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Turambar
05-08-2004, 01:47 AM
Like anyone else who gives thought to the prequel trilogy, I am still trying to figure out how yoda made it all the way to kamino, picked up a million-man strong army, then jetted the entire fleet to geonosis in the same amount of time it took the jedi to make the trek.
Another thing has been troubling my sleep, though. Alright, I'll buy the kaminoans cranking out millions of human clones from their single water city & training them with the latest programs and all. But then you get into feeding, armoring, and arming all these soldiers for a simple city that deals clones. It doesn't seem like anything a cloner could really do with the means given.
However, to fit the needs of a poorly written E2, the clones are all given the state of the art equipment, and given 1st class service. Okay, so maybe that is plausible.
But, where did all of the landing craft, the walkers, the large walkers with big guns come from -- on top of all the other requirements needed to create this great army on a kamino city? That would take mucho resources, and none of these were evidenced from Obi-Wan's trip to Kamino.
So where were all of the military vehicles? Besides that, how did all of the multitudes of vehicles make the impossible trip to geonosis? Apparently the kaminoans had built a fleet of protoype star destroyers, too! How in the world they could pull all that off is beyond me, but even just going by the movie, the clones, armor, weapons, and training were all they were responsible for. The vast amounts of attack vehicles and star destroyers were apparently fabricated from thin air to fit the needs of the poorly written story! From where else could these enormous objects arise?
Furthermore, if we are to believe that kamino created the army, the armor, the weapons, the room & board, the landing vehicles, the walkers, and the star destroyers, . . . then why didn't they just take over the entire galaxy? No one could oppose such a force. Surely someone in the kamino clone business would realise that if they could manufacture all of these goods out of thin air, then conquering the galaxy would be no problemo. If things played out logically, E4-6 should be dealing with a kaminoan empire instead of what we got. But, then again, the kaminoans were only cartoons. What do they know, after all.

2-1B
05-08-2004, 03:55 AM
I never assumed that the Kaminoans were responsible for fabricating the military ordnance used by the clones.

What some might see as a poorly written part of the story, I see as a general intellectual laziness on the subject. I have no idea how one could assume that since the Kaminoans engineered the clones, they must have built all of the machines to go with it. I'm quite sure that there was a good amount of outsourcing involved with this project.

Of course, Kamino could not have single handedly taken over the galaxy but we can see what happens when a select group gains control over ALL of the big hitters (such as cloners, machinists, bankrollers, etc.): that's how the Empire was able to take shape.

The part about Yoda and the clones hopping so quickly across the galaxy definitely does not seem possible. I guess GL decided to sacrifice logical travel times in favor of a faster paced climax and the convenience of moving the film along ?

Pendo
05-08-2004, 09:26 AM
Maybe they made one of each, then cloned it :crazed:!

PENDO!

Kidhuman
05-08-2004, 10:26 AM
Since he went to Kamino by himself, he most likely left before all the other jedi got underway to Geonosis. Given the time it took(probably) to round up the Jedi from here and there, Yoda was most likely on Kamino when Mace and his troops left Courascant

Pendo
05-08-2004, 11:26 AM
Since he went to Kamino by himself, he most likely left before all the other jedi got underway to Geonosis. Given the time it took(probably) to round up the Jedi from here and there, Yoda was most likely on Kamino when Mace and his troops left CourascantAlso, maybe Master Yoda contacted Kamino in advance asking them to prepare the Clonetroopers for battle. As soon as Yoda arrived the troopers could have been ready :).

PENDO!

scruffziller
05-08-2004, 12:10 PM
Yoda bent space and time using THE FORCE!!!:D

Rocketboy
05-08-2004, 04:46 PM
I think you all think too much. ;)

But in this manner of thinking, Empire is also pretty flawed.
Luke is trained as a Jedi in a manner of days?
And the little training he has is enough to battle Darth Vader?
Plus, he travels from Dagobah to Bespin in a what appears to be a few hours?

Just relax and enjoy the movies!

B'Omarr Monkey
05-08-2004, 09:59 PM
Pe in the SW movies do seem to jet across the galaxy faster than I can drive to the store for a gallon of milk. At least in ANH, the trip to Alderaan (attempted trip to Alderaan) felt like it took a little time. Even the flight from the Death Star to Yavin had a sense of a decent amount of time passing.

