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View Full Version : I don't think Anikin was ever on the lightside.



scruffziller
10-26-2003, 07:53 AM
From the beggining of when we meet him all thru to AOTC Anikin has never really shown any indication of being light side Jedi worthy. He was on the darkside before Qui Gonn and friends landed on Tatooine. It has been written before that "Darth Vader became the little boy he was so long ago in the final moments of ROTJ." Hogwash, the way he was there at the end, he had never been before.

Kidhuman
10-26-2003, 09:09 AM
I might have to disagree. I think he was as a little boy. But when Qui-Gon died, it appeared to do something to him. He was taken away from the only other person who truly liked him(Padme). He probably felt like a slave again with Obi training him.

When he finally saw Padme again, his fantasy was shot down. She kind of rejected him off the bat, but changed her tune halfway through the movie. Then his mom up and dies on her. He felt like he failed in his dream to free all slaves.

He then failed on his quest to free Obi -Wan from Geonosis. He feels like he can never do right. Anakin probably screws up somewhere during the Clone Wars and pushes him furhter to the dark-side.

Oh yeah, and he probably thought the council had no faith in him to begin with, so he was up against the wall from the get-go.

JediTricks
10-26-2003, 07:48 PM
Yoda says in Ep 1 that Ani has a lot of fear within him and Mace says he's full of anger, these are 2 major paths to the dark side. If the leaders of the Jedi Council both think he's got all that within him, I think it's safe to say that the dark side was dominating his destiny even in Ep 1. However, that doesn't mean Ani doesn't want to do good, to cling to the good side of the Force, merely that he is not of the mindset to succeed there at this junction. I suppose when he defeats the Emperor in ROTJ, that may be the point where he finally casts out all fear and anger -- especially since he knows right then and there that his life only has a few minutes ahead.

2-1B
10-26-2003, 09:27 PM
I don't remember Mace saying Ani was full of anger, just that he was too old. I'll have to watch it again . . .

"I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this."
I think he meant well and always wanted to do well as a youngster.
"Mom, you said the biggest problem in the universe is nobody helps each other."

Darth Jax
10-27-2003, 09:00 PM
whatever happened to 'once you start down that path forever will it dominate your destiny.' according to yoda vader was a sith and would always remain one, it is the sith's way to usurp control from your master though. killing palpatine doesn't cleanse his slate.

yoda tells ben in ESB that luke is full of anger, like his father - yet reluctantly agrees to train him anyway. later when luke claims not to be afraid yoda tells him 'you will be, you will be.'

luke and his father, anakin, are much alike. i believe the difference is that luke makes the effort to stick to the path, while anakin lets his anger and fear feed his control of the force.

JediTricks
10-27-2003, 09:30 PM
Caesar, it might just have been in the Ep 1 script, it's been a while since I saw the film.

2-1B
10-28-2003, 01:25 AM
Thanks JT, I don't question that Mace probably thought that because it certainly makes sense. I just thought maybe I forgot something from the movie. :)

Jax, my view of Yoda's quote about the Dark Side forever dominating one's destiny is that Yoda was simply "wrong" in this case. It's a very logical and probable statement for him to make because of the nature of the Dark Side. He has seen people turn and he knows the terrible outcomes because of it. But that's the thing about ROTJ and Luke's determination to bring his father back to the good side. Historically, once someone turns then he/she is practically doomed. But it's not a definite. :)

scruffziller
10-28-2003, 03:53 AM
Had been raised as a slave, he pretty much was always bitter and afraid.

"I'M A PERSON AND MY NAME IS ANIKIN!!!!!"

The way he snapped at Padme was the first indication.

"I'm a Jedi, I know I am better than this"

He knew that his darkside urges were overcoming his Jedi training, but didn't want to believe it.

JediTricks
10-28-2003, 09:05 PM
Jax, my view of Yoda's quote about the Dark Side forever dominating one's destiny is that Yoda was simply "wrong" in this case. I don't know if I agree with you on this. It could be that Yoda's statement was more cryptic, that even if the user stays with the light side, that the dark side will still loom over that user's shoulder causing hesitation or other actions that would be affected by that user going down the dark path before.

