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stillakid
03-14-2004, 05:50 PM
Just the other day I wandered into this discussion with a co-worker who began complaining because men no longer seemed to open doors the way she thought they should. Below is part of our continued "discussion" about it...



...In any case, the question you raised regarding whether or not chivalry was dead has been rolling through my head for a few days now. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for humans treating all other humans with respect and, well, if everyone could just be nice to each other then the world be a better place. But I wanted to know what the peanut-gallery thought about this, so naturally I typed "is chivalry dead" into GOOGLE and got back a few interesting links which I've offered below. I suppose if you agree with me, you'll see this as an act of "chivalry." ;) However if you don't, then it'd be something else. In any case, I think that one can get a general idea of how this Medieval (literally) concept is viewed and practiced today:



First, here is a rather nice summation of where this concept of chivarly came from and how it worked:
http://www.kappaalphaorder.org/resources/varlet_materials/varlet_chivalry.asp

And a quick essay about women and chivarly in the 21st century:
http://www.chivalrytoday.com/Farrell-AA/Women-and-Chivalry.html

And the CODE OF CHIVALRY itself:
http://myst.gotdns.com/chivalry.php



Then the personal opinion from a variety of sources. Quick reads...


Some kind of chat board discussion regarding the loss of chivalry:
http://www.mensactivism.org/articles/01/12/04/2138257.shtml


This guy has some strong opinions regarding the United Nations and manages to weave his views regarding women and chivalry into them. Take it for what it is I suppose:
http://www.pulpless.com/jneil/chivalry.html


I imagine that most women would agree with this article, however as she herself states, she wants to have her cake and eat it too. Her rationale behind thinking that full blown chivalry should still exist is that "Even the most hard-core independent woman is still a female. Females have emotions and feelings. Deep down we still want to be treated like a lady with respect, politeness and common courtesy." Really. Females have emotions and feelings? So that's why men should feel compelled to hold doors open? As I said, I think that everyone should think about holding doors open for anyone under any circumstance, but her reasoning is moronic. :
http://www.hsuoracle.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/02/20/403652d75b68d


This takes a slight bit of reading into to, but I like the idea behind this "The folly of chivalry: is it better to die on one's feet than live on one's knees?" In other words, why "submit" to someone else's authority or ask for their help when you are capable of doing something yourself? :
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/2001/04/15/stories/1315017r.htm


And I enjoyed this, um, "bi*tch" session (Chivalry is Dead, and I am an idiot. By Jen) and particularly the responses she gets as you scroll down the page. This one specifically was great!
This whole story was about how poor widdle girly you couldn't find a big stwong man to fix this twicky car thingy. MY GOD! You whine about how men don't know about cars these days. Well , what is a woman like you doing driving a car? Shouldn't you be in the kitchen baking something? You've mistaken being a whiny bimbo for being a bi*tch.

You disgust me and all true bi*tches like me!

Posted by: Sarah Dempsey on June 10, 2003 07:45 PM

: http://www.*****-sessions.com/archives/000187.html

note: you'll have to replace the insistent ***** in the URL above with the B-word :eek: ...god forbid the world will implode if it is written down. :rolleyes:





Well, there are just a few of the interesting things I found regarding chivalry in our time. Call me what you will, but "gender-specific" preferential treatment has no place in a civilization where we are simultaneously expected to treat everyone as equals. I'll hold doors open for men and women alike. Heck, I'll even hold it open for a dog, cat, lizard, or marmaset if need be. But as we sort of talked about briefly, I think that the underlying cause of this perception that chivalry is dead has less to do with the 21st century man/woman relationship than it does a more general sense of selfishness on the part of individuals. While I wasn't there, I can only guess that life in the distant past revolved around family and a tight-knit society. Today, this is a "ME" society where we are taught to live life to the fullest...to please ourselves...to succeed despite others. This isn't a recipe for taking time from our "busy" schedules and go out of our way to helping others in need, even if it is a slight gesture. All of this is very generalized, of course, as there are plenty of individuals left who exhibit kind and courteous behavior. But even if pure chivalry is dead, I'm not so sure that it isn't a bad thing in the end because everybody deserves to be treated equally (until they prove themselves unworthy of such).

Kidhuman
03-14-2004, 06:35 PM
Chivalry seems dead. I for one try and do my part to keep it going. Flowers and little gifts for the Mrs.

There are certain things that I can not do. I have no clue how to fix a car, never have, never will. I mean I can do minor things like change flats and so on. Icould never rebuild a tranny though. That to me isnt chivalry. It would be nice if I could, but certainly not chibvalry.

Now a days, you see young kids pulling up to their girlfriends house, blasting there music and beping the horn for them. They never get out to even at least meet the parents. If a guy ever came to pick up my step daughter like that,she wouldnt even be allowed to leave the house.

stillakid
03-14-2004, 07:36 PM
Chivalry seems dead. I for one try and do my part to keep it going. Flowers and little gifts for the Mrs.


Do you do this with no expectations for anything in return? If so, does she "return" the favor in some way? What if she didn't? Would you feel "slighted" somehow?

I guess the question (for men) is, how much of what we do for women amounts to doing it in the hopes that they'll like us more or "do" something for us? Do men act "chivalrous" more when the lady is more attractive or are our supposedly kind acts distributed equally across the board to hot chicks and unattractive ones alike? Is it chivalry at work or is it something else?

For women (not that there are many here to answer), do you expect men to do things for you just because you are a female? How come? What about being a female entitles you to special treatment? If a man does something for you, do you ever feel obligated to "return" the favor in some way?

Kidhuman
03-14-2004, 08:28 PM
Do you do this with no expectations for anything in return? If so, does she "return" the favor in some way? What if she didn't? Would you feel "slighted" somehow?

I do it because she likes the stuff I get her. She loves little stuffed animals,, flowers, etc. And I do it because I love her.

In return she does things she knows Ilike as well. Makes food I like for dinner, back rubs etc.


