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View Full Version : Anakin as Vader might NOT be shown in E3 - movie not ruined!



Tycho
11-15-2003, 02:43 AM
In re-reading the spoiler about how there is a Vader awakening scene in which Vader WITHOUT HIS HELMET ON comes to consciousness and then tears the place apart because of the death of Padme - I've realized it might not ruin the 12 hour movie masterpiece just yet.

Without the helmet on does not mean that his face will be showing. Vader wears a MASK under the helmet. I'm not sure what this report means, as language can be imprecise. It's possible Anakin's face (Hayden's) is not shown when Vader awakens.

In the Vader "knighting" scene we've heard about, the name Anakin Skywalker doesn't have to be mentioned at all.

It all has nothing to do with the Death Star Under Construction Scene. That's just Vader as we've always know him.

On second thought: the MODERATOR can combine this thread with my "I think I'm going to hate Episode 3" thread.

2-1B
11-15-2003, 02:50 AM
Tycho, you are now completely desperate and you need HELP. :D
There is no way in hell that it will be left a mystery as to who this character is and WHY he would tear apart the room at the news of Padme's death.

They will show Ani's face going in just as they showed 'Bas Shaw's face coming out. :)

Come on. :crazed:

Tycho
11-15-2003, 04:12 AM
Maybe if General Grevious' mission was to capture Padme, and there is some abiguity as to it being possible that Grevious could be Vader.

The trouble with that is whether Grevious can tap into the Force. He's a Cy-Borg, so perhaps he has some midi-chlorians. They'll have to establish that by giving him some Force-use prior to his demise and possible transformation into Vader.

Why else have them look similar?

I would have gone the route of having Obi-Wan have another apprentice though.

"He was a pupil of mine...who helped the Empire...murdered your father."

Grevious wouldn't have been any pupil of Obi-Wan's unless there is time for a more complicated backstory. But E3 is supposed to be a resolution story :rolleyes:

Anyway, it's possible that they could do both. That way if they wanted to make it ambiguous, there are two people who could have become Vader, instead of Anakin - a 3rd choice the inexperienced viewer is not supposed to pick or even wonder about...

2-1B
11-15-2003, 11:54 AM
If by "inexperienced viewer" you mean "complete idiot", then yes I see how some people could be fooled. :)

Beast
11-15-2003, 12:00 PM
If by "inexperienced viewer" you mean "complete idiot", then yes I see how some people could be fooled. :)
Ouch.....Burn!!! ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

TheDarthVader
11-15-2003, 02:25 PM
What is the big hairy deal? Anakin shown as Vader in inevitable and most people want to see it. Well, at least I do. ( most people want to see it-I could be wrong)...my opinion. I want to see the "making" of Vader!!! This is one scene I have always been looking forward to!! :)

stillakid
11-15-2003, 06:33 PM
In re-reading the spoiler about how there is a Vader awakening scene in which Vader WITHOUT HIS HELMET ON comes to consciousness and then tears the place apart because of the death of Padme - I've realized it might not ruin the 12 hour movie masterpiece just yet.

Without the helmet on does not mean that his face will be showing. Vader wears a MASK under the helmet. I'm not sure what this report means, as language can be imprecise. It's possible Anakin's face (Hayden's) is not shown when Vader awakens.

In the Vader "knighting" scene we've heard about, the name Anakin Skywalker doesn't have to be mentioned at all.

It all has nothing to do with the Death Star Under Construction Scene. That's just Vader as we've always know him.

On second thought: the MODERATOR can combine this thread with my "I think I'm going to hate Episode 3" thread.


I don't think it matters one way or the other what language is used. The problem as I see it is that once Anakin goes down in this infamous duel, having some BRAND NEW evil character show up within minutes (screentime), who just so happens to be wearing a life-support suit, pretty much telegraphs Anakin's new identity. ANY mention or view or anything of Vader in Episode III will automatically destroy the intrigue of Vader's identity that was built so carefully in the OT. It is all for naught anyhow as we already have heard that James Earl Jones will be doing some voice work on Episode III, so it is a foregone conclusion that Lucas intends to pander to the "popular" wish list and toss the Vader thing up there. It's all EU anyhow at this point so it doesn't matter anyway. :)

stillakid
11-15-2003, 06:36 PM
What is the big hairy deal? Anakin shown as Vader in inevitable and most people want to see it.


Maybe there should be a poll. :) But only if I get to write it. :D

plo koon 200
11-15-2003, 06:49 PM
According to a spy report I read Anakin is named Vader after some dialogue with Sidious after killing Windu. This is in a very big dialogue scene where Palps tells Anakin the truth and tells him the Sith are good, blah, blah, blah. Moral to the story. Anakin is named Darth Vader before the great duel even begins. Sorry Tycho.

stillakid
11-16-2003, 01:52 PM
According to a spy report I read Anakin is named Vader after some dialogue with Sidious after killing Windu. This is in a very big dialogue scene where Palps tells Anakin the truth and tells him the Sith are good, blah, blah, blah. Moral to the story. Anakin is named Darth Vader before the great duel even begins. Sorry Tycho.

So, do they go through the "Pick your very own Sith Name" book? Or is it enscribed somewhere on his body, to be found and (trumpets blare) like in the ANNOUNCE R2 D2 scene in TPM: "R2 D2!!!!!" "DARTH, um, what was it, VADER!!!" (Audience applaudes, sneers, fanboys get their momentary jolly.) A rollicking good time will be had by all. Pass the Goo Goo Bees. :)

Tycho
11-16-2003, 04:40 PM
So, do they go through the "Pick your very own Sith Name" book? Or is it enscribed somewhere on his body, to be found and (trumpets blare) like in the ANNOUNCE R2 D2 scene in TPM: "R2 D2!!!!!" "DARTH, um, what was it, VADER!!!" (Audience applaudes, sneers, fanboys get their momentary jolly.) A rollicking good time will be had by all. Pass the Goo Goo Bees. :)

Darth Flusher: the plumber who turned to the Dark Side.

RooJay
11-18-2003, 12:34 AM
The "secret" was already "ruined" back in 1980 at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. It's a good movie. I highly recommend every Star Wars fan see it sometime.

billfremore
11-18-2003, 09:20 AM
It's on my to-do list. :)

I'm still hoping that Lucas has something up his sleeve that will show the uninitiated person that Anakin and Vader are different people.

Yup still hoping.

Hope

Hope

Hope


:stupid:

arctangent
11-18-2003, 09:36 AM
am i missing something here? there are people in outer mongolia and the tribesmen in amazon jungle who know that anakin becomes darth vader. so what exactly is the problem in showing this in the third film?

personally, i would feel cheated if we didn't see darth vader in episode iii. and as the films are the story of anakin skywalker's fall to the dark side and his redemption back to the light i don't see how you could make episode iii and not show anakin's transformation into vader.

and, stillakid, why do you insist on referring to the prequels as 'eu'. i don't think so, seeing as they are written and made by the man who created star wars in the first place.

billfremore
11-18-2003, 10:31 AM
Oh don't go there, that's just begging for trouble if you ask Stilla about his opinion on the prequels :D

The arguement we're having about it is, yes everybody and their dog knows vader is anakin but it would make a better story as a whole is it is not revealed until EP V.

You know keeping the mystery and shock for those future generations that'll watch Star Wars in order of episode number instead of chronological release.

arctangent
11-18-2003, 10:48 AM
You know keeping the mystery and shock for those future generations that'll watch Star Wars in order of episode number instead of chronological release.

sod future generations - i want to see anakin become vader. of course future generations will be watching the films in number order rather than the order in which they were originally made and released, so the revelations that anakin/vader is lukes father and that leia is his twin will be ruined for them too!

billfremore
11-18-2003, 11:04 AM
Actually I'm not thinking of future generations so much as I'm thinking of my own desire to have a well told story with actual plot twists.

I don't really have any desire to see anakin's transformation into vader.

I'm sure all of that will be covered in the EU at some point.

arctangent
11-18-2003, 11:36 AM
Actually I'm not thinking of future generations so much as I'm thinking of my own desire to have a well told story with actual plot twists.

I don't really have any desire to see anakin's transformation into vader.

isn't that the whole point of the films though - how can you appreciate darth vader bringing balance to the force and returning to the light side if you don't see his fall from grace?

Tycho
11-18-2003, 01:05 PM
You will.

1) You'll see Anakin turn to the Dark Side of the Force. That will explain how Vader could exist:

1a) He slaughtered Tuskens for revenge for his mother's death

1b) He married secretly, and his duties and expectations as a husband, were in conflict with his responsibilities as a Jedi

1c) He has been patronized by Palpatine, and grown to admire him and seek his praise.

1d) He will be given great cause to fully turn on the Jedi:

1di) He might regret actions he takes against Dooku - a great twist would be to make him kill Dooku, only to learn the Jedi never told him that Dooku was his father - they really miss the boat if they don't use this.

1dii) He will definitely regret being the cause of Padme's death, accusing her of betraying him to Obi-Wan, who seeks to stop him for avenging himself against the Jedi

1diii) He will kill or attempt to kill Jedi

1e) He will fight a terrible duel with Obi-Wan Kenobi, the result of which apparently KILLS him - after he is already a Dark Jedi, or turned to being hell-bent on revenge (which we may perceive as evil).

1f) Anakin Skywalker - someone who we saw turn to evil, apparently dies. The only thing we don't see, is him choosing a life-support system, or a new wardrobe, and building a red lightsaber.

2) Darth Vader appears on the scene.

2a) He is knighted as a Sith Lord, and given the name Darth Vader by Sidious/Palpatine.

2b) He appears interested in hunting down any chance that Padme survived, or any offspring of Anakin Skywalker.

2c) His identity might be obcsued because other characters like Grevious or a new apprentice of Obi-Wan's, would also know the Old Republic General.

2d) He will admit the war has given him regrets, and he will spare Kenobi's life to take the Skywalker child into exile, as an innocent, and never return to Imperial Space.

2di) Sidious might know of this, and offer him this bargain: Vader's loyalty for eternity, for sparring the life of the Skywalker child, and his chosen protector (Kenobi). "To protect you from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born." - DOES NOT SAY VADER, OR EVEN SIDIOUS, DIDN'T KNOW. Vader makes a deal with the devil: his life for the life of little Skywalker's. A classic myth element.

2e) Darth Vader IS SHOWN IN THE MOVIE. Hayden Christensen can play the role. This is not the same thing as seeing Hayden's face in the uniform, on the screen, during the performance. This is not the same thing of seeing a pre-production photo in the Insider, of Hayden on a set break, obviously wearing the uniform. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT'S WHAT YOU'LL SEE IN THE FILM.

These plot stages DO show how Anakin Skywalker becomes Darth Vader, upon hindsight and reflection on them when you watch ESB and wonder "could Anakin have survived? Would it make sense that if he did live, that he could be Darth Vader?" It should all make sense then, but of course Yoda lays it out in ROTJ when he finally answers Luke's burning question.

ANH still shows Anakin's story, except an ignorant audience wouldn't know that Vader was Anakin.

You guys will love to share SW with your kids and grandkids, and as young children who don't go anywhere without their parents, you will control what they are exposed to, and you can show them the movies in Episode Order, and enjoy that experience you had in 1980, as your children experience it. Kids are old enough to understand SW before they are old enough to go to kindergarten.

You guys that want to see HAYDEN become Vader, will be missing about 2-3 things:

1) What's recovered of Anakin's body - though we might see that put into bacta or another life-support device, just not a black uniform. (possibly WHO recovers him, but not necessarily. He can be a gift to the Sith Lord! -and in hindsight, we know what Sidious does with his new prize).

2) How to dress yourself. If you have trouble putting on black clothing, ask your mom or wife for help. I agree: it's time you learned how to dress yourself.

3) a Six-Million Dollar Man Sequence: "A man barely alive. We have the Technology to Save Him. We can rebuild him. He will be stronger, faster, see farther, than ever before." Anakin-Austin Skywalker is the bionic man! Duh-dah-duh-duh-doo-da, dah-duh-doo-dah-dah-daah- daah-dee-duh-dee-duh....

4) A lightsaber construction sequence - but we're missing that from every SW film anyway.

YOU WILL GET TO SEE DARTH VADER'S BEING NAMED AND KNIGHTED AS A SITH LORD -that's been supposedly confirmed.

stillakid
11-18-2003, 11:31 PM
and, stillakid, why do you insist on referring to the prequels as 'eu'. i don't think so, seeing as they are written and made by the man who created star wars in the first place.


:D It's my own Private Idaho. My way of coping with a series of films which non-chalantly discard continuity and poo-poo the carefully imagined plotlines of the Original Trilogy.

My current feeling is that, while there is no doubt that Anakin does go through some sort of rescue/medical procedure/costume fitting, that particular sequence of activities have no place in the onscreen saga as such a sequence of events will absolutely annihilate any and all of the carefully written intrigue revolving around Vader's identity in the OT films. It is undeniable on anyone's part that those films were written and filmed in such a way as to build the drama as the horrible truth of Luke's origin was slowly revealed to him and to us. "Giving away the farm," as it were, to show "Anakin's transformation" is nothing more than gratuitous pandering to an overeager fanbase. That sequence, while interesting for certain, is better suited to the Expanded Universe arena and doesn't belong in the primary set of films. But as George has pretty much disregarded the well written story of the past anyhow in TPM and AOTC, it doesn't seem to matter much anymore what he does in Episode III. For that reason, the Prequels just can't be seen as honest follow-ups to the original continuity even if viewed in order of production unless he alters the storylines in the OT to be more in line with his new re-imagined saga of the 21st century.

Tycho
11-19-2003, 01:25 AM
This is the part where I disagree with Stillakid. [rolleyes]

Tycho disagrees with Stillakid: Take 20

Quiet on the set!


Lasers and Gamorreans, we last left off where Tycho said Qui-Gon and midichlorians seemlessly fit into the tapestry of the OT films, and Stillakid said they did not.

Tycho: "Yes they do!"

Stillakid: "No the do not!"


Tycho: "Yes they do!"

Stillakid: "No the do not!"

Tycho: "Yes they do!"

Stillakid: "No the do not!"


Tycho: "Yes they do!"

Stillakid: "No the do not!"



Tycho: "Yes they do!"

Stillakid: "No the do not!"


*Note: the author of this thread reprinted these highlights of the two quintessential Star Wars philosophers' discussion points to expediate brevity in reveiwing their respective points, and to allow others to participate in this discussion.

arctangent
11-19-2003, 04:06 AM
:That sequence, while interesting for certain, is better suited to the Expanded Universe arena and doesn't belong in the primary set of films.

sorry stillakid, but who are you to dictate what does and doesn't belong in the primary set of films?

billfremore
11-19-2003, 09:09 AM
He's not dictating, he's just giving his opinion, it's a strong opinion mind you.

He's entitled to hate the prequels as much as I love them.


Oh god.
I'm defending Stilla :eek:

Somebody hold me, it's getting all dark :D

arctangent
11-19-2003, 10:24 AM
He's not dictating, he's just giving his opinion, it's a strong opinion mind you.

He's entitled to hate the prequels as much as I love them.


Oh god.
I'm defending Stilla :eek:

Somebody hold me, it's getting all dark :D

in giving his opinion he shouldn't belittle, demean, put down or infer stupidity and ingnorance in anyone whose opinions do not match his own. as a said before everyone is entitled to their opinion but its how you put your opinions across that matters. stillakid should not be condescending when stating his.

and i really think you ought to go and lie down in a darkened room now, bill.

plo koon 200
11-19-2003, 02:52 PM
Midichlorines... I sitll wonder if they are sperm.

Hmm, the Force is all a mater of the level of sperms one is able to make. This would fit all species, including trees who reproduce, maybe even all those little organisms that are microspic are several things at once.

billfremore
11-19-2003, 11:33 PM
in giving his opinion he shouldn't belittle, demean, put down or infer stupidity and ingnorance in anyone whose opinions do not match his own. as a said before everyone is entitled to their opinion but its how you put your opinions across that matters. stillakid should not be condescending when stating his.

and i really think you ought to go and lie down in a darkened room now, bill.

I will agree that how one's opinions are presented do make a difference. This sort of thing has led to many a arguement between me and Stilla. :)

stillakid
11-20-2003, 12:48 AM
(peeks in quietly) :sur:


sorry stillakid, but who are you to dictate what does and doesn't belong in the primary set of films?