There's no way they could prep all those ships, vehicles, and get the clone troopers aboard and to Geonosis in the nick of time like that. Eevn Anakin and Padme's flight there took no time at all, vs their long trek aboard the freighter from Coruscant to Nabbo.

What's more troubling to me about teh Jedi and Geonosis is how poorly they fared against a bunch of battle droids. Battle droids are not supposed to be effective soldiers except for their cheapness and quantity, yet they slaughtered the Jedi, who are supposed to be awe inspiring warriors. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan took out more battle droids than that in TPM, witha casual attitude about it, and often with very little lightsaber work. Even Jar Jar slapsticked them to pieces. If you look at the Jedi in the animated Clone Wars cartoon, that arena battle should have been over with in about 3 minutes, with all the Jedi standing.

CropDuster
05-09-2004, 01:11 PM
I think you all think too much. ;)

But in this manner of thinking, Empire is also pretty flawed.
Luke is trained as a Jedi in a manner of days?
And the little training he has is enough to battle Darth Vader?
Plus, he travels from Dagobah to Bespin in a what appears to be a few hours?

Just relax and enjoy the movies!

As I recall Luke was told that he wasn't ready to battle Vader, and he went anyway. Then, he nearly got sliced to ribbons by Vader, the only reason he wasn't snuffed was because Vader wanted to try and convert him to the dark side.

CropDuster
05-09-2004, 01:24 PM
I like Pendo's idea best... they made one of each and cloned the rest. lol

But, seriously, this is a valid point. The Kamioans must have been braindead, to have an army of that magnitude, with the training facilities and ability to keep cranking them out and the armaments(whether they made them or not), at their disposal they couldn't have been opposed by anyone. Even if they didn't build their own weaponry, that could have been their first conquest, and with their advanced technology base they could have those conquered factories pumping out weapons in no time at all. They would have been unstoppable... it could have been Ep. V: The Kamino Strikes Back. :rolleyes:

Rocketboy
05-09-2004, 02:00 PM
As I recall Luke was told that he wasn't ready to battle Vader, and he went anyway. Then, he nearly got sliced to ribbons by Vader, the only reason he wasn't snuffed was because Vader wanted to try and convert him to the dark side.True, Luke was not ready to fight Vader, but he learned enough in the few days or so on Dagobah to battle Vader a lot longer than he should have been able to.

Back to the original topic about the Kamino cloners and where everything came from...
The Kaminoins state that they have constructed a clone army for the Republic, right? So perhaps constructing this army included the ships. They trained, armored, and armed the troops, so why shouldn't they have created the ships too? Seems plausible to me.
As for travel time...like someone else said, maybe Yoda "phoned" ahead while Mace gathered some Jedi.

JediTricks
05-09-2004, 03:59 PM
I have no idea how one could assume that since the Kaminoans engineered the clones, they must have built all of the machines to go with it. I'm quite sure that there was a good amount of outsourcing involved with this project.Here's the problem I have with that, it's a big galaxy that's still run by the Galactic Senate so I feel that a task as large as equipping a massive army such as this wouldn't be able to stay SO secret that neither the Senate nor the Jedi order ever hear a peep about it. Look at how much work they did in Ep 2 just to hide the plans to the first Death Star, and Leia eventually got her hands on those. One could argue that the 2nd DS was built in secret, but keep in mind that the Galactic Senate is dissolved in ANH, from then on the Emperor is much more able to focus and control resources directly instead of having to work with the bureaucracy.


Part of my frustration with the issue here is that I could believe these cloners could build, train, and arm maybe 50,000 troops in time for the battle of Geonosis, that seemed reasonable given that they did take 10 years to make 'em, but there seems to be a nearly endless number of these clones throughout the film and their resources are remarkably massive for an army nobody's ever heard about before.

Kidhuman
05-09-2004, 08:39 PM
JT, having Kamino removed from the archives kind of put a stop to the Jedi, out of sight, out of mind. Then, Palpantine, running the senate, knew completely about the clones(I do believe), and beng the master of the Dark SIde, blocked it fromthe Jedi, as well as his presence. He kind of pulled the Jedi Mind trick on all the Jedi.