I dont want anything back in return. I would do it even if I didnt get anything back in return. It is done of of love and kindness towards the person who are with. It should be a no strings attatched gesture from your heart, not something to say, "I did such and such and you cant return a favor".



I guess the question (for men) is, how much of what we do for women amounts to doing it in the hopes that they'll like us more or "do" something for us? Do men act "chivalrous" more when the lady is more attractive or are our supposedly kind acts distributed equally across the board to hot chicks and unattractive ones alike? Is it chivalry at work or is it something else?

I would say in the beginning of a relationship, a guy would be doing this to make the female like him more. But the key is to do it continously. Dont stop once you landed her into a relationship. 99% of women love the romantic part of a relationship. It makes them feel attractive and above other people to the person they are with. Makes them feel secure.(He does it for me and me alone). They know they are not equals with the rest of the female population in his eyes.

Guys like it as well. The little things a girl does for a guy makes him feel the same way. I know it shows me that Sweetrain loves me and doesnt take me for granted.

The momnet all this stops is a heads up and the woman starts tofeel insecure as well as the guy. The worst thing to do is if the other person stops, for you to stop as well. Women like to be showed they are loved more than hearing it. Anyone can say I love you, and mean it or not mean it. SHowing someone is completely different.

bobafrett
03-14-2004, 10:18 PM
I spent 3 years with my last girlfriend, opening the ar door for her, buying breakfast, dinner, or a movie, I treated her like a princess, and yet she dumped me. You know what, I've decided to go it alone. I try to be nice to every girl I have ever dated, not expecting anything in return. I end up being used as a doormat. Well, I have had it, I might hold the door to a 7-Eleven open, but I do that for anyone, not just women. I refuse to go out and blow one more penny, trying to find a certain someone. Sorry, butr every girl I have ever dated said I treat them like a princess, but........, yeah but they would rather date someone who is going to trat them like some bad boy. Not my style, so bye bye.

Tonysmo
03-15-2004, 04:42 AM
Good topic Stilla.

You touch on a few topics related to this as well.

1st and foremost chivalry isnt dead.. at least depending on who you are.

I would have to begin by stating it all begins with how your brought up.



Parents and siblings I think have alot to do with it. I can only speak for myself in this situation. I have two older sisters. That in itself was a tremendous help for me in understanding how women in general should, and should not be treated.. as I was a 1st hand witness to both sides of it. Most of it wasn't good. My parents were divorced when I was young, but I still was able to hang out with both. Again, this actually helped me to understand what kind of parent I wanted to be. to quote the band that sings "father of mine" - My daddy gave me a name... "Everclear"

anyhow, what I learned from my sisters speaks volumes in how I treat my wife, what I teach my son, and how I treat other people. Most of it, rather oddly, is picked up just by setting examples. go figure..

My son stands at the bus stop every morning. there is another brother and sister who stand there with him.. The brother is always the 1st on the bus. always... this kid is a sh**. but that's another topic. My son however, lets this kids sister on the bus every time before he gets on. We didn't teach him this, its something he has learned on his own, that being nice to people is just the way to go... and in return you can only hope that someday in any given instance someone will be nice to you when you need it.

My kid is a cub scout ( 1st yr weblos ) and I am a leader.. I don't teach these kids - Hey - you need to be nice to women.. I tell them they need to be nice to everyone.
Hopefully they understand. I think he does. His teacher seems to go out of her way to complement his actions to us.. ( mind you - he isn't a prefect kid.. ) but she seems to take his actions as something she rarely sees in kids anymore.. again, that speaks volumes to me.

My wife is somewhat the same way. She is my kingdom. I do everything I can for her, and then some. Sometimes I feel like I go too far, cause sometimes she asks for things that seem kinda outrageous.. i.e., I work midnights, and I come home.. she asks me to go get breakfast.. dammit.. I just worked 10 hours woman, make a freakin egg,. nope.. I say, sure honey what did you have in mind? ( maybe I'm whipped? ) regardless, I do things like that because I love her. Do I expect stuff in return.. well.. sometimes heck yeah.. do I feel a bit slighted when I don't get what I want? sometimes.. heck yeah.. but I carry on. because in the end, I know I did what I could. and that's all I can do. I don't ever feel like I'm a better person because of it though. I do things for her because I want to.

and with that, it carries over. leaving a school function, someone was stuck in the mud. my son and I sat there for a half a second before I parked, blocking traffic and help this guy get his car out. It only took a second, and I didn't even wait for the thank you. Hopefully he (son) learned that sometimes ya "just do it"


Just goes back to that golden rule.. treat others as you want to be treated. You don't need to be nice to Women.. you need to be nice to everyone..

Everyone I meet is a friend, until they prove otherwise. That of course has a different meaning than "best" friends - but I'm sure you all get that..

and Boba.. buddy.. I'm sorry you've had issues in the past. it sucks. I somewhat understand. ( Id be lying if I said fully, as my relationship with my wife has gone on too long ) but seriously.. I've had relationships in the past that have gone bad. It happens to the best of us. Your a cool dude, and an even better father.. but to give up. You cant do that. I've seen you post time and time again about how your done. Your not done. You'll never be done. Your too nice of a guy. All it takes is one woman to catch your eye while your holding that door open. Dropping off that pie to the right door.. hey, it could happen.. there is someone out there for everyone.. call it the force.. call it fate.


all in all.. I believe its how you are brought up.. If your taught to respect others.. it comes natural. If your a witness to see the pain someone goes through - when the respect isn't there.. it comes even quicker for you.. hopefully.

On a side note - I have yet to come across a woman who scorned me for opening the door for them.. and if I do. my response would be a simple "your not special, I hold the door for everyone".. you can add the B word in there for the added effect.

and yeah Boba, women who like to be treated badly.. I'm with ya bro, Ill never fully understand that. that's just plain mental.

