PDA

View Full Version : The boy is our last hope.



Kidhuman
05-15-2004, 03:51 PM
Ben(in ESB): The Boy is our only hope
Yoda: No, There is another.



So, this would lead me to believe that Ben did not know that Leia was Lukes sister. Did Yoda hide that fact as well from everyone? WHat are your thoughts on this. Sorry if this topic had been discussed already.

Exhaust Port
05-15-2004, 04:37 PM
I had never thought of that but it would seem that Ben didn't know that Leia was the other child of Anakin/Padme or that their was another child to begin with.

sith_killer_99
05-15-2004, 05:13 PM
Hmm, I always thought, Ben just didn't think of Leia as a viable option. It's not like Obi-Wan got a big surprised look on his face when Yoda said "There is another." he just loked up as Luke took off. Besides, who would really be there to train her after Luke left, remember Yoda was getting on in his years, Luke was lucky Yoda hung on long enough to train him.

stillakid
05-15-2004, 05:29 PM
Ben(in ESB): The Boy is our only hope
Yoda: No, There is another.



So, this would lead me to believe that Ben did not know that Leia was Lukes sister. Did Yoda hide that fact as well from everyone? WHat are your thoughts on this. Sorry if this topic had been discussed already.


No, Ben knows all about Leia, but as SK says, Leia wasn't really a choice for one reason or another. After all, this is ultimately a Father/Son storyline not a Father's Daughter one. Dragging Leia into the whole Jedi Training thing had Luke failed would have hopelessly diluted the main plot line.

Remember, both Ben and Yoda know all about the lineage, but have distinctly different views over the possibilities concerning the redemption of Anakin. Obi Wan believes beyond the shadow of a doubt that the personality of Anakin is dead and gone. Yoda never really says one way or another, but he isn't beyond waffling on it, particularly when he sees how adamant Luke is about saving the guy from damnation. Granted, the Prequels aren't exactly illustrating "the good man who was your father," as Obi Wan expressed it in ROTJ so anything can happen at this point.

Kidhuman
05-15-2004, 08:31 PM
No, Ben knows all about Leia, but as SK says, Leia wasn't really a choice for one reason or another. After all, this is ultimately a Father/Son storyline not a Father's Daughter one. Dragging Leia into the whole Jedi Training thing had Luke failed would have hopelessly diluted the main plot line.

Remember, both Ben and Yoda know all about the lineage, but have distinctly different views over the possibilities concerning the redemption of Anakin. Obi Wan believes beyond the shadow of a doubt that the personality of Anakin is dead and gone. Yoda never really says one way or another, but he isn't beyond waffling on it, particularly when he sees how adamant Luke is about saving the guy from damnation. Granted, the Prequels aren't exactly illustrating "the good man who was your father," as Obi Wan expressed it in ROTJ so anything can happen at this point.


Okay, lets take this into consideration. Obi is with Angakin when Padme gives birth. Yoda is with her(might also help explain why Yoda and Padme were together in the CW cartoon.) All Obi would know is she wags pregnant and gave birth to Luke, whom he hid. Yoda gives Leia to Bail and calls it a day, doesnt say anything. Its a secret that he carries with him until he tells Obi-Wan in ESB. The less that know the better in this situation. I am going to watch ROTJ later tonight to see exactly what Ben tells Luke and then comment on this further.

Jaff
05-15-2004, 11:43 PM
I always had the viewpoint that Yoda is speaking of Darth because if Luke turned to the Darkside there would be noone to train Leia. Ben was a ghost, and Yoda was on his way to being one, and they both knew it. The only hope was that Anakin could break from his hero worship of Palpatine. If he got his head clear and think of all that he did he would set things right.

stillakid
05-16-2004, 12:15 AM
I always had the viewpoint that Yoda is speaking of Darth because if Luke turned to the Darkside there would be noone to train Leia. Ben was a ghost, and Yoda was on his way to being one, and they both knew it. The only hope was that Anakin could break from his hero worship of Palpatine. If he got his head clear and think of all that he did he would set things right.


