D2 and C-3PO are just here. R2 really doesn’t do anything and C-3PO is turned into a sad sight gag.

3a) SW-ROTJ: Luke is young, impulsive, and eager.

3b) EP1-2: Anakin is young, impulsive, eager and whiney.

4a) SW: The Force is all around us. It binds the Galaxy together.

4b) EP1: The Force is essentially a blood desease.

5a) ESB: Han/Leia love story is superbly written, directed and plays out beautifully. (NOTE: George Lucas didn’t write this one)

5b) EP2: Anakin/Amidala love story is rushed, sloppy, and disjointed. And why does she love this whinny annoying *****. (NOTE: George Lucas wrote this one)

6a) ROTJ: We thought Ewoks were bad.

6) EP1-2: Jar Jar Binks is the single most annoying creature created by CG. EVER. That yellow thing in Lost in Space wasn’t as annoying. And it seemed a good idea at first to make him the reason Palpatine becomes Emperor, but seriously, would anyone actually leave this moron in charge of a senate seat?

7a) ROTJ: Epic sword fight. Darth Vader is dramatically defeated.

7b) EP1: Epic sword fight. Obi-Wan flips over Darth Maul, levatates a saber and cuts him down while this agile enemy who’s been holding off two jedi, one he’s already defeated, JUST STANDS THERE.

8a) SW: Young Luke Skywalker, who piloted T-16’s back home, destoys the Death Star using skill and the Force.

8b) EP1: Prepubescent Anakin Skywalker, who’s barely out of diapers, destroys the Droid Command Ship using the ancient art of dumb luck.

9a) SW: Luke pilots this cool looking Rebel X-Wing through Death Star trenches.

9b) EP1: Anakin pilots this piece of crap called a Pod Racer on a long, boring, drawn out race which sucked massive amounts of Bantha poo.

stillakid
10-26-2003, 01:18 AM
Well, there really isn't too much else to add. ;) To this day, I'm having trouble understanding how anyone can overlook many of the points you've made above and still manage to enjoy the Prequels as much as, or more than, the originals.

But hey, it takes all kinds to fill this big blue world. I like a lot of poorly written films too...just not these couple. :)

2-1B
10-26-2003, 03:04 AM
What's more, most of the people I know in the "real world" roll their eyes at ALL Star Wars films in general. You can roll out the classics all you want to show how "superb" they are . . . but all 5 of these movies are actually pretty crappy compared to so many other films. :p



3a) SW-ROTJ: Luke is young, impulsive, and eager.

3b) EP1-2: Anakin is young, impulsive, eager and whiney.


Luke wasn't whiney in ANH and ESB ? :confused:
Mark Hamill redefined ham in those 2 films IMO. :p
Thankfully the character evolved by ROTJ or he would be a complete waste in the first 2 films.

plo koon 200
10-26-2003, 11:46 AM
Luke is very whiney in ANH and gets less whiney as the film progresses. I see this somewhat happening with Anakin.

You know there are some crazy things in the OT that don't make sense but are often over-locked like the trashcompactor which had a gigantic living organism. Or some of the really fake looking puppets. Or Boba Fett (no EU) dying in the Sarlac pit just because he is accidently hit. We can go on and on about all five films and see that they all have their faults.

stillakid
10-26-2003, 11:57 AM
What's more, most of the people I know in the "real world" roll their eyes at ALL Star Wars films in general. You can roll out the classics all you want to show how "superb" they are . . . but all 5 of these movies are actually pretty crappy compared to so many other films. :p


I wouldn't say that. ANH and ESB have traditionally been well recieved by non-StarWarsy types. ROTJ gets a little cartoony, but the first two are pretty solid stories with good acting (despite the odd claims to the contrary :confused: ) and excellent production values. No, they don't have "Oscar calibur" :rolleyes: actors in them (aside from Alec) and certain types of genres never get a fair shot against "serious" films, but I'd put ANH and ESB up against any "Oscar pick" any day.

derek
10-26-2003, 02:28 PM
Just thought it would be fun to compare the originals (yes, originals not "special editions." I grew up in a world where Greedo didn't shoot first) and the crappy, lame, boring, etc... new films.

1a) ESB: A horrified Luke learns that his mortal enemy, Darth Vader, fathered him.

1b) EP1: A horrified audience learns that Anakin Skywalker is fathered by the Force, essentially making him Christ.

who's horrified? have you polled everyone who's seen this movie? i don't have a problem with this. lucas has said he borrows from our myths, and this is completley in line with our myths and religions. besides, we may be suprised as to who anakin's father turns out to be...
2a) SW-ROTJ: R2-D2 and C-3PO are useful parts of this world. Opening doors, co-piloting ships, fixing hyper-drives and interporeting other languages.

2b) EP1-2: R2-D2 and C-3PO are just here. R2 really doesn’t do anything and C-3PO is turned into a sad sight gag.
C-3PO did nothng in the OT but complain. R2 saved the queen's star ship in episode 1 and saved padme in episode 2

3a) SW-ROTJ: Luke is young, impulsive, and eager.

3b) EP1-2: Anakin is young, impulsive, eager and whiney.
anakin didn't whine at all in episode 1, luke complained all thru ANH and ESB

4a) SW: The Force is all around us. It binds the Galaxy together.

4b) EP1: The Force is essentially a blood desease.
no where is it called a disease. the idea of midiclorians does not contradict anything told about the force in the OT. we have just learned some people have a greater ability to control the force, and now we know why.

5a) ESB: Han/Leia love story is superbly written, directed and plays out beautifully. (NOTE: George Lucas didn’t write this one)

5b) EP2: Anakin/Amidala love story is rushed, sloppy, and disjointed. And why does she love this whinny annoying *****. (NOTE: George Lucas wrote this one)
the ESB love story is just OK, nothing special. the AOTC love story is horrible, i agree. i would of preferred anakin and padme to be hiding a secret affair for a few years prior to the movie

6a) ROTJ: We thought Ewoks were bad.i never thought this. evil teddy bears? come on man! :p

6) EP1-2: Jar Jar Binks is the single most annoying creature created by CG. EVER. That yellow thing in Lost in Space wasn’t as annoying. And it seemed a good idea at first to make him the reason Palpatine becomes Emperor, but seriously, would anyone actually leave this moron in charge of a senate seat?
yes, just look at real life governments. i'd drop a few names, but that's forbidden here:)....but i could of done without the poop, fart and getting hit in the nads jokes.