I hope thats all understandable..

smo

Exhaust Port
03-15-2004, 09:29 AM
*#$*%^

Did you know that there is a key combination that closes your active window? Argh, I typed out this long response and my fingers slipped and depressed some combination on the keyboard. BAM, the window was gone. So long message...

I'll have to get back to this one later. <stupid computer/user>

mabudonicus
03-15-2004, 09:32 AM
Yeah, I think what Stilla said about the much-vaunted individual "selfishness" of the modern West... the outrageous stupidity of social darwinism and stuff... is to blame for the "chivalry is dead" effect...
I consider myself to be chivalrous I guess... not so much in a "sexes" way, but overall, really.... I am "nice" to everyone, I am respectful to everyone....
Good example... I won't rush to get ahead of a person and open a door for them just because.... if I'm on a "date" I'll make sure that's the way it turns out, but I won't do the "wal-mart greeter", that's just silly.... OTOH, I won't let ANY door slam on ANYONE.... 'specially some of the heavier mall doors and stuff... even if it means standing in the way of the beam on them "auto" doors just to keep someone from getting their face crunched or whatever....

I think never having driven a car makes me more sensitive to the "physical reality" and I try, at the very least, to not make anything worse for anyone...

Two weeks ago I helped a woman push her car out of an intersection... my back hurt for days afterwards as I kicked in to "helping" mode without fully considering the implications, but I would have felt like a jerk if I hadn't assissted her (my neighborhood is pretty small and quiet, but cars still cruise right through like they were on a highway)

Now, I also have a bit of "the bad guy" in me, but it's fully intended to smarten people up, or at least scare them into using their heads

Right... the one thing that truly shows how "small" some folks' perspective is.... I can't believe when someone almost kills me with their car and then gives me dirty looks... that makes me mad in ways that boggle the mind.... unfortunately, when somone's ignorance is so dangerous, I figure they've cancelled the social contract and I kick their car as hard as I can... it's an interesting thing to watch stupid insolence turn to wide eyed terror....
Anyways, I think that sort of illustrates a bit of my point; drivers think that the laws are placed so as to hinder them.... I think they exist to try and keep people from killing one another... just like chivalry, some folks would see it as a form of weakness, tohers still see it as a mark of a truly "decent" human being.... I DON'T "expect" people to be all phoney polite or anything, just decency, and I hope your gods are stronger than mine if you ever cross that line

So I guess I'm saying that chivalry is alive and well, in a modern, unisex way...
I like to think I'm honourable, since all you really have, in the end, is yourself, might as well make that as good as you can, and as representative of your beliefs as possible... for me, selfishness only exists where others see my right to exist as an option rather than a right.....

Okay, goin to post some Dengar jokes now

kool-aid killer
03-15-2004, 10:11 AM
I dont think chivalry is dead. Im no woman basher, but i think they expect a bit much when they want a man who knows when to be strong and when to be sensitive and is able to show the other side of him in a split second. We also get conflicting messages from society. To show your feelings signifies weakness. I hold a door open for anybody who is behind me, i dont expect anything in return with the exception that they do it for whoever is behind them. But as a man courts a female he will do just about anything to impress her and make himself stand out among all other men. Once the man has her he tends to take her for granted and forgets what all he did to hook her and the feelings he felt for her, and displayed, when he was courting her. Most assuredly a woman notices the change in attitude. There are plenty of good men and women out there, sometimes i think we are a bit too demanding. Reality is that everybody would love to date a attractive member of the opposite sex, for some it does happen other it doesnt. But what of the people who arent as beautiful? Whose to say that they dont have the personality that would make you feel so much better? If theres one thing i hate its picky single people.

JON9000
03-15-2004, 01:58 PM
I don't know any girl who does not want the fellas to open doors and especially to pick up the tab.

However, "chivalry" is often used as a guise for the more sinister "romantic paternalism," a belief that the law should provide extra protections to women because they are weaker and gentler than men.

What most women want is chivalry without the subtext of inferiority, and I think it is almost impossible to separate the two, because everybody draws the line differently. Your best bet is to figure out quickly what kind of woman you are dealing with and treat her accordingly.

What makes me angry is some of the women who wrote those articles who who think just because they were born without one, they are entitled to special treatment. Heck no. Maybe if they actually appreciated it and encouraged it, they would get it more often.

Instead you have these harpies whining passive aggressively about the death of chivalry because a friend of a friend had a bad experience. Ladies, if you don't want narcissistic men, quit falling head over heels fo rthe backstreet boys.

Bosskman
03-15-2004, 02:53 PM
Mabudon, I know exactly what you mean about kicking the car that almost hits you. I've done it a few times as I walk a lot to get to where I have to go and there are countless ignorant drivers around here. Those %^$# drivers have no idea how to react to that. The look on their face is priceless.

I believe in treating everybody good. I know a lot of people who are terribly rude to store clerks, waitresses, and other strangers they interact with. I think it a terrible evil in the world today. I've had some people treat me like absolute garbage but being rude to them back makes me no better than them (although that is often the case). I'm working on trying to be the better man because, in the end, it's just not worth it. The world has too many *$$*oles already without me adding to their numbers.

As far a chivalry towards women goes, yeah, it might contradict a lot of the PC jargon that gets spouted about everywhere these days but it's just something that's in me I guess. Of course it doesn't go for ANY woman in ANY situation but overall I'm pretty chivalrous.

mabudonicus
03-15-2004, 04:26 PM
Next time I do it I'll think of vintage Bossk, then, that silly grin :beard:


Bosskman made a good point- the way one deals with service-industry types (soon to be "skilled tradesmen") can reflect a good deal of decency or lack thereof... I feel so embarassed when someone gives someone mega-grief, turning on the intimidation big-time, taking full advantage of the situation... it really sucks to be like that...I'm all for the whole "customer rights" business, you have a right to get what you pay for, but trying to guilt someone into making up for things that aren't their fault is sad

Gender doesn't enter into it, IMO.. sorta like neo-chivalry to take into account some of the "transformed" definitions some like to put on things....