Yeah, like he said, I don't dictate anything. :) I'm sorry you don't like the conclusions I draw from the literary (scripts) and audio/visual (films) evidence, but what would you have me do? Ignore the obvious just so that George's epic can remain squeaky clean in my eyes? I won't make excuses for what he's doing and I won't rationalize away the problems. I won't pretend like George is still at the top of his game. A large majority of "fans" disagreed with many of his "creative choices" in regards to the Special Editions. Whatever his reasons, the "interpretation" by many was that Mr. Lucas had lost his "touch." Add in the time period between the "glory days" of the OT and the Special Editions and a pattern emerges which allows for one to justifiably see fallibility with Lucas and the Prequels. The consistent defense of his choices is a mystery to me.

arctangent
11-20-2003, 04:16 AM
(peeks in quietly) :sur:



Yeah, like he said, I don't dictate anything. :) I'm sorry you don't like the conclusions I draw from the literary (scripts) and audio/visual (films) evidence, but what would you have me do? Ignore the obvious just so that George's epic can remain squeaky clean in my eyes? I won't make excuses for what he's doing and I won't rationalize away the problems. I won't pretend like George is still at the top of his game. A large majority of "fans" disagreed with many of his "creative choices" in regards to the Special Editions. Whatever his reasons, the "interpretation" by many was that Mr. Lucas had lost his "touch." Add in the time period between the "glory days" of the OT and the Special Editions and a pattern emerges which allows for one to justifiably see fallibility with Lucas and the Prequels. The consistent defense of his choices is a mystery to me.

the way you put your opinions across seems like you are dictating to the rest of us. i am reletively new to this forum so please can you point out some of the conlusions you have come to which you have drawn from the literary scripts and the audio visual evidence? i am fascinated to find out what they are.

i probably won't like them though because i prefer the 'special editions' to the originals and i also like the phantom menace and attack of the clones. i was eleven when i saw star wars when it first came out and the world of films and film making has moved on considerably since then. many people view the original trilogy through rose tinted spectacles. i am also fairly happy to accept what george lucas does with the story and the prequels. it is his story after all. of course if you dislike it so much perhaps you should write your own.

stillakid
11-20-2003, 11:35 AM
the way you put your opinions across seems like you are dictating to the rest of us. i am reletively new to this forum so please can you point out some of the conlusions you have come to which you have drawn from the literary scripts and the audio visual evidence? i am fascinated to find out what they are..
Well, I suppose in a way I am dictating to those who refuse to believe what is right in front of them. I evaluate the films one way or the other, somebody doesn't want to agree (for a variety of reasons), so they take the negative viewpoint that I'm "dictating." I can't control how others react to being shown how their hobby is fallible. I'm just a messenger. One of many I might add.

Anyhow, just a smattering of the conclusions I've drawn include:

From ANH: relatively flawless in terms of plot development and character arcs. But given that it was the first film, it established the initial continuity that all the other films had to follow.

From ANH Special Edition: Greedo firing first is a mistake on a couple of counts. First, technically, it was a poor "fix." Greedo's gun was pointed right at Han's chest. There is no way he could have missed. Second, George's reasoning for making the change is flawed. He was afraid that Han would be seen as a cold blooded killer (despite the fact that Greedo was about to wax him). But Han was a rogue kind of guy. It fit perfectly well with the character he was that early in the story. Removing that bit of "wild west" mentality from him reduces the character arc greatly.

From ESB: Again, not much to talk about. The one corner they painted themselves into was in how to get the Falcon to Bespin without hyperdrive within a reasonable amount of time. A little artistic license allowed them to gloss over it so that hopefully no one would notice.

From ESB Special Edition: Luke screaming down the shaft was a mistake. It robs him of his courageous decision to (apparently) die rather than take his father's hand. Instead, he screams like a frightened little girl. Look at a character like William Wallace in Braveheart (played by Mel Gibson) as an example of someone who takes the pain of a tough decision like a hero should.

From ROTJ: Look, I don't have too much trouble with it myself, but ROTJ does begin to skew on the kiddie-cartoony side. I do believe that Lucas began adopting children by this point in his life, so we can begin to see how this parenthood thing is beginning to effect the films he is making.

From ROTJ Special Edition: Aside from some of the CG characters in Jabba's Palace still not looking very "real," I personally didn't mind those kinds of changes, primarily because they weren't "plot killers."

From TPM: Where to begin. The character of Qui Gon should have been eliminated altogether. Old Ben clearly states his history with Anakin, yet the character of Qui Gon takes away all of that from him. Midichlorians were inserted into the saga as a cheap and easy way to tell the audience just how much potential Anakin was to have. It was unnecessary and demeans the way we were meant to understand the Force as described throughout the OT.

From AOTC: We're being asked to believe that the entire reason that Anakin succumbs to the darkside is because he is a big baby who isn't getting his way, whatever that is. What this means is that Obi Wan didn't fail to train Anakin properly, but that Anakin is just a victim of arrested development and still behaves like he is a 4 year old, lashing out at his "parent" (Obi Wan) and throwing temper tantrums (Tuskens).

You disagree with any or all of that?

Beast
11-20-2003, 01:40 PM
Well, I suppose in a way I am dictating to those who refuse to believe what is right in front of them. I evaluate the films one way or the other, somebody doesn't want to agree (for a variety of reasons), so they take the negative viewpoint that I'm "dictating." I can't control how others react to being shown how their hobby is fallible. I'm just a messenger. One of many I might add.
No, you're dictating to others because they evaluate the films in a different manner then you do. We arn't refusing to see anything, we just have a different take on the evidence that is presented. It's all opinions, from evidence presented in the film. And the only person who's opinion is fact is Lucas, and the audio commentaries for TPM and AOTC's delve a lot into his ideas.

Anyhow, just a smattering of the conclusions I've drawn include:

From ANH: relatively flawless in terms of plot development and character arcs. But given that it was the first film, it established the initial continuity that all the other films had to follow.

From ANH Special Edition: Greedo firing first is a mistake on a couple of counts. First, technically, it was a poor "fix." Greedo's gun was pointed right at Han's chest. There is no way he could have missed. Second, George's reasoning for making the change is flawed. He was afraid that Han would be seen as a cold blooded killer (despite the fact that Greedo was about to wax him). But Han was a rogue kind of guy. It fit perfectly well with the character he was that early in the story. Removing that bit of "wild west" mentality from him reduces the character arc greatly.
Other then the fact there's no evidence to the existance of Yoda. Or proof that Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker. Or proof that Luke and Leia are twins. If you want to argue semantics, according to the way you've been arguing about Qui-Gon's existance due to evidence in the OT. Yoda shouldn't exist in ESB, Darth Vader shouldn't be Luke and Leia's father. And again, Luke and Leia shouldn't be related. And Emperor Palpatine shouldn't be a Sith Lord. Since nothing in ANH presents those ideas in the film. As for the Greedo firing first, sure it's universally reguarded as the worst thing about the entire saga. But I can see his reasonings for it. Not to mention he's even said it was always the plan to have Greedo's blaster fire just before Han's did. But there was issues with the way it was shot. And they just dropped that idea. Until he tried to fix it in the SE's. But it didn't come off as well as it could have been done. Because we've accepted that Han blew Greedo away for just some words. Yes, Greedo is threatening him. But there's no evidence that he really meant what he was saying. After all, all he says is that 'Jabba may just take his ship', which Han replies 'Over my dead body', and Greedo replies 'That's the idea'.

From ESB: Again, not much to talk about. The one corner they painted themselves into was in how to get the Falcon to Bespin without hyperdrive within a reasonable amount of time. A little artistic license allowed them to gloss over it so that hopefully no one would notice.

From ESB Special Edition: Luke screaming down the shaft was a mistake. It robs him of his courageous decision to (apparently) die rather than take his father's hand. Instead, he screams like a frightened little girl. Look at a character like William Wallace in Braveheart (played by Mel Gibson) as an example of someone who takes the pain of a tough decision like a hero should.
We're not told how long it takes the Falcon to limp to Bespin. Clearly Luke spends quite a long time on Dagobah, during which time it's limping there the whole time. There's no artistic license taken, they just don't pop up a subtitle on the screen that says 'Six Months Later', or whatever. It's fine. Sorry Stillakid. Look at the image as he falls. His mouth is wide open in a scream, as he decends. It's clear to me that there was a scream intended as he falls. Why else would he have his mouth wide-open. I never noticed Luke being a mouth breather anywhere else in the film. Or was he expected Vader to get out the fishing pole and maybe hook him on the way down. Or catch himself on an outcropping with his mouth. You can't compare William Wallace to Luke Skywalker. Luke's a whiny lil bastard until ROTJ. And even then some.

From ROTJ: Look, I don't have too much trouble with it myself, but ROTJ does begin to skew on the kiddie-cartoony side. I do believe that Lucas began adopting children by this point in his life, so we can begin to see how this parenthood thing is beginning to effect the films he is making.
From ROTJ Special Edition: Aside from some of the CG characters in Jabba's Palace still not looking very "real," I personally didn't mind those kinds of changes, primarily because they weren't "plot killers."
It's not like Yoda wasn't somewhat kiddie-cartoon. He was a muppet, and something a lot of critics back in the day blasted the movie about. About destroying a perfectly good first movie, with an awful sequel. You'll remember the reviews that I posted for ESB here in the past. About Yoda being a terrible addition to the film, tearing down the seriousness that was presented in ANH.

From TPM: Where to begin. The character of Qui Gon should have been eliminated altogether. Old Ben clearly states his history with Anakin, yet the character of Qui Gon takes away all of that from him. Midichlorians were inserted into the saga as a cheap and easy way to tell the audience just how much potential Anakin was to have. It was unnecessary and demeans the way we were meant to understand the Force as described throughout the OT.
Qui-Gon is a perfectly fine character, that does nothing to negate anything that was said in any of the previous films. Obi-Wan never says that he found Anakin, just that when he first knew him, he was already a great pilot. Which is true, when he first meets Anakin, he's already a great pilot. And that he was suprised at how strongly the force was with him. His amazement at the midiclorian count also shows this. As does his comments that Anakin has great skill, in AOTC's. Qui-Gon does nothing to change the story, or anything presented in ANH, ESB, or ROTJ.

From AOTC: We're being asked to believe that the entire reason that Anakin succumbs to the darkside is because he is a big baby who isn't getting his way, whatever that is. What this means is that Obi Wan didn't fail to train Anakin properly, but that Anakin is just a victim of arrested development and still behaves like he is a 4 year old, lashing out at his "parent" (Obi Wan) and throwing temper tantrums (Tuskens).

You disagree with any or all of that?
Obi-Wan is clearly to hard on himself. Anakin has emotional problems. He was to old to be trained, and the council and Yoda were right. He shouldn't have been trained. But Obi-Wan, in honor of his old master was demanding the council for the right to train Anakin. And since he did just kill a Sith Lord, and show his quality to the council, they decided that he wouldn't screw it up. That's why I've said it's not just Obi-Wan's fault for the fall of Anakin. It's the council for even allowing his training in the first place.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
11-20-2003, 11:35 PM
Other then the fact there's no evidence to the existance of Yoda. Or proof that Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker. Or proof that Luke and Leia are twins. If you want to argue semantics, according to the way you've been arguing about Qui-Gon's existance due to evidence in the OT. Yoda shouldn't exist in ESB, Darth Vader shouldn't be Luke and Leia's father. And again, Luke and Leia shouldn't be related. And Emperor Palpatine shouldn't be a Sith Lord. Since nothing in ANH presents those ideas in the film.
Oh for crying out loud, you are kidding, right? I'm not even sure how to approach this without sounding condescending, but in this case you're really asking for it. But I'll give it my best shot anyhow...

See, number 1 comes before number 2, and number 3 comes after number 2. That is a linear continuity. Follow me so far? Okay, so George creates a story and releases it in 1977. It establishes a whole lot of things yet stands on it's own, beholden to nothing, for nothing came before. It does well so he decides to continue the story. For story events which occur after the events in his first episode, the continuity must be consistent from what he established in the first. For instance, Luke Skywalker is a boy in ANH. If he suddenly became a female in ESB, then that continuity would be in error. Adding new elements is not a continuity problem so long as they do not conflict with the established continuity of the story that has been released previously. So something like a new character, be it Lando or Yoda or the Rancor, is perfectly fine just as long as the information which came before their introduction in no way would have denied the possibility of their existence. For instance, if ANH established somehow that little green elves were impossible in this galaxy, then yeah, Yoda would suddenly be a continuity error. Same with Lando. Say perhaps that ANH established that there were only white people and lizard aliens in this galaxy. Then suddenly having Lando walk out would be an error.

Now let's hypothetically say that during the ESB, Lando tells us a little about his past, say he lost the Falcon to Solo while gambling. Let's also say hypothetically that in Episode III, we'll see that Solo actually purchased the Falcon new off the dealer's lot after getting the manufacturer's rebate. So, despite the fact that Episode III is prior to ESB in the story timeline, the established continuity from the story is that Han won her "fair and square" from Lando. So suddenly we've got a huge problem. Either Han bought the Falcon or he won it. Which is correct? Well, the ESB version by definition is correct and the Episode III version in incorrect. This is the exact same situation we have with the issue of Qui Gon Jinn in the Prequels.

When delving into story events which occur prior to any and all events which have already been established, then the new episodes are still beholden to the established continuity regardless of their place in the story timeline.

Anyway, to follow through, the point you bring up is Qui Gon. Specifically, the established continuity (in the OT) tells us that Obi Wan was taught by Yoda. If you choose to "interpret" it that way ;) , then the character of Qui Gon Jinn conflicts with said established continuity. However, people like you choose to "interpret" away the established continuity so that the existence of Qui Gon is not a continuity error at all. That's ultimately the point of contention...how much wiggle room does the individual choose to give Lucas to make it all work harmoniously? My argument is simply that if one admits that it takes wiggle room in the first place, then by definition, the continuity has been compromised. But you (and others) continue to believe that no rationalization is necessary whatsoever to keep the continuity alive. I disagree and will continue to do so forever.


As for the Greedo firing first, sure it's universally reguarded as the worst thing about the entire saga. But I can see his reasonings for it. Not to mention he's even said it was always the plan to have Greedo's blaster fire just before Han's did. But there was issues with the way it was shot. And they just dropped that idea. Until he tried to fix it in the SE's. But it didn't come off as well as it could have been done. Because we've accepted that Han blew Greedo away for just some words. Yes, Greedo is threatening him. But there's no evidence that he really meant what he was saying. After all, all he says is that 'Jabba may just take his ship', which Han replies 'Over my dead body', and Greedo replies 'That's the idea'.
Yes, I see his stated reasonings for the change too, but like I said before, they aren't good reasons even if they are his own. Believe me, authors can make mistakes in their own works and sometimes you might hear one of them admit it. Beyond that, I've also heard George's attempt to explain that it was always his intention, but frankly, after hearing the "evidence" and evaluating it against my own experience on a multitude of movie sets, I think he's lying.


We're not told how long it takes the Falcon to limp to Bespin. Clearly Luke spends quite a long time on Dagobah, during which time it's limping there the whole time. There's no artistic license taken, they just don't pop up a subtitle on the screen that says 'Six Months Later', or whatever. It's fine.
6 months to get across the vastness of space is unlikely, even in sci-fi fantasy land. Heck, that asteroid field couldn't have been too far away from Hoth when it comes down to it. So given that, one could reasonably expect that the "Lando System" would be a good few lifetimes away without hyperdrive.


Sorry Stillakid. Look at the image as he falls. His mouth is wide open in a scream, as he decends. It's clear to me that there was a scream intended as he falls. Why else would he have his mouth wide-open. I never noticed Luke being a mouth breather anywhere else in the film. Or was he expected Vader to get out the fishing pole and maybe hook him on the way down. Or catch himself on an outcropping with his mouth. You can't compare William Wallace to Luke Skywalker. Luke's a whiny lil bastard until ROTJ. And even then some.
Horsehockey. Give me a line by line chart which illustrates Luke's propensity to be a "whiny lil bastard" throughout the entire trilogy. Fact is, he really "whined", oh, all of about one time early on in ANH when he said "But I was going into Toshe station..."

But more to the point, let's assume for a second that Luke originally did scream when he fell. Clearly the editors and George made the conscious choice to remove the scream for the original release. Most likely for pretty good reasons. So why reinstate it? It has no purpose and only introduces the "girlyman" element to the character that I suggested above.



Qui-Gon is a perfectly fine character, that does nothing to negate anything that was said in any of the previous films. Obi-Wan never says that he found Anakin, just that when he first knew him, he was already a great pilot. Which is true, when he first meets Anakin, he's already a great pilot. And that he was suprised at how strongly the force was with him. His amazement at the midiclorian count also shows this. As does his comments that Anakin has great skill, in AOTC's. Qui-Gon does nothing to change the story, or anything presented in ANH, ESB, or ROTJ.
Well, yes it does, but no point in going round and round about that again.



Obi-Wan is clearly to hard on himself. Anakin has emotional problems. He was to old to be trained, and the council and Yoda were right. He shouldn't have been trained. But Obi-Wan, in honor of his old master was demanding the council for the right to train Anakin. And since he did just kill a Sith Lord, and show his quality to the council, they decided that he wouldn't screw it up. That's why I've said it's not just Obi-Wan's fault for the fall of Anakin. It's the council for even allowing his training in the first place.

You finally say something that makes a little bit of sense. Except that "the council" didn't decide squat...Yoda did. But why it was agreed to is unknown really. Your statements above are pure conjecture. May be true, may not be. But we still have a situation in which Obi Wan A) didn't really witness Anakin's Force ability enough to be "amazed" at it, B) agreed with the Council in that Anakin shouldn't be trained, C) reluctantly agrees to train the kid yet still shows his ambivalence deep into AOTC, and D) trains a kid who is essentially immature in his personal relationships which ultimately is the cause of his darkside seduction, not some failure on the teacher's part.

Obi Wan saw the trouble with Anakin in AOTC, tried to stop it to some extent, but was shrugged off by Yoda with some flippant comment about "arrogance" or something.