7a) ROTJ: Epic sword fight. Darth Vader is dramatically defeated. not really. if you critically watch it, vader just kinda lays down and gets into position so luke can cut his hand off....plus the ANH duel sucked bad

7b) EP1: Epic sword fight. Obi-Wan flips over Darth Maul, levatates a saber and cuts him down while this agile enemy who’s been holding off two jedi, one he’s already defeated, JUST STANDS THERE.so he caught maul by suprise, big deal....it's still the best saber duel ever filmed

8a) SW: Young Luke Skywalker, who piloted T-16’s back home, destoys the Death Star using skill and the Force.

8b) EP1: Prepubescent Anakin Skywalker, who’s barely out of diapers, destroys the Droid Command Ship using the ancient art of dumb luck.he wasn't trying to destroy the ship, just the approaching battledroids

9a) SW: Luke pilots this cool looking Rebel X-Wing through Death Star trenches.

9b) EP1: Anakin pilots this piece of crap called a Pod Racer on a long, boring, drawn out race which sucked massive amounts of Bantha poo.speak for yourself. i wasn't bored and really enjoyed the pod race. it showed anakin's potential skill as a star fighter pilot, and made his scenes in the naboo star fighter believable.
............

it's apparent you hate the prequils, and that's OK, i guess. i have some problems with episode 2, mainly anakin's inmature whiney behavior, the horrible love story, the lame lightsaber duels, the overuse of CGI backgrounds, but overall, i'd say the prequils are about as good as the OT, with a few exceptions. :)

2-1B
10-26-2003, 03:00 PM
I wouldn't say that. ANH and ESB have traditionally been well recieved by non-StarWarsy types. ROTJ gets a little cartoony, but the first two are pretty solid stories with good acting (despite the odd claims to the contrary :confused: ) and excellent production values. No, they don't have "Oscar calibur" :rolleyes: actors in them (aside from Alec) and certain types of genres never get a fair shot against "serious" films, but I'd put ANH and ESB up against any "Oscar pick" any day.

Oh? :confused:
Funny you should mention the only Oscar calibur actor (Alec Guinness) because he was the actor from the OT most turned off by these films. That guy went to his grave practically disowning these films and I distinctly recall his description of them as (in a single word) banal. :rolleyes:

Hey, don't blame the messenger. I love these movies, too. But there's no denying that some fans see the classics and prequels through rose colored glasses. I like the classics but I think ANH and ESB fall against so many of the past Oscar picks. Braveheart, Schindler's List, Silence of the Lambs, Unforgiven, Dances With Wolves, Ghandi, The Godfather I and II, and Rocky are all past winners which come to mind. If I thought more about it, I know there are several Oscar "losers" which also put ANH and ESB to shame. :p

Star Wars are my favorite movies but they sure aren't the best. ;)

stillakid
10-26-2003, 03:10 PM
Oh? :confused:
Funny you should mention the only Oscar calibur actor (Alec Guinness) because he was the actor from the OT most turned off by these films. That guy went to his grave practically disowning these films and I distinctly recall his description of them as (in a single word) banal. :rolleyes:

Hey, don't blame the messenger. I love these movies, too. But there's no denying that some fans see the classics and prequels through rose colored glasses. I like the classics but I think ANH and ESB fall against so many of the past Oscar picks. Braveheart, Schindler's List, Silence of the Lambs, Unforgiven, Dances With Wolves, Ghandi, The Godfather I and II, and Rocky are all past winners which come to mind. If I thought more about it, I know there are several Oscar "losers" which also put ANH and ESB to shame. :p

Star Wars are my favorite movies but they sure aren't the best. ;)

I know I brought it up, but if we're comparing films like this, it is fundamentally an uneven playing field. Not one of your choices above fell into "sci fi" or "comedy*," just two of the genres traditionally given short shrift when it comes to being seriously considered as quality filmmaking. Absolutely, all the Star Wars films are essentially B-Movie fare, just like something like the Indiana Jones films are, but those are every bit as well made and entertaining (if not more so) than many of the "Oscar worthy" films out there. When it comes to comparing films, the concept is fundamentally unfair because aside from them all appearing on celluloid, we're really comparing apples and oranges.


* if I'm not mistaken, I vaguely remember hearing some talk recently about creating a special Oscar category for comedy because they are traditionally shut out of serious consideration against the "serious" films. I'll have to look into that again.

stillakid
10-26-2003, 03:12 PM
Hey, don't blame the messenger. I love these movies, too. But there's no denying that some fans see the classics and prequels through rose colored glasses.

Hmm, I've suggested such a thing a few times in the past and have been crucified for it. Go figure. ;)

2-1B
10-26-2003, 08:37 PM
Luke is very whiney in ANH and gets less whiney as the film progresses.

I agree with you there but I also believe that after the battle of Hoth in ESB, Luke reverts to mega-whiney mode when he lands on Dagobah.



Hmm, I've suggested such a thing a few times in the past and have been crucified for it. Go figure. ;)

Why do you think I posted that? :D

No, what you've suggested (more than) a few times in the past is that the classic films meet the criteria for quality filmmaking and given that fact, the prequels are fundamentally flawed and fail in comparison.

My sarcastic comment is made from the viewpoint that there are many (non-diehard Star Wars) movie going fans out there that do not even differentiate between classics and prequels. Some people remember the OT fondly from their youth and that's the extent of their appreciation. Some people found the OT to be goofy and predictable. Do I agree with them? Yes and no. The older I get and the less I watch the OT, I'm finding that I used to put too much faith into them as superior films. They are still among my favorites but there are many, many things I dislike about them (as with the prequels) so I refuse to hold up the OT as any kind of standard. :)



I know I brought it up, but if we're comparing films like this, it is fundamentally an uneven playing field. Not one of your choices above fell into "sci fi" or "comedy*," just two of the genres traditionally given short shrift when it comes to being seriously considered as quality filmmaking. Absolutely, all the Star Wars films are essentially B-Movie fare, just like something like the Indiana Jones films are, but those are every bit as well made and entertaining (if not more so) than many of the "Oscar worthy" films out there. When it comes to comparing films, the concept is fundamentally unfair because aside from them all appearing on celluloid, we're really comparing apples and oranges.


* if I'm not mistaken, I vaguely remember hearing some talk recently about creating a special Oscar category for comedy because they are traditionally shut out of serious consideration against the "serious" films. I'll have to look into that again.

