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View Full Version : Why I think Owen may not remember C-3PO.



Boba Fetish
01-05-2004, 03:00 AM
Sorry if this topic has been beaten to death, but I find this current inconsisteny between the OT and the PT something I can not let go so I came up with a possibility that I wanted to get your guys' feedback on.

Why doesn't Owen recognize 3PO in ANH? I can't see Owen forgetting the name and voice of a droid that belonged to his stepmother who met a very tragic demise, irregardless of the fact his plating changed to gold. Also, the same day Anakin leaves after uncovering his mother's body, 3PO leaves with him. Then, in the not in the too distant future, he receives the son of Anakin which should serve as another reminder of the day 3PO left their homestead. I think these events and all details associated with them would serve as lasting memories.

My thought is this. If someone saw it fit to erase C-3PO's memory, maybe someone else saw it fit to stunt Owen's memory as well. How would this happen? Well if a Jedi could use a Jedi mind trick to temporarily cause someone to overlook the obvious, who's to say a Jedi couldn't use the same trick to selectively delete certain memories from one's conscious. Say, like Obi-Wan for instance, decided that Owen should forget certain connections between him and Anakin, then waved his hand, and whalla, Owen forgets. Why it would be a problem for Owen to remember who 3-PO was is speculative, but I hope Lucas explains this issue.

What are your thoughts? Is this poppycock or is it plausible? Give your input or theories, and like I said, sorry if this topic's been covered to the point of redundancy.

Beast
01-05-2004, 03:15 AM
Who says he doesn't remember C-3PO? Maybe that's why he was testing 3PO's memories with the questions. And he did try to shut him up, when he was offering his name. And it's clear from C-3PO's words that he doesn't remember Tatooine, his first job, or Uncle Owen. So no need for Owen to worry about such things.

And even if he doesn't, it doesn't mean he's had his memories messed with. Droids like C-3PO are very commen in the Star Wars universe. Even that particular voice is commen. They're like a car or a toaster. Can you seriously tell me that you could recognize a car or toaster that was in your home, and had been totally repainted since the last time you saw it more then 21 years ago? :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

The 'Xir
01-05-2004, 01:16 PM
It's funny, sometimes Lucas appears to be very indepth in the details of his movies, and then in other aspects within them he falls short! I have gotten the impression over these prequel making years, that he knows the basic story he wants to tell, and he is cookie cutting them out as fast as he can, while milking them on the marketing end, and why we have to wait 3 years betwen movies.
Based on that Idea, I'm sure Lucas will be satisfied with just keeping the simple explanation of the different colored platings! And dismiss whatever possible logical arguments against that explanation! :neutral:

Beast
01-05-2004, 01:27 PM
There is no logical arguments against that explanation. It's 21 years since the last time Owen saw C-3PO. And he was Shmi's droid anyway, so it's not like Owen would take a lot of intrest in him. Remember, Luke is one of the few people that actually treat droids like something other then just an tool or object. Owen from his dialogue about the droids in ANH, shows that he doesn't see them as anything more then that either. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

B'Omarr Monkey
01-05-2004, 10:23 PM
I think it really comes down to some degenerative brain condition caused by the same phenomenon which causes Owen and Beru to age 40+ years in the 20 years since they last saw C-3PO.

Of course, if there's any truth, and why wouldn't there be, that Lucas is replacing all of the footage of Shaw as Anakin from ROTJ with newly shot scenes of Christensen as Anakin in ROTJ, then he will probably do the same thing with Owen and Beru, and heck, why not Obi-Wan, since he clearly ages over thrirty years between SW III and ANW.

The whole timetable is bogus, as is the fact that Lucas clearly got caught up in all that Joseph Campbell stuff attributed to the movies and forgot that what he initially set out to do was make a Flash Gordon movie.

stillakid
01-05-2004, 11:06 PM
I think that anybody could rationalize this one out (and there is proof right here in the thread), but the most accurate explanation is that the Prequels are Expanded Universe material where continuity doesn't apply.

The reasoning is this: In the soon to come Episode III, Obi Wan Kenobi has absolutely no justification for taking the Luke-baby to Tatooine at all. The point is to hide the kid out until he is old enough to begin the training so that he will be "a new hope." (See, it's even in the title) (side note: Old Ben has to wait until Luke is older so that his accelerated training...minus mention of Midichlorians :rolleyes: ... won't create tremors in the Force before his young body would be able to fend off attack from adult enemies).

So anyway, as we've already seen in the two prequels thus far, Obi Wan has spent very little time on that planet, knows virtually nothing about it, and has no reason to know anything at all about this trailerpark family that is ever-so-loosely related to the baby. So even if Anakin did tell Obi Wan about the Lars people, and even if Padme does ask that Luke be taken there (whatever reason might be thought up, it still won't make sense, so save it), Obi Wan still would be out of his mind to hide the "new hope" in a place that both Anakin/Darth and Palpatine/Emperor would be likely to search. It is only logical that the hitherto sane-minded Obi Wan (and hasn't lied to anybody even once yet) wouldn't dream of hiding the kid on a planet that he doesn't know, with people he doesn't know, in a place that is likely to be recalled by the evil people. It is for this reason (and a few others) that the continuity between the Prequels and the OT is proven to be inconsistent therefore the only possible avenue left is to label the Prequels as Expanded Universe material and move on. :)

Bottom line is that Owen wasn't "testing" 3PO :rolleyes: That's a good one though! The "explanations" are getting more creative. :) But to be fair, even if Owen ever did have C3PO in his younger days, because these protocol droids are so common, he really would have little reason to suspect that he was seeing this one for the second time in his life.

Boba Fetish
01-05-2004, 11:20 PM
Jar Jar- I concur with you that Owen's inability to recognize C-3PO may be due to time and the prevelance of similar protocol droids, but from the cinematic point of view, this inconsistency appears as sloppy storytelling. Many of my friends and aquaintances, who are softcore Star Wars fans at best, had even scratched their head in wonderment as to why Owen does not recognize 3PO. I think the average viewer is going to have a narrower field of vision and not consider posibilities such as the fact that 3PO is your run of the mill droid that has multiple counterparts just like a toaster or a car. For the story's sake, I think people want answers to why key characters don't recognize each other and answering this is what will establish the dynamism between the intertwining histories of these two. It will also lend credebility to the director, in this case Lucas, that he researched his past works in oder to avoid potential loopholes. Here's another possibility. Maybe Owen does recognize 3PO, and that is the reason he so quickly requests Luke to erase his memory, just in case.

Also, yes, Owen does not regard droids very much, but Obi Wan does.
He even adresses R2 as his little friend in ANH. You'd think after seeing the message Leia put in there that he would put two and two together and say, "My, perhaps this is R2, Padme's droid before she died. He must have stayed with her daughter and Bail after I left for Tatooine." So in otherwords, I think Lucas also needs to adress this inconsisteny to give more power to his tale. :)

B'Omarr Monkey- I do believe that Lucas will "not" be replacing footage of Sebastian Shaw with new footage of Hayden Christensen. I think it was dispelled as a rumor that some ultra dork had come up with. In the remote chance it does happen, I will be buying as many copies in bulk that I can and will have them burned. :rolleyes: No offense Hayden.

stillakid
01-06-2004, 11:38 AM
Here's another possibility. Maybe Owen does recognize 3PO, and that is the reason he so quickly requests Luke to erase his memory, just in case.

That won't work because the ANH lines really show that Owen is reacting to the news that R2 mentioned Obi Wan Kenobi. With the original continuity, Owen was the more stable, stay at home son in the family and didn't rush off to "bigger and better things," like his brother, Obi Wan. When Obi Wan needs a place to stash the kid, he picks a place which is waaay off the beaten path where the bad guys won't just happen upon them. Tatooine is the perfect place because it isn't overrun by the Empire yet and his brother, Owen will be able to raise the boy quietly. Obi can live on the outskirts of Luke's life and keep an eye on things until he's ready. With Luke getting on in years, it's possible that Owen held out hope that if he could keep Luke involved with the farm and away from that crazy koot of a brother, he might keep Luke safe. Afterall, the "war" is far away from Tatooine and their farm. If they don't draw attention to themselves, they can live a long and satisfying life.

