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View Full Version : Shameful misuse of the word "of" in place of "have"



2-1B
02-01-2004, 03:37 AM
Has anyone else noticed this? I'm not just talking about SSG (although it feels rampant at times :D ) but I've noticed this all over the web as I surf.

I often read sentences which might read something like, "I would of gone to the store" -- when what the person really means to say is "I would have gone to the store."

Part of it is just ignorance but I also blame part of it on our use of contractions. "Would have" can be shortened to "would've" . . . say it out loud and it sounds like "would of."

Yet I never see anyone type "I of a figure" when he or she means "I have a figure." Of course, it's because the contraction "I've" does not sound like "I of" ;)

Before anyone rips into me for critiquing this bad habit, just settle down. :)
This post is not meant to sound elitist or anything like that (I know I make plenty of mistakes myself in addition to lazily using -- dashes -- and . . . ellipses . . . ). It's just that this specific example amazes me because of the nature of it's misuse.

Typos and mispelling happen to everyone . . . but this seems to have become understood as correct usage. I guess it's like some sort of typed slang ? :D

mabudonicus
02-01-2004, 09:13 AM
I could of started this thread myself :D

Yeah, face it Caesar, grammar ain't what it use ta be :)

PS it drives me nuts,too

stillakid
02-01-2004, 10:04 AM
I started a whole thread about spelling and grammar mistakes some time ago and heard back from some ticked off forumites who didn't appreciate being corrected on an internet chat board. It's possible that we just notice how poorly people spell and write because of the proliferation of email and the internet, but it is clear that a lot of people are just not very adept at grammar in general. Presenting themselves as articulate is not a high priority. Maybe that only happens at a place like this as quick replies are dashed off and sent without much thought. I don't know. I haven't run any surveys of the general population to see how they translate thoughts into scribbles on a a page.

But as someone else here said once, if I get nothing else out of SSG, at least I get to brush up on my proofreading skills. :D

Kidhuman
02-01-2004, 10:31 AM
Yeah, laziness in the grammer department has settled in across America. I am sure that I am guilty of it too, but I could of stayed in school more.

Stillakid, I remember there is a "rat" in separate.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-01-2004, 12:26 PM
Yeah, laziness in the grammer department has settled in across America. I am sure that I am guilty of it too, but I could of stayed in school more.

Stillakid, I remember there is a "rat" in separate.
But you don't remember how to spell "grammar." ;)

Kidhuman
02-01-2004, 01:25 PM
Its part of the point I was making

The 'Xir
02-01-2004, 02:30 PM
Stillakid, I remember there is a "rat" in separate.

LOL, KH you beat me to it!

As far as the 'of/have' issue is concerned, it does just show you how poorly educated Americans really are; and as KH pointed out, how lazy we can get! I'll have to doublecheck myself to see if I do it! I remember JT used to get after me about my overusage of commas, so I'm sure we are all guilty of something.
I also remember about 15 years ago the Emperor of Japan made some derogatory remark, about how lazy and self important Americans are, and we got all offened, and then made such a huff about the whole thing that I think the goverment went as far as banning some Japanese products! The fact of the matter is he wasn't that far from the truth!
The only thing in our defense is that Americans have notouiously come through when it really counts, when the chips are down! Not to say that we don't make mistakes as well, but when there's work to be done and no one else is willing to do it, it's usually the United States that steps up to the challenge! So, if we are arrorgant or come across as self important, it maybe because sometimes we look at the rest of the world as just as lazy as we are, because it always seems that the world looks to us to take care of business! Who knows maybe that's just more of my/our arrogance comming through! ;)
Wow, sorry If I got on a rant, not sure where that came from, but I hope you moderators won't view it as political 'cause I didn't intend it that way! :D :ermm:

Kidhuman
02-01-2004, 02:33 PM
I know I have left grammatical errors on the oard, but thats me. I dont feel like going back to correct them. The only two words I cant remember how to spell correctly is

License and Neccessary. If they are spelled right there, wow, got lucky. I can never remember if its to s's or 2 c's in neccessary.

dr_evazan22
02-01-2004, 07:16 PM
Back in the fall I was seeing this girl who was, well, younger then me. She would IM me when I was on line (which was REALLY friggin' annoying because it was everytime we were on at the same time). So anyway, she would type stuff like "C ya l8r". ARGGHHH! I asked her repeatedly to type out what she was really saying because it took too long for me to decipher what she was saying! She said she really could type and spell (Yeah right!), but wasn't because it was only on line.

Needless to say, we stopped seeing each other shortly thereafter.

Kidhuman
02-01-2004, 10:39 PM
This whole Im thing and not using proper grammar irrates me to know end. People need to use proper English, no matter where they are at. I cant imagine what books and such will look like in twenty years. Slang has taken over too much of the normal language. English is going to be obsolete in a few years if it keeps going this way.

2-1B
02-01-2004, 11:09 PM
This whole Im thing and not using proper grammar irrates me to know end. People need to use proper English, no matter where they are at. I cant imagine what books and such will look like in twenty years. Slang has taken over too much of the normal language. English is going to be obsolete in a few years if it keeps going this way.

Cool, I'm glad you feel that way. :D
I won't comment on your lack of apostrophes and your misspelling of irritates as irrates. :crazed:

Now, can you tell me why in your previous post you said that "The only two words I cant remember how to spell correctly is"

when grammar dictates that the plural form of "words" requires the conjugation of "are" and not "is" ? ? ?

