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View Full Version : Anakin must CHOOSE the Dark Side, or the Movie will Fail.



jjreason
02-20-2004, 05:07 PM
Theory: If Anakin's decision to join Palpatine as his apprentice is "understandable", this movie will fail.

Rationale: As of A New Hope, Darth Vader is introduced as the embodiment of everything evil the Empire represents: uncaring, cold, merciless, stupendously powerful. Upon walking onto the screen for the first time, we fear and hate him based solely on his frightening appearance (and that sublimely intimidating Williams score). The following few minutes of screen time enhance our fear and loathing of Vader. He's almost unbelievably bad.

I don't want that opinion changed by watching episode III. I need to see Anakin choose hatred and jealousy over love, Palpatine over Obi Wan, and the promise of great power over his Jedi duty. I don't want to think to myself "I don't blame you, anyone in your shoes would have done the same thing, Ani." For me that will ruin the character as much as taking the decision to kill Greedo out of Han's hands (sorry) spoils Han.

ASIDE: (who I also think needs to be seen as ruthless and cunning to work properly. Leia loves the bad boy, and can't understand why. That's the whole conundrum from her perspective, why minimize it? It's even more suitable now for her to love the bad boy - her mother fell in love with someone capable of slaughtering an entire band of Tuskens, did she not? Like mother like daughter. Sorry, an argument for a different topic I guess).

2-1B
02-20-2004, 10:03 PM
Good post Reason, I'd like to see the same thing. :)

In AOTC I like that I can feel compassion after he took out the Tuskens . . . because I would want to do the same. :D But that's the start of a slippery slope toward evil and by the time Anakin Falls, I don't want it to be for sympathetic reasons.

sith_killer_99
02-21-2004, 12:40 PM
Great thread. I agree with most of your post.

I honestly think that George should have put in the scene where Anakin lost his temper in EPI. Before his days training as a Jedi. It goes to show his inherant lack of impulse control.

Then the character development really takes off when he slaughters all the Tuskens. Again he allows his emotions to control him, but this time he does it after a decade of Jedi training. This really was the most significant event in the PT to date, IMO.

This scene works on soo many different levels. Sure, lots of people can understand why Anakin would kill those who killed his mother, but he slaughtered women and kids!!! Women and kids!!!

I guess that's what did it for me. He murdered innocent women and little kids. The fact that Amidala still loved him after that was pretty hard for me to accept. At this point some part of her has to know he's bad news. I mean, here we have a guy who is supposed to be a Jedi, has trained as one for a decade, yet he lost control and murdered innocent women and kids.

Then he persues her with reckless abandon, again ignoring the mandate of the Jedi code.

It's all about the selfish nature of Anakin Skywalker. Being reunited with his mother, satisfying his bloodlust when she dies, satisfying his desire for Amidala.

His mother fights to hang on long enough to see Anakin, then basicly tells him that she is proud of him, she dies feeling a sense of satisfaction and completion, but for him it's all about his loss, his pain, his anger. He dosen't want to stop death to prevent the pain of the one who is dying or out of some sense of helping, he wants to prevent his own loss.

I honestly think George will do a good job with Anakin's fall. I hope he attacks Obi-Wan out of jelously, maybe Oni-Wan forces a seperation, whereby Anakin will never see Amidala again. Here we go back to the loss and selfish desires Anakin strugles with. Finally, he stops strugling and gives in to the dark side!

I like the way this works because we can see how it applies to Luke in ESB. Luke's refusale to let Han and Leia die. However, in Luke's case he does it for very different reasons than when Anakin tried to save his mom.

This was Yoda's concern, he feared that Luke was only out to prevent his own senes of loss if they had died. Much the way Anakin exploded after he lost his mother. "Once you start down the dark side, forever will it dominate your destiny."

Kidhuman
02-21-2004, 02:41 PM
I agree. TO see Anakin stay with the Jedi would be an utter disappointment. He must chose to become Sith in this movie. The whole build-up from the beginning of the PT has been this, Why he did what he did. We need to see it. We ned ot see his cold, calious heart shine through.