But the droids change that. Suddenly, out of nowhere, Luke pops into dinner and announces that the droids know the name of Owen's brother. Owen doesn't want to tip his hand that he knows more about Luke's lineage than he lets on, so he plays it cool and calmly tells Luke to go have the droid's memories erased.

Well, that's the way the story played before Lucas's reimagining of the continuity. Now it doesn't make much sense at all without significant twisting and turning of the plot. As I mentioned before, if Owen has no relation to Obi Wan, and Anakin originated from Tatooine, then why on earth would he choose that place to hide the galaxies only hope? Obi doesn't know the place, he doesn't know the people. For all he knows, the Lar's family will rat him out for some reward money or something.

Bottom line is that this is just frustrating. George didn't have to muck this up but chose to anyhow. Why? Why?

Beast
01-06-2004, 11:45 AM
It was never canon continuty, that Owen and Obi-Wan were brothers. Why do you think it was cut from ROTJ in the first place. The novels are not official canon. If it doesn't appear on-screen, it's not a canon fact. All this is, is another example of nitpicking a story element to death, just to try to tear down the prequels. It's really becoming a sad and repetitive pattern from you Stillakid. :rolleyes:

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
01-06-2004, 11:50 AM
It was never canon continuty, that Owen and Obi-Wan were brothers. Why do you think it was cut from ROTJ in the first place. The novels are not official canon. If it doesn't appear on-screen, it's not a canon fact. All this is, is another example of nitpicking a story element to death, just to try to tear down the prequels. It's really becoming a sad and repetitive pattern from you Stillakid. :rolleyes:

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

No, it wasn't "canon," BUT it made complete sense...which is why it was written as such in the first place. This "new" idea of George's doesn't make sense at all given everything else that has been filmed and shown.

You're suggesting that it's "sad" to request quality in our literature, filmmaking, and art? I'll tell you what's "sad." It's the consistent acceptance of the "mediocre." But I'm not here to tell you what to like or not. If "good enough" is what you like, then there is plenty of material out in the world for you to enjoy. But I prefer to demand more than "mediocre." And the Prequels aren't "good enough" for me. It's not "nitpicking." It's called literary comprehension.

Beast
01-06-2004, 12:03 PM
No, it wasn't "canon," BUT it made complete sense...which is why it was written as such in the first place. This "new" idea of George's doesn't make sense at all given everything else that has been filmed and shown.

You're suggesting that it's "sad" to request quality in our literature, filmmaking, and art? I'll tell you what's "sad." It's the consistent acceptance of the "mediocre." But I'm not here to tell you what to like or not. If "good enough" is what you like, then there is plenty of material out in the world for you to enjoy. But I prefer to demand more than "mediocre." And the Prequels aren't "good enough" for me. It's not "nitpicking." It's called literary comprehension.
This makes even more sense, if you stop and think about it for a moment without allowing your prequel bias to rear it's ugly head. Owen dislikes/hates Obi-Wan because his failure to properly train Anakin lead to his fall to the Dark Side. He's lost both a step-mother and step-brother in one fell swoop, because if Anakin would have been there, Shmi might not have been taken and died. Of course there's some resentment there. Why would Vader return to Tatooine for any reason. He has no ties there, it's a past that no longer has any meaning for him. So why couldn't Obi-Wan and Luke hideout there. It's a big universe. Besides, it could be inferred from Vader's comments in ANH that they let Obi-Wan live. To make him suffer for what he's caused.

No, it's sad that you cling so greatly to things that have been shown time and again to not have been 'destroyed' by the prequels. You take slivers of dialogue, disregarding others to build this case about how the prequels ruined the Star Wars Saga. Hell, you talk more about them then the OT that you apperantly have on a pedistal. God knows why, they suffer from the same faults as the PT. Poor acting, sloppy writing, bad special effects. Somehow you seem to be able to overlook any faults there. It's not Shakespeare, Stillakid. It's a Cheesy Space Fantasy series. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
01-06-2004, 12:08 PM
stillakid, why do you keep clinging to the not-onscreen brother relation? It doesn't matter that it makes sense for Owen to be Obi-Wan's brother because FEW people were aware of it. Out of the millions of people who saw ROTJ, how many actually read that old novelization? Very few, I'm sure.

Without any unnecessary EU book extrapolation, as the OT stands by itself Owen was Luke's uncle. Whether it was a blood uncle, a step uncle, or a pseudo-"uncle" is never shown onscreen during the OT. Anakin and Owen could have been 100% blood brothers before the prequels came out and we wouldn't have known otherwise (unless you go off and read the novelization to "fill in the gaps" -- a process which you are so critical of otherwise).

The 'Xir
01-06-2004, 12:38 PM
I like the prequels, and actually I have always been a stern supporter and defender of Lucass' direction of the prequels, and really had to defend TPM when it first came out. However, I hate to say it the more I watch Ep II AotC(cause it's on HBO and CMAX, like 20 times a day) the more I question Lucas's decision making, and the more I like TPM! Actualy I love TPM, more and more to me it has that adventureous feel to it like the OT! I know, most people hate TPM, but usually it's just because of Jar Jar, but I'm really starting to not like AotC!!! It has raised alot questionable continuity decision making on Lucas's part, not to mention the cheesy love scenes, and putting A saber in Yoda's hands! There's is just no doubt now in my mind that Lucas has missed some great oppourtunities to do some great things with these prequels and mainly EpII!

The only thing I can say is that there is a lot of ambiguity in that dinner scene in ANH, meaning there's still alot of canvas there to paint onto. Hell, I remember when after ESB came out and I rewatched that scene, I ways like NO way, what foresight george had(like he really did know what he was doing), so let's just hope that Lucas has smartened up from epII and really comes up with something creative to make this all work! No matter what I still think EpIII has alot of potential, and I still have faith in ole Georgey, let's just hope he doesn't really screw things up! :nerv:

jawaboy
01-06-2004, 01:23 PM
Well, so far in the prequels, Obi-wan hasn't met anyone, not even Owen or Beru. He never really left the ship in TPM and never met anyone in AOTC.

So why would Obi-wan know where to leave Luke then? He never met any of these people. It's possible that Anakin told him what happened, but that wouldn't really make it easier to find where to drop him off.

Owen really doesn't like Obi-wan. And for what reason? They've never met or heard of eachother so far. Whatever altercation they have will no doubt occur in EpIII when they finally meet. Maybe Owen just blames him for messing up Anakin so badly.

I'll be really interested in how this plays out.

stillakid
01-06-2004, 07:32 PM
This makes even more sense, if you stop and think about it for a moment without allowing your prequel bias to rear it's ugly head.
Okay, first of all, you're reacting as though I went into "the Prequels" looking for reasons to dislike them. That's putting the cart before the horse. On the contrary, once I saw the glaring errors, then I began to dislike them. So it is virtually impossible for me to set aside a bias which was formed by the very things you wish me to view without it.

So anyhow, that said, I'm always very open to considering other points of view, so on to the discussion...


Owen dislikes/hates Obi-Wan because his failure to properly train Anakin lead to his fall to the Dark Side. He's lost both a step-mother and step-brother in one fell swoop,
You're filling in blanks that don't exist here. You're assuming that in the brief day and a half that Anakin was at the Lar's homestead, Owen and he somehow developed some deep relationship that would result in Owen "disliking/hating" a guy that he never ever met. Fact is, there is extremely little motivation for Owen to give a rat's arse what happens to Anakin. Afterall, Anakin didn't even say goodbye before rocketing off the planet...and with the protocol droid that they were probably using on farm.



because if Anakin would have been there, Shmi might not have been taken and died. Of course there's some resentment there.
Huh? So if lil' Jake-Anakin had not left Tatooine back in Episode I, somehow his presence (as an untrained Jedi, mind you) would have prevented this random act of violence? Sorry, I don't buy it.



