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JediTricks
02-10-2004, 06:29 PM
You'll have to forgive the rather inflamitory title, I couldn't think of another way to say this in such a short manner. When explaining why the OT DVDs would be the Special Edition versions of the films, here's what was said:

Despite pleas from "Star Wars" fanatics all over the world, these DVDs will not contain the original theatrical version of the movies. Instead, the DVDs will include the much-debated versions director Lucas released in the '90s with new digital effects and plot twists that softened the character of Han Solo - even though DVD makes it easy to offer both the original and director's cut of a movie.

It's simply a matter of an artist's right, says Jim Ward, a Lucasfilm vice president and the executive producer of the set. "We realize there's a lot of debate out there," says Ward. "But this is not a democracy. We love our fans, but this is about art and filmmaking. [George] has decided that the sole version he wants available is this one." "This is about art and filmmaking" cute comment, makes Lucas's motivations here seem almost altruistic of the art... too bad it's bunk.

Let me explain by posting a overview of the Special Editions.

In the mid '90s, the vault that contained, among other things, the master print of Star Wars, was opened and the SW print was examined only to discover it was badly deteriorating. Lucas decided that the print must be salvaged immediately or it would become unusable and thus lost forever, so he began the Special Edition project and intended to release the salvaged film for its 20th anniversary in '97. In order to salvage the print, ILM technicians would have to go in and digitally color-correct each frame.

Then Lucas got the bright idea that he could simultaneously go "fix" things he didn't like about the film's original version, such as the poorly-rotoscoped hover effect on the landspeeder as it passed through Mos Eisley, as well as add in a scene he cut from the original due to what he perceived as a lack of necessary filmmaking tools to properly complete the scene - this is the now-infamous Jabba scene - where Lucas had originally shot Han talking with an actor standing in for Jabba with the plan that the Jabba would be added into the shot as a special effect but found that no '70s effects looked convincing enough; Lucas had always regretted losing this scene and had made mention of it several times before the Special Editions had ever existed. Lucas and his producer partner for Star Wars, Gary Kurtz, had long since gone their separate ways and so Lucas brought on a relative newcomer as the Special Edition producer, Rick McCallum - who had worked on Lucas's Young Indiana Jones series and the film Radioland Murders. Lucas eventually ended up not fixing all the f/x gaffes (just the ones that bothered him), gutted many of the space sequences in exchange for CGI, and changed a few performances and sequences of the film.

Ironically and unfortunately, this "fixing" seems to have ultimately destroyed the very reason Lucas began the project in the first place - to salvage the original Star Wars for posterity.


As the buzz around the 20th anniversary "special edition" release of Star Wars grew during '96, Lucas decided he could also release the other 2 movies in the trilogy, and since he was already making headway with the Star Wars SE, why not give ESB and ROTJ a "special edition" treatment while he was at it? Granted, the master prints to ESB and ROTJ were in no danger of being lost due to deterioration, and Lucas had not actually "made" either of the films except for writing the basic outline for each, executive producing them, and rumor has it stepping in to direct & edit portions of ROTJ; for ESB, long considered the best film of the series by most fans, Lucas had actually stayed away from production most of the time; basically, the Special-Editioning of ESB and ROTJ was an arbitrary whim on the films' owner's part rather than a product of necessary film repair.

So Lucas altered portions of each film, adding in new sequences and new effects, changing and replacing performances, and even adding a new musical number to ROTJ, even though he was not the director, writer, or producer of either film. They were his by right of ownership and creation, and therefore his right to tamper with those creations took precedence over the rights of the actual artists and filmmakers who made those 2 films.


It seems a little hypocritical and two-faced then that Lucasfilm makes the claim that the SEs being the only versions of ESB and ROTJ available is about the art and filmmaking when Lucas himself is not the chief artist of either film.

Mandalorian Candidat
02-10-2004, 07:34 PM
While I agree with your line of reasoning JT, I'd like to know your source on this timeline, i.e., deterioration of master print-->fixing of FX flaws-->do what ever the heck I want. I wonder if it happened in that order or if he was planning on doing this all along once he got finished making stuff like Radioland Murders and Howard the Duck and had nothing else to do. I'm not necessarily doubting you; I'd just like to get where GLu says this.

We've done the OT vs. SE to death, so it's nice to have a different take on the whole thing. I just can't get past why both versions can't be made available, especially on a format as versatile as DVD (which is what Lucasfilm keeps saying about it).

Kidhuman
02-10-2004, 09:18 PM
Both versions should be made available. But according toG. Lu, the only version of ANH is the SE, right? or was I reading that wrong? I am sure there is another copy out there of the film somewhere. All you need todois get your hands on it. If the could make a DVD off of laser-disc, then it could be done toget the original remastered and on to DVD by G. Lu.

Darth Jax
02-10-2004, 10:19 PM
nice post JT. couldn't believe i wasn't reading some of stillakid's prose though.

stillakid
02-10-2004, 11:13 PM
nice post JT. couldn't believe i wasn't reading some of stillakid's prose though.


Nice. :D Sorry to disappoint you, but I had nothing to do with it. Just like my own comments, the above is verifiable fact. That some people feel the need to "protect" George and his decisions doesn't dissolve the facts of what happens. As JT points out again, George clearly wasn't entirely happy with the original versions so when the opportunity presented itself to "improve" the films, he did so.

I for one am not necessarily opposed to improvements made to superficial aspects of filmmaking, like production design or visual effects. However, when "improvements" begin to influence story or character, the filmmaker has to tread carefully lest unintentional changes cause ancillary dominoes to fall. What that means is that while I didn't mind the "fixes" when it came to stuff like X-Wings and sand vehicles, I'm not so sure that having Greedo shoot first or having Luke scream like a little girl count as "improvements."

Of course, as M.C. suggests, its not a bad idea to take an alternate look at George's decisions. So in that light, I'd put forth the possibility that George knew that the Prequels probably wouldn't be that good, so by "wrecking" the classic OT films, he could bring them down easier than he could bring the Prequels "up." :D Point being, if they are all just mediocre, then he'll have a cohesive saga which spans the decades.

Kidhuman
02-10-2004, 11:18 PM
But he can not make us forget what we already have learned. We know the truth behind the fact that Greedo never shot first. He forgot that one little part. And it is out there for future generations to see.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
02-11-2004, 12:34 AM
So in that light, I'd put forth the possibility that George knew that the Prequels probably wouldn't be that good, so by "wrecking" the classic OT films, he could bring them down easier than he could bring the Prequels "up." :D Point being, if they are all just mediocre, then he'll have a cohesive saga which spans the decades.