Being decent and genuinely wanting the best are all too rare qualities of being these days.... "chivalry" isn't dead, it's just not popular anymore

JediTricks
03-15-2004, 05:09 PM
*#$*%^

Did you know that there is a key combination that closes your active window? Argh, I typed out this long response and my fingers slipped and depressed some combination on the keyboard. BAM, the window was gone. So long message...

I'll have to get back to this one later. <stupid computer/user>
Ctrl + w


Living by the golden rule seems to be a good idea, but lately it seems as if no matter how nice you are, no matter what kind of good example you try to set with your actions, the world around you is crumbling further and further into rudeness and selfishness to the point where it sucks the life out of you.

I had the notion of chivalry drilled into me from an early age, but I find it distasteful now to treat women as inferiors just so they don't have to open a door or become offended at "salty language" or certain topics. I will open doors for anybody most of the time, but if a woman expects me to open a door for her for no other reason than I'm a guy, she better explain why she feels it's my duty.

kool-aid killer
03-15-2004, 08:24 PM
Im in a gender communication class and im sure the teacher would be able to add in some interesting points much better than im able to explain them. Such as women in higher positions in the workplace straddle a fine line: too mean and they are seen as overbearing, too kind and seen as ineffective. Whereas a man would be seen either as being focused or sympathetic. She did a study and the results (along with the results of other tests) indicate that women are treated differently in the workplace and viewed differently. Anybody ever notice that they will make eye contact with a woman and she will smile? From what the Dr. says its a common gesture used by most woman to display kindness, if they dont smile others will think shes in a bad mood or not sociable. But a woman has to cut eye contact quickly or else she runs the risk of the guy thinking shes interested in him. Hence you may walk past a woman and she smiles only to look away when you pass. Im sure she could add in a valuable point of view, i will ask her whether she believes chivalry is alive in class. My post doesnt have much to do with chivalry but the two genders are raised to believe that they have specific roles and whatnot.

Exhaust Port
03-15-2004, 10:31 PM
Here's my take on the Knightly Virtues which are the building blocks I guess for your classic Chivalry:

Prowess: More people seem to approach challanges as ego boosters rather than to improve one's own ability. "I'm not going work hard in my current job since it doesn't do much to impress others" rather than "I'm going to do my best because it benefits others and makes me feel good about my own abilities no matter how others percieve me." Why do anything if it doesn't bring you fame or fortune? This virtue is basically dead.

Justice: This is a pretty timeless virtue. I believe the struggle for society to achieve personal responsibility for your own actions or doing the right thing will always be there. As soon as I think we've started making great strides towards bettering the world we get something like the Enron issues and the sky starts falling again. This virtue has it's good and bad days.

Loyalty: This virtue is a 2 edged sword. If you lead a good life you will have good loyalties. If you don't, you'll find yourself with loyalties to thugs and scum. We see gangs that look up to punks who've killed and rapped and that isn't good. I also think that even the good people have unjustified loyalties. They become uneducated on basic ideals and form loyalties for which they'll fight to the end for. I think that is a result of the sheep herd mentality that some group exhibit. Why think for myself when Steve seems to know what he's talking about and he believes that UFO's are coming to take us to Planet X. This virtue is found in a most people but it is poorly guided in most.

Defense: Most people are good at sticking up for what they believe in. This virtue can be dangerous if you are bad at picking your loyalties. <see previous paragraph> This virtue is alive and well.

Courage: This is something that a lot of people lack. I'm not talking about being brave enough to walk through the dark woods but being brave enough to make the tough choices in life and not back down when the going gets tough. It seems that over the years that more and more people are taking the easy way rather than the harder/right way. I saw it plenty of times as an instructor. Student would turn around and walk away when a difficult challange arose. I'm not optimistic that this virtue will be prevailant in the future.

Faith: Personal faith really seems to be taking off. Perhaps it's just the tough times that we've all had over the last few years or maybe it's just something that has been evolving over the years. Either way, faith seems to be on the rise. This virtue is still strong in society.

Humility: This virtue is just about dead. Everyone wants to be recognized for something. It's like kindergarden when everyone walks away as a winner with a ribbon in hand. We're seeing with all this reality TV where even Plain Jane can get her moment in the limelight. For doing what? Living in a house with strangers for 4 months or eating bugs and dirt? Yup, we have no shame. Humility is DOA.

Largesse: basically this is your desire to share with others within your means. This makes a popular appearance a few times a year with special events and holidays. Everyone gets in the spirit and we all feel good about ourselves. The next day we are back to normal ignoring the guy standing next to us choking on a peanut. Tradition keeps this virtue alive but it feels pretty empty a lot of times. Largesse won't ever go away but it's pretty dead when it comes to chivalry in the common man/woman.

Nobility: This results from ones strive to meet the above virtues. Even if you fail you're enlightened for attempting to improve yourself and your surroundings. I think we see moments of this from time to time but not often enough in my eyes. Some play the part but it seems to be more of a show than a true stature.

Franchise: Don't do things for personal gain but because they are right is the definition. In our money driven world? Even though most wouldn't achieve personal gain through illegal actions we would be stupid to assume that striving for personal gain would keep the world moving. We all know that at the end of the day the more personal gain the better the next day will be. No one would want to live their last days with nothing knowing that if they pushed for it they would have had benefited from such "personal gain" actions. No matter how socially benefitial our jobs how many of us would still show up to work if we didn't need the money or if they didn't pay us enough for our services? Not me. We need the police but they are there because they need the money (even if they like their line of work). Franchise is dead.


