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AdmiralPiett
10-26-2003, 12:41 PM
I was watching ep 1 last night and I started thinking about Master Yoda's line: There are always 2 sith, a master and an apprentice, no more, no less.
Well, when Darth Maul was cut in half was there another Sith immediately waiting to take his place (i.e. Count Dooku)? It just reminded me of the slayer rule for Buffy the Vampire Slayer: When one slayer dies another one is immediately created (i.e. Faith became the slayer when Buffy died).
Is anyone clear on how this process works?
Piett

kool-aid killer
10-26-2003, 01:20 PM
Im not sure, but i think they mean there are two (the master and the apprentice) but that there can be multiple groups of Siths. Perhaps like a Jedi can only have one Padawan the Sith master can only have one student too. But there are other groups of dark Jedi, not just two running rampant among the galaxy. Does that make sense to anybody?

stillakid
10-26-2003, 07:23 PM
I've just assumed that this isn't a hard and fast "immediate" vacuum to be filled situation. If I understand the idea behind the Sith correctly, way back when, a bunch of evil guys learned the "quick and easy path" to fame and fortune, ergo, the Dark Side or Dark Path.

Power corrupts, so naturally those in the group all wanted to be the Grand Poo Bah so they started bumping one another off.

The idea is that you could have 3, but probably only for a short time as one of them naturally would crave to be the #2 guy without any competition. Then the natural desire would be to become top dog and bump off the master.

So when Maul gets sliced in two, it probably came as a shock to Palpatine. But his nefarious political manuveurings most likely had him in a position to lure a trained Jedi to his way of thinking anyway. It's not the "Force" or anything like that which corrupts. It's the desire for power which leads someone down that darkpath. At that earlier point in time, Palps needed a pit bull to deal with trouble. That moment passed so he looked for someone more mentally devious to help weave the political maelstrom. So sure, there was probably a gap in time because it isn't a "supernatural" occurrance or anything dumb like that which suggests that there are only two Sith allowed at once. It is merely a function of greed and the lust for power which creates a delicate balancing act among the Sith. With that in mind, it is almost certain that Palpatine knew that one day Maul would come gunnin' for him just as Dooku most certainly will. He must also have assumed that Vader/Anakin would one day make a play for the throne, which is most likely what inspired his admonition: "Are you sure your feelings are clear on this, Lord Vader?" Palpatine didn't trust Vader and for good reason.

Not only that, but because Luke started down the DarkPath, it forever will dominate his destiny. He tasted the power of the DarkSide and it allowed him to take down Vader who in turn destroyed the Emperor. Despite Luke's "refusal" to outright kill Vader or attack Palpatine, he still bit that proverbial apple. Pandora's Box was opened and there's no closing it. Luke is destined to become a Sith whether he knows it or not. And the only person who can "save" him will be Leia, who has always offered herself for the greater good. It will be her death through martyrdom which opens Luke's eyes to the awful truth of the path he inadvertantly took that fateful day on the Death Star. Luke will then seek out and destroy his own evil apprentice before taking his own life and ending the vicious cycle forever....

2-1B
10-26-2003, 08:10 PM
I've just assumed that this isn't a hard and fast "immediate" vacuum to be filled situation. If I understand the idea behind the Sith correctly, way back when, a bunch of evil guys learned the "quick and easy path" to fame and fortune, ergo, the Dark Side or Dark Path.

Power corrupts, so naturally those in the group all wanted to be the Grand Poo Bah so they started bumping one another off.

The idea is that you could have 3, but probably only for a short time as one of them naturally would crave to be the #2 guy without any competition. Then the natural desire would be to become top dog and bump off the master.

So when Maul gets sliced in two, it probably came as a shock to Palpatine. But his nefarious political manuveurings most likely had him in a position to lure a trained Jedi to his way of thinking anyway. It's not the "Force" or anything like that which corrupts. It's the desire for power which leads someone down that darkpath. At that earlier point in time, Palps needed a pit bull to deal with trouble. That moment passed so he looked for someone more mentally devious to help weave the political maelstrom. So sure, there was probably a gap in time because it isn't a "supernatural" occurrance or anything dumb like that which suggests that there are only two Sith allowed at once. It is merely a function of greed and the lust for power which creates a delicate balancing act among the Sith. With that in mind, it is almost certain that Palpatine knew that one day Maul would come gunnin' for him just as Dooku most certainly will. He must also have assumed that Vader/Anakin would one day make a play for the throne, which is most likely what inspired his admonition: "Are you sure your feelings are clear on this, Lord Vader?" Palpatine didn't trust Vader and for good reason.

Very well said. :)
It's not that there is a "rule" that there has to be 2, it's just natural that they would all want to be king.

I read some silly EU garbage about the Sith setting up this plan long ago to be sure of their survival. What the hell ? Why would someone who craves all power for himself give two squirts about the well being of a future tyrant? :rolleyes:



Not only that, but because Luke started down the DarkPath, it forever will dominate his destiny. He tasted the power of the DarkSide and it allowed him to take down Vader who in turn destroyed the Emperor. Despite Luke's "refusal" to outright kill Vader or attack Palpatine, he still bit that proverbial apple. Pandora's Box was opened and there's no closing it. Luke is destined to become a Sith whether he knows it or not. And the only person who can "save" him will be Leia, who has always offered herself for the greater good. It will be her death through martyrdom which opens Luke's eyes to the awful truth of the path he inadvertantly took that fateful day on the Death Star. Luke will then seek out and destroy his own evil apprentice before taking his own life and ending the vicious cycle forever....

