PDA

View Full Version : "...and he was a good friend."



stillakid
11-13-2003, 02:09 PM
INTERIOR: KENOBI'S DWELLING.

BEN: He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a good friend.


So, when was this supposed to be happening...this "good friend" period of time? As I see it, they barely acknowledge one another in Episode I and by Episode II, Anakin hates the guy and you can feel the parent-like frustration oozing off of Obi Wan as he has to babysit the crybaby whenever they get close.

If they were such good friends, as Old Ben says, then he is either lying (which would make a lot of people happy to know) or he was referring to the great unknown in between TPM and AOTC.

billfremore
11-13-2003, 02:11 PM
Who's to say that people that are confrontational or always challenging each other can't be friends? :)

Turambar
11-13-2003, 02:16 PM
Maybe Obi was thinking of Dexter J when he said that?

Beast
11-13-2003, 02:24 PM
They were still close friends, even if they had their difficulties with each other. Just look at them joking about the nest of gundarks in the Elevator ride scene from AOTC's. He could also be wording it that way, just because he feels a sense of guilt for what could have been. After all, he appears to do a 'rose colored glasses' about anything regarding Anakin. Plus keep in mind that he was also saying that to Luke, who he was sparing the pain of telling him about the real Anakin. And that Luke was basically a chip off the ole block. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Jedi_Master_Guyute
11-13-2003, 04:43 PM
Hopefully they'll have a deleted scene from the PT that'll show Anakin and Obi-Wan running around in a field with a kite or maybe going to the circus and eating cotton candy. Therefore, it could help prove something in the OT as correct. :crazed:

James Boba Fettfield
11-13-2003, 06:22 PM
Good idea, Guyute. Maybe a deleted scene where they Force float small chocolates into each others mouths.

Bel-Cam Jos
11-13-2003, 07:45 PM
It was actually a wrong line in the script. The first draft was "... and a good fiend." The next draft was "... and a goof end." The final version was "... and a gosh-dang no-good dag nappit goober head." :p I'm leaning more to Ben's "certain point of view" aspect on this one.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
11-13-2003, 08:44 PM
Good idea, Guyute. Maybe a deleted scene where they Force float small chocolates into each others mouths.


LOL That would be awesome, JBFF!! I can see the two of them watching some dating game on UPN and in their jammies. Anakin is lying on the couch with one arm behind his head, another gently controlling the chocolate into obi's mouth. Obi-Wan is sitting on the lazy boy, both hands resting behind his head.

"Another chocolate, Benji?"
"You know, i don't like when you call me that...Annie!...any more chocolate covered strawberries?"
"Of course, master"

Man, add some questionable score from John Williams, this scene would rule!! :D

James Boba Fettfield
11-13-2003, 08:46 PM
I can see the two of them watching some dating game on UPN and in their jammies. Anakin is lying on the couch with one arm behind his head, another gently controlling the chocolate into obi's mouth. Obi-Wan is sitting on the lazy boy, both hands resting behind his head.

"Another chocolate, Benji?"
"You know, i don't like when you call me that...Annie!...any more chocolate covered strawberries?"
"Of course, master"

Man, add some questionable score from John Williams, this scene would rule!! :D

. . . and that would put to rest how good of friends they really are!

bobafrett
11-13-2003, 11:58 PM
. . . and that would put to rest how good of friends they really are!

Just as long as they don't wake upin the same bed, with Anakin spooning Obi-wan.

Anakin : "I had a dream that my hands were between two pillows"

Ben : "Those aren't pillows"

Both : "Ahhhhhhhhhhh!!"

Anakin : " So how about those cloners?"

Jedi_Master_Guyute
11-14-2003, 12:04 AM
Just as long as they don't wake upin the same bed, with Anakin spooning Obi-wan.

Anakin : "I had a dream that my hands were between two pillows"

Ben : "Those aren't pillows"

Both : "Ahhhhhhhhhhh!!"

Anakin : " So how about those cloners?"

LOL Damn!! We were trying to walk that fine line, Boba!! oh well, somebody was going to cross it!! LOL

:crazed:

bobafrett
11-14-2003, 01:35 AM
LOL Damn!! We were trying to walk that fine line, Boba!! oh well, somebody was going to cross it!! LOL

:crazed:

Yeah, I usually do. You should hear me at work! My boss tells me to save it for Saturday night. Could be I'm tired and up late taking out my "winding down" time after work, posting here on SSG!

stillakid
11-14-2003, 02:57 AM
LOL That would be awesome, JBFF!! I can see the two of them watching some dating game on UPN and in their jammies. Anakin is lying on the couch with one arm behind his head, another gently controlling the chocolate into obi's mouth. Obi-Wan is sitting on the lazy boy, both hands resting behind his head.

"Another chocolate, Benji?"
"You know, i don't like when you call me that...Annie!...any more chocolate covered strawberries?"
"Of course, master"

Man, add some questionable score from John Williams, this scene would rule!! :D


LOL! But it was the "Master" part which got me excited. :Pirate:

Tonysmo
11-16-2003, 05:00 AM
I tend to agree with Stilla. Wheres the love? From the start of EPII Obi gave Ani nothin but grief. Yeah, the elevator ride up was the ONLY part I saw where they were somewhat civil. Then it was diving headfirst into - Your too young, learn your place, your braid is on the wrong side! If I was Ani, I too would feel quickly slighted by being scorned in front of a girl he is madly in lust with, as he is seeing her for the 1st time in a loong time. The circumstances of that part in the movie still make me cringe. Seriously though,. they have a bit of decent verbage about his sleeping habits, and then whadda know, he is getting screamed at again,. I hate the way you fly! This lightsaber is your life, Dont lose ( loot ) it!

what does he say in that scene? They are about to walk into a bar, and he scolds him, then hands him his saber and to me - he says,. this weapon is your life, dont loot it. I know he should be saying dont lose it. but if ya look real close.. I swear he says loot..

anyhow. I like Obi wan - I do.. swear.. but he screams at Ani a bit too much IMO. Id like to see the footage of the Tusken raid where Ani cut them all down.. Id like to know whos face he invisioned on all of them... hmm...

Bel-Cam Jos
11-16-2003, 09:47 AM
Well, at the end of AOTC, he and Anakin go through a pretty significant ordeal. Anakin's brashness not only gets Obi-Wan injured, but he loses his own arm. That might convince even the most arrogant person to listen to his teacher. Obi-Wan lets Anakin go to Naboo on his own also; there's some trust on Kenobi's part. With Qui-Gon gone, neither has a close person (Obi-Wan doesn't know about Mrs. Skywalker-Amidala yet) to consider a friend, so by default they stick together. Maybe these Clone Wars short cartoons will show how he and Anakin get closer together as friends.

stillakid
11-16-2003, 12:45 PM
Well, at the end of AOTC, he and Anakin go through a pretty significant ordeal. Anakin's brashness not only gets Obi-Wan injured, but he loses his own arm. That might convince even the most arrogant person to listen to his teacher. Obi-Wan lets Anakin go to Naboo on his own also; there's some trust on Kenobi's part. With Qui-Gon gone, neither has a close person (Obi-Wan doesn't know about Mrs. Skywalker-Amidala yet) to consider a friend, so by default they stick together. Maybe these Clone Wars short cartoons will show how he and Anakin get closer together as friends.


It's funny you mention the cartoon, because it was one of their only exchanges in it that got me thinking about this question. As I see it (and as I believe George intends), Anakin is entirely unjustified in all of his toddler-like tantrums against Obi Wan. Obi is his teacher and he is just trying to help guide him. That's all. Even Padme admonishes the young brat after another of Anakin's baby-like rantings against Obi Wan (and Anakin actually agrees with her by saying, "I know." :confused: ) Anyhow, the Clone Wars cartoon scene simplifies their entire AOTC relationship in a quick exchange when Obi Wan tells Ani that his skills aren't in question, rather his maturity isn't yet up to snuff.

This being the case, that Obi Wan is just doing his job as a teacher with a brat who feels he's entitled (sounds like the generations of today), I don't see where Old Ben can accurately state that they were good friends. Teacher/difficult student, yes. Good friends? No.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
11-16-2003, 01:00 PM
I know this just yet another attempt to try to crack on the prequels and yadda yadda, but maybe we'll see them be better friends in Episode III. I mean, they fought in the battle of Geonosis together and Anakin finally has Padme, so maybe they'll be somewhat closer fighting side by side in the clone wars. :D

stillakid
11-16-2003, 01:06 PM
I know this just yet another attempt to try to crack on the prequels ...


It's not an attempt to do anything. I just call 'em like I see 'em. Old Ben said that they were good friends and I have yet to see any evidence of it. But you're right. Maybe Episode III will show some heartwarming scenes of the two of them hitting the bars and picking up alien who**s. (But I doubt it.) ;)

2-1B
11-16-2003, 01:56 PM
It's not an attempt to do anything. I just call 'em like I see 'em.

Not really. You seem to harp on these massive amounts of brat-like outbursts from Anakin when there is a limited amount of that. :rolleyes:
Their first scene in AOTC is friendly, they have several friendly exchanges in Padme's quarters (Ben talking to Ani about his dreams, Ben talking to Ani about the Chancellor - so they don't always agree. Who does? :confused: )
What about when Padme is attacked by those kouhouns?
The 2 friends go right into motion, almost completely in sync with each other. Ani was right there to catch Obi in that speeder. So Anakin mouthed off a bit - he's cocky, big deal. The two meet up outside the club and Ani is genuinely eager to please his master. Obi chastizes him but does so lovingly. Anakin then tells Obi of his fatherly love. The two work together in interrogating Zam.
The two go before the Council and Ani gets his first assignment. From there they prepare to depart and the two have nothing but a pleasant exchange as Ani and Padme leave.

They are apart for a long time.

They rejoin inside the Jedi arena and the two fight side by side, ride the Reek, etc. They are working together on the Gunship but then they have an argument. So what? If all these two did was argue, then they wouldn't be together. After that is basically just the Dooku fight. Had Anakin joined his friend in "aggressive negotiations" as he boasted of earlier, they would have taken Dooku just fine. It wasn't impossible, Obi-Wan sure as hell knew they COULD take Dooku. But Anakin made a mistake and that's why he was but the learner. ;) I don't know of many friendships that don't have their ups and downs.

Oh, but you see it isn't just a cut-and-dry friendship. Sure, Ben says "and he was a good friend" but let's not forget that Ben also said he was Anakin's teacher. He didn't say it in ANH because at that time he only referred to Vader as being his pupil. But if you are going to single out this "he was a good friend" line, then you also have to consider the context in which it was said AND what we learn later on in the OT. It's not fair to use this single line from ANH to show some kind of fault in the way AOTC was done and the way E3 might turn out.

So no, I don't think you are just "calling it like you see it" because by this standard of using Obi-Wan's single line from ANH to show how much the prequels suck, then maybe you should take his line that "Vader betrayed and murdered your father" and throw out ESB and ROTJ as well because it would be just as foolish.