"words are" -- not "words is" :crazed:





stillakid, I know issues of spelling and grammar have come up in the past and yes there was some hostile reaction to it. :)
I knew I was taking a risk in posting this but I really wanted to do it because I had a specific example in mind and I thought the reason behind it was funny.

I was not looking to summarily harp on poor spelling and grammar, just the issue of "should of" vs. "should have" because there is a very specific reason for its abuse. :)

JediTricks
02-01-2004, 11:49 PM
I caught myself using "should of" instead of "should have" recently... actually, that's not entirely true, I caught that misuse from a previous night's post and didn't bother to correct it. I believe it's the very first time I've made that boo-boo. But like right now, I'm a little out of it and finding it very hard to not make mistakes, which means that for every 10 or 20 I find there will probably be 1 that slips through the cracks. JEEPERS! Just typing out this paragraph to this point has resulted in so many uses of my backspace key that I'm probably just better off walking away from the computer, but I won't because I'd like to get through all my forumizing in one sitting so my "last visited" time doesn't roll over.

I am a comma-abuser, I have a hard time remembering that there's 1 "C" in necessary, and license can be spelled either way if you don't mind crossing international spelling boundries (the British spell it "licence"), I often find myself stymied by "separate" because of "sentence" which has no "A"s at all, and I have a hard time remembering when to use the apostrophe-S on a word or name that ends in "S" such as: Lucas' vs. Lucas's.

stillakid
02-02-2004, 12:02 AM
My own curse revolves around proper apostrophe usage. My wife is always looking over my shoulder for that one.

mabudonicus
02-02-2004, 08:19 AM
Apostrophes.... MAN

I have tried to get the rules on them little beggars straight in me head for years... I SWEAR last time I fully, completely understood it, and yet, everytime I go to use (or NOT use) one, I'm not sure.... I KNOW they are for contractions, to take the place of the missing letters.. then you get to possession, which is where I just decide by how it looks....

Yeah, spelling mistakes aren't as bad, some may make me cringe, but at least if they make good sense you can read them... Like Doc E posted, it's the IM-speak that is mega-annoying (notice I included some old-school slang there??? At least we used real spellings of real words)
A couple of my buddies occasionally (there's one of my nemises) use little bits of that stuff in e-mails and I really don't know why; I can't understand it at all (notice the semi-colon, properly used, a few words back?:D)
Abbreviations are no problem, like IIRC and stuff, especially if you're talking to wiseacres... plus, most folks that use them, use them for saving on typing common phrases, like shorthand, and not because it's cool and "normal" folks won't get it, making them "square" or whatever...

I guess it's in F8s hands now ;) cos it looks like the trend is established...

Oh, and there's a good reason for this phenomenon (nother 10 dollar word:)), but we're not supposed to bring it up. It's pretty insidious, though, to be sure.....

Kidhuman
02-02-2004, 08:23 AM
Cool, I'm glad you feel that way. :D
I won't comment on your lack of apostrophes and your misspelling of irritates as irrates. :crazed:

Now, can you tell me why in your previous post you said that "The only two words I cant remember how to spell correctly is"

when grammar dictates that the plural form of "words" requires the conjugation of "are" and not "is" ? ? ?

"words are" -- not "words is" :crazed:

Well, if you look back at most of my posts in this thread I have included some sort of grammar snafu(if that is a word to you). All part of my point to be lazy. I almost never include apostrophes in any post while online. I dont know why I "spelt" irritates irrates, didnt see that when I proof read my post.

stillakid
02-02-2004, 09:08 AM
snafu(if that is a word to you).

As it is an abbreviation, it should be written S.N.A.F.U. :D ;)

arctangent
02-02-2004, 10:23 AM
As it is an abbreviation, it should be written S.N.A.F.U. :D ;)

actually snafu is an acronym.

stillakid
02-02-2004, 10:30 AM
actually snafu is an acronym.


Ah, yes, thank you. I knew that didn't sound right when I put it down. Thanks! :)

2-1B
02-02-2004, 11:55 AM
I guess it's in F8s hands now ;)


Don't you mean
"I guess it's in F8's hands now" ? ? ? :crazed:

stillakid
02-02-2004, 01:41 PM
Don't you mean
"I guess it's in F8's hands now" ? ? ? :crazed:


I think it's: "I guess it's in F8's hands now," shrugged Mabudon.

"Don't you mean "I guess it's in F8's hands now" ? ? ? :crazed: ," Caesar inquired.

To which stillakid replied, ""I think it's: "I guess it's in F8's hands now," shrugged Mabudon.

"Don't you mean "I guess it's in F8's hands now" ? ? ? :crazed: ," Caesar inquired.""

Mandalorian Candidat
02-02-2004, 05:53 PM
Apostrophes.... MAN


Forget about apostrophes, I'm still stuck on the proper use of the semicolon. Anyone want to give a tutorial on that piece of punctuation?


Let's see, if I were Elaine Benes I would use an exclamation point here, !, here, !, and here!

James Boba Fettfield
02-02-2004, 06:12 PM
Use semicolons to link closely related independent clauses!


Immigration acts were passed; newcomers had to prove, besides moral correctness and financial solvency, their ability to read.


Every year, whether the Republicans or the Democratic party is in office, more and more power drains away from the individual to feed vast reservoirs in far-off places; and we have less and less say about the shape of events which shape our future.

Use semicolons to link independent clauses joined by conjuctive adverbs or transitional phrases!


Every kid should have access to a computer; furthermore, access to the Internet should be free.

If you guys want some examples of conjunctive adverbs and transitional phrases, let me know!

Use semicolons to separate items in a series containing other punctuation.