Nope, quality filmmaking is quality filmmaking is quality filmmaking. :D
I don't care what genre it is. I personally could not care less that the stupid "Academy" picked those films I cited as "Best Picture" of their respective years. I am only speaking from my own opinions. Every one of those films I noted are better made pictures than ANH and ESB (and of course ROTJ, TPM, AOTC) in my opinion. Sci-Fi is one of my favorite genres but I don't think Star Wars is better than any of those other movies. Should "Annie Hall" have won over Star Wars? Of course not. :D
I'm not arguing that ANH and ESB aren't that great *because* the Oscars would not recognize them. I'm just saying that there are other movies out there which put the OT and the prequels to shame. I for one find much of the acting in the OT to be very overrated and downright bad in some parts. People like to point out Natalie Portman's poor acting in the prequels but I can only think of two parts of AOTC in which her acting bothered me. Some people aren't as bothered by Mark Hamill in ANH as I am.
Hey, I don't mind. :p

stillakid
10-27-2003, 01:06 AM
INope, quality filmmaking is quality filmmaking is quality filmmaking. :D


Well, yes, quality filmmaking is quality filmmaking. I agree, but to try to attempt a comparison between Animal House and The Deer Hunter is ludicrous. Both are excellent films for the same reasons (great writing and production quality applicable to the respective "point"), but placing them side by side to choose which is "better" doesn't work very well...at least not as far as I can tell.

So yes, while you might find fault within a Star Wars movie (acting, fx, whatever), it's possible to do that with virtually any film, no matter how good it appears to be. There are virtually no "perfect" films out there primarily because everyone perceives the same "factual" entity differently. How so? Take something like Evil Dead for instance. Somebody might say that they hate it because it is too "cheap looking." I'd come back and say that it is exactly that raw "look" which makes it work in the first place. The "Fact" is that it has a raw look. It is how we each choose to judge those things which determines our overall opinions.

When it comes to the Prequels, I can say definitely that there are problems (continuity wise) which I've pointed out many times before. For some people, they agree. Others choose not to. But that doesn't negate the fact that the problems exist. You see "bad acting" in the OT. What is "good acting" then? Is there a different threshold of acceptability for each of us? I was under the impression that "good acting" constituted an actor reading dialogue and doing things in such a way as to make the audience believe that he/she is actually the character in that environment and situation. For me, I saw no such "bad acting" in the OT which pulled me out of the story enough to start looking around at the scenery. On the other hand, I can point to a few moments in the Prequels which were so jarring (ie, Mace Windu in TPM) that I was suddenly aware that an actor was up on the screen. Apparently you (and others) didn't.

So my question is this: Is the absence of a thing make it true? In other words, if just one person out of a hundred notices a problem, does the problem really exist because only one person sees it? Or to put it the other way, if 99 people claim that something isn't true, but one person does see it, does that majority opinion negate that one person's observation? So hypothetically (because I'm not the only one to see this), if I'm the only one to say "Hey, Qui Gon has stolen Obi Wan's life in TPM!", just because 99 other fans declare that he hasn't, does that negate my observation? And how can it? I made it, therefore it exists, therefore there must be a problem. No? Philosophy class flashbacks. :eek:

2-1B
10-27-2003, 01:19 AM
There's your mistake. You see continuity errors and say that others choose not to see them.
Tycho just went through the "Ben finding Anakin" thing in a different thread and his review of the ROTJ scene is in no way a refusal to see a concrete error. :)

99 out of 100 people seem to think that Hayden Christensen did a terrible job as Anakin but I'm 1 out of 100 who thought he was wonderful. Does that negate my observation? :)

stillakid
10-27-2003, 01:29 AM
99 out of 100 people seem to think that Hayden Christensen did a terrible job as Anakin but I'm 1 out of 100 who thought he was wonderful. Does that negate my observation? :)

Ahh, touche! :)

What I forgot to mention specific to your question was the element of the script. Was it really "bad acting" that those 99 people saw or was it "good acting" of a "bad script"?

I'll join you and say that Hayden did an admirable job...with what he had to work with, but unfortunately the words next to his character name on the page didn't give him much to work with. Add in a lackluster Director who is more interested in pointing out what is going to happen on the greenscreen and you've got a recipe for many to say that Hayden is a bad actor. Even the best of actors would have had trouble with this dog of a screenplay.

So no, your observation isn't negated, but only because those other 99 people aren't interested in taking the time to find the distinction between the actor and his material. The same goes for any other group of elements that gel to create a movie. Most people will just come out of a flick and say "That was great!" or "That sucked!" and leave it at that. When pressed, most people don't or can't make the distinctions between the directing and the production design, or the camera operating and the lighting. They'll just say that it "looked good or bad".

Beast
10-27-2003, 01:35 AM
I think the numbers that like and dislike are probably pretty even. But you know what they say. The people that dislike something are always the loudest voice. Especially when anyone that says that they like the prequels gets bashed as ignoring the flaws and being a Lucas lover. We know there are flaws, but the OT had them also. Just as much as the PT. Doesn't mean we can't enjoy the movies for what they are. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
10-27-2003, 02:01 AM
Ahh, touche! :)

What I forgot to mention specific to your question was the element of the script. Was it really "bad acting" that those 99 people saw or was it "good acting" of a "bad script"?

I'll join you and say that Hayden did an admirable job...with what he had to work with, but unfortunately the words next to his character name on the page didn't give him much to work with. Add in a lackluster Director who is more interested in pointing out what is going to happen on the greenscreen and you've got a recipe for many to say that Hayden is a bad actor. Even the best of actors would have had trouble with this dog of a screenplay.

So no, your observation isn't negated, but only because those other 99 people aren't interested in taking the time to find the distinction between the actor and his material. The same goes for any other group of elements that gel to create a movie. Most people will just come out of a flick and say "That was great!" or "That sucked!" and leave it at that. When pressed, most people don't or can't make the distinctions between the directing and the production design, or the camera operating and the lighting. They'll just say that it "looked good or bad".