Why would Vader return to Tatooine for any reason. He has no ties there, it's a past that no longer has any meaning for him. So why couldn't Obi-Wan and Luke hideout there. It's a big universe.
Well, we (meaning: the audience) doesn't know that until ROTJ and there is no reason to suspect that Obi or Yoda or anyone else knows that either. For all the heroes know, Anakin-as-Vader could fly back to Tatooine at any time in a rage to destroy that awful place that killed his mother. Heck, they don't know, so why risk hiding the "new hope" there when they could have hid him in literally any other place in galaxy? In this new imagining of the plot, the risk exceeds the benefits.


Besides, it could be inferred from Vader's comments in ANH that they let Obi-Wan live. To make him suffer for what he's caused.
? Really? Where did this nugget come from? There is no inference in the OT that "they" let Obi Wan live.


Poor acting, sloppy writing, bad special effects. Somehow you seem to be able to overlook any faults there..
List them.

Beast
01-06-2004, 07:39 PM
? Really? Where did this nugget come from? There is no inference in the OT that "they" let Obi Wan live.
Vader: "He is here."
Tarkin: "Obi-Wan Kenobi? Surely he must be dead by now."
Vader: "Obi-Wan is here. And the force is with him. I must face him, alone."

Vader: "You should not have come back."

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
01-06-2004, 07:49 PM
Vader: "He is here."
Tarkin: "Obi-Wan Kenobi? Surely he must be dead by now."
Vader: "Obi-Wan is here. And the force is with him. I must face him, alone."

Vader: "You should not have come back."

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks


Yeah, and...? That showed that Obi got away during the purge. It certainly doesn't imply that "they" let him go. If you're going down that road, then why not also assume that they let Yoda go as well? We're getting into the Episode III speculation, but what motivation would the bad guys have in allowing any of the Jedi to live? Palpatine, of all people, knows full well what a danger even one of these guys can be.

Beast
01-06-2004, 08:13 PM
It's just as plausible as anything you've posted up. Why is it possible that Yoda and Ben were left alive? Well, they're both intrigal parts of the fall of the Republic and the Rise of the Empire. As well as having an important connection to Anakin/Vader. Palpatine will have begin the spin that makes the galaxy see the Jedi as a "hoaky religion". Basially they're no threat to him. They could have easily been banished and told to 'Never Come Back'. Leaving them to live out their lives, knowing that they were the cause of all the things that came to pass. It's a very classic story plot device, and also ties into Palpatine's "Overconfidence being his weakness". :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

TheDarthVader
01-06-2004, 10:10 PM
My movie trilogy sourcebook, which is authorized by Lucasfilm and gives in depth character analysis stories for most of the main characters, reads as follows under palpatine's "biography" (if you will) about Kenobi:

"Perhaps the Emperor did not destroy Obi Wan Kenobi with the rest of the jedi because he foresaw the old man taking young Luke under his wing someday in the distant future. Obi Wan had failed once and created Vader, the Emperor's greatest servant. Perhaps the Emperor expected him to fall again, giving Palpatine an even more powerful tool."---copyright 1993 Lucasfilm Ltd All rights reserved. Pages 21 and 22 The Star Wars Movie Trilogy Sourcebook published by West End Games under authorization.

2-1B
01-07-2004, 01:30 AM
Interesting . . . but in Episode V, Palps tells Vader that the son of Skywalker must not be allowed to become a Jedi.

Then again, that could be a ploy by Palps to make Vader think he could use Luke to overthrow the Emperor while Palps plans on using Luke for himself all along.

Hmmmmm . . .

B'Omarr Monkey
01-07-2004, 09:35 AM
I think the original idea that Owen Lars was Obi-Wan's brother made the most sense for why Luke would have been entrusted to them, and why he would have ended up being so determined to keep his adopted son from following in Obi-Wan's footsteps given what the Empire did to the rest of the Jedi when they were seizing power.

I think the whole notion of Anakin originating from Tatooine was a mistep, and the fact that he built C-3PO an even worse idea. Funny how Ben Kenobi talks to Luke about Anakin's skills as a pilot (which we've barely seen) but doesn't mention anything like "He also built preety good droids in his spare time, in fact he built one just like C-3PO there--wait a minute, he did build C-3PO there. What an incredible coincidence!)

Let's all hope that Chewie really does not deliver the twins to safety that would just be taking the whole credibility of everything being so "small world" to ridiculous levels. Then we'd have to deal with why Chewie and Ben don't remember each other on top of everything else.

CropDuster
01-07-2004, 10:43 AM
This makes even more sense, if you stop and think about it for a moment without allowing your prequel bias to rear it's ugly head. Owen dislikes/hates Obi-Wan because his failure to properly train Anakin lead to his fall to the Dark Side. He's lost both a step-mother and step-brother in one fell swoop, because if Anakin would have been there, Shmi might not have been taken and died. Of course there's some resentment there. Why would Vader return to Tatooine for any reason. He has no ties there, it's a past that no longer has any meaning for him. So why couldn't Obi-Wan and Luke hideout there. It's a big universe. Besides, it could be inferred from Vader's comments in ANH that they let Obi-Wan live. To make him suffer for what he's caused.

No, it's sad that you cling so greatly to things that have been shown time and again to not have been 'destroyed' by the prequels. You take slivers of dialogue, disregarding others to build this case about how the prequels ruined the Star Wars Saga. Hell, you talk more about them then the OT that you apperantly have on a pedistal. God knows why, they suffer from the same faults as the PT. Poor acting, sloppy writing, bad special effects. Somehow you seem to be able to overlook any faults there. It's not Shakespeare, Stillakid. It's a Cheesy Space Fantasy series. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

The point is not what is or isn't canon, but what makes a logical story. Why is it nitpicky of a fan to want his cheesy fantasy to be logically and sensibly written? Since when did something have to be Shakespearian or of legendary status to be expertly written?
I still like the prequels, but as a huge fan of the OT I have some pretty serious problems that stick out like sore thumbs while watching the prequels. I do not appreciate GL deviating from the original story more than anything, and you cannot say that GL has NOT changed story with some poorly concocted inclusions in the PT.
Another thing that bugs me is when fans in general treat anything from GL, the almighty creator, as gospel. You're right, it was his inspiration and I am in no way implicating that he was not heavily involved, but there was a GROUP of people that made the OT. They weren't a bunch of YES men that followed along with every whim of GL's. THEY got squeezed out by his ever increasing ego and now he's doing things HIS way and he's screwing up some stuff along the way. I think he has a lot to offer and should definitely be given credit and praise for his role, but in my opinion the PT could have been considerably better if GL had taken on a little less of a role in the film making.

stillakid
01-07-2004, 10:58 AM
It's just as plausible as anything you've posted up.


Well, not really, but what you've suggested is of course possible as is anything at this point. It all comes back to what makes the most sense in context of the established continuity.

Let's say that in Episode III, we do see Palpatine and Vader "choose" to let Obi go free for some reason. What would make a GOOD reason for such a thing? In my mind, there isn't anything coming to mind that would make this a plausible moment in the saga. What would the bad guys have to gain by consciously allowing a powerful good guy to get away? Hopefully the bad guys won't know anything about Anakin's kids, but even if they do, the last thing in the world that the bad guys in any story would want would be for the "mentor" types to live another day in order to come back alone or with help to exact revenge. What you're suggesting is almost on a James Bond level. Instead of just killing off the adversary, they concoct some complicated scheme which comes back and bites them in the arse. Yeah, that's classic storytelling. :rolleyes:

stillakid
01-07-2004, 11:05 AM
The point is not what is or isn't canon, but what makes a logical story. Why is it nitpicky of a fan to want his cheesy fantasy to be logically and sensibly written? Since when did something have to be Shakespearian or of legendary status to be expertly written?
I still like the prequels, but as a huge fan of the OT I have some pretty serious problems that stick out like sore thumbs while watching the prequels. I do not appreciate GL deviating from the original story more than anything, and you cannot say that GL has NOT changed story with some poorly concocted inclusions in the PT.
Another thing that bugs me is when fans in general treat anything from GL, the almighty creator, as gospel. You're right, it was his inspiration and I am in no way implicating that he was not heavily involved, but there was a GROUP of people that made the OT. They weren't a bunch of YES men that followed along with every whim of GL's. THEY got squeezed out by his ever increasing ego and now he's doing things HIS way and he's screwing up some stuff along the way. I think he has a lot to offer and should definitely be given credit and praise for his role, but in my opinion the PT could have been considerably better if GL had taken on a little less of a role in the film making.