Anthropology encompasses archaeology, the study of ancient civilizations; linguistics, the study of the structure and development of language; and cultural anthrolopgy, the study of language, customs, and behavior.

Well, Andrea A. Lunsford's The Everyday Writer has been put to use! :ermm:


EDIT

I thought I should share this tale of what the misuse of apostrophes can lead to! I hope this chilling account causes some of you to rethink your attitude toward the apostrophe. This account can be found in the aforementioned book from Ms. Lunsford.


The little apostrophe can sometimes make a big difference in meaning. One man found out when he agreed to look after a neighbor's apartment for a few days. "I'll leave instructions on the kitchen counter," the neighbor said as she gave him her key. Here are the instructions he found: "The cat's food is on the counter. Once a day on the patio. Thanks. I'll see you Friday."

Because the note said cat's, the man expected one cat-and when he saw one, he put it and the food outside on the patio. When the neighbor returned, she found one healthy cat-and a second, very weak one that had hidden under the bed. The difference between cat's and cats' in this instance almost cost the neighbor a cat.

I told you it was a chilling tale, but with a valuable lesson to be learned. Apostrophes can be the fine line between living and dying. Think about it. Think. :)

Darth Jax
02-02-2004, 06:24 PM
for a quote within a quote i believe it should be " blah 'blah blah' blah." but really why should you trust someone that refuses to use capital letters.

it grates on my nerves whenever i hear someone end a sentence with the word "with." you rarely see it in print, but you hear it all the time. "want to go with," don't they know you don't end a sentence with a preposition.

Jargo
02-02-2004, 08:59 PM
Oh cow poo to the whole grammar issue!!!!!! Dammit jim I'm a doctor, not a grammaticist!

I was talking to a poor wee asian guy today, who apparently wasin the midst of a university course and attempting to learn Engrish as his second language. He complained to me about stupid contradictory grammar rules and according to him the Engrish language is up its own bum.

TXT speak is in the UK what you in the US call IM speak. People have become so attached to their cell phones over here that they write everything as if they were sending a phone text message. Stupid abbreviations that defy comprehension. It's just as bad in chat rooms though. It took me half an hour to realise that WB was welcome back. BRB be right back. typically stuff like CU L8TR, msg me @ wrk hny. is what you get and have to decipher. So in a sense the English language is moving full circle and we'll simply be using cryptograms, modern heiroglyphs if you will. An alien language for the 21st century that cannot be stopped and is universal almost. Esperanto failed dismally to become a universal language but TXT speak may yet overcome the mother tongue and it will only be those of an academic bent who still cling to the dead English language. People can't even string a sentence together in speech. Ebonics is fast replacing spoken English as a language of choice. combinre that with TXT speak and you have the makings of an entirely new language altogether. One that relies on misappropriated, misused and misunderstood words for use. I wouldn't mind a new language if it at least had some sort of style and sophistication to it. Ebonics is gutteral, TXT speak is moronic. English as a written and spoken wonder of the world is looking rather pale and ill. Don't you think?

Oh and I have a good excuse for not having the best written posts, I've never been to school. Well not to any degree that would be beneficial. I make a lot of mistakes but I'm still more readable than a good proportion of my peers.

Jargo
02-02-2004, 09:02 PM
Now correct me. :)

Kidhuman
02-02-2004, 11:23 PM
Maybe we can call it texbonics.

2-1B
02-03-2004, 01:42 AM
Now correct me. :)

I cuold nevre currect tha typin of such a cute little feller as we seen in dat avtar, Jargo. :nerv:

arctangent
02-03-2004, 05:47 AM
for a quote within a quote i believe it should be " blah 'blah blah' blah." but really why should you trust someone that refuses to use capital letters.

it grates on my nerves whenever i hear someone end a sentence with the word "with." you rarely see it in print, but you hear it all the time. "want to go with," don't they know you don't end a sentence with a preposition.

don't you mean you should never use a preposition to end a sentance with?

mabudonicus
02-03-2004, 09:07 AM
Hear that?? Jargo says we're all gonna be old-world scholars!! I barely graduated High School, so that's an ironic concept in a lot of ways...
It is pretty weird.. as far as I can see, the english language could use a bit of streamlining, but replacing it with litle "in-joke" symbols isn't gonna help in our quest for "concise-ness" :D

This is an interesting discussion, and as Jargo mentioned in the Janet Jacksonm thread, it would seem as if this "dumbing down the culture" effect is really taking hold.
Imagine if no-one could communicate at ALL anymore... freaking scary, if you think about it.

But so far funny thread, fellows(nice italics conundrum, stilla:)), lets keep it interesting 'til we're all INTEL X U L E S8ED

stillakid
02-03-2004, 08:59 PM
for a quote within a quote i believe it should be " blah 'blah blah' blah." but really why should you trust someone that refuses to use capital letters.



Ah, good, I'm glad someone caught that! :D

Are you saying that you wouldn't trust ee cummings?

Darth Jax
02-03-2004, 09:27 PM
Ah, good, I'm glad someone caught that! :D

Are you saying that you wouldn't trust ee cummings?

i was more referring to myself, however since you asked; not a big fan. don't know that it's a matter of trust or not, just not much into poetry. hadn't even recalled the lower case style of writing until you brought it up.

is that a correct usage of a semi-colon?

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
02-03-2004, 10:41 PM
I know I am probably guilty of every major infraction regarding the English language here on the forums at some time another.

My word syntax is not as strong as it should be. I would often get papers back in college saying that I was too verbose, meaning I could have shortened my statement and get the same effect by axing a few (or many) words.