That's a very good distinction between acting and the material he had to work with. I respect your view of the situation. :)
I actually thought of this after I posted and I should have been more detailed because I would extend my opinion of Anakin to not only include Hayden's performance but also the way the character is written. For example, you and I have debated before about Anakin's actions and his motivations for them. We disagree on much of that and I won't re-argue it here but it's admirable of you to separate what you liked and disliked about the actor from the material being used. :)

Still, I'm probably 1 out of 100 that liked Anakin on the whole in AOTC despite what my Gungan friend may have said up there. :D

stillakid
10-27-2003, 10:36 AM
I think the numbers that like and dislike are probably pretty even. But you know what they say. The people that dislike something are always the loudest voice. Especially when anyone that says that they like the prequels gets bashed as ignoring the flaws and being a Lucas lover. We know there are flaws, but the OT had them also. Just as much as the PT. Doesn't mean we can't enjoy the movies for what they are. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks


Perhaps, but the "flaws" are different. To date, I have yet to see but one "flaw" brought up regarding the OT which could be a dealbreaker. That was the sequence in Empire when the Falcon somehow limps to Bespin without hyperdrive. How did that happen? is a legitimate question and the only way to justify it is a significant dose of rationalization. Despite that, that incongrueity doesn't affect the continuity of the overall story in any meaningful way.

On the other hand, the story problems in the Prequels abound. Yes, again with significant amounts of rationalization, most can be "ignored" so that one can enjoy it "for what it is," but where the ESB problem was essentially a decision of convenience for the writer (to keep the story moving along), the problems in the Prequels don't have to be there. The ESB problem with the hyperdrive was a corner that Kasdan/Lucas wrote themselves into, but with little choice. Things like Qui Gon and Midichlorians and revealing Vader's identity are elements that absolutely don't have to be in the saga to tell the story.

Beast
10-27-2003, 12:30 PM
Perhaps, but the "flaws" are different. To date, I have yet to see but one "flaw" brought up regarding the OT which could be a dealbreaker. <snip> On the other hand, the story problems in the Prequels abound.
Of course, you're forgetting the major aspect of the above, especially in relation to these couple of sentances. That it's your opinion. Not a fact. While you may consider the story problems in the Prequels to abound, not everyone feels that way. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
10-27-2003, 12:53 PM
Of course, you're forgetting the major aspect of the above, especially in relation to these couple of sentances. That it's your opinion. Not a fact. While you may consider the story problems in the Prequels to abound, not everyone feels that way. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks


It is a FACT that Obi Wan stated that Yoda taught him and there is more than one instance of dialogue throughout the OT which proves it.

It is a FACT that Obi Wan stated specifically that he was the one to find Anakin, the one to be surprised at how strongly the Force was with him, and the one to decide to train him as a Jedi. Not only is that statement said specifically in the OT, there are also other comments scattered throughout which support the same idea. In addition, the Prequels don't support Old Ben's notion that he was amazed at how strongly the Force was with Anakin nor do the Prequels support Old Ben's statement that he took it upon himself to train him as a Jedi because he thought he "could train him just as well as Yoda." No, young Obi Wan only reluctantly took Anakin on because of some promise he made to his own teacher, Qui Gon. Not only that, but Obi Wan's reluctance continues into AOTC when he specifically states his uncertainty over Anakin's abilities to Yoda. So just about everything Old Ben establishes as the past is circumvented by a new "reimagining" of events in the Prequels.

That is a FACT.

One can find rationalizations to ease the pain of Lucas's alterations, but it does not erase the existence of the necessity to do so.

2-1B
10-27-2003, 01:00 PM
It is a FACT that Obi-Wan was amazed at Ani's midichlorian count.

It is a FACT that Obi-Wan decided to take it upon himself to train Anakin without the permission of the Council (and of course without Yoda's involvement).

It is a FACT that Obi-Wan NEVER said he was the one to find Anakin, just that "when I first knew him" ;)
Two different things.
What Ben says in the movie is rather vague but what stillakid insists is that Ben meant something that was not specifically said.

Had Ben literally said that he found Anakin, then yes there would be a contradiction. But he didn't. He said a bunch of vague crap which can be interpreted one way but does not forbid Lucas from reimagining it.

Get over it. :)

Beast
10-27-2003, 01:20 PM
I'm so sick of you bringing up the damn 'Yoda trained Obi-Wan' argument. You've endlessly beat that damn argument into the ground. Let's go through this again. Nowhere does Obi-Wan specifically state in the OT that Yoda was the only Jedi to instruct him. Qui-Gon's existance does not negates Obi-Wan's words about 'The Jedi Master that Instructed Me'. And you continuously ignore the fact that Yoda did train Obi-Wan, as he trains all Jedi younglings, until they are taken by Jedi for personal one-on-one instruction. Obi-Wan needed to direct Luke to a Jedi Master that could train him. He certainly wasn't going to ramble off about someone that couldn't help Luke, cause the guy was dead.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

billfremore
10-27-2003, 01:50 PM
Thank you JJB for that comment. I'm getting tired of the semantics arguments too.

I liked the PT and OT despite all their flaws. Nobody can tell me I'm wrong, it's my opinion. This is a matter of preference and interpretation, not fact.

Now whether you think I'm viewing the movies through "rose-coloured glasses" is someone else's opinion. I can't change that and I don't want to.

I liked them and nothing anybody says is going to change my mind nor am I going to change theirs.

stillakid
10-28-2003, 11:59 AM
And you continuously ignore the fact that Yoda did train Obi-Wan, as he trains all Jedi younglings, until they are taken by Jedi for personal one-on-one instruction.

No, I'm not ignoring it. It isn't relevant because no where in the saga does it state that Yoda trains all younglings. Old Ben stated that Yoda was the Jedi Master who instructed him. Period. How difficult is that to accept? Very, apparently. :)

But that isn't the end all of it. Later on, in ROTJ, there is a moment of tension when Yoda doesn't want to train Luke because he was too "reckless." Spirit Ben says, "So was I, if you'll remember." Given your own idea that Yoda only trains younglings, the suggestion then is that Obi Wan was "reckless" as a 6 year old. Okay, maybe, but what 6 year old boy isn't? In any case, this conversation was in the context of comparing Luke to Anakin:

YODA: Hmmm. Much anger in him, like his father.

BEN'S VOICE: Was I any different when you taught me?


The inference, especially in light of the training information in the Prequels, is that Ben either was taught entirely by Yoda until he was a fully trained Jedi himself, or that Ben was partially taught by Yoda specifically in his teen years just as Anakin was. Either way, he must have been taught by Yoda after being a youngling which still doesn't make sense with the continuity of the OT.

The proof continues into ROTJ. This is an excerpt from the original script which outlines Lucas's/Kasdan's intentions...

BEN
When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot. But I was amazed how
strongly the Force was with him. I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I
thought that I could instruct him just as
well as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has
had terrible consequences for the galaxy.


Breaking this statement down, we run into a problem right away. "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot..." Stop. In TPM, when Obi Wan first knew Anakin, he know nothing of the boy. While he was stuck on the Queen's ship twiddling his thumbs, it was Qui Gon who witnessed Anakin's piloting prowess, not Obi Wan.