I think you're on the right track here. We know that Leia wasn't able to tap into her Midichlorian supply enough to see Jedi ghosts so her only shot at being trained (if Luke either turned or died) was by Yoda. But as we see, Yoda was on his last legs as it was. This isn't to say that there isn't Jedi Speed Training available. Afterall, Luke managed the technical stuff fairly well in a relatively short amount of time. The rest of it was all mental (control etc) and when it comes down to it, that part of his training was unnaturally expedited by the traumatic situation with his father. Most Jedi didn't have that sort of thing available to them so their "maturity" had to come more slowly. Luke had no choice but to grow out of his naivite or die in the process. He also had a period of time in which to digest this familial relationship thing. Had Luke turned or died, Leia would have none of that buffer zone before getting a visit from a strange green gnome who would tell her a lot of really heavy stuff. Granted, she's a strong character, but that's a lot to heap on anyone all at once. I don't think that Yoda was willing to take that sort of chance at losing such a patriot for the Rebellion just so that the Jedi could continue through her.

Kidhuman
05-16-2004, 07:11 AM
Ok watched ROTJ last night:


Ben: The other is your twin sister
Luke: But I have no sister
Ben: To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden when you were born. The Emepror knew gas I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring they would be a threat to him. That is why your sister remains anonymous.


Ok. Was she made known to Ben on Dagobah agfter Luke left gand Yoda told him? Afterall,he was dead at that point, so he could not tell anyone really except Luke. Maybe if Obi-Wan knew about Leia he wouldnt of given himself to the force in ANH. He doesnt hint either way if he knew or he didnt know.

I am just tossing questions agnd some possibilities out there. I am not saying this is what happened. Just some discussion pieces.

Jaff, that is also a good point you made. By giving Leia to Bail, she could fight from the inside, being a member of the Imperial Senate. Each hgad their own destiny to uphold. Lukes was to physically take down the Empire while Leias could have been more systematical. Hopefully G. Lu. can clear this all up in EP3 for us.

ANother question is why didnt they find other Jedi in the 18 or so years of waiting for Luke?

Bel-Cam Jos
05-16-2004, 08:56 AM
Non-serious response:
Obi-Wan had practiced his line for several occasions, so the others went like this...

Ben: "That boy was our last hope." (meaning Luke)
Yoda: "No, there is another."

Ben: "That girl was our last hope." (meaning Leia)
Yoda: "No, there is another."

Ben: "That wookiee was our last hope." (meaning Chebacca)
Yoda: "No, there is another."

Ben: "That half-man, half-machine was our last hope." (meaning Vader)
Yoda: "No, there is another."

Ben: "That clone was our last hope." (meaning Boba Fett)
Yoda: "No, there is another."

Ben: "That Gran was our last hope." (meaning Ree-Yees)
Yoda: "No, there is another."

I think you get the idea. :rolleyes:

Serious response: I think that since Luke had the 'ben'efit (pun painfully intended) of Obi-Wan's short training, as well as the desire to defeat Vader, Obi-Wan felt Leia, if she were willing, would take more time to develop as a Jedi than Luke. Luke was apparently a stronger Jedi Force user, so maybe Leia's abilities would simply have been less strong, too. And the obvious reason would be that Lucas simply wanted some suspense put into the story, leaving this mysterious "another" anonymous for the time being.

Jon
06-06-2004, 03:09 PM
Just to throw my two cents in, I will subscribe to the theory that Yoda told Ben in ESB after Luke left Dagobah. There was no indication when Ben saw the hologram message from Leia in ANH asking for help that he knew Luke was seeing his sister. He never mentioned going to rescue his sister or anything like that. It is entirely possilbe that in EIII that Obi Wan is not present at the birth of the twins, only Yoda. That way neither Bail nor Obi Wan know the existence of the other child. Obi Wan never tells Luke in ROJ that he separated him and Leia just that they were separated.

stillakid
06-06-2004, 04:00 PM
Just to throw my two cents in, I will subscribe to the theory that Yoda told Ben in ESB after Luke left Dagobah. There was no indication when Ben saw the hologram message from Leia in ANH asking for help that he knew Luke was seeing his sister. He never mentioned going to rescue his sister or anything like that. It is entirely possilbe that in EIII that Obi Wan is not present at the birth of the twins, only Yoda. That way neither Bail nor Obi Wan know the existence of the other child. Obi Wan never tells Luke in ROJ that he separated him and Leia just that they were separated.