I know on my papers I too, probably used 'of' instead 'have' several times. Call me guilty for starting sentences with 'and' (although it is acceptable in some instances), ending them with prepositions, using slang in formal writing, misplacing commas, reversing clauses, not having consistent verb agreement, dangling participles :crazed: , etc.

It got so bad, that for major papers, I would go to the tutoring lab and have them just check for grammar/syntax only.

I blame the English language as Jargo alluded to. With so many rules, contradictions, irregular verbs, it's a wonder that we learn to speak it and write it correctly (and alas, many don't). And I think I am slightly dyslexic, have below average motor skills, or a combination of both.

Nowadays, it is getting worse. Some school teachers have eliminated teaching Spelling and Handwriting, for the rampant use of computers they feel, will render them unnecessary. And for certain Standardized tests, teachers teach the basic, bare minimum, forumlaic stuff that will get them a passing grade, for fear of overwhelming students with creative writing and other techniques will be too much for them, when it comes to writing for those numerous tests that they will take several times throughout their career.

The 'Xir
02-14-2004, 08:42 AM
Nowadays, it is getting worse. Some school teachers have eliminated teaching Spelling and Handwriting, for the rampant use of computers they feel, will render them unnecessary. And for certain Standardized tests, teachers teach the basic, bare minimum, forumlaic stuff that will get them a passing grade, for fear of overwhelming students with creative writing and other techniques will be too much for them, when it comes to writing for those numerous tests that they will take several times throughout their career.
:rolleyes:

Please tell me your kidding!!! Is this your opinion or a fact? Good god what IS this country comming to! You know what, maybe I'll join a terrorist group and just start firebombing!!! j/k :nerv:
But sometimes I think this country does need a good swift kick in the arse and/or a slap in the face! I'm serious if what your saying is true LBC, then... then... UUUGGGGHHHH, I'm actuallly starting to get ****** off!!!! This country is a joke!!!

I've always had this Idea to reform our school systems, to run them more like educational workshops! I think we'd still need a school system simialr to what we have already to develop those initial skills early on like; reading, writting, and arithmetic! However, instead of having say a 9/10 period day with as many different subject matters being taught, all those periods would simply concentrate on those inital skills as I mentioned. Those could continue to say the age of 7 or 8. Maybe some begining history, as long as it is world-view history mixed in with begining science classes as well until the age of 10. Then seeing as how alot of kids are ready to enter the workforce as early as anywhere between 13-15 years old, the last 3 to 4 years of their schooling should be conducted in these educational workshops that I have mentioned! Because you gotta figure by 9-10 years of age, kids(especially todays kids) are starting to get a feel for what they are interested in, besides playing video games and chasing fire engines down the street! :p
With the advant or pandering I should call it to each kids special needs as "individuals" as so many parents/teachers are doing these days, the workshop environment would be ideal and let a kid explore his interests and develop them properly. Instead of wasting their time teaching kids something which they completely have no interest in, are bored with, and can't wait to get the heck out of class so badly that all they do is sit and stare at the clock on the wall until the bell rings!
The workshop could work on many different levels or let's just say could expand to many different levels as well! For example if or once the workshops become specified, say like a biology workshop or even more specific like a molecular biology workshop, then all of a sudden corporate America can look at these workshops as unlimited employee pooles! However, in order to keep Corporate America from interferring with the education process, these workshops would have to be sponser free! No Tostidos sponsered agricultural workshops! :rolleyes: or anything of the sort! The Fiber Optical workshop, brought to you by AT&T wireless! :crazed: Yes, definitley corporate america would need to be refriained from any influnce over any type of educational workshop, possibly having them entirely state run, no private sector donations either! One idea on how Corporate America could be involved in someway while not interferring but benefit from them still, is that they could have projects the workshops would need to complete for them! Say a phone company is putting in a Central Office somewhere(a CO is a switching center where your phone calls get routed), that areas different workshops could come together to complete the project! You'd need obviously a basic telecommunications workshop, a construction workshop, engineering, electrical, fire saftey/fire suppression, all comming together to complete this project! The phone company would need meanial job workers(janitorial/painters), along with an administration staff to over see the project and communicate with the various workshop leaders.

Think about the way this could totally transform our society! The natural progession of this Idea, could be limitless! Next thing you know, There WOULD be corpoarte workshops, but only in regards to the function of the company itself. training would be done within this workshop styel! Like my CO project Idea above, the workshops would become or would already be the employees of the company! No need for outside contractors, and it would save companies money in the long run! All the companies projects or tasks could be completed within this workshop form. There could be 24hr workshops, educational or work force workshops, with people of all ages attending! You can enter one at anytime, giving you the freedom to learn around your schedule, or just for your style of personality, Some people are morning poeple others are up at all hours of the night. Imagine you'd walk in and there would be say 4-6 small groups of people working on various stages/learning levels of the workshop. If your totally new to it you'd join in at the beginners level, being brought up to speed on what the group is already working on, once you have a handle on that you go to the next group working on something more advanced! Work as slow or as fast as you like. You could take time to help others and other new people arriving, possibly becoming a leader or teacher of the overall workshop! But, everyone working together towards a common goal. This Idea/system would always have a limitless poole of employees and teachers! They bascally keep regenerating themselves, as long as their is sufficient interest and need for it!
The really intersting thing, and probably the hardest concept to accept which would make it hard to put a system like this inplace, is that you essentially can throw out the entire University structure! There would be no need for Universities anymore! And that's a lot of big buck that alot of people wouldn't be willing to just give up(Christ, just think, what would you do with all of the sports teams? How do you go about reorganizing that?!) The thing is instead of being greedy, which most Universities are, they'd have to take it upon themselves to adapt, and to participate in leading these work force workshops. For those people that don't have employment, or say women on maternity leaves or the handicap, anybody really could all particapte in these university run workshops whenever they want to, and can still be learning something useful to better there lives or atleast feel as though they belong and are useful. And, if they are given projects to complete, they are actually accomplishing something and contributing to soceity!