Just for fun, I watched American Greffiti yesterday along with the DVD extra featurette thing. Of course these are interviews of the people now recalling the events of then, but the events and attitudes from the George of yesteryears would never have put up with the guy that exists now. He admits on camera that he never wanted to write a screenplay again after THX. He willingly sought out help in the writing process, multiple times. He knew that he couldn't do it without help...yet fastforward to 25 years later and he suddenly thinks that he is capable of that part of the process.

I don't know. Unshakable fans aside, I have yet to talk to anyone down here in So. Cal. in the industry who doesn't shake his/her head at the mention of the Prequels. I have to believe that even friend Spielberg had to have been surprised at how poorly the Prequels are coming out. When I die and get to ask St. Peter all those questions that I've always wanted to know (are we alone, how big in the universe, are whales intelligent), I'll toss in there something about George and why he did this?

2-1B
01-07-2004, 01:56 PM
The same industry insiders who abhor Lucas for not wanting to bother with their unions? :lol

stillakid
01-07-2004, 02:18 PM
The same industry insiders who abhor Lucas for not wanting to bother with their unions? :lol


:D Yeah, those guys. But nobody really rags on him for that. Since he moved away from here and really hasn't ever had a base of operations, his productions aren't really "runaway" because they were never here to begin with. :)

If I could crawl inside George's head, I'd know for sure, but since I can't, I'd be more apt to say that he shoots elsewhere just to get away from the whole "Hollywood" thing en masse. The "low budget" crews he was working with early on weren't very efficient (but that's too be expected so I don't know what that beef would be about) and the studios either rejected his ideas or took away his control (ie. Graffiti, Star Wars). He takes "holding a grudge" to a whole new level. His semi-recent rejection of a qualified WGA writer* is proof-positive that this is how he still operates. As you said yourself before, filmmaking is a collaborative process, but George is allowing his own prejudices and agendas to get in the way of producing the best movies that are possible and instead is settling for anything else so long as it is his and is done his way.

The question isn't about why Owen doesn't recall C3PO. It's why George can't remember what it was like when he was young and idealistic.

The 'Xir
01-07-2004, 06:12 PM
When I die and get to ask St. Peter all those questions that I've always wanted to know (are we alone, how big in the universe, are whales intelligent), I'll toss in there something about George and why he did this?

No you have all of us here at SirSteve's...silly! :p

As big as your mind and heart will allow from the time you are born until the time you die. :cool:

I thought you already knew whales were intelligent. Don't worry though they aren't laughing at you they're laughing with you! :ermm:

Ummm...Because he can, and we haven't found away to stop him! ;)

See, you don't need God or St Peter, not as long as you have what has been affectionetly been deemed by my circle of friends as The 'Xir's Cure! :D :rolleyes: :D

stillakid
01-07-2004, 06:14 PM
I thought you already knew whales were intelligent.

We weren't allowed to continue that discussion after the thought police arrived. :dead:

B'Omarr Monkey
01-07-2004, 08:01 PM
I'm going to jump to Cropduster's defense and say that this isn't really about OT vs PT, or how dare Lucas change established story elements. It really is about what makes a good story and consistency in story elements that connect the six films together.

The sense I get watching the PT is that he's making it up as he goes and hasn't gone back to watch the OT to take notes before writing the PT scripts. Does anybody actually believe that he planned all along for Jango Fett to be the origin of all the stormtroopers, or do you thing he added that to please all the fans who thought Boba Fett was the coolest character? The same for the tremendous reduction in screen time for Jar Jar in AOTC for the opposite reasons. Before TPM came out Lucas built up Jar Jar to be the important new character for the PT (at least Chewbacca important).

Stuff like Anakin building C-3PO and Anakin being from Tatooine (which has proven to be as unremote as Luke made it sound in ANH) are clearly not elements of whatever grand outline he had 20 odd years ago. All this stuff with Owen and C-3PO and the discrepencies in the ages of the characters who carry over from the PT to the OT with it's 20 year lag in time are just some of the many elements that seem to be Lucas not paying attention to his own original stories.

If any of you have seen the rumored long list of changes he's making to the OT again, you'll see he's just retroactively going around trying to patch inconsequential stuff. Not big stuff.

If Lucas had alluded to a romantically attached Jedi couple in the OT, and then decided while writing AOTC that it served the story better if Jedi's weren't allowed to have romantic relationships period, I would be forgiving, because it strengthens the story about Anakin and Padme, vs, say some throw away dialogue that didn't serve the plot in the OT. For this reason I don't get bent out of shape about things like Obi-Wan talking about Yoda training him in the OT.

Originally, Qui-Gon was supposed to be Obi-Wan's padawan, so this probably would have supported that dialogue, but when Lucas decided it was stronger (arguably) for the realationship to be reversed, obviously that line of dialogue was contradicted.

It's the binding that glues everything together that is getting really sloppy, not to mention what Lucas is choosing to include in the movies themselves. The Clone Wars takes place off screen?! Was there really anything in TPM that we needed to see? That whole movie so that we could see that Anakin started off as a nice kid? You could have put that as a fifteen minute prologue onto the beginning of the AOTC and started there. Only 2 Sith at a time? Why? Wouldn't the arena battle have been better if it were hundreds of Jedi vs hundreds of dark Jedi instead of against a bunch of lame robots who shouldn't have been able to kill any of them.

In the next movie, all the Jedi get slain except 2, but are any off us going to feel saddened? No. None of the Jedi are characters. After watching "Return of the King" and seeing how much story and character were in there amde me feel like the PT movies are even more hollow than they seemed before.

I love the OT flaws and all, and I really like the PT, flaws and all, but there are more flaws in the PT, and I really wish that it could have been what it should have been. When Lucas said he was waiting for the technology to catch up to his ideas, I suspect that these were not his ideas.

One thing good has come out of all the PT bashing. You don't hear so much complaining about the ewoks anymore, do you?

Boba Fetish
01-07-2004, 08:53 PM
So I come back in like a day and a half to see what you guys thought and I'm like "What the hell happened to my original question?" :confused: Oh well. The replies that did ensue in the meantime were both interesting and insightful.

Ta Ta

TheDarthVader
01-07-2004, 11:14 PM
So I come back in like a day and a half to see what you guys thought and I'm like "What the hell happened to my original question?" :confused: Oh well. The replies that did ensue in the meantime were both interesting and insightful.

Ta Ta

Sorry Fetish. Somehow :rolleyes: :rolleyes: two old adversaries and the other parties decided to debate OT vs PT for the 1,000,000,000th time. And I decided to add some insightful information to their discussion/arguement. I know I probably should not have "gotten involved" but I followed someone on a "damn idealistic crusade" to defend the PT much like my father did (well not really on the father part).

stillakid
01-08-2004, 11:03 AM
TheDarthVaderdefend the PT much like my father did (well not really on the father part).


Your father would know better... ;)

TheDarthVader
01-08-2004, 01:09 PM
Your father would know better... ;)

HA! :) (Actually my real father likes the PT but he doesn't argue OT vs PT. I am not sure if he likes one better than the other or not. ????)

:)

Boba Fetish
01-08-2004, 11:34 PM
Sorry Fetish. Somehow :rolleyes: :rolleyes: two old adversaries and the other parties decided to debate OT vs PT for the 1,000,000,000th time. And I decided to add some insightful information to their discussion/arguement. I know I probably should not have "gotten involved" but I followed someone on a "damn idealistic crusade" to defend the PT much like my father did (well not really on the father part).


