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Devo
01-31-2004, 02:50 PM
Not sure if this is the right category to put this thread in but anyway here's a theory-the jedi aren't much better than the Siths.

Bust this: the Jedi council forces its ways/beliefs onto children when they are at an age that they cannot question and make decisions for themselves (reminds me of something else but I'm not allowed to go there-just heed the subtext). Yes the cute little younglings we saw in AOTC were brainwashed. Taken from their parents with a 'now or never' ultimatem they were to be trained in the ways of the force and had their life's course chosen for them. Tough s**t little fellas, strict emotional restraint and no sex is what you're in for. The jedi will not know love or anger and all that other stuff. Why else was Yoda so reluctant to take on Anakin skywalker and then Luke? The older they are the more likely they are to question. As it happened both of these wanted to be jedi, they knew more or less what it was, and more power to them. But what about the younglings? What did they know? Surely some of them, if left alone for a few years, would come to objectively look at the whole jedi thing and the life of say, a Han solo type, and opt for the latter? But no - they were reined in when they were none the wiser. So, how do you like them apples?

Kidhuman
01-31-2004, 04:22 PM
The kids had a special gift. They werent brainwashed. They could of left the Temple at any time. It was there way of life as they knew it. Heck, Ididnt have topost in here but was I brainwashed too? No. I chose on my own free will to do so, just like they chose to stay and be trained. I am sure as they grew older, they knew what they would miss out on. Being a Jedi was a gift, not a curse. They knew right from wrong, good from bad, just like the thing that you couldnt mention.

stillakid
01-31-2004, 05:11 PM
They could of left the Temple at any time. .


You know, this is one of those arguments that the Pro-Prequel people deny when making excuses for Anakin's behavior in AOTC. They have claimed that Anakin's anger at Obi Wan was justified because Obi wouldn't allow Anakin to go check up on his mother when the wet...er, um, bad dreams started happening. I disagreed but of course was told to stop nitpicking. Of course they're wrong. Anakin could have left at any time he wanted so his constant whine-fest about how Obi was holding him back, etc was utterly ridiculous.

But in terms of this "brainwashing" concept, most people are subject to it based purely on how they're brought up. Most of us are of one particular religion or political party or another for no other reason than our own parents brought us up that way. It's not like they send us to a school that teaches all the brands of diety worship so that we can choose the best one for ourselves. Kids are impressionable and religions take advantage of that for their own benefit. I'm Catholic because my parents are. And they are because their parents were. And so on and so on. So if you take a "gifted" Force manipulator out of the home and forcefeed him/her the "religious" stuff that the Jedi attached to the Force thing, then sure, they're more prone to believing that particular dogma over another. But the hard and fast truth is that the Force is just there. It is a scientific phenomena that enables levitation, telekinesis, and a bit o' mind reading on occasion. Dropping dogma's all over it is akin to how our Earthly brethren attempt to attach their own definition of meaning on what we have around us on this planet.

Just as we have the ability to choose our own way of life after leaving the nest, the Jedi kids too could have chosen something else. Forget being a Jedi. Just think how much a telekinetic guy could clean up by being a bartender or an intergalactic Olympian! :cool: Of course, the Jedi Masters don't want to lose any of their investment so that some kid can go impress chicks with his ability to slice fruit and such in mid-air, so they feed them a steady dose of "Jedi" dogma to keep them around and perpetuate the organization.

Kidhuman
01-31-2004, 08:38 PM
Mods,


please dont close this thread as the religious discussion is based to Star Wars and the Jedi training. I understand if it gets out of hand, but for now can we please leave it open?

kool-aid killer
01-31-2004, 10:01 PM
I dont think they are brainwashed. They are guided, but not brainwashed. How can you explain Jedi who turned to the dark side? Did they finally see the light? No. They seen something that they didnt like about the Jedis (perhaps politics were playing too big a role in determining who was defended or something like that) or they realized the power that they had and turned.

stillakid
01-31-2004, 11:00 PM
I dont think they are brainwashed. They are guided, but not brainwashed. How can you explain Jedi who turned to the dark side? Did they finally see the light? No. They seen something that they didnt like about the Jedis (perhaps politics were playing too big a role in determining who was defended or something like that) or they realized the power that they had and turned.


Well, aside from Anakin, we don't really have any indication of what their upbringing was like. For all we know, Palpatine grew up with a "normal" life when he discovered one night that he could levitate and move stuff around. He may or may not have heard about Jedi school but didn't have the access or desire to look into it. Realizing that this power had more potential than simple parlor tricks, he developed a grand scheme to gain political power in his hometown. That might have gone so well and the fringe benefits were so good that he decided to go for town mayor with the same result. Then governor of the area. Then Senator. Then President. And on and on when he realized that the power potential was limitless. This is all conjecture of course, but I think that one of Lucas's messages with the OT was that power corrupts (as he was a product of the 1960s, this wouldn't be far-fetched). So having Palps not be some disaffected student of the Jedi, as Anakin is, helps to sell this idea even more strongly.

