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stillakid
11-08-2003, 11:08 PM
While watching Swiss Family Robinson last night on the telly, I sat up and took notice for the first time during the river crossing sequence as our heroes tread through the perilous water while escaping from the pirates. All of the sudden, after a bit of doom-ridden foreshadowing of a swimming creature bobbing into view, the older boy is suddenly pulled under the surface and is quickly wrapped up in the tentacle-like grip of an anaconda. While struggling (none to convincingly), his brother manages to find the Indiana Jones-type machete and tries to help. Now, maybe I was just thinking this or maybe it really is in the script, but I swear I remember them saying: "Where should I hit it?" he asks frantically. "Anywhere!" is the reply.

Sound familiar?


What other influences have you seen?

bobafrett
11-09-2003, 12:51 AM
Well, george has stolen a lot of my money, because you know he's getting a peice of the action on every toy I buy. Good thread, I've noticed other similar items, but it's late, and my brain isn't working correctly.

I do know that back in the early 80's I submitted a comic book where I get sucked into the movie ESB. I end up wrapping up all the bad guys with the tow cable in the battle on Hoth, and in the comic I have the Super Star Destroyer planted point down into Hoth's surface. Then ROTJ comes out with a super Star Destroyer crashing point down, into the second Death Star. I believe they used the idea from that comic book I had submitted to a creativity contest for the Star Wars fan club. At the time, the fan club was run out of San Rafeal California. I had to sign an agreement to enter this contest that I was giving Luucasfilm the right to use any ideas without giving me credit. I just look at that little bit of film wondering if my idea contributed to that scene.

If I can locate the comic, I'll show you my original idea.

JediTricks
11-09-2003, 03:48 AM
During TCM's recent salute to Ray Harryhausen, they showed The 7th Voyage of Sinbad, so I caught it. Imagine my surprise when right before the end of the film, Sinbad is rescuing his bride-to-be from the bad guy's cave and comes across a chasm that he must pass to escape the evil doings behind him.

Luke & Leia's swing to freedom across the Death Star chasm is lifted from this scene, though I don't remember if there was a kiss for luck or not in 7th Voyage. Lucas doesn't seem to be trying to hide the fact that he's borrowing this shot, he even uses the same camera angle.

2-1B
11-09-2003, 04:00 AM
I know this thread is in the Classic Trilogy forum but when I watched the Apple Jacks Making of Star Wars video again after seeing TPM, I noticed an old Flash Gordon shot of a video screen. It was the EXACT same thing that George used for Padme's appearance to the Neimodians at the beginning of the movie.

JediTricks
11-09-2003, 06:33 AM
The circular ripple, yeah, that one was another straight "borrow".

Beast
11-09-2003, 06:47 AM
And that 'borrow' is mentioned in the Phantom Menace documentary about the movie on the DVD. They talk about the screen, and talking to the people that made the sound effects for it. I don't see what the big deal is. Lucas has always said that it was done in the vein of the old seriels and movies from when he was a kid. It's not stealing or borrowing, it's homages to things that Lucas loved as a kid. All directors do it, not just Lucas. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Bel-Cam Jos
11-09-2003, 09:27 AM
It's of a different angle, but I direct you to this thread, in this very section of SSR Bel-Cam's baby (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251) where we (read: mainly I) have found many other instances where SW details have connections elsewhere (elusive... ).

It's from the Old Forums threads, :cry: but in the Japanese film Seven Samurai, there's a subtitled line from a farmer who says "It is our lot in life. We must be made to suffer." Lucas used many a reference for his films.

stillakid
11-09-2003, 06:00 PM
Well, george has stolen a lot of my money, because you know he's getting a peice of the action on every toy I buy. Good thread, I've noticed other similar items, but it's late, and my brain isn't working correctly.

I do know that back in the early 80's I submitted a comic book where I get sucked into the movie ESB. I end up wrapping up all the bad guys with the tow cable in the battle on Hoth, and in the comic I have the Super Star Destroyer planted point down into Hoth's surface. Then ROTJ comes out with a super Star Destroyer crashing point down, into the second Death Star. I believe they used the idea from that comic book I had submitted to a creativity contest for the Star Wars fan club. At the time, the fan club was run out of San Rafeal California. I had to sign an agreement to enter this contest that I was giving Luucasfilm the right to use any ideas without giving me credit. I just look at that little bit of film wondering if my idea contributed to that scene.

If I can locate the comic, I'll show you my original idea.


I remember that contest! I'm sure you'll be shocked, but I wrote an entire novel, complete with cover and bound, with what I thought would be in the Prequels. I used the information gleaned from the Prologue in the novelization and any other bits that George had dropped (which wasn't much at the time.) I think I have my handwritten copy somewhere (my mom typed it up for me for the official submission). I'll have to look for it...