Of course, we wouldn't do that because of what we later learn in the OT. Oh, but that can't apply to the prequels. :rolleyes:

stillakid
11-17-2003, 11:18 AM
But if you are going to single out this "he was a good friend" line, then you also have to consider the context in which it was said AND what we learn later on in the OT.

I'm curious about this. Would you expand on this thought when you get time? Thanks! :)

2-1B
11-17-2003, 12:10 PM
In ANH, Obi-Wan never says that he trained Luke's father. In fact he said "I was once a Jedi, the same as your father." To me that implies that they were equals.
Later on when we find out that Vader was Anakin, then we also learn that Ben trained Anakin.

That changes things . . . their relationship goes from being equals to a student-teacher relationship. Luke is an absolute whiny ***** when Yoda trains him but I wouldn't say they aren't "friends." Part of the mentoring process (as Padme rightly points out) is instruction and pointing out faults.

Of course, after watching ROTJ and going back to ANH, then when Ben says Vader "was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil", well we know he's really talking about Anakin.

So no, we can not isolate Ben's comment that "he was a good friend" and go just by that. When one first saw ANH, it was reasonable to assume that Ben and Anakin were of the Han-Chewie type, running hand in hand and eating gumdrops while twirling their lightsabers.

Just because these two have their moments of friction does not mean they don't "love" each other.
("You're the closest thing I have to a father."
"Then why don't you listen to me?"
"I am trying.")

Tonysmo
11-18-2003, 02:51 AM
I dunno... still think Stilla may have something.

The two may have fought in the clone ars together, but it certainly isnt side by side as the cartoon shorts clearly shows.

Ben in ANH makes those statements as if he is talking about two seperate people, because in his mind, he believes they actually may be.

He states he was a good friend, Ani was a good friend, not great - but as we have seen, it certainly doesnt seem that way. Ben was probably trying to be nice. No sense in telling this young kid, hey, your dad was a freakin jerk, but I was able to look past that until he turned to the dark side..

when he states - A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he
turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights.
He betrayed and murdered your father.

to me this is saying Ani, the one he knew - ceased to exsist.

heck.. what is the arguement again?

I think they tolerated each other.. and nothing more.

Obi had no choice in the matter in AOTC when Ani was presented with his mission to be an escort. So saying he trusted him is a null point.. he cant go against the council.


sorry - hey Stilla.. fight yer own damn battles! lol.

billfremore
11-18-2003, 08:41 AM
I think their relationship cannot be summed up over a few scenes in a movie.

I think to make judgements about someone's realtionship based on observing them for a few minutes is unfair.

If you watched 2 people interacting as Anakin and Obi-wan do, your first assumption would be they do not like each other.

But you wouldn't be seeing the whole story, maybe they were going through a bad time, maybe they were fighting at the moment.

If someone saw you and your best friend fighting, do you think they would assume you two were not good friends if that's all they had to base it on?

I think each person's definition of what a good friend is will define what their opinion of this arguement is.
Do good friends fight? Do they get mad at each other? Is one more dominant and looking out for the less disciplined and reckless one?

I've fought with friends many a time and I still consider them good friends.

JediTricks
11-18-2003, 08:00 PM
I've seen 2 SW prequels and neither seem like these characters are "good friends" to me. There's no way I can argue that, the evidence (or lack thereof) that I'm seeing is just all up on screen. You can tell when Han and Luke are chums in ESB and ROTJ, they don't even have that much time together in those films but what's there is "good friend" territory.

Darth Jax
11-18-2003, 09:56 PM
from what i see in AOTC it appears to me that obi has a fondness for anakin. the novelization makes it seem moreso. they do seem to share a sense of humor over the 'situations' they seem to continually find themselves in, be it a nest of gundarks or ani not finding a speeder with the right color scheme. most of the fighting/arguing thats done is ani whining to others about obi.

the rare screen time where obi actually acknowledges ani in TPM doesn't support the good friends line. but at that time the two are only getting to know one another.

i believe the more intriguing question is whether ani considers obi a good friend.

stillakid
11-18-2003, 10:00 PM
I think their relationship cannot be summed up over a few scenes in a movie.

I think to make judgements about someone's realtionship based on observing them for a few minutes is unfair.

If you watched 2 people interacting as Anakin and Obi-wan do, your first assumption would be they do not like each other.

But you wouldn't be seeing the whole story, maybe they were going through a bad time, maybe they were fighting at the moment.

If someone saw you and your best friend fighting, do you think they would assume you two were not good friends if that's all they had to base it on?

I think each person's definition of what a good friend is will define what their opinion of this arguement is.
Do good friends fight? Do they get mad at each other? Is one more dominant and looking out for the less disciplined and reckless one?

I've fought with friends many a time and I still consider them good friends.

Bill, you're absolutely right here. If there is room for "interpretation" in the saga, this is a prime example. To each person, that definition of what constitutes a "good" friend will be different. Despite that, I can't help but recall the Han/Chewy or Han/Luke relationships in the OT, as JT pointed out, as being undeniable examples of "good" friendships. I assumed that these would justifiably serve as decent benchmarks as we apply Old Ben's words against the onscreen action in the Prequels. While indeed plenty might be happening offscreen, it is the filmmakers job to convey such information so that the audience can "sense" those extracurricular relationships. While we certainly got that message fairly loud and clear regarding Han/Luke and Han/Chewy, I personally can't find the same kind of parallel (yet) between Obi Wan and Anakin by any stretch of the imagination. As Caesar points out correctly, this was more of a mentor/student relationship and I think that we'd be hard pressed to jockey the "good friend" angle into that, particularly in the way that Old Ben seemed to be implying. Sure, they could have been "friends," but the way Alec Guiness played that line left one feeling as though he was missing a truly rewarding and very very close relationship. Whether the two Prequel versions (of Obi and Anakin) have a few "moments" together is immaterial. The overall relationship tends more on the side of animosity and tolerance as Tonysmo suggests.

Sorry, I just can't see the two of them being "good friends."

Beast
11-18-2003, 10:01 PM
They act like good friends to me. Sure they have their problems with each other. But what friends don't bicker and argue from time to time. Sure Anakin is hard headed, and difficult. But that doesn't mean they don't like each other.

The elevator scene shows that their friends, and banter back and forth. Their talk when they're keeping watch on Padme shows this, even if he's warning Anakin about politicians. Their talk during the speeder chase after Zam, and before they enter the nightclub. And especially how they work as a team in the arena.

They're good friends, even though they have their problems with each other. But they care for each other. Anakin even says that Obi-Wan is the closest thing to a father he's ever known. Which actually shows how sad their relationship becomes. Since Anakin and Obi-Wan end up coming to blows. :(

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Beast
11-18-2003, 10:12 PM
Bill, you're absolutely right here. If there is room for "interpretation" in the saga, this is a prime example. To each person, that definition of what constitutes a "good" friend will be different. Despite that, I can't help but recall the Han/Chewy or Han/Luke relationships in the OT, as JT pointed out, as being undeniable examples of "good" friendships. I assumed that these would justifiably serve as decent benchmarks as we apply Old Ben's words against the onscreen action in the Prequels. While indeed plenty might be happening offscreen, it is the filmmakers job to convey such information so that the audience can "sense" those extracurricular relationships. While we certainly got that message fairly loud and clear regarding Han/Luke and Han/Chewy, I personally can't find the same kind of parallel (yet) between Obi Wan and Anakin by any stretch of the imagination. As Caesar points out correctly, this was more of a mentor/student relationship and I think that we'd be hard pressed to jockey the "good friend" angle into that, particularly in the way that Old Ben seemed to be implying. Sure, they could have been "friends," but the way Alec Guiness played that line left one feeling as though he was missing a truly rewarding and very very close relationship. Whether the two Prequel versions (of Obi and Anakin) have a few "moments" together is immaterial. The overall relationship tends more on the side of animosity and tolerance as Tonysmo suggests.

Sorry, I just can't see the two of them being "good friends."
Han and Luke bearly share any screen time at all, in any of the films. They certainly don't have any overly frineldy scenes. Hell, Han is pretty much as demeaning to Luke in ANH, as Obi-Wan is to Anakin in TPM. But he doesn't stop there. He even demeans Luke to Chewie, in ROTJ. "A Jedi? I'm out of it for a lil while and everyone's getting delusions of granduer." or Luke: "Stick close to Chewie and Lando, I'm taking care of everything." Han: (unbelieving) "Riight."

I can't see how you can buy their friendship, but have issues with Obi-Wan's and Anakin's. They clearly do care for each other. Hell, Anakin even risks himself to rescue Obi-Wan from Geonosis. Against the wishes of the Council. Similar to Luke running off to save his friends from the Empire in ESB. But it's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. I just don't see the two of them not being considered "good friends". Unless you're going to agree that Obi-Wan was playing "certain point of view/rose colored glasses" for Luke's sake. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
11-18-2003, 11:06 PM
Han and Luke bearly share any screen time at all, in any of the films. They certainly don't have any overly frineldy scenes. Hell, Han is pretty much as demeaning to Luke in ANH, as Obi-Wan is to Anakin in TPM. But he doesn't stop there. He even demeans Luke to Chewie, in ROTJ. "A Jedi? I'm out of it for a lil while and everyone's getting delusions of granduer." or Luke: "Stick close to Chewie and Lando, I'm taking care of everything." Han: (unbelieving) "Riight."You missed my point...again. Look at the totality of the OT and their friendship can't be denied at all no matter what is on or off screen. Heck, even as early as Hoth, we see the friendship as they share tomes of unspoken feelings just before Luke heads off into battle. This same kind of relationship is definitely NOT present in the Prequels between Anakin and Obi Wan. It just doesn't exist.


I can't see how you can buy their friendship, but have issues with Obi-Wan's and Anakin's. They clearly do care for each other. Hell, Anakin even risks himself to rescue Obi-Wan from Geonosis. Yeah, only after the chick decides to go. He's not going for Obi, he's going for the chance to snag some. :rolleyes: In fact, you want to talk about Anakin's level of "concern" for his friends, during the entire MegaMan sequence, not once does he ever even look around or call out for Padme. He's merely concerned about his own well-being. Admittedly, he had a fair bit of dodging to do himself, but if illustrating Anakin's "friendships" (with Obi and Padme) was a priority for the story, then George would have seen fit to have Anakin be the one to initiate the rescue, not Padme. And he would have had Anakin look up from his game of Donkey Kong at least once to see if his date was alright.


Against the wishes of the Council. Similar to Luke running off to save his friends from the Empire in ESB. But it's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. I just don't see the two of them not being considered "good friends". Unless you're going to agree that Obi-Wan was playing "certain point of view/rose colored glasses" for Luke's sake. :D

Clearly, you once again are trying to "protect" the Prequels from any serious examination. Old Ben's "point of view" applied to the topic of Vader/Anakin's identity primarily because it was relevant, despite your efforts to suggest otherwise. On the contrary, Old Ben (through Alec Guiness's performance) clearly showed that (in 1977) he and Anakin were good friends. The question I'm posing is where in the Prequels is this deep level of friendship illustrated? I have yet to see it, and with the imminent battle looming in Episode III, I doubt that it will have time to surface.