Beast
11-21-2003, 12:09 AM
Yes, but that's what I'm trying to point out to you. Because it works both ways. Just because Luke never again mentions Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen, after they die. Doesn't mean that they couldn't exist in ANH. Just as Obi-Wan never mentioning Qui-Gon after he dies, doesn't mean he can't exist in the prequels. He as no revelenace to the current plot. So why bother to mention him. Obi-Wan never sits and tells Luke everything that happens before Luke was born. So why can things never mentioned, not happen or exist.

And yes, Luke whines a lot. Up until ROTJ. He even whines to Yoda some in ESB. But he's grown up some, he's not the whiny lil brat that he was 3 years earlier. The responsability of being in the Rebellion and growing up has mellowed him. But he's still rash and somewhat emotional. The only so-called evidence against Qui-Gon, is the fact that Obi-Wan says Yoda trained him.

Get this, he did train him. He trained him up until he was a Padawan. And then he was taken by Qui-Gon to have his training completed. Just because Obi-Wan doesn't mention someone, who can't help train Luke anyway, doesn't mean they never existed. We never see the Jedi's in their prime in the OT. Just hear some vague mentions of them from Obi-Wan, Yoda, Vader, Sidious, and Tarkin.

So again, Qui-Gon only conflicts what you infer from Obi-Wan. But Obi-Wan never states that he wasn't trained by anyone else. Just as noone mentions Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen, but they clearly existed and helped raise Luke. So what's the difference here. It's based on on-screen evidence in both our cases. There is no evidence that absolutly rules out either opinion. And since Lucas has stated with the prequels and with the DVD, the exact same things, it would appear to be the correct interpretation.

And yes, sound effects can be very easily forgotten in a film. It's happened before with other movies. Where a sound effect or a special effect is missing. Like coloring vader's saber red when he's heading for the blast door. It's meant to be red, because it's ignited. Luke's mouth is wide-open, I would assume that he was meant to be definatly screaming. Unless again, he's become a mouth breather or was waiting for Vader with the fishhook. :)

Actually, yes the council did. They wanted to approve the training of Anakin, and Yoda while he was against it, finally agreed. He even makes statements to the effect at the end of TPM. It's not conjecture, it's onscreen evidence. Confer on you the title of Jedi Knight, the council does. But agree with you taking this boy as your padawan learner, I do not. The council agreed to it, Yoda was the one with the final say. He knew that Obi-Wan would defy the choice, if Yoda said no. So he allowed him to train him.

You're arguing semantics and it's tiring. You have your opinions, and I have mine. We both believe our opinions are correct. No ammount of debate will change our opinions. So there's no sense continuing. You hate the prequels, fine. Enjoy that. I'll continue to enjoy them, alongside the other fans that don't feel a need to nitpick little details. That see the movies as just as good, or better then the OT. I know TPM is tons better then ANH, both in acting and plot. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

TheDarthVader
11-21-2003, 01:13 AM
Let me just sqeeze myself in here for just a second and say...I love the prequels...the prequels are better than the OT. :) DISCLAIMER: MY OPINION. THIS IS NOT OFFENSIVE OR FACT.

2-1B
11-21-2003, 03:31 AM
From AOTC: We're being asked to believe that the entire reason that Anakin succumbs to the darkside is because he is a big baby who isn't getting his way, whatever that is. What this means is that Obi Wan didn't fail to train Anakin properly, but that Anakin is just a victim of arrested development and still behaves like he is a 4 year old, lashing out at his "parent" (Obi Wan) and throwing temper tantrums (Tuskens).

You disagree with any or all of that?

"temper tantrums" ? :confused:

For Christ's sake, the guy's mother was murdered. MURDERED. :stupid:
God forbid if that ever happens to any of us, but personally if my mother is ever murdered and I show some emotion, well just realize how insulted I would feel if you accused me of throwing a tantrum. ;)

No offense stillakid, but you've taken so much time to point out how flawed these new films are but you seem so unaware as to what's really going on with Anakin. The whole idea behind the Tuskens sequence is that Anakin possesses great power. His mom is murdered and he gives in to his desire to secure vengeance/justice. Just because he COULD kill them does not mean that he SHOULD kill them. It has to do with power and the responsibility that comes with it. Instead of coping and learning to let go, he resorts to revenge killing.

No, we are not "being asked to believe that the entire reason that Anakin succumbs to the darkside is because he is a big baby who isn't getting his way, whatever that is."
SO FAR, what we've seen is that Anakin is succumbing to the darkside because he used his abilities for wrong and not right. That's the empathetic part of AOTC that I love. Anakin started to turn because of how he reacted to his mother's death. I can sympathize with him because who WOULDN'T want to kill every one of those Tuskens? :confused: I know I would. :evil:
I also know it would be wrong and I hope I wouldn't give in to my desire but then again the temptation would be great. So while it was not right of Anakin to kill them, I can understand why he would. :)

If you are content to write off all of that good stuff in AOTC as him just being a "big baby", so be it. :D




Horsehockey. Give me a line by line chart which illustrates Luke's propensity to be a "whiny lil bastard" throughout the entire trilogy. Fact is, he really "whined", oh, all of about one time early on in ANH when he said "But I was going into Toshe station..."

FAR from fact. :rolleyes:
Luke whines like an absolute ***** through most of the Yoda ESB sequences. "Hey, that's my dinner!", "Why can't we go to Yoda now?", "Ben, WHAAAAAAAAAAA Ben WHAAAAAAAAAAA I am ready, tell him." for example. :D

arctangent
11-21-2003, 05:35 AM
Well, I suppose in a way I am dictating to those who refuse to believe what is right in front of them. I evaluate the films one way or the other, somebody doesn't want to agree (for a variety of reasons), so they take the negative viewpoint that I'm "dictating." I can't control how others react to being shown how their hobby is fallible. I'm just a messenger. One of many I might add.

Anyhow, just a smattering of the conclusions I've drawn include:

From ANH: relatively flawless in terms of plot development and character arcs. But given that it was the first film, it established the initial continuity that all the other films had to follow.

From ANH Special Edition: Greedo firing first is a mistake on a couple of counts. First, technically, it was a poor "fix." Greedo's gun was pointed right at Han's chest. There is no way he could have missed. Second, George's reasoning for making the change is flawed. He was afraid that Han would be seen as a cold blooded killer (despite the fact that Greedo was about to wax him). But Han was a rogue kind of guy. It fit perfectly well with the character he was that early in the story. Removing that bit of "wild west" mentality from him reduces the character arc greatly.

don't disagree with any of that.


From ESB: Again, not much to talk about. The one corner they painted themselves into was in how to get the Falcon to Bespin without hyperdrive within a reasonable amount of time. A little artistic license allowed them to gloss over it so that hopefully no one would notice.

From ESB Special Edition: Luke screaming down the shaft was a mistake. It robs him of his courageous decision to (apparently) die rather than take his father's hand. Instead, he screams like a frightened little girl. Look at a character like William Wallace in Braveheart (played by Mel Gibson) as an example of someone who takes the pain of a tough decision like a hero should.

the bespin thing? who cares. not everything has to be explained and the amount of time taken to get there is not mentioned. Luke screaming? well when a person falls a long way, they scream. natural human reaction.


From ROTJ: Look, I don't have too much trouble with it myself, but ROTJ does begin to skew on the kiddie-cartoony side. I do believe that Lucas began adopting children by this point in his life, so we can begin to see how this parenthood thing is beginning to effect the films he is making.

From ROTJ Special Edition: Aside from some of the CG characters in Jabba's Palace still not looking very "real," I personally didn't mind those kinds of changes, primarily because they weren't "plot killers."

again no arguments there but you are not really saying anything controversial here.


From TPM: Where to begin. The character of Qui Gon should have been eliminated altogether. Old Ben clearly states his history with Anakin, yet the character of Qui Gon takes away all of that from him. Midichlorians were inserted into the saga as a cheap and easy way to tell the audience just how much potential Anakin was to have. It was unnecessary and demeans the way we were meant to understand the Force as described throughout the OT.

can't agree with that. it is established that jedi have padawan learners, therefore at some point obi wan must have been a padawan - which is what we see. i fail to see how this takes away old ben's stated history with anakin. midichlorians may have been a storyline tool. so what?


From AOTC: We're being asked to believe that the entire reason that Anakin succumbs to the darkside is because he is a big baby who isn't getting his way, whatever that is. What this means is that Obi Wan didn't fail to train Anakin properly, but that Anakin is just a victim of arrested development and still behaves like he is a 4 year old, lashing out at his "parent" (Obi Wan) and throwing temper tantrums (Tuskens).

it doesn't matter that it wasn't obi wans failure in reality. he obviously felt that he had failed in some way. again, a human emotion. everyday people feel emotions about situations that may not necessarily be right, but it doesn't stop them feeling the way they do.


You disagree with any or all of that?

as you can see, i disagree with some agree with some but again its all just points of view.

arctangent
11-21-2003, 06:05 AM
Anyway, to follow through, the point you bring up is Qui Gon. Specifically, the established continuity (in the OT) tells us that Obi Wan was taught by Yoda. If you choose to "interpret" it that way ;) , then the character of Qui Gon Jinn conflicts with said established continuity. However, people like you choose to "interpret" away the established continuity so that the existence of Qui Gon is not a continuity error at all. That's ultimately the point of contention...how much wiggle room does the individual choose to give Lucas to make it all work harmoniously? My argument is simply that if one admits that it takes wiggle room in the first place, then by definition, the continuity has been compromised. But you (and others) continue to believe that no rationalization is necessary whatsoever to keep the continuity alive. I disagree and will continue to do so forever.

in aotc we see yoda training young padawans when obi wan is looking for his ‘missing planet’. it is not unreasonable to assume that yoda has a hand in training some or all jedi padawans. therefore obi wan was trained by yoda when he was a young child at the jedi academy. he sends luke to be trained by yoda on dagobah. he obviously knows yoda is still alive. there would be no point in mentioning qui gon in connection with this. qui gon is dead and cannot help train luke but this does not discount the possibility that obi wan was trained by someone other than yoda as well.



6 months to get across the vastness of space is unlikely, even in sci-fi fantasy land. Heck, that asteroid field couldn't have been too far away from Hoth when it comes down to it. So given that, one could reasonably expect that the "Lando System" would be a good few lifetimes away without hyperdrive.

we see han looking for somewhere within reach to get the falcon repaired. therefore it doesn’t really matter how long it takes them to get there. we know it is within reach. we don't know how far bespin is and how fast the sublight engines go, so who knows?


Horsehockey. Give me a line by line chart which illustrates Luke's propensity to be a "whiny lil bastard" throughout the entire trilogy. Fact is, he really "whined", oh, all of about one time early on in ANH when he said "But I was going into Toshe station..."

luke whines through his initial meeting with yoda (when yoda is going through the boxes of equipment from the x-wing, for example) and most of his training too.


You finally say something that makes a little bit of sense. Except that "the council" didn't decide squat...Yoda did.

we do not see the decision making process on screen. we see yoda deliver the decision to obi wan that anakin is to be trained. that does not mean he made it unilaterally. there is no evidence for that. he does not state that it is his decision alone. therefore who made the decision is conjecture.

remember, these are only my points of view. no one else has to agree with them.

2-1B
11-22-2003, 02:19 AM
I think William Wallace is a bad comparison to ESB Luke because even without the SE scream, Luke is NOTHING like Wallace. :D

He's more Wallace-esque in ROTJ but it's still a stretch IMO. :)

stillakid
11-22-2003, 01:05 PM
Yes, but that's what I'm trying to point out to you. Because it works both ways. Just because Luke never again mentions Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen, after they die. Doesn't mean that they couldn't exist in ANH. Just as Obi-Wan never mentioning Qui-Gon after he dies, doesn't mean he can't exist in the prequels. He as no revelenace to the current plot. So why bother to mention him. Obi-Wan never sits and tells Luke everything that happens before Luke was born. So why can things never mentioned, not happen or exist.
No, it doesn't work both ways. The hang up here is the difference between "story time" and "creation time." Yes, if looked at in story time, then you've got an argument. But George didn't create these in episode order. He established a large variety of things starting with ANH. In fact, the continuity begins with the opening shot of the first film. EVERYTHING that follows builds on that shot. Even as new items and characters are introduced, they are beholden to the shots that preceded them, EVEN IF they occur before those events in storytime. So the first shot we see is the Blockade Runner zooming across the screen. So in the very next cut, if that ship changed at all, say to a Cheeseburger getting shot at by the Star Destroyer, then the continuity would be blown right away. That's an easy one, but admittedly, spotting errors gets more difficult when you delve into plot points and character arcs and such. So even though George's tale includes story events which precede the events in ANH, these "historical" events must still follow the established continuity of the episodes which were created and released to the world first.


Actually, yes the council did. They wanted to approve the training of Anakin, and Yoda while he was against it, finally agreed. He even makes statements to the effect at the end of TPM. It's not conjecture, it's onscreen evidence. Confer on you the title of Jedi Knight, the council does. But agree with you taking this boy as your padawan learner, I do not. The council agreed to it, Yoda was the one with the final say. He knew that Obi-Wan would defy the choice, if Yoda said no. So he allowed him to train him.
I'm going to skip a few of those things because they are old trodden arguments, but I'd like to address this one quickly. In the scene, Yoda expresses his concern over the training of Anakin (at the very end of the film). Obi basically tells him to shove it. After a brief pause, Yoda tells him to go ahead and uses the "council agrees" statement. Now, unless he was using telepathy, it was clearly Yoda who was making that decision and, in a show of how much ego he has, illustrated that he believed he was "the council." That's the scene.


You're arguing semantics and it's tiring. You have your opinions, and I have mine. We both believe our opinions are correct. No ammount of debate will change our opinions. So there's no sense continuing. You hate the prequels, fine. Enjoy that. I'll continue to enjoy them, alongside the other fans that don't feel a need to nitpick little details. That see the movies as just as good, or better then the OT. I know TPM is tons better then ANH, both in acting and plot. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

I'm not arguing semantics. I'm arguing based on literary comprehension skills, which at times, may seem like "nitpicking." Maybe it is, but the devil is in the details and sometimes problems aren't front and center and easy to notice. It may take a little digging to find them or define them, but it doesn't mean that they are simply a matter of "semantics" or "opinion." Contrary to what you state above, I don't know that my opinions are correct, however I do know that the facts I present are correct. And the problem is that you want to deny the facts because they interfere with your own chosen opinions. But this isn't about you, this happens to everybody, even me. Oftentimes is much easier to ignore uncomfortable truths in life (about important stuff too, not these silly movie discussions) than face them head on. Life is hard enough without having to deal with "semantics."

In terms of enjoyment, that is and remains to be a choice for all of us to make individually. That's never been a topic of contention. But I want to cut and paste my recent response from another thread to better sum up my feelings on this:


You are entirely correct in saying that any one thing can be viewed from a variety of different points of view, whether it be a scene in a film or the definition of a word.

What I'm getting at is that while there may be 2 or a hundred possible "definitions" or "interpretations," typically only one (1) is correct within the given context of its usage.

So, while one might look at that "attitude" sentence and clearly see JJB's actual meaning, I facetiously was taking your side and implying that ALL the available definitions are valid, when clearly they are not.

In the same way, one might look at this issue of whether Obi Wan was lying in ANH and suggest that he was or was not, while arguments can be made for both, only one true possibility exists. Clearly, the only way to really know for certain which is the true point of view is to ask George, or Willard Huyck or Gloria Katz, but because that option is not readily available to us, we are forced to look at and evaluate the material itself. And I use the term evaluate in exactly the sense you implied earlier. Certain events and statements are quantifiable within the context of the entire story in order to lead to the most likely conclusion. I think that you are assuming that I haven't at least considered the other options (regarding many of the "controversial" questions) before reaching my conclusions, but I indeed have. Often times, they can be dismissed rather quickly, at others it might take a little more "nitpicking" as JJB likes to call it.

Either way, I know that most writers attempt to say very specific things with their work and to imply that everything said and done is open for valid interpretation by those who read (or see) it is just incorrect. The viewer may make the conscious choice to interpret something in a way other than the intended meaning in order to appease their own requirements for enjoyment or what have you, but it doesn't make it "correct" in terms of the author's original intent.

stillakid
11-22-2003, 01:23 PM
"temper tantrums" ? :confused:

For Christ's sake, the guy's mother was murdered. MURDERED. :stupid:
God forbid if that ever happens to any of us, but personally if my mother is ever murdered and I show some emotion, well just realize how insulted I would feel if you accused me of throwing a tantrum. ;)

No offense stillakid, but you've taken so much time to point out how flawed these new films are but you seem so unaware as to what's really going on with Anakin. The whole idea behind the Tuskens sequence is that Anakin possesses great power. His mom is murdered and he gives in to his desire to secure vengeance/justice. Just because he COULD kill them does not mean that he SHOULD kill them. It has to do with power and the responsibility that comes with it. Instead of coping and learning to let go, he resorts to revenge killing.

