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View Full Version : Do you think Lord of the Rings will overtake Star Wars as the ultimate fantasy saga?



Tycho
11-05-2003, 06:09 AM
Apparently this has been some great debate going on in our forums.

I've personally never seen any of the LOTR movies myself. I guess I haven't been in the mood, and yes, I've heard they're great.

But I'm going to turn the discussion over to you guys with a poll to give you some numbers to talk about.

I'd like to thank JediTricks for suggesting this topic.

Go on and get into it!

Beast
11-05-2003, 06:28 AM
Thanks for including an Apples/Oranges choice. Because it's really unfair to compare the two series. While both have their basis in mythology, they're two different beasts. One is a Space Fantasy, the other is Medieval Fantasy. So there really can be no comparison. It would be like comparing a Western and a Comedy. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
11-05-2003, 12:54 PM
I think it's hilarious that people diss SW when praising LOTR for being "so cool." Hey, like whatever the hell you want to like :) but just realize that if you somehow get your jollies by beatifying LOTR at the expense of SW, you really need to get a life.

As for the poll question, I vote "Don't Care" because I can't imagine how we could even begin to define 'the ultimate' anything. ;)

Kidhuman
11-05-2003, 01:26 PM
I took apples and oranges. They are along two seperate lines and yet somewhat similar. Both are ficticous worlds made up by two different individuals. LOTR set out to be a blockbuster movie, where as SW didnt. Lucas himself was suprised by the way people took to it.

plasticfetish
11-05-2003, 05:02 PM
"they're apples & oranges"

I wasn't into the Lord of the Rings thing at first. I honestly had little desire to see the movies, having hung up my interest in wizards and rings a long time ago. (Mostly figuring that the films would never do the books justice, no matter how hard they tried.) I've really enjoyed them though and am looking forward to the third. I suppose, as it turns out, that I'll watch just about anything with Christopher Lee in it. ;)

I don't find myself needing to look at any of these stories in a competitive way ... seems like a weird waste of time to me. You know ... watch the movies, read the books, play the video games or whatever ... and be happy that you have as many choices for entertainment that you do.

El Chuxter
11-05-2003, 05:50 PM
Well, if you want to be completely technical and accurate about it, shouldn't it be "Do you think Star Wars will overtake Lord of the Rings as the ultimate fantasy saga?" After all, LOTR predates SW by several decades. :crazed:

BTW, I'm in the "apples and oranges" bunch myself. I think Caesar said it better than I can:

Hey, like whatever the hell you want to like

plo koon 200
11-05-2003, 06:09 PM
Apples and Oranges. One is based off a book. One was truly made 25 years ago. One is about reviving something that is dead. Both are about recreating and redifing things, including culture. 'nuff said.

Turbowars
11-05-2003, 06:45 PM
Apples & Oranges baby. I do like LOTR, but I love SW. The 3rd and final movie looks very good from the pre-views, but SW will always be my bag baby.

74Nova
11-05-2003, 07:04 PM
A's & O's

The original Star Wars trilogy blew me away as a kid & LOTR has has done the same as an adult.

Star Wars will have 6 movies, at least 1 cartoon series, as well as countless Novels & Comic Books. Ultimate it sounds.

LOTR seems a little more mature to me. Sure the basis of good vs. evil is the same, but the way the stories are told are very different.

Turbowars
11-05-2003, 07:15 PM
make that 3 cartoon series and a Holiday special :D

Val Da Car
11-05-2003, 08:48 PM
Apples and Oranges or AKA Marketing.

Star Wars has been Marketed to the fans (whether they like or admit to it or not).

The LOTR series in books has been around longer but it is easiler to deliver eye candy and a storyling in a (large scale) film in two hours versus reading 3 books.

Completely different parts of the brain so that is why I selected apples and oranges....

just my .02

stillakid
11-06-2003, 12:05 AM
Who knows what will happen. Audiences fool the genius marketing guys at the studios all the time.


Having said that, I don't think so. Mainly because LOTR has been around for a long long time already. While the movies were eagerly awaited by the adults who read the books as pre-pubescent squirts, the film versions were just kind of a gravy addition to something that already had a following.