Darth Jax
10-29-2003, 09:40 PM
I don't know if I agree with you on this. It could be that Yoda's statement was more cryptic, that even if the user stays with the light side, that the dark side will still loom over that user's shoulder causing hesitation or other actions that would be affected by that user going down the dark path before.

as in the multitude of times in EU that we find luke consciously not using the force due to 'visions' of palpy and vader at times when he could obviously benefit from it. since luke trains under a couple of dark-side users it is not a one-way street as yoda claims.

i was merely quoting from yoda. episode 3 may shed a little more light on the subject. as we learn more of anakin's transformation from jedi to sith lord or if others are shown to 'switch' allegiances within the movie.

Jaff
11-02-2003, 02:29 PM
I might have to disagree. I think he was as a little boy. But when Qui-Gon died, it appeared to do something to him. He was taken away from the only other person who truly liked him(Padme). He probably felt like a slave again with Obi training him.

When he finally saw Padme again, his fantasy was shot down. She kind of rejected him off the bat, but changed her tune halfway through the movie. Then his mom up and dies on her. He felt like he failed in his dream to free all slaves.

He then failed on his quest to free Obi -Wan from Geonosis. He feels like he can never do right. Anakin probably screws up somewhere during the Clone Wars and pushes him furhter to the dark-side.

Oh yeah, and he probably thought the council had no faith in him to begin with, so he was up against the wall from the get-go.

Kidhuman has pretty much summed up my every thought on this subject. In the end it all comes down to an accepted boy-who-can fix everything on Tatooine who has family that love him, and Watto who needs him. Then Qui-Gon shows him more encouragement, and then he looses it forever when he leaves Tatooine. He goes to Coruscant sits in lobbies, then is dissed by a judgemental council, then Qui-Gon his mentor dies, and to top it off he has to train with Obi-Wan who said: "The boy is dangerous, they can all see it why can't you!" Within earshot of Anakin. Watch Episode I, Ani is standing right there when Obi says it, and that's why Anakin appologetically approaches Qui-Gon saying: "Qui-Gon sir, I don't mean to be a problem." That's also why Anakin did not jump for joy when Obi said that he was going to train him.

In Episode II everyone who is close to Anakin is belittling him. Obi-Wan constantly chastizes him in front of others to show that it's his way only, and Padme is not only playing head games (due to her confusion), and embarrasing him in front of others by saying stuff like: "You'll always be that little boy" and "Oh, he's not a jedi yet." I myself would be crawling out of my skin in aggitation if I was Anakin. They really treated him poorly throughout the films! Anakin was innocent and giving as a boy. He risked his life for strangers, gave them shelter, and obeyed Watto. True he had a small temper, but what boy under 10 is perfect. On top of that what boy under 10 does not show insecurity and a little aggitation once in a while.

scruffziller
11-03-2003, 03:55 AM
On top of that what boy under 10 does not show insecurity and a little aggitation once in a while.
Thus his future.

stillakid
11-03-2003, 08:17 AM
I might have to disagree. I think he was as a little boy. But when Qui-Gon died, it appeared to do something to him.
What scene illustrated this?


He was taken away from the only other person who truly liked him(Padme). He probably felt like a slave again with Obi training him. He chose to go. He could have gone back to his mother at any time. This is also why this farce of blaming Obi Wan for Shmi's death is a sham. Nobody was holding a gun to the kid's head at any time.


When he finally saw Padme again, his fantasy was shot down.
Well, yeah. The last time she saw him, and probably thought about him, he was a prepubescent cherub. As if she would have developed any kind of "romantic" feelings for a little round geeky boy. I mean, heck, Padme is running a planet and is several years older than Ani. What possible motivation could there have been for her to realistically have any attachment to Ani in the first place, muchless hold on to it for over 10 years. It was nothing more than cinematic license that she even recognized him in AOTC. Hayden and Jake look absolutely nothing alike nor were their personalities characteristics even remotely close. Which leads back into the original question...While the Jake version of Ani was sticky sweet, there is nothing whatsoever in the Hayden version which suggests that he is on the good side at all. He makes hasty, rash decisions. He assigns blame unfairly, and even admits it himself. His moods switch quicker than someone at that time of the month. At best he has a case of arrested development...at worst he is bipolar. Why should we feel any sympathy for him when nothing decent has really been displayed?