Edit: For those wondering about Luke and Bespin in ESB...just click the :beard:. I asked the same question awhile back. :beard: (http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=18739&highlight=time+question)

B'Omarr Monkey
05-09-2004, 09:04 PM
What I want to know I is who dropped dead of a heart attack when the Kaminoans handed them the bill for 10 years of developing this clone army.

Were they getting money for it all along? It seems weird that after it was commissioned they'd received no further word until Obi-Wan showed up and get pumping out clones without ever knowing if their bill was going to get paid.

Kidhuman
05-09-2004, 09:22 PM
They were most likely paid in advance for this stuff. Either that or Sifo-dias just kept pumping money in there.

dr_evazan22
05-09-2004, 11:24 PM
One of the books from E2 explained where the ships and such came from (I think it was the visual dictionary, not sure tho). But part of the training that the troops should have gone through would've been how to handle the equipment and vehicles.

The topic of funding is a great question, and I'd love to see it addressed in the EU. I believe that Palpy and Sidious are one and the same; that as Chancellor (actually Senator, since it seems Sifo Dyas was dead by the time TPM came around) he was able to divert funds from the budget.

I'd also point out that the Republic did not encompass the entire galaxy, with TPM as proof. Just because a planet is in the archives does not ensure it's in the Republic.

B'Omarr Monkey
05-09-2004, 11:37 PM
Sifo Dias (or however he's spelled) is probably also Palpatine. It just seems like there was a bit of weight thrown on this character in AOTC to have him be a disembodied name who doesn't come into play later. Also, now that G.L. has tightened these movies down so that only a handful of characters, their ancestors and descendants seem to have had any impact on the galaxy as a whole, it wouldn't be surprising if one more character were combined with another.

I've been avoiding all the spoilers for Ep 3, so I'm pulling this completely out of the air on my own.

stillakid
05-09-2004, 11:52 PM
JT, having Kamino removed from the archives kind of put a stop to the Jedi, out of sight, out of mind. Then, Palpantine, running the senate, knew completely about the clones(I do believe), and beng the master of the Dark SIde, blocked it fromthe Jedi, as well as his presence. He kind of pulled the Jedi Mind trick on all the Jedi.[/URL]


He couldn't have blocked anything. Using the Force would have alerted the Jedi to his presence and we know that they can stand mere inches away and not detect a thing. So no, Palpatine could not possibly be using the Force to mask his presence nor the presence of the Clone Army. It's a Catch 22.


Space travel aside, we have to assume that all those ships and weapons were already on Kamino with Clones in them by the time Yoda got there. Which means that either the hardware was manufactured there or it was delivered from elsewhere. And if it did come from somewhere else, why didn't anyone hear about it and how did it get to Kamino before Yoda did?

This falls into Lucas's own strategy of keeping the movie moving fast enough so that the audience can't see the flaws. It works fine until the audience sees it again.

Kidhuman
05-10-2004, 08:56 AM
He couldn't have blocked anything. Using the Force would have alerted the Jedi to his presence and we know that they can stand mere inches away and not detect a thing. So no, Palpatine could not possibly be using the Force to mask his presence nor the presence of the Clone Army. It's a Catch 22.


Space travel aside, we have to assume that all those ships and weapons were already on Kamino with Clones in them by the time Yoda got there. Which means that either the hardware was manufactured there or it was delivered from elsewhere. And if it did come from somewhere else, why didn't anyone hear about it and how did it get to Kamino before Yoda did?

This falls into Lucas's own strategy of keeping the movie moving fast enough so that the audience can't see the flaws. It works fine until the audience sees it again.


I'll agree on that he couldnt use the force without being detected, but he is masking his presence well. "The dark side clouds our vision" or something to that affect Yoda claims. Beats me how its done, but G Lu better explain that one in EPIII.