It's all good yo! I actually enjoyed seeing people volley their opinions back and forth. It's fun. Thanks. :cool:

Masterdorkboy
01-10-2004, 06:58 AM
It makes sense for Owen not to recognize C-3PO. You've got an entire universe of droids with these types of designations, and indeed the same designations. The voice of each 'speaking' droid is based on some kind of modulator, which I'm sure is relatively generic, and is therefore heard all over the place and is not distinct at all. Also, when Owen last saw 3PO he looked like the Tin Man, not the gold plated droid he sees in EP IV. As for any other continuity questions, why not just wait until EP III? We assume that because the clone troopers look like stormtroopers, then the stormtroopers are clones. Maybe the result of the clone wars is the Republic's or Empire's dissolution of the clone armies. Don't know, and I won't pass judgement on the PT until it is finished. After all, these are to resemble the three parts of one story concept that GL intially wanted for the OT.

stillakid
01-10-2004, 11:03 AM
Hell, you talk more about them then the OT that you apperantly have on a pedistal. God knows why, they suffer from the same faults as the PT. Poor acting, sloppy writing, bad special effects. Somehow you seem to be able to overlook any faults there.




List them.


Hmm, still waiting for this list...again. This isn't the first time I've asked for such a thing...and it isn't the first time that the request has been quietly ignored. Somebody can open up a new thread where we can debate the wall to wall cheesy moments in the OT which make it just as bad if not worse than the Prequels. :rolleyes:

CropDuster
01-10-2004, 12:49 PM
After all, these are to resemble the three parts of one story concept that GL intially wanted for the OT.
Ha, that was a joke... right?
Surely you don't acutally belive that the PT movies are part of his initial concept. B-monkey already put out some blaring examples of GL changing the movies to please the fans.

DarthChuckMc
01-10-2004, 06:51 PM
You want cheesy, bad acting, and bad effects?

"You stuck up, half witted, scruffy looking nerf herder!"

Anything Yoda says before he reveals who he is.

3PO and R2's bickering....in any OT movie.

"But I was going to Tosche Station to pick up some power convertors."

"You can mess around with your friends when your chores are done."

Any scene showing TIE Fighters.

The Tantive looks REALLY bad after it takes the last laser blast before being tractor beamed. So obviously a model...pee-yousa.

Any scene with Salacious Crumb.

The Rancor.

"Two fighters against a Star Destroyer?" unknown Rebel in TESB...BAD read.

The ever changing pace of the Trash Compactor walls.

The Han's Tauntaun disappearing before it makes it into the hangerbay.

ANY line spoken by Carrie Fisher in ANH.

Luke's whinning in ANH and TESB when he's training with Yoda.

Han's eyerolling....enough Mr. Sarcasm!

Vader's WHITE saber after he kills Kenobi.

Kenobi's death....the looks, not the fact that he died.

Never seeing Luke pilot ANYTHING other than a Landspeeder, and then miraculously being able the pilot an X-Wing well enough to blow up the most powerful threat in the universe....at least we SEE Anakin pilot something in TPM!

Most of the Mos Eisely Cantina aliens....even though I still want figures of them ;)

Dr. Evizan's lipsynch....eeeekk!

I could go on and on and on, but I'm tired of this already. I can nitpick the OT ALL day......but I still love it, as much as a heterosexual man can love a series of 20 something year old space operas.

Beast
01-10-2004, 07:07 PM
Hmm, still waiting for this list...again. This isn't the first time I've asked for such a thing...and it isn't the first time that the request has been quietly ignored. Somebody can open up a new thread where we can debate the wall to wall cheesy moments in the OT which make it just as bad if not worse than the Prequels. :rolleyes:
Keep waiting. I never said I'd supply a list, you placed that job upon me. I've posted plenty of bad things in the OT before. I don't feel the need to justify my argument like some people. I know there's awful dialogue, bad acting, and cheesy effects in the OT. It's part of the charm. Of course, now were all older so we see the exact same things in the PT, and we attack them. Charming, just charming. It's sometimes horribly sad that people cannot watch a movie for entertainment value anymore. Instead of enjoying the story and everything else, we feel a need to pick apart and rip to shreds any movie that doesn't fall perfectly fit our little visions of perfections. I weep for any movie goers that no longer see a movie to be taken away into another world for two hours. A pox on all movie critics, professional or amateur. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
01-10-2004, 08:48 PM
You want cheesy, bad acting, and bad effects?


Yeah, I'm still waiting for some examples. :)

Beast
01-10-2004, 08:52 PM
Yeah, I'm still waiting for some examples. :)
Don't ya love when he ignores posted examples. That's why I quit trying. He's not going to even consider the opinion of anyone that likes the Prequels.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Masterdorkboy
01-10-2004, 10:27 PM
Surely you don't acutally belive that the PT movies are part of his initial concept.



I think you misunderstood the my statement. The OT was originally to be presented as a three act story. First act establishing the characters, second act setting up the meat of the story, and the third part the resolution to the story. GL was unable to present the OT in that manner as EP IV had to stand on its own as he may never have a chance to do any others. (You may recall it was supposed to flop.) So GL also changed his original concept for the OT as well. If he had had his way, and had been able to tell the story the way he wanted he wouldn't have introduced the DS until EP VI. With the PT he's been able to run the movies in the way he had intially wanted to do the OT. The screenplay and everything have been based heavily on what he thinks fans want, and he has often made mistakes in connecting the two trilogies together. But he always had the general back story of Anakin in mind, even when doing the OT.

stillakid
01-11-2004, 04:54 PM
Don't ya love when he ignores posted examples. That's why I quit trying. He's not going to even consider the opinion of anyone that likes the Prequels.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Who ignored something? I just didn't agree with his list of things he considers to be "cheesy" moments in film. Don't pre-judge my motivations. I ALWAYS consider what ANYONE has to say. If it is logical and reasonable, then great. If it isn't, then no. It just so happens that some people don't often have very logical or reasonable suggestions which gives the impression that I won't consider anything they have to say. But you'll notice that my previous suggestion was for an OT hater to open another thread so that we can discuss the wall-to-wall cheeseball moments and godforsaken dialogue that plagues the original films. Obviously, "cheesy" falls into the realm of opinion so it wouldn't be much more than a "sharing" discussion with no resolution. :)

DarthChuckMc
01-11-2004, 05:13 PM
Obviously, "cheesy" falls into the realm of opinion so it wouldn't be much more than a "sharing" discussion with no resolution. :)

...which is the reason I don't understand why WE keep having this discussion. Stilla dislikes and slams the PT, the rest of us enjoy and are content with their quirks, just like we are with the OTs cheesy moments. I've watched the OT for over 25 years now, between original screenings, VHS, re-releases, bootleg DVDs, cable TV....and I still like them, but I can see them for what they are, cheesy space cowboy movies. The PT are a little less cowboy shoot 'em up, and focus more on the who's and the why's the OT is the way it is. You ain't going to change our minds, and we ain't going to change yours...so let's just all agree to disagree. By ranting about this over and over and over isn't solving world hunger, the hole in the ozone layer, or the fact that I can't get laid in a brothel....it's just toy and movie geeks trying to scream their opinion louder than the next guy, in some small hope that someone will say..."You're right! By gosh, you're right!"

2-1B
01-11-2004, 08:26 PM
Good point.

I wasn't aware that SSG had any "OT haters" here - so why question the fact that no "OT hater" has taken the time to open up a thread bashing the OT ?

stillakid
01-11-2004, 11:51 PM
...which is the reason I don't understand why WE keep having this discussion. Stilla dislikes and slams the PT, the rest of us enjoy and are content with their quirks, just like we are with the OTs cheesy moments.


Wait wait wait wait...That isn't the case. When "these" types of discussions began oh so long ago, there was a contingent who actively claimed that the Prequels were without, as you say, "quirks." They were apparently without flaw and every bit as solid as the OT films. There has been a noticeable shift of late, though, wherein those who so adamently defended every frame of the Prequels now allow for the acceptance of said "quirks" but now also choose to degrade the original films as being "just as cheesy" et al.

And for the "OT haters" thing, I was being facetious. :D Sorry about that. It doesn't take much to push buttons around this galaxy. :ermm:

2-1B
01-12-2004, 12:49 AM
"You're generalizing. Besides, the Chancellor doesn't appear to be corrupt." lol

No, none of my buttons were pushed, no worries there. I just don't like this talk of a "contingency" of this or that or anything else. There are many of us around here who enjoy the prequels on the whole yet we disagree about certain things within that setting.