She kind of rejected him off the bat, but changed her tune halfway through the movie.
But why would she do this in light of his erratic behavior? Is she that desperate to get laid that she needs to hook up with this guy?



Then his mom up and dies on her. He felt like he failed in his dream to free all slaves. Uh, she was freed when she was "purchased" by Clieg. He even married her.


He then failed on his quest to free Obi -Wan from Geonosis. He feels like he can never do right. Anakin probably screws up somewhere during the Clone Wars and pushes him furhter to the dark-side.
Screwing up is all he does. From the lightsabers to the "saving" people, he can't get anything right. Yet throughout it all, he consistently chooses to blame Obi Wan. But at the same time, when chastised about that by Padme, he admits that she is right. He is a puzzle of inconsistency. He wants to think he is above it all, yet when pressed to action, he screws up. Then he blames someone else, but simultaneously knows that it is himself who is to blame. The kid has a mental problem.


Oh yeah, and he probably thought the council had no faith in him to begin with, so he was up against the wall from the get-go. The only person to remain "against" his training has been Obi Wan. From the minute Qui Gon suggested it, Obi stated his objection. Even in the midst of training, when Yoda chastises Obi about something (in AOTC) while supporting Anakin, Obi still has reservations about the kid, and rightly so. Ani had every reason to drop the "victim" card but chose not to.

TheDarthVader
11-03-2003, 09:10 PM
I agree with Jaff. Even Anakin's mother believes he is a "good boy" when she talks to Qui-Gon. I forget the exact quote but it is something on the lines of "He thinks of others before himself. (He wants to help people) He doesn't deserve a slave's life." That was in EpI. I think the best judge of a person is typically their mother so...that is what I am will base my arguement upon. (This excludes step-mothers or mothers who do not raise their own children...this only refers to mothers like Shmi who know their sons or daughters intimately). ;)

Kidhuman
11-03-2003, 09:41 PM
The only person to remain "against" his training has been Obi Wan. From the minute Qui Gon suggested it, Obi stated his objection. Even in the midst of training, when Yoda chastises Obi about something (in AOTC) while supporting Anakin, Obi still has reservations about the kid, and rightly so. Ani had every reason to drop the "victim" card but chose not to.

I think it was a pity training for him. A final token to Qui-Gon. They decided to do it for him and not because they thought it was in best interest. If they wanted him trained, they would of OK"D it from the beginning

Jaff
11-03-2003, 10:57 PM
I think it was a pity training for him. A final token to Qui-Gon. They decided to do it for him and not because they thought it was in best interest. If they wanted him trained, they would of OK"D it from the beginning

Kidhuman you are right on target with this point! It is one of the most obvious points in Episode I. Anakin was simply rejected plain and simple. Anakin's training was more obligation to the jedi, than desire!

JediTricks
11-03-2003, 11:15 PM
I agree with Jaff. Even Anakin's mother believes he is a "good boy" when she talks to Qui-Gon. I forget the exact quote but it is something on the lines of "He thinks of others before himself. (He wants to help people) He doesn't deserve a slave's life." That was in EpI. I think the best judge of a person is typically their mother so...that is what I am will base my arguement upon. (This excludes step-mothers or mothers who do not raise their own children...this only refers to mothers like Shmi who know their sons or daughters intimately). ;)
I bet if you killed a dozen people, your mom would still tell people what a good boy you were. ;)

stillakid
11-04-2003, 12:10 AM
I think it was a pity training for him. A final token to Qui-Gon. They decided to do it for him and not because they thought it was in best interest. If they wanted him trained, they would of OK"D it from the beginning

I see what you're getting at, however the following doesn't suggest this in the slightest:

INT. TURRET ROOM - NABOO PALACE - LATE DAY

The sun streams into the multi-windowed room at a low angle. It is not quite sunset. YODA paces before OBI-WAN, who is kneeling in the center of the room.

YODA : Confer on you, the level of Jedi Knight the Coucil does. But agree on you taking this boy as your Padawan learner, I do not.
OBI-WAN : Qui-Gon believed in him. I believe in Qui-Gon.
YODA : The Chosen One the boy may be; nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training.
OBI-WAN : Master Yoda, Igave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without the approval of the Council if I must.
YODA : Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you. Need that, you do not. Agree, the council does. Your apprentice, young Skywalker will be.