Sorry stillakid, but I expect more of you and your interpretations. :D

Ummm, in ROTJ Luke did indeed "taste" that apple but don't dismiss the fact that he stopped himself before going all the way. He threw his lightsaber aside and would rather die than join the Dark Side. Your post suggests that even though Luke resisted the temptation after "biting the apple", he is still destined to turn evil. That is incredibly ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Yoda said that once you head down the dark path, it will forever dominate your destiny. Yoda is entitled to his opinion and it is a reasonable one based on the history of the Sith but how does that make it a hard cold fact? Luke and Anakin proved a short while later that one can actually overcome the dark side.

stillakid
10-27-2003, 01:16 AM
Very well said. :)
Sorry stillakid, but I expect more of you and your interpretations. :D

Ummm, in ROTJ Luke did indeed "taste" that apple but don't dismiss the fact that he stopped himself before going all the way. He threw his lightsaber aside and would rather die than join the Dark Side. Your post suggests that even though Luke resisted the temptation after "biting the apple", he is still destined to turn evil. That is incredibly ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Yoda said that once you head down the dark path, it will forever dominate your destiny. Yoda is entitled to his opinion and it is a reasonable one based on the history of the Sith but how does that make it a hard cold fact? Luke and Anakin proved a short while later that one can actually overcome the dark side.

Yeah, this is a storyline begun from a friend of mine which I came to agree with. I agree, it is hard to swallow...at first. It really rests on how literally you want to believe Yoda's words, "once you start down the darkpath, forever will it dominate your destiny." Well, Luke did start down the darkpath. That's undeniable. It is even beaten over our heads with that shot of his gloved hand next to Vader's smoking ruins. Given that, it is entirely conceivable that this storyline could continue in this manner. If nothing else, it keeps the story rooted in some kind of "reality" and away from that geeky clone sci fi EU crap. :D

So no, I wholeheartedly disagree that this is ridiculous. The guy "bit the apple" and tasted the power he can have. Just like with Anakin, this is a seduction to the darkside. A process. It doesn't happen all at once. Life does continue for our heroes after ROTJ. So as Luke goes on, maybe he runs into a little trouble on Ord Mantell that is just a little too difficult to deal with in traditional ways. So, "just this once" he'll dip into that forbidden vat. It'll be okay. He can quit at any time. It's only once. And then once more a while later. Then again, and again and again. Until eventually, it becomes a habit, a part of him. So close that he doesn't even really see it anymore. It takes someone on the outside to notice, someone that knows him very well.

No, this is entirely plausible and not "ridiculous." :)

2-1B
10-27-2003, 01:38 AM
Okay, it IS plausible but I find it ridiculous for the same reason as the Clone Emperor EU storyline. ROTJ is a fairy tale ending to the saga and the reintroduction of Palpatine as a clone cheapens Vader's sacrifice IMO.
Sure, there will be other threats from the remnants of the Empire (I like the Zahn idea of using one General such as Thrawn for a villain) but they should be threats on a smaller level.

If Luke ended up going to the Dark Side afterall, I think it would cheapen the ROTJ ending very much in the same light.

In the real world, it is a very plausible storyline (because everything isn't always a happy ending) but I don't think it fits in line with the point of ROTJ. :)

stillakid
10-27-2003, 10:28 AM
Okay, it IS plausible but I find it ridiculous for the same reason as the Clone Emperor EU storyline. ROTJ is a fairy tale ending to the saga and the reintroduction of Palpatine as a clone cheapens Vader's sacrifice IMO.
Sure, there will be other threats from the remnants of the Empire (I like the Zahn idea of using one General such as Thrawn for a villain) but they should be threats on a smaller level.

If Luke ended up going to the Dark Side afterall, I think it would cheapen the ROTJ ending very much in the same light.

In the real world, it is a very plausible storyline (because everything isn't always a happy ending) but I don't think it fits in line with the point of ROTJ. :)


Absolutely I see your point and have heard it before. ROTJ is indeed meant to be a fairytale ending. Undoubtedly this Post-quel would seem to be out of line with the cartoony precedent set by ROTJ and the Prequels. But it doesn't cheapen Vader's attempt. If anything, there could be some rather poignant scenes in which blue-glow Anakin pops in to warn Luke of the path he's taking. Don't repeat the sins of the father and such. It's the kind of deeper characterization that drew so many to The Empire Strikes Back. Of course, if fans are in the hobby for the most superficial aspects of seeing Grand Admirals marauding around the galaxy in more meaningless soap-opera-seque struggles, then sure, we could easily pick out any EU storyline and adapt it into a screenplay. But for a "realistic" expansion of what most likely would happen, the Luke gone bad idea is the way to go. :)

Turambar
10-29-2003, 02:31 PM
Interesting ideas, Stilla.
That is the first truly good idea I've seen for a sequel series. I think a fascinating story for E7-9 could come from that.

El Chuxter
11-17-2003, 03:20 PM
Perhaps there can only be two because the surest way to become a Sith is to kill a Sith?

Both Vader and Palpatine planned to ally themselves with Luke as their new apprentice, killing the other.

And I don't think it's any kind of spoiler (just my thoughts based on Lucas' fondness for parallels) that something similar will happen with Palpatine, Dooku, and Anakin in E3.

If this is the case, Obi-Wan killing Darth Maul threw a significant spanner in the works of the Sith. Palpatine had to find his next apprentice in an unorthodox method, since there was no second Sith to be killed off.

Did Palpatine kill someone to become the apprentice to whoever his master was? I'm sure the inevitable deluge of EU following E3 will try to answer that in ridiculous ways.

(Yes, I have considered that Darth Maul was supposedly raised from infancy by Palpatine according to EU sources. But Lucas could invalidate that origin, as he's done before.)