Devo
01-31-2004, 11:06 PM
As is typical its always when you've typed up a huge post that your internet connection messes up, fails to send your post and makes it irretrievable. Sorry. I had a nice response all done out and now its gone. Its the early hours of the morning for me now and I'll be off to bed.

Just quickly though - I was using religion as an analogy for the jedi council snapping up 'converts' at an early, unquestioning age but I personally don't see where offence could be caused although it seems that the mere mention of the word 'religion' is enough to warrant closing threads as far as mods are concerned. I wasn't intending to dwell on this religion analogy and therefore was not expecting or hoping to incite any flame wars. The point was made and people got it, I feel no need to refer to it again.

B'Omarr Monkey
01-31-2004, 11:34 PM
Do we know that Palpatine wasn't somebody else's Sith apprentice? Did he have one of his own before Darth Maul?

I'd have to say, brainwashing issue aside, I mainly feel sorry for the padawan's with hair because they all have to have that stupid stubby ponytail in the back, and that rat tail thing on the side. Maybe Aimee Mann was a padawan back in the 80s. Do the hairless padawan's tease the ones with hair? Do the baldies have to wear some marker of their own designating them as mere Jedi's in training?

I'm not being snide (mostly), just wondering? This is the same sort of questioning that always got me in trouble in Sunday school, so I guess the whole religion question cycles back in.

mabudonicus
02-01-2004, 09:55 AM
Hey Devo, "ctrl C" before ya send, just in case ;)

Good points... this kind of discussion IS allowed, I'm pretty sure, as long as Stilla's finished :D

I think that the concept of Palpatine being outside the Jedi order is an interesting one, never crossed my mind 'til I read it ^ there.....

I think both sides are somewhat right... I think the Jedi, traditionally, were a less dogmatized institution, one which could be very dangerous if someone who wanted to abuse it was the one calling the shots... I think the cocept or the Jedi as altruistic Knights is what made it possible for a bad guy to get in there and start making them do things they don't want... think "naked gun", the best person for a really "questionable" job is a person who doesn't now they're doing it....


In short, the Jedi of AOTC are akin to a crooked police force, even the truly noble-intentioned ones are brought down by the bad apples and inadvertently enforcing their questionably-intentioned policies...

OR I'm just wrong...

stillakid
02-01-2004, 10:54 AM
Good points... this kind of discussion IS allowed, I'm pretty sure, as long as Stilla's finished :D..


The word hypocrite meshes so well with the Banned Topics that it is nearly impossible to avoid it. :D

Tycho
02-01-2004, 10:31 PM
YOU DO NOT YET REALIZE YOUR IMPORTANCE. YOU'VE ONLY JUST BEGUN TO DISCOVER YOUR POWERS! JOIN ME AND I WILL COMPLETE YOUR TRAINING. WITH OUR COMBINED STRENGTH WE CAN END THIS DESTRUCTIVE CONFLICT AND BRING ORDER TO THE GALAXY! IF YOU ONLY KNEW THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE. COME WITH ME. IT IS THE ONLY WAY.


Welcome to the Order of the Sith! Now you MUST obey your Master! You will learn the teachings of the Sith. When you have been well-trained my apprentice, WE WILL REVEAL OURSELVES and AT LAST WE WILL HAVE REVENGE!

To understand Us, you must first understand Justice! Every religion falsely claims itself the vaunted guardians of justice in the galaxy. Yet where was the justice when they persecuted others that did not believe as they did? Where was the justice when they pursued us across the galaxy and exiled us from our homes, our families, and the people we were entrusted to govern and protect? Where was their tolerance for the beliefs and freedom of sentient beings that they supposedly so valiantly defend?

Most religions are the cults of hypocrites and intolerants because they deny themselves the true power of the Force; because they deny nature itself!

The Force is created by the natural evolution of life. And in the evolution of life, the strong have always survived the weak. It is the natural order of things. The strong are supposed to dominate the weak.

The strong can choose to rule over the weak, and protect them - if they so choose - using all the power at their disposal to do so. The strong may indeed have that DUTY! We do not deny that!

But the weak and the inefficient governments the weak propone, stagnate from the paralysis of Fear. The common creatures of the galaxy are weak and so they fear the powerful and set up their political institutions to limit their officeholders' powers. Thus their inefficient governments cannot stop the genocidal slaughtering of whole races while they endlessly debate the issues in the Senates they establish to govern "justly."

Is that justice? How many suffer and die while they debate the question in a committee?

A government with a directed purpose and a clear hierarchy of leadership would never tolerate such chaos under its administration! The Sith Empire had known stability for over a thousand years! We only want to bring our enlightened justice back to the crumbling and decadent galaxy that so desperately needs our help.

WE WILL ESTABLISH ORDER!