Yoda (the council) isn't thrilled about this nor is there a suggestion that this is a "favor" for a fallen friend. Obi never really wanted to do this, nor did the Council. However, we see a 180 degree turnaround in AOTC with this:

EXT. CORUSCANT, LANDING PLATFORM - LATE AFTERNOON
Obi-Wan's Starfighter is ready for takeoff. OBI-WAN and MACE WINDU stand beside it.

MACE WINDU
Be wary, this disturbance in the
Force is growing stronger.

OBI-WAN
I am concerned for my Padawan. He
is not ready to be on his own.

YODA
The Council is confident in this decision,
Obi-Wan.

MACE
He has exceptional skills. The
Council is confident in its
decision, Obi-Wan. If the
prophecy is true, he weill be the
one to bring balance to the Force.

OBI-WAN
But he still has much to learn.
And his abilities have made him...
well... arrogant. I realise now
what you and Master Yoda knew from
the beginning... the boy was too
old to start the training and...

OBI-WAN hesitates.

MACE WINDU
There's something else?

OBI-WAN
Master, he should not have been
given this assignment. I'm afraid
Anakin won't be able to protect
the Senator.

MACE WINDU
Why?

OBI-WAN
He has a... an emotional
connection with her. It's been
there since he was boy. Now
he's confused... distracted.

MACE-WINDU
Obi-Wan, you must have faith that
he will take the right path.


That's a far cry from their attitude in TPM with, mind you, absolutely no transition from one attitude to the other. It's just POOF, one movie they hate the idea of Anakin being trained and then out of nowhere, they're fighting Obi Wan on it, the guy who more or less forced this on them anyway (despite his own stated reservations).

So, yes, sure, Anakin was rejected, but then he wasn't, then he was, then he wasn't. Rejection isn't his problem. The lack of decision-making is. Who wouldn't get annoyed by that?

2-1B
11-04-2003, 12:15 AM
I bet if you killed a dozen people, your mom would still tell people what a good boy you were. ;)

Not if she hadn't already been killed by some from that dozen. :D

Kidhuman
11-04-2003, 01:12 AM
Stillakid,

The council would never admit they mucked up. They cant. It would be admitting a mistake. They must back their decision. It was made, so they must deal with it.

2-1B
11-04-2003, 01:17 AM
Well, it wasn't exactly "POOF" from one movie to the next . . . there were 10 years in between stories so the Council had a decade in which to grow confident in Anakin.

I like how the roles reversed. :)

Jaff
11-04-2003, 07:05 AM
quote from stillakid

That's a far cry from their attitude in TPM with, mind you, absolutely no transition from one attitude to the other. It's just POOF, one movie they hate the idea of Anakin being trained and then out of nowhere, they're fighting Obi Wan on it, the guy who more or less forced this on them anyway (despite his own stated reservations).

So, yes, sure, Anakin was rejected, but then he wasn't, then he was, then he wasn't. Rejection isn't his problem. The lack of decision-making is. Who wouldn't get annoyed by that

_______________________________________________

Anikin is simply pure instinct. The guy can naturally react to situations because that is his nature. He reacts to his emotions, he reacts to anything said to him and he doesn't always think about what he's doing. This impulsive nature is something that Qui-Gon would encourage, but it's something Obi-Wan has been trying to pound out of the boy. He is hard on Anakin because he thinks it's good for him. The council would have to notice Obi-Wan's strict nature and will most likely approve of his traits because the "boy is dangerous". He's like a superman amongst them, he is just not disciplined.

The conversation in which Mace, Yoda should be an expected conversation because of Obi-Wan's training style. Obi-Wan constantly has to hold back the reigns on his impulsive, young student. Anakin is like a teenager. Teenagers assume to know everything even though they don't. So Obi-Wan sees nothing but Anakin's restless impulses surface and because of that Obi-Wan is always lecturing him for it. I think Mace and Yoda are challenging Obi-Wan to just relax and see what the boy does with the assignment to protect Padme despite his reservations. As for a change in attitude! I don't think the council ever changed their attitude, or ever did a 180' turn at all.