"But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him..." Stop. No he wasn't. All he saw was a Midichlorian count which only, supposedly, suggests that someone might have the potential to someday be a Force user, but at no time within TPM itself, does Obi Wan ever witness Anakin using the Force. At least not in any way that would justify this statement.

"I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi..." No, he didn't really. Qui Gon decided to do that against the wishes of the Council. Not only that, but Obi Wan agreed with the Council. Moreso, Obi Wan rarely gave Anakin much thought throughout the entire film except when questioning the decision to train Anakin. This doesn't even come close to conforming with the statement above. Yes, he does eventually train him, but only at the bequest of a dying man, and even still in AOTC, he has obvious reservations about Anakin and his skill:
EXT. CORUSCANT, LANDING PLATFORM - LATE AFTERNOON
Obi-Wan's Starfighter is ready for takeoff. OBI-WAN and MACE WINDU stand beside it.

MACE WINDU
Be wary, this disturbance in the
Force is growing stronger.

OBI-WAN
I am concerned for my Padawan. He
is not ready to be on his own.

YODA
The Council is confident in this decision,
Obi-Wan.

MACE
He has exceptional skills. The
Council is confident in its
decision, Obi-Wan. If the
prophecy is true, he weill be the
one to bring balance to the Force.

OBI-WAN
But he still has much to learn.
And his abilities have made him...
well... arrogant. I realise now
what you and Master Yoda knew from
the beginning... the boy was too
old to start the training and...

OBI-WAN hesitates.

MACE WINDU
There's something else?

OBI-WAN
Master, he should not have been
given this assignment. I'm afraid
Anakin won't be able to protect
the Senator.


This chain of events in the Prequel's isn't even close to the history as described in the OT.

"I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda..." Really? Perhaps that was an underlying motivator, but aside from Obi mentioning Yoda's Midi count in TPM, we never see any indication that he has any kind of admiration for the gnome in the Prequels. This isn't to say it isn't a true statement, but there was nothing obvious within TPM itself (prior to Obi Wan wanting to train Anakin) which would support this contention.

"My pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy..." Well, first I don't recall if this line made it to screen. Even if it didn't, the rest of his statement clearly says it anyway. In the OT, Obi Wan's motivation to train Anakin was pride and arrogance. He reportedly found this young kid on his own, recognized his potential, and made the choice on his own to train him believing that he could do it successfully. His failure had ramifications that reached far and wide. However, the Prequels are telling a very different tale. One of Obi Wan reluctantly agreeing to train this kid who was thrust upon him and despite repeated warnings to the Council to reign the kid in, loses the kid to the Darkside. So not only did Obi Wan not really want to do this (TPM), he is actively trying to stop it before Anakin goes too far (AOTC).

This isn't me interpreting things the way I desired them to be...these are the events as proven out by the films themselves. I'll invite you to look at the same exact scenes and dialogue and do your own breakdown which illustrates your own point of view. :)

Beast
10-28-2003, 12:44 PM
No, I'm not ignoring it. It isn't relevant because no where in the saga does it state that Yoda trains all younglings. Old Ben stated that Yoda was the Jedi Master who instructed him. Period. How difficult is that to accept? Very, apparently. :)
Yes. You clearly are ignoring it. Nowhere in the OT is it stated that Yoda was Obi-Wan's only teacher either. So you can't argue one aspect without agreeing to the other. Where as we see in E2, that Yoda is training the younglings. Hell, he didn't even tell Luke the whole truth about his father until he was forced to. Why would he ramble off on some person that's been dead 32+ years, who was incapable of helping.

But that isn't the end all of it. Later on, in ROTJ, there is a moment of tension when Yoda doesn't want to train Luke because he was too "reckless." Spirit Ben says, "So was I, if you'll remember." Given your own idea that Yoda only trains younglings, the suggestion then is that Obi Wan was "reckless" as a 6 year old. Okay, maybe, but what 6 year old boy isn't? In any case, this conversation was in the context of comparing Luke to Anakin:

YODA: Hmmm. Much anger in him, like his father.

BEN'S VOICE: Was I any different when you taught me?

I'm sure Obi-Wan was probably quite recklass, as a child. He's clearly not one in TPM, due to the training under Yoda as a padawan. Luke is whiny, anxious, angry. It's because he's not undergone any of the training that mentally prepares a padawan for their training. So yes, I can see where a 6 year old and Luke in ANH/ESB could be similar.

The inference, especially in light of the training information in the Prequels, is that Ben either was taught entirely by Yoda until he was a fully trained Jedi himself, or that Ben was partially taught by Yoda specifically in his teen years just as Anakin was. Either way, he must have been taught by Yoda after being a youngling which still doesn't make sense with the continuity of the OT.
He was taught up until a point he was taken by a Jedi Master for personal one-on-one training. So yes, Yoda taught him the important lessons. But in a classroom type of environment. Not as much personal attention and interaction as what a Padawan/Master relationship becomes. There is no inference on anything there. Or do you now suggest that anyone younger then a teen cannot have anger?

The proof continues into ROTJ. This is an excerpt from the original script which outlines Lucas's/Kasdan's intentions...

BEN
When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot. But I was amazed how
strongly the Force was with him. I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I
thought that I could instruct him just as
well as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has
had terrible consequences for the galaxy.


Breaking this statement down, we run into a problem right away. "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot..." Stop. In TPM, when Obi Wan first knew Anakin, he know nothing of the boy. While he was stuck on the Queen's ship twiddling his thumbs, it was Qui Gon who witnessed Anakin's piloting prowess, not Obi Wan.
Sorry, as you yourself are so fond of stating the above wasn't onscreen info. It's not canon, just as Owen being Ben's brother isn't. And even if it was, it changes nothing based on the evidence presented in the prequels. But lets beat a dead horse somemore, just to please you. When Obi-Wan first knew him, he was already a great pilot. Which he was, or did you close your eyes during the entire pod race scene. The boy is a great pilot before Obi-Wan first meets him. He never says he witnesses it for himself. But he's heard about him. It would be the same as if Luke mentioned that his father was a great pilot. Does he need to witness that ability to make a generalized statement.