Beast
11-18-2003, 11:17 PM
Exactly. Just like Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship can not be denied. No matter how much of it is on or off screen. Remember, we have 10 years between TPM and AOTC's, where they get to be friends. Where as between ANH and ESB, we have at most 3. And Han and Luke are never really shown hanging out or being friends. Your just accepting that friendship from the limited evidence that is shown on screen. Yet you are arguing there is no evidence of Anakin and Obi-Wan's from similar lack of evidence on screen. Sorry, you can't have it both ways. :D

As for the battle in the droid factory, he knows full well that Padme knows how to take care of herself. Not to mention he's trying to stop himself from getting killed. He doesn't have time to stop and worry about Padme. Because he's battling for his life. Unlike when Padme falls out of the ship, when there's not some battle going on that takes all of his concentration. He actually shows how emotional he is. Worried more about someone he loves, then he is about Dooku.

And clearly once again, you're using any small little piece of dialogue, in an attempt to tear the prequels apart. Just like you do in every thread you start that debates your so called fact, using a extranious bit of dialogue to try to pump your arguement as written in stone. Again, in the end it's all your opinion. And if you don't like the prequels, then I feel bad for you. Obi-Wan is 'rose-colored glasses' his relationship with Anakin. After all, if they were such good friends....then why did he turn to the dark side. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
11-18-2003, 11:57 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa! You try to back up your opinion by suggesting that he does illustrate his feelings for Padme because of the ship incident:

Not to mention he's trying to stop himself from getting killed. He doesn't have time to stop and worry about Padme. Because he's battling for his life. Unlike when Padme falls out of the ship,


But you also claim in the same breath that he knows that she can take care of herself:

As for the battle in the droid factory, he knows full well that Padme knows how to take care of herself.

To quote a phrase:

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. :D

So, which is it? Does Anakin know she can take care of herself, thus justifying his non-caring attitude during the MegaMan sequence? Or does he think she can't take care of herself thus justifying his whine-fest when she falls out of the ship?

Regardless of that corner you're in, you still haven't explained away the fact that he didn't initiate the rescue of Obi Wan. He was perfectly content to sit on Tatooine. The ONLY reason he went was because some skirt winked at him. He was along for the ride, got caught up in a game of Donkey Kong without paying any attention to the chick who got him there in the first place, then looks to Obi Wan for help when it looks like their goose is cooked with a half-hearted "What about Padme?" Yeah, he was so concerned about her in the arena that he didn't even bother looking over at her until Obi Wan said something. :rolleyes:

Then there is the Gunship incident. Yeah, now he's suddenly concerned about her. How come? She fell. Big whoop. First of all, she fell in a semi-deserted area. Highly doubtful that she was in imminent danger of being attacked by enemy troops. Second, if she was hurt in the fall, what was he going to do for her then? Whisper in her ear and tell her everything was going to be alright? :rolleyes: She would have benefitted from that level of concern from him a whole lot more back in the Droid Factory when he could have actually made a difference and saved her from becoming an action figure mold. But thank god R2 was there just in the nick of time after (somehow magically) figuring out which keg she was in. :rolleyes:



After all, if they were such good friends....then why did he turn to the dark side. ;) :D

I thank you for making my point for me. Why did he turn to the darkside? It certainly isn't because they were good friends in the Prequels. And it certainly isn't for any good reason. Anakin seems to be turning to the darkside because he's a big baby that hasn't matured past, like, age 4. He doesn't get his way, his self-esteem is low, so he is fertile ground for an ego-stroke by Palpatine. That is why he is turning to the darkside. What's the problem with that? None, so long as you disregard the OT. How so? Ben implied that it was his fault that Anakin turned. He thought he could train Anakin just as well as Yoda. Well, what that means is that somehow Obi Wan failed. Nonsense, at least as far as the Prequels go so far. NOBODY could have prevented Anakin from going down the darkpath, primarily because he's just a big crybaby who throws temper-tantrums when he doesn't get his way. That's not a failure on Obi Wan's part. It's a character flaw in Anakin himself. Obi didn't fail at teaching Anakin how to be a Jedi. He failed at being Anakin's babysitter. When he told the kid to eat his proverbial vegetables, the kid acts like a 3 year old brat and sneers. He even admits to Padme that he knows that Obi Wan is acting in his best interest, yet continues to behave in a disrepectful and contemptuous manner.

No, Obi wasn't Anakin's "good friend." He didn't even really want to be training the kid. From the get-go in TPM he made that pretty clear. He only reluctantly did it to appease his own teacher. He even makes his reservations known during AOTC. He doesn't trust Anakin or his maturity at any point in the story and for good reason.

Tonysmo
11-19-2003, 02:04 AM
Jar-Jar,
How can you possibly think Han and Lukes friendship was just as trival?

Go back to the Hoth sequence.. - a good friend is someone who states as he goes to look for his buddy in freezing cold weather "Then I'll see you in hell" If that right there doesnt portray a TRUE friendship, then I give up. However, to add one more sequnce.. think ending of ANH, Luke is about to be handed a buttload of lasers from dear ol dad, but POW - "youre all clear kid, lets blow this thing and go home" - HE LEFT! he was outta there, took the money and ran.. nope.. he helped out his true friend - till the end.

As Stilla has stated, Ani REFUSED to go to help Obi.. He was adimate on staying as to not provoke further turmoil from the council. Only when Padme said, well.. Ill see ya then. cause Im going - did he buckle and say - okie.. guess I have no choice.

Add in these new Cartoon shorts, they are showing everything inbetween.. as it stands I see nothing to prove me wrong about the strained relationship they have. The first chapter shows Ani glaring at Obi. Obi questions his maturity, and they certainly ( as of yet ) not fighting side by side.

I know its fun to disagree with Stilla.. but I think what he is trying to say, besides being twisted by others, is that they may have been more like aquaintinces.. then friends.. and everything weve seen up to this point, and not had to speculate about - shows nothing but that.

sorry folks, but I give this forum win to Stilla. ( runs and hides.. )

2-1B
11-19-2003, 02:31 AM
Anakin sure as hell DOES care about Padme in the droid factory. :rolleyes:
He takes care of her in the hallway against the Geonosians and after she falls, he screams for her. Then he has his own immediate concerns: things stomping, Geos shooting at him. Note that he leaps from one level to the next, I believe he is chasing after her as best he can.

This care for her is clearly reinforced later on in the gunship.

In the arena, Anakin certainly DOES show concern for Padme when he flat out asks "what about Padme?" to which Obi-Wan points out "she seems to be on top of things." Oh yeah, and don't forget that he rode the Reek right over the Nexu to save Padme later on.

Sorry stillakid, but when you say: "Then there is the Gunship incident. Yeah, now he's suddenly concerned about her."
Well, I just don't know how you can say that while neglecting or ignoring the above examples from the movie. :)

As far as Anakin not wanting to leave Tatooine to go after Obi-Wan, for heaven's sake his mom just died and he actually has the good sense to listen to Master Windu. If anything, I believe Obi-Wan would be happy that Ani followed orders for once. :D
And no, he was not going merely because he was "chasing skirt." Of course he WANTED to go all along, he's a hot shot young punk always looking for adventure. Given his mother's recent funeral, I understand that he wouldn't jump at the rescue immediately. Jeez, when Obi-Wan flew out that window, Anakin went after him without hesitation. Under less saddening circumstances, he certainly would have run off immediately to help Obi-Wan like he did earlier.

Tonysmo, I definitely think Han and Luke become VERY good friends by the end of ANH. :)
However I don't think we can hold the examples of Han/Luke and Han/Chewie as a model for what Obi/Ani is supposed to be . . . I compare it more to Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan in which there is a friendly respect for each other while maintaining a student/teacher authority.

Tonysmo
11-19-2003, 02:46 AM
I agree with that. :D

stillakid
11-19-2003, 11:28 PM
However I don't think we can hold the examples of Han/Luke and Han/Chewie as a model for what Obi/Ani is supposed to be . . . I compare it more to Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan in which there is a friendly respect for each other while maintaining a student/teacher authority.


Yes, right. No argument there. But the question is: given Old Ben's statement as performed by Sir Alec Guiness in ANH when he says in quite a forlorn state, "...and he was a good friend," is the relationship between the young Obi Wan and the young Anakin sufficiently close enough and deep enough to qualify as being "good friends"?

2-1B
11-20-2003, 01:20 AM
Yes. :)
That's what I've been saying all along. They aren't "Han and Chewie good friends", they are "student/teacher good friends." :)

You haven't commented further about Anakin caring for Padme, but I was just thinking about the scene right before he left on the swoop quest for his mother. He tells her "you'll be safe here" and that the Lars family are good people. I think their hug is quite touching. :D

stillakid
11-20-2003, 10:11 AM
Yes. :)
That's what I've been saying all along. They aren't "Han and Chewie good friends", they are "student/teacher good friends." :)
And that type of relationship merits Alec Guiness's line reading of "...and he was a good friend..." ?


You haven't commented further about Anakin caring for Padme, but I was just thinking about the scene right before he left on the swoop quest for his mother. He tells her "you'll be safe here" and that the Lars family are good people. I think their hug is quite touching. :D
I'm still contemplating all of that. Once I arrive at something of note, I'll revisit it. :)

2-1B
11-20-2003, 01:25 PM
Hey, I wasn't born until a year after ANH was released. When I heard that line when I watched the OT, I already knew he was Anakin's teacher so I took it in that light.

I've already said that as a stand alone movie, ANH gives the impression that Ben and Anakin were "equals." So I understand why some people would have a different expectation of what their friendship was. But ANH also gave the impression that Darth Vader betrayed Anakin and killed him. So if we are going to single out Ben's "friend" line as being out of place or whatever, then we are being intellectually dishonest because of the light in which that comment was made.

stillakid
11-20-2003, 09:41 PM
Hey, I wasn't born until a year after ANH was released. When I heard that line when I watched the OT, I already knew he was Anakin's teacher so I took it in that light.

I've already said that as a stand alone movie, ANH gives the impression that Ben and Anakin were "equals." So I understand why some people would have a different expectation of what their friendship was. But ANH also gave the impression that Darth Vader betrayed Anakin and killed him. So if we are going to single out Ben's "friend" line as being out of place or whatever, then we are being intellectually dishonest because of the light in which that comment was made.


Yeah, I see what you're getting at there. But I personally see a distinction in Old Ben's tone and delivery regarding what he is telling Luke about Anakin's demise and what their relationship was. In fact, as he says "good friend" to Luke, you can see (through the acting) that he really does miss Anakin. That alone should be enough to "prove" that Obi Wan truly believed Anakin to be dead and gone. So what I guess I'm suggesting is that it is fair to single out the "friend" line in this instance because it ties in completely with the way he views Anakin's fate (dead). However, to someone like JJB for instance, who chooses to view Old Ben's statements as manipulative lies just to get Luke involved, then indeed, singling out the "friend" line would indeed be out of place as we then would have no basis to believe anything that comes out of his mouth.