In AOTC they would still see the boy as dangerous. They reluctantly endorse training him due to an oath, and probably assume that someone so powerful could become a problem if not given supervision. They made a tough necessary discision about the care of a youth. 10 YEARS pass, and they keep an eye on him, wondering where his place in the order will be. Once they commited to training Anakin there is no back door they can take with the boy. They have to take care of Anakin's future whether they like him or not. They are annalogously like parents caring for a troubled child. As a parent my kids will make mistakes, and I can't protect them from choices they make. I must have faith that they will do the right thing whether they are good kids or bad kids. Sometimes you just have to give them ownership and hope they do the best with it. You may not trust them with that, or worry that they will do the wrong thing, but you have to do that to be a good parent. There is no differance between that attitude and the Jedi's attitude to have faith in the boy. Obi-Wan is just an overprotective of his student, and underconfident in Anakin, and the council is saying we have to give the boy a shot no matter what we feel about him, and you (Obi-Wan) need to accept that. After all if he is some "chosen dude" then we have to see what he does! Let's just hope he doesn't screw up to the level you suggest Obi-Wan.

scruffziller
11-04-2003, 08:01 AM
Well, it wasn't exactly "POOF" from one movie to the next . . . there were 10 years in between stories so the Council had a decade in which to grow confident in Anakin.

I like how the roles reversed. :)Correct. After all Mace has indicated that their ability to use the force has all but dwindled. And we know the darkside is hard to see and it has been brewing under their noses while Anikin has been developing a relationship with Palpy. Palpy even could sense what was going on with Anikin at the end of TPM. "We'll watch your career with great interest.":D I am not saying that Anikin has always been at the level of evil he was as Vader but he was always leaning into that shadow of the darkside from the day he was past his age of innocence and that was before TPM.

stillakid
11-04-2003, 08:04 AM
Let's just hope he doesn't screw up to the level you suggest Obi-Wan.


Which he obviously does. What you say in this last post is all true, but the question was whether or not Anakin was ever on the lightside. In AOTC: no. Like Luke in ESB, he was at that level where he knew enough to be dangerous but lacked self-control. This wasn't a situation of competing training styles (Qui's vs. Obi's) as you suggest. Just as Anakin's blitz rush on Dooku goes to show, being rash isn't a wise choice no matter what. Even Qui Gon would have to agree with that. Ergo, there was no instance at all throughout AOTC in which Anakin ever displayed any evidence that he was on the "light" path. No, he wasn't out drowning kittens, but his head certainly wasn't screwed on straight at any time. As you say, he acted impulsively, was moody, and inconsistent in his feelings. While all teenagers have some element of this, Anakin is displaying classic signs of A.D.D. at the very least.

The problem is that despite this 10 year gap, there is a disconnect between the Hayden version of this character and the Jake version. Jake never even hinted at being this way, nor did any of the scenes that we witnessed give him reasonable justification to act out in the way that he does 10 years hence. Straight out of the Andy Griffith Show (Gosh, golly, glad to meet you!) to something from Dawson's Creek. Does the ten year gap itself provide enough justification for the suspension of disbelief on this disconnect? Perhaps, if you want it bad enough. But for me, this whole thing would have been a whole lot better had we seen any indication that Jake/Ani had some of the Hayden/Ani in him.

So from this we can see that Hayden/Ani has no "light" side in him. But does Jake/Ani? No, not really. Why? Because he never was a true "user" of the Force. I guess it depends on your definition of what constitutes being eligible for being considered being "light" or "dark." Does someone who has enough Midi's to have the potential to be a Jedi, yet none of the training, really go down either path? Or do they just sort of exist out there, casually and unknowingly, using the Force in minor ways neither for good nor evil? I say that since Jake/Ani never really knew anything about the Force, it would be misleading to suggest that he has taken any path at all. Even though he his sticky sweet, he isn't Dark nor Light. Whereas we presume that Hayden/Ani has been through that five minute lesson about the Dark path so he should know better and start taking his Ridulan.

TheDarthVader
11-04-2003, 12:05 PM
I understand the arguement now....I think. ;) I believe that the point is how could jake/ani be on the lightside of the force when he is not a "true" force user. If Anakin's training began and he showed dark side traits, then Anakin would have never have had the chance to be more "lightsided" than "darksided". But even though the Jake/Ani was not really aware of what was causing him to "have jedi reflexes" and "see things before they happen" (Qui-Gon quote) I still believe that during his boyhood Anakin was on the lightside of the force. Even though he was using the force without knowledge of it, he used it for good (ie to win the podrace for his new friends, giving the pod money to Jira). He was a caring person more "lightsided" than "darksided".