And, to quickly respond to JJB, not everything is an ATTACK on GL, so you can stand down your normal "Gotta-protect-Lucas-at-all-costs" demeanor. :) I knew that there were other threads in the past that touched on this topic, but thought it would be nice to consolidate the ideas in 2003.

Caesar, what is an "Apple Jacks Making of Video"? :confused:

Beast
11-09-2003, 06:35 PM
I actually wasn't protecting Lucas. I was posting a comment on Caesar's mention of the viewscreen. And the fact that it's specifically mentioned as an homage on the DVD's special features. Other then that, I only mentioned that your wording of 'stealing' is misleading and a touch harsh, in comparison to what is being discussed. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Anakin2121
11-09-2003, 06:59 PM
*MINOR LOTR SPOILERS*





















Well, the LOTR books have been out since the 50s, and in ROTK, the battle of the Black Gate is a humongous engagement, and is actually just a diversion so Frodo and Sam can get to Mount Doom.

What do we have in TPM? The huge Gungan army attacks the huge droid army, and that tremendous battle, too, is just a diversion so Padme and co. can enter the palace and get to the Viceroy.

2-1B
11-09-2003, 07:16 PM
stillakid, back in '95 when Froot Loops had the Stormie Han mail-in offer, Apple Jacks ran a parallel promotion for a mail in video called "The Making of Star Wars." :) I'm not sure if it was previously released (I assume so?) but the packaging fits the style of the THX re-release so that's why I reffered to it with the Apple Jacks distinction.

The documentary itself is pretty old school as it pre-dates the release of ESB if I'm not mistaken. The show is hosted by the annoying droid duo and a very young, very hot Carrie Fisher. :happy:
It runs about 1 hour in length . . .

I think I'll watch it again tonight, it's been awhile - thanks for asking. :D

Binks, for the record I think that Flash homage is cool as hell. I was just floored by how similar it was because I didn't remember it from the Apple Jacks video several years earlier. :)

bobafrett
11-09-2003, 07:42 PM
I remember that contest! I'm sure you'll be shocked, but I wrote an entire novel, complete with cover and bound, with what I thought would be in the Prequels. I used the information gleaned from the Prologue in the novelization and any other bits that George had dropped (which wasn't much at the time.) I think I have my handwritten copy somewhere (my mom typed it up for me for the official submission). I'll have to look for it...




I had also submitted a picture of a snow Taun Taun I had built in my backyard, and used tennis balls for it's eyes. My step mom wouldn't let me paint it as she feared when it melted the paint would kill the grass. I climbed up on it, and my dad took a picture. I won tenth place in the sculpture catagory! I received a Obi Wan mug made by Rumph!

That's cool stilla, that you entered that same contest. Man that feels like years ago since we entered that contest.

stillakid
11-09-2003, 10:48 PM
I actually wasn't protecting Lucas. I was posting a comment on Caesar's mention of the viewscreen. And the fact that it's specifically mentioned as an homage on the DVD's special features. Other then that, I only mentioned that your wording of 'stealing' is misleading and a touch harsh, in comparison to what is being discussed. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks


Sorry for the misunderstanding. :) Stealing, borrowing, influenced by...what's the difference? A lot, I think, and so does the office of copyright, though in cases like this, nobody is really going to care all that much and mostly will be flattered that somebody remembered something from the past. It's well documented that Star Wars is pretty much lifted directly from Kurosawa's Seven Samurai. The question is, did he use enough elements of the story to qualify it as stealing or was he merely influenced by it? Frank Herbert was quoted as saying that George at least owed him a dinner for all the "influence" that was lifted from DUNE. Then we have those other specific moments like the final parade in Episode I which looks very much like the artwork out of that children's book whose name escapes me at the moment. And the much contested opening sequence of Episode II which looks alarmingly like the opening of The Fifth Element on a shot by shot basis. Are those "stolen" moments? Then we have the "general" areas of production design, like the traffic on Coruscant which has existed as an idea since at least Metropolis.

The idea here is that George has gathered up all his favorite moments and things from his life and squished them together into this space opera. Some are "influences," while a case could be made for others being "stolen." Regardless, they are there and I think it's interesting to hear about all of those elements that can be discovered. :)

stillakid
11-09-2003, 10:50 PM
That's cool stilla, that you entered that same contest. Man that feels like years ago since we entered that contest.


All of the sudden I'm feeling old. :dead:

LTBasker
11-09-2003, 11:31 PM
Can't really think of alot of other things, but one thing I've noticed is the color rankings he uses are usually very close to Star Trek..