Good God stilla; can't you keep your tired opinion regarding your hatred for the PT to yourself for one damned thread?!?!?! It seems that you just have to toss it out there for no reason; it's as if you like to read your own opinion and just say to yourself, "man, i am sure am good!" Your OPINION of the PT has NO bearings on this thread at all; so i'm going to politely ask you to save all that jibberish for one of your other numerous "I hate the PT", "Why GL is a big doo doo head" and "Why i should've been the director of the PT" and "Why I hate GL" threads elsewhere. Thank you. :rolleyes:

Anyway, i've been fairly medicore on the whole idea of the SE idea. On one hand, i like the idea that some random touches here and there. The fixing of the hovering affect, the random touch up on the X-wings and etc, but the idea of Greedo shooting first was crazy just as Luke and his damsel in distress scream at Bespin as well as the hideous ROTJ dance scene just makes me cringe. If maybe Lucas went back and touched up Jabba's CGI a bit, which you know he'd love to do, if he isn't doing it already and make HAN SHOOT FIRST, i'd accept these SE's with flying colors. Maybe one day we can maybe get the OT on DVD, but i'm not holding my breath. Until that day comes, i'll resort to my "other" copies of the OT i view. :D

stillakid
02-11-2004, 12:49 AM
Good God stilla; can't you keep your tired opinion regarding your hatred for the PT to yourself for one damned thread?!?!?! It seems that you just have to toss it out there for no reason; it's as if you like to read your own opinion and just say to yourself, "man, i am sure am good!" Your OPINION of the PT has NO bearings on this thread at all; so i'm going to politely ask you to save all that jibberish for one of your other numerous "I hate the PT", "Why GL is a big doo doo head" and "Why i should've been the director of the PT" and "Why I hate GL" threads elsewhere. Thank you. :rolleyes:

Anyway, i've been fairly medicore on the whole idea of the SE idea. On one hand, i like the idea that some random touches here and there. The fixing of the hovering affect, the random touch up on the X-wings and etc, but the idea of Greedo shooting first was crazy just as Luke and his damsel in distress scream at Bespin as well as the hideous ROTJ dance scene just makes me cringe. If maybe Lucas went back and touched up Jabba's CGI a bit, which you know he'd love to do, if he isn't doing it already and make HAN SHOOT FIRST, i'd accept these SE's with flying colors. Maybe one day we can maybe get the OT on DVD, but i'm not holding my breath. Until that day comes, i'll resort to my "other" copies of the OT i view. :D

Uh, no. :) This is all one big happy saga, right? So it's impossible to talk about one film without taking into account the other 6. What's the big deal? :confused: Besides, my opinion of the PT's has nothing to do with it. The PT is what it is and I had nothing to do with it. :)

r3pohh yeah
02-11-2004, 12:51 AM
I loved your post Jeditricks, Im glad you spent the time to discussed the stuff about how GL changed or supposedely "fixed" TESB and ROTJ even though he had little artistic impact on them compared to others ie. the screen writer, directors..etc. I felt your point was valid when you stated..

"It seems a little hypocritical and two-faced then that Lucasfilm makes the claim that ................"

however i think you were still going to easy on George lucas/lucasfilm. I love Star wars which explains why im on this web site just like all of us here but, to learn the the SW DVDs will ONLY be released in their special edition forms is enfuriating to me. I think the special editions were absolute perversions of cinema history at best. If G.L. wants to ruin great movies (whether or not he "made" them) then fine, he has the right to do that. BUT, realease the original SW movies on DVD as well. I know im just blathering but i realy am at odds with this Special edition thing.

oh yeah, was i the only one who wanted to kill G.L. the first time that greedo was seen shooting first??

2-1B
02-11-2004, 02:16 AM
JT's timeline feels pretty accurate to me but I think ManCan's question is a valid one as well. :)

Without question, Lucas rallied around the SE cause in terms of "film preservation" and yes he did end up going further and adding/subtracting/changing stuff.

Personally, it's my gut feeling that he really had both ideas in mind at the same time. It has been documented that George was displeased with certain things about the OT. I just figure he went at it with both ideas at the same time.

All this talk of artist integrity, film preservation, etc. is very noble but I think you have to come down hard on one side or the other. Some people are purists and wanted nothing changed with the OT. Fine. :)
Then there are others like me, who feel "hey go ahead and tinker with it." Of course, then we put ourselves at risk because we may not like something he does. Myself? Well, I like much of the OT changes but some of them REALLY bother me. That's the risk "we" took because as much as I might love the new Wampa, I also got Greedo shooting first to tip the scales the other way. :(

I just have a problem with the idea that it's okay for George to go back and tweak some of the FX and have that be alright while other changes are out of question for him to touch. It creates a slippery line and I don't understand it. It's okay for him to clean up a bad lightsaber shot but it's not okay for him to go "too far" and replace Snootles. (For the record, yes CG Snooty blows hard, I don't argue that it was a good change. :rolleyes: )

Anyway, where's the line? You might say that a cleaned up lightsaber shot is minor and worth fixing and then I might argue that the Sy Snootles puppet was just a special effect anyway, so why not tweak that as well?

I guess the best example I can think of is Palpatine in ESB. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like there are many of the OT Faithful who are generally against changing the films yet it would be okay to redo the Emperor in ESB with Ian McDiarmid. Hey, I'd love for that to happen, but what about the artistic integrity of the people involved in bringing it to the screen? What about the chimp whose eyes were superimposed? :D What about the old lady, the people who put on the makeup, Clive Revill, etc. ?
If talking about preservation, then of course you can't mess with ESB Palps. And at the same time, if youre talking about preservation, then I really don't think you can make exceptions for cleaned up TIE shots, matte lines, see through Snowspeeder panels, etc.

The OT was released a certain way and they became successful "as is."
If you're up for some tinkering, like I was, go ahead and enjoy it but be prepared for some disappointment (like I was).

2-1B
02-11-2004, 03:05 AM
Hey JT,
I just re-read your timeline and I see no mention of the THX VHS Editions. Where do they fit in ? Wasn't that part of their purpose? To clean everything up before the big Special Editions ? I remember the commercials for the THX release during which they said it would be the last chance to own the "originals." So . . . can't they say 'mission accomplished' with the THX and then be done with it?


As far as Lucas messing around with ESB and ROTJ, indeed he was not the director and not the chief artist. Still, having ownership from the first film, he was in charge. I guess he feels that since he brought in these people to make some movies for him, he is entitled to go back and changed what he doesn't like even if it's 2 decades later . . . if I were Tim Rose, putting all that time in on the Snootles puppet and having it cut 14 years later for a CG Snooty, then yeah I'd be pretty ticked. :D
Still, Lucas could have cut it 14 months after they filmed it and it wouldn't be an issue.

I guess kidhuman said it best, "he can not make us forget what we already have learned."

2-1B
02-11-2004, 03:21 AM
the fact that Greedo never shot first . . . And it is out there for future generations to see.