Whereas Star Wars came out of nowhere. Had some other space fantasy thing beat Star Wars to the punch in 1977, then chances are that that hypothetical film would have taken the wind out of Lucas's sails. But Star Wars was something completely unexpected at a time of great mediocrity in film, so it's impact will be felt and remembered for quite some time to come.

hawkeye
11-06-2003, 05:40 AM
they are so different, and both of them cool as the other. and what about the matrix? its up there with lotr and sw, but there again realy shouldent compare. i saw the last one last night, have to say i expected more from the ending. cant wait to see ep. 3 and the return of the king.

jeffonthego
11-06-2003, 06:31 AM
Not to diss poll, but LOTR has been the top science-fiction saga long before Star Wars was even a glimmer in a young George Lucas's eye.

I've heard it's the most read book(s) in the 20th century - second only to the Bible! The fact that it took so long to get to the big screen is inconsequential, LOTR fans have been legion long before there ever was a Star Wars fan.

I say all this as a new convert to LOTR, who has never read the books and was a huge SW fan before seeing the LOTR movies. So, I say this in the spirit of giving LOTR it's due - this does not take away from SW beeing a great movie sci-fi series in its own rights.

And, that said, if you really do want to compare them, there is a strong argument for this being apples and oranges - LOTR is 'fantasy', SW is 'sci-fi'.

In the end, I am now a massive fan of both, as I think everyone should.

Tycho, how the &^%#$ could you have not seen the LOTR movies? They are amazing!

jeffonthego
11-06-2003, 06:35 AM
Ooops, in my enthusiasm (and fatigue), I contradicted myself by first calling LOTR the top "science fiction" series, then saying it's "fantasy" not sci-fi. Maybe I've got my labels wrong, but whatever the big umbrella group is for LOTR and SW, I have to give the nod to LOTR. But who cares really, as a fan I feel all the richer for my belated discovery of LOTR and my equal love for SW!

Quite-Gone Jim
11-06-2003, 08:10 AM
I definitely have to say Apples & Oranges. These are both great sci-fi/fantasy series. I think individual you can prefer one over the other, but I don't think you can say either is the premier fantasy saga.

JEDIpartner
11-06-2003, 09:05 AM
I don't think that the LOTR films have worked their way into the public conciousness the way Star Wars has. Even though the films have grossed quite a bit of cash, I don't feel that they have achieved that "mythical" status of the SW films.

I think that it's "Apples and Oranges" but all the same, I really don't forsee people making as many references to LOTR on television shows, books and other non-LOTR related things. There have been SW references in all of those areas almost since the day ANH became a "thing".

Jaff
11-06-2003, 10:13 AM
I picked apples and oranges. LOTR and Star Wars are both formidible fantasy concepts, and neither of them are even in the same ballpark concept wise. Although Star Wars is my favorite of the two LOTR films themselves have much more talent and inititive than the current prequel films.

kool-aid killer
11-06-2003, 11:11 AM
I went with the apples and oranges choice. I dont see any one as being better than the other. I enjoy both but if i had to choose i would say Star Wars. It just has the potential to be so much bigger than it already is if handled well. But remember, Star Wars is a movie as opposed to Lord of the Rings being a book, so obviously things have to move at a different pace. But in comparing the films i would have to say Star Wars is tops. Why? Because i cant think of any shot in Lord of the Rings as powerful as when you first see the Star Destroyer thundering overhead in the opening scene of ANH.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
11-06-2003, 12:25 PM
I honestly haven't voted, but my opinion is that in time, Lord of the Rings will have a good chance of overtaking Star Wars simply because the story they're telling is MUCH more involving than the SW movies as of late. I mean, i feel much more emotion when watching characters in the LOTR flicks than i do during the CGI fest in the recent SW movies. I think this is due to the fact that LOTR doesn't have all that much CGI (yes, i've seen trailers for ROTK and there is a good amount of it, but lemme continue) and if it is used, it's much more believable than SW (coughcoughjarjarcoughcough). It just seems that these movies have real emotion in comparison to the PT.

Now, they will NEVER hold a candle to the OT, at least to me, but when comparing them to the PT< they are much better simply because they're written much better and the performances are much more emotional. Cheers! :D

2-1B
11-06-2003, 01:03 PM
See, I'd rather have a huge load of AOTC style CGI vs. the sporadic CGI used in LOTR.