"But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him..." Stop. No he wasn't. All he saw was a Midichlorian count which only, supposedly, suggests that someone might have the potential to someday be a Force user, but at no time within TPM itself, does Obi Wan ever witness Anakin using the Force. At least not in any way that would justify this statement.
I don't know, he was pretty damn amazed if you ask me. "Even Master Yoda doesn't have a midiclorian count that high." As well as his other comments he makes about the midiclorian count. Plus he did get to know Anakin pretty well right after he took the boy under his wing. You know, the 10 years that don't happen on screen. Or did you think there was a magical time leap, and nothing of Anakin and Obi-Wan getting to know each other, and Obi-Wan seeing the boy's abilities in person happened. Naive, arn't we? :)

"I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi..." No, he didn't really. Qui Gon decided to do that against the wishes of the Council. Not only that, but Obi Wan agreed with the Council. Moreso, Obi Wan rarely gave Anakin much thought throughout the entire film except when questioning the decision to train Anakin. This doesn't even come close to conforming with the statement above. Yes, he does eventually train him, but only at the bequest of a dying man, and even still in AOTC, he has obvious reservations about Anakin and his skill: <snip> This chain of events in the Prequel's isn't even close to the history as described in the OT.
He did take it upon himself to train him as a jedi. He could have let someone that is more capable train the boy. But he felt that he needed to honor the request of his master. Let's call that 'Mistake #1'. So he took the 'burden' of training him as a jedi upon himself. Instead of deferring to the councils wishes that he not be trained because he was to old. So again, you are arguing semantics of a statement. And nothing in the prequels sofar contradict anything in the OT. Unless your playing the nitpick/semantics game.

"I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda..." Really? Perhaps that was an underlying motivator, but aside from Obi mentioning Yoda's Midi count in TPM, we never see any indication that he has any kind of admiration for the gnome in the Prequels. This isn't to say it isn't a true statement, but there was nothing obvious within TPM itself (prior to Obi Wan wanting to train Anakin) which would support this contention.
Why wouldn't he feel that way. He just defeated a Sith Lord, and was feeling cocky about his abilities. Why wouldn't he feel that he could do anything just as well as Yoda. After all, he did something that hardly no other Jedi currently alive in the order had done. How is what he says above showing any indication that he has any admiration for Anakin. He's commenting on his ability to train Anakin. Not whether or not he cares for him.

"My pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy..." Well, first I don't recall if this line made it to screen. Even if it didn't, the rest of his statement clearly says it anyway. In the OT, Obi Wan's motivation to train Anakin was pride and arrogance. He reportedly found this young kid on his own, recognized his potential, and made the choice on his own to train him believing that he could do it successfully. His failure had ramifications that reached far and wide. However, the Prequels are telling a very different tale. One of Obi Wan reluctantly agreeing to train this kid who was thrust upon him and despite repeated warnings to the Council to reign the kid in, loses the kid to the Darkside. So not only did Obi Wan not really want to do this (TPM), he is actively trying to stop it before Anakin goes too far (AOTC).
Sorry, not canon info. But even if it was, it clearly is true. His pride that he could do just as good a job as Yoda, was the downfall for galaxy. How does anything Obi-Wan says in the OT, point to the fact that he found Anakin on his own. Sorry, all he says is that 'When I first knew him, he was already a great pilot'. Sorry Stilla, you're really frickin' stretching on this one. Obi-Wan never says he's the one that found, and he never says he recognized his potential. Just that he was amazed at how strong the force was with him. Which he was, by the proof of the Midiclorian count. And he did make the choice to train him, believing in arrogance and pride that he could do it successfully. He didn't have to agree to Qui-Gon's final wishes. But he did. Again, nothing negated by the Prequels, unless your a nitpicker who loves to debate semantics.

This isn't me interpreting things the way I desired them to be...these are the events as proven out by the films themselves. I'll invite you to look at the same exact scenes and dialogue and do your own breakdown which illustrates your own point of view. :)
Yes, it is you interpreting things. Or did someone else type all this up for you. Sorry Stillakid, we just go round and round on the same tired arguments and you always bring up the same semantic laden 'proof' of how you know so much better then everyone else. Nothing in the prequels has ever negated anything presented in the OT, unless you're looking way to hard, and stretching things to fit your idea of 'The Truth'. And this is why so few people actually bother to discuss the movies with you anymore. Because you act all high and mighty about your opinion, and I'd be amazed if you really believe half of what you're saying. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
10-28-2003, 03:58 PM
Yes. You clearly are ignoring it.
No, I'm not and I clearly explained why...again. :)


Nowhere in the OT is it stated that Yoda was Obi-Wan's only teacher either.
Yes, it does. "You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me."

the (th before a vowel; th before a consonant)
def.art.

Used before singular or plural nouns and noun phrases that denote particular, specified persons or things: the baby; the dress I wore.
Used before a noun, and generally stressed, to emphasize one of a group or type as the most outstanding or prominent.



So you can't argue one aspect without agreeing to the other. Where as we see in E2, that Yoda is training the younglings. Hell, he didn't even tell Luke the whole truth about his father until he was forced to. Why would he ramble off on some person that's been dead 32+ years, who was incapable of helping.
Exactly, why does Qui Gon exist at all? Spirit Ben never mentioned him and stated that he was taught by Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed him.

Telling Luke the entire truth about his father and mentioning Qui Gon are two entirely different things. Holding back information on Anakin goes to the heart of Luke's self-discovery, arguably one of the backbones of the entire saga. Revealing information about Qui Gon admittedly is a non-issue, however that isn't an excuse to not mention it when he tells Luke who trained him. He states specifically that Yoda did, not anyone else.


I'm sure Obi-Wan was probably quite recklass, as a child. He's clearly not one in TPM, due to the training under Yoda as a padawan. Luke is whiny, anxious, angry. It's because he's not undergone any of the training that mentally prepares a padawan for their training. So yes, I can see where a 6 year old and Luke in ANH/ESB could be similar.

He was taught up until a point he was taken by a Jedi Master for personal one-on-one training. So yes, Yoda taught him the important lessons. But in a classroom type of environment. Not as much personal attention and interaction as what a Padawan/Master relationship becomes. There is no inference on anything there. Or do you now suggest that anyone younger then a teen cannot have anger?
Of course not, but again, that conversation in Yoda's hut when listened to in context with Obi's previous statement about Yoda being the Master implies that Obi's age is irrelevant...primarily because Yoda was his only teacher.

It's clear that you don't look at the whole of the argument. Each scene and statement doesn't exist on it's own. When you look at everything that the characters have said and done it is clear that what I am suggesting is true.