Yeah, on VHS :crazed:

The Lord Lucas giveth and he taketh away.
Such is life.

scruffziller
02-11-2004, 08:30 AM
Does this also mean GL is going to invade our homes and take our original OT mediums and smash them on the curb?:rolleyes:


If anything GL should have both versions of the film to show how he progressed in his art to support his argument in its purest form.:zzz:

Jedi_Master_Guyute
02-11-2004, 09:28 AM
Uh, no. :) This is all one big happy saga, right? So it's impossible to talk about one film without taking into account the other 6. What's the big deal? :confused: Besides, my opinion of the PT's has nothing to do with it. The PT is what it is and I had nothing to do with it. :)

Yeah, it is one saga, but discussion of what Lucas chose to do with the SE doesn't have absolutely ONE inch of bearing on the PT; i don't see why you just can't get it through your head that nobody really cares about your OPINION of the PT anymore, as if they did before; also, you need to understand your opinion is just that, it's an opinion, not fact (i know this might be hard for you to accept that your opinion isn't written in stone), of the PT doesn't need to be brought up whenever you just feel like tossing it out there. Know when to keep your opinions to yourself and to behave yourself. I feel like i'm hitting a puppy with a rolled up newspaper telling it "no, no!!" :rolleyes:

Scruff- lol Yeah, George can have my OT media when he pulls it from my dead and cold fingers!! I think somebody on another thread mentioned an "Alien" type release, where you can decide what version of the film you want to watch. I'd gladly slap down the $$ to buy something like as sometimes it's an OT kind of day; other times it's a SE kind of night!

angellus
02-11-2004, 01:24 PM
If anything GL should have both versions of the film to show how he progressed in his art to support his argument in its purest form.:zzz:

Amen! Hell, Speilberg must've realized this and that's why he released both versions of E.T. They released both versions of the Alien movies on the same DVD.

Art does not exist in a vacuum. Maybe Lucas considers them "his" because he conceived them, but as soon as he employed the craftmanship of everyone who worked on the films, a part of the films became theirs, too. And the movies became ours when they were released in the cinemas. After all, where would he be if we thought they were awful and didn't go to see them a million times--to say nothing of the merchandise we buy to support the.

So he wanted to go back and tinker with the originals? Fine, go for it. But don't forget where you came from and give your fans what they've been asking for, too.

scruffziller
02-11-2004, 01:56 PM
Amen! Hell, Speilberg must've realized this and that's why he released both versions of E.T. They released both versions of the Alien movies on the same DVD.

Art does not exist in a vacuum. Maybe Lucas considers them "his" because he conceived them, but as soon as he employed the craftmanship of everyone who worked on the films, a part of the films became theirs, too. And the movies became ours when they were released in the cinemas. After all, where would he be if we thought they were awful and didn't go to see them a million times--to say nothing of the merchandise we buy to support the.

So he wanted to go back and tinker with the originals? Fine, go for it. But don't forget where you came from and give your fans what they've been asking for, too.
You know what......What if comes down to where GL won't be safe in public anymore where he will get pelted with tomatoes relentlessly by crowds shouting "WE WANT THE ORIGINAL OT"!!!!!!!! He can't hire enough security to chain the monster he created.:dev:

angellus
02-11-2004, 02:13 PM
You know what I think? I think this is just like the skit Eddie Murphy did about chasing the ice cream man. Where he said, "The ice cream man always drove an extra block! And I know he seen us! I think he was just in the truck with his friends saying 'Watch how fast I'll make these little m&*%er f*&$ers run.'

Lucas is probably sitting back--knowing all along that he plans to release both versions of the trilogy--and just watching to see how far we'll chase the ice cream truck.

Bosskman
02-11-2004, 03:52 PM
I've been silent for far too long on my disgust for certain changes made into the SE. The first being that hideous thing in docking bay 94 that I won't even consider naming Jabba, because, truth be told, it looks more like the love child of Grimace and Mr hankey, and second that absolutely horrible musical number in jabba's palace. The old rebo band was freakin' sweet. It was one of the most 80's of things there was in the 80's and it has been ruined. RUINED! The old Sy Snootles was a cool lookin alien, but the new one lokks like something out of who framed roger rabbit. The old Yuzzum (glimsed only briefly in the background when oola is getting pulled toward the rancor pit) was so scary he gave me nightmares when I was a kid but that joh yowza is just terrible. I don't mind rappertunie or the new drummers, or the twilek, or the rodian, but that pink dancer is nothing more than a star trek reject. To make matters work and to add insult to this most grievous of injuries, the cool lapti nek has been replaced by that most unmentionable of horrors. That freakin song makes me wanna puch fat ol lucas in his bloated, swolen, expanding head. To hell with his artsy tomfoolery. He needs a pin stuck in his head to let out whatever noxious gasses are poisoning his mind. I pray that the DVD's offer some remedy to these woes. I can see how it would be easy to fix Jabba, that would actually make the scene good. But I have no such hope for my precious rebo band, short of putting the old Lapti nek video in disc 4 as and extra. Curse Lucas! We hates it forever!!

Bosskman
02-11-2004, 04:18 PM
While we're on the subject of artistic interpretations I shall adress this vent to that lard-headed fool lucas himself: You cannot clain sole responsibility for star wars. It toook hundreds of people with more talent and "artistic vision" than you to come up with these movies. Without the cool designs of the characters, vehicles, beasts and envioronments,(few of which you desogned you designed yourself by the way, only approved of) Star Wars would be nothing. Face it georgie, the story itself is pieced together with more rubber bands and bubble gum than a sea-king helicopter. Without the cool characters of the OT (which are more of a colaboration of the actors and the designers than your "artistic vision") the movies would blow. Vader is cool because he's vader, chewie because he's chewie, they're just as cool in some of the worst novels i've ever read as they are in the movies by vertue of their effectivess as characters. You never made some deep mythological saga you old fat out=of touch money grubber, star wars is what it is because of all the people who made it and when. Nostalgia for the 70s and 80s are what brought it back, not all this mythological drivel you spout from you yap. You're about as deep as a melted snowflake. If you change what people liked in the 80's then Star wars is no longer what it was. I'll buy your DVD's lucas, don't you worry about that. You'll get your money. My 50 bucks will look mighty good linin' you're pockets. Just don't tell me what I like, because Star Wars does not belong to you you fat sluggard, it belongs to the fans, and I can imagine away all you're stupid last minute hang-up l;ike greedo shooting first and the fact that jabba in ANH looks nothing like Jabba, and I can also imagine that Lak Sivrak is still in the Cantina, just outside of camera shot he is. And on my star wars shelf george, you'll be pleased to know that he's havin a drink with none other than ketwol. Heck, Bea Arthur's even there. (in my imagination not on the shelf) Because, at the end of the day, since Star Wars is all make-believe, I can make believe away all you garbage. If I want depth to a story and see well conceived movies and DVDs, I'll turn to LOTR, but my Star Wars will always be MY Star Wars, and there's nothing you can do about it georgie boy. NOTHING!

Reefer Shark
02-11-2004, 06:53 PM
Not that I'm bashing the SE's..... I actually liked a lot of the changes (of course, I hated the Jabba in ANH, Greedo shooting 1st, the "improved" Jabbas palace song in ROTJ...). But some of the other stuff was pretty cool: The revamp of cloud city, the showing of Darth's shuttle on Hoth, etc..., etc...

However, this really does stink of GL's inflated ego. The SE's were'nt as popular as he would have liked. But instead of accepting that, he's fighting it to his dying breath by literally forcing the SE's on us (I know, I know, only buy it if you like it... whatever, you know what I mean ;) ).