Quite simply, LOTR looks so freaking awesome in its natural state but then when they toss in that GARBAGE of Gollum, that octopus thing, that cave troll, the balrog, and some other stuff, well then it really sticks out at me.

AOTC looks fake at times but for me it's not as bad because the whole movie has that certain "look."
LOTR has too much of a diversity in look . . . lush natural production peppered with silly CGI.

I guess it's kinda like the OT:SE, know what I mean?
The OT looks great by itself but then they dumped in some CGI here and there and it looks silly.

TheDarthVader
11-06-2003, 02:43 PM
Apples and oranges...I love LOTR but I love SW too! When it comes down to it, I would probably choose SW because I have been intrigued for much longer with SW than LOTR. The opinions will vary greatly and (of course) none are fact so what does it matter? All in all it is not a fair comparison.

QLD
11-06-2003, 03:00 PM
First I will say that I love both....

I will also say there is room for both in my life.

I also, will say that they are very different.

With that having been said......

If I had to choose one of the other, today......

I would go with Lord of the Rings.
The prequels is what has made this decision for me. If you subtract the prequels from the equasion, (which you can't), then I would easily say Star Wars.

However, with the quality of the current movies being what it is (in my opinion), I can't honestly say that I think the Star Wars "Saga" is better anymore.

I also feel that the CGI used on Gollum is better, and more realistic looking to me, than ANY of the special effects used in E1 or E2. I find that overall, the LOTR saga is a more epic story, that is tied together better. However, it had the advantage of being an epic book, before it was an epic film saga.

Having said that, I will always love Star Wars.....but these days, thanks to the watering down of it, I'll use this analogy. Star Wars is more like my first girlfriend, that I will always love and remember fondly, and LOTR is more like my wife, which is what I have always been looking for, and currently love more than anything else.

Boba Fetish
11-06-2003, 07:15 PM
A's and O's all the way, and I marvel at the fact that this selection is losing in the polls in second, but then again we are on a SW fan site, which will skew the results.

As Lando in my pants put it, there is room for both even though I'm more emphatic about Star Wars due to my love for sci-fi over fantasy. Lord of the Rings is it's own calibur just like the Matrix. They are nothing alike.

Please forgive me, but this topic makes me want to rant over a debate about two other franchises that are even more dissimilar than LOTR and Matrix but have been pitted against eachother for decades now over the fact they happen to both have the word "Star" in their title. It's obvious what I am talking about and why is it that a TV series about the future of humanity is compared to an epic saga about makings of myth within a battle of good vs. evil over this one word? Talk about two things that are nothing alike!! Heck, Indiana Jones is even more similar to Star Wars than Star Trek IMO, and you don't hear debates over this even though they were both conceived by the same mind.

Ohhh they're both in space! ohhh they both have the word "Star" in the title! Ohhh they both fly around in ships! They must be competing with one another. :rolleyes:
Okay I have nedded to get that of my chest for years. I feel so much better. Thanks for putting up with my crap.

JediTricks
11-06-2003, 08:44 PM
Well, if you want to be completely technical and accurate about it, shouldn't it be "Do you think Star Wars will overtake Lord of the Rings as the ultimate fantasy saga?" After all, LOTR predates SW by several decades. Well, when I suggested this one to Tycho, it was "the ultimate cinematic fantasy saga" which clearly seems to be all the difference in the world on this issue.


Apples and Oranges. One is based off a book. One was truly made 25 years ago. One is about reviving something that is dead. Both are about recreating and redifing things, including culture. 'nuff said.With the 2nd half of your post, are you supporting why they're different or why they're similar? Seems like you're saying it's "tangerines and oranges". ;)


they are so different, and both of them cool as the other. and what about the matrix? its up there with lotr and sw, but there again realy shouldent compare. i saw the last one last night, have to say i expected more from the ending. cant wait to see ep. 3 and the return of the king.The Matrix sequels seem to have diminished that saga quite a bit IMO, it seems like the first one is cool and the second and now third don't totally deliver except to hardcore fans of that series.


if you really do want to compare them, there is a strong argument for this being apples and oranges - LOTR is 'fantasy', SW is 'sci-fi'.I dunno, SW is barely a sci-fi film at all, it's mostly a fantasy film in sci-fi clothing. That's not to bash SW though. And I don't know how Tycho missed the LOTR films in theaters either, must have been watching the SW:Ep2 DVD too much. :D


I don't think that the LOTR films have worked their way into the public conciousness the way Star Wars has. Even though the films have grossed quite a bit of cash, I don't feel that they have achieved that "mythical" status of the SW films.