2-1B
02-21-2004, 04:25 PM
The women were not innocent. They were enablers and deserved to die as well.
It didn't seem like they felt compelled to help a fellow woman (Shmi) who was dying. :rolleyes:
The kids, well yeah, that's the real tragedy . . . I guess. But had Ani let them live, there may have been a few more adults ganging up on his son. ;)

stillakid
02-21-2004, 04:27 PM
I've been thinking this idea through for a couple of days and still haven't come up with a solid response. I think that the reason for that is because Anakin's motivations up to this point are so much all over the map that it's impossible to tell whether he's "choosing" his path or is just falling into it unconsciously.

On one hand, he goes off like a brat out of hell about anything that doesn't go his way (like a whiny 3 year old kid). But on the other, when challenged about it (by Padme while she's packing her luggage), he admits that he knows he's being unfair in his tirades. So which is it? Does he really believe that he's being treated unfairly in life so he will take action to make up for it? Or is he just having knee-jerk reactions to things like some kind of bi-polar patient who can't control what he says or does in unconscious reactionary style?

Looking back at the Original Trilogy, we don't really get a sense of where Vader is coming from. There never really is any indication of his "big picture" motivation in regards to the politics of the Republic or his hatred of the Jedi. His attitudes towards those things "just are." What this means is that the Prequels are an open book...practically any motivation Lucas dreams up for Anakin will do and not contradict anything already established by the OT. Anakin can "choose" or not and it won't really make a lick of difference because Vader's actions and reactions in the OT are pretty much very specific to what is happening at any given moment in time, whether it be about Luke or the Rebels or Ben or anything else.

Kidhuman
02-21-2004, 06:21 PM
I don't think the word "choose" is going by dictionary definition here. I believe that we wanna see him turn, not end the trilogy with it still up inthe air

stillakid
02-21-2004, 11:03 PM
I don't think the word "choose" is going by dictionary definition here. I believe that we wanna see him turn, not end the trilogy with it still up inthe air


Wouldn't the fight between he and Obi indicate this? I suspect that we'll "officially" find out that Palpatine is Sidious, so even your most idiotic audience member should be able to put 2 and 2 together to see that Anakin is being courted by a Sith Lord. So when he goes and "chooses" to fight Obi, we'll see that it's either because of another one of these knee-jerk unjustified reactions or because of some justified situation (ie. Obi gets caught feeling Padme up or something.)

Tonysmo
02-22-2004, 01:30 AM
I suspect that we'll "officially" find out that Palpatine is Sidious, so even your most idiotic audience member should be able to put 2 and 2 together to see that Anakin is being courted by a Sith Lord.




WHAT!?? Palpatine is Sidious?? HUH!? NO WAY!!

lol.. kidding. :crazed:

DarthBrandon
02-22-2004, 03:29 AM
(ie. Obi gets caught feeling Padme up or something.)

You mean with the Force right? :D

scruffziller
02-22-2004, 11:07 AM
Looking back at the Original Trilogy, we don't really get a sense of where Vader is coming from. There never really is any indication of his "big picture" motivation in regards to the politics of the Republic or his hatred of the Jedi. His attitudes towards those things "just are." What this means is that the Prequels are an open book...practically any motivation Lucas dreams up for Anakin will do and not contradict anything already established by the OT. Anakin can "choose" or not and it won't really make a lick of difference because Vader's actions and reactions in the OT are pretty much very specific to what is happening at any given moment in time, whether it be about Luke or the Rebels or Ben or anything else.
Thus my philosophy on most prequel stories linked with the original story, prequels are bunk. The backstory is not suppose to be more interesting than the base story other wise it would have started at the beggining of what we know as the backstory.

jjreason
02-23-2004, 09:51 AM
I guess my point is this: I won't be very happy if they're going to expect me to take pity on Darth Vader and/or have "understanding" for how he came to be. That will put an entirely unwanted spin on the OT character, from my perspective.

stillakid
02-23-2004, 12:11 PM
I guess my point is this: I won't be very happy if they're going to expect me to take pity on Darth Vader and/or have "understanding" for how he came to be. That will put an entirely unwanted spin on the OT character, from my perspective.


Yeah, I think I get what you're saying. It would be like asking people to feel sorry for Hitler or some other "evil" person when we later find out that he was from a broken home or had an otherwise difficult childhood. That's all terrible and all if that's the case...no child should be subjected to some of the horrible things that come their way...but it isn't an excuse for the horrific things they might do as adults. An unfortunate childhood may be a reason for why someone becomes "evil," but it doesn't excuse the behavior.