His fall to the dark side started when Qui Gon fixed the dice roll to set Anakin free if he could win the pod race. Once Anakin was free, the opportunity was too large to pass by for little Anakin. He had a dream that he was a jedi...Qui Gon was telling him that he would become a jedi...he was immediately going from lowly slave to jedi padawan learner. Anakin could not pass it up. So he leaves his mother (the only adult he had ever consistently been around all of his life-great love) and his best friends. He is now alone with (basically) strangers. Later, his nightmares begin about his mother dying. Anakin can not get the vision out of his head (Luke ESB) and must go to "save" his mother. His first step toward the dark side occurs after his mother dies. (Slaughter of the Tuskens). This is when he took the stop across the line and began to lead a more "darksided" jedi career.

With that, I believe he had been more "lightsided" the rest of the time. So what if he yelled at Zam or complained about Obi Wan. Those things would not be significant enough to cross the line to the dark side.

JediTricks
11-04-2003, 10:05 PM
Not if she hadn't already been killed by some from that dozen. :D
She wouldn't be saying much of anything at that point then. ;)

Darth Jax
11-04-2003, 11:11 PM
not to beat a dead horse (when i start it like that, ya know i'm going to anyways), lets revisit the ani-luke similarities.

ani is a slave boy who lives with his mother, never knowing his father
-luke doesn't know his father and never knew his mother. working for owen on the farm he is essential a slave on tatooine.

ani is taken away from his mother to train as a jedi, later returning to avenge her death.
-luke's family is killed by the empire and he leaves to train as a jedi to avenge their deaths.

both ani and luke have their original mentor slain before much actual training can take place.

obi reluctantly agrees to train ani as a tribute to his master
-yoda reluctantly agrees to train luke due to obi's insistence.

ani selfishly abandons his training (we'll find out in ep 3 if it's to try and save padme)
-luke recklessly abandons his training to try and save his friends.

anakin lets his forbidden love for padme consume him.
-once luke finds out his lust for leia is just plain nasty he manages to cast it aside.

both are whiny little kids with a knack for using the force and uncanny piloting abilities raised on tatooine. both are initially told they are too full of anger and too old to train.

i don't think ani starts of any more tainted by the dark side than luke. only once we see ani's fall in ep 3 can we understand why luke is more heroic by managing to resist that path.

stillakid
11-05-2003, 01:14 AM
not to beat a dead horse (when i start it like that, ya know i'm going to anyways), lets revisit the ani-luke similarities.

ani is a slave boy who lives with his mother, never knowing his father
-luke doesn't know his father and never knew his mother. working for owen on the farm he is essential a slave on tatooine.
Not really. It is actually made quite clear that Luke can leave whenever he wants to, but he is his own worst enemy in that regard because he is essentially afraid to leave the safe haven of home. Only when "home" is destroyed does he give himself permission to leave.

On the other hand, lil' Ani had the choice to remain a slave with his mother or leave to become something greater.


ani is taken away from his mother to train as a jedi, later returning to avenge her death.
-luke's family is killed by the empire and he leaves to train as a jedi to avenge their deaths..
Luke didn't leave to avenge anyone, except maybe his father. He left to fulfill his own sense of wanderlust. That craving for excitement and adventure that Yoda talks about in ESB.



both are whiny little kids with a knack for using the force and uncanny piloting abilities raised on tatooine. both are initially told they are too full of anger and too old to train...

i don't think ani starts of any more tainted by the dark side than luke. only once we see ani's fall in ep 3 can we understand why luke is more heroic by managing to resist that path.

While initially Luke "whines" when asked to do his chores, he never acted out in an unreasonable manner the way Anakin does. Luke only came close to succumbing to the Darkside by being forced into a corner...his life or his sister's. No one would have blamed him for taking out Vader and the Emperor to protect Leia even if it meant his own eternal damnation. It was an "honest" slip toward the Darkside for Luke.