Why can't someone see the OT as being solid yet still containing "quirks" ? I love ANH but it's my least favorite of the OT. It's a solid movie indeed but yes it does have it's quirks . . . The Godfather, it ain't. ;)

TPM is a pretty solid story overall, I just don't like certain aspects of it. Yet, The Godfather, it ain't. :D

arctangent
01-12-2004, 07:24 AM
i don't know how old you are stilla, but being the old man that i am, i remember when star wars was originally released. it was almost universally slagged off by film critics who only changed their minds when the public ignored their opinions and went to see the film in droves. i remember being a very upset twelve year old who couldn't understand why people were saying this film was rubbish. were they not watching the same picture as me?

looking at the films now, much of the acting is stilted and bad, some of the effects are dodgy (which is why many of them were 'fixed' in the special editions) and the script? well, as harrison ford said, you might be able to write this rubbish but you sure can't say it!

however, despite the original triology's many faults i still love it.

CropDuster
01-12-2004, 09:49 AM
I agree with the point that no one will be convinced of the other's opinion by arguing back and forth over and over and I also agree that the OT has flaws as does the PT. However, I find some of the PT flaws a little more distracting when viewing the PT (mostly JJBinks), yet I still like the movie and will be among the millions in line to see Ep3 as soon as it hits theaters.
Additionally, I do understand the frustration experienced by others on the forum when a member disagrees with you on a point of some sort or another and just dismisses you as a PT hater (or goes silent) when all that you have requested of them is an explanation as to how or why something makes sense.
Oh well, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
I guess back to the point of this thread, I don't believe anyone (even GL) knows whether or not Owen remebers C3PO. 'Tis a mystery. Maybe it'll be explained in Ep3, but I doubt it.

Beast
01-12-2004, 12:55 PM
Additionally, I do understand the frustration experienced by others on the forum when a member disagrees with you on a point of some sort or another and just dismisses you as a PT hater (or goes silent) when all that you have requested of them is an explanation as to how or why something makes sense.
You've not been here that long, so lemme give you some info. The reason I'm not going to state reasons, is because it's useless. I've done it for nearly two years to support my statements. And it doesn't get anyone anywhere. Stillakid presents argument A. Forum members present info B. Backed up by facts C. Stillakid ignores info, and continues to spew argument A for eternity. It's a perpetual motion machine of annoyance. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
01-13-2004, 01:12 PM
You've not been here that long, so lemme give you some info. The reason I'm not going to state reasons, is because it's useless. I've done it for nearly two years to support my statements. And it doesn't get anyone anywhere. Stillakid presents argument A. Forum members present info B. Backed up by facts C. Stillakid ignores info, and continues to spew argument A for eternity. It's a perpetual motion machine of annoyance. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks


Boy did you get that wrong. I present A+B=C.

You counter with A + "well, you're nitpicking so even though you're right, I'll label you, ignore you, and criticize you as not enjoying them for what they are and still believe that this all" = C.

The "support" for your statements has consistently involved significant amounts of "rationalization" and filling in blanks with 3rd party information. I've always maintained that the problems I bring up are self-contained within the films themselves. Anybody could explain away nearly any flaw in any story after the fact when given the leaway to. But it doesn't negate the fact that the flaw exists. And that used to be the primary bone of contention, that there was nothing wrong anywhere in the Saga. Now the new strategy is to suggest that all the films are fundamentally flawed because, how'd you say it, "It's not Shakespeare, Stillakid. It's a Cheesy Space Fantasy series."


I ignore NOTHING and never have. That was a misrepresentation of facts, but then again, I expect nothing less. I've proven time and time again that A+B=C but in the past you've chosen to not want to believe it to protect the image of perfection that you held for Star Wars. But this new attitude, of debasing the entire series, is something I don't quite understand. But then again, it is just a cheesy space fantasy afterall. We shouldn't expect much from it anyway. Right? Bring on the fart jokes, George! The more the better! :p

stillakid
01-13-2004, 01:50 PM
i don't know how old you are stilla, but being the old man that i am, i remember when star wars was originally released. it was almost universally slagged off by film critics who only changed their minds when the public ignored their opinions and went to see the film in droves. i remember being a very upset twelve year old who couldn't understand why people were saying this film was rubbish. were they not watching the same picture as me?

looking at the films now, much of the acting is stilted and bad, some of the effects are dodgy (which is why many of them were 'fixed' in the special editions) and the script? well, as harrison ford said, you might be able to write this rubbish but you sure can't say it!

however, despite the original triology's many faults i still love it.

I agree. The OT is not without some faults. What movie isn't? I'm not even talking about "critics." That is inconsquential to anything I've ever said. I simply look at an element in the story, say for example, the OT "suggestion" that Yoda was Obi Wan's master. So when we eager fans run to the theaters 25-ish years later, why shouldn't we all scratch our heads when it turns out that Obi Wan had a different master? Okay, maybe there is a good explanation for it, so let's dig in and figure it out. Well, in my digging, I discovered that it was in fact a continuity error. Yes, with a certain amount of fudging and dodging, one could rationalize that it's all well and good, but when taken at face value, it consistently makes no sense at all.

As far as the dialogue goes, yeah, sure it's certainly "different" than most films but does it make it "cheesy?" I don't agree. Harrison Ford's comment came at a time when NOBODY was making movies like this. The ENTIRE film probably was odd for everyone involved. Running around, firing rayguns at weird alien things and such. Of course it would feel "cheesy" to an actor at that time. But fast-forward to something like, say, ALIEN. Did Sigourney suggest that her dialogue was "cheesy?" I don't know, maybe she did, but then again, sci-fi had become part of the vernacular by then so space-stuff wasn't so different anymore.

The FX? Most of what I talk about has nothing to do with the "look." Would some of the fx work look better being "spruce up?" Sure, why not. While we're at it, we might as well go back and redo all of Harryhausen's stuff too. But the point is that the vast majority of what I like to talk about involves story...continuity, consistency, character...that kind of stuff. Change isn't easy to accept, so for critics being compelled to go watch this radically different kind of film in 1977, it was probably ridiculous. People (me too, to answer your age question) went to see it anyway because it was fun. The FX were superb, the dialogue was exciting, and the story was riveting.

Maybe in the court of public opinion, we might find a few people who would declare that "much of the acting is stilted and bad" in comparison with other great works, like HEAT or THE GODFATHER. But again, these are apples and oranges. But put the OT acting, dialogue and story up against the Prequels elements, and it's no contest. Hayden's character is so unbelievable as Anakin that this saga is quickly going downt the Matrix road of discontent. Yeah, people will turn out in droves to see Episode III, but only in hopes that George will tie up those concerns of theirs, the same way they turned out for Matrix III. In that case, they finally realized the truth, that the emperor has no clothes and that for all their optimism and hopefullness, that they've been duped.

arctangent
01-14-2004, 05:06 AM
As far as the dialogue goes, yeah, sure it's certainly "different" than most films but does it make it "cheesy?" I don't agree. Harrison Ford's comment came at a time when NOBODY was making movies like this. The ENTIRE film probably was odd for everyone involved. Running around, firing rayguns at weird alien things and such. Of course it would feel "cheesy" to an actor at that time. But fast-forward to something like, say, ALIEN. Did Sigourney suggest that her dialogue was "cheesy?" I don't know, maybe she did, but then again, sci-fi had become part of the vernacular by then so space-stuff wasn't so different anymore.

er, you don't exactly have to fast forward very much to get to alien. it was filmed at shepperton studios in 1978 so not exactly that long after star wars was filmed. there is certainly nothing in the alien script that rivals 'it'll just take a few moments to program the co-orinates into the navicomputer' (that might not be a completely accurate rendition of the line, i can't remember exactly how it went, and that was the line that prompt harrison's outburst about the script).

whereas george was filming a 'space opera' film like the 1950's flash gordon, alien was never supposed to be a sci-fi film like star wars. it was a suspense/horror film that just happened to be set in space. according to interviews on the alien extras disk from the alien quadrollogy (which i was lucky enough to receive at christmas) much of the dialogue in the 'script' was only a guideline and much of the dialogue when filming was improvised (something that upped the tension for sigourney because she was not used to improv). from watching the various documentaries it seems that fox were not really sure whether to make alien or not and one of the things that persuaded them was it had a good, strong, gritty script and that it wasn't at all 'cheesy'.

the two films do not really compare.