I don't know that we are supposed to feel sympathy necessarily for Vader at the end of ROTJ. We feel good that he "saw the light" and essentially became a martyr to save his own son who represented "good." (What isn't fair is that he doesn't seem to be held responsible for his crimes, but I guess that's what "redemption" offers you. :rolleyes: )

But the above is only true when the OT is viewed in a vaccuum. When we look at the Anakin character as built in the Prequels, he starts out as a fairly sickly sweet and well-adjusted slave. Based on what we see in TPM, it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever for the audience to attribute his "evil-ness" to his life as a slave. He doesn't seem to mind it one bit and has as much freedom as any other kid does. Then as we enter AOTC, this older Anakin is suddenly bitter and angry and exhibits these emotions with wild mood swings and irrational thought and behavior. Where did this come from? We don't know. We are supposed to believe that it's because of him being kept from his mother and being kept from getting his final Jedi merit badge, but neither "excuse" is valid in the least. So with this in mind, his "turn to evil" isn't so much motivated by any realistic or valid political cause or anything...Vader is just the continuation of an immature brat who never really grew up. Who would feel sorry for that? :ermm:

Turambar
02-23-2004, 12:53 PM
I was going to start a new thread, but this seems to be along the same lines, so, let's consider the NEW Darth vader.
As previously mentioned, the Trilogy Vader is this sinister villain who can be hated & feared by the audiences. He is mostly machine. He is a giant of a man, and a fallen hero. Obi & Yoda have given up on him, and send his son Luke to kill him. Luke, however, is the only one who believes in his father and ends up converting him before the end.
The trilogy Vader is quite a bit different from the Saga Vader. As the Saga unfolds here is the new take on this once proud villain:

We now see lil' Ani as a happy-go-lucky slave. Everything is great on the surface. He is taken from his mother by a jedi named Qui-Gon (who didn't exist in the trilogy) instead of befriended by an Obi-Wan. In fact, Ani is much younger than Obi-Wan, not a couple years younger. In a short time, QG becomes something of a father figure to Ani before being killed after the lazy council sends him away to fight a sith with no aid other than his apprentice (who is now jealous since QG gives all of his attention to this new talent, Ani). Inevitably, QG is killed, leaving little Ani in the care of a jealous Obi-Wan who didn't want to train him in the first place -- and a concil that wasn't going to allow his training before changing their minds.
Perhaps Ani's life as a slave wasn't as happy-go-lucky as it seemed, though. He was, afterall, a slave. His single mother didn't keep any tabs on him. Hard to say what things could have happened to the kid during a day. He is at an age where a strong bond has developed with his mother when he is taken from her. He is left in limbo after QG dies. The jedi never allow him to visit his mother for some reason.
Move to E2. We see a skinny man of average height instead of the 6'7" body builder that the trilogy Anakin was. The years of repressed psychological problems are beginning to take their toll on him. The untreated separation anxiety, possible post-traumatic stress disorder, repressed memories, and other personality disorders -- not to mention psychopathic tendencies -- are simply ignored by the jedi. Instead of helping this adolescent to deal with his problems, the jedi feed him rhetoric that jedi don't have nightmares, jedi this, jedi that. Obi-Wan humiliates him in public. He is meant to feel inferior even though in direct contradiction, his ability with the force are greater than his master and all others (thanks, of course to the introduction of microscopic lifeforms that inhabit his cells in greater concentrations than anyone else. Let's not even get into the issue of Ani being conceived by the little bugs.)
It seems that all Anakin really needs is someone who believes in him; a friend. That is exactly what Palpatine appears to be. The moments between Ani & Palpy show a much stronger relationship than Ani & Obi. Palpatine is able to take this need for friendship and use in to ensnare Anakin in the dark side. By E2, Ani is already waist-deep in the dark side. It is impossible for him, now, to become the great hero that the trilogy Anakin was, despite how much his talents grow by E3. He is already lost, and it is the Jedi's fault. This is a case of a misunderstood youth, not a fallen hero. His outbursts in the trilogy, now, are just an immature punk throwing a temper tantrum. It is no surprise than Obi & Yoda have given up on him, Obi-Wan is nothing but a liar, anyway ("when I first met him he was the best starpilot. . . cunning warrior. . . good friend" -- my @#$). They never did much for him before. Luke, isn't any less right. He provides the one thing Ani always needed: someone who actually believed in him.