I think that it's "Apples and Oranges" but all the same, I really don't forsee people making as many references to LOTR on television shows, books and other non-LOTR related things. There have been SW references in all of those areas almost since the day ANH became a "thing".That's a good point JP, though I don't think the SW prequels have done so either and they are a part of the SW saga (technically ;)) and thus have that sort of "non-impact" on the saga.


LIMP, I think I have to agree with you about the Prequels making my decision for me, especially since I really didn't like the LOTR books but think very highly of the films. And since there probably won't be room for Lucas-style meddling in the future of LOTR, I think it'll be seen as the superior cinematic fantasy saga down the road whereas SW seems to erode with each new film and modification.


Fetish, I think it's interesting that 13 voters since this poll started till now don't understand the LOTR thing, but see it possibly taking over the top slot. I guess nearly all of us have some specific opinion on the issue and an understanding (on a personal level) of LOTR as a saga no matter whether we think it's superior or not. I'm also surprised to see how many people have voted on this issue since the poll started.

You're totally right about Trek and SW being unfair comparisons, I've been a fan of both for nearly my whole life, so neither are "better" to me because they are so wholy different. Maybe SW fandom is just jealous that Trek fandom has been around a decade longer. ;) :D

Turbowars
11-06-2003, 09:14 PM
Now, they will NEVER hold a candle to the OT, at least to me,
I agree with you 100%. The more I think about it, I think LOTR is cool, but I can not watch it over and over like the OT!! Lets just say I could care less if LOTR was made or not.

skeeziks22
11-07-2003, 01:28 PM
Star Wars seems to have worked it's way into popular culture much more for a few reasons...

1) It probably has.
2) It's more recent
3) Movies are more showy than books ever were.

BUT, LOTR has seeped into popular culture long before SW was around. Elves, hobbits and the whole Middle Earth realm owes thanks to LOTR... how many games, movie, and books owe their ideas to LOTR?

To answer the question though... The LOTR movies seem to pay homage to great books. The movies never had to be made for LOTR to have the impact it has. The movies simply bring an old medium (books) into a modern medium (movies)... kind of like an updated edition of the books themselves. This happens a lot (Catholic mass used to only be in Latin... now it has been changed to fit with modern society) in order to make something more fitting for modern culture.

However, the LOTR movies vs. the SW movies is the question... and I will say SW movies will always reign. Now if you compare the novelization of SW vs the LOTR novels my answer would be just the opposite.

03springfield
11-07-2003, 05:17 PM
The LOTR trilogy is the Star Wars for the kids of today. These movies take the fantastic special effects that make the new SW flicks tolerable and use them to supplement the great story and realized characters and settings.

LOTR heroes and villians are identified by their deeds -not by coming on screen and saying "I am the evil Count Dooku -why? because I just told you I was"

I love the SW I grew up on yet I am excited to see ROTK and dreading how wooden Episode 3 will be.

fishyfett
11-08-2003, 11:46 AM
I really love both these themes: scifi and fantasy. But, I definitely chose Star Wars over Lord of the Rings. Why?? Well, for one thing, SW has limitless space frontiers. Which means, more exotic places and creatures, more intriguing cultures and storylines. LOTR is confined to Middle Earth, which is essentially a mixture of mythology and folklore. Sure, trolls and goblins and ogres are cool, but after a while, they all starting to look the same. If you put something more alien-looking in LOTR, then it will stand out of place. Second, the futuristic look of SW makes for a believable technology. With LOTR, its more magical that makes you wonder but not convinced. Also, the characters of SW are more diverse than LOTR, because again, of the wider spatial geography. And yes, the LOTR characters show more emotion than SW characters. They have to, since LOTR seem to be more focused to an older audience compared to the effects laden SW, which is geared to the more general public. Finally, for me, the visuals in SW are more vivid and lively than say LOTR, which I feel, lacks color and is unusually droll. I guess, because it's basically earthbound epic. Hence, browns and grays are dominant. Yes, these two films are both great in a way that they are two different stories. Both are enjoyable and well-made. However, if it comes to making a choice, Star Wars is IT for me. The possibilities are endless for this saga. :cool:

Now, if only they will make a Dragonlance Chronicles movie Trilogy.......with all the chromatic and metallic dragons battling it out with their various Weapons of Mass Destruction, then that would be something I'd like to compare to SW and LOTR. And yes, an opening scene of a Red Dragon cruising overhead a village it is about to destroy is almost as awe-inspiring as the Star Destroyer in ANH :D

Mad Slanted Powers
11-08-2003, 11:57 PM
I chose apples and oranges because I don't really care which one is considered the best. I like them both, sometimes for the same reasons, sometimes for different reasons.

I probably like Star Wars better, because I've liked it longer and it means more to me. However, Lord of the Rings has been around longer. Though I didn't really get into it until just before the movies came out, I've really enjoyed both the books and the movies. The radio drama of LOTR is pretty good too. A bit more true to the book, and it has Ian Holm as Frodo. There is another radio drama of LOTR, but I've not heard that one. I've heard the SW Radio Drama, but haven't gotten around to listening to the ESB and ROTJ Radio Dramas.

I agree with the point made by JediTricks that SW is actually more fantasy than sci-fi. I think the technology they use and that they are in space a lot is the only thing that makes it seem more sci-fi. You could probably tell the same story in a Middle Earth setting.

I also don't care for the debate of Star Trek vs. Star Wars. I like them both as well, but once again, I've liked Star Wars more. I remember seeing Star Trek as a kid and liking it, but didn't really get into it much except for Star Trek II. I was into it a bit more when The Next Generation was on, but then I got the Star Trek Chronology book in 93 or 94. At the time, a station was showing the original series. Now I knew which episode was coming next, and I got to see most of the episodes.

I also enjoy Harry Potter. I didn't get into that until I decided to read the first book just before the first movie came out.

So I enjoy them all. Looking forward to Episode III, Return of the King, the next episode of Enterprise, the next Harry Potter movie and much more.

posty

CooLJoE
11-09-2003, 02:17 AM
I didn't vote, but its pretty much As & Os.

However, if you had to argue the 2, I'd say Star Wars wins in my eyes.

Personally I liked the prequels. Sure EP1 was rather lame, but EP2 did better IMO and brings the story to a better position. And if I was to guess, I'd say EP3 will do even better than EP2 for the storyline. My only complaint is that EP1-3 seems more about Anakin while EP4-6 are more about Luke (even though Lucas says its all about Anakin).

And even side from the prequels, LOTR doesn't have the massive universe layed out for it that SW has. Sure it has several landscapes named as well as various caverns, locations, etc. But it doesn't have the same number of locations as SW. Nor do those locations have as much of a story/history made for them as SW. I just think SW's universe has been more detailed and such that LOTRs. SW's was good enough to get an MMORPG going and it only covers like half of the universe possible. LOTR has one coming, but I seriously sit and wonder how it will work. Really it just seems like another UO/EverQuest but with names from LOTR (places, races, etc). Plus, the whole timeperiod of LOTR has been done time and time again while SW takes the best of a couple time periods and throws them together (space, medieval, modern, etc). And it has its own unique way of doing things instead of the usual stuff you see in those genres.

Don't get me wrong, I love LOTR. Its a great movie series and has an incredible story. But to me it just isn't as unique and detailed as SW.


BTW, as for Matrix.... That WAS a good series until the 3rd. Number 2 almost ruined it, but there was still hope until number 3 stomped all over it.

And its not the serious Matrix fans that liked #3 or the whole series. Its the people who just watch it cuz its a movie that liked it. I consider myself a Matrix fan. And like myself, I witnessed other Matrix fans feel disappointed to what happened in number 3.

Mad Slanted Powers
11-09-2003, 02:42 PM
And even side from the prequels, LOTR doesn't have the massive universe layed out for it that SW has. Sure it has several landscapes named as well as various caverns, locations, etc. But it doesn't have the same number of locations as SW. Nor do those locations have as much of a story/history made for them as SW. I just think SW's universe has been more detailed and such that LOTRs.