2-1B
11-21-2003, 03:35 AM
Fair enough. :)

I have 2 more comments. :D

Yes stillakid, I agree that the way Ben says it does indeed show his belief that Anakin really is dead.

You know, we can discuss this stuff all day but at some point I think we also need to consider the filmmaking process itself. When Sir Alec gave that line in 1975, even HE didn't know that Vader was Anakin, right? Correct me if I'm wrong . . . but I doubt George told the cast about the eventual relationships between Anakin/Vader/Luke/Obi-Wan, did he? :confused:

So really, Sir Alec as Ben really was giving his lines as if Vader was a separate man who physically killed Anakin.

After that, we have to pepper in the "new" info from ESB and (especially) ROTJ.

I think it all ties in to my earlier post about always seeing the OT as one big movie while I grew up. For me, Ben's lines in ANH fit in nicely with the new revelations of ESB and ROTJ even though they weren't planned out at the time. Furthermore, much of what I've seen in the prequels fits in nicely while others disagree. :)

I'd seriously like to nail down the facts behind this though:

Did Alec Guinness perform his role of Obi-Wan in 1975 with the knowledge that the character who kills him later on is actually the same entity that he described to Luke on Tatooine? :confused:

TheDarthVader
11-21-2003, 02:37 PM
Here is the point. From Kenobi's point of view, Vader is everything bad inside of anakin. Vader is the silhouette of everything that has ever gone wrong with Anakin (anger, hate, rage, murder, etc) and is definitely the embodiment of the "dead anakin". Anakin is a different person . He is the embodiment of all of the good things about Anakin (peace, happiness, love, compassion, caring, etc). And there is a distinction made by Kenobi in the OT about this evil Vader and this good Anakin. "The good man who was your father was destroyed". Let us remember that Anakin was surely less Vader-like during the first 10 or more years with Kenobi. He was more Anakin-like. Therefore, in regards to Kenobi calling Anakin a good friend, ANAKIN was a great friend. He even rescued Kenobi when Dooku is about to slay him. He even rescues Kenobi in that pit that they talk about (mentioned already). Anakin calls Kenobi a "father" figure thus we can infer that Kenobi probably sees Anakin as a "son" figure.

dr_evazan22
11-21-2003, 11:55 PM
I've been following along, and see some good points on both sides of the issue of Obi and Ani.

I would tend to agree with others here that we should consider the fact that there is a lot there that we're not seeing, in terms of them developing a friendship.

As for the way that Ani acts when he learns of Obi's capture on Geo... I think that Ani has pretty much been strong willed, (to a certain degree) disobedient and insubordinant on many occasions. After losing his mother, I think he was making a conscious decision to do what he was told. I think one of the reasons Ani likes Padme is that she takes charge and doesn't sit around when she can be doing something to help.

I think the second thing I would say would be that it may be possible that what Obi says in ANH has a certain tinge of regret to it. Maybe it's possible that Obi feels that if he hadn't been so strict, hadn't tried to restrict Ani so much, maybe then things would've turned out differently.

In the end though, I do feel that they were good friends. I don't know how you can spend 13 years or so in that type of relationship with someone and not develop that type of bond.

scruffziller
11-22-2003, 12:21 PM
I'm leaning more to Ben's "certain point of view" aspect on this one.
True True.

stillakid
11-22-2003, 12:30 PM
Fair enough. :)

I have 2 more comments. :D

Yes stillakid, I agree that the way Ben says it does indeed show his belief that Anakin really is dead.

You know, we can discuss this stuff all day but at some point I think we also need to consider the filmmaking process itself. When Sir Alec gave that line in 1975, even HE didn't know that Vader was Anakin, right? Correct me if I'm wrong . . . but I doubt George told the cast about the eventual relationships between Anakin/Vader/Luke/Obi-Wan, did he? :confused:

So really, Sir Alec as Ben really was giving his lines as if Vader was a separate man who physically killed Anakin.

After that, we have to pepper in the "new" info from ESB and (especially) ROTJ.

I think it all ties in to my earlier post about always seeing the OT as one big movie while I grew up. For me, Ben's lines in ANH fit in nicely with the new revelations of ESB and ROTJ even though they weren't planned out at the time. Furthermore, much of what I've seen in the prequels fits in nicely while others disagree. :)

I'd seriously like to nail down the facts behind this though:

Did Alec Guinness perform his role of Obi-Wan in 1975 with the knowledge that the character who kills him later on is actually the same entity that he described to Luke on Tatooine? :confused:

While I don't know the answer to that, I'm guessing that Alec didn't know. But in the end, it doesn't really matter, because, as I've stated before, I think it's clear that Old Ben saw this schism in Anakin's personality as being permanent. So when reminiscing about Anakin, he remembers him fondly. When discussing Vader, he has harsh feelings because Vader is the one who killed his friend.

Whether the Prequels are playing this close relationship out is open for discussion.

2-1B
11-22-2003, 09:47 PM
While I don't know the answer to that, I'm guessing that Alec didn't know. But in the end, it doesn't really matter, because, as I've stated before, I think it's clear that Old Ben saw this schism in Anakin's personality as being permanent. So when reminiscing about Anakin, he remembers him fondly. When discussing Vader, he has harsh feelings because Vader is the one who killed his friend.

I agree 100% :)
If nothing else, it helped to lock down Ben's conviction that Anakin and Vader were two separate people even if Sir Alec wasn't aware of how impactful that scene was going to become to an eventual saga. :D

Yet I wasn't even posing the question from that angle. I wasn't thinking about the Vader-Anakin connection rather the Obi-Anakin relationship. I don't think I was clear enough in my intent.

See, Sir Alec said that "I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father." (emphasis added) And then he says "he was a good friend."

Also, he refers to Darth Vader, "a pupil of mine until he turned to evil." What he never said in this scene is that Obi-Wan was actually the mentor to Luke's father (Anakin). And we learn in ROTJ that Obi-Wan did train Anakin.

So I don't argue with you, stillakid, that Alec Guinness' delivery of that line shores up his belief that Anakin is dead. What I was really getting at is that Sir Alec did not know at the time that he trained Anakin/Luke's Father.

Sir Alec gave that line from the POV that he was a peer of Luke's dad and a friend on even footing. It's later on in ROTJ that we learn more about their relationship.

Do you see what I'm getting at? :)

seanmcfripp
11-23-2003, 03:27 PM
Just as long as they don't wake upin the same bed, with Anakin spooning Obi-wan.

Anakin : "I had a dream that my hands were between two pillows"

Ben : "Those aren't pillows"

Both : "Ahhhhhhhhhhh!!"

Anakin : " So how about those cloners?"

John Candy would have made an excellent Anakin.

Now I'm having a vision...Lucas will add a scene to ATOC in 2015 that had originally been archived due to its PG-13 content. In the summer of 2000, Lucas was going through a Stanley Kubrick phase and insisted recreating a once-deleted scene from Spartacus which depicts Anakin and Obi-Wan "being friends" in a bathhouse.

Tony Curtis would have mad an excellent Anakin.

stillakid
11-23-2003, 03:56 PM
Also, he refers to Darth Vader, "a pupil of mine until he turned to evil." What he never said in this scene is that Obi-Wan was actually the mentor to Luke's father (Anakin). And we learn in ROTJ that Obi-Wan did train Anakin.



In order to show that I am not entirely married to my staunch beliefs, this line above could be construed as poking holes in our belief that Obi wasn't lying to Luke. Before I get into that, I'll say that I still believe wholeheartedly that "lying" was not George's intent for Obi Wan, so despite what I'm about to say, it doesn't change my mind. :D

So anyway, by saying that Darth Vader was a pupil of his implies that Anakin had already taken that name while still under Obi's tutelage and then he turned to evil. Taking that statement (in a vaccuum) literally, it would definitely appear as though Old Ben was lying to Luke. But there are far too many other statements by Ben which don't support that conclusion.

2-1B
11-23-2003, 05:59 PM
Nahhhh, that would be a far too literal interpretation.
The whole point was for Ben to keep Luke unaware of certain realities and that's the best way he could craft it.

TECHNICALLY, Anakin is Darth Vader. Of course, Ben believes 100% that Anakin was destroyed but physically that is still Anakin's (partial) body. So in describing Vader as a pupil of his until he turned to evil, he's just subbing Vader for Anakin. It doesn't change Ben's belief that Ani is dead, it's just a reality that technically, the guy in the black suit WAS a student of Obi-Wan. :)

So what Ben tells Luke is true, from a certain point of view. :D

JediTricks
11-23-2003, 07:45 PM
As I mentioned before, in ESB and ROTJ, Luke and Han barely share screentime but what time they do share definitely portrays a strong friendship. I have no question that were these characters real people, if asked about the other, they would say "a good friend" in a manner similar to Alec Guiness' reading of the line.

An argument could be made that the reason for this is that the actors, Mark Hamill and Harrison Ford, shared a friendship while on the set, leading to a portrayal of their characters' friendship. In that same note, Hayden Christensen and Ewan McGregor had done no work together prior to Episode II and therefore wouldn't have a personal bond like the one shared by Hamill & Ford, thus not adding that element to their on-screen chemistry.

However, whether or not that's the case (and certainly, as actors they should have been able to work around the lack of a relationship), when you look at Luke & Han's friendship in ESB and ROTJ, it's not just the personal interplay, it's also the lines and motivations and actions they are given that suggests a good friendship between these 2 characters, and I don't think that type of "good friendship" was really written into AOTC.

Heck, even the bond between Luke and Obi-Wan has some friendship from the very beginning, and I don't see that type of fondness between Obi-Wan and his first apprentice. Sure, it may be there offscreen, but when you spend 10 years with someone who you consider a good friend, that friendship usually comes out in all the interplay you have with that person - whether it's kidding around or speaking fondly of them when they're not around or even goofing on them - and I think that should have worked its way into what made it onscreen (a lot moreso than any of the Ep2 points shown in this thread anyway).

seanmcfripp
11-24-2003, 12:51 PM
In AOTC, the first scene of the two together in the elevator does a pretty good job of setting up their "buddy" dynamic. Strangely enough (as most of us know from the horrible wig and beard Ewan is wearing), that was a pickup shot, and agood thing it was. Ewan and Hayden are definately getting a kick out of seeing each other again and I think that chemistry works very well for the scene. Too bad it's the only one that shows any warmth between the two. As soon as they get off the elevator, Obi-wan gets "very grumpy" for the rest of the movie.

2-1B
11-24-2003, 01:28 PM
No he doesn't.
What about that scene in Padme's apartment where Obi tells Ani, "dreams pass in time." ? ? ?

Very caring and sincere. I love the elevator scene but that touching scene is even better.

dr_evazan22
11-24-2003, 03:52 PM
IMO, the elevator scene is not a great example of their friendship.