How did the hardware arrive befiore Yoda? Easy it had ten years to come in slowly. Prep the clones, teach them to use weapons,and fly gunships. All part of the training IMO, so it was there already.

arctangent
05-10-2004, 09:55 AM
How did the hardware arrive befiore Yoda? Easy it had ten years to come in slowly. Prep the clones, teach them to use weapons,and fly gunships. All part of the training IMO, so it was there already.

true. you don't spend ten years growing an army of lots of clones without thinking of equiping them with a means to get off planet when required. i don't believe the kaminoans built the ships themselves either. in all the star wars books space ship yards are in space above a planet (i.e. kuat) and are so large that even obi-wan might have noticed them on his approach to kamino had they been there. i believe they must have been outsourced and built by a private company (i.e. like kuat), who are very good at building ships without others finding out about them, over the years it took to grow the clones. you can't just make spaceships overnight you know ;) .

lucidebass
05-10-2004, 12:15 PM
I think you all think too much. ;)

But in this manner of thinking, Empire is also pretty flawed.
Luke is trained as a Jedi in a manner of days?
And the little training he has is enough to battle Darth Vader?
Plus, he travels from Dagobah to Bespin in a what appears to be a few hours?

Just relax and enjoy the movies!


:D AMEN!! :D

JediTricks
05-10-2004, 07:30 PM
JT, having Kamino removed from the archives kind of put a stop to the Jedi, out of sight, out of mind. Then, Palpantine, running the senate, knew completely about the clones(I do believe), and beng the master of the Dark SIde, blocked it fromthe Jedi, as well as his presence. He kind of pulled the Jedi Mind trick on all the Jedi.That would be fine if the Jedi were all just computers, but they're supposed to be real people with a strong sense of tradition and history and an adept magical power that senses danger and future & past situations. So for neither the senate nor the Jedi to notice the massive funnelling of funds and materials required to equip these clones without outside intervention/manipulation hiding it seems hard to believe.

Now, if you are right in suggesting that Palpatine used his Force powers to block curiosity about where these resources were going from the Jedi while strongly manipulating the senate into looking the other way on it, then I think it has to be stated or at least strongly suggested in the film. Instead, all we get is confusing, vague nonsense about Jedi Master Sifo Dyas which ends up being a half-mentioned McGuffin.



Were they getting money for it all along? It seems weird that after it was commissioned they'd received no further word until Obi-Wan showed up and get pumping out clones without ever knowing if their bill was going to get paid.I believe we're supposed to infer that Count Dooku, who besides being a rogue Jedi, is also independently wealthy being the Count of the planet Serenno (which itself is not even suggested in the film except by calling him "Count Dooku"), is paying for them. But we don't really KNOW or even have a strong suspicion because it's not mentioned in the film which is pretty sloppy IMO. It'd be one thing if the Kaminoans showed some sort of devotion to the Sith or to the Republic or to Palpatine or to Sidious or to Dooku or to Tyrannus or to ANYBODY to explain why they'd do this big job without mention of pay, but the Kaminoans are presented as doing this simply because it's their job in life.




He couldn't have blocked anything. Using the Force would have alerted the Jedi to his presence and we know that they can stand mere inches away and not detect a thing. So no, Palpatine could not possibly be using the Force to mask his presence nor the presence of the Clone Army. It's a Catch 22.You know what? I'd be willing to buy KH's theory if that was how Lucas had presented it in the film, but he didn't, and this whole "well, mebbe he'll explain in Ep 3" excuse doesn't work for me since virtually no groundwork was laid on that.

arctangent
05-11-2004, 05:57 AM
That would be fine if the Jedi were all just computers, but they're supposed to be real people with a strong sense of tradition and history and an adept magical power that senses danger and future & past situations. So for neither the senate nor the Jedi to notice the massive funnelling of funds and materials required to equip these clones without outside intervention/manipulation hiding it seems hard to believe.

governments are full of inherently corrupt people only interested in lining their own pockets and the persuit of power. baring in mind that the senate is in charge of thousands of planets, they spend most of their time arguing (as we see in E1). its the civil servants who probably wield most of the power and keep the republic running (just) and there must be so many planets and departments that no one would be able to keep track of what money was going where. its likely that the money for the clones and their equipment went through many different companies on many different planets to conceal where it was really going and what it was for. and besides are you going to question the man in charge (ie. palpatine) about what he is ordering money to be spent on when he appears to be a trustworth individual with the republic's best interests at heart.

and as for the jedi, they are not interested in the government and politics and obviously have an inherent distrust of them - obi wan warns anakin not to trust politicians. its not their job to know where money and materials are going or what they are for - they are keepers of the peace.