2-1B
01-14-2004, 10:36 AM
I agree, Alien is far from cheesy.
I think Star Wars is cheesy. I think Starship Troopers is cheesy. lol


I've always maintained that the problems I bring up are self-contained within the films themselves.

Except for the problem of Owen not being Obi-Wan's brother. ;)

stillakid
01-14-2004, 12:10 PM
Except for the problem of Owen not being Obi-Wan's brother. ;)


Yeah, yeah, I KNEW you were going to say that! ;) You didn't disappoint. (My quicky reply to that is that even though it is officially non-canon, it still makes more sense that way than the Prequel way...plus I have to believe that GL approved the novelization versions of ANH, ESB, and ROTJ before they went out, so by default, the information in them is canon.)


But anyway, I want to go back to something JJB said earlier.


God knows why, they suffer from the same faults as the PT. Poor acting, sloppy writing, bad special effects. Somehow you seem to be able to overlook any faults there. It's not Shakespeare, Stillakid. It's a Cheesy Space Fantasy series. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Okay, so what's cheesy in the following scenario:

"Romeo, Romeo! Wherefore art thou Romeo?"

or...


'it'll just take a few moments to program the co-orinates into the navicomputer'

For my money, a spaceship pilot in the future (past, whatever) explaining the procedure that he follows before flying isn't cheesy...it's just, well, necessary. But two lost souls struggling to find understanding blah blah blah spitting out gag inducing dialogue (ie Shakespeare, Anakin/Padme) is hands down cheeseball, in my opinion.

TheDarthVader
01-14-2004, 01:42 PM
As far as GL and the fart jokes go, one could safely assume that those are geared more toward children than adults. So it really doesn't matter if we think they are crass or "cheesy". I have a niece who is 6 years old and she thinks "tooting" is funny and if someone toots then she will laugh. GL doesn't write these (PT) movies just for adults...I believe they are more for children than anyone else. ;)

stillakid
01-14-2004, 03:04 PM
As far as GL and the fart jokes go, one could safely assume that those are geared more toward children than adults. So it really doesn't matter if we think they are crass or "cheesy". I have a niece who is 6 years old and she thinks "tooting" is funny and if someone toots then she will laugh. GL doesn't write these (PT) movies just for adults...I believe they are more for children than anyone else. ;)


Yes, I understand what you're getting at completely...but here's my argument against that line of thought: I was a kid when the original film came out and guess what? I and all my friends loved it and not a fart joke in sight. In fact, even going back to watch it today, there isn't a second of that kind of pandering just to appeal specifically to kids (except maybe for the Ewoks). Just like the classic Warner Bros. Looney Toons, the adults could enjoy the films because they didn't assume to talk down to a kid level and kids could love them because of all the cool stuff. Some of the material went over the kid's heads which is okay because in time, they all catch up to it. The death-knell for a story, on the other hand, is when a story talks down to an audience. So something like a fart joke might evoke a chuckle at that moment in a 6 year old's life, but that filmic moment isn't timeless. The adults will be annoyed at it immediately and the kid audience (for whom that moment was aimed at) will grow out of it fairly quickly. What you're left with is a movie that is filled with such banal content that it has a shelf life of about 2 viewings.

So as you say, GL didn't write the PT movies for adults, rather for children, I think the question to ask is why? Particularly when the OT films were made for both.

TheDarthVader
01-14-2004, 08:12 PM
No, no, no!!!!!!! Notice my underlined word Stillakid. MORE! MORE! MORE! GEEZ! I didn't say Lucas wrote the PT for kids. I said I believe they are geared MORE toward kids. And yes, I believe that the OT was made MORE for children than it was for adults. Why else would Lucas use Ewoks instead of Wookies in ROTJ? Why make Jabba burp? What is the difference in a fart and a burp? It is in essence the SAME THING. I do recall Jabba BURPING in ROTJ. So..............????????????? Oh and I remember Worrt burping outside of Jabba's palace too. Hmmmm I guess that doesn't fit your definition of "fart-like" jokes. ?????

stillakid
01-14-2004, 09:29 PM
No, no, no!!!!!!! Notice my underlined word Stillakid. MORE! MORE! MORE! GEEZ! I didn't say Lucas wrote the PT for kids. I said I believe they are geared MORE toward kids. And yes, I believe that the OT was made MORE for children than it was for adults. Why else would Lucas use Ewoks instead of Wookies in ROTJ? Why make Jabba burp? What is the difference in a fart and a burp? It is in essence the SAME THING. I do recall Jabba BURPING in ROTJ. So..............????????????? Oh and I remember Worrt burping outside of Jabba's palace too. Hmmmm I guess that doesn't fit your definition of "fart-like" jokes. ?????


No, I understood. My question would be "why?" And no, I don't agree that the entire OT was geared more toward kids at all. In particular, ANH was definitely not. It had a lot of elements that appeal to kids on a superficial level, but it never condescends to think that they will only stay in their seats with fart jokes. ESB was also not geared toward kids in any way other than the aforementioned "cool" hardware and stuff. By the time ROTJ rolled around, Lucas began his downward spiral toward exactly what you are suggesting. His transformation wasn't complete, but the hints were definitely there with the Ewoks and the Sarlacc burp. In any case, kids responded amazingly well to Episodes IV and V without the benefit of George gearing it more towards them. So why should he feel compelled to do it at all? Does he not trust that kids are smart enough to enjoy a well told story without that kind of pandering?

But the bottom line is that you're right, he is now whole-heartedly gearing the PT films more toward kids leaving very little honest substance there for people who expect more from a "cheesy space epic."

CropDuster
01-14-2004, 11:19 PM
I think there has been a trend in the modern film industry to not worry as much about the writing, but to focus on the action scenes and FX which are good to capture an audience until better action sequences are performed and better FX technologies are available. So when a film hasn't got the most exciting action or the best SFX around - or some other gimmick to attract audiences - then its shelf life will be limited by the actual content and execution of the film. That's why I would prefer GL concentrate more on the story than the sfx and attracting certain groups.
But :greedy: , I suppose he knows :greedy: what he's doing. :greedy:

arctangent
01-15-2004, 06:09 AM
For my money, a spaceship pilot in the future (past, whatever) explaining the procedure that he follows before flying isn't cheesy...it's just, well, necessary.

can't really argue with the actor's own opinion of that particular line (and many others) can we? and why is it necessary to explain? an airline pilot doesn't explain to the passengers what he is about to do to make the plane take off. besides, spaceships are so common in the star wars universe that most people, luke included, would know what a navi-computer was and what it did - it doesn't really need explaining.

B'Omarr Monkey
01-15-2004, 08:24 AM
As far as the way these movies are written these days, there is not emphasis placed on story. On the Mission Impossible and James Bond movies, when the writers are hired they are given a list of action sequences which have already been decided upon and their job is to write some sort of story which connects them together, which would explain the quality of the scripts on those movies.

George Lucas isn't much better. We all know that characters and sets are designed--heck, sets are even built, before he's written any of the scripts for the PT. I loved the battle between Obi-Wan and Jango Fett amongst the asteroids in AOTC, but story wise, what does it accomplish? Nothing, really. It's a ride scene.

Look at the asteroid sequence in TESB. It further demonstartes Hans piloting skills, buys Han and Leia some needed interaction time, and the cool moment of the slug almost eating the Falcon even served the purpose of forcing the rebels to come out of hiding before their repairs were completed driving them to Bespin.

After spending most of two movies showing how incredible the Jedi are, like supermen, Lucas gives us an arena battle which completely undermines the Jedis abilities. We have dozens of Jedi killed by crappy robots controlled by a central computer. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon took out almost as many battle droids all by themselves in TPM, so why can't a hundred Jedi do the same thing? It made the Jedi look unimpressive. If it had been hundreds of Jedi vs hundreds of Sith, that would have been much cooler.