Well if those lead us to Chivalry then I'd have to say that it might not be completely dead but Chivalry is definately struggling. Just as we see an improvement in one virtue, others will be lost. The world is too big and we deal with too much on any given day. I have my small inner circle that I protect and within that environment I try to show what might be called modern chivarly. Outside of that circle though, I don't have time to worry about every other person I meet and vise versa. I do what I can not to be a pain in anyones side but I'm sure I step on toes from time to time. Within society as a whole I see Chivalry as being lost.

stillakid
03-15-2004, 10:51 PM
In days of olde, (or even just a mere century hence) it may have been easier to ascertain which females would be open to chivalrous acts by kind hearted men. But in today's modern society, I think it would be fair to suggest that
1.) we've got a third of women who want to be "treated like a lady,"

2.) another third who scoff at the notion and want to make their way through the world independently,

3.) and the last third who want to play the game independently but who also want the benefits of having a man fawn all over them. It's that last group which causes all the problems as they would just as soon head to an office to compete for a job with a man but expect that that same man hold the door open for her so she can enter first.

Is it any wonder why some men just say "F it" and let doors slam in a woman's face? Can you blame them? :confused:

Kidhuman
03-15-2004, 11:35 PM
3.) and the last third who want to play the game independently but who also want the benefits of having a man fawn all over them. It's that last group which causes all the problems as they would just as soon head to an office to compete for a job with a man but expect that that same man hold the door open for her so she can enter first.

Is it any wonder why some men just say "F it" and let doors slam in a woman's face? Can you blame them? :confused:

In that case of the last third, I say who cares. I know as a person, that I would do the right thing and sleep better at night. Life is a race nowadays, but like any race, pacing yourself gets you further than the all out sprint to the top.

arctangent
03-16-2004, 05:05 AM
i was brough up with the notion of do unto others as you would have others do unto you. i generally try and stick with that and much of the time it works. i have never had to endure a feminist outburst upon opening a door for a woman.

i do find one thing very annoying though. i am 6' 2" tall, weigh 17 stone, have long hair and a beard, wear jeans and a leather bikers jacket and usually if i help someone (opening doors, pushchairs up/down stairs, getting something off a high shelf in a shop, old ladies across roads, etc, etc) they look at me as if i am about to mug them rather than help them and they look like they don't really believe that i have just helped them and been polite whilst doing it too. i wish so many people wouldn't judge books by their cover.

Exhaust Port
03-16-2004, 10:11 AM
Even those with more user friendly exteriors are getting the cold shoulder quite a bit. Paranoia levels are on the rise it seems which means that even the Good Samaratins are getting pushed away. I can't really blame them though. It seems that there are dangers around every corner at times that makes it smart to stay away from even the most friendly looking folks.

arctangent
03-16-2004, 10:27 AM
i guess people don't want to invite trouble on themselves. there was an incident reported in our national papers the other day about a 14 year old schoolboy who was suspended for a week from his school for NOT trying to break a playground fight up that he was witness to. his parents, who have brought him up not to get involved in any trouble like that, are not pleased, to say the least. and if he had tried to break the fight up, he probably would have got in trouble for being involved!

mabudonicus
03-16-2004, 01:06 PM
Gotta agree with arctangent, I see the same problem, I fit your description sans leathers and sometimes :beard: and I get somepretty funny looks; it just shows how judgemental folks are, and it is no doubt founded on a deformed (by the media) sense of self preservation, I'd imagine, it's as if the notion of altruism is so unbelievable to many folks that they see nothing but people looking to gain from their losses... so sad, really, but unfortunately understandable

stillakid
03-16-2004, 01:22 PM
it just shows how judgemental folks are, and it is no doubt founded on a deformed (by the media) sense of self preservation,


...which just contributes to this "ME" society wherein not only do people just decide to fend for themselves but also determine that others should too. Not that this is an entirely bad thing, but we all need a little help now and then. I think the problem may stem from a history of some individuals who learned that they could get through life "mooching" off others. This includes the standard Welfare slobs as well as wallet-chasing women.

As far as the other topic of exterior impressions goes, I think it's safe to say that people have those opinions because traditionally, people who looked or acted a certain way behaved in a specific manner. The whole leather, beard, biker look thing got it's "bad" name undoubtedly from the scruffy, anti-establishment, and sometimes outlaw behavior of the Hell's Angels and other rufian groups. Some "black" people get a bad wrap because some black people misbehave, kill, maim, rob, cause trouble, etc. It's just the classic case of a few morons ruining an image for everyone else. But "society" places all sorts of limitations on people. Going outside those boundries only invites a label being placed on you. For instance, a straight white heterosexual male will almost always be instantly labeled as homosexual if he, say, wore a thong bathing suit to the beach. Why? Same problem as the big burly leather biker. He's not necessarily a bad guy, but because other people in some other group behave in a certain "different" way, you get lumped into that heap. Instant judgment. First impressions. Fair? No. The reality? Yes. Is there anything anyone can do about it? Um, in the short term, no not really. Going outside the "acceptable norm" is just a recipe for being labeled on the personal level. That's just the way it is.

Bosskman
03-16-2004, 03:28 PM
I'd have to agree about the paranoia thing. I think that is what keeps me from helping people the most. It's not that I don't care, but that I'm afraid of being taken advantage of by someone. For example, I'm afraid to get involved with scouts/cubs/cadets/ etc because I don't want to be labeled as a pedophile or worse. I often see hitchhikers on the highway and don't pick them up because I'm afraid of being robbed or murdered. I don't even like driving certain people anywhere for fear that they would sue me if I got into an accident. There are so many people out there who just want to take all they can from others, and they don't care how they go about doing it.
Back to the chivalry thing though, here's something that happened to me a few minutes ago at the grocery store: There's this girl at school who's mighty fine looking, sometimes, when I've talked with her before, she's been really nice, but other times she's got this look on her face, or even just an aura about her, that tells me not to talk to her because she's angry or something. I don't know her that well and am not trying to pick her up or anything. (I'm WAY too bashfull when it comes to stuff like that, and pretty shy in general) Now today I was in the line at the grocery store and happened to notice after about a minute of glancing at the scandal sheets that this girl was standing in front of me. I got the feeling that she noticed me there first, and more importantly that I hadn't acknowledged her presence in any way (since I had'nt seen her till that moment). What followed were two or three of what seemed to be the longest minutes of my life. The chivalrous part of me wanted for me to say something like: "Hey (insert girl's name) II'm sorry, almost didn't see you there" but the paranoid part was saying "don't say anything you fool, she's just gonna give you a dirty look or ignore you or worse". The internal debate raged on until SHE finally started talking to me about school related stuff. Thank God that awkward moment was at an end. I still feel like a jerk for not talking to her first. I can't really explain why.