That aside, I'm still looking forward to these DVD's. Bring on September!!!

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-11-2004, 07:08 PM
Well, I first saw the SEs when I was 7, and those are the versions I know and love. I didn't see the original versions until this past summer. In some places I like the SE better, and in some places I like the original better.

I, for one, like the new version of Jabba's band. Like George said, it was supposed to be a break from all the serious stuff and be weird and funny for a while. The old one really sucked, and while the new one isn't perfect but I like it. The only thing wrong with it, IMO, is the animation. Same with the other CG scenes (except X-wings etc.). And while the SE may have made sme things worse for some people, it made a lot of things a whole lot better - the Wampa, the Sarlacc, the space battles, for instance.

I'd like for there to be a special feature on the DVD that has all the scenes in their original form, that were changed. You could watch the old then the new, or just the old. That would be a way for people to see the old scenes and compare them with the new. George could explain why they changed.

And remember, they said on the 1995 videos that that would be the last time EVER to get the original cuts. I know this was before DVDs and all, but still. So just remember that.

vadersvette
02-11-2004, 09:19 PM
Why no have both on one DVD??? Some DVD's have a menu to play widescreen or fullscreen, others include a director's cut. Lucas is erasing the past. Now the only ORIGINAL trilogy is the "Last Chance" Videos, which I'm going to try to burn onto DVDs. :dis: :dis: :frus: :mad: :mad: :cry: :cry:

rbaumhauer
02-11-2004, 10:41 PM
I've got a week's vacation coming up, and one of the projects I hope to complete is the creation of an "ideal" version of each film, mixing the best from the SEs with the originals. So (hopefully) I'll get the improved SFX shots, but not the stupid story changes.

I already have the DVD burner and video capture hardware, now I'm just waiting on the magic box to get past $^@&#^ Macrovision, and I'm set. While I'll no doubt buy the SE DVD set, I'm not giving in to Lucas' insistence that the SEs are the ONLY "real" versions of the films.

bobafrett
02-11-2004, 11:35 PM
I wonder if they'll ever release a version that you can add the SE scenes you like, and leave the ones you don't out. That IMO would be cool.

Bosskman
02-12-2004, 05:30 AM
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE some of the SE stuff too. Like others have already mentioned, the Wampa, Sarlac, Space battles, etc are awesome in the SE. The prequels too are also full of awesome stuff that I love. In fact, AOTC is probably my second favorite SW movie after ESB. (in some ways but in others it will always be the OT). It's just when we see blatant Lucas effluent such as SE Jabba, SE rebo band, JAR JAR BINKS (at least in TPM, in AOTC, I never found him too bad, especially in the senate) and other such crap that I cringe with loathing of that fat bloated bag of pan drippings. (no not Jabba, but the fatter slug who "created" Star Wars) But I digress. Anyhoo, gotta get to school.

Mandalorian Candidat
02-12-2004, 09:31 AM
Now the only ORIGINAL trilogy is the "Last Chance" Videos, which I'm going to try to burn onto DVDs. :dis: :dis: :frus: :mad: :mad: :cry: :cry:

Anyone know if you can take your videos to a DVD transfer store and have them burn a copy? Is that illegal if you own the original VHS tapes and are just using them for personal use?

Kidhuman
02-12-2004, 09:54 AM
Anyone know if you can take your videos to a DVD transfer store and have them burn a copy? Is that illegal if you own the original VHS tapes and are just using them for personal use?


I kow a place near me does home videos toDVD, but I am not sure about copyrighted material. I guess it depends on the person that is doing it really. Kinda like getting your car inspected ;)

2-1B
02-12-2004, 01:18 PM
Hey Bosskman, I know you're peeved at Lucas but you might want to consider dropping the constant attacks on him for being fat . . . :rolleyes:

Weren't you one of the Holy Rollers yammering on and on about religion back when it wasn't verboten? Holy ****, you're putting your Catholic faith to shame. ;)

For Chrissakes, argue the merits of the OT vs SE and be done with it. :rolleyes:

scruffziller
02-12-2004, 02:04 PM
You know what I think? I think this is just like the skit Eddie Murphy did about chasing the ice cream man. Where he said, "The ice cream man always drove an extra block! And I know he seen us! I think he was just in the truck with his friends saying 'Watch how fast I'll make these little m&*%er f*&$ers run.'

Lucas is probably sitting back--knowing all along that he plans to release both versions of the trilogy--and just watching to see how far we'll chase the ice cream truck.
EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!! That is hilarious!!!! Very well put.:D

Bosskman
02-12-2004, 02:36 PM
Caesar, I aint no "holy roller" and I never claimed to be. BTW, it's not like I hate fat people or anything (I used to be pretty damned fat when I was a kid myself) I just find it deplorable that so many people let themselves go like lard lubbing lucas. If that is offensive to anyone I'm sorry but I just happen to find it disgusting. I know it doesn't really have anything directly to do with the SEs butsince I was trying to insult george lucas I thought I mike make some school-yard type comments about his excess blubber. It might be immature or whatever but who cares? I don't. Hell, most of us here are grown men who play with toys. How "mature" is that? I don't see what my opinion of george lucas has to do with you. Or anyone else on these forums. I was merely expressing my frustrations at what that moron did to Star wars. It helped serve, I thought, to better illustrate my position by comparing the growth of lucas' ever growing dillusional sense of what is cool with his grwing waist line. If you're reading more into it than I intended, I'm sorry. I'm not out to insult anyone here but george lucas.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
02-12-2004, 04:16 PM
Caesar, I aint no "holy roller" and I never claimed to be. BTW, it's not like I hate fat people or anything (I used to be pretty damned fat when I was a kid myself) I just find it deplorable that so many people let themselves go like lard lubbing lucas. If that is offensive to anyone I'm sorry but I just happen to find it disgusting. I know it doesn't really have anything directly to do with the SEs butsince I was trying to insult george lucas I thought I mike make some school-yard type comments about his excess blubber. It might be immature or whatever but who cares? I don't. Hell, most of us here are grown men who play with toys. How "mature" is that? I don't see what my opinion of george lucas has to do with you. Or anyone else on these forums. I was merely expressing my frustrations at what that moron did to Star wars. It helped serve, I thought, to better illustrate my position by comparing the growth of lucas' ever growing dillusional sense of what is cool with his grwing waist line. If you're reading more into it than I intended, I'm sorry. I'm not out to insult anyone here but george lucas.

You might try to raise some points, Bosskman, but still, it's a matter of respect and courtesy for your fellow forum members. The fact that most of here are adults and enjoy action figures really doesn't give you any basis to toss out such insults regarding somebody's appearance and weight. Plus, i think a majority of the folks here are mature and can act like adults and the fact that we're collectors doesn't make us immature. Being "immature" is just being annoying for the sake of it and disregarding common logic and thought. I really don't see any correlation with Lucas getting chubbier (has he? i haven't looked) and SW films. With that logic, i could say that, "As bosskman gets older, his manners and respect seem to slip a tad" which i like to assume isnt' the case. I used to be overweight and have lost it, but i still respect people of all sizes. Take a cue and be courteous. That is all. :)

JediTricks
02-12-2004, 06:03 PM
While I agree with your line of reasoning JT, I'd like to know your source on this timeline...WHAT?!? How DARE you question my sources?!? ;) J/k, mainly from the Insiders that were coming out at the time, also from Lucas's interview on the SE videos and SW.com, but chiefly from the Insiders. I can assure you, it was all from the horse's mouth (or the other end of the horse, aka Rick McCallum :D).