No, we are not "being asked to believe that the entire reason that Anakin succumbs to the darkside is because he is a big baby who isn't getting his way, whatever that is."
SO FAR, what we've seen is that Anakin is succumbing to the darkside because he used his abilities for wrong and not right. That's the empathetic part of AOTC that I love. Anakin started to turn because of how he reacted to his mother's death. I can sympathize with him because who WOULDN'T want to kill every one of those Tuskens? :confused: I know I would. :evil:
I also know it would be wrong and I hope I wouldn't give in to my desire but then again the temptation would be great. So while it was not right of Anakin to kill them, I can understand why he would. :)

If you are content to write off all of that good stuff in AOTC as him just being a "big baby", so be it. :D



Uh, hmm, I think we're saying the same thing, except that I've chosen to characterize it with a negative connotation. :) I agree, Anakin has great power and doesn't yet have the maturity to make wise choices as to how to use it. He also consistently displays the propensity to lash out, unexpectedly and undeservedly, toward others, particularly Obi Wan, usually for no reason at all (and he even admits it!). Yes, his mom was killed, so he is allowed some reaction as you point out. I didn't suggest he shouldn't react. But his behavior all fits the model of a 3 or 4 year old child who isn't getting his way. So because of this, he will "proverbially" kill his father for the love of his mother and "proverbially" run away from home. He's a frickin' brat who feels entitled to all when he has earned nothing. My wife teaches these kind of kids at school everyday. If this is what George is trying to create for Anakin, then so be it, but I still think it was a poor avenue of choice for him to use to get Anakin to "go bad." But that's my opinion. :) He could have used politics as the primary vehicle or played up on a love triangle or something. But simply having an immature character run around whining for 3 movies is kinda weak.

Tycho
11-22-2003, 02:13 PM
It takes immature, not-well-adjusted kids to grow up into people willing to do that much evil.

Vader is the living embodiment of Anakin's need for revenge because "It's not fair!"

Statisically, there are normally socially adjusted kids who grow up to turn out bad (commit corporate fraud, or have their life fall apart on them through bad circumstances).

But I bet that statistically there are more kids who go in and out of foster homes, have problems adjusting as a child, etc., who decide "screw it! If I can't make something of myself by trying hard and this world has me down - then I'm going to make all of society pay!"

"I'm going to shoot up Columbine High School!"

"I'm going to kill Nicole Simpson-Brown"

"I'm going to kill Laci Peterson."

"I'm going to blow up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City."

"I'm going to take Danielle Van Dam."

"I'm going to jerk every American with an electric bill so I can live off my salary raise at Enron."

"I'm going to invade Iraq so that I can become President and satisfy my Mom and Dad, and my financial backers."

"Well, I'm going to choke Captain Antilles, kill all the Jedi Knights, take over the universe as we know it, and blow up countless people with my Death Star."

It fits the same bill.

stillakid
11-22-2003, 06:01 PM
It takes immature, not-well-adjusted kids to grow up into people willing to do that much evil.

Vader is the living embodiment of Anakin's need for revenge because "It's not fair!"

Statisically, there are normally socially adjusted kids who grow up to turn out bad (commit corporate fraud, or have their life fall apart on them through bad circumstances).

But I bet that statistically there are more kids who go in and out of foster homes, have problems adjusting as a child, etc., who decide "screw it! If I can't make something of myself by trying hard and this world has me down - then I'm going to make all of society pay!"

"I'm going to shoot up Columbine High School!"

"I'm going to kill Nicole Simpson-Brown"

"I'm going to kill Laci Peterson."

"I'm going to blow up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City."

"I'm going to take Danielle Van Dam."

"I'm going to jerk every American with an electric bill so I can live off my salary raise at Enron."

"I'm going to invade Iraq so that I can become President and satisfy my Mom and Dad, and my financial backers."

"Well, I'm going to choke Captain Antilles, kill all the Jedi Knights, take over the universe as we know it, and blow up countless people with my Death Star."

It fits the same bill.


I get all that, but the nagging portion of this whole thing is this:

PADME
Mentors have a way of seeing more
of our faults than we would like.
It's the only way we grow.

ANAKIN
I know...


He knows, yet he continues to whine and moan and carry on even when he claims to know better.

Tycho
11-22-2003, 07:07 PM
Old habits are hard to break.

The thing is that he's had a lifetime of learning how to deal with things not being fair, and come up with his own solutions:


He can't say no to Watto as a kid, and slavery certainly wasn't fair.

So he steals from Watto and gets away with everything behind his back - like building C-3PO and his podracer.

He treats Obi-Wan the same way, doing things not prescribed by Jedi orders.

2-1B
11-22-2003, 10:09 PM
Uh, hmm, I think we're saying the same thing, except that I've chosen to characterize it with a negative connotation. :) I agree, Anakin has great power and doesn't yet have the maturity to make wise choices as to how to use it. He also consistently displays the propensity to lash out, unexpectedly and undeservedly, toward others, particularly Obi Wan, usually for no reason at all (and he even admits it!). Yes, his mom was killed, so he is allowed some reaction as you point out. I didn't suggest he shouldn't react. But his behavior all fits the model of a 3 or 4 year old child who isn't getting his way. So because of this, he will "proverbially" kill his father for the love of his mother and "proverbially" run away from home. He's a frickin' brat who feels entitled to all when he has earned nothing. My wife teaches these kind of kids at school everyday. If this is what George is trying to create for Anakin, then so be it, but I still think it was a poor avenue of choice for him to use to get Anakin to "go bad." But that's my opinion. :) He could have used politics as the primary vehicle or played up on a love triangle or something. But simply having an immature character run around whining for 3 movies is kinda weak.

No, you suggested that the Tusken scene was a "temper tantrum" which does not at all fit the definition.

No, it does not fit the model of a 3 or 4 year old nor the kids your wife deals with. Those kids are all untalented and unproven. Anakin certainly HAS earned something, he's been a padawan for 10 years. Strong in the Force. Stop saying he has earned nothing when his skills have obviously gotten him SOMEWHERE.

Politics as an angle? Why not wait until the 3rd film is out and see what finally brings about Vader's emergence? They touched on politics in AOTC. Maybe they will continue that?

Once again, we were not saying the same thing because in the above post you use this "brattiness" as George's way to have Ani "go bad" but the one Vader-esque scene in AOTC deals with Ani's abuse of his power for vengeance over his mother's death. Hardly the actions of a brat. :rolleyes:

Love triangle? I can't believe you would be in favor of that, talk about a tired angle. :D Lifetime: television for women Star Wars fans. :p

Running around whining for 3 movies is kinda weak? I wasn't aware that you saw the third movie. When did it come out? ;) You talk about evaluating what's onscreen but you haven't even seen how Anakin acts in the third movie. :rolleyes: Maybe he will show some more maturity.

I also wasn't aware that Jake Lloyd's Anakin just ran around whining in TPM. :)

Talk about generalizations. :D



I get all that, but the nagging portion of this whole thing is this:

PADME
Mentors have a way of seeing more
of our faults than we would like.
It's the only way we grow.

ANAKIN
I know...


He knows, yet he continues to whine and moan and carry on even when he claims to know better.

Proof to me that he is not a brat (or do you mean brat as in bratwurst? :p ).

Anyway, the beauty in that scene is that Anakin shows that he knows the value in Obi-Wan's instruction. You interpret (oooooh, there's a dirty word :p ) this in a bad way, showing his character as unlikeable. You're entitled to do so. Personally I think you are wearing your "writer hat" too much when you evaluate this scene. Since Anakin knows that what Padme says is true, and he fails to comply with it, well he's an illogical part of the story. But he's a young guy, that's part of growing up !
We all knew right from wrong growing up, especially in our late teens. We are ALL guilty of doing something like this.

To me, that scene makes Anakin quite likeable because it shows that he DOES want to do well. I want him to as well. When he shows some selfishness, it bothers me because I like tha character and want to see him succeed. But I can also see where he is coming from because those are very human emotions.
So I like him in spite of his faults. That fact that he says "I know" shows to me that he really DOES respect his Good Friend Ben Kenobi. It can just be hard sometimes to see the bigger picture, especially at his age.




And I still think many people blow Ani's behavior out of proportion and overgeneralize the way his character comes across on screen. I think he's wonderfully complex. :)

Tycho
11-22-2003, 11:41 PM
I agree with Ceasar's well-thought-out points he makes.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
11-23-2003, 12:00 AM
(mike browses the thread)

wait, wait, somewhere in this thread was the discussion about Anakin as Vader being shown in Ep III, right? Among the usual anti-PT Stillakid comments with the typical defending of the PT by Jar jar and then the funny as hell comments by Caesar, i think i got lost and wanted to make sure.

That discussion WAS in here, right? :stupid:

I don't mind seeing Anakin as Vader in Ep. III. I think it'll make the dramatic events in ESB seem a bit crazier because we as the audience know Vader is Anakin and it's a big moment for Luke to find out about it. I don't think it'll de-dramatize it or make it more dramatic, just change the dramatic angles....at least, for me. that make sense? :crazed:

Jedi_Master_Guyute
11-23-2003, 12:04 AM
That fact that he says "I know" shows to me that he really DOES respect his Good Friend Ben Kenobi. It can just be hard sometimes to see the bigger picture, especially at his age.

Wait wait, hold the phone (or Star wars Wordly communication device), are you saying that Anakin and Obi are GOOD FRIENDS?!!!!?!?! That has yet to be proven in the eyes of Stilla!!! :crazed:

sorry, i couldn't resist. :D

Tycho
11-23-2003, 12:23 AM
I still think that if they don't make it obvious or bluntly show Hayden's face in the Vader uniform (mind you some pre-production shot we see in the Insider might show this, because Hayden's playing Vader, but it doesn't mean its a shot from the movie) then what we'd have is:

a 13 hour masterpiece (counting all the minutes over 2 hours each movie adds on) that proceeds as a logical story, with the impacts on each episode geared to the audience, made to be timeless, so new fans can continue to discover SW in episode order.

The challenge Lucas has is to make it all fit together, like he shot them in episode order. As an artist, if he pulls that off, I'll be highly appreciative of Episode 3, because as it's going now, he's doing a brilliant job.

What needs to be shown is:

Anakin turning bad - and the reasons why.

This will help us understand why Vader is the way he is, once we "discover" that he's Anakin - still alive - after that great moment in movie history, the climax of Episode 5.

stillakid
11-23-2003, 05:09 PM
No, you suggested that the Tusken scene was a "temper tantrum" which does not at all fit the definition.

No, it does not fit the model of a 3 or 4 year old nor the kids your wife deals with. Those kids are all untalented and unproven. Anakin certainly HAS earned something, he's been a padawan for 10 years. Strong in the Force. Stop saying he has earned nothing when his skills have obviously gotten him SOMEWHERE.
...
We all knew right from wrong growing up, especially in our late teens. We are ALL guilty of doing something like this.


Um, yeah, like I said, he's an immature brat who expects respect when he hasn't earned it and even admits that Obi is still trying to teach him some things. The Clone Wars toons (which I know you loath) really summed up the entire AOTC relationship very well with that brief interchange when Anakin whined about being powerful blah blah blah but Obi told him that it was his maturity that was in question. That's pretty much the gist of it. The guys over at Cartoon Network got it perfectly.


Anyhow, back to the Vader in III thing, I think that what I'm hearing from a lot of people is that they don't really give a damn about the original intentions of a work (novel, movie, etc.) If the author comes out with another work which would "ruin" mystery, surprise, intrigue, etc. if read/watched/experienced first, then who gives a sh**? Right? We're all entitled to our own opinions, but that's whacked. How about a Prequel to Wizard of Oz which shows the identity of the Wizard? So show that to your little kids first then show them the classic film. Watch their eyes light up as the curtain is pulled back...oh, wait a minute, that secret was already blown from the Prequel. But who gives a sh*t, just as long as the adults who have already seen the classic film have gotten their jollies. Right?

2-1B
11-23-2003, 06:50 PM
Wrong.
The way it worked out, by doing the OT first, then they were able to craft those surprises. For many many years now, it's been no secret that George was going back to show how everything got there.
I disagree with George that the movies "should" be watched in episode order but nobody is holding future viewers hostage by MAKING them watch in episode order.
If they are too ignorant to watch the movies in order of release, then no I don't care one bit about their enjoyment.

I agree completely that Anakin's maturity is not at the necessary level yet. Um, yeah, you said he has earned nothing when he clearly has done SOMETHING to get where he is. Comparing him to a group of useless toddlers is flat out wrong. :rolleyes:

The guys over at Cartoon Network didn't do anything with that exhange not already seen in AOTC.

So . . . how about Episode 3? I'm still curious to hear about all the whining Anakin does in that movie.
Do share. ;)

Beast
11-23-2003, 07:10 PM
Agreed 100% with Caesar on a number of points. I know I'll introduce any future Binks' to the movie in production order. And then after that, in episode order. Lucas has said time and time again, that the prequels will answer all the questions about how Anakin 'fell into darkness'. I don't want any lame red herrings to detract from that fall. Yes, Lucas has said that they should be watched in Episode Order. But I think he means for those of us who have already seen them in production order. Once I have all 6 on DVD, that will be my preferred way of watching them also. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Tycho
11-23-2003, 10:51 PM
WRONG.



Lucas has said time and time again, that the prequels will answer all the questions about how Anakin 'fell into darkness'. I don't want any lame red herrings to detract from that fall. Yes, Lucas has said that they should be watched in Episode Order. But I think he means for those of us who have already seen them in production order.

Geeze. JarJar and Ceasar are really selfish, aren't they? They want George to make the movies for THEM. They've been SW fans all their lives, so George must OWE them something, right? :rolleyes:


Lucas has said time and time again, that the prequels will answer all the questions about how Anakin 'fell into darkness'.

1) Anakin is angry over the death of his mother.

2) Anakin won't cast blame on himself for what he does to Padme (killing her as he thinks the Jedi (or Obi-Wan) got her to betray him.

3) Angry at the Jedi for not telling him Dooku was his father, before Anakin went and committed patricide by killing him. (LUCAS really messes up if they don't do this, revealing to Anakin, as well as the audience, that his dear mommy LIED, genetically, but there still was no father RAISING HIM, from a certain point of view (Shmi's).

4) Allied to Palpatine, who has cultivated Anakin's admiration and loyalty through his patronage. Will resist Mace trying to take away his pillar of support he never got from the Jedi he wasn't mature or dedicated enough to submit to.

5) He fights and loses to his master, Obi-Wan.

ALL THIS DESCRIBES HOW ANAKIN FALLS INTO DARKNESS. Lucas has fulfilled his promise. DUH! (for emphasis: "Duh!")



I don't want any lame red herrings to detract from that fall.

Did they? I just told you how Anakin fell above. (in one sec, Vader's rise...)

Meanwhile potential red herrings that I think make sense:

1) A new apprentice for Obi-Wan "Who was a pupil of mine...betrayed and murdered your father."

2) General Grevious - who perhaps in some circumstance, crosses Obi-Wan's path and owes the Jedi something (for sparing his life or something like that - a reason for Darth Vader to be kind ONCE to Kenobi, later in the film).

3) Dooku possibly surviving - though this defeats the "pupil of mine" statement being in there.

NOW VADER'S RISE:

1) Desires to hunt down the Jedi with great vengeance. (OK for red herrings too)

2) Wants to track down Padme, and make sure she couldn't have survived (OK for red herrings- one the baddies want to kill her - so they'd hunt her down, but two, Vader loved her, so he'd want to hunt her down to supposedly "save her," unless her betrayal of him is taken so personally, that he really does decide to finish the job he'd started (as Anakin choked her).

3) Run-in with Kenobi and baby Luke Skywalker, decides to let them go (OK by red herrings)

a) apprentice still loyal to Obi-Wan
b) Grevious (most unplausible) owed him a favor - one time only. Mercy for kid.
c) Dooku (had been trying to infiltrate the Sith as a Jedi all along - all that's happened "wasn't his fault")
d) actual reason NOT ELABORATED ON: Obi-Wan raised Anakin the majority of his life (9-23 years old), realizes he's wrong but it's "too late for me my son," and wishes Obi-Wan, the only father he really knew, to raise his son Luke - THE REASON LUKE SKYWALKER'S NAME IS NOT CHANGED TO HIDE HIS IDENTITY.

Going further with that, Vader pledges his loyalty to Palpatine, if his favor (regardless of real reason, or red herring reason) is honored, and Obi-Wan and the Skywalker child (who Palpatine probably knows about) is allowed to escape.


From Palpatine's point of view:

Luke is no threat as a child, a small price for Vader's loyalty. If he is never trained and stays out of their way, it's no problem. He'd be aware of it if Obi-Wan came back on the scene.

If Luke does become a threat, he'll be easy enough to track down - just follow the blown up Death Stars, and then he'll be turned or destroyed. - a small price for Vader's loyalty indeed.

NOW YOU HAVE THE RISE OF VADER:

1) Wants to hunt down Jedi - lots of good reasons given. From hindsight, we already know Anakin's reasons, and they were already shown in E3 even.

2) Wants to track down Padme - again explainable for Anakin, from hindsight.

3) Let's Obi-Wan and Luke go, to live happily out of the Empire - totally explainable for Anakin from hindsight.

4) Swears allegiance to Palpatine in trade-off to protect Luke - totally explainable for why Vader is loyal, from hindsight.


I wish you'd comment on my points and suggestions, versus telling everyone what YOU want. This movie is part of a masterpiece, not personally made for you.