Kidhuman
03-16-2004, 03:56 PM
Maybe she likes ya and thats why she wouldnt speak to you for a few minutes. :D

Chivalry was your friend right there. There is nothing wrong with just hello. The worse that could happen is she doesnt answer you and the silence continues, but inside you know you werere polite and tried to strike up the convo.

stillakid
03-16-2004, 05:18 PM
(I'm WAY too bashfull when it comes to stuff like that, and pretty shy in general) Now today I was in the line at the grocery store and happened to notice after about a minute of glancing at the scandal sheets that this girl was standing in front of me. I got the feeling that she noticed me there first, and more importantly that I hadn't acknowledged her presence in any way (since I had'nt seen her till that moment). What followed were two or three of what seemed to be the longest minutes of my life. The chivalrous part of me wanted for me to say something like: "Hey (insert girl's name) II'm sorry, almost didn't see you there" but the paranoid part was saying "don't say anything you fool, she's just gonna give you a dirty look or ignore you or worse". The internal debate raged on until SHE finally started talking to me about school related stuff. Thank God that awkward moment was at an end. I still feel like a jerk for not talking to her first. I can't really explain why.

I don't know you at all, but take it from me, I was that way when I was in school. I can't tell you how many opportunities I missed out on (to date hot chicks) purely because I was either A) to shy to talk to them, or B) didn't think I stood a chance (most likely the real reason guy's don't talk to hot babes). Just a word of advice for what it's worth: cut it out. Now. Girls of all ages are attracted to confidence. 9 times out of 10 a confident guy winds up being the rich successful guy so that's why it seems like only that type of man gets the best women. But I'd wager to say that it's the confidence that is the lure. Being "aggressive" by talking to her first (your suggested line was great! Why didn't you use it?) or opening a door, or being decisive about your plans for the evening go a long long way to this goal of attracting the partners you want to have by your side. "Aggressive" doesn't mean being a knuckle-head and browbeating your decisions into her or anything physical. It just means that you should be confident and secure in your own decisions and choices. Dare I say that chivalry will follow naturally and she will magically respond in kind. (Unless you're butt-ugly...j/k ;) .... I hope :sur: )

bobafrett
03-16-2004, 07:05 PM
I don't know you at all, but take it from me, I was that way when I was in school. I can't tell you how many opportunities I missed out on (to date hot chicks) purely because I was either A) to shy to talk to them, or B) didn't think I stood a chance (most likely the real reason guy's don't talk to hot babes). Just a word of advice for what it's worth: cut it out.

I know that feeling all to well. I had a very cute next door neighbor who I really liked. I would get on my stationary bike about a half hour before she would get home, She had to walk past my apartment window to get to her front door. Not only did I get the benifit of being able to see her walk by, she could see into my apartment, and would pop in on occasion and compliment me on my dedication to my workout. One day she calls me up, and invites me over to see her apartment. I get to her door, and she is standing there in just a button down shirt and her underwear. I froze in her doorway, she invited me in, but I couldn't move. I ended up making some lame excuse and walked (dragging my right leg, because I couldn't get it to bend at the knee) away. This same girl worked at a Hospital in Chicago. One morning as she was trying to get her Saturn started by remote, I could here the engine not turning, and eventually not even attempting to turnover. I went to her door, and offered to give her a ride to work. Keep in mind now, it was 20 to 30 degrees below zero out. I gave her a ride to work, but I don't remember if that was before or after the earlier incident. Well, I'm probably getting off the subject, but I just thought about all the oppurtunity's I had to meet up with and possibly date women, but I would just get all nervous, and end up looking like a goof.

stillakid
03-16-2004, 09:24 PM
One day she calls me up, and invites me over to see her apartment. I get to her door, and she is standing there in just a button down shirt and her underwear.


Dear Penthouse, you're never going to believe this...



:D


I feel for you. No really. Life's not fair sometimes.

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
03-16-2004, 09:53 PM
Chivalry, in modern terms, while not entirely dead, is a dying art form. It seems that respect is something that is sorely missing from our younger generations.

The "me" generation has certainly contributed to this lack of chivalry. The sense of brotherhood, community, and equality that swept our world in the 60's, died a decade later. That is funny to say, because our culture is more tolerant than ever before, and while equality among the races/genders will never happen in my opinion, it is as close as it has ever gotten. Now people are too caught up fending for their ownselves, trying to attain a peace that can be brought through a collection of wealth and material stuff (like Star Wars toys! :crazed: )

As someone who works with young children, I see things that occur nowadays that would shake your head. Kids can be mean little people. Today they are growing up way too fast, finding out things that they should never know. It's hard not to get caught up in indecent things, because these things have permeated nearly every facet of society. At those ages they don't know any better about certain rights or wrongs. Not good for the future of America.

Perhaps I am being too cynical, as I am sure every generation thinks that of the succeeding one. It's just that children aren't taught by their parents enough of respect. A lot of them have chips on their shoulder, that they should normally outgrow, but because of this "me" culture, a lot of that stays with them.

Personally, I was taught to open doors for everyone, especially women. Being a good samaritan has certain intrisnic benefits. It also benefits society as a whole if everyone was on the same page. If we followed these Confusican like principles, we wouldn't have the amount of negative attitudes, neglect or cutthroatness that we see today.

stillakid
03-17-2004, 12:09 AM
Personally, I was taught to open doors for everyone, especially women.