Both versions should be made available. But according toG. Lu, the only version of ANH is the SE, right? I agree with you, both versions SHOULD be made available. Lucas says that the "only" version is which ever version he's put out most recently, the previous versions are now um... "inaccurate", I guess.



nice post JT. couldn't believe i wasn't reading some of stillakid's prose though.Thanks... I think. ;) Actually, I've been discussing this issue on our forums for longer than stilla's been a member (unless he was under a different name before and didn't post in his current style).



Anyway, i've been fairly medicore on the whole idea of the SE idea. On one hand, i like the idea that some random touches here and there. The fixing of the hovering affect, the random touch up on the X-wings and etc, but the idea of Greedo shooting first was crazy just as Luke and his damsel in distress scream at Bespin as well as the hideous ROTJ dance scene just makes me cringe. If maybe Lucas went back and touched up Jabba's CGI a bit, which you know he'd love to do, if he isn't doing it already and make HAN SHOOT FIRST, i'd accept these SE's with flying colors. Maybe one day we can maybe get the OT on DVD, but i'm not holding my breath. Until that day comes, i'll resort to my "other" copies of the OT i view. :DI too like the smaller touches like the X-wings (I wish the hovering issues on the landspeeder had been fixed BETTER though, that's just some weak ILM work there), but the larger stuff just didn't cut it for me. I am going to end up getting the SEs on DVD because I am a sucker, but I'm still going to hope for getting the OT laserdiscs and turning them into DVDs.



I loved your post Jeditricks, Im glad you spent the time to discussed the stuff about how GL changed or supposedely "fixed" TESB and ROTJ even though he had little artistic impact on them compared to others ie. the screen writer, directors..etc.

...however i think you were still going to easy on George lucas/lucasfilm. Thanks, I really appreciate that. :) I was expecting to be badly flamed by the time this thread got to post 10 and am glad to see that's not (yet) the case. I wanted to put my thoughts and memories of the SE situation in context to the recent LFL statement without coming off as what some have called "a negative nelly" or a crackpot, so it meant a lot to let that post flow when I made it and unlike most of my other long posts, I didn't really need to edit it all that much. Actually, it started as a short sentence in my PDA, something I thought about the night before, and was initially going to be a brief post. :D

You are not the only one who feels I went too easy on LFL with my comments after the evidence above, but I didn't want to come off as overly hostile, so I really had to think about how I felt when I made that statement.



I just have a problem with the idea that it's okay for George to go back and tweak some of the FX and have that be alright while other changes are out of question for him to touch. It creates a slippery line and I don't understand it. It's okay for him to clean up a bad lightsaber shot but it's not okay for him to go "too far" and replace Snootles. (For the record, yes CG Snooty blows hard, I don't argue that it was a good change. :rolleyes: )I agree (except for the "just" part). ;) I still don't understand how Lucas can look at ESB and decide to change Luke's line about not tasting very good or the slightly-see-thru snowspeeder panels, then go look at the horrible matte-work in the Rancor pitt and NOT be absolutely compelled to fix that.


Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like there are many of the OT Faithful who are generally against changing the films yet it would be okay to redo the Emperor in ESB with Ian McDiarmid. Hey, I'd love for that to happen, but what about the artistic integrity of the people involved in bringing it to the screen?I am one who is on the fence with that, leaning slightly towards replacing it with McDiarmid since the holo-Emp looks pretty odd anyway (I mean COME ON, upside-down chimp eyes?!?). I am an "OT Faithful" I guess but some changes I loved, like the Falcon taking off from Mos Eisley, that scene would DEFINITELY get cut into the JT-edit; it's the stuff that doesn't work and is on a different level that generally bothers me about the SEs, stuff like Greedo firing first, the ROTJ Jabba's Palace musical bit, Luke's scream in Cloud City, Han running into an entire platoon of Stormtroopers, etc..


The OT was released a certain way and they became successful "as is." If you're up for some tinkering, like I was, go ahead and enjoy it but be prepared for some disappointment (like I was).Um... no. If I had to choose which version I'd want on DVD, I'd choose the OT over the SE no question, but I don't see why if Lucas MUST make changes, that there have to be so many bad ones.



I just re-read your timeline and I see no mention of the THX VHS Editions. Where do they fit in ? Wasn't that part of their purpose? To clean everything up before the big Special Editions ? I remember the commercials for the THX release during which they said it would be the last chance to own the "originals." So . . . can't they say 'mission accomplished' with the THX and then be done with it? To answer that last part, no, I think they can't. THX tapes are basically the maximum quality you can get out of a VHS tape, but they are still hampered to the limitations of the VHS format which are pretty limiting especially when you factor in that the DVD format was only 2 years away from those THX tapes' release.

The reason I didn't mention the 9-year-old THX tapes is because they weren't created to salvage the master prints, I believe they were made from secondary prints and only intended to be about the final version for the VHS home market, not keeping the OT alive for posterity.




Does this also mean GL is going to invade our homes and take our original OT mediums and smash them on the curb?:rolleyes:No, he's going to let time take care of that. VHS and Laserdisc formats are both subject to deterioration as well as antiquation. This is what really bothers me about keeping the OT off DVD, sure the format is limited, but it is going to have longer life and future systems are likely going to be backwards-compatible. Lucas has been talking about digital formats and HD-DVD/Blue-Laser DVD for a while, he has been pushing these technologies on the public for years and now he wants to deny that public the ORIGINAL trilogy?


If anything GL should have both versions of the film to show how he progressed in his art to support his argument in its purest form.:zzz:That is an excellent point! You get a gold star for that one.


Art does not exist in a vacuum. Maybe Lucas considers them "his" because he conceived them, but as soon as he employed the craftmanship of everyone who worked on the films, a part of the films became theirs, too. And the movies became ours when they were released in the cinemas. After all, where would he be if we thought they were awful and didn't go to see them a million times--Two gold stars for you! :D Another great point, I've long felt this way about the situation.


Bosskman, although I think the original Sy could have been a little better, I certainly prefer her over the CGI mouth monstrosity we got. I agree with you about the Lepti Nek sequence, I thought that was a great part of ROTJ that was just completely destroyed by the monkeying of the SE (though I never noticed the Yuzzum in the original).