I think the acting ni that scene is SOOOOOO bad that I am left wondering if it's supposed to be 2 friends remembering some fun times, or if they are pointing flaws out in each other in a "joking" way.

Either way, when it comes to the laugh I cringe b/c it is so fake!

TheDarthVader
11-24-2003, 05:04 PM
Caesar, beautiful last post on page three. I believe that really puts these ideas into perspective. Nice job! That really gets me thinking about how Alec did not know he would train anakin in the prequels. Good point there!

Stillakid, as far as Kenobi and Anakin's friendship being show in the prequels, I believe with common sense one would lean toward the idea that they are good friends. How well was it presented on the big screen? Perhaps not as well as we would have hoped but well enough to say "Yes, they had to have been good friends." I totally understand your point about the "on-screen" evidence of their friendship. But to me it is kind of like this: We never SEE Luke land on dagobah in ROTJ but we know that is where he is headed and he is with yoda later so we infer that he is on dagobah. Or this: we never see Luke train with a lightsaber but we infer that he has trained in his spare time and on dagobah in ESB due to the fact that he "holds his own" in ROTJ against a powerful Vader. So once Kenobi says the line: "...and he was a good friend", we infer that there are actions and situations off screen that support that idea.

stillakid
11-24-2003, 10:25 PM
Caesar, beautiful last post on page three. I believe that really puts these ideas into perspective. Nice job! That really gets me thinking about how Alec did not know he would train anakin in the prequels. Good point there!

Stillakid, as far as Kenobi and Anakin's friendship being show in the prequels, I believe with common sense one would lean toward the idea that they are good friends. How well was it presented on the big screen? Perhaps not as well as we would have hoped but well enough to say "Yes, they had to have been good friends." I totally understand your point about the "on-screen" evidence of their friendship. But to me it is kind of like this: We never SEE Luke land on dagobah in ROTJ but we know that is where he is headed and he is with yoda later so we infer that he is on dagobah. Or this: we never see Luke train with a lightsaber but we infer that he has trained in his spare time and on dagobah in ESB due to the fact that he "holds his own" in ROTJ against a powerful Vader. So once Kenobi says the line: "...and he was a good friend", we infer that there are actions and situations off screen that support that idea.

Yes I understand what you're getting at (and nice post by the way :) ) but I'd offer that in fact the onscreen evidence not only doesn't show us that they are "good friends," but also shows us that they aren't good friends. As Caesar pointed out, this relationship was essentially teacher/pupil and not a whole lot more. Sure, they may have experienced a couple of cutesy moments together fit for the occasional reminiscing, but that hardly makes them "good friends."

TheDarthVader
11-24-2003, 11:15 PM
True, there is not much on screen evidence to support "good friends". But I am guessing more happened offscreen. (Which, I know...does seem crazier) :D

JediTricks
11-24-2003, 11:40 PM
It's funny (not in a "ha ha" way), but in Ep2, it seems like Mace and Obi-Wan are closer friends than Obi-Wan and Anakin. Then there's the instant warmth Obi-Wan shares with Dexter, and he wasn't even in the damn scene with Ewan. I think that shows that Ewan can show that emotion of warm friendship here in the SW prequels, but I still don't see it between his character and Anakin. If I had to choose a main cause, I'd point at the script, or maybe the director or even in this case the producer or casting director.

stillakid
11-25-2003, 10:14 PM
It's funny (not in a "ha ha" way), but in Ep2, it seems like Mace and Obi-Wan are closer friends than Obi-Wan and Anakin. Then there's the instant warmth Obi-Wan shares with Dexter, and he wasn't even in the damn scene with Ewan. I think that shows that Ewan can show that emotion of warm friendship here in the SW prequels, but I still don't see it between his character and Anakin. If I had to choose a main cause, I'd point at the script, or maybe the director or even in this case the producer or casting director.


Good point about Dex. I felt that as well. Had the ANH reference been pointed toward Dex instead, I would have bought it without question. And that without the benefit of tons more screen time. I too blame the script and I'm still not convinced that Hayden was really the best choice to represent this stage of Anakin's life.

Turambar
11-27-2003, 12:09 AM
Yeah, I really don't see much of a friendship there. I don't want to have to "extrapolate" to understand they are friends by considering the 10 years and all the offscreen shtuff that I, the viewer, am unaware of, when it would have been much easier to show onscreen.
All I see in the elevator scene is Obi trying to teach, and an arrogant punk talking back to his mentor and blaming Obi for his own mistake. I don't know if it was GL's intent to show Obi as a poor teacher, but I thought he often had a condescending manner with Ani -- especially in front of padme (who ani was in lust with for some reason even though he hadn't seen or heard from her in 10 years. now, I don't know if its common for 9 year old boys to lust after a girl for that long -- but hey, Ani's got problems, obviously).

I suppose one could argue that ben was getting senile in his old age and memories began to scramble, so perhaps he was confusing his good friendship with Dex for the relationship with Ani.

2-1B
11-27-2003, 12:44 AM
I have no idea if this will happen or not, but episode 3 might show more of the "good friend" status that some of you want. :)
AOTC may be more of a student/teacher scenario and before Ani eventually falls in E3 we might see the two of them on more equal footing. Who knows . . .
I'm not saying that from any spoiler POV, it's just a possibility I'm throwing out there. :confused:

stillakid
11-27-2003, 11:34 AM
Yeah, I really don't see much of a friendship there. I don't want to have to "extrapolate" to understand they are friends by considering the 10 years and all the offscreen shtuff that I, the viewer, am unaware of, when it would have been much easier to show onscreen.
All I see in the elevator scene is Obi trying to teach, and an arrogant punk talking back to his mentor and blaming Obi for his own mistake. I don't know if it was GL's intent to show Obi as a poor teacher, but I thought he often had a condescending manner with Ani -- especially in front of padme (who ani was in lust with for some reason even though he hadn't seen or heard from her in 10 years. now, I don't know if its common for 9 year old boys to lust after a girl for that long -- but hey, Ani's got problems, obviously).

I suppose one could argue that ben was getting senile in his old age and memories began to scramble, so perhaps he was confusing his good friendship with Dex for the relationship with Ani.


That was probably one of the best summaries of Anakin that I've read yet. :) And maybe if I start using "extrapolate" instead of "rationalize," I won't get beat up quite as much. ;)

2-1B
12-03-2003, 12:04 AM
Padme in AOTC: "He's your friend! Your mentor!"
Anakin: "He's like my father!"

In discussing this thread last month, I totally forgot about m'lady saying that and I just recalled it tonight . . . so I thought I'd throw it out there.
That exchange right there best describes my feelings on the matter.
Yes they are good friends but the mentor/father situation casts it in a different light. :)

Turambar, I disagree with you on the elevator scene. Yes Ani was being arrogant, I won't argue that, but IMO that little laugh Ani breaks into at the end of their conversation shows to me that Ani's cockiness was just leading into a good natured ball breaking of Obi-Wan. I love a good roast. :D

r3pohh yeah
01-16-2004, 03:08 AM
[QUOTE=Tonysmo]I tend to agree with Stilla. Wheres the love? From the start of EPII Obi gave Ani nothin but grief. Yeah, the elevator ride up was the ONLY part I saw where they were somewhat civil. Then it was diving headfirst into - Your too young, learn your place, your braid is on the wrong side! If I was Ani, I too would feel quickly slighted by being scorned in front of a girl he is madly in lust with, as he is seeing her for the 1st time in a loong time. The circumstances of that part in the movie still make me cringe. Seriously though,. they have a bit of decent verbage about his sleeping habits, and then whadda know, he is getting screamed at again,. I hate the way you fly! This lightsaber is your life, Dont lose ( loot ) it!

I agree that obi wan was perhaps overly criticall and not very friend like, however, I read in an interview with george lucas that he wrote obi overly critical to anikin on porpouse. The reason for this is that he will later feel partly reasponsible for anikins turn to the dark side, and in turn wants to make it up by teaching luke better.

rbaumhauer
02-01-2004, 11:59 AM
Okay, I know I'm jumping in here really late, but I came here looking for something related to some thoughts I had while looking at some old Star Wars roleplaying books, and this seems like a good place to start.

First, the reason I came to SSG first is because, more than anything else (even the films - only the soundtracks come close), I find that my action figure collection can still make me feel something like the 10-year-old who first became enchanted with Star Wars. These little hunks of painted plastic retain some of the iconography that I responded to so strongly back then - Darth Vader's helmet, the Stormtrooper armor, R2 units, Jawas and their glowing eyes, the sight and sound of a lightsaber, TIE Fighters, Stardestroyers, the Millenium Falcon, Luke's "farm boy" outfit: they all contain "meaning" for me beyond their simple physical representation.

So, the thought that hit me today was this - there is the belief (or hope, in some quarters) that we will see the birth of Luke and Leia in Ep3, and this strikes me as more than a little problematic. Since we know that Luke is supposed to be about 20 in ANH, that would mean that the Empire, as we see it in ANH, would have existed for less than 20 years. Honestly, on the scale of something like a galaxy, 20 years seems like a blip to me, almost inconsequential. Not to the people who lived through it, of course - a lot of damage can be done in 20 years - but it still seems like an awfully short period of time.

Personally, I believed (back when the OT was new) that the Empire had been born out of events that happened 40-50 years before ANH - I'm not sure if that was stated anywhere definitively, but that felt about right to me. The hunting down of the Jedi, and therefore the "turning" of Anakin, would have to have occured *after* the formation of the Empire, not before (as is being shown, I think, in the PT). Anything shorter doesn't feel right to me, for a number of reasons.

For instance, all of the officers and such that we see in the OT feel to me like men who have only known the Empire - they don't feel to me like men who served in Republic fleets, but more like men who came to power after a purge, and I really don't think that 15-20 years, on the scale of a galaxy (no matter how fast hyperspace travel may be) is enough time for all that to occur.

On top of that, I think it would take more than 15-20 years for the public's belief in the Jedi or "the Force" to completely disappear - this would, I think, take at least a couple generations, probably more. By the time of ANH, men like Moti are calling the Force an "ancient religion", but based on the PT, there were swarms of Jedi fighting shoulder-to-shoulder only 25 years before. Folks, "Star Wars" came out over 25 years ago - how would you feel if people were talking about Watergate or Vietnam like it never happened? Wouldn't it feel a bit weird? This sort of thing is only possible if few enough people are still alive to refute the claims - think of the Holocaust for an example, which took place over 60 years ago.

Then there's the problem of other characters' age - Obi-wan, for instance, seems to be well into his sixties in ANH (Guinness was 62 in ANH). However, he seems to be about 20 in TPM, therefore 30 in AOTC, and maybe a couple years older in Ep3, so it would be stretching things to get him even to the age of 60 in ANH. Vader's age, based on how he looks when the helmet comes off in ROTJ, is hard to figure, based on his physical deformities, but he was played by an actor who was near 80 at the time. Certainly, Vader was younger than Kenobi, but how much younger?