Now, if you are right in suggesting that Palpatine used his Force powers to block curiosity about where these resources were going from the Jedi while strongly manipulating the senate into looking the other way on it, then I think it has to be stated or at least strongly suggested in the film. Instead, all we get is confusing, vague nonsense about Jedi Master Sifo Dyas which ends up being a half-mentioned McGuffin.

yoda admits that the jedi's powers are diminished because they didn't spot the creation of the clone army. the dark side is rising and blocking their powers one way or another. maybe its just enough that a strong sith lord is coming to power.

however i agree that the rubbish about sifo dias is confusing and pointless - its never explained, he has never been mentioned before and just seems to be a quick tool to explain how the army was created without ever really explaining who or why. its a rather big loose end that shouldn't have been left to E3 to explain (if indeed it will be).

dr_evazan22
05-11-2004, 09:52 AM
On the topic of payment, it was briefly mentioned in the movie that Jango demanded a perfect unaltered clone for payment. It is fair, IMO, to assume that the Kaminoans have been paid as well. Especially when you consider what Dex said, that the Kaminoans are the best cloners in the business and that to aquire their services you had to pay really well.

Now let's consider the facts that we know from the movie about the clones creation, or should I say, who ordered the clones...

- Sifo Dias (or someone posing as him) placed the order for the clones 10 years, but
- Sifo Dias was killed over 10 years ago, pre-TPM. I think this is the vacancy that Ki-Adi Mundi fills on the JC
- Count Dooku left the Jedi Order about 10 years ago
- Jango was recruited by a man named Tyrannus, on a moon of Bogdan
- Dooku is revealed to the audience as Lord (Darth) Tyrannus
- It is revealed to the Jedi, thru Obi and Mace, that Dooku and Jango have some kind of a working / business relationship

I realize that there are some gaps there, but there is enough there to convice me of what happened. Not enough to prove anything in a court, but enough to know what happened. Would it make for a cleaner story if we were taken by the hand and shown the proofs of all this? Maybe. But would it be an enjoyable story to see? Besides, with the facts laid out here, and the suspicions that the Jedi now have, they can investigate all this in the time between AOTC and E3. And whether the CIS have been manipulated into a war or not, their desire to secede from the Republic is still genuine, and there is still a war to be fought.

Rocketboy
05-11-2004, 04:16 PM
- Sifo Dias (or someone posing as him) placed the order for the clones 10 years, but
- Sifo Dias was killed over 10 years ago, pre-TPM. I think this is the vacancy that Ki-Adi Mundi fills on the JC
- Count Dooku left the Jedi Order about 10 years ago
- Jango was recruited by a man named Tyrannus, on a moon of Bogdan
- Dooku is revealed to the audience as Lord (Darth) Tyrannus
- It is revealed to the Jedi, thru Obi and Mace, that Dooku and Jango have some kind of a working / business relationshipAlthough it isn't in the movies, do they actually say that Dooku is searching for the right person to be the basis for the clones in the "Bounty Hunter" game? And "Bounty Hunter" takes place shorty after TPM. Considering that then I don't see any reason to believe that it wasn't Dooku or Sidious posing as Sifo Dias and ordering the clones.

Kidhuman
05-11-2004, 05:39 PM
Actually at the end of Bounty Hunter, Dooku(Tyrannus) offers Jango the job(position, deal). His original offer of 5 million credits toJango was turned down and replaced by Boba. Dooku has a ton of cash lying around, weather its his own, or from where ever. So to me he paid for all these clones along with the banking clan and possibly the Nemodians.

2-1B
05-12-2004, 02:54 AM
Doc Evazan,
Jango did receive Boba as "payment" but he also got some cash for the job. Llama Su said "apart from his pay, which is considerable, Fett demanded only one thing . . . "

So, I believe he received a load of cash as well as the kid (maybe that's what you meant as well - sorry if I confused it). :)

dr_evazan22
05-12-2004, 07:16 PM
Good point C, I was focusing on the second half of that statement.

I've got a question for you guys...

What if Obi, thru Dex, was unable to identify the dart as coming from Kamino?