Obviously, this would be no small task, and there's no way I can properly flesh out the details of this Idea here in this forum, or work out whatever kinks it may have, but I hope I got across the basic concept of it! There would need to be a point system inplace to show experience and qualifications within the workshops! But, I do know that because of the nature of this style of learning, it would make it less expensive for everyone involved! There may be a way to incorporate some sort of volunteer process also, that would award credits towards employment or possibly even basic life neccesities! For example, if a qualified person wants to volunteer all his time to becomming a permanent workshop leader he could be rewarded with housing, or food assistance. It's kind of a weird twist on welfare and 401k retirement packages! ;)
Call me crazy, and through me in the dungeon with all those other wackos that said things like the world is round and men could fly one day, I know! However, something needs to be done and who's to say somehting like this couldn't work? Is it next to impossible to implement...yes! But my undying and sometimes naieve hope in my fellow man, allows challenges as big as this one to seem possible! I don't know about you, but I'm always up for a good challenge anyways! :classic:

JediTricks
02-14-2004, 11:21 AM
We have to introduce school kids to alternate subjects beyond their "formative" period not only to give them options, but also to give them a well-rounded educational background to fall back on in case they show no aptitude in their chosen specialty or worse, it ends up going the way of the dinosaur. For example, little Billy goes through his jr high and high school years concentrating on VCR repair, he has the skills to understand everything in the tape path. So he's just about ready to strike out on his own when BAM! The entire industry disappears and his skills are now totally outdated and he has no education past age 12 in any other field to fall back on since VCR repair has almost no application in any other modern electronics field. Billy now has 4 choices: mooch off his parents, mooch off welfare, work at McDonalds or some other low-paying low-hope job, or move to a 3rd world country where VCRs are still being used. ;)

mabudonicus
02-14-2004, 01:44 PM
JT-You forgot option 5-
File some spurious copyright suit against all "instant message" providers claiming that you invented the expression "L8R" while writing a note in 1978 :)
That actually makes more sense than a lot of other stuff that one hears about.

JediTricks
02-14-2004, 03:13 PM
That's not an option - those lawsuits cost money. :D

The 'Xir
02-14-2004, 05:56 PM
If I hadn't mentioned it, my idea laid out above is a transitional one! To make things smoother to go from the current system we have to a fulll workshop educational system that I'd really like to see! Once again certain workshops could be made mandatory early on for a certain period of time! However, in my tansitional plan above, I think 8-10 years is plenty enough time to establish a "well rounded" education before the workshop environment begins!

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
02-14-2004, 11:09 PM
Xir, I think you have good ideas. The workshop scenario deserves to be tested out.

I also know that a lot of Charter Schools are testing out different educational schools of thought. One of the most intriguing involves students being not seperated into a certain class or by age, but by ability and skills progression.

For instance, Timmy, a bright-eyed seven year old can sound-out words, correctly forms his letters, and can string together sentences. For this he may go to "Writing 3" class with other students may be younger or older than Timmy. In "Writing 3" he learns to expand his word choice, puncuation, and is introduced to paragraphs. Once he masters "Writing 3" which may take months or even the whole school year, then he'll progress up to another level. He cannot however move up into he does master it. If Timmy works hard and shows that he can master many things from Writing, to Math, to Science, etc. he may graduate not at 18 but 15 or 16 and go on to college then.

Another difference in this approach is that teachers tend to concentrate on one subject matter, which is unusual for elementary education. Timmy may have up to four or five teachers in one day.

Charter schools also open up a whole new can of worms with tenure and funding as well.

One major problem with our education system today is the amount of students who lack self-discpline. Just yesterday, I talked to a retired six-grade teacher who taught for 35 years and has subbed for the last 5. He told me that when he was teaching you had one kid per class, on average, that gave you difficulty. Now he says the norm is 2 or 3. And the scope of the problems are much more serious. A lot of these students have rough family lives, where their basic needs aren't being met, where they are constantly abused at home, or even the opposite, which is no discpline at home and kids run the show. This becomes a problem as I've heard stories from teachers who say that they cannot even cover the basic material those years because they take 10 minutes out of a lesson to discpline the student and the other kids lose focus and even then, they start to act up when the teacher starts to look squarely on this kid and let's their guard down on the rest of the class.

He also said back then, if he called a parent to tell them their child was having discpline issues in class, the parent would be deeply embarassed and usually the next day the kid was ashamed and would not cause trouble for awhile. Nowadays, many parents care very little about the call and are more offended if it happens and are more concerned at what the teacher's tell their children what they can do and what they cannot do. Also, a lot more kids are being identified as ADHD or ADD then ever before and that is not a good sign.

Darth Kirk
02-15-2004, 01:15 AM
Peeps, the fact remains that the internet, although awesome, has made many careless about grammar and spelling.. In the age of instant messaging and quickie e-mails, acronyms and shortcuts, along with sentences that are missing articles and are syntactically incorrect, will be the norm.. It ainít the end of anything though, the poets and visionaries will save us all.

