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chrisc
03-18-2004, 06:01 PM
I was watching Episode I last night and got to wondering did palpatine influence the queen to go for the no confidence vote with the force or was it his skill at persuasion with simple words? Also did he use the force to get her to go back to Naboo? I was curious and thought some of you guys from Star Wars university might know. :beard:

Beast
03-18-2004, 06:15 PM
I don't think he used the force to manipulate here. That would have tipped off the Jedi's if he had. They would have likely felt a disturbance in the force. I think he's just a really really slick, charming, and manipulative individual. He's the puppet master, pulling the strings with his slick words. Like I said before, we hear him brag about his manipulative ways in ROTJ. Now we see them in action.

As for going back to Naboo, I believe that he didn't want that to happen actually. At least from my point of view. His original plan was for her to sign the treaty, giving control of Naboo to the Neimodians. Which Palpatine would have used as proof that the Senate wasn't taking care of matters properly. When she escaped, he had to alter things. Calling for a vote of no confidence in Valorum allowed him to bypass the need for Naboo to be seized.

Now he was elected Chancellor, and could just screw over the Neimodians. Because he got his power. He no longer needed them. But when Queen Amidala decides to go back, she was putting herself back in peril. The Neimodians could have easily grabbed her, and made her sign the treaty. Which would have made Palpatine have to deal with getting rid of that problem again.

You'll notice, especially more so in Episode II that the Sith are working both sides of the coin against each other. Dooku's manipulating the Sepratists to instigate a war. And Palpatine is being allowed to stay longer in his position, because he's the best man for the job. And do to the increased fighting, Palpatine was able to make a play for power and seize a mysterious army under his control. Now he just needs to wipe out the Sepratists and Jedi, and the circle of his plan is complete. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Kidhuman
03-18-2004, 08:52 PM
That about sums it up JJB

Darth Jax
03-18-2004, 10:38 PM
we've seen scheming done by the major evil-doers in the films so far, and most have totally backfired. tarkin/vader letting the falcon go with a homing device to locate and destroy rebel base, what happens the rebels blow up the death star killing tarkin (vader survives because he conveniently enough is in his tie fighter). palpy allows the rebels to learn the location of the DS2 and gives them a password to access the forest moon, again the rebels triumph and luke rejects his seduction to the dark side. and of course the example above of palpy and the naboo.

i'm just waiting for ep 3 and the hopes that all of palpy's plans and schemes are outlined, because right now it seems more pure dumb luck on his part that he's getting what he wants when his original plans don't go as charted.

stillakid
03-19-2004, 01:36 AM
I was watching Episode I last night and got to wondering did palpatine influence the queen to go for the no confidence vote with the force or was it his skill at persuasion with simple words? Also did he use the force to get her to go back to Naboo? I was curious and thought some of you guys from Star Wars university might know. :beard:


In some post long ago, I put forth the idea that Palpatine isn't a Force User at all, at least in his early career. There are two gigantic proofs for this.

The first is, well, he doesn't have to. As you suggest, he is politically savvy enough to influence events with pure manipulation. He naturally finds the weaknesses of people and situations and moves the pawns around without them being aware of it. In fact, if he was using the Force to accomplish any of this cocamammie plan we see in AOTC, then it would actually work the way he designed it. Instead, events unfold in his favor through pure happenstance and luck. From what we know of the actual events he is trying make happen, it's clear from the film that they actually don't and other things happen which he didn't influence which just circumstantially work out in the end somehow. It's all pretty ridiculous if you take the time to understand the plot as it is and ignore the pretty pictures for a moment.

The second reason I don't think Palpatine can be a Force User in the Prequels is that he is never "felt" by any other Jedi. We saw that Old Ben was on Vader's radar when he wasn't doing anything but hiding in a smuggling compartment. Obi "felt" Vader. Luke "felt" Vader in ROTJ when on the Shuttle. Vader "felt" Luke while on the Star Destroyer. etc etc etc. But for all the plotting that Palps supposedly does in the Prequels, the only "Sith" that the Jedi "feel" is Maul. I think that Palps may have learned how to teach the Force stuff enough to train an apprentice who could do the dirty work for him when called for. That way, he himself wouldn't be suspected of wrongdoing until it was too late. That scenario is EXACTLY what we are seeing played out now. Palpatine is merely politically manipulating people and hasn't yet (had to) call his Midichlorians ( :rolleyes: ) into duty. He'll do that later on (maybe in Episode III, maybe not). But with pitbulls like Maul, Dooku, and Vader running around with lightsabers, Palps never really has to use the Force himself.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
03-19-2004, 01:40 AM
The second reason I don't think Palpatine can be a Force User in the Prequels is that he is never "felt" by any other Jedi.

"The Dark side clouds everything"- Yoda

I don't think the Jedi could pick him up even if he used some force powers as it's stated by Mace Windu that their ability to use the force has diminished, so had Palpatine actually used the force, the Jedi might not have seen/felt his prescence at all. Granted, we don't find this info out until AOTC, but i think it's safe to assume that during the events of TPM, their ability was still somewhat diminished/tarnished.