It's that "especially" part that is the question. Why is there a need for women to have "special" treatment, particularly in this day and age?

Bosskman
03-17-2004, 06:07 AM
Stilla, I hear you completely and I"m WAY better than I used to be. I'm actually pretty "successful" in every part of my life but THAT one. (I'm not filthy rich or anything like that, but there are a lot of people way worse off than me who would still call themselves "successful") I actually get a lot of compliments from women about my appearance and abilities, and lately I've been pulled onto the dance floor by REALLY attractive women on the increasingly rare occasions when I go to bars. I guess after all those years of being the fat kid at school with zits who still collected toys long after everyone else I'm still suspicious of people's motives, women in particular. You wouln't believe the stuff you'd get picked on and beaten up for at my junior high school. I wasn't at the bottom, actually somewhere in the middle of the popularity ladder, until grade 8 when the 5 biggest "losers" all transfered to english schools and then I was one of the lucky ones who got to take their place. I'm 27 now, weigh half what I did in junior high (I can still fit into my scout shirt), lost the acne, and most people I know think my collection is cool (if not a little eccentric) but part of me still feels like I'm still that kid. My friends, both male and female, tell me all the time that I'd have no problem getting the girl I want, but it seems so hard, almost insurmountable. I've worked myself into a rut and it's hard to get out.

Enogh about that though, I don't think chivalry is dead, just taking a back seat to the pervaisive "me" culture that is so prevalent right now. There are a lot of people who don't see things thaty way though so, in a generation or so, things will probably change, becauser I guarantee the world will, for better or worse. If there's one thing my history degree has taught me it's that there is always a generational backlash at what was has come before. The Victorian notion of "progress" is still engained in our collective consciousness here in north america because, on the surface it still seems to hold true, but reality is slowly but surely catching up. I think it's more like back and forth. Stuff and ideas we consider "new", "modern", and "progressive" aren't really so at all. Most of the political speals we here on TV have no basis in history at all, but in manipulation tactics to get people all rilled up. Most north americans, for example, it as a historical fact that until recent years all women and black men were the underdogs and that stuff like women in politics, homosexuality, multiculturalism, education, sports, etc., are recent phenomena. The greeks and romans, for example, lived in a society that was VERY similar to ours. Sure there are differences in technology and terminology, but it's all essentially the same. I guess the old cliche "history repeats itself" is more true than people think. Something BIG is gonna happen in this part of the world in the next 50 years or so, so big I don't think any of us will recognize the place if we still walk the earth. It's almost like we're like the hobbits in the shire who have fenced ourselves into this comfortable, sinisterly comfortable that is, way of living. Anyone who has READ the Lord of the Rings knows full well how the shire pays for that "stupidity" as Gandalf puts it. Anyways, I think chivalry will wake from its sleep in a generation or so, it will be a bit different maybe but who knows?

Anyway I gotta get to school.

kool-aid killer
03-17-2004, 09:57 AM
there was an incident reported in our national papers the other day about a 14 year old schoolboy who was suspended for a week from his school for NOT trying to break a playground fight up that he was witness to. his parents, who have brought him up not to get involved in any trouble like that, are not pleased, to say the least. and if he had tried to break the fight up, he probably would have got in trouble for being involved!

A couple of weeks ago a group of students from a school (one of the more "prestigious" you could say) formed outside a house just to watch two kids beat up another who they thought had told on somebody. Not only was it watched by many, it was also videotaped. A "friend" of the kid who was jumped led the mob to his house. Needless to say many people seemed outraged that so many people would do nothing while watching a kid get hammered in front of them.

I think Bosskman is right when he says we are fenced in. We dont realize how good we have it here. Change scares people. From the changing makeup of this country, the jobs that are disappearing, and the new threats. Why else do you think September 11th had such a massive impact on us? Aside from the tragic loss of so many people, we all seemed to think that terrorism was something that mainly occured in third world countries with the occasion small thing in the States. Now we know that it can happen in our own backyard. I wonder what the following years hold for us and if i really want to know.

arctangent
03-17-2004, 10:24 AM
you can, in many ways, understand a policy of non-interference in cases like this. it is bad that people watch "playground" fights like this but you can understand why people won't get involved. transfer the scenario to a nightclub and a fight breaks out. do you get involved and try to stop it, not knowing if the people fighting might stick a beer glass in your face or might be carrying knives. the police turn up and because you are caught in the middle of it you get hauled off and charged. its easier and often safer to not get involved. that is why that particular schoolboys parents have brought him up not to get involved and to wait for the 'proper authorities', ie teachers, police, to arrive and sort it out.

i think this is a little off topic and i don't want to get political or controversial but i wanted to comment on kool-aid killer's posting. people in the uk lived with terrorism for many years and many of us couldn't understand why some americans wanted to help the terrorists (or freedom fighters as they were referred to). people don't understand until it happens in your own back yard. the tragic events september 11th opened up a lot of people's eyes to the effects of terrorism and being fenced in and kept away from the rest of the world.

stillakid
03-17-2004, 11:06 AM
...many of us couldn't understand why some americans wanted to help the terrorists (or freedom fighters as they were referred to). people don't understand until it happens in your own back yard. the tragic events september 11th opened up a lot of people's eyes to the effects of terrorism and being fenced in and kept away from the rest of the world.


So is this a modern, more global, form of chivalry? Helping those who need it?

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
03-17-2004, 08:39 PM
It's that "especially" part that is the question. Why is there a need for women to have "special" treatment, particularly in this day and age?

There is little logic in that reasoning, it's just more custom than anything. It's just the proper way to do so, Confuscian you might say.

I remember arguing about the Titanic life-boats stories in high school. Why women and children first? Especially in terms of importance during that era, some say, men would have won hands down and should have been on the lifeboards first. It's just that it's the gentlemenly thing to do, whatever the lack of logic or reasoning there is.