2-1B
11-24-2003, 02:52 AM
Tycho, we can only comment so many times on how lame your Dooku-is-Anakin's-father-theory is before it becomes boring. :rolleyes:

Well I'm offended on several levels here.
I'm offended that Tycho called me selfish when he runs around barking some of the goofiest plot ideas which would only seem to please himself. Look toward "Han is a clone" for example. Holy jeez Tycho, you're going to lecture me about how these movies are not "made for me" yet you cling to your fantasies about Han being a clone and Dooku being Ani's father? Lucas is "really messing things up" if Dooku is not Ani's father? Sorry man, you're in for a big letdown. How selfish of you. :rolleyes:
You've gone on record in this thread as saying the movie will be "ruined" if they show Anakin as Vader. So who's really being selfish? :confused: Huh?
For god's sake, I've said before that there are many ways in which this stuff can all be handled. I don't think there is one absolute way to go.
So far I hate the idea of General Grievous but in a year and a half when you are running around SSG creaming in your pants over "how cool" he is, I won't be calling you selfish. I might not agree with you on the character but I won't call you selfish for enjoying it. :rolleyes:

stillakid has been issuing jabs lately by saying that if George shows Anakin's transformation into Vader, well he is somehow "pandering" to "fanboys" for them to get their "jollies" (his words). :rolleyes:
That's rather insulting. Instead of arguing the pros/cons of what to show and what not to show, stillakid decided to reduce it to "fanboy jollies." I don't need to see a montage sequence of Anakin going into the suit but I sure as hell don't want everything to be left a total mystery. And JJB is damned right about the goofy red herrings because unless we see a DIFFERENT Jedi apprentice "kill" Anakin, then ANH spills the beans right there. If Ben fights Anakin and "kills" him only to shift the blame to a red herring Vader in ANH, well then Obi-Wan really is a liar. As it works now, he isn't lying to Luke. But if Ben "kills" Ani in E3 and then blames "Vader", well the old man is a filty liar in ANH and it totally changes his character.

Dooku was trying to infiltrate the Sith? :confused: Tycho, what movie did YOU watch? You should be less selfish and see Dooku for what he really is. Jeez, talk about a "fanboy's jollies" - Tycho fits the bill. :rolleyes:

darthzirock
11-24-2003, 03:13 AM
In the scene, Yoda expresses his concern over the training of Anakin (at the very end of the film). Obi basically tells him to shove it. After a brief pause, Yoda tells him to go ahead and uses the "council agrees" statement. Now, unless he was using telepathy, it was clearly Yoda who was making that decision and, in a show of how much ego he has, illustrated that he believed he was "the council." That's the scene.

BZZZZZZT! Wrong! Survey says: "In a scene not necessary to the film, the Jedi Council had already voted to confer upon Obi-Wan the title of Jedi Knight, and to allow Obi-Wan to train Anakin. The training vote was 11:1, with Yoda being the sole dissenter. After all, Qui-Gon's cremation after his death in the Theed Generator Complex wasn't immediately following the fight with Darth Maul. It may have taken as long as a week to get everything cleared up after the Battle of Naboo. So, if the Council had enough time to determine that Obi-Wan had earned his Knighthood by defeating a Sith, they could certainly take the time to vote on the question of what to do with the annoying slaveboy!"

Lord Malakite
11-24-2003, 01:32 PM
It takes immature, not-well-adjusted kids to grow up into people willing to do that much evil.

Vader is the living embodiment of Anakin's need for revenge because "It's not fair!"

Statisically, there are normally socially adjusted kids who grow up to turn out bad (commit corporate fraud, or have their life fall apart on them through bad circumstances).

But I bet that statistically there are more kids who go in and out of foster homes, have problems adjusting as a child, etc., who decide "screw it! If I can't make something of myself by trying hard and this world has me down - then I'm going to make all of society pay!"

"I'm going to shoot up Columbine High School!"

"I'm going to kill Nicole Simpson-Brown"

"I'm going to kill Laci Peterson."

"I'm going to blow up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City."

"I'm going to take Danielle Van Dam."

"I'm going to jerk every American with an electric bill so I can live off my salary raise at Enron."

"I'm going to invade Iraq so that I can become President and satisfy my Mom and Dad, and my financial backers."

"Well, I'm going to choke Captain Antilles, kill all the Jedi Knights, take over the universe as we know it, and blow up countless people with my Death Star."

It fits the same bill.
Watch the political cheapshots Tycho. I've gotten a few complaints. :dead:

Tycho
11-24-2003, 05:23 PM
OK. I knew I snuck in a political jab and couldn't resist and nothing personal is meant to Caesar and JarJar, I like them both. I just think they feel that a montage of Hayden getting put into the suit is about the only way to tie up every question left, and I strongly disagree. I understand you two hate my theories (or hopeful plotlines), but I'll wait and see if I'm right or not. On Han Solo, I'm pretty sure, and I've been watching the OT from the perspective that he IS a Clone, and it's pretty cool knowing that information. If not, I hope Lucas comes up with something better, or my grievance will be with him. I'm glad we agree that the one red herring that would most satisfy Obi-Wan's lie not being discerned as a "big fat one" right in the middle of ANH, would be for him to have a new apprentice. So far, that doesn't look like it is planned to happen.

As to General Grievious, time will tell if I like him or hate him. I don't know if "I'll run around the forums declaring how cool he is," though (once I see E3). If he serves his purpose as a red herring somehow, I might. If not, he's a knock-off character that really has no bearing on the overall story. Me supporting him is like me posting how awesome I think Dash Rendar is :rolleyes: No one would care.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
11-24-2003, 06:17 PM
Tycho- where do you get this Han is a clone business anyway? I'm just a tad curious as to how this could benefit the trilogy and how it could make the OT better/give hints in the OT about it. You've captured my curiosity on this matter! :crazed:

stillakid
11-24-2003, 11:37 PM
So . . . how about Episode 3? I'm still curious to hear about all the whining Anakin does in that movie.
Do share. ;)

It was a preemptive strike. :) But after rewatching Life As A House, I think that a lot of it comes from Hayden's acting style anyhow. When he opens his mouth, most of the time it sounds like he has some cotton jammed in there, so he just sounds like he's whining. :D


Agreed 100% with Caesar on a number of points. I know I'll introduce any future Binks' to the movie in production order. And then after that, in episode order. Lucas has said time and time again, that the prequels will answer all the questions about how Anakin 'fell into darkness'. I don't want any lame red herrings to detract from that fall. Yes, Lucas has said that they should be watched in Episode Order. But I think he means for those of us who have already seen them in production order. Once I have all 6 on DVD, that will be my preferred way of watching them also. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

I'm actually surprised to see you admit in a rather roundabout way that these are better seen in Production order (for a first time viewer), but I'm curious as to what makes you make the assumption on George's part. :confused: Is that conjecture from you or is there a mention in an interview somewhere in which he hints at the idea. I only ask because that would mean that he in fact realizes that he would "ruin" the OT with the choices he's making for the newer films (surprises, etc). Knowing that in turn would alter my perception of him as I now consider him a buffoon for not knowing better when he should, when in fact if what you say is true, then he is making the conscious choice to give away everything because he actually intends these to be viewed in Production Order.


I don't need to see a montage sequence of Anakin going into the suit but I sure as hell don't want everything to be left a total mystery. And JJB is damned right about the goofy red herrings because unless we see a DIFFERENT Jedi apprentice "kill" Anakin, then ANH spills the beans right there. If Ben fights Anakin and "kills" him only to shift the blame to a red herring Vader in ANH, well then Obi-Wan really is a liar. As it works now, he isn't lying to Luke. But if Ben "kills" Ani in E3 and then blames "Vader", well the old man is a filty liar in ANH and it totally changes his character.
I'm not sure that is right, but I may not be reading it correctly.

Let me try: If Episode III shows Obi take down Anakin and appear to kill him and Vader and Anakin aren't heard from until Episodes IV and VI respectively, then you are right in saying that Old Ben's speech in ANH gives it away totally or Ben is shown to be a filthy liar.

However, if Episode III shows Obi Wan take down Anakin, and then some kind of other lame red-herring character appears to finish him off, then Old Ben's reputation in ANH remains safe. This could work if this alternate red-herring character is properly set up so that the audience believes that he/she/it has the motivation to see Anakin dead (when in fact, this red-herring character is the one who will pull the broken boy to safety). It's a tricky sequence to pull off and preserve the original intention of the OT if these are to be viewed in Episode order for a first time viewer.

:crazed: This is getting crazier the more we talk about it. I think that this is an inherent problem in trying to tell a history of established characters and events while trying to pretend that it could all be experienced in real story time. I just don't think it's really possible to do such a thing. George would have been better off starting with Episode I and continuing through to the end. Who knows? Maybe we would have seen all 9 episodes had he done it that way from the start.


BZZZZZZT! Wrong! Survey says: "In a scene not necessary to the film, the Jedi Council had already voted to confer upon Obi-Wan the title of Jedi Knight, and to allow Obi-Wan to train Anakin. The training vote was 11:1, with Yoda being the sole dissenter. After all, Qui-Gon's cremation after his death in the Theed Generator Complex wasn't immediately following the fight with Darth Maul. It may have taken as long as a week to get everything cleared up after the Battle of Naboo. So, if the Council had enough time to determine that Obi-Wan had earned his Knighthood by defeating a Sith, they could certainly take the time to vote on the question of what to do with the annoying slaveboy!"
BZZZZZZT! You're wrong. Which fan site did you pull that off of because it sure as hell isn't part of the movie I watched? In the movie scene, Obi tells Yoda that he wants to train the boy. Yoda rejects that. Obi rebuffs his refusal. Yoda pauses then takes it upon himself to apparently speak for the entire council. We can only assume that he'll drop the rest of the Jedi Council members a memo or quietly slip his decision into the minutes in between the results from the canned food drive and the scores from the intermural softball game.

2-1B
11-25-2003, 03:33 AM
I just think they feel that a montage of Hayden getting put into the suit is about the only way to tie up every question left, and I strongly disagree.

Sorry Tycho, you thought wrong. :D
I've actually said on these forums that I don't want a "montage" scene (stillakid and I actually agree on that). I don't want some type of RoboCop type creation scene, but I also don't want them to go to added lengths to cover up the fact that Anakin becomes Vader.

Look, people in the past have said on these forums that they don't need a huge conspiracy to hide Vader's identity. You know what? I disagree with those people as to the importance of hiding it but at the same time I think it could be a cool way to make the film. Yet, I don't think they could do it without a red herring (because of Ben in ANH) so that is why I'd rather just have it all out there that Vader was once Anakin. Hayden wearing a partial mask like some of those drawings have alleged ? ? ? Ehhhhhhh, I'm not totally sold on that but I'll give it a chance, I guess.


It was a preemptive strike. :) But after rewatching Life As A House, I think that a lot of it comes from Hayden's acting style anyhow. When he opens his mouth, most of the time it sounds like he has some cotton jammed in there, so he just sounds like he's whining. :D

Jeez, give him a break, he's Canadian! :D



I'm not sure that is right, but I may not be reading it correctly.

Let me try: If Episode III shows Obi take down Anakin and appear to kill him and Vader and Anakin aren't heard from until Episodes IV and VI respectively, then you are right in saying that Old Ben's speech in ANH gives it away totally or Ben is shown to be a filthy liar.

However, if Episode III shows Obi Wan take down Anakin, and then some kind of other lame red-herring character appears to finish him off, then Old Ben's reputation in ANH remains safe. This could work if this alternate red-herring character is properly set up so that the audience believes that he/she/it has the motivation to see Anakin dead (when in fact, this red-herring character is the one who will pull the broken boy to safety). It's a tricky sequence to pull off and preserve the original intention of the OT if these are to be viewed in Episode order for a first time viewer.

:crazed: This is getting crazier the more we talk about it. I think that this is an inherent problem in trying to tell a history of established characters and events while trying to pretend that it could all be experienced in real story time. I just don't think it's really possible to do such a thing. George would have been better off starting with Episode I and continuing through to the end. Who knows? Maybe we would have seen all 9 episodes had he done it that way from the start.

Yeah, I think we're in agreement there. That's what I was saying earlier, without a red herring it won't work. And it's just my personal opinion that I think a red herring would probably be lame.

That's why I got so riled up with you and (especially) Tycho last night - I don't have a personal fan boy desire to see Anakin "hulked up" and turned into Vader in a montage sequence. I just want to see Anakin give in to his hatred and fight to the near death with Obi-Wan. Keep it small and intimate. No red herrings brought in to be Obi's other apprentice.

Look, it's my belief that George (and his friends) set out to make a cool sci-fi epic in ANH.
They did that. :)
I can't say for sure how long George had the Vader-is-Luke's-dad thing in his head, but I doubt it was a key element in his making of ANH. They didn't know they would be getting to finish off a trilogy. So the way ANH is done with Ben and Luke, as it stands alone it is true that Vader killed Luke's dad.
Cut and Dry. :)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ANH is a huge success so they get to do 3 more. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
ESB can drop the Vader/Dad bomb and ROTJ can clear up the questions raised not only in ESB but especially from that convo in ANH between Ben and Luke.

All I know is that Vader's identity cannot be hidden in the prequels without a red herring and personally I just don't think it's necessary. Like I've said before, if/when I introduce someone to these movies I'll do it in production order. That way they get to experience it just as the general public did. Be surprised at the Vader revelations. Feel for Luke. And then go back in time to learn the whole backstory with the prequels. Really, it's no different than if Ben, Yoda, and Ani had sat around post-DS2 and told Luke (and the Ewoks) about this great history.

And for someone like myself, having seen all episodes before, well I'm going to watch them in episode order. Why not? It's no different than watching the OT in episode order . . . while watching ESB I already know what's coming in the next film but I still enjoy it. :)

Frankly, I don't know why George should craft the prequels to hide anything when one of the advantages of doing the OT first was that he COULD drop some of those bombs. "We" benefited by seeing these in production order and I think future audiences should as well.

The Godfather is another fave trilogy of mine and I don't feel compelled to watch the DeNiro scenes from GF 2 before watching part 1 and then back to 2 for the PAcino/Nevada stuff. :crazed:

arctangent
11-25-2003, 04:57 AM
BZZZZZZT! You're wrong. Which fan site did you pull that off of because it sure as hell isn't part of the movie I watched? In the movie scene, Obi tells Yoda that he wants to train the boy. Yoda rejects that. Obi rebuffs his refusal. Yoda pauses then takes it upon himself to apparently speak for the entire council. We can only assume that he'll drop the rest of the Jedi Council members a memo or quietly slip his decision into the minutes in between the results from the canned food drive and the scores from the intermural softball game.

yoda does actually state that he does not agree with anakin being trained (i know because i watched the phantom menace on saturday). he than states to obi wan "agree with you the council does". this points to the fact that the council have indeed debated this point before yoda's meeting with obi wan - yoda is not presuming to speak for the council or making a unilateral decision about anakin's training. he does not agree with the decision so why would he suddenly change his mind and inform the council when he gets a spare moment. examine the evidence, stillakid.

arctangent
11-25-2003, 04:59 AM
BZZZZZZT! You're wrong. Which fan site did you pull that off of because it sure as hell isn't part of the movie I watched? In the movie scene, Obi tells Yoda that he wants to train the boy. Yoda rejects that. Obi rebuffs his refusal. Yoda pauses then takes it upon himself to apparently speak for the entire council. We can only assume that he'll drop the rest of the Jedi Council members a memo or quietly slip his decision into the minutes in between the results from the canned food drive and the scores from the intermural softball game.

yoda does actually state that he does not agree with anakin being trained (i know because i watched the phantom menace on saturday). having told obi wan that he does not agree with anakin being trained, he then states to obi wan "agree with you the council does". this points to the fact that the council have indeed debated this point before yoda's meeting with obi wan - yoda is not presuming to speak for the council or making a unilateral decision about anakin's training. he does not agree with the decision so why would he suddenly change his mind and inform the council when he gets a spare moment. examine the evidence, stillakid.

Tycho
11-25-2003, 02:32 PM
Tycho- where do you get this Han is a clone business anyway? I'm just a tad curious as to how this could benefit the trilogy and how it could make the OT better/give hints in the OT about it. You've captured my curiosity on this matter! :crazed:


Jedi Master Guyute: in the interests of not rubbing the genie bottle so much that it breaks, my answer to the Han is a Clone Theory is all backed up in this thread: http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22067

NOTE: MY FIRST 2-3 POSTS in this thread do not lay it all out, because I had done so before, and I didn't want to repeat myself. You have to read deep into this thread to get what you want out of there.

As I start to respond to many of the group's objections to my theory, I came back and directly stated my reasoning.

You have to read further down into this thread especially the post I made regarding fairy tale story structure. Ignore the stuff about Luke and Vader, it was a sideline in the discussion that only applies to like 3 posts.

stillakid
11-25-2003, 11:22 PM
yoda does actually state that he does not agree with anakin being trained (i know because i watched the phantom menace on saturday). having told obi wan that he does not agree with anakin being trained, he then states to obi wan "agree with you the council does". this points to the fact that the council have indeed debated this point before yoda's meeting with obi wan - yoda is not presuming to speak for the council or making a unilateral decision about anakin's training. he does not agree with the decision so why would he suddenly change his mind and inform the council when he gets a spare moment. examine the evidence, stillakid.


Yeah, I did, and at no time does the scene imply that this was discussed by the council previous to Obi's discussion with Yoda. One could rationalize the clear omission of this information into the film (to make up for the filmmaker's lack of bothering to make a cohesive story) but I choose to not do his work for him and fill in blanks that could so easily have been plugged with a word or two.