Star Trek TOS: Gold - Command, Red - Support (Security), Blue - Specialist (In TNG onward specialist is Blue and Green)

TPM Battle Droids: Gold - Commander, Red - Support/Security, Blue - Pilot (Specialist)

AOTC Clone Troopers: Gold - Commander, Red's still in a command posistion, but the Captains were really alot like a support for the Commanders. And Blue and Green, which are misc. Kinda like in Star Trek. :D

Jedi Tech
11-10-2003, 01:52 AM
I think all this talk about G.L. stealing, borrowing, copying, lifting, influenced by, is getting a little old, if you look at any movie closely enough it could remind you of anything even the color of your underwear. Look at the dam car industry, they can't come up with their own ideas so they modify another manufacturers idea and call it something else. I don't hear them complaining about you stole my idea or you copied, raped and pillaged my childhood. Get over it already, very seldom in todayís time are you going to see anything that you can call new or fresh ideas whether it' in the movies, cars, clothes, food, etc. If anyone gathered up all his or her favorite moments in life and turned it into a soap opera in space, I'm sure as hell there was going to be something not so original in it. I watch the movies and collect the toys because I like too, not because I want to pick them apart with a fine tooth and comb, I could care less that someone made a film in the fifties and a particular scene of a building looks similar to what I'm watching right now. If you think about my mothers blue dress is quite similar to padmeís or my tree in the back yard looks like the new jedi starfighter if I look at it long enough. :D I donít care enough, to gripe about it all the time. Why don't we talk about what we do like, instead of what we don't like all the time.

darthzirock
11-10-2003, 02:25 AM
Lucas and Spielberg are rather notorious for "borrowing," "lifting," or even outright theft of ideas for their films. Some call it "homage," others call it plagerism. Frankly, if you look at every film ever made, you will see images that were "inspired" by other works. Universal Pictures' Dracula (1931) borrowed certain images from 1922's Nosferatu: Eine Symphonie des Grauens, even though the latter film was an illegal adaptation of Bram Stoker's novel that, by all rights, was supposed to have been destroyed for copyright violations. 1931's Frankenstein took images from 1920's Das Kabinett des Doktor Caligari. The Alien played by James Arness in The Thing from Another World (1951) was very obviously inspired by Boris Karloff's portrayal of Frankenstein's Monster. The list goes on and on.

One of the most blatent thefts of imagery by Lucas & Spielberg was in Raiders of the Lost Ark. When Indy faces the Arabian swordsman and decides to just pull out his gun and shoot him (commenting "Hee-yah my @$$"), this scene is an exact duplicate of one from Andy Sidaris' 1979 film, Seven (not to be confused with the 1995 Brad Pitt/Morgan Freeman thriller, Se7en). Don't believe me? Well, read the entry for Seven in any edition of Leonard Maltin's film guide, or check out the trivia entry (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0079882/trivia) for it at Internet Movie Database: "This film originated the 'shooting the swordsman' gag that was popularized in Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981)."

For some people, it shows a lack of originality on Lucas' part, that he must cobble together his films from things he has already seen. For others, it shows a sense of film history and conservation of storytelling. Me, I just like trying to pick out the stuff he's "borrowed" and then go win bets at the bar!

LTBasker
11-10-2003, 06:22 AM
Why don't we talk about what we do like, instead of what we don't like all the time.

These really aren't disses though, they're just pointing out things that could've been what inspired something or other. I don't see a problem with Lucas using the similar colors, I mean without them all the Star Trek movies would look like Final Frontier. (The only one they didn't work on)

True some stuff could be considered 'stealing', but you can tell alot of them are more nods and homages to stuff fellow film makers have come up with. Just like Speilberg homaging Kubrick scenes alot in recent films, ie: Minority Report.

stillakid
11-10-2003, 07:13 AM
These really aren't disses though, they're just pointing out things that could've been what inspired something or other. I don't see a problem with Lucas using the similar colors, I mean without them all the Star Trek movies would look like Final Frontier. (The only one they didn't work on)

True some stuff could be considered 'stealing', but you can tell alot of them are more nods and homages to stuff fellow film makers have come up with. Just like Speilberg homaging Kubrick scenes alot in recent films, ie: Minority Report.


Exactly. I don't recall anyone suggesting that we don't like those things. Homages can be interesting especially when they come as a surprise, as did the Swiss Family Robinson moment was to me. :D

dr_evazan22
11-10-2003, 08:19 AM
I can't think of any right now that haven't yet been mentioned, but did think of a song quote:

Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief,
All kill their inspiration and sing about their grief.
- The Fly, U2

Hasbro'sBountyHunter
11-10-2003, 08:42 PM
I don't remember the title of the movie but Lucas obviously put the phrase "Klaatu, Barada, Nikto" to use in the form of Skiff Guards.