Sorry, as you yourself are so fond of stating the above wasn't onscreen info. It's not canon, just as Owen being Ben's brother isn't. And even if it was, it changes nothing based on the evidence presented in the prequels. But lets beat a dead horse somemore, just to please you. When Obi-Wan first knew him, he was already a great pilot. Which he was, or did you close your eyes during the entire pod race scene. The boy is a great pilot before Obi-Wan first meets him. He never says he witnesses it for himself. But he's heard about him. It would be the same as if Luke mentioned that his father was a great pilot. Does he need to witness that ability to make a generalized statement.
You mean that Obi Wan didn't say: BEN
When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot. But I was amazed how
strongly the Force was with him. I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I
thought that I could instruct him just as
well as Yoda. I was wrong.

Maybe you need to go look at these films again. In any case, yes, Anakin was a great pilot, but Old Ben stating that in the OT suggests to the point of fact that he did witness it, otherwise, why bring it up? He could have just as easily told Luke then that "Anakin could really fix things up good!" or "Anakin said 'Yippee!' just like I remember you doing as a youngin' " Again, you're choosing to ignore the forest and are concentrating too heavily on the trees.




I don't know, he was pretty damn amazed if you ask me. "Even Master Yoda doesn't have a midiclorian count that high." As well as his other comments he makes about the midiclorian count. Plus he did get to know Anakin pretty well right after he took the boy under his wing. You know, the 10 years that don't happen on screen. Or did you think there was a magical time leap, and nothing of Anakin and Obi-Wan getting to know each other, and Obi-Wan seeing the boy's abilities in person happened. Naive, arn't we? :)
The pot calling the kettle black. :) No, he wasn't "amazed at how strongly the Force was with him." Don't you actually read what other people write? It would go a long way to explaining why you have such a hard time understanding the saga and the problems within the Prequels. Pay attention a little bit more and you'll get it. Instead of rehashing what I've already said, I'll just redirect you back to my post above.

Old Ben's statement is a linear tale. Allow me to explain since you obviously missed it.

First he says: When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot. What that means is that this was the first thing that he noticed prior to or just as he met him.

Then he says: But I was amazed how
strongly the Force was with him. Ah, this says that Obi was impressed with Anakin's piloting skills (so he obviously saw Anakin piloting something), but was even more impressed with the way Anakin could handle the Force in some way (which says that Obi actually witnessed Obi doing something with the Force).

Then he says: I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi. This decision occurs after those first two linear events which would have naturally led him to wanting to do this. Cause and effect. Easy, right? With me so far?

So no, your argument that all this Force-viewing and piloting-witnessing went on sometime after the credits rolled on TPM holds no water, because the decision to train him came after Obi witnessed these things and was impressed by the kid. Nothing of the sort happened in TPM therefore the Prequel continuity is not in line with the established OT story. How much more clear can that get? :confused:



He did take it upon himself to train him as a jedi. He could have let someone that is more capable train the boy. But he felt that he needed to honor the request of his master.
Uh, no. Not sure where you came up with that summation, but the option to ship him off to another teacher wasn't even in the cards. The council had no desire whatsoever to teach the boy and as we clearly see in AOTC, Obi's own reservations never go away.



Let's call that 'Mistake #1'. So he took the 'burden' of training him as a jedi upon himself. Instead of deferring to the councils wishes that he not be trained because he was to old. So again, you are arguing semantics of a statement. And nothing in the prequels sofar contradict anything in the OT. Unless your playing the nitpick/semantics game.
Not really, unless you mean to say that you see my point and can't successfully argue it away. :)


Why wouldn't he feel that way. He just defeated a Sith Lord, and was feeling cocky about his abilities. Why wouldn't he feel that he could do anything just as well as Yoda. After all, he did something that hardly no other Jedi currently alive in the order had done.
Wow, that's funny. :) "He did something that hardly no other Jedi currently alive in the order had done." Did you really type that? Seriously, how many other Jedi had the opportunity to take on Darth Maul? Really. Qui Gon got run through because he was obviously older and slower and only had one blade vs. Maul's two. Obi Wan clearly showed visible signs of anger and aggression (the dark side?) but still got his butt kicked down into a hole. The only reason he "won" was because Maul inexplicably stands there like a loon while Obi does a triple gainer out of the hole, takes the second to ignite the saber which as to take a second or so to fly through the air, and then stands there without so much of a flicker so that Obi can slice him in half. Yeah, he won alright. :rolleyes:


How is what he says above showing any indication that he has any admiration for Anakin. He's commenting on his ability to train Anakin. Not whether or not he cares for him.
Right. Agreed, and like I said, before This isn't to say it isn't a true statement, but there was nothing obvious within TPM itself (prior to Obi Wan wanting to train Anakin) which would support this contention.



Sorry, not canon info. But even if it was, it clearly is true. His pride that he could do just as good a job as Yoda, was the downfall for galaxy. How does anything Obi-Wan says in the OT, point to the fact that he found Anakin on his own. Sorry, all he says is that 'When I first knew him, he was already a great pilot'. Sorry Stilla, you're really frickin' stretching on this one. Obi-Wan never says he's the one that found, and he never says he recognized his potential. Just that he was amazed at how strong the force was with him. Which he was, by the proof of the Midiclorian count. And he did make the choice to train him, believing in arrogance and pride that he could do it successfully. He didn't have to agree to Qui-Gon's final wishes. But he did. Again, nothing negated by the Prequels, unless your a nitpicker who loves to debate semantics.
Well, I can see when the "opposition" has to resort to name calling that no good arguments are left to lean on, so I'll not even bother too much here. Suffice it to say that there are definitively spoken "facts" and there is something called subtlety and "reading between the lines." If you take EVERYTHING Obi Wan said throughout the OT you can ascertain exactly what I'm arguing. YOU are nitpicking the details while I am seeing the whole. Yes, you need to look at the details for they make up the whole, yet they do not exist in a vaccuum on their own. You must look at both simulataneously to see the truth.


Yes, it is you interpreting things. Or did someone else type all this up for you. Sorry Stillakid, we just go round and round on the same tired arguments and you always bring up the same semantic laden 'proof' of how you know so much better then everyone else. Nothing in the prequels has ever negated anything presented in the OT, unless you're looking way to hard, and stretching things to fit your idea of 'The Truth'. And this is why so few people actually bother to discuss the movies with you anymore. Because you act all high and mighty about your opinion, and I'd be amazed if you really believe half of what you're saying. :)

No, it's not me interpreting things, it's you rationalizing things away. :) My "idea of the TRUTH" is to simply look at what George (and company) wrote and evaluate it for what it is, not what I want it to be. If there's a problem, I'll call 'em on it. If they do something great, I'll praise them for it. But I won't just play "fanboy" and love it all just because it says Star Wars on it. But don't get me wrong, go ahead and fill in the gaps if that's what you enjoy doing. I have absolutely no problem with that. As I mentioned, I'm guilty of doing that myself with other films. The difference here is that I'm not so married to this "hobby" that I refuse to see cracks in the armor. It's okay to admit that they exist and still enjoy the other parts. Isn't it?