Such as if Yoda had said instead, "A stubborn bastard you are Obi Wan. Begin training Anakin you will. To the coucil, I will recommend this to." But instead what that scene really says is that Yoda is taking it upon himself to decide council-type decisions on his own and presumably he'll let them know what "they" all decided later on.

2-1B
11-26-2003, 03:08 AM
stillakid, it's all right there ! The filmaker did put it up there, I just don't think you bothered to get it.
It's not a rationalization, it's a reasonable understanding of what's on screen. :)

The scene pans down on Obi and Yoda. Yoda says that the council confers on him the status of Jedi Knight BUT Yoda does not agree with Obi training Anakin.

Then Obi stands firm and says he will do so with or without the permission of the council (he obviously does not know what the official ruling will be). THEN Yoda tells him that the council agrees and that Ani will be Obi's apprentice.

And don't forget that Obi-Wan tells Anakin during the funeral that "the council has granted me permission to train you."

Yoda says at the beginning of the scene that the council has knighted Obi-Wan, and then says that I do not agree with training the boy, and THEN says "agree with you the Council does." Why would he use thrid person, then first person, and back to third person if he's talking about himself in both disagreeing with the training and yet agreeing on behalf of the council? :confused:
No, instead Yoda is saying that HE disagrees with the training but THE COUNCIL agrees with Obi-Wan.

Also remember that the Council is there on Naboo. There's no reason for Yoda to speak on their behalf especially since they are right there on the same planet.

Beast
11-26-2003, 03:16 AM
Thank you Caesar! I was going to dig out the DVD and make sure I had the quotes right before I posted that stuff. But I've been ungodly busy as of late. But luckily you saved me needing to. It's all there in technicolor evidence. Some people just refuse to actually bother to see it. Because they're way to busy trying to find flaws and problems with the movie, so they can nitpick it to death. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

darthzirock
11-26-2003, 03:48 AM
Thank you Caesar! I was going to dig out the DVD and make sure I had the quotes right before I posted that stuff. But I've been ungodly busy as of late. But luckily you saved me needing to. It's all there in technicolor evidence. Some people just refuse to actually bother to see it. Because they're way to busy trying to find flaws and problems with the movie, so they can nitpick it to death. :D

OK, you guys beat me to it! I was typing out the actual lines from the farkin' screenplay in order to prove to our obtuse lil buddy what was what.


BZZZZZZT! You're wrong. Which fan site did you pull that off of because it sure as hell isn't part of the movie I watched?

I didn't need to pull it off of a fan site, stillakid. I wrote it myself in response to your inability to understand the scene as presented. Since several other forum members interpretted it the same way as I did--

BZZZZZZT!!!!!!!!! You're wong! Maybe when you're an adult instead of being stillakid, you'll be able to better understand the complexities of the printed and spoken word. Until then, enjoy the pretty colors when the lightsabers connect.

arctangent
11-26-2003, 04:28 AM
Yeah, I did, and at no time does the scene imply that this was discussed by the council previous to Obi's discussion with Yoda. One could rationalize the clear omission of this information into the film (to make up for the filmmaker's lack of bothering to make a cohesive story) but I choose to not do his work for him and fill in blanks that could so easily have been plugged with a word or two.

Such as if Yoda had said instead, "A stubborn bastard you are Obi Wan. Begin training Anakin you will. To the coucil, I will recommend this to." But instead what that scene really says is that Yoda is taking it upon himself to decide council-type decisions on his own and presumably he'll let them know what "they" all decided later on.

sorry, stillakid but having any kind of discussion or debate with you a an excercise in futility. you talk about examining and evaluating evidence and then you ignore what is right in front of you in the film. what part of 'agree with you the council does' points to it not being discussed by the council before yoda's meeting with obi wan? please present your evidence? there is none. just read that sentence. if it has not been previously discussed how does yoda know the council's agreement with obi wan's wish to train anakin? why would yoda say he didn't agree with anakin being trained, then change his mind and blame the council for the decision? that makes no sense. you have absolutely no argument against this. it is in the film. its not a made up line. show me the evidence and prove me wrong.

stillakid
11-26-2003, 01:05 PM
stillakid, it's all right there ! The filmaker did put it up there, I just don't think you bothered to get it.
It's not a rationalization, it's a reasonable understanding of what's on screen. :)

The scene pans down on Obi and Yoda. Yoda says that the council confers on him the status of Jedi Knight BUT Yoda does not agree with Obi training Anakin.

Then Obi stands firm and says he will do so with or without the permission of the council (he obviously does not know what the official ruling will be). THEN Yoda tells him that the council agrees and that Ani will be Obi's apprentice.

And don't forget that Obi-Wan tells Anakin during the funeral that "the council has granted me permission to train you."

Yoda says at the beginning of the scene that the council has knighted Obi-Wan, and then says that I do not agree with training the boy, and THEN says "agree with you the Council does." Why would he use thrid person, then first person, and back to third person if he's talking about himself in both disagreeing with the training and yet agreeing on behalf of the council? :confused:
No, instead Yoda is saying that HE disagrees with the training but THE COUNCIL agrees with Obi-Wan.

Also remember that the Council is there on Naboo. There's no reason for Yoda to speak on their behalf especially since they are right there on the same planet.


Oh I get it alright. But what you're implying is that if Yoda had managed to badger Obi Wan down right then and convinced him that training Anakin was a bad idea, then Yoda would in fact have been acting autonomously in conflict with the decision of the council. Either way (mine or yours), the little gnome is out to have it his way.

stillakid
11-26-2003, 01:07 PM
sorry, stillakid but having any kind of discussion or debate with you a an excercise in futility. you talk about examining and evaluating evidence and then you ignore what is right in front of you in the film. what part of 'agree with you the council does' points to it not being discussed by the council before yoda's meeting with obi wan? please present your evidence? there is none. just read that sentence. if it has not been previously discussed how does yoda know the council's agreement with obi wan's wish to train anakin? why would yoda say he didn't agree with anakin being trained, then change his mind and blame the council for the decision? that makes no sense. you have absolutely no argument against this. it is in the film. its not a made up line. show me the evidence and prove me wrong.


Pop the movie in and watch it again. I'm just describing the scene as is. You are trying to justify a different conclusion by assuming that Yoda has already had a conference with the Council on this issue when indeed, no such meeting was implied nor shown. The scene shows Yoda trying to talk Obi Wan out of training the kid, then pausing, then starting up again to speak for the Council. See my post above for more details.

Beast
11-26-2003, 01:27 PM
Sorry Stillakid, the dialogue clearly shows that the granting of Obi-Wan Knight status and the training of Anakin was discussed by the council. If you choose to not see it, because you'd rather live in your own little fantasy world, then that is your choice. Seems like a waste to me. To hate a movie so much, that even when you see evidence from the actual movie, you skew it to feed your weak arguments. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Tycho
11-26-2003, 04:38 PM
Stillakid, you're so obviously wrong on that count that I'm not going to even bother going on about it.

Nearly everyone gets that point but you. I think you're playing the devil's advocate in this case, just to get a response. Really, I do. Goading "the little Star Wars fans" when you yourself have nothing better to do than post here, unless of course you're doing a psychology study on all of us. :rolleyes: I know you can understand a scene that simple that uses dialogue to establish what happened off screen.

Does the fact that they never showed it disprove that "many Bothans died to bring us this information?"

2 possibilities:

a) they died. Elaborated on in Shadows of the Empire.

b) they sided with Palpatine, and faked tragedy to convince Mon Mothma their information was hard won, and not bait to lure the Alliance into a trap.

But we never saw Bothans in any of the movies.

[Tongue in cheek, Stillakid]: "I don't believe Bothans exist now."

2-1B
11-26-2003, 06:13 PM
Oh I get it alright. But what you're implying is that if Yoda had managed to badger Obi Wan down right then and convinced him that training Anakin was a bad idea, then Yoda would in fact have been acting autonomously in conflict with the decision of the council. Either way (mine or yours), the little gnome is out to have it his way.

What I'm implying is that in light of the Council's decision, Yoda is offering his dissent. Not unlike a Supreme Court Justice who writes his or her dissent. The ruling stands even though one of the Justices does not agree.
Who knows what would have happened if Obi-Wan had changed his mind about Anakin . . . it's an interesting "what if" but it doesn't matter in regard to what we're talking about.


Pop the movie in and watch it again. I'm just describing the scene as is. You are trying to justify a different conclusion by assuming that Yoda has already had a conference with the Council on this issue when indeed, no such meeting was implied nor shown. The scene shows Yoda trying to talk Obi Wan out of training the kid, then pausing, then starting up again to speak for the Council. See my post above for more details.

It was both implied and shown when he said "agree with you the Council does."
So are we to assume that Yoda was the only one involved in knighting Obi-Wan? He said at the beginning that the Council conferred on him the level of Jedi Knight. I guess the council had nothing to do with that?

2-1B
11-26-2003, 06:41 PM
I'd like to mention a pair of scenes in AOTC:

Mace tells Obi-Wan that Anakin will go to Naboo as an escort for m'lady. Later on, Obi-Wan questions the decision while strolling with Yoda and Mace. Yoda tells Obi-Wan, "the council is confident in its decision."

:)

arctangent
11-27-2003, 04:12 AM
Pop the movie in and watch it again. I'm just describing the scene as is. You are trying to justify a different conclusion by assuming that Yoda has already had a conference with the Council on this issue when indeed, no such meeting was implied nor shown. The scene shows Yoda trying to talk Obi Wan out of training the kid, then pausing, then starting up again to speak for the Council. See my post above for more details.

you are just being obtuse for the sake of it. i am not assuming anything. i am listening to the dialogue. the meeting of the jedi council to discuss anakin's training is is implicit in the sentance 'agree with you the council does' when taken in the context of the whole scene. otherwise the sentence and the entire scene makes no sense. you still have offered no evidence to the contrary, but obviously everyone else posting here is wrong and you are right, dispite all the evidence pointing against it.

billfremore
11-27-2003, 11:46 AM
Holy cow! Did somebody put a bounty on Stillakid's head? :D

I'd throw my 2 cents in here but I think you guys have it covered, I'll just read and enjoy the banter.

stillakid
11-27-2003, 01:00 PM
What I'm implying is that in light of the Council's decision, Yoda is offering his dissent. Not unlike a Supreme Court Justice who writes his or her dissent. The ruling stands even though one of the Justices does not agree.
Who knows what would have happened if Obi-Wan had changed his mind about Anakin . . . it's an interesting "what if" but it doesn't matter in regard to what we're talking about.


Sure it does. I understand what you're saying entirely, but it is clear to me that Yoda was trying to talk Obi Wan out of training Anakin. So supposing that you and the rest of the lynch mob ;) are correct in extrapolating that the council made the decision prior to this meeting, Yoda is still working autonomously to alter that decision. What would the rest of the Supreme Court do if say, they made a decision, then Clarence Thomas had a little "sidebar" with the parties involved to try to get them to change their minds? That's the situation we have here, so if nothing else, it really begins to cast Yoda (and his own arrogance?) into a pretty bad light.



Holy cow! Did somebody put a bounty on Stillakid's head? :D


I think so! :Pirate:



you are just being obtuse for the sake of it. i am not assuming anything. i am listening to the dialogue. the meeting of the jedi council to discuss anakin's training is is implicit in the sentance 'agree with you the council does' when taken in the context of the whole scene. otherwise the sentence and the entire scene makes no sense. you still have offered no evidence to the contrary, but obviously everyone else posting here is wrong and you are right, dispite all the evidence pointing against it.
No, not really. And if you believe a word of that, you really haven't been reading anything at all that I've been writing. I really have better things to do than be "obtuse" for the sake of it. Caesar explained his p.o.v. pretty well, and if you'd actually been paying attention, you'd have seen that I considered it as a possiblity and then "extrapolated" another parallel problem ( with Yoda and his motivations ) because of it.

But here is the scripted scene:

INT. TURRET ROOM - NABOO PALACE - LATE DAY

The sun streams into the multi-windowed room at a low angle. It is not quite sunset. YODA paces before OBI-WAN, who is kneeling in the center of the room.

YODA : Confer on you, the level of Jedi Knight the Coucil does. But agree on you taking this boy as your Padawan learner, I do not.
OBI-WAN : Qui-Gon believed in him. I believe in Qui-Gon.
YODA : The Chosen One the boy may be; nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training.
OBI-WAN : Master Yoda, Igave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without the approval of the Council if I must.
YODA : Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you. Need that, you do not. Agree, the council does. Your apprentice, young Skywalker will be.

Yoda does indeed suggest that the Council met and decided to promote Obi Wan, but doesn't even suggest that the question of Anakin had been brought up. He immediately jumps into trying to talk Obi Wan out of training the boy. The exchange continues and despite Obi Wan's insistence, Yoda still remains in opposition, primarily attacking Anakin and the "danger" surrounding him. When that doesn't work out, Yoda then turns his efforts to attacking Obi Wan's character while taking a shot at Qui Gon as well.

Then, out of the blue, he tells us that the Council has decided to let Obi Wan train Anakin. Two possibilities exist here:

1. The council did not decide this in their previous meeting and Yoda took it upon himself to make a decision for and speak for the Council. Or...

2. The council did decide this in their previous meeting and Yoda was trying to circumvent their decision in a last ditch effort when he had Obi Wan behind closed doors.


So, how 'bout you quit being so "obtuse," recognize the possibilities, stop the character assassination, and get back to the discussion.

Tycho
11-27-2003, 01:34 PM
2. The council did decide this in their previous meeting and Yoda was trying to circumvent their decision in a last ditch effort when he had Obi Wan behind closed doors.


This is exactly what I always thought was going on.

I skipped some reading, but does anyone have any problem with this above?


By the way, I had the opportunity to spread the gospel yesterday and show the Prequel movies to someone who had never seen them before, and barely remembers the OT.

She asked me without any prompting if Obi-Wan was TOO YOUNG to be a Jedi Master with a 9 year old Padawan (even before she saw AOTC and Anakin's growing impatience with Obi-Wan). She got it.

Other observations: Palpatine's crooked, isn't he?

She liked AOTC better than TPM, but few don't.

She remembers Vader's revelation that he is Luke's father from when she saw it as a little girl. She wanted to know if Palpatine was Anakin's dad. (I said, nah...)

I suggested that I think Anakin's dad is in the movies. She said that Dooku looked sad when he cut off Anakin's arm. She asked me, "is that his Dad?" (I replied that I think it would make for a great story if he was!)

stillakid
11-27-2003, 02:03 PM
Holy cow! Did somebody put a bounty on Stillakid's head? :D
.


And, hey, look at it this way. If it wasn't for people like me, this place would be filled with something like this:

SSG MEMBER 1: Gee, wasn't it swell when so and so did that and blah blah blah?

SSG MEMBER 2: Yeah, it was really nifty, wasn't it. :) I'm so happy with everything. I can hardly wait for more!

:zzz:




;)

stillakid
11-27-2003, 02:12 PM
2. The council did decide this in their previous meeting and Yoda was trying to circumvent their decision in a last ditch effort when he had Obi Wan behind closed doors.


This is exactly what I always thought was going on.

I skipped some reading, but does anyone have any problem with this above?


The only problem I have with it is that in AOTC, Yoda seems perfectly content with Anakin being trained and being let loose upon the galaxy, even when Obi Wan expresses his own concerns about it. And being the one individual who has worked closest with the kid, one would think that Obi Wan's opinion would be trusted. But Yoda just sluffs it off with some disparaging comment about arrogant Jedi. There is a strange disconnect between Yoda's adamant dissapproval of Anakin in Ep I and his willingness to let the arrogance go so easily in Episode II.

But this is representative of what I see as a large part of the problem with the Prequels. The characters are oddly inconsistent. From one sequence to the next, their motivations and decisions often don't match previous attitudes. Such as Obi Wan's own support of the Council's decision in TPM, to his sudden willingness to follow the wishes of a dead man, back to his doubts about Anakin. Or Anakin's frequent rantings against Obi Wan even when he admits to knowing better. One of the major points that the films was trying to express was that the downfall of the Republic was due to a rampant indecisiveness on the part of the Senate. However, not only is that not really played out in any meaningful way, we instead see that it is the Jedi who are repeatedly inconsistent in their decisions and opinions.

Tycho
11-27-2003, 02:53 PM
"Yes. More and more Jedi are becoming too arrogant. Even the older more experienced ones." He looks at MACE/

"No, whoever gave that order did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council."


I think Yoda is more concerned about what is going on within the upper eschelons of the Jedi Order, than a small Master and Apprentice training problem.

1) I think that Yoda already knows Palpatine is the Dark Lord. Mace might also, but I'm not sure.

2) I think Mace acted without the authorization of the Council before, and Yoda knows it, and is very subtly accusing him of being arrogant like Kenobi's padawan, to think he knew best without the approval of the council.*

3) The creation of a Republic Army is a much bigger issue than dubious prophesies. Its at least more immediate.

4) So Yoda just has better things to be worried about than Anakin. About the time the kid is slashing up Tuskens, Yoda realizes he should reprioritize.

Stillakid, I look at the movies as one large tapestry, and what happens in one of them that can't be explained, must be related to what will happen in the next one.

Here's what I think is going on:

(DURING TPM, or around that time, offscreen)

Dooku is Anakin's father and Mace Windu's friend.