Other religious leaders deny their converts the use of their own natural abilities that would allow themselves to gain power, make changes, perhaps even impose a New (and better) Order. They bask in the glory of how much they can be "needed" to settle petty disputes in small jurisdictions, when it is really their own inaction that allows these social crisis to escalate in the first place.

If they are ignorant to this, they violate their own highest codes they claim to hold dear.

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.

MANY IGNORE THAT KNOWLEDGE WHICH IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR FACES!

They don't consider the fact that there exist experiments and research they can do to learn more about their own universe and their own origins.

If they FEAR that in a New Order their gods will not be needed, then they are weak!

There is no emotion; there is peace.

Those of all other religions are only hypocrites. I HAVE MADE THE CASE THAT UNDER THEIR INFLUENCE AND THEIR "LORD'S PROTECTION, THE UNIVERSE DOES NOT KNOW PEACE!!!

If they Fear Death, they are being emotional, illogical and ignorant.

There is no Death; there is only the Force!

and....

There is no passion; there is serenity.

There's no passion, no motivation, and therefore no progress! The religious institutions and faith in prayer over science and taking initiative all serve the staus quo and therefore stagnation! A people that stagnate and do not progress beyond thier abilities are inherently weak.

THEREFORE I SUBMIT TO YOU: THOSE WHO ARE FOLLOWERS ARE THE WEAK!

It is our highest acknowledgement of the truth that the weak must be dominated by the strong. It is our duty to restore a natural order to things to the universe, to stop this abandonment of progress. To bring back Natural Justice!

THEREFORE IF THE WEAK RESIST US, THEN THEY MUST DIE!!!

It is not evil. It is the natural order of things!

Now you must ask yourself if you are a just person? Can you open your mind enough to consider the alternatives to ideas you've always been taught? Can you objectively learn about becoming a Dark Lords of the Sith?

Can you realize I am telling you the truth?

If your forbearers got one thing right it is that knowledge is power!

But then only their elites could acquire that knowledge and become learned. They begged the masses for their faith to keep them ignorant! Power corrupted them, then turned them, and made them lie to you!

BUT I AM HONEST. I OPENLY SEEK THAT POWER!

Why don't You want it too?

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE! IF YOU CAN BE TURNED, YOU WILL BECOME A POWERFUL ALLY. YOU WOULD BE A GREAT ASSET TO US.

CAN IT BE DONE?

Darth Kirk
02-09-2004, 01:00 AM
Interesting take and interpretation on the Jedi and their beliefs Devo.. I don't agree, but what makes this damned country sooo wonderful is that we have the simple opportunity to speak our minds without fear of being penalized in any way, or so I think thats the way this country is, was???.. Obviously your opinion aint gonna be popular here..

The 'Xir
02-10-2004, 02:17 AM
The Jedi? Hypocrites?! NAHHHHH!

The Sith? Hypocrites?! NAHHHHH!

Humans? Hypocrites?!...NAHHHHH!!! You're just finding this out Devo?! ;) j/k

Remember, George grew up, reading and watching all these wonderful mythic fantasies that were all written and done a long time ago in what seemed a galaxy far far away, all except for the Flash Gorodn serials (which he grew up watching) in which he always pays homage to, in the style of his movies as serial cliff hangers! As a result George said he wanted to create a 'Modren Myth' that kids today could enjoy instead of having to read about all these old ones (LOTR included) because we all know how much kids just love to read! :ermm: Remember, if it wasn't for SW some 27 years ago, :eek: I highly doubt we'd be in theatres today watching The Matrix, and the LOTR trilogies!!!
And what do all these myths and legends have within them....morals! This is good ole Georgey boys' own little moral lessons for all of us, his own...dare I say... religion! :speech: Where am I going with all of this? The point is have you ever identified yourself within these movies not so much for entertainment, "wow man cool effects" :stupid: but because it realtes to you on a human level? Well of course you have...I hope... right? I mean, that's in part why we all love these movies right? :rolleyes: Anyways, for example, when Yoda is always going on about, " having patience" and like when he states, to Ben and Mace that, "To sure of themselves they are, even the older more experienced ones" these are just some examples of direct comments/morals from George through Yoda to all of us/the audience?!
We as humans are all of these characters within these movies, we all have the ability or capability of being anyone of these characters(no not reading minds and making things float in mid air), but Good, Evil, Right, Wrong, Humble, Brash, Innocent, Naieve, Honest, Liar, Smart, Dim Witted, Patient, impatient, Loving and Hateful. Along with being, A Leader, a follower, a businesss person, an laborer, a politician, a cleric, a teacher, a slales person, a mechanic, a terrorist or even a hero!
The greatest line I now think from any movie ever, that one answer we humans always keep searching for, the meaning of life and all of that lifes' mysteries crud, can be found within this one simple line/scene from The Fellowship of the Ring when Frodo hopelessly confesses, "I wish the Ring had never come to me, that none of this had ever happened". and Gandalf replies, "So, do all men who see such times, The only thing you have to decide, is what to do with the time that is given to you". :)