The writing of the PT seems to serve show pieces a lot more than serving the story, or the characters. When I saw all the cool new Jedi figures before AOTC hit theatres, I was very excited, and couldn't wait to find out mnore about them. When I saw the movie I was disappointed to see that they were all essentially extras. How are we supposed to care when they're wiped out next movie? I'm not emotionally invested in these non-personalities.

Look at all the character and story development in the LOTR films, and imagine what the PT could have been.

stillakid
01-15-2004, 09:40 AM
I think there has been a ...


Could you repeat that? My mind started to wander after the "a" above.



;)

DarthChuckMc
01-15-2004, 09:52 AM
Just wondering Stilla,

What scripts have you written that were made into movies?

How many movies have you directed or produced?

How many popular movie franchises have you made that captured global attention for the past 26 years?

How many people have been so influenced by your work, that they've gone into "show business" because of it?

Me, myself, none of the above. How about you?

stillakid
01-15-2004, 10:51 AM
Just wondering Stilla,

What scripts have you written that were made into movies?

How many movies have you directed or produced?

How many popular movie franchises have you made that captured global attention for the past 26 years?

How many people have been so influenced by your work, that they've gone into "show business" because of it?

Me, myself, none of the above. How about you?

3
2
0
unknown



But I take from your tone that you're suggesting that because George has arguably become the most successful independent filmmaker of all time that no criticism from anyone can be valid unless they too achieve comparable success? Is that your point? If so, it's ridiculous. On the other hand, when I read between the lines of your questions, you are also suggesting that anyone can have a valid opinion even when they never written a word in their life. I disagree with that too. There is a middle ground wherein experience, whether "commerically successful" or not, gives a person an insight into the process. Is Kevin Smith's opinion invalid because he hasn't achieved Lucas's level of success? What about Tasha Oldham? Never heard of her? She's won several awards in the past year for a documentary she made but apparently her opinion isn't valid either, eh?

DarthChuckMc
01-15-2004, 10:56 AM
Any chance you could enlighten us with the names of said scripts and directorial debuts?

stillakid
01-15-2004, 11:03 AM
Any chance you could enlighten us with the names of said scripts and directorial debuts?

Nope, for several reasons, but #1 would be that you're turning this into a personal attack. As I alluded to above, you've clearly decided that my statements aren't valid because I've obviously not achieved Lucas's level of success (but who has?), when the truth of it is you just don't like what I have to say and are looking for any means necessary to demean the messenger. Classic technique, if you can't argue the message, go after the guy saying it.

DarthChuckMc
01-15-2004, 11:09 AM
Wrong!

I am ACTUALLY curious, regardless of the fact that you haven't acheived Lucas' level of success.

I honestly WANT to know.

You want personal....

I'm 32 years old. I work at Target. I have 2 children. My wife and I have been seperated for 4 years. I never went to college. I barely finished high school. I failed 11th grade because I spent most of my nights playing in Metal Clubs, so I skipped school, alot. My band never got signed. I quit playing music when I was 22. I spend most of my free time online or running around town looking for Star Wars toys.

stillakid
01-15-2004, 11:13 AM
Again, for several reasons, I'm going to move this to the PM system. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

For everyone else, I apologize for taking the thread on a roundabout course. Please return to your regularly scheduled topic. :D


So, for the record, I don't think that Owen would remember C-3PO because he's now like 50 years older and 3PO probably represents old technology anyway. It would be like me remembering the toaster we had in the kitchen when I was a kid. :D

DarthChuckMc
01-15-2004, 11:24 AM
A PM is fine by me. I've read several times about you working "in the business", and I'm interested in seeing your work. I won't come back here blabbing about your personal stuff.

On topic.....:D

3PO leaves with Anakin and Padme...we know because we saw....I'm sure Owen and Clegg had no problem, since it technically IS Anakin's droid.

So, fast forward 3 years, Anakin and Padme still have 3PO, he's pretty, shiney and new looking...like a virgin, HEY! sorry...

Fast forward another 18 years, and a gold plated Protocal Droid, shows up in a Jawa swapmeet.

21 years later, plus some gold coverings, and the fact that he (Owen) saw 3PO leave the planet, makes me think he wouldn't assume that this is the SAME droid.

arctangent
01-15-2004, 11:32 AM
and now we are back where we started. which is good. wasn't it an interesting ride though?

tgr3328
01-15-2004, 11:34 AM
Maybe he doesn't remember, but when Luke starts talking about Ben Kenobi and his father because R2 mentions Obi Wan, Owen is suddenly adamant about getting the droid's memory erased. I think he realizes who they are and doesn't the past to catch up with his family.

stillakid
01-15-2004, 11:53 AM
Maybe he doesn't remember, but when Luke starts talking about Ben Kenobi and his father because R2 mentions Obi Wan, Owen is suddenly adamant about getting the droid's memory erased. I think he realizes who they are and doesn't the past to catch up with his family.


Interesting idea, but I think that Owen wasn't necessarily connecting the robots with the plans. It could have been anything holding the plans that would have raised his ire. If the Toaster had the plans and some kind of memory, he would have had it destroyed as well. But he probably figured that if this generic droid had some knowledge in its memory banks about Obi Wan then it might have more info that Luke might accidently discover. And because Owen had an interest in keeping Luke from "getting involved," it was in his best interest to cut Luke off from any mention at all of the galactic conflict no matter where it came from.

tgr3328
01-15-2004, 12:03 PM
Interesting idea, but I think that Owen wasn't necessarily connecting the robots with the plans.

I'm not saying that Owen knew anything about the Death Star plans. When two new droids show up (and they might be familiar to him) and they bring up someone from the past (a past that was not doubt painful and violent), he is suddenly very eager to erase their memories. I think that by this point, he knew who these droids were and he wanted to keep the past buried.

B'Omarr Monkey
01-15-2004, 09:26 PM
This probably should be a new topic, but since it still pertains (somewhat- as much as anything on this meandering thread) I thought I'd throw it out here.

Just when does anyone suppose Threepio got that first job with binary load lifters? Was he just loafing around all that time after Anakin built him, or what?

When did he and R2 become counterparts? I always that that meant they were built as coresponding units and came from the same factory. maybe they had to perform a special ceremony or something.

And where does Captain Antilles come into ownership?


I know that getting droids memories wiped is supposedly a common practice in the SW Universe, but given who R2 and 3PO belonged to, and the service they've given, I doubt they were going through it much. R2 appears to me in ANH to be perfectly aware of his past and what's going on in the greater scheme of things.

CropDuster
01-15-2004, 10:22 PM
Could you repeat that? My mind started to wander after the "a" above.



;)
My most sincere apologies, Stilla.
I didn't realize my post was too long or boring for you. That's really interesting to me when I consider the fact that yours regularly ramble on ten times longer than any of mine.

arctangent
01-16-2004, 06:03 AM
Just when does anyone suppose Threepio got that first job with binary load lifters? Was he just loafing around all that time after Anakin built him, or what?

although we won't know until we see episode 3, i think this could be another one of stilla's continuety errors.


When did he and R2 become counterparts? I always that that meant they were built as coresponding units and came from the same factory. maybe they had to perform a special ceremony or something.

a counterpart is a person or thing forming a natural complement to another. ie, r2d2 is an astromech droid and can only speak in bleeps. c3p0 is a protocol droid who speaks 6 million languages. therefore 3p0 can translate for humans what r2 is saying when he is not plugged in to a space ship such as an x-wing.


And where does Captain Antilles come into ownership?

well, he was captain of the tantive iv and the droids were serving on board, so technically you could say he was their master because they were serving under him but obviously r2d2 has a connection to leia via her mother so it maybe that she owned him and he was on board because she was. the same obviously could be said of c3p0 too.



I know that getting droids memories wiped is supposedly a common practice in the SW Universe, but given who R2 and 3PO belonged to, and the service they've given, I doubt they were going through it much. R2 appears to me in ANH to be perfectly aware of his past and what's going on in the greater scheme of things.

i wonder if c3p0 might have had a memory wipe which might be why he believes his first job was programming binary load lifters (that's if its not just a continuety error). its the first thing he remembers, but i think you are right about r2d2 - he does seem very aware of his past.