So we get, inevitably, back to Lucas' regrettable decision to make Anakin a child in Ep1. For the purposes of this topic, this decision has MAJOR ramifications. If Anakin had been 15 in Ep1, and Obi-wan 20, then I think a case could be made for there being a friendship of the kind implied by Guinness' performance in ANH. However, by making the age disparity so great, there's no way to avoid the relationship feeling more like a strained teacher/pupil. Making Anakin a teenager in Ep1 also gets him into his thirties, perhaps, by Ep3, and plausibly into his 50s in ANH. As it stands, if Anakin is 19 in AOTC, then he's in his early-to-mid 40s in ANH, and that doesn't seem to wash with what we see on screen.

So, I think there are good reasons why Stillakid doesn't see two "good friends" on screen in AOTC - because of the decision to make the age disparity 10 years (or greater), a closer friendship than what is shown seems impossible. If these were characters that had spent their 20s and 30s together, fighting side-by-side, then I could see a real friendship developing. However, as it stands, it appears that Anakin will "fall" in his early 20s, before ever having the opportunity to develop any real depth as a person.

As written, Anakin Skywalker lacks the tragedy that I think Lucas wants him to have, because he doesn't "fall" from any position of true greatness - he's just a talented, hotheaded kid who never attains his potential. He's the equivalent of a hotshot basketball player who blows out his knee halfway through college, with Obi-wan as the young-ish coach who tries to teach him some humility and fails. This is, at its heart, a humdrum story, told every day - tragic, perhaps, on the smallest level, but hardly earth(or galaxy)-shattering.

On the other hand, if we see Anakin first as a teenager, then watch him grow into a man of some depth, then calling his "fall" a tragedy has some weight. If he was trained in his teens and twenties by Obi-wan, and seemed to be a good and decent man during that time (as well as a "cunning warrior"), then his fall hits home in some recognizable way. As Stillakid says, as the PT has been told, Anakin's fall isn't anybody's fault - he's fundamentally flawed (like a poorly-bred puppy), and there's nothing to learn from him.

If Lucas had simply made Anakin a teenager in Ep1, he would have avoided this whole mess. We could then buy Anakin and Obi-wan being "good friends", the relationship with Padme might feel remotely plausible, the characters' ages in the OT might make some sense. However, for reasons clear only to himself, George made the decision he did, and doomed the PT to mediocrity, because the base it was built on was so flimsy and far-fetched. He's given us an Anakin Skywalker that is impossible for audiences to identify with - a poorly-written prodigy (played by a strictly average child actor) in Ep1, and whiny hothead of no real redeeming quality in Ep2.

At the end of ROTJ, the implication was that Anakin Skywalker was a good man who had fallen and been redeemed, but thus far, the PT has comprehensively failed to show anything of the sort. As it stands, tossing the Emperor down the shaft looks like the only really good thing Anakin did in his life, having spent his formative years as nothing but a tool of Palpatine. This is not a character to build 6 movies around, and I don't get why Lucas thinks that he is.

2-1B
02-01-2004, 12:22 PM
Good post rbaumhauer . . . until you got to the part about Anakin being "impossible" for audiences to identify with. :)

stillakid
02-01-2004, 02:12 PM
All I can say is that I wish I could have written that myself, rbaumhauer. Not only was that one of the most articulate and eloquent descriptions of the saga to date that I've read, but it was dead spot on. Every word.

The part that I myself hadn't really explored was this entire business of Anakin "falling" before or during the fall of the Republic itself. While George did state sometime in the distant past that this entire saga was only to be around 40 years total (that was for 9 episodes, mind you), the disparity in the time element is definitely a valid point of contention. As you stated, this story would have been much better and made more sense had Anakin been brought into the plotline well within the period when the Republic was falling apart. Having him be one of the mechanics of it is unnecessary and the details are problematic.

Well done!

rbaumhauer
02-01-2004, 03:38 PM
Good post rbaumhauer . . . until you got to the part about Anakin being "impossible" for audiences to identify with. :)

Caesar - thanks for the compliment! You are correct, of course - "impossible" is too strong. Substitute "extremely challenging", and I think it still makes the same point - Luke is, it seems to me (for all his admitted whining) a much more sympathetic protagonist, and easier for an audience to connect with.

I don't think that Anakin leaves much for the viewer to get into - he's too smart and talented for his age in TPM, and not written or performed in a way that suggests corresponding depth. In AOTC, we are told over and over how "powerful" he is, but again, there's no real depth, just petulance. If there was even a hint of depth beyond his years, the Padme situation might make some sense, but it just isn't there. The thought that this mature-beyond-her-years politician (and there are silly premises there, too) would somehow fall for the Anakin we see in AOTC, a kid she met when he was 9 and she was 14 and the queen of a whole freakin' planet, is just creepy (cue Weird Al video).

If anything, Anakin's immature for his age, like the emotional equivalent of a 14-year-old just after a growth spurt who has great strength, but no ability to control it, no coordination. Watching him achieve that control and maturity (as Luke does) makes for compelling drama; watching him continually flailing around, never getting the hang of things or growing, isn't. His character arc is, essentially, "he's a jerk, then he's a murderous jerk with lots of power, then he suddenly isn't a jerk for a couple minutes, then he dies, The End".

Why should we care about this guy? I really don't know, and I don't think Lucas has done nearly enough to show us why.

Rick

Kidhuman
02-01-2004, 04:12 PM
Then there's the problem of other characters' age - Obi-wan, for instance, seems to be well into his sixties in ANH (Guinness was 62 in ANH). However, he seems to be about 20 in TPM, therefore 30 in AOTC, and maybe a couple years older in Ep3, so it would be stretching things to get him even to the age of 60 in ANH. Vader's age, based on how he looks when the helmet comes off in ROTJ, is hard to figure, based on his physical deformities, but he was played by an actor who was near 80 at the time. Certainly, Vader was younger than Kenobi, but how much younger?

Well then, you can use basic mathematics here. Obi was about twenty in TPM, therefore about 30 at AOTC. and lets say......ummm 35 for EP3. add twenty tothat and he is 55. Close enough to 60 for me.

Now if Obi was Twenty during TPM, and Anakin was 9, Obi is 11 years older than him. So Anakin was around 45 for ANH. and roughly 50 for ROTJ.

rbaumhauer
02-01-2004, 06:23 PM
Well then, you can use basic mathematics here. Obi was about twenty in TPM, therefore about 30 at AOTC. and lets say......ummm 35 for EP3. add twenty tothat and he is 55. Close enough to 60 for me.

Now if Obi was Twenty during TPM, and Anakin was 9, Obi is 11 years older than him. So Anakin was around 45 for ANH. and roughly 50 for ROTJ.

But, in order to even get within 5 years of plausibility, you're fudging the math.

According to what I've seen, it's only about 2-3 years between AOTC and Ep3, and there were 3.5 years between ANH and ROTJ. So Obi-wan is now about 52 in ANH (not plausible, no matter how much you fudge it - he was a "crazy old man", not middle-aged) and Anakin is about 45 in ROTJ.

Sorry, using basic mathematics, it doesn't work - there's no way that the "glowing Anakin" at the end of ROTJ is 45. I don't think he's supposed to be in his late 70s (as the actor was), but there's no way he's in his 40s. There are rumors, of course, that Lucas will "fix" the end of ROTJ somehow, but that just points to changes in the chronology and story that Lucas will insist didn't happen.

Kidhuman
02-01-2004, 10:30 PM
He was a stressed filled person and that adds age to anyone. He had his limbs lost and all. That would make me look 70 when I'm 35.

2-1B
02-01-2004, 10:34 PM
Caesar - thanks for the compliment! You are correct, of course - "impossible" is too strong. Substitute "extremely challenging", and I think it still makes the same point - Luke is, it seems to me (for all his admitted whining) a much more sympathetic protagonist, and easier for an audience to connect with.

Good, I'm glad you took it as a compliment because I was being serious and not sarcastic. Nice job of laying out your thoughts and why you feel the way you do. :)


I don't think that Anakin leaves much for the viewer to get into - he's too smart and talented for his age in TPM, and not written or performed in a way that suggests corresponding depth. In AOTC, we are told over and over how "powerful" he is, but again, there's no real depth, just petulance. If there was even a hint of depth beyond his years, the Padme situation might make some sense, but it just isn't there. The thought that this mature-beyond-her-years politician (and there are silly premises there, too) would somehow fall for the Anakin we see in AOTC, a kid she met when he was 9 and she was 14 and the queen of a whole freakin' planet, is just creepy (cue Weird Al video).

If anything, Anakin's immature for his age, like the emotional equivalent of a 14-year-old just after a growth spurt who has great strength, but no ability to control it, no coordination. Watching him achieve that control and maturity (as Luke does) makes for compelling drama; watching him continually flailing around, never getting the hang of things or growing, isn't. His character arc is, essentially, "he's a jerk, then he's a murderous jerk with lots of power, then he suddenly isn't a jerk for a couple minutes, then he dies, The End".

Why should we care about this guy? I really don't know, and I don't think Lucas has done nearly enough to show us why.


Well, I care about him but I also don't see him as being a jerk. Yours is not the first reaction of this kind, that's for sure. So if someone sees him as a jerk then yeah, I wouldn't expect you or other audience members to care about him. It's just that I don't see him the same way you do. As for why I don't, I've made some comments in the AOTC forum titled "I love Attack of the Clones." :)

stillakid, I seem to remember you questioning the timeline before in another thread awhile back. Correct me if I'm mistaken but I think you have pointed out how relatively insignificant the Empire was in a historical sense because they went for 1000 years with no war before and it's only a few decades until the end of the Empire.

Now rbaumhauer comes along and makes the same observation . . . and I have to say that I totally see what you are both saying. Indeed, in hindsight it really IS an insignificant amount of time. As has been stated already, of course this does not apply to the people living during the Empire's rule.

Yet, I still think it is significant because of the "what if." What if Luke had failed in his quest to turn Vader back to the good side? What if Luke had joined either Palpatine or Vader? It could have meant a much longer time of evil rule.

Errrr, of course ROTJ takes some of this away because Death Star II was going up in flames anyway. Even if Luke turned evil and joined either Palps or Vader, the shield generator was going to be blown up and the station destroyed.

Meh, I guess Luke could have fled with his new master and reestablished control elsewhere. :p

JediTricks
02-02-2004, 01:03 AM
For instance, all of the officers and such that we see in the OT feel to me like men who have only known the Empire - they don't feel to me like men who served in Republic fleets, but more like men who came to power after a purge, and I really don't think that 15-20 years, on the scale of a galaxy (no matter how fast hyperspace travel may be) is enough time for all that to occur.That's a good point. I was going to point out how quickly Hitler's regime, the one that Lucas semi-bases the Galactic Empire upon, came to power and swept through Germany, but even when Hitler was well in control, his officers weren't all simply Nazi killing machines, some had personal issues about what they were doing and even voiced that concern IIRC. As much as Palpatine may have stacked the deck with loyal officers aboard his flag ship, his personal errand boy Vader's Star Destroyer, and his ultimate weapon, it seems hard to believe that NOBODY aboard any of these vessels wouldn't at least have some qualms about what was going on if the Republic was who they served under intially. Yet all we see are officers who are one of three things: cocky, nervous about getting caught, or silent living props; and as much fun as some folks would have giving the latter 2 motivations beyond what's on-screen, that doesn't really excuse what IS on screen, just tries to sweep it up after the fact.