JediTricks
05-12-2004, 10:52 PM
One thing I thought of yesterday, the Kaminoans were paid by the Republic, Palpatine ensured that the funds paying for this new clone army had just been approved by the senate due to the building Separatist conflict. As soon as Palpatine's power and money were green lighted, he probably paid off the cloners and said "wow, look how convenient this new army is, perfectly timed!"



governments are full of inherently corrupt people only interested in lining their own pockets and the persuit of power.Yes, absolutely, but in the real world, the people know about a lot of what's going on, they just look the other way or enjoy the coverups or get distracted by other issues - I would expect the SW universe to be like this as well, when you look at how the Holonet News site was run building up to Episode II's release, you can see just how


its the civil servants who probably wield most of the power and keep the republic running (just) and there must be so many planets and departments that no one would be able to keep track of what money was going where. its likely that the money for the clones and their equipment went through many different companies on many different planets to conceal where it was really going and what it was for.The problem I have with that theory is that in real life, the more hands involved in a project, the more often we see information leaks and whistleblowers and little pieces of info that slowly build up in the minds of watchdogs, surely the Jedi would likely act as those watchdogs here.


and as for the jedi, they are not interested in the government and politics and obviously have an inherent distrust of them - obi wan warns anakin not to trust politicians. its not their job to know where money and materials are going or what they are for - they are keepers of the peace.That's not what we're shown though, Yoda and Mace both show interest in matters of the Senate, 10 years earlier Chancellor Valorum chose the Jedi to investigate the matters on Naboo - the Jedi are interested I think.


yoda admits that the jedi's powers are diminished because they didn't spot the creation of the clone army. the dark side is rising and blocking their powers one way or another. maybe its just enough that a strong sith lord is coming to power.Is THAT what you saw there? I didn't see much of that, I didn't see that was the reason for the Jedi powers being diminished, I didn't see specific mention of powers being "blocked", this is part of what I was referring to about Lucas leaving those things too vague and half-mentioned. I don't feel that was sufficient groundwork for these things, especially when the film lends so little weight to these issues.



And whether the CIS have been manipulated into a war or not, their desire to secede from the Republic is still genuine, and there is still a war to be fought.I thought the Seceeding worlds were doing so because they were being manipulated by Dooku.


What if Obi, thru Dex, was unable to identify the dart as coming from Kamino?IIRC, we've danced that dance before, when discussing whether Jango was genuinely trying to escape Kamino or if he was leading Obi-Wan (there's actually a huge chain of events in both Ep 1 and 2 that require us NOT to wonder how chance caused them to work in Sidious's favor since Sidious himself didn't plan for any of it). Anyway, I think if Obi-Wan hadn't gone to Kamino, Palpatine and Dooku would still have worked together to manipulate the Separatists into attacking the Republic and this would have given Palpy his executive powers concerning the creation of the army. Obi-Wan's adventures merely advanced his insidious plans' timeline here.

CropDuster
05-19-2004, 01:24 PM
I would assume the payment would have to come from the Republic, because I would imagine that it would have to be an astronomical sum of money. Dooku may be independently wealthy, but it seems rather outlandish that any rich guy could purchase, train, house, maintain, and equip an army of such magnitude with no equal in the universe.

JediTricks
05-19-2004, 03:44 PM
Someone likely had to give some sort of downpayment though, the cloners would be fools to take on such an enormous task without a deposit. Paying for all the materials alone on a job this size would probably cost enough to bankrupt the cloners without some sort early payment. This would probably come from Dooku, who has vast sums of money from his home planet that are out of the hands of the Republic - it most likely wouldn't be money from the Separatists or the industrialists who end up joining it because they'd want to know where the money was going, and we got no indication that they were in on this 10 years prior to AOTC.

dr_evazan22
05-19-2004, 05:11 PM
When talking about something from the films I try to keep my responses rooted in something that happens on film. Unfortunately, there is nothing in the film to help here, with the exception being that, according to the cloners the Jedi ordered the clones for the Republic, and that Jango had been paid.

Having said all that, in the book Rogue Planet, it is established that the Jedi have some insane, incalculable amount of money. It is with this fund that the Jedi send Ani and Obi to Zonoma Sekot to purchase a living space ship.