RooJay
02-24-2004, 10:14 PM
I know it's a bit late in the discussion, but let us not forget my personal favorite - the use of "prolly" in place of the word "probably"! Of particular note since even when spoken, the word "probably" should not even sound like "prolly". Do people that use 'prolly' actually pronounce the word 'prolly' when speaking? :(

Also, if anyone happens to know whether or not I have improperly used those quotation marks, please feel free to inform me; I think I may have been absent from my english class that day! ;)

Kidhuman
02-24-2004, 11:37 PM
You prolly did, but who cares. :D

mabudonicus
02-25-2004, 08:27 AM
roojay,
I sometimes use "prolly" just 'cos I know it drives some people ...sorry :)
And sometimes I do use the word spoken, I tend to pattern my speech according to who I'm speaking with, and prolly is just easier to say quickly I guess...
I tend to selectively mispronounce words if I find them too complex... "wolves" for instance, sounds like ya got a gobstopper in yer mouth if ya say it right, I prefer "wuuves" (sorta rhymes with "doves" but not really)

Speech dynamics are a lot different than written communication, too....

Oh, ontopic- what about "suppose to" that one drives me nuts like "of" does...

Oh, and I DO say "about", in case anyone was wondering... I really don't think we say it the way it is reported, though, some folks do, but then some folks say "meeountain",too

Kidhuman
02-25-2004, 09:23 AM
You say "about" or "aboot"?

arctangent
02-25-2004, 10:27 AM
I know it's a bit late in the discussion, but let us not forget my personal favorite - the use of "prolly" in place of the word "probably"! Of particular note since even when spoken, the word "probably" should not even sound like "prolly". Do people that use 'prolly' actually pronounce the word 'prolly' when speaking?

yes they prolly do!

arctangent
02-25-2004, 10:33 AM
:rolleyes:

Please tell me your kidding!!! Is this your opinion or a fact? Good god what IS this country comming to! You know what, maybe I'll join a terrorist group and just start firebombing!!! j/k :nerv:
But sometimes I think this country does need a good swift kick in the arse and/or a slap in the face! I'm serious if what your saying is true LBC, then... then... UUUGGGGHHHH, I'm actuallly starting to get ****** off!!!! This country is a joke!!!


its not just america, you know. in the uk noe we start testing 6-7 year olds in school and they then face tests almost every year until they leave. if schools don't have good average grades for their pupils they are in trouble, so teachers have stopped teaching chilfren how to read, write and spell properly and now concentrate their time on teaching children how to pass tests, because that is now how teachers and schools are judged.

Kidhuman
02-25-2004, 10:55 AM
Its the same where I live in America. The kids are based on SOL testing(standards of learning). This is the main reason I pulled my two tykes out and started homeschooling.

The 'Xir
02-26-2004, 11:25 AM
its not just america, you know. in the uk noe we start testing 6-7 year olds in school and they then face tests almost every year until they leave. if schools don't have good average grades for their pupils they are in trouble, so teachers have stopped teaching chilfren how to read, write and spell properly and now concentrate their time on teaching children how to pass tests, because that is now how teachers and schools are judged.

Good Lord! :rolleyes: These systems just show how ridculous this problem has gotten, because if teachers AND FACULTY would just teach the subject matter as is, and know that their students have a good understanding of the subject matter, ya wouldn't have to worry about wether the kids were gonna pass these tests or not! I know there are other problems, like the students home life/structure which if not a strong one causes problems at school and in class. But there are ways to deal with out of control students, so overall the problem is the systems in place and how they go about teaching our children, and why I keep going on about something different like my workshop idea!

arctangent
02-27-2004, 08:56 AM
the trouble is now that all the teachers are completely paranoid now about exams. if they don't get enough children to pass they are labelled a bad teacher with no account taken of the standard of children they teach of the area they teach in. the schools are paranoid becuase if they don't get enough kids passing the exams they have their funding cut, they get labelled a bad school and parents will think twice about sending their children there. if a school doesn't get enough pupils going to it again its funding gets cut and the local education authority starts to look at whether the school is actually needed and might actually decide to close the school down. therefore pressure is put on the headmaster by the school govenors and he in turn puts pressure on the teachers.

i am glad that i am:
a) not at school anymore
b) don't have children of my own to have to worry about their schooling.

unfortunately i think kidhuman might have the right idea. i know a woman who is a teacher herself and was so appalled at the level of education that her three children were getting that she quit her job, pulled her children out of school and now teaches them herself at home (and in the uk this is not an easy thing to do). they are very clever children and she can devote all the time to them that she needs to. not only that, but she is not restricted to a classroom. if she is teaching them history, she might take them to the natural history museum or the british museum. if she is teching them science she might take them to the science museum. she takes them to art galleries and loads of different places and makes their education fun and interesting. and they are still passing their exams.

Kidhuman
02-27-2004, 12:17 PM
There is nothing unfortunate about it Arc, the children are taught what we want them to learn and at a pace they can handle. We claimed religious exemption, so now the state and school-board can not touch us. If we didnt want to teach them anything, we dont have to. We ar exempt from any school laws. We were also the first people do get this exemption in our area according to the school board. Teaching the children at home is fun, easy for them and alot less hassel on us. If we stay up late, we dont have to get up at 6am to get them on the bus at 7am. They were leaving here at 7am and not getting home until around 430pm. Thats longer than a work day for adults in most places. School boards have gotten out of control lately. Focusing on these tests to get funding is dumb. And this "no kid is left behind" thing is even crazier. If a chgild isnt up to speed, let him repeat the grade instead of pushing him along. If they dont understand fourth grade work, there is no way they can do fifth grade work.