So it becomes a case of which Anakin or Vader you prefer. Personally, I'll take the fallen hero, as I think that makes for a more dramatic story; relegating the prequels to EU. But, in this day and age, maybe the misunderstood youth is a more fitting tale to tell.

2-1B
02-23-2004, 12:55 PM
Who would feel sorry for that?


I do, because he's not solely angry and bitter as you like to misrepresent. ;)

jjreason
02-23-2004, 06:06 PM
What isn't fair is that he doesn't seem to be held responsible for his crimes, but I guess that's what "redemption" offers you. :rolleyes: )



I don't think there was enough time at the end of ROJ for Luke or any of the others to discuss his responsibility. I think they'd all see him as responsible for the actions he took - they were too relieved and overjoyed at the unlikely outcome of the battle of Endor to begin thinking along those lines. Luke is obviously maudlin, perhaps already coming to grips with the fact that his father WAS in fact responsible for the hardships they had gone through (and countless other tragedies, seen and unseen, named and unnamed).

Turambar: excellent post. I would agree for the most part. One area I might contend would be the Council's "not doing anything" for Ani. Remember initially the council wanted no part of training him. They knew there would be difficulties with starting him at the advanced age. They likely knew very little about how to deal with a boy who had developed mentally to the point Ani was at, having dealt predominantly (if not exclusively) with students starting their training at a much younger age. Part of me wonders if they didn't decide to train Ani for 2 disingenuous reasons: as a favour to the deceased Qui Gon, and as a means of keeping him close. They most certainly recognized his potential for destruction at the first meeting, and maybe decided the most likely way to avert that end would be by beating him over the head with Jedi dogma.

I think the Anakin we've met and watched grow up has the capability of becoming the Darth Vader I know and love from the OT. All I need to see is him consciously choose his path, and knowingly turn his back on his friends. That path - and only that path - will allow me to hate him as much as I need to for the OT to still work. Knowing full well that there's a good person inside that black armor takes EVERYTHING away from Luke's accomplishment (in bringing his father's good side back) at the end of ROJ, and makes Darth Vader a mere puppet of Palpatine. He shouldn't be, in my opinion.

stillakid
02-23-2004, 06:55 PM
I do, because he's not solely angry and bitter as you like to misrepresent. ;)


Okay, I'll bite. What else is he? :)

Darth Kirk
02-24-2004, 02:34 AM
I guess my point is this: I won't be very happy if they're going to expect me to take pity on Darth Vader and/or have "understanding" for how he came to be. That will put an entirely unwanted spin on the OT character, from my perspective.

Well, don't you think Ani's etymology of evil is what we are learning from the PT.. Evil does not exist in a vacuum, people turn out the way they do based on their own experiences, and what we are learning are the events that lead Ani to the dark side.. Pity for him will be felt by some, others will feel understanding, others will be annoyed, I feel we should accept it for what it is and realize it just clarifies why Darth Vader turned out the way he did..

2-1B
02-24-2004, 02:57 AM
Okay, I'll bite. What else is he? :)

He's smashing, love. :D


We've argued it before so I don't want to hijack the thread with our ramblings. :crazed:
I guess I'm just in the minority of people who find him likeable, that's all. :)

Darth Kirk, I like what you're saying. Personally I want to see a hybrid of your idea and Reason's desire to see him make that ultimate choice.

As I said earlier, I like Ani so far. I really do. :)
But with Episode 3 on the horizon, I also want to see him make that choice to turn to the darkside and when I leave the theater, I want to be disgusted by Ani. As much as I can sympathise for Anakin and the number he did on those Tuskens, I don't want to feel that way after (whatever he does bad in) Episode 3.

Does that make sense ?

stillakid ?