So, with this premise, it is possible that Dooku, posing as Sifo, placed and paid for the order.

Although I still believe that the order was paid for by the Republic (with the knowledge of the Republic) with money skimmed from numerous different budgets, possibly even from some sort of black budget (although why a govt with no military [what's up with that? This isn't Star Trek where violence has ben abolished; plus the Republic doesn't control the entire galaxy] would have a black budget is beyond me).

JediTricks
05-19-2004, 06:05 PM
According to the official site's Holonet site, the reason there was no Galactic Republic army was because they used a U.N.-type force of local armies from the various Republic worlds for anything that required a force of that size.

arctangent
05-20-2004, 07:11 AM
One thing I thought of yesterday, the Kaminoans were paid by the Republic, Palpatine ensured that the funds paying for this new clone army had just been approved by the senate due to the building Separatist conflict. As soon as Palpatine's power and money were green lighted, he probably paid off the cloners and said "wow, look how convenient this new army is, perfectly timed!"


[QUOTE=JediTricks]Yes, absolutely, but in the real world, the people know about a lot of what's going on, they just look the other way or enjoy the coverups or get distracted by other issues - I would expect the SW universe to be like this as well, when you look at how the Holonet News site was run building up to Episode II's release, you can see just how

you only have to look at what is going on in iraq to see who people donít really have a clue whatís going onwithin their own governments. and that the people in power can say and do what they want and get away with it.


The problem I have with that theory is that in real life, the more hands involved in a project, the more often we see information leaks and whistleblowers and little pieces of info that slowly build up in the minds of watchdogs, surely the Jedi would likely act as those watchdogs here.

except they are too busy running around the universe keeping the peace and not noticing how their powers are diminished.


That's not what we're shown though, Yoda and Mace both show interest in matters of the Senate, 10 years earlier Chancellor Valorum chose the Jedi to investigate the matters on Naboo - the Jedi are interested I think.

i think they are interested as far as the politicians decisions affect them and they obviously like to know what is going on but obi-wan does warn anakin not to trust politicians. qui-gonn and obi-wan may be used as pawns by the politicians but they themselves are trying to solve the trade dispute and keep the peace. none of the jedi ever seem actively involved in politics, they seem aloof from it.


Is THAT what you saw there? I didn't see much of that, I didn't see that was the reason for the Jedi powers being diminished, I didn't see specific mention of powers being "blocked", this is part of what I was referring to about Lucas leaving those things too vague and half-mentioned. I don't feel that was sufficient groundwork for these things, especially when the film lends so little weight to these issues.

well, yoda does state in the film ďblind are we is the creation of this clone army we didnít seeĒ (or words to that effect - i canít remember exactly). he then says he must go and inform the senate that the jediís pwers are diminished. remember in the phantom menace they were sure they would have felt a sith warrior through the force and discounted the possibility that the warrior qui-gonn fought on tatooine was a sith. darth maul WAS a sith warrior and the jedi were wrong - so even then their powers were on the wane. you are right that it is never mentioned directly but surely thatís because the jedi donít yet know just how much of a hold the dark side has in the senate or that palpatine is the sith lord and about to overthrow the republic - i can see no other logical reason for their diminished powers other than the rise of sideous and the dark side. i assume this will be further revealed in episode 3.

CropDuster
05-20-2004, 11:03 AM
you only have to look at what is going on in iraq to see who people donít really have a clue whatís going onwithin their own governments. and that the people in power can say and do what they want and get away with it.


The amount of funding needed for the clone army would be astronomical. It would be noticed by someone. We may not know exactly what is happening in Iraq, but we do know we have troops there and we know when the gov't requests more funds for the war, and, as proven by the Iraq prison fiasco, monica lewinsky, watergate, mi lai massacre, etc., gov't is rather inept at keeping anything secret. The more people involved, the more possibility for a leak. So, on those grounds, I would think that it would be impossible to keep an operation of such magnitude, with so many individuals involved, secret, especially with the enormous allocation of funds that would be necessary to execute a project of such scale. I don't think we are talking about a sum of money that could just be overlooked. Someone might be able to swipe from the gov't funds, but enough for a large army? In our gov't that would be billions of $$$. I'm sure the republic has book keepers like ours does. And, for Dooku to fund it seems highly implausible. Even if he was the richest guy in the republic I don't see how he could afford it. The most wealthy person in the world is one of the sheik's in Saudi Arabia I believe, and he owns a few F-14's or F-15's, but he couldn't in his wildest dreams afford to pay, train, house, and equip an army large enough to conquer a modern country much less the whole world.