Beast
11-10-2003, 08:49 PM
I don't remember the title of the movie but Lucas obviously put the phrase "Klaatu, Barada, Nikto" to use in the form of Skiff Guards.
The Day the Earth Stood Still. "Klaatu, Barada, Nikto" was part of the activation command for Gort the Robot. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

TheDarthVader
11-10-2003, 09:45 PM
Let us not forget about the obvious Kenobi vs Acklay fight scene which is chronicled on the AOTC bonus material DVD. Lucas got the idea from (forget which) an old movie where a guy is fighting a huge crab. OR should I say...Lucas is paying homage to this movie. :)

stillakid
11-11-2003, 12:06 AM
Let us not forget about the obvious Kenobi vs Acklay fight scene which is chronicled on the AOTC bonus material DVD. Lucas got the idea from (forget which) an old movie where a guy is fighting a huge crab. OR should I say...Lucas is paying homage to this movie. :)


Sounds like something Charlton Heston would have been in.

Jargo
11-11-2003, 04:21 AM
Two words - uncreative 'homage'.

stillakid
11-11-2003, 09:25 AM
Two words - uncreative 'homage'.


Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about this. I think that the difference between "homage" and outright "uncreative borrowing" is just tossing in a small "reminder" for those audiences astute enough to notice. Like the club in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom named "CLUB OBI WAN." Easy, that's an "homage." It's a quick little nod to something the filmmaker felt was cool. I'm not sure where the line is drawn, but I think that if a film is made up of 80% homage, then we're out of the realm of "nods" into a situation where the filmmaker doesn't really have enough originality to "create" on his own. The result is a patchwork quilt of ideas "borrowed" from others under the guise of "homage." This isn't to suggest that the end result isn't a good one, as the original source materials for the homage elements may suck themselves, but it certainly calls into question the overall creativity of the filmmaker.

El Chuxter
11-11-2003, 12:16 PM
I've always thought "Roger Roger" is an homage to the Zucker Brothers' Airplane movies. :D

2-1B
11-11-2003, 01:10 PM
Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about this. I think that the difference between "homage" and outright "uncreative borrowing" is just tossing in a small "reminder" for those audiences astute enough to notice. Like the club in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom named "CLUB OBI WAN." Easy, that's an "homage." It's a quick little nod to something the filmmaker felt was cool. I'm not sure where the line is drawn, but I think that if a film is made up of 80% homage, then we're out of the realm of "nods" into a situation where the filmmaker doesn't really have enough originality to "create" on his own. The result is a patchwork quilt of ideas "borrowed" from others under the guise of "homage." This isn't to suggest that the end result isn't a good one, as the original source materials for the homage elements may suck themselves, but it certainly calls into question the overall creativity of the filmmaker.

Pretty much. That describes ANH perfectly. The end result would definitely be a good one because ANH is a cool movie but it's not very creative.

evenflow
11-11-2003, 03:15 PM
Well, george has stolen a lot of my money, because you know he's getting a peice of the action on every toy I buy. Good thread.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! I cant argue that.

Anyway I think he got stuff from the Bible. Luke, the son, is the savior of all.

Mandalorian Candidat
11-11-2003, 05:02 PM
One of the most blatent thefts of imagery by Lucas & Spielberg was in Raiders of the Lost Ark. When Indy faces the Arabian swordsman and decides to just pull out his gun and shoot him (commenting "Hee-yah my @$$"), this scene is an exact duplicate of one from Andy Sidaris' 1979 film, Seven (not to be confused with the 1995 Brad Pitt/Morgan Freeman thriller, Se7en). Don't believe me? Well, read the entry for Seven in any edition of Leonard Maltin's film guide, or check out the trivia entry (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0079882/trivia) for it at Internet Movie Database: "This film originated the 'shooting the swordsman' gag that was popularized in Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981)."


While it's obvious G.Lu and Co have used many devices and ideas from other films, my opinion is that he is not blatantly ripping off other movies but using things that appealed to him while growing up. After all Indy and SW are based on movie serials from decades past.

In the specific case of Indy and the swordsman I want to address this. Movies were around for several years before Raiders came along. It makes sense that some plot devices are going to be used over and over; in this case it's by coincidence. It is well known that Harrison Ford was sick the day the marketplace scene was shot. He was supposed to have a whip vs. sword duel but because of his bad case of dysentary he couldn't stay out of the can long enough to shoot it. Instead he brought up the idea to Spielberg and Lucas and that's how it was put in. Unless Ford is a big fan of Andy Sidaris it wasn't copied intentionally.

Another tidbit to go along with the Flash Gordon/Amidala message thing is the style of some of the vehicles in SW relecting old serials. For example, look at the transport that takes Ani and Padme to the spaceport in EP2. That looks like it just popped out of a Buck Rogers or FG short.

JON9000
11-17-2003, 03:22 PM
Yeah, so he robbed people. When was the last time you saw a movie that was truly original and refreshing and did not come off as a retread? There are not many of them. I cannot think of a one. Bladerunner is Frankenstein redux- and so it goes.