Oh, and Leia & Luke are both supposed to be between around 16 and 18 in ANH, so there's even less time to cover. I don't like the prequel timeline myself either, the twins' age was always a concern to me when we found out during the days leading up to TPM's release that Obi-Wan was barely out of his 40s in ANH.

I agree with you on the 40-50 years estimate for the Empire, that's how it felt to me, like 2 or 3 generations had grown up with that weight upon their shoulders and the galaxy was in the shambles we see in ANH because of 3 generations of being beaten down.

Couldn't agree more about Ani's age in TPM, I've always suspected that Lucas even wrote the character in his early teens and then simply changed it to 9 years old (played by a 7 year old, I might once again add ;)). My 100% different Ep 1 had Ani around 16 in it. As it stands now, Anakin in ROTJ isn't a fallen man, he's an angry boy who never seems to become an adult before turning into a monster, so how is he a changed man at the end of ROTJ when he never really became an adult to begin with?

stillakid
02-02-2004, 10:26 AM
(Hmm, I wrote a post yesterday but it's not here anymore. Any mods know anything about that?)



stillakid, I seem to remember you questioning the timeline before in another thread awhile back. Correct me if I'm mistaken but I think you have pointed out how relatively insignificant the Empire was in a historical sense because they went for 1000 years with no war before and it's only a few decades until the end of the Empire.
I might have, but we've talked about so much stuff that I'm beginning to forget where we've trodden before. :D


Errrr, of course ROTJ takes some of this away because Death Star II was going up in flames anyway. Even if Luke turned evil and joined either Palps or Vader, the shield generator was going to be blown up and the station destroyed.

Meh, I guess Luke could have fled with his new master and reestablished control elsewhere. :p

Because of the way Luke had an actual story arc, he would never have submitted to being Palpatine's patsy no matter what. As JT said, Anakin never grew emotional any further than a bratty kid, so there was really no "fall" as such.

On the other hand, despite claiming to want to leave home, Luke was still a naive farmboy who was afraid to leave the familiar behind. But as the situation unfolded, he was rather forced out of the nest and had to go through a series of struggles that would make him a man. This is the quintessential goal of real humans here on Earth, which is why the OT resonated with audiences beyond the standard sci-fi crowd. Arguably, anyone with enough internal fortitude wants more out of life than to just stay at home and live safely and simply under his/her parent's roof (or in the basement with his toys.)

So while Lucas was busy "mirroring" all the superficial elements of the OT into the Prequels, he forgot to spend any time at all on the most important thing of all: the hero. In this case, the anti-hero, but we are supposed to "feel" for Anakin nonetheless. But, as rbaum pointed out, because Anakin is just a "jerk" from beginning to end (Jake's disjointed version of the character notwithstanding), how can we realistically be expected to think anything of the guy at all? Heck, Al Pacino's Tony Montana was a damn evil guy but at the very least you left the film feeling pity for him or anger towards him. Anakin is being built so sloppily that despite Lucas's attempt to first show us an Anakin pulled from the streets of Mayberry with Jake, it's nigh impossible to really believe that the Jake Anakin and the Hayden Anakin and the OT Vader are all the same person.

JediTricks
02-02-2004, 08:40 PM
Stilla, you sure there's a missing post from yesterday? Might you have this thread confused with the one in the Ep 2 section that has somewhat of a similar flavor? LMK either way.

rbaumhauer
02-05-2004, 08:34 AM
Just realized that there is another point of reference for character ages - Owen and Beru. The difference in the age of the actors playing the characters (at the time of filming) is 33 years for Owen, 36 years for Beru. Honestly, I think the actor in AOTC is playing younger than he is (27), while Beru certainly looks like a teenager (which the actress was).

However, if you look at the official timeline (I found one on the Star Wars Kids site), the events in AOTC took place 22 years before the events of ANH. Does anybody think that Beru appeared to be in her (very) early 40s in ANH? Must be all that hard livin' on Tatooine..............

Kidhuman
02-05-2004, 09:21 AM
Actors are usually older than the characters they portray on screen. In 95% of movies it is this way. Sean Connery is always playing younger people as is Clint Eastwood. They are darn near over the hill and have one food in the grave. An actors age does show, but what can you do, its Hollywood for you.

rbaumhauer
02-05-2004, 12:15 PM
When it comes to "Movie Stars", of course you are correct - MadTV did a hilarious skit a few years ago about Sean Connery wooing (on-screen) co-stars 1/3 his age, and how ridiculous it was.

However, Owen and Beru in ANH were not "glamour" roles, and were not played by Movie Stars. While the actors may have been playing slightly younger, saying that they are playing 10-15 years younger seems like quite a stretch to me - it doesn't really fit the feel of the characters.

Honestly, do Owen and Beru seem like they're in their 40s or their 50s? I'd definitely have to say the latter.

Kidhuman
02-05-2004, 12:21 PM
Beru looks alot older than Owen does. To me it doesnt matter since like you said, they are sub characters, with about 20 minutes screen time between the two of them. Who knows, maybe the hot sun of Tatooine ages them. They didnt have Oil of Olay you know.

rbaumhauer
02-23-2004, 04:01 PM
Yep, I'm dragging this topic back out again :)

Happened upon a bit of information in "Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays" that seems pretty relevant:

When Owen Lars first appears in ANH, the screenplay describes him as "a large burly man in his mid-fifties". So, by my math, the chronology seems to be off by the better part of a decade - either that, or the actors in AotC are playing significantly older than their actual ages (and they certainly don't look it).

George claims to have gone over Eps 4-6 exhaustively while preparing the prequels, so why do the ages of characters who appear in both trilogies seem to be off by about 10 years?

Personally, it still seems to me like he started off telling a much bigger (and, IMNSHO, better) story in ANH, and as each movie was made, the scale of the story got smaller. While the process of shrinking the story started in ESB, the major element (Luke's parentage) is only revealed at the very end of the movie, and so it doesn't seem to effect the story so much. RotJ and the prequels, however, are dominated by story elements which shrink the scale of the story. It's that feeling of real scope that I really miss from the early days of Star Wars, when it seemed a place that was full of possibilities and wonder.

Along with the compression of the story in a thematic sense, Lucas seems to have compressed time, as well, and it seems odd to me that he doesn't seem to have realized that he was doing so. Before anybody says "it's less than 10 years, who cares, close enough", I think that, for the purposes of this topic, those "missing years" are critical aspects of why Anakin doesn't seem like Obi-wan's friend, and why some of us feel that there are major plot issues that keep us from feeling that the prequels really are telling the story of what led to what we see in ANH.

I know, I know, it's "George's baby" and he can do as he pleases, but it's issues like this that make it all feel a bit sloppy, and lead to the feeling that, for all the bright points that the prequels do have, they are far less than they could (and should) have been.

Turambar
02-23-2004, 10:25 PM
I know, I know, it's "George's baby" and he can do as he pleases, but it's issues like this that make it all feel a bit sloppy, and lead to the feeling that, for all the bright points that the prequels do have, they are far less than they could (and should) have been.

In other words: EU.

rbaumhauer
03-08-2004, 11:18 PM
Continuing from "The Annotated Screenplays", it is noted that, in story conferences for ROTJ, it is mentioned that "Luke's father should be in his sixties, about ten years younger than Ben". While this isn't directly quoted to Lucas, there are numerous quotes from him in the book, and he was clearly closely involved in its production.

So, something in the timeline clearly changed between those story meetings and Ep1. While the 10 year difference between Obi-wan and Anakin remains, there is not nearly the same span of time between the events of the prequels and ANH. Why this change was made, I really don't know - I haven't seen any explanations. There's no question, in my opinion, that it changes the feel of the overall saga - as I've said, if the Empire only lasts for 20 years (or less), that feels like a strangely short period of time. It feels "off", plain and simple.

On the question of why Anakin was 9 in TPM, Lucas mentions in "The Making of TPM" that he originally wrote him as 12 years old, but lowered the age to make the separation from his mother more traumatic. He knew that would cause issues with casting, but felt it was worth it. Needless to say, I don't agree - I still think making the character so young in TPM led to major story imbalances and problems.

Also, on a closing point, from reading the Annotated Screenplays, it's impossible to avoid the thought that the Saga wasn't nearly as planned-out as we've assumed (or been led to believe?). For instance, the "twins" are described, in various revisions of the ANH screenplay, as being different ages (Leia 14, Luke 16, etc), and nowhere is it actually said that they are the same age. As near as I can tell, the last time their ages are specifically mentioned in any source, Luke is supposed to be about 20, Leia about 18. Suddenly, though, they're twins!

stillakid
03-09-2004, 07:34 AM
Continuing from "The Annotated Screenplays", it is noted that, in story conferences for ROTJ, it is mentioned that "Luke's father should be in his sixties, about ten years younger than Ben". While this isn't directly quoted to Lucas, there are numerous quotes from him in the book, and he was clearly closely involved in its production.

So, something in the timeline clearly changed between those story meetings and Ep1. While the 10 year difference between Obi-wan and Anakin remains, there is not nearly the same span of time between the events of the prequels and ANH. Why this change was made, I really don't know - I haven't seen any explanations. There's no question, in my opinion, that it changes the feel of the overall saga - as I've said, if the Empire only lasts for 20 years (or less), that feels like a strangely short period of time. It feels "off", plain and simple.

On the question of why Anakin was 9 in TPM, Lucas mentions in "The Making of TPM" that he originally wrote him as 12 years old, but lowered the age to make the separation from his mother more traumatic. He knew that would cause issues with casting, but felt it was worth it. Needless to say, I don't agree - I still think making the character so young in TPM led to major story imbalances and problems.

Also, on a closing point, from reading the Annotated Screenplays, it's impossible to avoid the thought that the Saga wasn't nearly as planned-out as we've assumed (or been led to believe?). For instance, the "twins" are described, in various revisions of the ANH screenplay, as being different ages (Leia 14, Luke 16, etc), and nowhere is it actually said that they are the same age. As near as I can tell, the last time their ages are specifically mentioned in any source, Luke is supposed to be about 20, Leia about 18. Suddenly, though, they're twins!


To quote Han Solo's alter-ego, "I don't know, I'm makin' this up as I go." :D

seanmcfripp
09-09-2005, 12:30 PM
Okay, I know I'm jumping in here really late, but I came here looking for something related to some thoughts I had while looking at some old Star Wars roleplaying books, and this seems like a good place to start.