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
02-28-2004, 11:00 AM
arc, sounds like the same exact situation that we have here. What gets me is the part of being labled a "bad school."

I live in a suburb of Buffalo, NY, which has a poor public school system. Poor in results and poor economically. Many of their schools are labeled as "failing" schools because of poor test schools. They are indeed endangered at losing much funding for if the results continue, then drastic cuts may be made and the schools future may be in jeopardy. The problems is that Buffalo is in economic decline and money for school is scarce. The classes are crammed with people; I've heard that some first-grade teachers have classes with 27 people, which is an overwhelming number for kids that age. I cannot imagine the discpline issues that teachers like these have to face.

Another unfortunate part to consider, is that many of these kids who live in the city, come from broken homes and have many life issues on their plate. School is something many of them cannot handle. This makes it supremely difficult for everyone at the school, especially teachers. I've known teachers, who actually pick up students from their house to school because the child's parents, (or often parent) can't even provide transportation or get them ready in time for the bus. How can it be expected that these students pass a test at the same rate as say a surburban or rural school when you have so many other issues to deal with.

Did you also know that special education students are expected to take and pass the same test as a regular education student? Those results are factored in to the passing rate.

It seems counterintuitive for the government to cut off money for these schools because of failing test grades. At the same time, some suburban schools around the city receive enough money from Albany that they can build a state-of-art weight room in some of their schools, ones that rival those of professional sports teams and can afford to send 8th graders to a weekend field trip to our nation's capital with minimal expense for the student.

On the flip side, the state have indeed "dumbed" down the tests. I'm no expert on testing, especially the way they used to do it in the old days, but I've heard discussions among academia decrying the fact that comparitively, what students were expected to know at a certain level years ago, versus what they are expected to know at a certain level now, are vastly less and less.

At the same time, special modifications are made based on student's abilities. These may include doubling the normal time of a test allotted. Others are laughable, such as those who get the test read to them (while that helps students pass, I do not see any other benefit) and even worse, students may also have someone else do their own writing (again benefits?).

At the 4th grade level, one that I am most familiar with, teaching in NY State is like this:

Sept. - Jan.
Heavy preparation in writing & reading for the State ELA (English/Language Arts) Test given in January.

Jan. - May
Heavy preparation in Math, Science for the State Math and Science Test given in April and May.

Jan. - June
Heavy prepartion in Social Studies for the State Social Studies Test given in October of their 5th grade year.

Can you see how the burden of testing is placed on a 4th grade teacher? The whole year kids are given practice tests up the wazoo, to the point where they will become sick of them and grow to hate them.

In summary, testing is a part of school life. It is a necessary evil for we need to know what level a child is progressing. But too much emphasis is placed on them, at too early a level, and it stifles the creativity of many good teachers. Students learn to hate these tests and it is reflected in the results. States do bend over backward to make sure students pass them, but as I said, are their benefits for the students in doing this?

Dumbing down is an issue of it's own. If in third grade, learning long division is the norm, yet on the 3rd grade test, it is never asked, then what incentive does the teacher have to teach it if their student is not going to be tested on it. Whey confuse a kid when they aren't expected to know it for the test? You might warp their little mind to the point where they :eek: might get confused while taking the end of the year test. Then the 4th grade teacher who wants to move past long division to something more challenging, can't because the last year teacher never explained. So he/she will have to "cut" something out of their long-term plans and let the 5th grade teacher worry about. This continues so on and so forth, until the end of a child's progression in high school when they will ultimately learn less then their predecessor years ago.

Overall this is a touchy issue needless to say :ermm:

Kidhuman
02-28-2004, 03:18 PM
LBC

As a former New Yorker, who went through Public School systems there, all I can say is there are alot of issues that need to be dealt with. One is the over-crowded clasrooms. In the city, some classrooms have 35+ students in them. That is way to many students to deal with. They have added on extra classrooms and made schools bigger to help with that probelm. The 2 elemantary schools that I attended(due to moving) had both expanded before I left. One added a third floor across the entire building, and the other just added on to the exsisting building. I have seen trailer outside of some schools as well.

Another problem in NYS is the pay rate teachers get. They do not get paid enough to deal with all these students and issues. They don't even get paid for tutoring after-school. Because of this issue, less and less people are becoming teachers in NYS.

I for one am glad I raise my two step-children in Va. I have been asked plenty of times by my old bosses tomove back to NYC and they would pay me more than enough to live on. The one reason why I do not move back is the education system.

mabudonicus
02-29-2004, 08:15 AM
We say "about", it just sounds like "aboot" to some people...
Sorry, carry on fellows :beard: (something about that smiley)

Kidhuman
02-29-2004, 10:44 AM
We say "about", it just sounds like "aboot" to some people...
Sorry, carry on fellows :beard: (something about that smiley)


Beard man rocks, its "aboot" time we had a good smilie. :D :beard:

arctangent
03-01-2004, 07:36 AM
There is nothing unfortunate about it Arc,

i only put the word unfortunate because in the 21st century you should be able to send your children to school and expect them to receive a good standard of education from their first year to their last, rather than it being unfortunate that you are teaching your children at home. i bet they love it and you are obviously in control of what you teach to them.

You are lucky in as much as you have been able to achieve this. in the uk it is very hard for a parent to withdraw their child from school to be tutored at home. you have to be able to prove they are going to be educated to school standards and you have to explain how you are going to achieve this. and then the authorities still try and stop you.

and we have a similar situation, lowly bantha cleaner. in the uk's inner cities their are many children who either do not speak english as a first language or do not speak english at all. the schools they go to are still expected to meet their targets with no account taken of this fact.