That freakin song makes me wanna puch fat ol lucas in his bloated, swolen, expanding head. Ever see the avatar Thrawn asked me to make for him? http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/image.php?u=9&dateline=1027663179

Maybe I shouldn't show that to you after your 2nd post there though guy, you might have some anger issues that it'd touch off. ;)

Bosskman
02-12-2004, 06:06 PM
Sorry JMG, I don't not respect people who are overweight, I just get so insulted when some rich fa- you know what - movie type guy is telling us what we're supposed to like it causes me to snap and lose it. If my foot gets in my mouth in the process, well, what can I say? From my own experience I really do believe that, for most people, obesity is a physical manifestation of another sort of ugliness but I was only blasting lucas, and meant no insult to anyone who has a serious weight problem. Actually, if you want to know, when my sister was getting heavier, I insulted her so bad and so often that, to shut me up, she actually went out and lost about 20 some pounds. It was almost sort of a motivation for her. As far as the maturity issue, I was merely pointing out that it is a relative term. Many people think that it is immature for people my age (mid twenties) to collect action figures. I don't. As for me, my manners are getting worse as I get older but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. As for parallelism of lucas' weight and his idea of what good film-making is, I'd encourage you to look at footage or pictures of lucas in the seventies when he was making ANH, and compare them with what you see on the SE commentaries or the documentaries on the TPM DVD. You can draw you're own conclusions but what you see will show you more than my blabbermouth ever could.

Bosskman
02-12-2004, 06:11 PM
JT, that avatar is awesome. Right in the fat bloated head!!! HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!

stillakid
02-12-2004, 10:26 PM
Yeah, it is one saga, but discussion of what Lucas chose to do with the SE doesn't have absolutely ONE inch of bearing on the PT; i don't see why you just can't get it through your head that nobody really cares about your OPINION of the PT anymore, as if they did before; also, you need to understand your opinion is just that, it's an opinion, not fact (i know this might be hard for you to accept that your opinion isn't written in stone), of the PT doesn't need to be brought up whenever you just feel like tossing it out there. Know when to keep your opinions to yourself and to behave yourself. I feel like i'm hitting a puppy with a rolled up newspaper telling it "no, no!!" :rolleyes:




I don't understand where your animosity is coming from and I might gently suggest you restrain yourself in the future. But my comments regarding the Prequels are extremely relevant relative to a discussion of George Lucas's decision making process. I'm sorry that you don't agree with my evaluation of the Prequels and that is your perojative, but I will freely discuss them whenever it is relevant. I don't believe that it is your decision to make.

But anyhow, Caesar has some really really interesting questions regarding where that line gets drawn between accepting change and lobbying for the status-quo. My personal opinion (I know the difference between opinion and fact) is that when such changes to a film begin to influence the story then it becomes a bad thing. Or maybe it would be more accurate to say story elements, such as plot and character. For instance, Lucas wanted Greedo to shoot first so that Han wouldn't come off as such a cold-blooded killer. Okay, but that alters the established character arc that nobody ever really complained about. On the other side of the scale, "fixing" an effect so that there isn't brown goo under the landspeeder is something else.

This debate can easily spill into other issues like colorization, adapted for tv (full screen), and airline edits. A filmmaker makes a movie at a specific point in history using the resources available to him right then and there. Sometimes there are limitations but that's part of the process...figuring out how to overcome them and create this fictional reality. In the past, if the film isn't everything he/she wanted upon release, then too bad. In most cases this is still true, but when you have a wealthy mogul with ownership rights and the technology at his fingertips, it is a road not so often traveled. But as Caesar wisely points out, it's out of our hands and we have to take the good with the bad. Because George owns the films, he has the right to reedit them into a musical, or a romantic comedy, or a slasher flick if he wants to. Or he could burn them and start completely over with his new-fangled continuity that he's inventing with the Prequels. It's his choice, and in this case, it's an unfortunate one I guess.

I mean, I really liked most of the changes in the Special Editions but there are a few that made little sense to me and I could do without them. But that's why God made digital editing, so that we can take what he giveth and reedit it all as we choose. We don't all like everything George does (as some people here do) and he doesn't have to like that we may reedit his films. But that's the way it works, as Jedi Master Guyute's post above illustrates so well...you can't please everyone so all you can do is please yourself.

2-1B
02-13-2004, 02:18 AM
stillakid, I know exactly what you are saying about story vs. effects and I won't argue those points. :)

Greedo shooting first - I see how that changes the story and that it is a much more serious change than let's say . . . well, JT's Landspeeder example from earlier.

What I was getting at with Sy Snootles is that it does NOT change the story. The Rebo Band have no integral part of the story other than to offer a musical number. Does the SE version really blow ? YES, to me anyway. Does it change the story? No, I don't think it does. It makes the movie a bit painful to watch but it still serves the same function. Whether or not the Rebo Band of the SE is an improvement over that of the OT, well that's up to our own opinions.

So I see a scale with minor special effects tweaks on one end and story changing elements on the other. Greedo Shooting First ticked off ALOT of people as being a key change in the story. Touched up lightsabers and other effects don't seem like a big deal, whether people like them or not.

I'm most intrigued by the middle ground stuff, like the Rebo Band again. For me, that stuff is very big and noticeable. I don't like the new Rebo Band as much as the old but then again I LOVE the new Wampa stuff vs. the old. I don't think either example is a detriment to the story but at the same time they are SIGNIFICANT special effects changes.

Palpatine in ESB - replace him with Ian using the same dialogue and the story is unchanged. Yet, it changes the art of the director, the effects team, and the voice actor. In theory, a "true" purist should be against this, correct ?

Does this seem like a fair evaluation?

I dunno, overall I like the SE but when I draw up a list of pros and cons there are some big cons on there . . . yet several pros to counter them. In fact more pros than cons. But that's the slippery slope I was talking about. I may be delighted by getting a new Wampa scene but then I run the risk of suffering through the new Rebo band.

Ultimately I am on the fence so of course I want BOTH versions on DVD. Ideally, I'd love to edit together my own preferences. Remember when I went off on The Phantom Edit? I think it applies here a little bit. As much as I want to edit together my own OT/SE hybrid, if someone like stillakid comes along with his own cut, I just know it would not be exactly what I'm looking for. We may both like the Wampa stuff but one of us might want Biggs cut out again. So why the hell would I want to watch YOUR cut ? :crazed:

2-1B
02-13-2004, 02:38 AM
Caesar, I aint no "holy roller" and I never claimed to be.

Sorry, I thought I recalled you spouting the same dogma which I was indoctrinated in as a kid. My bad. :D


BTW, it's not like I hate fat people or anything (I used to be pretty damned fat when I was a kid myself)

I couldn't care less if any fat people around here were "offended" by your post. :)


I just find it deplorable that so many people let themselves go like lard lubbing lucas.

Great, then go ahead and start a thread about Lucas' personal appearance and tear into him there. It has nothing to do with his work / butchering on the SEs.


I know it doesn't really have anything directly to do with the SEs

Oh, you already knew that. Sorry for telling you something you already knew. :D


butsince I was trying to insult george lucas I thought I mike make some school-yard type comments about his excess blubber.

Why not use more effective means? Look at JT and stillakid (both of whom I frequently disagree with) -- they find ways all the time to "insult" Lucas but they do it on the merits / insanities of what he has done with the films. It's much more compelling that way. :)


Hell, most of us here are grown men who play with toys. How "mature" is that?