First, the reason I came to SSG first is because, more than anything else (even the films - only the soundtracks come close), I find that my action figure collection can still make me feel something like the 10-year-old who first became enchanted with Star Wars. These little hunks of painted plastic retain some of the iconography that I responded to so strongly back then - Darth Vader's helmet, the Stormtrooper armor, R2 units, Jawas and their glowing eyes, the sight and sound of a lightsaber, TIE Fighters, Stardestroyers, the Millenium Falcon, Luke's "farm boy" outfit: they all contain "meaning" for me beyond their simple physical representation.

So, the thought that hit me today was this - there is the belief (or hope, in some quarters) that we will see the birth of Luke and Leia in Ep3, and this strikes me as more than a little problematic. Since we know that Luke is supposed to be about 20 in ANH, that would mean that the Empire, as we see it in ANH, would have existed for less than 20 years. Honestly, on the scale of something like a galaxy, 20 years seems like a blip to me, almost inconsequential. Not to the people who lived through it, of course - a lot of damage can be done in 20 years - but it still seems like an awfully short period of time.

Personally, I believed (back when the OT was new) that the Empire had been born out of events that happened 40-50 years before ANH - I'm not sure if that was stated anywhere definitively, but that felt about right to me. The hunting down of the Jedi, and therefore the "turning" of Anakin, would have to have occured *after* the formation of the Empire, not before (as is being shown, I think, in the PT). Anything shorter doesn't feel right to me, for a number of reasons.

For instance, all of the officers and such that we see in the OT feel to me like men who have only known the Empire - they don't feel to me like men who served in Republic fleets, but more like men who came to power after a purge, and I really don't think that 15-20 years, on the scale of a galaxy (no matter how fast hyperspace travel may be) is enough time for all that to occur.

On top of that, I think it would take more than 15-20 years for the public's belief in the Jedi or "the Force" to completely disappear - this would, I think, take at least a couple generations, probably more. By the time of ANH, men like Moti are calling the Force an "ancient religion", but based on the PT, there were swarms of Jedi fighting shoulder-to-shoulder only 25 years before. Folks, "Star Wars" came out over 25 years ago - how would you feel if people were talking about Watergate or Vietnam like it never happened? Wouldn't it feel a bit weird? This sort of thing is only possible if few enough people are still alive to refute the claims - think of the Holocaust for an example, which took place over 60 years ago.

Then there's the problem of other characters' age - Obi-wan, for instance, seems to be well into his sixties in ANH (Guinness was 62 in ANH). However, he seems to be about 20 in TPM, therefore 30 in AOTC, and maybe a couple years older in Ep3, so it would be stretching things to get him even to the age of 60 in ANH. Vader's age, based on how he looks when the helmet comes off in ROTJ, is hard to figure, based on his physical deformities, but he was played by an actor who was near 80 at the time. Certainly, Vader was younger than Kenobi, but how much younger?

So we get, inevitably, back to Lucas' regrettable decision to make Anakin a child in Ep1. For the purposes of this topic, this decision has MAJOR ramifications. If Anakin had been 15 in Ep1, and Obi-wan 20, then I think a case could be made for there being a friendship of the kind implied by Guinness' performance in ANH. However, by making the age disparity so great, there's no way to avoid the relationship feeling more like a strained teacher/pupil. Making Anakin a teenager in Ep1 also gets him into his thirties, perhaps, by Ep3, and plausibly into his 50s in ANH. As it stands, if Anakin is 19 in AOTC, then he's in his early-to-mid 40s in ANH, and that doesn't seem to wash with what we see on screen.

So, I think there are good reasons why Stillakid doesn't see two "good friends" on screen in AOTC - because of the decision to make the age disparity 10 years (or greater), a closer friendship than what is shown seems impossible. If these were characters that had spent their 20s and 30s together, fighting side-by-side, then I could see a real friendship developing. However, as it stands, it appears that Anakin will "fall" in his early 20s, before ever having the opportunity to develop any real depth as a person.

As written, Anakin Skywalker lacks the tragedy that I think Lucas wants him to have, because he doesn't "fall" from any position of true greatness - he's just a talented, hotheaded kid who never attains his potential. He's the equivalent of a hotshot basketball player who blows out his knee halfway through college, with Obi-wan as the young-ish coach who tries to teach him some humility and fails. This is, at its heart, a humdrum story, told every day - tragic, perhaps, on the smallest level, but hardly earth(or galaxy)-shattering.

On the other hand, if we see Anakin first as a teenager, then watch him grow into a man of some depth, then calling his "fall" a tragedy has some weight. If he was trained in his teens and twenties by Obi-wan, and seemed to be a good and decent man during that time (as well as a "cunning warrior"), then his fall hits home in some recognizable way. As Stillakid says, as the PT has been told, Anakin's fall isn't anybody's fault - he's fundamentally flawed (like a poorly-bred puppy), and there's nothing to learn from him.

If Lucas had simply made Anakin a teenager in Ep1, he would have avoided this whole mess. We could then buy Anakin and Obi-wan being "good friends", the relationship with Padme might feel remotely plausible, the characters' ages in the OT might make some sense. However, for reasons clear only to himself, George made the decision he did, and doomed the PT to mediocrity, because the base it was built on was so flimsy and far-fetched. He's given us an Anakin Skywalker that is impossible for audiences to identify with - a poorly-written prodigy (played by a strictly average child actor) in Ep1, and whiny hothead of no real redeeming quality in Ep2.

At the end of ROTJ, the implication was that Anakin Skywalker was a good man who had fallen and been redeemed, but thus far, the PT has comprehensively failed to show anything of the sort. As it stands, tossing the Emperor down the shaft looks like the only really good thing Anakin did in his life, having spent his formative years as nothing but a tool of Palpatine. This is not a character to build 6 movies around, and I don't get why Lucas thinks that he is.

This post should be bumped at least once a month. Everyone needs to read and re-read this, even if you don't agree with the content. Bravo rbaumhauer...would if I could write like this even once.

2-1B
09-09-2005, 01:09 PM
Maybe we should have waited for the trilogy to be completed before havin' this go 'round last year. :D

rbaumhauer
09-09-2005, 01:19 PM
This post should be bumped at least once a month. Everyone needs to read and re-read this, even if you don't agree with the content. Bravo rbaumhauer...would if I could write like this even once.

Thanks!

I have to admit, it's a bit weird reading something I wrote 18 months ago, especially after ROTS has come and gone. I still feel like the points are as valid as they ever were - the whole timeline is off, the relationships between characters and events just don't feel right - but since the Saga is now officially over, I just can't muster the energy to argue it any more.

This is something that is hard to ignore, actually - throughout the world of Star Wars fandom, there is a notable lack of debate pro vs. con on the Prequels and the Saga as a whole since shortly after ROTS came out. RASSM has flat-out died, most of the "debate" topics here have dried up, etc. The only place that I still see real impassioned debate any more is on originaltrilogy.com, mainly because the preservation of the OT is the reason it exists.

Does anybody else feel, like me, a profound lack of interest in going over all of this stuff any more? I saw ROTS (once), didn't hate it, but didn't love it, and ever since, I've felt nothing so much as a profound sense of apathy toward Star Wars in general. I've hardly bought anything - figures, books, nothing - since I saw the movie, and I find that, in general, I just don't care any more.

It's done, it's over, he's wrapped it up, and (imnsho) about two-thirds of it is cr@p. I love that other third with all of the affection that what remains of my 10-year-old self can muster, but in the overall scheme of things, I feel (mostly) like "Star Wars" is something I've pretty much moved on from.

My girlfriend would add, at this point, "Finally!" :)

Rick

stillakid
09-09-2005, 01:48 PM
Thanks!

I have to admit, it's a bit weird reading something I wrote 18 months ago, especially after ROTS has come and gone. I still feel like the points are as valid as they ever were - the whole timeline is off, the relationships between characters and events just don't feel right - but since the Saga is now officially over, I just can't muster the energy to argue it any more.

This is something that is hard to ignore, actually - throughout the world of Star Wars fandom, there is a notable lack of debate pro vs. con on the Prequels and the Saga as a whole since shortly after ROTS came out. RASSM has flat-out died, most of the "debate" topics here have dried up, etc. The only place that I still see real impassioned debate any more is on originaltrilogy.com, mainly because the preservation of the OT is the reason it exists.

Does anybody else feel, like me, a profound lack of interest in going over all of this stuff any more? I saw ROTS (once), didn't hate it, but didn't love it, and ever since, I've felt nothing so much as a profound sense of apathy toward Star Wars in general. I've hardly bought anything - figures, books, nothing - since I saw the movie, and I find that, in general, I just don't care any more.

It's done, it's over, he's wrapped it up, and (imnsho) about two-thirds of it is cr@p. I love that other third with all of the affection that what remains of my 10-year-old self can muster, but in the overall scheme of things, I feel (mostly) like "Star Wars" is something I've pretty much moved on from.

My girlfriend would add, at this point, "Finally!" :)

Rick

Roger that, Rick. :) After ROTS finally came and went along with all the unanswered questions, loose ends, and dangling participles, I felt redeemed in my initial "suspicions" and "conclusions." There is nothing left to "argue" really as the trilogy wrapped itself up with a whimper. No major revelations, no true "tying the trilogies together." Just more gratituous comic book fun. :) Those who choose to like it will always continue to like it and the rest of us who refuse to excuse Lucas will continue to as well.

My toy collecting has even tapered off from the hyper-real levels that it once was. There are other mitigating factors involved so it wouldn't be fair for me to lay blame on an uninspiring Prequel Trilogy completely, but had the Prequels been even half of what the OT was, fandom everywhere would still be going strong instead of fading off into the twin sunset. :love:

JEDIpartner
09-09-2005, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by rbaumhauer
Then there's the problem of other characters' age - Obi-wan, for instance, seems to be well into his sixties in ANH (Guinness was 62 in ANH). However, he seems to be about 20 in TPM, therefore 30 in AOTC, and maybe a couple years older in Ep3, so it would be stretching things to get him even to the age of 60 in ANH. Vader's age, based on how he looks when the helmet comes off in ROTJ, is hard to figure, based on his physical deformities, but he was played by an actor who was near 80 at the time. Certainly, Vader was younger than Kenobi, but how much younger?


Obi-Wan was supposed to be 25 in The Phantom Menace, 35 in Attack of the Clones and 38 in Revenge of the Sith.

rbaumhauer
09-09-2005, 04:25 PM
C'mon JP, you can do better than that :)

My contention, in the case of Obi-wan, is that the character was clearly intended to be somewhere in his late 60s to mid-70s at the time that the OT was made, and this is supported both by what we see in ANH, and notes relating Anakin's appearance at the end of ROTJ to his age in comparison to Obi-wan.

Obi-wan being 5 years older in the PT than I had stated only makes the problem less ridiculous - it certainly doesn't make it go away. If people want to believe that Alec Guiness was supposed to be playing a 58-year-old man in ANH, that's fine, but to me, from a story perspective, it just doesn't jive.

There is still this mysterious "missing decade" hanging around in the Star Wars Saga, but I've long since given up on it ever being acknowledged from certain quarters.

Rick