With the arrival of Anakin to the temple, and the midichlorian test, which points to Jedi records matching Dooku's, Mace decides it's best for Dooku to leave the temple so as to not interfere with Anakin's training. Not hard, since Dooku's never around the temple anyway or Obi-Wan would have met him before. But Jedi are not supposed to have children in the first place, and like the baseball coach that's too hard on their son, there's no way the Jedi will allow a parent to train a child.

The Sith have re-emerged, based on Qui-Gon's report after the Tatooine attack. Dooku, with back knowledge that he came from a wealthy family, can attract the Sith who must be dabbling in (at least) the GREEDY Trade Federation's affairs, on account of the Naboo conflict. Dooku ingratiates himself with the Trade Federation, so that they can keep Nute out of jail on Dooku's money and attorneys (and 4 trials in the Supreme Court). Darth Sidious notices Dooku helping the Trade Federation, knows his old history with the Jedi, knows he's supposedly left the order, disgruntled with the Republic, might know he has a son, definitely knows he was Yoda's personal apprentice. All useful. Sidious knows he was a Jedi Master, but thinks the Dark Side will corrupt everyone, and that Dooku can be killed if he becomes troublesome.

One of his early errands is to oversee the creation of a Clone Army. Dooku recruits Jango Fett, etc.

Mace and Dooku meet sometimes, exchange info sometime. Mace might've known about the Clone Army, but Yoda didn't.

Mace is arrogant if he lets this situation get out of control without taking it to the Jedi Council. Dooku is a fool to think he could handle the dark side.

Many Jedi die at Geonosis. Dooku's made his choice. Mace failed to stop him.

The Jedi will be blamed for creating the Clones and a state of galactic war. Even if Yoda knows Palpatine is the Sith Lord, they can't attack him without proof, or they will be blamed for trying to seize total power, and assasinate a democratically elected Chancellor. Eventually, Mace appears to try this in E3. Palpatine will use this as evidence the Jedi are power-hungry and call for their elimination, as they have betrayed the Republic. With his emergency powers and the Separatists threats, he'll call for unification under a new "peaceful and prosperous Empire."

By killing Dooku, Anakin stopped both the Jedi's chance at having evidence Palpatine was the Sith Lord, and he murdered his own father in his ignorance, which he will never forgive the Jedi for not enlightening him on his true lineage (and he learns his dear Mother lied to him, of course).

On top of that, with everything he's know becoming a lie, his lashing out and killing Mace (with Palpatine's help), Padme's betrayal of her distraught husband's location (so Obi-Wan can presumably help him), Anakin's denial he killed Padme (and that wasn't Obi-Wan's fault also :rolleyes: ) he's exceedingly dangerous, but Obi-Wan puts him down in a terrible battle.

With the arrival of Darth Vader on the scene, the only reason Anakin will obey Palpatine, is he finds out Luke survived, and with the Jedi wiped out, and the Sith Lord all powerful, he makes a deal to protect his son, and trades his life (his loyalty to death) to Palpatine, for the unconditional protection of his son, who he knowingly sends with Obi-Wan to Tatooine, a place he knows he'll never return to because of his tragedy there (his mom, the Tuskens, his failure and his broken promise to never fail again).

Of course the red herring reason, will allow for some speculation why if someone else is Darth Vader, he lets Obi-Wan take Luke and go.

Possibly if Grevious was once a Jedi, and Obi-Wan spares his life, and he is honor-bound as a warrior to owe him for that... (red herring one)

Or if it's implied that Dooku could have survived, and sustained such wounds that he required the black suit, and lets Obi-Wan go to take care of his grandson, regretful the Sith got so far in spite of his great plan he had with Mace a long time ago. (red herring two)

Or if Obi-Wan is rightfully given a new young apprentice, who has something against Anakin, who still might've been turned to the Dark Side, but had compassion for his old master. (red herring three)

2-1B
11-27-2003, 04:25 PM
Sure it does. I understand what you're saying entirely, but it is clear to me that Yoda was trying to talk Obi Wan out of training Anakin. So supposing that you and the rest of the lynch mob ;) are correct in extrapolating that the council made the decision prior to this meeting, Yoda is still working autonomously to alter that decision. What would the rest of the Supreme Court do if say, they made a decision, then Clarence Thomas had a little "sidebar" with the parties involved to try to get them to change their minds? That's the situation we have here, so if nothing else, it really begins to cast Yoda (and his own arrogance?) into a pretty bad light.Yoda does indeed suggest that the Council met and decided to promote Obi Wan, but doesn't even suggest that the question of Anakin had been brought up. He immediately jumps into trying to talk Obi Wan out of training the boy. The exchange continues and despite Obi Wan's insistence, Yoda still remains in opposition, primarily attacking Anakin and the "danger" surrounding him. When that doesn't work out, Yoda then turns his efforts to attacking Obi Wan's character while taking a shot at Qui Gon as well.

Meh.
Yoda is voicing his opposition to the decision. He feels he knows best and is articulating that. Obi-Wan already knew how Yoda felt about the boy, why would he change his mind now ?


Then, out of the blue, he tells us that the Council has decided to let Obi Wan train Anakin. Two possibilities exist here:

1. The council did not decide this in their previous meeting and Yoda took it upon himself to make a decision for and speak for the Council. Or...

2. The council did decide this in their previous meeting and Yoda was trying to circumvent their decision in a last ditch effort when he had Obi Wan behind closed doors.

How would that be a bad thing? If he could honestly convince Obi-Wan that it was such a bad idea, why should the Council take such offense? They said no in the first place, so it's not like they are so set in their ways. I don't find any problems with Yoda's character here.


The only problem I have with it is that in AOTC, Yoda seems perfectly content with Anakin being trained and being let loose upon the galaxy, even when Obi Wan expresses his own concerns about it. And being the one individual who has worked closest with the kid, one would think that Obi Wan's opinion would be trusted. But Yoda just sluffs it off with some disparaging comment about arrogant Jedi. There is a strange disconnect between Yoda's adamant dissapproval of Anakin in Ep I and his willingness to let the arrogance go so easily in Episode II.

But this is representative of what I see as a large part of the problem with the Prequels. The characters are oddly inconsistent. From one sequence to the next, their motivations and decisions often don't match previous attitudes. Such as Obi Wan's own support of the Council's decision in TPM, to his sudden willingness to follow the wishes of a dead man, back to his doubts about Anakin. Or Anakin's frequent rantings against Obi Wan even when he admits to knowing better. One of the major points that the films was trying to express was that the downfall of the Republic was due to a rampant indecisiveness on the part of the Senate. However, not only is that not really played out in any meaningful way, we instead see that it is the Jedi who are repeatedly inconsistent in their decisions and opinions.

Yeah, it's been a decade. Things change, people's perspectives change. Yoda has not seen any huge problems from Anakin so it's not unthinkable that his opinion could change over ten years.

2-1B
11-27-2003, 04:30 PM
And, hey, look at it this way. If it wasn't for people like me, this place would be filled with something like this:

SSG MEMBER 1: Gee, wasn't it swell when so and so did that and blah blah blah?

SSG MEMBER 2: Yeah, it was really nifty, wasn't it. :) I'm so happy with everything. I can hardly wait for more!

:zzz:




;)


Arrogant.

Tycho and I are two of the biggest prequel lovers around here and we can get into some fine disagreements.

The only thing more :zzz: boring than your above scenario is the tired way in which you are trying to paint an overgeneralization. You just complained about character assassination against yourself yet you will post the above. Cute. :)

stillakid
11-27-2003, 11:41 PM
"1) I think that Yoda already knows Palpatine is the Dark Lord. Mace might also, but I'm not sure.
Interesting thought. Could be true. I mean, who else could it really be? But the people in the Star Wars galaxy have been shown to be afflicted with that "I can't tell that Clark Kent is really Superman because of the glasses" thing before, so the obvious to us isn't always with them.


"2) I think Mace acted without the authorization of the Council before, and Yoda knows it, and is very subtly accusing him of being arrogant like Kenobi's padawan, to think he knew best without the approval of the council.*
Is that conjecture or is there an instance that I'm not aware of when Mace would have done this? :confused: I have indeed often wondered just why Yoda responded to Obi Wan's statement in that way. It does seem to be off the cuff and somewhat innappropriate.


"Here's what I think is going on:

(DURING TPM, or around that time, offscreen)

Dooku is Anakin's father and Mace Windu's friend.
Well, I haven't ever really commented on this suggestion of yours before but I think you're dreaming. I won't say that it couldn't be true, but I wouldn't bet the house on it. We'll all find out soon enough, but there just isn't any kind of plausible leadup in the currently available story to make this a viable possibility for pre-film speculation beyond trying to plug the innumerable holes left in the wake of TPM.


"With the arrival of Anakin to the temple, and the midichlorian test, which points to Jedi records matching Dooku's, Mace decides it's best for Dooku to leave the temple so as to not interfere with Anakin's training. Not hard, since Dooku's never around the temple anyway or Obi-Wan would have met him before. But Jedi are not supposed to have children in the first place, and like the baseball coach that's too hard on their son, there's no way the Jedi will allow a parent to train a child.

The Sith have re-emerged, based on Qui-Gon's report after the Tatooine attack. Dooku, with back knowledge that he came from a wealthy family, can attract the Sith who must be dabbling in (at least) the GREEDY Trade Federation's affairs, on account of the Naboo conflict. Dooku ingratiates himself with the Trade Federation, so that they can keep Nute out of jail on Dooku's money and attorneys (and 4 trials in the Supreme Court). Darth Sidious notices Dooku helping the Trade Federation, knows his old history with the Jedi, knows he's supposedly left the order, disgruntled with the Republic, might know he has a son, definitely knows he was Yoda's personal apprentice. All useful. Sidious knows he was a Jedi Master, but thinks the Dark Side will corrupt everyone, and that Dooku can be killed if he becomes troublesome.

One of his early errands is to oversee the creation of a Clone Army. Dooku recruits Jango Fett, etc.

Mace and Dooku meet sometimes, exchange info sometime. Mace might've known about the Clone Army, but Yoda didn't.

Mace is arrogant if he lets this situation get out of control without taking it to the Jedi Council. Dooku is a fool to think he could handle the dark side.

Many Jedi die at Geonosis. Dooku's made his choice. Mace failed to stop him.

The Jedi will be blamed for creating the Clones and a state of galactic war. Even if Yoda knows Palpatine is the Sith Lord, they can't attack him without proof, or they will be blamed for trying to seize total power, and assasinate a democratically elected Chancellor. Eventually, Mace appears to try this in E3. Palpatine will use this as evidence the Jedi are power-hungry and call for their elimination, as they have betrayed the Republic. With his emergency powers and the Separatists threats, he'll call for unification under a new "peaceful and prosperous Empire."

By killing Dooku, Anakin stopped both the Jedi's chance at having evidence Palpatine was the Sith Lord, and he murdered his own father in his ignorance, which he will never forgive the Jedi for not enlightening him on his true lineage (and he learns his dear Mother lied to him, of course).

On top of that, with everything he's know becoming a lie, his lashing out and killing Mace (with Palpatine's help), Padme's betrayal of her distraught husband's location (so Obi-Wan can presumably help him), Anakin's denial he killed Padme (and that wasn't Obi-Wan's fault also :rolleyes: ) he's exceedingly dangerous, but Obi-Wan puts him down in a terrible battle.

With the arrival of Darth Vader on the scene, the only reason Anakin will obey Palpatine, is he finds out Luke survived, and with the Jedi wiped out, and the Sith Lord all powerful, he makes a deal to protect his son, and trades his life (his loyalty to death) to Palpatine, for the unconditional protection of his son, who he knowingly sends with Obi-Wan to Tatooine, a place he knows he'll never return to because of his tragedy there (his mom, the Tuskens, his failure and his broken promise to never fail again).

Of course the red herring reason, will allow for some speculation why if someone else is Darth Vader, he lets Obi-Wan take Luke and go.

Possibly if Grevious was once a Jedi, and Obi-Wan spares his life, and he is honor-bound as a warrior to owe him for that... (red herring one)

Or if it's implied that Dooku could have survived, and sustained such wounds that he required the black suit, and lets Obi-Wan go to take care of his grandson, regretful the Sith got so far in spite of his great plan he had with Mace a long time ago. (red herring two)

Or if Obi-Wan is rightfully given a new young apprentice, who has something against Anakin, who still might've been turned to the Dark Side, but had compassion for his old master. (red herring three)

Well, like I said, it's all speculation and anything is possible, but that story seems far too convoluted for most filmmakers and for George in particular. He's not that deep to think of such intricacies of plot and intrigue, much less pull them off (explain them in any clear way) in two hours or so.

All I can say is don't get your hopes up. :)

stillakid
11-27-2003, 11:59 PM
Meh.
Yoda is voicing his opposition to the decision. He feels he knows best and is articulating that. Obi-Wan already knew how Yoda felt about the boy, why would he change his mind now ?

So why should Yoda keep harping on it? What's the point of George including that exchange if nothing is meant to come of it? Obi Wan already knows Yoda's attitude. More importantly, so does the audience, so why waste time revisiting old information?


How would that be a bad thing? If he could honestly convince Obi-Wan that it was such a bad idea, why should the Council take such offense? They said no in the first place, so it's not like they are so set in their ways. I don't find any problems with Yoda's character here.
Huh?! The Coucil made a decision...or didn't they? Or did they send Yoda to a closed door meeting with the conditional okay as long as Yoda at least tried to talk Obi Wan out of it? Hypothetically, assuming that it was a unanimous decision from the Council to okay this training, why would they then say to Yoda, "Hey, we think it's alright to train this dangerous kid, but if you can talk Obi out of it, then we're alright with that too." That's pretty much what you're saying here. I don't understand why this is alright. :confused:




Yeah, it's been a decade. Things change, people's perspectives change. Yoda has not seen any huge problems from Anakin so it's not unthinkable that his opinion could change over ten years.
True, yet this speaks volumes about how much he trusts Obi Wan's opinion if what you suggest is true. If nothing else, the only person who's attitude toward Anakin hasn't changed has been Obi Wan. He didn't want Qui Gon to train the kid, he didn't really want to do it, and maintains his doubts throughout AOTC. But the Council is suddenly okay with it between the middle of TPM and the end and Yoda maintains his opposition until mid-AOTC when suddenly he's cool with it. But I suppose if Padme can magically recognize the similarities between Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christenson, then Yoda can also ignore his misgivings that he first had about lil' Ani.



Arrogant.

Tycho and I are two of the biggest prequel lovers around here and we can get into some fine disagreements.

The only thing more :zzz: boring than your above scenario is the tired way in which you are trying to paint an overgeneralization. You just complained about character assassination against yourself yet you will post the above. Cute. :)
What was so arrogant about that? Sure it was an overgeneralization, but it was also meant to be cute. :D I believe that I bring up some valid points worthy of discussion as do many others here. On the other hand, there are a handful of people here who would rather see no discussion of any kind that smacks of negativity toward any element of the saga. "Just enjoy it for what it is," I've seen time and time again. "Quit nitpicking," they say. "You're arrogant and don't listen to what we say." "You're just arguing to argue." :rolleyes: Okay, well, if we stop that, then what's there left to talk about? How great everything is? Where the 3 packs of Clonetroopers got released this week? It's a fan site, so it follows that all that is cool and expected, but there should be room for more. You're right, that "scenario" was boring and was meant to be so. That was exactly the point.

2-1B
11-28-2003, 01:37 AM
So why should Yoda keep harping on it? What's the point of George including that exchange if nothing is meant to come of it? Obi Wan already knows Yoda's attitude. More importantly, so does the audience, so why waste time revisiting old information?


Huh?! The Coucil made a decision...or didn't they? Or did they send Yoda to a closed door meeting with the conditional okay as long as Yoda at least tried to talk Obi Wan out of it? Hypothetically, assuming that it was a unanimous decision from the Council to okay this training, why would they then say to Yoda, "Hey, we think it's alright to train this dangerous kid, but if you can talk Obi out of it, then we're alright with that too." That's pretty much what you're saying here. I don't understand why this is alright. :confused:

We knew Yoda was against it early on in the movie, yes.
Why revisit it?
Because earlier in the movie when Yoda was against it, so was the Council. Since then, the council has agreed to let Obi-Wan train Anakin.
And remember, Mace and Yoda said that "young Skywalker's fate will be decided later" (or something similar).

Sooooooo, the way I take it, the whole Council was wary of it at the beginning as was Yoda. By the end of the movie, Yoda was still against it but the Council as a whole has agreed to it.

Again, I don't even take Yoda's speech as a plea to change Obi-Wan's conviction so much as it a chance for him to voice his dissent. That's all. :)



True, yet this speaks volumes about how much he trusts Obi Wan's opinion if what you suggest is true. If nothing else, the only person who's attitude toward Anakin hasn't changed has been Obi Wan. He didn't want Qui Gon to train the kid, he didn't really want to do it, and maintains his doubts throughout AOTC. But the Council is suddenly okay with it between the middle of TPM and the end and Yoda maintains his opposition until mid-AOTC when suddenly he's cool with it. But I suppose if Padme can magically recognize the similarities between Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christenson, then Yoda can also ignore his misgivings that he first had about lil' Ani.