:cool:

jjreason
02-24-2004, 04:06 AM
Well, don't you think Ani's etymology of evil is what we are learning from the PT.. Evil does not exist in a vacuum, people turn out the way they do based on their own experiences, and what we are learning are the events that lead Ani to the dark side.. Pity for him will be felt by some, others will feel understanding, others will be annoyed, I feel we should accept it for what it is and realize it just clarifies why Darth Vader turned out the way he did..

I don't argue that point - people do turn out the way they do based on things that have happened to them. Nature vs. nurture, I'm hip. My point is simply to express my preference, my personal hope for how the turn will be handled. I personally will be very disappointed if I feel the movie tries to elicit from me any sympathy for Anakin. That's all.

Kidhuman
02-24-2004, 11:08 AM
Caesar,

That makes perfect sense. I probably would of done the same thing to the Tusken's in his shoes. Maybe wait for them to attack so it seemed justified instead of slaughtering them. Either way, they would of died.

Iwanna be disgusted by Anakin. I wanna see him slaughter his friends. I wanna see him set them up to die and smile about it.

jjreason
02-24-2004, 04:08 PM
Me too. Im so afraid that he'll look at the results of the ruin he's caused, and just start to cry... or worse yet try to off himself by falling into the lava pit (that I still don't know exists - only from reading the novels of the OT stories). I don't want a pathetic ending to Anakin, only hatred and betrayal. Now that I've voiced my fears, I'm even more afraid it will come to pass....... :zzz:

stillakid
02-25-2004, 12:26 AM
He's smashing, love. :D


We've argued it before so I don't want to hijack the thread with our ramblings. :crazed:
I guess I'm just in the minority of people who find him likeable, that's all. :)

Darth Kirk, I like what you're saying. Personally I want to see a hybrid of your idea and Reason's desire to see him make that ultimate choice.

As I said earlier, I like Ani so far. I really do. :)
But with Episode 3 on the horizon, I also want to see him make that choice to turn to the darkside and when I leave the theater, I want to be disgusted by Ani. As much as I can sympathise for Anakin and the number he did on those Tuskens, I don't want to feel that way after (whatever he does bad in) Episode 3.

Does that make sense ?

stillakid ?

:cool:


Your statement was that Anakin isn't solely angry and bitter as I claim. I think that that line of discussion goes validly to the question at hand: what is motivating Anakin to "turn to the darkside?" Is he "choosing" it or is it just happening? So I don't think that it would be "rambling" at all to hear what you think is behind Anakin's behavior besides what I claim (namely the bipolar, unmotivated rage, and mood swings).

As to your point about feeling for Anakin after the Tusken episode, the difference with that particular event and just about everything else Anakin "reacts" against is that he actually had a valid reason to act out in some way. What he did (the killing) is immaterial. His mother was killed therefore he has reason to feel something. Everything else he does (whining about Obi primarily) is entirely unjustified (and keep in mind that he himself admits it). So if he continues on these juvenile rants through Episode III, then we can all rest assured that we won't have to feel sympathy for him. :D

2-1B
02-25-2004, 01:54 AM
Anakin feels torn.
He knows that there are standards and practices to follow in the Jedi Order. As much as he "knows" that he is ready for the trials, Obi-Wan is there as his structure to keep him from getting too big a head. It's understandable to me that a young talented kid like that could be so cocky. It's not justified but it is understandable :)

Anakin feels a love for Padme and wants to protect her when she falls out of the gunship. Once again, Obi-Wan is there to be the voice of reason (not JJ's :D ) and provide the opposing view or whatever. His rant against Obi-Wan may be out of line because of his student relationship but it's still understandable to me because he is torn by his love for Padme.

As an audience member, I am torn when he kills the Tuskens for the reasons KH and I already posted.

"Is he choosing it or just turning?"

Good question. So far, I can't answer that without seeing Episode 3. As of right now, he is "turning" but as JJReason is expressing, I want to see him ultimately choose.

So I guess that overall the answer to that question should be BOTH. We saw him turning a bit in AOTC with the Tuskens and I assume that Palpatine's massaging is adding to an eventual turn. In the OT (ESB), Vader and Palpatine talk about "turning" more than anything. Hey, when Luke was out on that gantry it was Vader using euphemistic phrases to try and turn Luke. "Together we can end this destructive conflict." Sounds nice, doesn't it ? :D

In ROTJ, Palpatine/Vader are trying to turn Luke but eventually he has to make a choice to kill Vader and he backs off. This would not have been a killing in battle but a slaying since Vader was down and helpless.