I still agree that he didn't use any force powers, he's just really good at manipulating people and being a clever old man. :D

Kidhuman
03-19-2004, 01:44 AM
Or maybe Palpy isnt the Emperor. Maybe he has a brother that he is in business with. Doubtful, but you never know with G. Lu

Beast
03-19-2004, 01:59 AM
There's also some evidence that the Jedi has to be familar with the Force User to sense them. Qui-Gon didn't originally detect Maul on Tatooine. And Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan both don't detect him on Naboo. Vader sensed Obi-Wan on the Death Star in ANH. But Vader also knew Obi-Wan. And knew his particular pattern in the force. But didn't detect Leia or Luke as being strong in the force. He senses Luke in ESB, but Leia again goes undetected. And Palpatine doesn't detect Luke Skywalker landing on Endor. But Vader picks him up the moment he comes into range. There's enough evidence there for me to assume that it takes having some familiarity with the Jedi/Sith to be able to decern their specific presence in the force. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
03-19-2004, 12:22 PM
There's also some evidence that the Jedi has to be familar with the Force User to sense them. Qui-Gon didn't originally detect Maul on Tatooine. And Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan both don't detect him on Naboo. Vader sensed Obi-Wan on the Death Star in ANH. But Vader also knew Obi-Wan. And knew his particular pattern in the force. But didn't detect Leia or Luke as being strong in the force. He senses Luke in ESB, but Leia again goes undetected. And Palpatine doesn't detect Luke Skywalker landing on Endor. But Vader picks him up the moment he comes into range. There's enough evidence there for me to assume that it takes having some familiarity with the Jedi/Sith to be able to decern their specific presence in the force. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Perhaps and I'm sure that George himself would use that "clouds everything" excuse to rationalize it all out. I'm fairly certain that he has no master plan in place to justify whether anyone "senses" anyone else or not. Those decisions are purely plot driven. When GL needs someone to be sensed, then it happens. There are no rules.

That being said, to continue this fan-boy game of second-guessing the story ( :D ) Obi Wan did "sense" something at the very start of TPM. Qui Gon would have been diced to pieces if he didn't "sense" Maul's approach. Then again it could have been the sound of Maul's speeder engine. :D

Leia was never sensed, because like Palpatine, she never used the Force. The earliest we know of Palps being aware of Luke was during ESB, but then again, his communique didn't indicate that he "felt" the boy. He could just as easily have found out about him via intelligence reports after Luke blew up the Death Star. We know that Vader can "sense" Force users and displays that with Old Ben. Vader doesn't sense Luke until after Luke starts using the Force or else he would have sensed him while hovering over Tatooine.

From what we are told about the Force, it is an energy field (dark energy?) that is everywhere. Instead of swimming around in water, we and everything exists in this ocean of energy. These Jedi and Sith guys and gals learned how to tap into this ocean. So just like dropping a rock into the pond produces ripples, so too does Force use. The bigger the rock, the bigger the waves and the farther they go. The bigger the "Force use," the more powerful the waves. Lifting a small stone will produce a "disturbance" in the Force but since it is relatively small, only nearby Force users will be able to "sense" it. For instance, while Old Ben was hiding in the Falcon, he probably inadvertantly was giving off some ripples which Vader only picked up when next to the ship. The same happened with Luke in ROTJ. Besides, Vader didn't know Luke until ESB, yet he "sensed" him during the trench run in ANH. Why? Because Luke was using the Force at that moment. But Vader didn't sense the boy at any other time he was running amok on the Death Star.

So therefore is absolutely no evidence to support the idea that a Force user has to know the other Force user in order to sense them, yet there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Force users sense other Force users when they are tapping into the energy field.

Kidhuman
03-19-2004, 12:31 PM
yet he "sensed" him during the trench run in ANH. Why? Because Luke was using the Force at that moment. But Vader didn't sense the boy at any other time he was running amok on the Death Star.

Vader might have sensed Luke on The Death Star, but passed it off as Obi Wan. As far as he knew, He and Obi-Wan were the only two Jedi/Sith left. But like you said, it is an observation left up to how you want to percieve it accordingly with the movie. I am not saying he did or he didn't, but it is possible.

stillakid
03-19-2004, 12:36 PM
Vader might have sensed Luke on The Death Star, but passed it off as Obi Wan. As far as he knew, He and Obi-Wan were the only two Jedi/Sith left. But like you said, it is an observation left up to how you want to percieve it accordingly with the movie. I am not saying he did or he didn't, but it is possible.


I agree with everything you're saying. The problem is that we can "nitpick" ;) every individual instance to death, but when you examine the films in total, the grand picture illustrates that this "knowing" concept falls apart fairly quickly while the other option that I suggest above holds up, if not entirely, stronger than the other. Seeing the forest for the trees is vital to seeing the reasons why I bag on the Prequels the way I (and others!) do. The devil is in the details.

JediTricks
03-20-2004, 04:57 PM
JJB, you stole my argument. :D

Beast
03-20-2004, 05:30 PM
I've used it before. We just have a similar point of view on this one. Which is nice for the two of us to finally agree about something. Check hell, did it freeze over yet? ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

chrisc
03-22-2004, 06:22 PM
well that does explain it alot thanks guys