On the other hand, AOTC-Anakin is just a frickin' baby from the get-go. Not one bit of his whining is justified. Why GL chose to not write a sympathetic character is a mystery for the ages.

2-1B
11-05-2003, 01:52 AM
I felt sympathy for Ani when his mother died. I would have wanted to slaughter the Tuskens, too. :)

stillakid
11-05-2003, 09:09 AM
I felt sympathy for Ani when his mother died. I would have wanted to slaughter the Tuskens, too. :)


Do you feel that his constant biatching about Obi Wan is justified? Before you answer, remember that even he admitted onscreen that he was unjustified in blaming Obi.


** note, I don't have the exact film transcript available at the moment, but this excerpt from a previous draft is even more telling about Lucas's intentions for the character...**

PADME
Mentors have a way of seeing more
of our faults than we would like.
It's the only way we grow.

ANAKIN
Don't get me wrong... Obi-Wan is
a great mentor. As wise as Master
Yoda and as powerful as Master
Windu. I am truly thankful to be
his apprentice. Only... although
I'm a Padawan learner, in some
ways... a lot of ways... I'm ahead
of him. I'm ready for the trials.
I know I am! He knows it too. He
believes I'm too unpredictable...
Other Jedi my age have gone
through the trials and made it...
I know I started my training
late... but he won't let me move
on.

PADME
That must be frustrating.

ANAKIN
It's worse... he's overly
critical. He never listens! He
just doesn't understand! It's not
fair!

PADME cannot surpress a laugh. She shakes her head.

PADME
I'm sorry... You sounded exactly
like that little boy I once knew,
when he didn't get his way.

ANAKIN
I'm not whining! I'm not.

PADME just smiles at him. DORME laughs in the background.

PADME
I didn't say it to hurt you.

ANAKIN
I know...


In this version, his "whining" is brought to the forefront which is most likely why it was toned down. If I recall correctly, the "I know" line in the film comes after Padme's words about mentors seeing more of us than we do. So first he whines like a baby, then she tells him the mentor line, then he admits that he's out of line by saying "I know."

2-1B
11-05-2003, 11:46 AM
No stillakid, I do not feel his "biatching" about Obi-Wan is justified and that's what I find very realistic and human of the character. :)
He's a 19/20 year old prodigy and he's so confident in himself to the point of being cocky.

A personal story I will relate to here:
I'm 25 now and I remember being in my late teens when I was arguing with my dad about something . . . whatever it was . . . and I'll never forget him telling me "when I was 19 I thought I knew everything and didn't want to hear what your grandfather had to say but then I went into the Marines and soon found out exactly how much my dad really did know."
And ohhhhhhh do I ever know how true that is because I can already see how much is the same between my father and I.

So I like Anakin in AOTC partly because of the way they handle his whining. Of course I don't agree with his outbursts but I can understand where he's coming from.

Oh, and I honestly believe that people blow his whining out of proportion because he does not do it throughout the whole movie. There are a handful of scenes early on when he tries Obi's patience and of course the scene previously described with Padme.

You can't count the Lars garage scene against him because his mom just died and he's an emotional wreck. He said some stupid stuff in haste and anger.
Who hasn't? :confused:

:)

stillakid
11-05-2003, 10:44 PM
You can't count the Lars garage scene against him because his mom just died and he's an emotional wreck. He said some stupid stuff in haste and anger.

Ahh, but I do, but only because it echoes his earlier outbursts. Had he just pulled that Obi Wan thing out of his arse once, then I suppose a case could be made to write it off to emotional trauma. But it is clear that Lucas had something very specific in mind that he wanted to get across to the audience. Now whether that was to tell us that Anakin was angry because Obi was holding him back (which is disproven by Ani's "I know" comment) or if Lucas was trying to tell us that Anakin was really just an out of control teenager, I don't know. But either way, it isn't clear and that doesn't count as quality writing where I come from.

This all goes to Anakin's motivation (mostly unconscious) to what is driving him to ultimately discard the Anakin personae and adopt the Darth Vader alter-ego. Whichever choice (above) is the right one, either way Anakin is on the path to evil because he is utterly irrational. Luke rode that razor edge because he was truly driven to it by the expert seduction techniques of both Palpatine and Vader. But Anakin just flat out starts out as a nutcase without due cause to draw true sympathy from anyone.