JediTricks
05-21-2004, 05:14 AM
you only have to look at what is going on in iraq to see who people donít really have a clue whatís going onwithin their own governments. and that the people in power can say and do what they want and get away with it.This is a paradoxical statement, how could we look at the situation in Iraq to see an example of the system being invisible to the people if we can see it? ;) Seriously though, I think my point still stands, in real life, we may not see all the little things but stuff as massive as this, the people and their representatives eventually get wind of.


except they are too busy running around the universe keeping the peace and not noticing how their powers are diminished. That's a broad interpretation of a couple vague statements IMO, we can see right in front of us on screen that the Jedi are concerned about galactic politics and such, we see Yoda and Mace and Obi-Wan and even Anakin discussing these things, we see them sitting in with Padme's anti-Republic-Army committee when talking to Palpatine for example.



i think they are interested as far as the politicians decisions affect them and they obviously like to know what is going on but obi-wan does warn anakin not to trust politicians. qui-gonn and obi-wan may be used as pawns by the politicians but they themselves are trying to solve the trade dispute and keep the peace. none of the jedi ever seem actively involved in politics, they seem aloof from it. Clearly that's widely open to interpretation, but I will point out that Qui-Gon is the one who decided that Amidala must speak directly before the senate during the Trade Federation invasion.



i can see no other logical reason for their diminished powers other than the rise of sideous and the dark side. I can, the growing disenchantment the general population has with the Jedi order. This may indirectly be the result of Sith meddling, but the council's claim about sensing the return of the Sith seems suspect to me since Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan never actually sense the Sith up close anyway, they're always blindsided by it.

stillakid
05-21-2004, 09:50 AM
I can, the growing disenchantment the general population has with the Jedi order.


Except that it's too bad that we never see it. Who is "disenchanted" with the Jedi Order exactly? And why? For that matter, who is disenchanted with the Republic and why? The only groups we see in "opposition" to the Republic are joined in progress and we have absolutely NO clue as to why they feel the need to stir up trouble and join Dooku. And when it comes to the Jedi, we see even less "disenchantment" as you call it. I mean, these guys are really nothing more than glorified cops (wouldn't you love to see a space aged version of Barney Miller with Jedi instead? :D ) so besides the usual junkie who is annoyed by the "fuzz," we never see any onscreen "disenchantment" really with anyone.

:confused:

JediTricks
05-21-2004, 07:51 PM
Lucas should have shown that, possibly in the Senate, even just a comment on the floor about how the Jedi have become pompous zealots more interested in slicing off arms than guarding the peace - something akin to how the Samurai were eventually seen and dismantled by the Japanese populace. I've always thought that the destruction of the Jedi should not come at the hands of an evil army or anything so obvious, but by Palpatine, using Anakin's help understanding of the Jedi order, turning the people against the Jedi, letting the people outlaw the Jedi order, then have them hunted down by various forces. Perhaps we'll see that in Ep 3, I dunno, but I would have liked the groundwork for that to have been built in the first 2 prequels.

Turambar
06-01-2004, 08:29 AM
Lucas should have shown that, possibly in the Senate, even just a comment on the floor about how the Jedi have become pompous zealots more interested in slicing off arms than guarding the peace - something akin to how the Samurai were eventually seen and dismantled by the Japanese populace. I've always thought that the destruction of the Jedi should not come at the hands of an evil army or anything so obvious, but by Palpatine, using Anakin's help understanding of the Jedi order, turning the people against the Jedi, letting the people outlaw the Jedi order, then have them hunted down by various forces. Perhaps we'll see that in Ep 3, I dunno, but I would have liked the groundwork for that to have been built in the first 2 prequels.

I like that idea. The samurai angle would have been awesome to see. So many good ideas there are from fans, but not one good idea in the prequels. I wouldn't hold your breath for E3.