I'd have to disagree some here. If you look at the appendix to the Lord of the Rings, he created an entire history for this world he created. There are lists of kings and when they reigned. Descriptions of the different races and their histories, and he even invented the languages that some of them spoke. Books like the Silmarillion go into even more detail about this history of Middle Earth.

Star Wars has lots of these elements, but it has had the benefit of all the expanded universe creations from the books, comics and RPGs. Still, both worlds are vast and full of possibilities for great storytelling.

Lobito
12-08-2003, 03:49 PM
The poll is closed, but my vote would have been NO...There is no way LOTR will overtake SW, LOTR is really cool and all, but it does not count with 25 years of support.

JediTricks
12-09-2003, 01:20 AM
The Arclight/Cinerama Dome here in Hollywood is playing LOTR 1 and 2, the extended versions, this week and next (respectively) to roll right into the 3rd film. We didn't get that with Ep 1 or 2. ;)

Masterdorkboy
12-15-2003, 03:26 PM
No way will LOTR take over. I remember just how amazing Star Wars was when it first came out. The movie completely changed the landscape of how movies had been made before, and pushed the envelope with its groundbreaking special effects. I love LOTR, and I think the movies are amazing, but they have not done broken new ground, nor shaped the way movies are made either. That said, I think the LOTR movies kick EP I & II's respective butts. I still holding out hope for EP III though.

bigbarada
12-22-2003, 02:33 PM
I didn't get a chance to vote on this issue, but here's my opinion nonetheless. :p

I think the OT will always be held in the highest esteem by those who grew up with it; but in about twenty years I think many people will just see the original SW films as something their grandparents are into. And if GL continues to "improve" the films with added scenes and enhanced effects, then I think he will completely undermine the integrity of the movies and the impact they make on future generations.

Let's look at the choices that kids have these days in the way of movie franchises: the SW prequels, LOTR and The Matrix.

As much as I liked the prequels when they premiered, sadly, they have not stood the test of time with me. I have no interest in seeing either of them again. In fact, I sold both my Ep1 and Ep2 DVDs so I could afford the T2T Extended Edition and I haven't had one single moment of regret since. For someone, like myself, who tried so hard to love these films and ended up no longer caring about the series in general doesn't bode well for kids today who have no emotional investment in the series. I don't think the prequels will make anywhere near the impact of the original trilogy, as much as it pains me to admit it.

The Matrix - personally, I never liked the first film at all and to hear that the final installments just get progressively worse pretty much clinches it in my mind that this series will just be a forgettable fly-by-night non-phenomenon.

LOTR: I just don't see anything in the theaters within the last fifty years that matches Lord of the Rings in epic-scale and movie-making quality. Add to that the shear range of fans cramming into theaters to see this final installment: my college Philosophy teacher who lists Tolkien just above Nietzsche as his all-time favorite author; the head-librarian at our college library who finally found a movie she could enjoy with her husband; a four-year old girl who sat behind me and bawled her eyes out as Sam, expecting to be consumed by lava, talked about his missed chances with Rosie Cotton; and two elementary-school-aged African-American boys who squealed with delight as Arwen and Aragorn were reunited at the end of ROTK.

This is just what I have personally seen in my little neck of the world, individual experiences may vary. :)

I think about twenty years from now, as the kids who experience LOTR in theater grow up and move out on their own, we will see a resurgence of interest in these films that will equal (or even surpass) the return of Star Wars in the mid-1990s.

But, that's just my opinion. Individual opinions may vary. :p ;) :D

scruffziller
12-23-2003, 09:31 AM
There should have been more choices or a different poll which entailed the fact that "do you think LOTR will take over SW because it was made better(at least for the PT)." Not the natures of the story being superior.

Ender82
12-29-2003, 06:12 PM
Lord of the Rings has 5 movies(cartoon some of them may be) And the Lord of the Rings has many (not countless) books based on it most written by Tolkien himself

But I could never compare them because I love them both way too much (and I've spent thousands of dollars on each of them)


A's & O's

The original Star Wars trilogy blew me away as a kid & LOTR has has done the same as an adult.

Star Wars will have 6 movies, at least 1 cartoon series, as well as countless Novels & Comic Books. Ultimate it sounds.

LOTR seems a little more mature to me. Sure the basis of good vs. evil is the same, but the way the stories are told are very different.