Uh-buh ? ? ? :confused: M'lady "magically recognized the similarities between Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christenson" ? ? ? Where the hell did you pull that from? :confused:

I thought it was clear that since she hadn't seen Ani in ten years, it might be safe to assume that the young buck standing behind Obi-Wan was Anakin (since last time m'lady saw them, they were standing together as master and padawan). Hence her pleasant surprise when she looks at him and the moist reaction he gets from her. ;) Even Anakin said "she hardly even recognized me, Jar Jar." So it wasn't a magical recognition, just putting two and two together. :)

I don't think Yoda ignored his misgivings, he just hasn't seen much from Anakin to support his initial fears.
As for Obers, well no he was not in favor of the training but I think he was heartfelt in his efforts to train Anakin after Qui-gon died. So I don't think you're 100% right in saying that Obi "hasn't" changed . . . but it's still a good point. :)


What was so arrogant about that? Sure it was an overgeneralization, but it was also meant to be cute. :D I believe that I bring up some valid points worthy of discussion as do many others here. On the other hand, there are a handful of people here who would rather see no discussion of any kind that smacks of negativity toward any element of the saga. "Just enjoy it for what it is," I've seen time and time again. "Quit nitpicking," they say. "You're arrogant and don't listen to what we say." "You're just arguing to argue." :rolleyes: Okay, well, if we stop that, then what's there left to talk about? How great everything is? Where the 3 packs of Clonetroopers got released this week? It's a fan site, so it follows that all that is cool and expected, but there should be room for more. You're right, that "scenario" was boring and was meant to be so. That was exactly the point.

Hey !
I already said it was "cute." :D

But you yourself just said "a handful of people." So that's why I don't like that generalization to make a point.
And besides, someone telling you that you are "just arguing for the sake of arguing" is no different IMO than if you told someone (after he/she explained why he/she felt a certain way) that it's possible only because they want it to be that way.
Both approaches are detrimental to an honest discussion of what we have watched in these movies, where we are coming from, and why we come to our particular conclusions. :)

stillakid
11-28-2003, 02:17 AM
And remember, Mace and Yoda said that "young Skywalker's fate will be decided later" (or something similar).
Unfortunately, I don't remember that. I'll have to go back and take another look. :)


Uh-buh ? ? ? :confused: M'lady "magically recognized the similarities between Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christenson" ? ? ? Where the hell did you pull that from? :confused:
Well, I pulled it off the celluloid. She didn't say, "and you must be Anakin. Remember me from 10 years ago?" No, she had this sudden look of shock that usually only comes from unexpectedly recognizing someone, "Ani, is that you!? :eek: " Now, how on Coruscant was she really going to pull that out of her tight little bum? I chalk it up to poor artistic necessity to keep the story moving along. As it is, his childhood crush and her subsequent "love" isn't all too convincing, so George had to shoehorn in that Padme recognizes him to allow the audience to assume that she too had some kind of latent attraction to a youngster. Get Michael Jackson on the line to help explain this further. :D




Hey !
I already said it was "cute." :D

But you yourself just said "a handful of people." So that's why I don't like that generalization to make a point.
And besides, someone telling you that you are "just arguing for the sake of arguing" is no different IMO than if you told someone (after he/she explained why he/she felt a certain way) that it's possible only because they want it to be that way.
Both approaches are detrimental to an honest discussion of what we have watched in these movies, where we are coming from, and why we come to our particular conclusions. :)

Look, all I can say is that when I see a situation where "likeliness" overwhelms opinion, I'm prone to call a spade a spade. As in the TPM scene with Yoda and Obi Wan, I can definitely concede that there are two ways to look at it. I take the literal path of least resistance and arrive at a very likely conclusion. Others choose to "extrapolate" for the filmmaker to close the gap and call both "opinions." Or the infamous, did Qui Gon steal Ober's thunder question. Certainly, one can mush the details around enough to arrive at a situation in which the film begins to make sense, but when taken at face value, there is no question that GL let continuity fall by the wayside. I don't deny that others have opinions regarding the way a particular scene plays to them, but some very specific elements to this story exist at face value in a manner which contradicts those opinions. Whatever the case, I never begrudge anyone the pleasure of viewing the saga or filling in blanks where they so choose in order to complete their enjoyment of it. I simply remain staunchly stubborn to joining in the idea that there are no absolutes when it comes to artistic creation. Art is not automatically open for personal opinion. Artists the world 'round in every place and time have created with some express intent in mind. Despite that, people will always continue to take from art what they will no matter the original intent. Once it's out there, the author can't control it anymore, that's why they have to make themselves as crystal clear as possible before release. The insistent argument leveled at me personally is that EVERYTHING is an opinion. There are no facts nor absolutes. George created something with no specific purpose in mind, neither as a whole nor regarding any of its elements. To that I say :rolleyes: . Of course he did, just like everyone else that came before him. And to that end, I try to examine what is really there and arrive at the most plausible conclusions, not based on what I want to see, but based on what he created, for good or bad. The problem here at SSG is that when those conclusion collide with popular fan "opinion," the firing squad marches out and attacks the messenger and the methodology instead of really looking at what is being said and how those conclusions came to be. If we could all do that, we could have a real discussion, instead of drifting inevitably into that silly scenario of "swellness" that I typed a couple posts back. :)

2-1B
11-28-2003, 02:29 AM
You don't want to see Padme recognize Anakin so you mush it around to fit your desire that George shoehorned that part in. You have a personal opinion that George wanted Padme to have a latent attraction to a youngster. :)

You're wrong about George's intent but whatever helps you to not enjoy the movies, go for it ! :)

arctangent
11-28-2003, 03:55 AM
As in the TPM scene with Yoda and Obi Wan, I can definitely concede that there are two ways to look at it.

there is a third way of looking at that scene. yoda, having conceeded that the council wishes anakin to be trained by obi wan could be trying to talk him out of it to test obi wan. as someone else mentioned, obi wan was initially against anakin's training but he swore to the dying qui-gon that he would train the boy. so yoda could just be testing obi wan's resolve in this matter to make sure he will comit fully to training anakin. after all, obi wan has only just been made a jedi knight so he is not the most experienced jedi around.

stillakid
11-28-2003, 01:46 PM
You don't want to see Padme recognize Anakin so you mush it around to fit your desire that George shoehorned that part in. You have a personal opinion that George wanted Padme to have a latent attraction to a youngster. :)

You're wrong about George's intent but whatever helps you to not enjoy the movies, go for it ! :)

I don't need to prove a negative. It's up to you and George to prove what is actually there. What the scene shows is the first meeting that Padme and Anakin have had since Anakin looked liked Jake Lloyd. I'd be lying if I said that the resemblence between Jake and Hayden was uncanny and so would anyone else. Nothing about Hayden's appearance nor behavior smacked even a little bit of the lil' Ani that Padme once knew a decade ago. So, yeah, I am not out of line one bit in saying that George shoehorned that bit in.

That covers the recognition portion of the scene. Onto the attraction bit. George felt the need to hurry this relationship along because, aside from the very minor schoolboy crush one might construe from TPM, there has been really no attraction between those characters as of the beginning of AOTC. With a detective story to get onto (Obers), the necessity to rush into the love story was immediate. Padme and Anakin don't have a lot of time to waste in getting to know one another again before the stuff hits the fan, so George clearly had no alternative (as far as he saw it) other than having the girl somehow immediately recognize this stranger as the same person who used to literally look up at her. It is conjecture, highly plausible conjecture though, that this romantic necessity was the reason George had Padme recognize Anakin so quickly and assuredly. If there is another reason, I haven't thought of it yet.

stillakid
11-28-2003, 01:51 PM
there is a third way of looking at that scene. yoda, having conceeded that the council wishes anakin to be trained by obi wan could be trying to talk him out of it to test obi wan. as someone else mentioned, obi wan was initially against anakin's training but he swore to the dying qui-gon that he would train the boy. so yoda could just be testing obi wan's resolve in this matter to make sure he will comit fully to training anakin. after all, obi wan has only just been made a jedi knight so he is not the most experienced jedi around.


There's a fourth way to look at it. Neither of them wanted to do it, but they knew that Anakin was watching from offscreen (hey, it could have happened. They never said it didn't).

There's a fifth way too. Yoda is trying to make Obers think that he doesn't agree, but he knows that Obers knows the ruse, so knowing that he pretends to disagree with the Council, but he also knows that the Council will find out, so he has to pretend to agree at the end while maintaining that he disagrees .....

There's probably a fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, and ninth way too. The point here is that while 100 different fans may come up with 100 different possibilities, the chances are that George had only one in mind. Removing the implausible and unlikely will narrow the field down the most likely choices. But since you guys seem to have the hotline to the Ranch and found out that George intended nothing at all, all of this is immaterial. What else is there to talk about?

2-1B
11-29-2003, 02:54 AM
Well, I pulled it off the celluloid. She didn't say, "and you must be Anakin. Remember me from 10 years ago?" No, she had this sudden look of shock that usually only comes from unexpectedly recognizing someone, "Ani, is that you!? :eek: "

"Ani? My goodness, you've grown."

I already gave a perfect scenario (which is onscreen) that shows Padme quite possibly had no physical recognition of Anakin. It's the fact that they (Jake/Hayden) don't look much alike (because of a 10 year gap) that lends to her surprise in the first place.

Even Anakin says "she hardly even recognized me, Jar Jar."


Look, all I can say is that when I see a situation where "likeliness" overwhelms opinion, I'm prone to call a spade a spade. As in the TPM scene with Yoda and Obi Wan, I can definitely concede that there are two ways to look at it.

Or one way, since it's pretty clear that Yoda was not making the decisions and passing them on behalf of the council. :D


I take the literal path of least resistance and arrive at a very likely conclusion. Others choose to "extrapolate" for the filmmaker to close the gap and call both "opinions." Or the infamous, did Qui Gon steal Ober's thunder question. Certainly, one can mush the details around enough to arrive at a situation in which the film begins to make sense, but when taken at face value, there is no question that GL let continuity fall by the wayside.

I have a few problems with this.
First of all, there's no "revelation" in your claim that the details were mushed. I never argued that. We all know that Qui-Gon was added late in production and yes he did steal some of Obi-Wan's thunder. George didn't let continuity fall by the wayside - as the artist, he DECIDED that the impressions given by ROTJ could be realigned to let him show more of the master/student/whatever thing with Qui/Obi/Ani.
Secondly, what's all that about "artist intent" ? ? ? Well George is the "artist" here and if he wanted to add to the background hinted at during ROTJ, then what's the big deal? :confused: He's obviously aware of the impression given by ROTJ but as the artist, he has more to say about it.

Hey, I myself nearly vomit at the new Greedo shooting first scene. I'm not saying George always makes the right decisions (my opinion on Threepio in the AOTC droid factory is just as negative as the Greedo thing. :dead: ). But I feel I am being quite honest in my evaluations of the changes/decisions George makes.


I don't deny that others have opinions regarding the way a particular scene plays to them, but some very specific elements to this story exist at face value in a manner which contradicts those opinions.

Yeah, like Yoda speaking on behalf of The Council ?


Whatever the case, I never begrudge anyone the pleasure of viewing the saga or filling in blanks where they so choose in order to complete their enjoyment of it.

I'm the same way. I don't begrudge anyone the lack of pleasure from the saga as long as they can see to their own non-enjoyment of it. :)


I simply remain staunchly stubborn to joining in the idea that there are no absolutes when it comes to artistic creation. Art is not automatically open for personal opinion. Artists the world 'round in every place and time have created with some express intent in mind. Despite that, people will always continue to take from art what they will no matter the original intent. Once it's out there, the author can't control it anymore, that's why they have to make themselves as crystal clear as possible before release. The insistent argument leveled at me personally is that EVERYTHING is an opinion. There are no facts nor absolutes. George created something with no specific purpose in mind, neither as a whole nor regarding any of its elements. To that I say :rolleyes: . Of course he did, just like everyone else that came before him.

But when George DIDN'T leave something "crystal clear" (Obi "finding" Ani), well you take that as being a hard cold fact. Yet when George DOES put it onscreen "crystal clear" of how Obi-Wan came to know Anakin, well it's a contradiction because it doesn't fit with what you were led to believe in ROTJ.


And to that end, I try to examine what is really there and arrive at the most plausible conclusions, not based on what I want to see, but based on what he created, for good or bad.

Sure you do, you wanted to see Obi-Wan find Anakin. You (and all of us) were led to believe that Obi-Wan "found" Anakin but it never says 'when I first found or discovered him", it says "when I first knew him." So George as artist allows himself the creative license to play around with that and mush it up without any hard solid contradiction. Some of us "get it" and others don't. Like I already said, I won't begrudge anybody their option to not enjoy the films.


The problem here at SSG is that when those conclusion collide with popular fan "opinion," the firing squad marches out and attacks the messenger

What popular opinion? It seems to me that the majority of people here find the prequels lackluster and not as good as the OT.


and the methodology instead of really looking at what is being said and how those conclusions came to be. If we could all do that, we could have a real discussion, instead of drifting inevitably into that silly scenario of "swellness" that I typed a couple posts back. :)

Not unlike telling people they are wrong about their opinions and looking through rose-colored glasses.

Real discussion:

member a): I love Qui-Gon and the fact that he found Anakin. It sets up the pattern of master/padawan quite well and opens the Saga up a bit more.

member b): I hate Qui-Gon and the fact that he found Anakin. ROTJ led me to believe that Obi-Wan himself found Anakin and I think the story would work better that way.

Unreal discussion:

member a): I love Qui-Gon and the fact that he found Anakin. It sets up the pattern of master/padawan quite well and opens the Saga up a bit more.

member b): Qui-Gon is a contradiction because ROTJ clearly states factually that Obi-Wan found Anakin. You fail to see the contradiction and only see what you want to see. Your rose colored glasses allow you to ignore a factual break in continuity.

stillakid, I don't deny that there are some absolute facts in the Saga, I just think that sometimes we take areas open for interpretation and mislabel them as fact.

I think it's pretty clear that Yoda in TPM was not making up decisions on behalf of the Council yet you think there are a few ways of looking at it. Well I feel that way about the Ben thing in ROTJ.

You asked "what's left to discuss?" and I think these are some good examples of what we can discuss. It's fun to break apart the dialogue and see what we can make of it. You know, for all that talk of "artist intent", maybe these movies aren't very well made to begin with. Thus lending itself to argument and debate. I don't think we'll have a hard time finding stuff "to discuss" anytime soon. :crazed:

Padme is hot. Isn't that "swell" ? :D :D :D

Tycho
11-29-2003, 03:05 AM
Thank you Caesar. I agree with you completely.

2-1B
11-29-2003, 03:18 AM
Thank you Caesar. I agree with you completely.

Was it the part about Padme being hot? :D

Tycho
11-29-2003, 01:24 PM
That too, but I was mostly commenting on your analysis of the movie.

Jaff has started a very good thread that's only on the initial scene right now: Scene by Scene: The Phantom Menace.

He's analyzing the movie in a very logical progression. I think you and Stillakid might enjoy the thread.

We began with discussing the title scroll up (and we're presently still there) talking about the "taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems," etc. and what that means.

Anyway, I think you guys would like the thread, and can then keep this one about Episode 3 as much as possible.

arctangent
12-01-2003, 05:29 AM
There's a fourth way to look at it. Neither of them wanted to do it, but they knew that Anakin was watching from offscreen (hey, it could have happened. They never said it didn't).

There's a fifth way too. Yoda is trying to make Obers think that he doesn't agree, but he knows that Obers knows the ruse, so knowing that he pretends to disagree with the Council, but he also knows that the Council will find out, so he has to pretend to agree at the end while maintaining that he disagrees .....

There's probably a fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, and ninth way too. The point here is that while 100 different fans may come up with 100 different possibilities, the chances are that George had only one in mind. Removing the implausible and unlikely will narrow the field down the most likely choices. But since you guys seem to have the hotline to the Ranch and found out that George intended nothing at all, all of this is immaterial. What else is there to talk about?

indeed, there are many ways to look at this scene, although it was you who previously said there was only one way. i don't have a hotline to the ranch, as you put it, but i don't understand why george would have the characters say one thing, whilst meaning something completely different.

yoda feels that the training of anakin is wrong and doesn't agree with it but he has been outvoted by the rest of the council, so as a member of a democratic organisation, he goes with the wishes of the majority. as we know, ultimately yoda is right - it leads to the fall of anakin, the creation of darth vader and the near extermination of the jedi.

stillakid
12-01-2003, 11:48 AM
indeed, there are many ways to look at this scene, although it was you who previously said there was only one way. i don't have a hotline to the ranch, as you put it, but i don't understand why george would have the characters say one thing, whilst meaning something completely different.

yoda feels that the training of anakin is wrong and doesn't agree with it but he has been outvoted by the rest of the council, so as a member of a democratic organisation, he goes with the wishes of the majority. as we know, ultimately yoda is right - it leads to the fall of anakin, the creation of darth vader and the near extermination of the jedi.


No, I never said there was just one way. I said that there was one accurate way in most cases. All the rest are just wishful thinking, rationalizations, or stopgap measures to fill the time until a definitive answer can be heard from the creator. So what I suggest is that in lue of having the creator at hand to answer a potentially confusing question concerning a story point, one can use literary comprehension skills, deductive reasoning, and common sense to arrive at the most likely conclusion.

In a situation like the Yoda/Obi scene described above, it is quite clear that the conclusion that you suggest is meant to be the correct one, however I maintain that it takes an amount of forgiveness toward the poor writing to ignore the actual outcome (and conclusion) of that scene to arrive at the intended outcome of that scene.