I don't play with my SW toys. YOU ARE A DORK! :crazed:


I don't see what my opinion of george lucas has to do with you.

Since you asked. ;)
You are trying to get across the reasons you hate the SE and on several of those points I might find myself in agreement with you. I say "might" because it's hard to pull out your criticisms between the frequent yammer yammer yammer Lucas is fat yammer yammer Lucas is blubber yammer
:)


I was merely expressing my frustrations at what that moron did to Star wars. It helped serve, I thought, to better illustrate my position

For me it just overshadowed and obscured your position . . . but that may just be me. :)


by comparing the growth of lucas' ever growing dillusional sense of what is cool with his grwing waist line. If you're reading more into it than I intended, I'm sorry. I'm not out to insult anyone here but george lucas.

See, I have to disagree with you here. Lucas has certainly put on a few lbs since the 70s but when I see him on those prequel DVDs vs the mid 90s I think he looks much better. You mentioned his waist line, so look at his jeans on one of those documentaries. I think he has actually slimmed down over the years and looks better. Even his neck which was once rather bloated looking to me, well now it seems thinner.

I'm not saying this to be critical of Lucas in the past, just offering an honest view of his physical appearance. :)

Bosskman
02-13-2004, 06:40 AM
As far as the SE Rebo Band thing goes, while it doesn't change the story, to me, it changes the feel of the movie. The old song fit. I mean, it was an alien song in an alien setting sung by aliens about aliens doing alien stuff. (I forget what exactly the song was about but i'm sure it was something either about dancing or sex. My point is, it was similar to most 80s songs of the time, just with aliens). I know musical tastes are all a matter of opinion and all but I don't think this is. Flash forward to the late nineties. They replace lapti nek with ....shudder... jedi rocks....shudder. Now, in the context of the star wars universe this song makes no sense. First, Jabba hates the jedi, or at least he thinks very little of them, so why would he want to hear an encore of a song that says they "rock"? Second, by ROTJ, the jedi have, in the minds of most, been extinct for decades. Most of the lowlifes probably know less of them than most of us know about know of samurais, or other such extint orders of warriors - probably even less because of the deliberate efforts of the empire to erase them. My point is, why would the denizens of Jabba's palace be listening to such a song (that they apparently find cool by the looks of the movie) when they a: either don't even know of the Jedi at all, or b: know them only as distant memories or rumors of the past. That's like going into a bar in the real world and listening to a song like "Monteczuma and the Warriors of Tenochticlan Rock". It makes no sense. It doesn't fit. That's what I can't stand about the SEs. As for the Greedo shooting first thing, it doesn't change the story either but it does change the feel of han's character. He is a rogue. We're not supposed to trust him till later in the movie. Him shooting greedo first makes the audience think "Hey, what have luke and ben got themselves into? This guy shoots first and asks questions later, they better be careful" Him shooting greedo in self defense does too things. First, it totally negates this aspect of han's character. He's clearly a good guy, and second it completely removes any sense of danger in the scene that was there before by making greedo look even more of an incompetant. Yeah, he shoots at you but don't worry, he couldn't hit the broad side of a bantha from 2 feet away. Again, the story remains unchanged but han's character is diminished. DRASTICALLY. Like many have said, stillakid I believe for one, I welcome thing that 'fix' some of the special effects blunders of old like the landspeeder. Touchups to the space battles, mos eisley, cloud city, the sarlac, and the addition of the wampa scenes were all improvements IMO but I completely understand why people, myself included, would want to have the originals on DVD as well as the GOOD SE changes. They don't necessarily have to be released together, I just find it infuriating that lucas feels it necessary to erase forever what has been made before the advent of CG. More changes I'd like to see for the DVD is the fixing of palpy in ESB and the Rancor matte lines in ROTJ. Again, improvements rather than additions.

El Chuxter
02-13-2004, 12:22 PM
I've not mentioned this until now, hoping things would get back in hand quickly, but I feel the need to stress that personal attacks are frowned upon, and there have been several posts that go down that path. :mad:

We're all going to have differing opinions on the SE's, which leads to a good discussion/debate. But attacks have to stop. I'd really hate to have to shut down this thread, because overall it's a good one, but if things go any farther than they have I may have no choice.

Keep it civil, y'all!

stillakid
02-13-2004, 11:41 PM
Ultimately I am on the fence so of course I want BOTH versions on DVD. Ideally, I'd love to edit together my own preferences. Remember when I went off on The Phantom Edit? I think it applies here a little bit. As much as I want to edit together my own OT/SE hybrid, if someone like stillakid comes along with his own cut, I just know it would not be exactly what I'm looking for. We may both like the Wampa stuff but one of us might want Biggs cut out again. So why the hell would I want to watch YOUR cut ? :crazed:


Isn't democracy great? :D But I wouldn't be so harsh on my editing choices. No matter what choices I'd make, I still couldn't completely cut out all the stuff I dislike from the saga as some of it is too entrenched so your favorite elements would still be around. Much like the AOTC IMAX edit, I foresee a little trimming here and there to both tighten and dump the extraneous slough. I little bit sometimes goes a long long way.

But on the topic of using the DVDs to edit with, I popped the AOTC disc in to capture some clips and the aspect ratio didn't copy over correctly. I'm still trying to figure out what is going on and how to get around it, but I may have to just use the VHS versions of everything.

JediTricks
02-14-2004, 12:07 PM
Caesar, I would say that in a small way, changing the Max Rebo band sequence does alter the story as it changes the seedy tone that was originally created for this part of the movie.

I personally never felt the SE wampa stuff was as closely integreated with the original footage as it should have been, and the new sound effects sound silly, but that doesn't really change the story or even the flow so it does hold up I guess.

With this "true purist" thing, yes, a true purist would have to worry about that, but luckily we don't have to apply these labels to ourselves, we can mine the grey areas between depending on our personal tastes. But no matter what we think, I believe Lucas still cannot claim changing ESB and ROTJ was due to art and filmmaking reasonings since he wasn't a main artist or filmmaker on those projects. For example, the Max Rebo band sequence, Lucas pictured it in his head like the ridiculously overblown musical number at the beginning of Indiana Jones & the Temple of Doom when he wrote the outline to the movie, but either the writer, producer, or director of ROTJ felt differently and since they were chief artists and filmmakers they made the movie their way; flash forward 15 years and Lucas is still holding a grudge about the filmmakers not making the film HIS way, so he changes it to match his vision despite the fact that he wasn't the person who made the original movie.

stillakid
02-14-2004, 09:28 PM
...but either the writer, producer, or director of ROTJ felt differently and since they were chief artists and filmmakers they made the movie their way; flash forward 15 years and Lucas is still holding a grudge about the filmmakers not making the film HIS way, so he changes it to match his vision despite the fact that he wasn't the person who made the original movie.