2-1B
04-25-2008, 05:09 PM
I remember JT used to get after me about my overusage of commas,

What about your overusage of exclamation points?

Phantom-like Menace
04-25-2008, 06:24 PM
I'm always bothered when someone says they're going to try and do something. If you say you're going to try and repair your car, grammatically, I'm not sure what you're going to try, but you've told me you're going to repair your car as well. If you tell me you're going to try to repair your car, then it's grammatically clear that the only task at hand is the attempted repair of your car, a task at which you're not certain how successful you will be.

Mad Slanted Powers
04-25-2008, 06:46 PM
We say "about", it just sounds like "aboot" to some people...
Sorry, carry on fellows :beard: (something about that smiley)

From my experience, it sounds more like "a boat".

JimJamBonds
04-19-2009, 11:18 AM
Has anyone else noticed this? I'm not just talking about SSG (although it feels rampant at times :D ) but I've noticed this all over the web as I surf.

I often read sentences which might read something like, "I would of gone to the store" -- when what the person really means to say is "I would have gone to the store."

Part of it is just ignorance but I also blame part of it on our use of contractions. "Would have" can be shortened to "would've" . . . say it out loud and it sounds like "would of."

Yet I never see anyone type "I of a figure" when he or she means "I have a figure." Of course, it's because the contraction "I've" does not sound like "I of" ;)

Before anyone rips into me for critiquing this bad habit, just settle down. :)
This post is not meant to sound elitist or anything like that (I know I make plenty of mistakes myself in addition to lazily using -- dashes -- and . . . ellipses . . . ). It's just that this specific example amazes me because of the nature of it's misuse.

Typos and mispelling happen to everyone . . . but this seems to have become understood as correct usage. I guess it's like some sort of typed slang ? :D

Have your feelings changed on this?

dr_evazan22
04-19-2009, 04:41 PM
Along a similar thread to the subject...

A couple of years ago I was waiting tables at TGI Fridays. One nice and sunny afternoon I approach a gentleman to take his order. He points to what he wants and asks: "Can I re-derange this?"

"Excuse me?"

"Can I re-derange this? ya know, get X instead of Y?"

"Oh yeah, go ahead, just tell me what you want."

Oddly enough, if he had just dropped the "re-", he would of been.... Er, would HAVE been correct.

to upset the arrangement, order, or operation of; unsettle; disorder



Equally as frustrating as would of, if not more so, are all the errors that are appearing in on-line news articles (in everything, really). It may be a correct word spelled incorrectly for its use (read/reed-read/red), or a word that passed spell check, but has no place whatsoever where it was used.

It comes off as amateurish. I guess the next progression to spell check will be sentence check or grammar check.

Slicker
04-20-2009, 03:05 AM
Equally as frustrating as would of, if not more so, are all the errors that are appearing in on-line news articles (in everything, really). It may be a correct word spelled incorrectly for its use (read/reed-read/red), or a word that passed spell check, but has no place whatsoever where it was used.

It comes off as amateurish. I guess the next progression to spell check will be sentence check or grammar check.I've been noticing this one a LOT lately. It's really sad if you think about it. These people were allegedly smart enough to get hired for being able to right storys but they can't even spel rightly.

Slicker
04-20-2009, 03:13 AM
Equally as frustrating as would of, if not more so, are all the errors that are appearing in on-line news articles (in everything, really). It may be a correct word spelled incorrectly for its use (read/reed-read/red), or a word that passed spell check, but has no place whatsoever where it was used.

It comes off as amateurish. I guess the next progression to spell check will be sentence check or grammar check.I've been noticing this one a LOT lately. It's really sad if you think about it. These people were allegedly smart enough to get hired for being able to right storys but they can't even spel rightly.

sith_killer_99
04-20-2009, 06:45 AM
^ Yeah, plus sometimes they write something, and then write the EXACT same thing 8 minutes later.;)

Slicker
04-20-2009, 08:15 AM
How the HELL did that happen?! I for realziez only hit submit once and I surely didn't hit it again 8 minutes later!! Hmmm...I guess I should of went back to check my posts.

sith_killer_99
04-20-2009, 09:32 AM
I guess you should of.;)

Wow, not only did I use the word of instead of have, I also ended my sentence in a preposition!:eek:

Darth Jax
04-20-2009, 10:52 AM
It comes off as amateurish. I guess the next progression to spell check will be sentence check or grammar check.

Did Word ever have that function? Early editions of Appleworks had grammar checks and would assess what level of writing was contained within a document?

JEDIpartner
04-20-2009, 02:03 PM
Is this about those who "of" and "of not"? LOL

Mad Slanted Powers
04-20-2009, 06:46 PM
Did Word ever have that function? Early editions of Appleworks had grammar checks and would assess what level of writing was contained within a document?

Word has grammar check. I must have had it on an old Appleworks (probably when it was still Claris Works) program. Whenever had it check grammar, it often said I was using the passive voice.

RooJay
04-21-2009, 01:34 AM
This is still a big peeve of mine - even when I use the contraction out loud it doesn't sound like 'of,' but more like 'av' or 'ev.'

JEDIpartner
04-21-2009, 12:15 PM
Agreed!!!!! :yes:

Darth Jax
04-21-2009, 08:04 PM
Word has grammar check. I must have had it on an old Appleworks (probably when it was still Claris Works) program. Whenever had it check grammar, it often said I was using the passive voice.

it was appleworks first, then merged with clarisworks and kept the clarisworks name, but since most people still referred to as appleworks it eventually switched back. now apple's word processor is "pages"