I can see the equality argument that you bring up, especially considering the strides we've made as a country in the last couple of decades. I don't see any harm in engaging in these chilvaric practices. As I said in my argument before, if we engrained these to our children and the importance of politeness and respect, the world would be a much better place to live in. Societal decay can be traced to the selfishness of our "me" generation and the breakdown of a general respect for living things.

arctangent
03-18-2004, 03:49 AM
So is this a modern, more global, form of chivalry? Helping those who need it?

i was making an observation on kool-aid killers comments, not trying to make a point about chivalry, as i am sure you are fully aware. as for a modern, more global form of chivalry the powers in the west are certainly helping those who the powers in the west decide need it.

stillakid
03-18-2004, 08:32 AM
i was making an observation on kool-aid killers comments, not trying to make a point about chivalry, as i am sure you are fully aware. as for a modern, more global form of chivalry the powers in the west are certainly helping those who the powers in the west decide need it.


Yes, but isn't that the caveat of chivalry? Is it an arbitrary decision deciding who needs help and who doesn't? On the personal level, for some reason it was decided, quite arbitrarily that females were helpless or something so the "gentlemenly" thing to do was to "step up and be a man." Who decided that nonsense and why? To what end? And is it still a relevant concept today as former "minorities" or "weaker" members of society are given the tools to allow them to be "equal"?

arctangent
03-18-2004, 08:56 AM
Yes, but isn't that the caveat of chivalry? Is it an arbitrary decision deciding who needs help and who doesn't? On the personal level, for some reason it was decided, quite arbitrarily that females were helpless or something so the "gentlemenly" thing to do was to "step up and be a man." Who decided that nonsense and why? To what end? And is it still a relevant concept today as former "minorities" or "weaker" members of society are given the tools to allow them to be "equal"?

i do see your point, stilla. you can't really make arbitary decisions about who needs help and who doesn't. each situation should be decided on its own merits - i don't see how you can have a 'rulebook' for being chivalrous. again, i just think back to my dad teaching me that i should try to be nice, polite and helpful to everyone.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
03-18-2004, 10:21 AM
I thought chivalry was dead...and then it got up and tried to eat me, so I had to shoot it in the head with a shotgun! :crazed:

I really don't think chivalry is dead, it's just VERY underappreciated. I'm the stereotypical "nice guy" who will bend over backwards for all the ladies he dates as well as for his friends and very few times has it gone noticed. I just think in this day and age of guys being complete schmucks and somehow ending up with great girls, it goes completely un appreciated. I'll admit, on more than one occasion, i've muttered, "That's it, i'm going to quit being such a nice guy and turn into a complete d***, as it seemed to work for him and he got a great girl!!" However, my character usually gets the best of me and I continue to be chivalrous in my actions and ways. Maybe one day it shall be appreciated! :D

Bosskman
03-18-2004, 11:20 AM
It's funny that Titanic thing was brought up because I think it illutrates an earlier point that has been brought up by a few of us before: many women nowadays want it BOTH ways. A lot of those feminazis would bring up stuff about how women at the time wre treated like crap and then something like that throws a monkey wrench into their arguments. The truth, however, is this: the RICH women were allowed on the lifeboats, the rest of the women on board in steerage perished. All the womens lib women of the time were RICH women who treated the poor women like garbage, for the mostpart. Up here in Canada, our ministry of propaganda, the CBC, always has these stupid historially misrepresentful clips on TV about "the first woman senator", the"first woman MP", the "first votes for women", (among other things) that would have the viewer believe that, until that piont in time, all women everywhere were slaves to all the men everywhere, and that the men were all equal among themselves. This is simply untrue, in many parts of north america, the emancipation of men came only 30-50 years before that of all women. I think this battle of the sexes crap of our day, grounded in such historical inaccuracies, is one of the bigest problems we have. This man vs. woman thing is something that goes completely against the chivalry that both men and women have benefited from in the past. DEMOCRACY IS ALL A MONEY GRAB PEOPLE!! Nothing more. Alright, enough politics or we'll get closed down.

silentsteel70
03-18-2004, 11:58 AM
I Don't think chivalry is dead, let's go to the defination for chivalry:

" The medieval system of knighthood, Qualities, such as bravery, honor, and gallantry towards women, idealized by knighthood. A gallant or courteous act."

Everyone in one way or another have shown some type of chivalry at sometime. In these modern times chivalry is more wide spread, Not just toward women, I consider chivalry as helping anyone who needs it, even if they don't ask for help, whether it is a male, female, or whatever. To show bravery to anyone who threatens what you believe in, To show honor to people who doesn't know what respect is, To be gallant, and standup for others who can't defend themselves.

Like a kid who stands up to a bully that is picking on someone that is smaller than he is, even if they don't like the kid being bullied, Like helping an elderly couple change a tire on the side of the highway, Helping someone with there shopping bags in the pouring rain. These are all chivalrous things, we just call them good manners.

So to me, Chivalry is not dead, it showing respect to your fellow man disregarding race or religion.

JON9000
03-19-2004, 12:29 PM
here's a scary wrinkle, I'll bet the Taliban thought its treatment of women under its version of sharia law was the highest expression of chivalry. By forcing women to take up the burqua and stay in the home, men were protecting the more fragile sex, and preserving their virtue at any cost. Even if it meant shooting a few of them in the head for showing a little skin.

Bosskman
03-19-2004, 01:15 PM
As much as I'd like to talk about that stuff I don't think we're allowed.

stillakid
03-19-2004, 09:26 PM
here's a scary wrinkle, I'll bet the Taliban thought its treatment of women under its version of sharia law was the highest expression of chivalry. By forcing women to take up the burqua and stay in the home, men were protecting the more fragile sex, and preserving their virtue at any cost. Even if it meant shooting a few of them in the head for showing a little skin.


That's an interesting angle on this topic. As summer hits us around these parts and the clothes come off, the thought does come to mind that we (men) are being "tortured" by beautiful female bodies (not that I'm complaining :p ) .