That's what I want from Anakin. So far I think we've been given some great opportunities to see him being set up to "turn" down the road. I am sympathetic to the things that leave him torn but in the end he will have to "choose the quick and easy path" which Yoda referred to.

The 'Xir
02-26-2004, 02:04 PM
I haven't read this whole thread, but after the first page, page and a 1/2, I don't know if JJ's original concerns need validation! I don't see anything wrong with feeling sympathy for Anakin leading into the OT! There's sort of a natural progression in what we see Anakin go through even for us as human beings outside the theatre! What I mean is, why do we love these movies, and why did we cheer at the end of RotJ? Because deep down we as humans need to know that it's ok if we make mistakes, that good will triumph over evil in the end and that everything will be right in the world someday! We project ourselves onto the screen through characters like Luke or Vader to recognize the good and evil within ourselves!
Why we don't have any empathy for someone historicly like Hitler, is because the man was relentlessly arrogant and stubbornly self absorbed! He showed no signs of remorse and died believing in his cause! So he's the archetype of evil! Anakin however, sees the good in his son, and in the end sees what really is important in life(the life of his son) and commits one truely benevolent act by sacraficing his life for that of his sons, and in the process redeeming all the qualities we as humans regard as virtuous!
So actually it makes sense, if we care about the character(Anakin) before he becomes evil, because although we will recognize the decisions he has made and now look upon him as cold and unsavable(during the time of ANH and ESB) there will always be that longing and hope that he may see the errors in his ways and come back to us on the goodside! As I said there's a very natural progression to it, and I think if we knew somone like Anakin in our own lives we'd want and have that same hope, to know that he could turn out alright in the end!

Because of this 'Natural progreession' as I call it, I don't think there is any doubt that we'll see Anakin make a conscience choice over to the Sith/Darkside! If Lucas understands this progression as well as I think he does, this will just be a natural decision in the story! Anakins character has to make it or else it won't make any sense!There's no possible way it could be left up in the air, as someone pointed out! That would be ridiculous and detrimental to the story! Now should he come out as say, "I choose the darkside", no that would be kinda goofy! But, some act or manner of speaking will define the choice he makes to finaly succumb to the darkside. :evil:
Can't Wait!!! :D

stillakid
02-27-2004, 12:25 AM
In the OT (ESB), Vader and Palpatine talk about "turning" more than anything. Hey, when Luke was out on that gantry it was Vader using euphemistic phrases to try and turn Luke. "Together we can end this destructive conflict." Sounds nice, doesn't it ?

I think that this point that you bring up is pertinent to the discussion. I don't believe that anyone would have been surprised had Luke pulled himself up off the gantry and taken Vader's hand. Here we had a naive farmboy who was quickly "given" superpowers. His abilities grew faster than the maturity to handle the responsibility, which is what Yoda's concern was, so Luke was essentially still as vulnerable as ever if not more and that's the "seduction" that Vader played off of. But the point being is that despite Vader's obvious subterfuge to us, the audience, the character of Luke at that point wouldn't necessarily see the game being played by his father. So he could just as easily have "chosen" to "join" his father with the best of intentions. Who knows, Vader might actually have been telling the truth, that if Luke had joined him then and there, the two of them might have walked into Palpatine's office and organized a coup. Once that was accomplished, there would be Luke at his father's side believing that everything they did from that point on was in the best interest of the galaxy even though, we the audience, would be the omniscient outsiders who could see through to the truth.