True. All of that is plausible, but it's just as reasonable to conclude that Old Ben did know about the split and simply chose to not bring it up to Luke on Tatooine because this was the beginning of the process which would eventually bring Luke to his destiny. The guy just got clobbered by a Tusken Raider and you think Ben is going to go, "oh, hey, it's your sister!" Not only does Luke not really know who this old hermit is, but why on earth (Tatooine) would a desert scavenger know anything about his family? Sure, he lets him in on the lightsaber thing and daddy, but daddy is presumably dead. This hot glowing chick is still out there and in trouble. That's a lot to heap on the kid all at once.

Kidhuman
06-06-2004, 04:24 PM
But Luke was refusing to go to Alderaan until his family died. Luke is drooling over his sister and Ben is just smiling? I guess hopefully that EP3 will clear this up one way or another. My guess is the less people that knew about this the better. Ben took Luke gand Bail took Leia. Yoda knew of both and that was it. Secret well kept by Yoda. By telling Luke exactly what had happened it would of made him want to go to Alderaan and continue his quest if he was opposed. If Owen agnd Beru had not died, Luke would of stayed on Tatooine and nothing would of came of anything because Ben was gone.

Darth Jax
06-06-2004, 07:20 PM
all 5 films thus far have been one amazing set of coincidences. ep 3 will be no exception to this. each of the screenplays were accomplished with the aid of the improbability pen (douglas adams will please forgive me)

stillakid
06-07-2004, 01:11 AM
all 5 films thus far have been one amazing set of coincidences. ep 3 will be no exception to this. each of the screenplays were accomplished with the aid of the improbability pen (douglas adams will please forgive me)

I disagree with that general assertion. The vast majority of the OT made complete sense. The biggest coincidence of all is having R2 be a former droid of Ben's. But even the Prequels don't really prove that to be the case, at least not in the way that R2 implies in ANH. Anyhow, Leia got the plans to the Death Star and was told about General Kenobi by her father Bail. Bail obviously was in on the baby thing so he knew where to send Leia. And of course he would also know that Luke would be there as well. So why would Bail know about the switch and not Kenobi?

Moving on from there, our next coincidence is that the droids are picked up by Jawas and just so happen to be taken to Luke's farm. I'll give you that one, but they had to get there somehow and having them just mosey in to town probably would have been worse.

Luke finds out about Old Ben and Leia which Owen would have been told about when his brother Ben (forget that Expanded Universe Prequel crap...it'll never make sense) decided that Luke should be raised in a proper home. With Obi Wan in the Witness Protection Program just waiting in the shadows for the time to bring out the secret weapon (Luke), he knew that the boy needed some proper upbringing. So Owen would have been privy to just about everything.

On so on...you get the idea. Some coincidences are necessary, but for the most part, the connections are valid.

bigbarada
06-07-2004, 01:23 AM
I think the only real implausible coincidence of the OT would be Leia and Luke being brother and sister. I know Lucas asserts that it was planned all along, but that contradicts what he said before when he stated that the "other" was supposed to be the female star of another trilogy taking place concurrently with the OT. Obvious when he wrote ROTJ and decided not to do any other trilogies, he used Leia as the "other" in order to just tie up that loose end (as sloppy as it was).

Now, I just have this question, if Lucas knew all along that Luke and Leia were siblings, then why even hint at any romantic interest in ANH and why have them kiss passionately in ESB? These were supposed to be kid's movies!

Darth Jax
06-07-2004, 01:31 AM
if it wasn't coincidence, it must've been part of palpy's grand schemes.

he knew that vader would attempt to lure luke into a trap. he knew that yoda was still alive. he knew that they'd have to tell luke and that luke couldn't keep a secret.

stillakid
06-07-2004, 01:43 AM
palpy's grand schemes.

.

While we're talking about coincidences.... :rolleyes: Not ONE of Palpy's schemes has ever gone according to his nefarious plan. Everytime something happens, it just so happens to work out in his favor, but not through any design of his own. It's just a lot of simple nonsense that "foresee" crap of his is.

JEDIpartner
06-07-2004, 09:58 AM
In brief:

Ben may have assumed that Luke would be the last hope because he had a certain amount of training. Ben probably did nothing to stop Luke from swooning over Leia because that would start Luke to thinking about the reasons behind it. He may have discovered the reason and "revealed" the connection to Vader, thus screwing it all up. Yoda probably knew that Leia was a strong-willed woman and knew that she could rise to the occasion in the event that something were to happen to Luke.

Just playing connect the dots.