And I'm proud to say that I really do believe everything I'm saying. Aside from the pleasure of getting you up in a dander, why else bother? :)

billfremore
10-28-2003, 04:18 PM
Oh. My. God.

Can you two just agree to disagree and end this already. :)

Sheesh.

angellus
10-28-2003, 04:37 PM
The problem with the Midichlorians is that it turns the Force from something mystical into something that can scientifically explained, and I'm sorry but that plain sucks. That's like taking a sample of Derek Jeter's blood and using it to analyze why he's a better baseball player than your average Joe. Or measuring somebody's ability to sing or paint or write poetry based on their sperm count. These are innate abilities that science cannot explain and the Force should be so as well. Why can't it simply be that some people are attuned to the Force and some people aren't? What if Anakin gives someone a blood transfusion? Does that person then become "The Chosen One"? I better take that back before Lucas takes the idea and runs with it. He's done worse...

stillakid
10-30-2003, 09:28 AM
Oh. My. God.

Can you two just agree to disagree and end this already. :)

Sheesh.


I've done that. :) I've simply stated my own thoughts but others wish to ask me further questions about them. Then they disagree so I attempt to elaborate and defend, yet I've repeatedly stated that I don't care how others choose to interpret that which they enjoy. :)

Jayspawn
10-30-2003, 09:59 AM
There seems to be a whole lot of people here who HATE the New and Old Trilogys. So why are you here? You people wine more than Luke and Captain Panaka put together. Now theres a few things that really bother me like Greedo shooting first, Cartoon Jabba and the Pod Race sequence that was too long. But other than that NOTHING really bothers me. I love watching all the Star Wars films. I love loving it.

All those people that complained about JarJar in Episode I and R2 & 3PO blah, blah, blah. I think they're fine. People who do are black and white, fullscreen thinking fools who see little things for more than they are. I saw absolutly nothing wrong with Jake or Hayden's acting in the New Trilogy, and that all the right roles went to the right people. I've not a problem with any of the lightsaber duels either -they're fine.

Ramy
10-30-2003, 10:07 AM
You know I don't think a bunch of guys in suits should be allowed to vote for the movies that receive an Oscar. Let the people decide, just by sure numbers of people that go to see the movies or buy them on video. Those should be considered the best movies of the year. If they did that the Star Wars movies would have won in all but one year that they were out, because of a little movie called Spiderman.

stillakid
10-30-2003, 11:12 AM
You know I don't think a bunch of guys in suits should be allowed to vote for the movies that receive an Oscar. Let the people decide, just by sure numbers of people that go to see the movies or buy them on video. Those should be considered the best movies of the year. If they did that the Star Wars movies would have won in all but one year that they were out, because of a little movie called Spiderman.


It isn't a bunch of people in suits. The 5,607 (currently) members of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences come from all sectors of the industry, some above the line, many below. (Presumably) it is an award given out by one's peers to recognize outstanding achievement in any given category. It is not meant to be a simplistic popularity contest. The "best" movies of the year are not always those in which the greatest number of people paid for a ticket to go see on opening weekend. Frequently, that is more a function of successful marketing than anything else.

stillakid
10-30-2003, 11:24 AM
There seems to be a whole lot of people here who HATE the New and Old Trilogys. So why are you here? .


I've noticed a lot of people who dislike or hate the new trilogies, but have only noticed a smattering of slightly negative comments concerning the OT. :confused:

If someone hated the OT then hated the PT, then you're right, what would be the point. But to be "disappointed" in something implies that at some previous date, there was something about "it" that was liked. This could go both ways. A new kid whose first foray into the Star Wars saga was the Prequel films could wind up hating the OT for some reason and still feel compelled to integrate it into a hobby.

Ramy
10-30-2003, 11:26 AM
It isn't a bunch of people in suits. The 5,607 (currently) members of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences come from all sectors of the industry, some above the line, many below. (Presumably) it is an award given out by one's peers to recognize outstanding achievement in any given category. It is not meant to be a simplistic popularity contest. The "best" movies of the year are not always those in which the greatest number of people paid for a ticket to go see on opening weekend. Frequently, that is more a function of successful marketing than anything else.


Well isn't that how everything else is done in the US. President, Congress, etc. The best person for the job isn't always chosen, it's a popularity contest. Heck the best person for the job doesn't even run.

stillakid
10-30-2003, 11:32 AM
Well isn't that how everything else is done in the US. President, Congress, etc. The best person for the job isn't always chosen, it's a popularity contest. Heck the best person for the job doesn't even run.


Absolutely correct! Guys like Schwarzeneggar and Reagan were well aware of this tactic and used it successfully. People are gullible and apathetic when it comes to taking the time to "research" the best options for whatever the vote happens to be. That's why ad execs get paid so much money.

JON9000
10-31-2003, 03:27 PM
I like the OT more than the prequels. I've stayed out of the conversation for the most part, but I think the prequels have some problems, and the biggest one is just intrinsic in it being a prequel!

1. We already know how it turns out! Sort of puts a damper on the drama, huh? We know so many things have to happen in order to set up the OT, it really only becomes a question of details in getting it done.

2. Revisionism- there are certain tenants of the Star Wars universe we have come to know and love. One of the things I liked about ep IV was the idea that anyone could pick up a lightsaber, trust his feelings, and be Luke. Although that idea was corrupted somewhat by Empire and Jedi, it has been wiped out by the prequels. Now you have to have a particularly high count of midichlorians- you have to be a genetic superman. I cannot put my finger on it , but midis sorta bug me.

3. Nostalgia- I like the OT because I was little when it came out. I grew up with it, and it is a fact of life that most of us prefer the endeavors of our childhood to the modern equivalents.

So there you have it. I do not really sweat the small inconsistencies, if they are inconsistent. Personally, I think Obi-wan was a youngling training with Yoda at some point. Overall, I am satisfied with the prequels, especially AOTC. I realize they will never capture my imagination like the OT did, but I have come to the conclusion that it is more of a function of age than anything else.