Anyhow, what I'm getting at is that Luke was tempted, not by a "choice" to be "good" or "bad," but by a perception of what the "best" options were. In AOTC, Anakin hints at his mindset of being politically disgruntled with the current state of affairs which would be reason enough to believe that he would back political figures, like Palpatine, who stood for change. Quite simply, that's really all Lucas needed for this story. There was and is no reason at all to toss in a bunch of character traits (like the bipolar whinyness) because the political angle was justification enough. But those other traits he exhibits aren't just extraneous...they get in the way and ultimately confuse everything regarding just where Anakin is coming from and why he is "turning" to the darkside. Because of that, the door is open for him to make some kind of goofy conscious "choice" instead of just naturally taking a fork in the road because of what he truly believes to be the right thing to do. Luke had his politics more or less figured out...or so he thought. But the reason Ben hid Luke in the first place and didn't come right out and tell him that "his father" was still among the living is because this young kid wouldn't have been able to really distinguish the separation of who Anakin was and what "Vader" turned him into. Naive-Luke would have run off to go find "daddy" without considering the consequences. He barely made it out of ESB and only in the interim between V and VI did he sift out the distinction enough to deal with the situation realistically. The difference between Luke and Anakin is that the Prequel version of Anakin is so loosely defined in terms of what is motivating his bipolar moody outbursts that his "choice" or "turn" to the darkside seems far more like a pre-existing mental condition wherein he is doomed to be an as$hole no matter what happens. Part of the problem is that we go from seeing squeaky clean Jake-Anakin and jump right into an already troubled dick-head Hayden-Anakin with no transitory story elements to justify the sudden change of character. We don't know what's causing this nonsensical moody behavior so we can't say for certain whether he's seeing straight enough to make a "choice" at all.

scruffziller
02-27-2004, 09:41 AM
I agree. TO see Anakin stay with the Jedi would be an utter disappointment. He must chose to become Sith in this movie. The whole build-up from the beginning of the PT has been this, Why he did what he did. We need to see it. We ned ot see his cold, calious heart shine through.
True, but I don't think it any of this will matter since we know who Vader is. Unless, they have Vader emerge but the movie itself does not reveal that it is Anikin. I have a strong feeling that George will choose this course.

arctangent
02-27-2004, 11:15 AM
Anakin feels a love for Padme and wants to protect her when she falls out of the gunship. Once again, Obi-Wan is there to be the voice of reason (not JJ's :D ) and provide the opposing view or whatever. His rant against Obi-Wan may be out of line because of his student relationship but it's still understandable to me because he is torn by his love for Padme.

i guess that will be the big transition to the dark side. we saw him choose duty over love in aotc by abandoning padme and going with obi-wan. of course he has already secretly defied the jedi by marrying padme but i assume in episode 3 we will see him faced with a choice where he chooses what he wants to do over duty and defys obi-wan and the jedi openly.

mabudonicus
02-27-2004, 02:32 PM
I have read the whole thing :beard:
I agree with much of it.

JJ, you have no worries, he will make the decision, he must... the deal is, I imagine he will make this bad decision (to use the dark side) for good reasons.... the quote about "depending on the beliefs we cling to" sort of sums this up.... I imagine that Vader's eventual redemption is an indication that he was never truly evil, just really involved with it.....

Anakin will choose the dark side as the "lesser of two evils"... true evil is born when good men do nothing... if I'm correct on this, the anakin-vader evolution is more of a study of the true definition of "evil", whether it rests more in action, intention or to what ratio the mixture would be...

In the "big picture", anakin does, ultimately bring the balance back... maybe that's what he was doing all along, no matter what anyone thought...

As for "sympathy", whoever said whatever somehwere earlier in this thread about "sympathy, empathy, whatever" hit it right, IMO, you'll feel what you'd feel, like the feelings apparently engendered by the Tusken Massacre... any reaction other than outrage should indicate some sort of internal conflict on the part of the viewers in the "what does justified mean" sense...
Or GL just doesn't know what he's doing ;)

basschick
05-23-2004, 05:49 PM
i agree - anakin will have to CHOOSE the dark side, not be pushed into it or simply fall into it.

the problem with having understanding for anakin is that in the original movies, darth vader was a mythical bad guy. mythical bad guys don't have motivations. sure, it's not realistic, but myth never is. people keep reading it and remembering it, though.

in the real world, bad guys are bad guys because of their experiences. but in myths and ancient tales, bad guys were bad guys because they were evil. simple as that.

years later, the prequels explain him to us - and we've been through two of them so far. petulant and sulky does not equal merciless, charismatic and powerful. when anakin kills the tuskens, it's more like a temper tantrum. darth vader is cold and methodical. so far, anakin has not been methodical at any time that i can bring to mind.

lucas will have to do a LOT of fast talking to turn this boy into darth vader as we knew and loved to hate him. anakin's character will have to deepen and mature as he chooses the dark side - or else darth vader would have been an immature brat with no self-discipline.

scruffziller
11-27-2004, 01:00 PM
I have come to realize this. Anikin already chose the dark side in AOTC when his mother died and slaughtered the Tusken Raiders. He just hasn't consiously accepted the path yet, till EPS III.

scruffziller
05-19-2005, 04:59 AM
I have come to realize this. Anikin already chose the dark side in AOTC when his mother died and slaughtered the Tusken Raiders. He just hasn't consiously accepted the path yet, till EPS III.