And therein probably lies the key as to why Lucas chose to write and direct the Prequels all by himself (essentially). He finally has absolute financial control and with it comes the power to create as he sees fit, for good or bad. In fact, he may have gone into all of this (the SE's and the Prequels) with the awareness that it probably wouldn't go over well, but pleasing himself was priority numero uno.

Specifically, I'll have to agree with JT on the Max Rebo Band alteration. While something like this appears to be splitting hairs (or "nitpicking" as some would call it), the "seedy" feel of the original definitely seems to have given way to a Saturday morning cartoon flavor. George definitely decided to play to the kids (and that whole attitude arguably began with the Ewoks).

Turambar
02-14-2004, 11:41 PM
I agree.
The updates to special effects and little bits of eye candy are fine IMO. But changing the whole feel of a scene is something else.
Max Rebo becomes a background character in what was once the Rebo band. We hardly see Droopy Mac. Actually the scene reminds me of one of those Simpson's episodes where the musical is contagious and everyone starts singing. I guess just the way we see one then two cartoons singing, then the scene keeps expanding, and soon everyone seems to have instruments!

It just ruins the element of danger that we were originally supposed to feel for our heroes. The vile gangster, jabba the hutt, becomes a host of a cartoon karaoke party. Certainly no one in that silly group could pose a threat to anyone. Instead of fighting, Luke should have started up a song, got everyone to join in, and then dance away with han and the gang. That would fit the new mood better than the original sequence does.

Bosskman
02-15-2004, 08:16 AM
On the subject of changing songs for the SE, I can't believe nodoy has addressed the YubYub issue. While that song was terrible, in my estimation at least, it was at the very least "ewokish". Don't get me wrong, I think that was a terrible way to end the saga, but I liked it better than that new-age crap we got in the SE. Instead of getting the symphonic music of Star Wars, we get some yuppie elevator music intead. I for one would not complain if George went back to Yub-yub for the Ewok stuff and then got back to the classical for the final scenes and the shots of various other planetscapes. (I actually liked those additions and wouldn't mind seeing a bit more on the DVDs)

JediTricks
02-15-2004, 02:12 PM
Oh, I definitely prefer Yub Nub as well, it's not the epic ending to the saga that one would hope for, but neither is having teddy bears pelt stormtroopers with tiny rocks. Yub Nub feels much more appropriate for ROTJ, more believable and a richer song in its own way. I can't stand the new ending tune.

CropDuster
02-17-2004, 11:34 PM
Anyone whining about the inclusion of the PT into this thread can just keep on whining. The fact of the matter is that the origin of the problems evident in the SE are exactly the same as the ones that are in the PT. Therefore, the prequels are totally fair game in this discussion. George screwed them up just like he did the SE.

Great thread, JT!

vadersvette
02-18-2004, 09:22 PM
The thing I hate the most about the SEs besides the new music, is that several things were cut out of the movies (on the top of my head, I remember "Let the Wookie win" was cut out, and part of the trash compactor scene was cut)

2-1B
02-19-2004, 12:18 AM
Huh? Can anyone confirm that? I don't recall the "let the Wookiee win" line being cut. :confused:

I'm in big favor of the new ROTJ ending, that's for sure. Yub Nub is a fun little song but I'll take the SE version. :)

stillakid
02-19-2004, 08:13 AM
I'm in big favor of the new ROTJ ending, that's for sure. Yub Nub is a fun little song but I'll take the SE version. :)


Ya know, as much as I agree with people who say that Yub Nub is more fitting for the Ewoks, I can't help but like the SE version as well. It has more of that epic feel for the end of a sweeping galactic saga. Looking back, I think that the end could have been reedited to include 20 seconds or so of Yub Nub and then segue into the "FINALE" sequence with the new music. Now, if by some unfortunate miracle episodes 7-10 ever get made, then the SE edition tracks will be woefully out of place as it really puts a definitive cap on the entire saga.

vadersvette
02-19-2004, 04:20 PM
Huh? Can anyone confirm that? I don't recall the "let the Wookiee win" line being cut. :confused:

Yeah... the scene ends with "I see your point sir." At least, I think so. I don't own the SEs, but have rented them recently.

JediTricks
02-19-2004, 09:33 PM
I dunno, those kids singing "wah wah wahhh" didn't feel very Star Warsy to me, and the weak CG landscapes celebrating just didn't come off all that well, they look like cartoons.

stillakid
02-19-2004, 11:02 PM
I dunno, those kids singing "wah wah wahhh" didn't feel very Star Warsy to me, and the weak CG landscapes celebrating just didn't come off all that well, they look like cartoons.


True. Given what has already been established, the "wah wah" doesn't really blend into the rest of the saga musically. Still, it is a "rousingly" EPIC sounding piece of music, moreso than Yub Nub. Visually, those scenes do feel rather tacked on (probably because, well, they were :rolleyes: ). Even given our new context from the Prequels and the SE, the tacked on shots don't blend well with the celebration happening on Endor. I don't know. Neither end is awesome or anything. The original feels too "small" while the newer feels too disjointed. There's no pleasing some people. ;)

Bosskman
02-20-2004, 01:19 PM
Stillakid, I'll have to disgree with you on that one too. I don't think that the new music sounds epic at all. The main SW theme, Imperial March, Duel of the Fates and even Across the Stars are what I would consider epic as far as SW music goes. That end music in the SE sounds like it should have lyrics by Celine Dion and Michael Bolton - just plain terrible IMHO. The only thing that it "rouses" in me is my lunch. Yub yub fits way better if you ask me (allthough I would not consider it to be rousing or epic either).

Kidhuman
02-20-2004, 02:06 PM
Bring back Yub Nub

JediTricks
02-20-2004, 04:13 PM
You know what music was an epic SW ending? ANH's celebration theme music, that was the only really "upbeat ending" music in the saga (sorry, but the cheap peppy disneyland parade music at the end of Ep 1 doesn't work for me even if it IS the Emperor's theme) - I don't think it'd work with the ROTJ ending, but maybe if Williams retooled it a little to fit.

I think Yub-Nub fits ROTJ pretty well, but ROTJ doesn't fit the saga that well so neither does the music.

stillakid
02-20-2004, 04:41 PM
I think Yub-Nub fits ROTJ pretty well, but ROTJ doesn't fit the saga that well so neither does the music.


With that logic, then the only films that do fit the saga are ANH and ESB. :D For my tastes, ROTJ does skim that line but doesn't cross completely into the realm of kiddy silliness that TPM does. AOTC makes an attempt to get back on track, but the dye was cast with Episode I making a complete save back to the glory days of quality impossible.

In terms of all that, I can see where the addition of a pan flute or vocals (not Ewokian) could be considered "non-Star Wars," but it's not like its really Kenny G or Yanni or anything like that. There are "strains" of Ewok drums layed in there so it wasn't a total departure from the scene exactly.

The Episode I finale is a totally different story. Not only were the (stolen) visuals rather pointless (what the hell was that glowing orb anyhow?), but the music was a bit too electronic as well. Although it does fit with the whole "digital" motif of the movie so we get to leave the theater with that squeaky clean fresh out of the shower feeling. :D