I guess I was somewhat right on that. Well........... I certainly think that Anikin chose the darkside. Palpy just helped him to see why he must. Palpy made him believe that there was no other choice. Palpy nudged him, but he could have refused and he almost did. I think it was done very nicely, better than I expected. There was not one iota drop of pity left for Vader. I can go head strong into EPS 4 now and bask in Vader's evil glory!!!!!!! :dev: :evil: :D What do you think JJREASON?

jjreason
05-19-2005, 06:11 AM
I have come to realize this. Anikin already chose the dark side in AOTC when his mother died and slaughtered the Tusken Raiders. He just hasn't consiously accepted the path yet, till EPS III.

Okay...... I think that's pretty close. Anakin is able to justify his actions against the Tuskens because "they're not human" and they killed his mother. He still knew it was wrong, but it doesn't come close to breaching the trust put in him by the Jedi Council in the manner we see in ROTS.

Having just watched the movie for the first time - literally, I just got home - I haven't properly digested everything yet. I love having seen it, but hate not knowing every detail of what happens for discussion purposes.

My initial reaction is that I'm happy with the turn. I didn't pity him, though they were starting to play upon whether or not what he did was reasonable (which I didn't want to see). For now, I'll accept it because Palpatine's influence over Ani was believable, and the choices that Ani makes throughout the movie are heinous. I had no trouble at all hating him as much as I need to in order to feel the same about the Vader we see in the OT, until he redeems himself.

El Chuxter
05-20-2005, 01:07 PM
He didn't choose it, and it failed. Simple as that. :mad:

stillakid
05-20-2005, 01:20 PM
Yeah, it didn't work. Anakin sort of "chose," but he certainly wasn't really "seduced" either. It was more akin to blackmail. Palps promised this secret to life so that Padme wouldn't die, but Anakin had to save Palps's life first. Anakin had to choose loyalty to Palps in order to get this one thing. And when push came to shove, Palps didn't really have it, so in reality, Anakin should have gone psycho on him as well right then and there.

Just one more Rube Goldbergian plot point from Lucas that doesn't pan out. :ermm:

2-1B
05-20-2005, 01:23 PM
Uh, yeah he did choose it. I thought it was fantastically done. He chose to attack Mace in the interest of saving Palps so he could use his knowledge, and that was a pretty obvious choice of the Dark Side. He knew Palps was touting the dark side so it's not like he was completely duped. Being the good person that he is/was, he realized how terrible that was but as he says to Luke in ROTJ, "it is too late for me, son."

No turning back. lol

Darth Kirk
05-20-2005, 01:43 PM
If Anakin did not give it much thought but is torn throughout, and the precise moment presented itself in the form of Mace vs Palpy, and his 1st instinct was to save Palpy knowing he was the Sith Lord and he cut off the hand of Mace and didn't try to help him when the force lightening was frying him, than yes, I would say that Ani chose the dark side, tho he felt guilt, emotions aren't all black and white, and it seemed as though he begrudgingly chose to align with Palpy, who kept baiting him about eternal life, which echoes what Ani wanted in 'Attack' after he killed the sandfolk.. So no, no failure from my perspective. :rolleyes:

Surge38
05-20-2005, 03:35 PM
Yeah, it didn't work. Anakin sort of "chose," but he certainly wasn't really "seduced" either. It was more akin to blackmail. Palps promised this secret to life so that Padme wouldn't die...
Just one more Rube Goldbergian plot point from Lucas that doesn't pan out. :ermm:

Well, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions :D

scruffziller
05-20-2005, 03:53 PM
Wow Chux.... hated the movie much......:ermm: