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Droid
05-20-2004, 01:06 PM
On the MSNBC.Com websight there is an article about how Episode III could be saved. It contains no spoilers. The guy writing it is way out of the loop. He is saying Lucas should not write or direct it and that they recast Padme and Anakin. This article might have been relevant right after Episode II, but the thing has been written, directed, and filmed. If Episode III isn't already good, there isn't much that could be done to save it at this point!

Jay86
05-20-2004, 03:50 PM
That article was hilarious. Most movie critics are just lame anyway though, so go figure.

JediTricks
05-21-2004, 05:02 AM
I thought it was a good commentary article, it was passionate about it but not ridiculously fanboy-esque. I don't agree with everything the author said, but I definitely feel where he's coming from, and judging from the feedback page on the article, I'd say there are others out there who see it similarly.

The article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4980465

stillakid
05-21-2004, 10:11 AM
Surprise surprise, I agree with just about everything he said even if just in the spirit of the argument.

I do question how much he does know about the topic overall though as his following statement is fundamentally false:


While you’re at it, fire Lucas the writer, who has not come up with a single witty or memorable phrase in the four hours of prequel trilogy out so far. The first trilogy didn’t have this problem: For instance, “The Empire Strikes Back” had the help of the great noir writer Leigh Brackett.

Yeah, Leigh has some influence, but as I understand it, after she passed away, Kasdan pretty much started from scratch. While it's possible that some of her work carried over, it's more likely that most of it went out the window.

But yeah, this kind of article is released at an odd time. Either just after Episode II or right before Episode III would have made more sense. This netherworld is a black hole for the topic. Only "fanboys" like us will take any notice at all. :D

ew2seal
05-21-2004, 09:51 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4980465/

THIS STORY WAS AT MSN.COM. AND IT REALLY TICKED ME OFF. IT WAS THE ENTERTAINMENT COMMUNITY CRAPPING ON LUCAS AND HAYDEN CHRISTIANSON. AND CALLING FOR THEIR FIRING ON EP III. IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE I HAVE ADDED A THREAD HERE ON THE FORUMS BUT I AM A DAILY READER.

dr_evazan22
05-21-2004, 09:54 PM
Take solace in the fact that opinions are like a-holes... Everyone has them. It is just the authors attempt to get themselves noticed.

Beast
05-21-2004, 09:55 PM
Welcome to the boards. But I wouldn't exactly say that it's the Entertainment Community represented in that article. It's just some shmuck with an opinion. And it's written more tongue in cheek then anything. Yes, it is a bit crude in it's opinons. But he's allowed to have them, even if they are idiotic and make no sense. EIII's filmed, and pretty much in the can other then final reshoots and finished effects. No matter what this guy thinks or says, it's going to be the story Lucas wants to tell. BTW, try turning off Caps Lock. Shouting isn't nice, m'kay. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Jay86
05-21-2004, 10:07 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4980465/

THIS STORY WAS AT MSN.COM. AND IT REALLY TICKED ME OFF. IT WAS THE ENTERTAINMENT COMMUNITY CRAPPING ON LUCAS AND HAYDEN CHRISTIANSON. AND CALLING FOR THEIR FIRING ON EP III. IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE I HAVE ADDED A THREAD HERE ON THE FORUMS BUT I AM A DAILY READER.
I said this before in another threat about this topic : Critics, whether they be music or movie critics, are 99% of the time just plain worth ignoring. They're rather hypocritical too, critiquing subjects most of them have no real prior experience in. Many movie critics have neither written their own movies or screenplays or stood behind a camera and directed one. They simply sit behind a desk or their computer and complain about things. Its a rather pathetic position to have or even a rather ridiculous job to have. And that article was just flat out funny to me, to see that someone would take their time writing that kind of article, when no matter what your position is of Episode 3 or the prequels in general, I highly doubt George and co. care about a movie critics opinion, much less the kind of vague and ignorant view that person had. Granted, we've all got the right to have opinions and display them. Another thing that struck me as funny is how people "reacted". It should be taken into consideration that the feedback that MSNBC posted of that article was clearly put there to support the author, I mean c'mon, its corporate media we're talking here, I highly doubt every person who left feedback felt the same way as the author. MSNBC isnt going to put feedback comments that are the opposite of the authors, that would only oppose the articles main point and force MSNBC to look foolish for posting such content.

Put it this way.....basically you've got a movie critic attempting to insult a guy who's done far more than that critic ever will for the movie industry and some actors who, as "lousy" as some may think they are, are better actors than that critic probably is. I'd like to see him direct a movie or act in one. Typing skills and the ability to complain about every movie you've ever watched wouldnt get you very far on a movie set.

ew2seal
05-21-2004, 10:24 PM
Sorry for the shouting in my thread I stand corrected. Anyway I am in the military so I am a hater of the media. And it just kills me the way the public is, they hear one bad thing and it dooms people. I am another one of the big star wars fans out there. And i think to dis one of the biggest movies of all time is very petty and spiteful. I just wish this country would keep negative opinions to themselves. Things would be alot better. And to all of those fans out there "may the force be with you."

elvandrik
05-21-2004, 10:31 PM
Gentleman, time to wake up and smell the bitter coffee. Face it...Episode1 and 2 were just not that good. Be honest, after waiting 20 years for him to release episaode 1, weren't you a little disappointed? My god, I'm a huge Star Wars fan and I agree with this guy. It's true, Lucas writes terrible dialogue!!!
Don't be such homers!!! I mean, they weren't total crap, but they weren't memorable either.
The guy is right when he says that the plot is not the problem. The problem is that Lucas can't write dialogue to save his life..or his trilogy. The whole midichlorian thing was totally retarded! He never even mentions it again! The fact that he actually tries to pass off anakin as a divine birth is ludicrous!!! I'm not even religous, but the only other guy I know of who was born without a father was Jesus Christ!! I think lucas is stretching things a bit far by making that comparison. There's absolutely no reason in the plot for anakin being a divine birth. It's like Lucas just threw it in there to somehow convince you that anakin was the "Chosen One". And that whole chosen one plotline is pretty tired and used. I wish he was smoking crack when he wrote this stuff, maybe he could be more original then.
The original trilogy was well done even with a few flaws. Stop lucas from exploiting the loyal fans by standing up and clapping every time he farts in the wind! The problem with the new trilogy is that there are too many people on his staff that do that now (McCallum = YesMan). I love star wars, but only a sucker defends someone who is as greedy like lucas....

Jay86
05-21-2004, 10:52 PM
Gentleman, time to wake up and smell the bitter coffee. Face it...Episode1 and 2 were just not that good. Be honest, after waiting 20 years for him to release episaode 1, weren't you a little disappointed? My god, I'm a huge Star Wars fan and I agree with this guy. It's true, Lucas writes terrible dialogue!!!
Don't be such homers!!! I mean, they weren't total crap, but they weren't memorable either.
The guy is right when he says that the plot is not the problem. The problem is that Lucas can't write dialogue to save his life..or his trilogy. The whole midichlorian thing was totally retarded! He never even mentions it again! The fact that he actually tries to pass off anakin as a divine birth is ludicrous!!! I'm not even religous, but the only other guy I know of who was born without a father was Jesus Christ!! I think lucas is stretching things a bit far by making that comparison. There's absolutely no reason in the plot for anakin being a divine birth. It's like Lucas just threw it in there to somehow convince you that anakin was the "Chosen One". And that whole chosen one plotline is pretty tired and used. I wish he was smoking crack when he wrote this stuff, maybe he could be more original then.
The original trilogy was well done even with a few flaws. Stop lucas from exploiting the loyal fans by standing up and clapping every time he farts in the wind! The problem with the new trilogy is that there are too many people on his staff that do that now (McCallum = YesMan). I love star wars, but only a sucker defends someone who is as greedy like lucas....
Thats just your opinion though, not any kind of truth. When it comes to the prequels or Star Wars in general, how good they are is all in the eyes of those watching. Theres no one real answer to how good they are, thats left to the viewer.

Beast
05-21-2004, 10:56 PM
I have nothing to wake up from. I like the prequels, and prefer them to the OT in most respects. And after a 20 year wait of hype, nothing short of the second coming of so-called Jesus could have met expectations. There was no way any movie could live up to the pedestals that most fans have placed the OT on.

The plot is fine in my opinion. And if you've read the explainations behind midiclorians, they do make sense. And drop the use of retarded, it's as bad as they 'word that means homosexual', being used for calling something bad. There was no need to mention it again. Qui-Gon explained it to Anakin, that's the end.

You don't see the force being explained sixteen times during the OT. It's explained once and expanded on some in Empire. So why should midiclorians have to be constantly mentioned and brought back up. As for the divine birth thing, so what. It's an aspect of lore and history, something the Star Wars Saga is steeped in.

Anakin was the chosen one, because it was set up in the OT. That Luke was the 'New Hope'. Anakin was the original 'hope', the chosen one that would destroy the dark side and bring balance to the force. Seriously, if you think that the OT is without flaws, I'd wonder who was the one who was smoking the crack. ;) :D

How is Lucas exploiting loyal fans, who actually like the Prequels. Seriously, may want to re-read that and try to make some semblance of sense out of that. Are there things I don't like about the PT. Heck yes. But there's just as many things I don't like about the OT. I refuse to put those movies on a pedestal like they are perfect. Because they are not. Far from it, even Empire which most fans prefer to the others.

And how is Lucas greedy? That is the epitome of the idiotic arguiment. Yes, god forbid he finances something himself. And pays for most of these movies himself, so he doesn't have to work in the studio system. God forbid that he spends his own money to please himself with the OT DVD releases. Arguing he's greedy is ridiculous. As much money as he's sunk into things that make other movies better, he's far from greedy.

Perhaps you're just a bit too spoiled? But that's just an opinion, not a fact. Just like everything in both of our posts on these forums. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Deoxyribonucleic
05-21-2004, 11:07 PM
The guy is right when he says that the plot is not the problem. The problem is that Lucas can't write dialogue to save his life..or his trilogy.

Yeah, I totally agree, hence the fact that SW, ESB and for the most part ROTJ were good movies...because LUCAS didn't write them. He didn't even write the first book, it was "ghost" written by Alan Dean Foster, and GL took credit for it. To me, that speaks louder than words. But alas, this is just my opinion and I'm happy sticking with the Original Trilogy...just think of it this way, there will be one more open seat at the premier of Ep3 for those who are totally stoked about it. ;) lol lol lol

EDIT: Holy crammoly, within the few minutes it took me to write this post above, there was three new HUGE posts already...a great discussion, kinda like the abortion thing...never an end in sight ;) :crazed:

bandon_29
05-21-2004, 11:45 PM
I say its the best thing i have read about lucas ever, down with the fat bearded B***H!!! he has all the iq of a bag of sweet tarts.i mean come on people lucas designed the dress for padme fireside right? you mean to tell me while he was doing it he didnt picture himself in that dress(god knows how much crisco they would have had to use to get old six chins in there)talikng to anakin going over those lines.....shudder there is an image i hope that stays with ya.and now with his bowel loosening movie thx-1138 comming back out come on here folks let the queen have her way then she will be done for good.:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

stillakid
05-22-2004, 02:47 AM
Sorry for the shouting in my thread I stand corrected. Anyway I am in the military so I am a hater of the media. And it just kills me the way the public is, they hear one bad thing and it dooms people. I am another one of the big star wars fans out there. And i think to dis one of the biggest movies of all time is very petty and spiteful. I just wish this country would keep negative opinions to themselves. Things would be alot better. And to all of those fans out there "may the force be with you."

Does anyone else see the irony above? A guy who joined the military presumably to defend the rights we cherish who openly proclaims that he'd prefer that the media and the general populace should have their opinions silenced (when they conflict with his own). :confused:

While I pretty much agree with the article's points, I do question the point of releasing it and particularly at this time. It would have had a bigger impact, and a better audience if released just after AOTC opened. Or, with some editing, he could have released it just prior to Episode III when the non-fanboy audience will be paying more attention. But right now in 2004 the only people paying any attention at all are freaks like us. Strange.

plasticfetish
05-22-2004, 02:49 AM
IT WAS THE ENTERTAINMENT COMMUNITY CRAPPING ON LUCAS AND HAYDEN CHRISTIANSON.
Well, I think you really need to look at this for what it is. It's not so much "the entertainment community" taking a shot at Lucas, it's just one guy. One person, who's not really credited as being a film critic, but rather the writer of a "commentary." It's just one guy's opinion, and as such, worth only as much as any other single opinion.

Anyway I am in the military so I am a hater of the media ... I just wish this country would keep negative opinions to themselves. Things would be a lot better.
Again, I think you're mixing your feelings about one issue with another. "The media" isn't some great faceless evil monster that lurks about looking for reasons to anger you or trash everything that you love and respect. It's really just made up of people -- like your self probably, that have opinions about things, and want to voice those opinions. I'd hope that the reason you joined the military (besides the pay checks) had something to do with wanting to help to protect the rights of "the media" and all the rest of us to speak our minds. Sometimes and probably often, people are going to have negative things to say. The topic of this thread is basically that you hate this guys commentary, so in effect, you're voicing a negative opinion.

Hey look, we're not robots, we all have feelings and want to communicate how we feel to each other. It's not a bad thing really.


Critics, whether they be music or movie critics, are 99% of the time just plain worth ignoring. They're rather hypocritical too, critiquing subjects most of them have no real prior experience in. Many movie critics have neither written their own movies or screenplays or stood behind a camera and directed one. They simply sit behind a desk or their computer and complain about things.
I know what you're saying, and frankly I don't really care for what this guy's written, but I'm not sure that it's fair to say that just because someone isn't involved professionally with a specific thing (in this case film making) that they can't have an opinion about the results. If Lucas makes a film, he's basically trying to communicate with me, with you, with anyone that'll buy a ticket. He's trying to communicate with a kind of visual story telling, and story telling requires an interaction between the teller and the audience -- good story telling does anyway. It's crazy to think that Lucas (or any film maker) can make a film and not hear back from the audience. It's crazy to think that the only people entitled to voice their opinions are those that are involved in making films. Fact is, what a critic does, is write about films and try to find the most eloquent way possible to communicate just why it is that they do or do not like something. Critics are professional writers. Most film makers are not. The last thing that I'd want to read in the paper when I'm digging around to see if a film is going to be good or not, is some random film crew member's opinion about the film that they'd just worked on.

---

All of that aside, my biggest problem with this guy's "commentary" is that it's completely without constructive value. Fine, review the film once it's been released and give us your take on the thing. But what's the point of this? Mostly it's just boring rehash of a lot of tired old comments, observations and jokes that I've read dozens of times in these forums alone. I'm not saying that I don't agree with him -- heck, in most cases I think he's right, it's just that he's not very original.

So... don't damn the media as a whole just because one writer sucks. Really, the guy's just trying to earn a buck. Some journalist's do it by writing stories that really mean something, and others (like this guy) do it the other way, by writing and rewriting the same old obvious stuff.

plasticfetish
05-22-2004, 03:12 AM
Does anyone else see the irony above?
OK. That's friggin' scary. We're sharing a brain here or something?

elvandrik
05-22-2004, 07:14 AM
Thank you, brothers!!! It's good to know that I'm not the only person who thinks Lucas has definitely lost something over the years. If you don't think that Lucas has totally lost his mind I got three words for you:

JAR JAR BINKS

Dumbest character ever and he still continues to delude himself into believeing that people liked that character. I see him interviewed and he says that he doesn't think people hate JarJar. He thinks that the majority of people like the character. Like who? Incoherent Jamaican 2 year olds who also speak baby talk? Puuh-Leazzzeeee!!

Jay86
05-22-2004, 09:55 AM
Thank you, brothers!!! It's good to know that I'm not the only person who thinks Lucas has definitely lost something over the years. If you don't think that Lucas has totally lost his mind I got three words for you:

JAR JAR BINKS

Dumbest character ever and he still continues to delude himself into believeing that people liked that character. I see him interviewed and he says that he doesn't think people hate JarJar. He thinks that the majority of people like the character. Like who? Incoherent Jamaican 2 year olds who also speak baby talk? Puuh-Leazzzeeee!!What you fail to realize is that George might have come up with the idea for Jar Jar, but it was a team of artists and other people working on Episode 1 who sculpted him into what we saw in the film. I'm not Jar Jar's biggest fan, but just because a few people on a message board dislike the character means nothing. And the whole trend of disliking the character is just that, a trend. One person claims a dislike of a character for some reason or another and others jump on the bandwagon. They're just movies anyway. Another thing is that many people do like the character, and many fans, including people who grew up with the Original Trilogy, love the prequels. I cant begin to count how many men above 30-40 years of age I saw wearing Episode 1 T-shirts last weekend at Disney World (for the first weekend of Star Wars Weekends). Maybe not all of them liked Jar Jar, but what made that event great was that people who just loved the movies were there to have fun and celebrate the movies, reguardless of Jar Jar Binks or not.

And to plasticfetish - I said what I said based on the fact that the guy who wrote that article was attempting to tell Lucas how he could "save" episode 3, when not only has it not even been released but again, as I said, I highly doubt the author of that article has ever been involved in film-making to begin with. Basically its as if a novice is telling a veteran how to go about doing his job. Its completely laughable.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
05-22-2004, 01:58 PM
I don't know why that guy decided to wrte the article now, but oh well. Some people love the film and some hate it, same deal with Hayden's acting. But if it's such a big deal, writing about things you don't like, then why do you do it? Not only that guy, but some people posting in this thread. Everyone knows stillakid doesn't like the prequels, and I can understand that. He's given logical reasons and presented the problem with valid information. Unlike some other people on here, who just start saying "EPISODE I AND II ARE DOO DOO I WANT TO KILL JAR JAR HAYDEN IS STUPID" and the like. Lighten up people. And if it's such a strain to you, then why do you talk about it in the first place?

Kidhuman
05-22-2004, 02:10 PM
Ok, this guy has his opinion and we all have ours, agree or dissagree, he said his peace. ALl that matters is what we think of the movie as individuals. There are plenty of movies I love that got horrible reviews and vise versa. Take it with a grain of salt and move on, these arent the droids were looking for. They will show up in EPIII.

elvandrik
05-22-2004, 02:38 PM
Actually, of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion! It goes without saying. I can accept that you guys like the prequels, but you gotta accept that ALOT (Fans and Non-Fans)of people think they were subpar compared to the OTC. So don't get so bristled and shocked whenthey voice their criticism. Whenyou make a film and release it to the public, you open the door for their criticism. That's how reality works.

Also, Jar Jar is not a stupid character because of the way he looks. The entire concept of Jar Jar is what I hate, and that lucas IS responsible for.

2-1B
05-22-2004, 03:10 PM
The fact that he actually tries to pass off anakin as a divine birth is ludicrous!!! I'm not even religous, but the only other guy I know of who was born without a father was Jesus Christ!! I think lucas is stretching things a bit far by making that comparison.

You shouldn't be so Christocentric. It's not a stretch because Jesus is just one of many divine births reported in various religious myths or accounts.



just think of it this way, there will be one more open seat at the premier of Ep3 for those who are totally stoked about it.

That's great to hear because at next year's midnight showing of E3, I'd like to leave an open seat next to me for my imaginary girlfriend.



While I pretty much agree with the article's points, I do question the point of releasing it and particularly at this time. It would have had a bigger impact, and a better audience if released just after AOTC opened. Or, with some editing, he could have released it just prior to Episode III when the non-fanboy audience will be paying more attention. But right now in 2004 the only people paying any attention at all are freaks like us. Strange.

While I largely disagree with the editorial in question, I do agree with you on this, stillakid. There really is no point in releasing this article now . . . unless he is content with riling up only the most involved of fans. Had he written it post AOTC, it likely would have been lost amidst the other reviews (positive and negative). I think the best time to do it would be early 2005 around the time the E3 hype builds up and before the film is addressed in so many other reviews.

see3poman
05-22-2004, 04:09 PM
I guess if you are a teen or twenty something you might prefer the prequels. They are all action and explosions and CGI. But man how can anyone stomach the acting?
The secret of the OT's sucess and contiued love by fans and critic's is that there was a heart and soul to them. The prequels are just cold cold cold. The interactions of the OT's characters made you care about them and what would happen to them. I didn't care in the least about the characters in the prequels. George Lucas is not the greatest director by far. That's why Empire and Jedi were so good. And I think George must of had help on A New Hope, or it may have been the quality of the cast. To have good acting, you need good actors. MTFBWY

Deoxyribonucleic
05-23-2004, 01:13 AM
That's great to hear because at next year's midnight showing of E3, I'd like to leave an open seat next to me for my imaginary girlfriend.


I'll be there















with bells on! ;)











teehee



OH I ahhhhhhhh mean, She'll be there.















with bells on ;)

Deoxyribonucleic
05-23-2004, 01:39 AM
Hi, my name is Deoxyribonucleic and I don't hate the prequels as much as I let on.

But I still like the OT better ;)

Is abortion a political issue? Because I'd like to talk about.... :eek:

Seriously folks, it seems there's more heated issues in the like/don't like SW prequels than the get/don't get abortions issue? lol lol lol lol

Do we need to take this to the US Supreme Court or what? :glasses:

Tonysmo
05-23-2004, 03:11 AM
I havent read the article, I dont need to, I know what I like. I watched IV again. ahh Fisher is soo smokin hot in that movie.

anyhow, what I did want to ask is.. Deoxy... what in sam hell is that avatar? Is that from that German slicer guy that takes them bodies and makes art? very interesting indeed. Ive read up on his work. Seems he may be taking his um, art.. to the good ol USA..

anyhow, very cool if thats what that is.. the uh, chess player perhaps? if not, Id like to know!

dr_evazan22
05-23-2004, 03:58 AM
I havent read the article, I dont need to, I know what I like. I watched IV again. ahh Fisher is soo smokin hot in that movie.

Good observation, I was thinking the same thing tonight. Just finished watching ANH. How, and why, did she dry her dress off after coming out of the trash compactor? If she had worn the wet dress then the movie's popularity with men 18 - grave would've spiked sharply, I'm sure.


anyhow, what I did want to ask is.. Deoxy... what in sam hell is that avatar?

Excellent question! I've been meaning to ask the same thing myself.

Deoxyribonucleic
05-23-2004, 12:46 PM
anyhow, what I did want to ask is.. Deoxy... what in sam hell is that avatar? Is that from that German slicer guy that takes them bodies and makes art? very interesting indeed. Ive read up on his work. Seems he may be taking his um, art.. to the good ol USA..


Excellent question! I've been meaning to ask the same thing myself.

WOW! Impressive, most impressive! It is indeed the German arteeest/Doctor, Gunther von Hagen. And it is the chess player.

Awesome Tonysmo! :D



sorry to get off topic...now back to our regular scheduled thrashings ;)

2-1B
05-23-2004, 07:49 PM
The Zuckuss guy and the Chess Player are the same corpse ? :confused:

I didn't know that . . .

2-1B
05-23-2004, 07:50 PM
Anyway, back on topic:

I would rather be aborted than be dissatisfied (on the whole) by the prequels.

bigbarada
05-24-2004, 03:18 PM
That's a pretty interesting article and just a few short months ago I would have probably been enraged by this writer's opinions. Nowadays, though, I can agree with his frustration, if not necessarily his proposed "solutions."

Stillakid, you're right about Leigh Brackett, while she wrote the entire first draft of the ESB script by herself, she died shortly thereafter. Lucas, very unhappy with the script, scrapped it completely and had Lawrence Kasdan rewrite the entire movie from scratch. However, as a professional courtesy to the late Mrs. Brackett, Lucas still gave her co-writer credits for the movie. Rest assured, not a single word of her version appears in the ESB we all know and love today.

I've always noticed an interesting trend in the Star Wars films, the more creative control Lucas is given the worse his movies turn out:

- For ANH, he had only minimal control and was under constant threats by the studio to shut him down if he didn't start making a watchable film.

- For ESB, GL gave up almost all creative control to Lawrence Kasdan and Irvin Kershner, he only showed up twice during principal photography shoots.

- In ROTJ, while he still had Kasdan write the script and Richard Marquand direct the film, he was a much more influential presence throughout the filming process. In fact, Lucas took over completely during filming of the Ewok battle.

- TPM, he ran the show completely, from financing every penny to micromanaging (or directing) every single department.

- AOTC, while he consented to allow another writer to help him with the script (whose name escapes me right now), it was still painfully obvious that this was a one-man show.

I recently had the priviledge of taking a class in computer animation (using Maya 5.0) which was taught by a guy who currently works for Digital Domain. When I asked him about Star Wars he said that Lucas has just about lost all of his credibilty in the industry because of the prequels. Sure the Yoda duel scene and the Clone Battle were all really cool, but they are just not enough to salvage what's left of SW's dignity.

It seemed to me, from what my instructor was saying, that Ep1 and Ep2 have become tragic examples of how NOT to make big budget epics. (I'm sure the Matrix series belongs in that category also) The main rumor is that Lucas plans on selling off ILM when he's finished with Ep3 and will probably just slip into obscurity after that.

Keep in mind that these are just opinions and rumors. Personally, I hope the rumors about a TV show are wrong and maybe Lucas will just let it all die after Ep3 is released.

It's more than a little tragic how far things have sunk since the early-1990s. It seemed that just before the Special Editions, fans, the media and Hollywood believed that Lucas was a genius and could do no wrong. There were even the occasional proclamations of Lucas as a diety. Look where we are now, in what was supposed to be the most exicting time of the Saga (with what should have been all of our anticipation of Lucas' triumphant conclusion to his groundbreaking new series). Instead we have bickering, infighting, accusations of disloyalty at the first sign of criticism and people abandoning Star Wars for greater films.

You can't blame it all on overblown expectations, overly critical fans or Hollywood backstabbing (Hollywood has been backstabbing Lucas since 1977). These are all signs that there is something terribly wrong with our beloved saga. I, of all people, hate to admit it; but it's the only way I can let go of the anger and disappointment and just get on with my life.

Droid
05-24-2004, 04:33 PM
Can't we all just get along? I didn't mean to start such a ruckuss. My original point was just that I thought it was stupid for a guy arguing Lucas shouldn't write or direct the movie and that Hayden and Natalie shouldn't be in it now that it is done filming!

I will say that I do not like the prequels as much as the original trilogy. But i talk to children who see the prequels at the same age I saw the original trilogy and they think the prequels are better than the original trilogy. I confess that my problem (and probably many of our problems) is that we grew up and became cynical. We can no longer watch the movies with the same blanket acceptance and amazement we once had. I am certain we would complain about the dialogue from A New Hope like crazy if it was released today (One thing's for sure, we're all gonna be alot thinner.) I love the Ewoks, but I'm sure if Jedi were released today I'd endlessly moan about how teddy bears couldn't defeat the Empire. I would think it was stupid that Luke and Leia are siblings. C-3P0 can be just as annoying as Jar Jar (compare 3P0 in the asteroid field to Jar Jar in the bongo), we just forgive him and love him because he is 3P0. But I accept all of these things because that was the movie and that was Star Wars.

I wish I could watch the prequels as a seven-year-old.

Maybe Star Wars didn't change - maybe we did.

stillakid
05-25-2004, 01:07 AM
Can't we all just get along? I didn't mean to start such a ruckuss. My original point was just that I thought it was stupid for a guy arguing Lucas shouldn't write or direct the movie and that Hayden and Natalie shouldn't be in it now that it is done filming!

I will say that I do not like the prequels as much as the original trilogy. But i talk to children who see the prequels at the same age I saw the original trilogy and they think the prequels are better than the original trilogy. I confess that my problem (and probably many of our problems) is that we grew up and became cynical. We can no longer watch the movies with the same blanket acceptance and amazement we once had. I am certain we would complain about the dialogue from A New Hope like crazy if it was released today (One thing's for sure, we're all gonna be alot thinner.) I love the Ewoks, but I'm sure if Jedi were released today I'd endlessly moan about how teddy bears couldn't defeat the Empire. I would think it was stupid that Luke and Leia are siblings. C-3P0 can be just as annoying as Jar Jar (compare 3P0 in the asteroid field to Jar Jar in the bongo), we just forgive him and love him because he is 3P0. But I accept all of these things because that was the movie and that was Star Wars.

I wish I could watch the prequels as a seven-year-old.

Maybe Star Wars didn't change - maybe we did.

I've vehemently argued against that line of reasoning and will continue to do so. What you're essentially suggesting is that kids are morons who don't know a good story when they see one. You're also suggesting that adults (like me) are entirely unable to see things objectively. I knew as a kid that ANH was great and I look back with my adult eyes and can now express why it is. (for that matter, "we're all gonna be a lot thinner" is a fantastic and funny line...what's the problem with it? :confused: ) On the other hand, I didn't have the benefit of seeing the Prequels as a child so I can only speak hypothetically, but I can review the Prequels with the same standards as I do the Original Trilogy and see why they don't work. I imagine that as a kid, I might have been "wowed" by the pretty pictures for a viewing or two but that desire to become "immersed" in the thing as a hobby most likely wouldn't be there. As a kid in this day and age I'd probably be more like the majority of kids out there and buy into stuff like Pokemon or Harry Potter.

Tonysmo
05-26-2004, 03:23 AM
found this comic strip. its pretty hilarious, Id start from the begining.. but this one of course stands out.

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/?t=archives&date=2002-11-11

enjoy

bigbarada
05-26-2004, 01:22 PM
Why did he mention it being November? Is that when the "hardcore" fanboys start waiting in line? Anyways, I wouldn't necessarily say that the prequels are a joke, there are good movies buried under all that CG and clumsy acting somewhere. I just think it would have taken a more skilled director and writer to bring them out.

A good movie isn't really dependent on your age. The best films cut across all genres (Finding Nemo is a great example of a film made for kids that adults can enjoy also), so it's not really accurate to say that, since we are older now, we can't appreciate these films in the same way.

In any case, just because a movie isn't the greatest film you have ever seen doesn't mean it is necessarily a failure. I get really sick of this "no points for second place" mentality.

If I had to assign a letter grade to the SW films they would go something like this:

ANH A+
ESB A
ROTJ B-
TPM B-
AOTC C+

So as you see, just because I criticize a film doesn't mean I hate it.

JediTricks
05-26-2004, 06:01 PM
Barada, just curious, are you grading the films on your enjoyment or your opinion of their quality?



In any case, just because a movie isn't the greatest film you have ever seen doesn't mean it is necessarily a failure. I get really sick of this "no points for second place" mentality.For me, I do give points to second place films, I enjoy ROTJ for what it is even though it's my least favorite of the OT and I enjoy ID4 even though it's sub-par to many other films in my eyes, but the prequels for me aren't "second place" Star Wars films for me in the overall, they're well lower than that. Nobody said I have to enjoy every SW film, just because the prequels are second place in the Star Wars saga doesn't automatically make them golden in the grand scheme.


I've been watching the Star Trek movie DVDs lately and something that Nick Meyer (director of ST2 & 6, co-writer of ST 2, 4 & 6) has said repeatedly is that he strongly feels art thrives in the face of adversity, that challenges and limitations are often key ingredients to what makes an artist more creative. I think this article sees a lot of problems and puts the blame on every shoulder involved, but misses that some elements that didn't work were CLOSE to working, so in that train of thought, it seems to me the real blame for a lot of the prequels' failures rests on the choice of ineffectual yes-man Rick McCallum as producer. McCallum has stated that he saw his job as being the guy who gets all the roadblocks out of Lucas's way rather than presenting the right kinds of challenges for Lucas and keeping some of Lucas's choices in check. But who brought McCallum in? Lucas of course. What's my point? Lucas should have gotten a different producer, but McCallum should have been a better producer.

stillakid
05-26-2004, 10:09 PM
, it seems to me the real blame for a lot of the prequels' failures rests on the choice of ineffectual yes-man Rick McCallum as producer. McCallum has stated that he saw his job as being the guy who gets all the roadblocks out of Lucas's way rather than presenting the right kinds of challenges for Lucas and keeping some of Lucas's choices in check. But who brought McCallum in? Lucas of course. What's my point? Lucas should have gotten a different producer, but McCallum should have been a better producer.

Maybe. The official definition of "producer" is nebulus at best. In this specific instance it clearly wasn't Rick's job to place artificial roadblocks in the way. I can't say that there has ever been a case in which that would be true. Who would want to purposefully sabotage a major undertaking like this? :confused:

What makes the Prequels such a special case is that George has the financial ability to finance absolutely every aspect of it. He's the penultimate indy filmmaker. It's the creative freedom just about every wanna-be dreams of and aspires to. I guess for me (and many others in this industry town) the frustrating thing is to see how badly GL is squandering this precious and rare opportunity. Sure, naysayers tell us to shut up and enjoy it just because it's George's puppy and it's his right to do what he wants with it. True, but that doesn't mean that just because it's his idea that every decision he makes is a good one. Ask anyone who's ever invented anything and they'll tell you about all the proto-types (read: screwed up versions) that they went through before finding success. George has absolutely no limits and no one to hold him back. More power to him, but with that freedom also should come a little bit of wisdom to realize that brilliance often rises out of adversity. Being told "No!" often forces those who choose to perservere to find another way around the problem, to achieve that which they seek. The ability to throw money at it introduces no creative thought primarily because there is no need for it. So if a movie can be made with the minimum of creativity, just how good do you think it can be? The FX artists were hired to do their part. The actors were hired to do their part. The musicians were hired to do their part. Rick was hired to do his part. Do we blame them for enabling George to do as he wishes? Remember, he's the guy that signs the checks, so it really isn't in their best interest to jeopardize their own well-being just because, in their opinion, George is doing it wrong. It's one thing if this were a military prison and there was abuse of prisoners going on. Then, yeah, somebody should step up to the plate to say something. But these are just popcorn entertainment. Nobody is going to die if it sucks. I guess you have to ask yourself this: Would you stick your neck out and risk your livelihood to save the integrity of Star Wars? Or would you just do the work and collect the check? I suppose if you had pride in what you choose to do for a living you could respectively bow out and go find another film to work on, so that's always an option.

JEDIpartner
05-27-2004, 01:19 PM
I thought it was a good commentary article, it was passionate about it but not ridiculously fanboy-esque. I don't agree with everything the author said, but I definitely feel where he's coming from, and judging from the feedback page on the article, I'd say there are others out there who see it similarly.

The article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4980465
For as much as I have enjoyed AOTC... not so much with TPM, I agree with what he said. These films could have been done MUCH better. I don't think that recasting Anakin or Padme would be necessary. Both actors are quite good when they are given good mater or even bad material but good direction.

bigbarada
05-27-2004, 05:26 PM
Barada, just curious, are you grading the films on your enjoyment or your opinion of their quality?

My grades are based solely on my enjoyment of the films, no other real criteria is involved. It's also based on how often I get the urge to pop the movie into the VCR or DVD player and watch it. For me, films that I truly enjoy are the ones that I never seem to get tired of watching (within reason of course, I'm sure I could learn to hate any movie if I was forced to watch it non-stop). Just for a sense of context I would give FOTR an A-, T2T an A and ROTK would get an A+.

Stillakid-
From what I understand, ILM is the lowest paying of all the big Sp/FX houses, since they primarily rely on talent fresh out of school. The lack of experience allows ILM to pay them around $20K a year for a couple of years, then they will most likely get cut loose before they start asking for a bigger salary. At least that's what I've heard. So, I'm sure that many of those artists are just biding their time until they get a couple years experience under their belt. That kind of supports your notion that these guys are just collecting a paycheck. If no one else was hiring you for lack of experience, then I'm sure any of us would cling pretty hard to whatever job we could get.

JediTricks
05-28-2004, 02:34 AM
Stilla, I must have not made myself clear enough, I'm not talking about McCallum creating artificial roadblocks, I meant he should have presented realistic challenges to Lucas based on what Lucas wanted to do ("we have to present a realistic, exciting, and plot-centered race at this part of the film, if we can't then we shouldn't have it there"), and promote an atmosphere where the weaker aspects of the script or the filming or the editing were presented to Lucas before it was too late to fix them ("these announcer characters are annoying and detract from the film", "Anakin being so happy all the time, saying yippee, and accidentally doing things right doesn't play too well, we need to tighten this up").


"He's the penultimate indy filmmaker."
- Then who's the ultimate? :D

"So if a movie can be made with the minimum of creativity, just how good do you think it can be?"
- Oh, you are getting big points on that line!

"Rick was hired to do his part. Do we blame them for enabling George to do as he wishes?"
- I guess it's just easier to look at the job of Producer in Gary Kurtz's hands and see how much he was able to accomplish working with George as an nearly equal vision in the first film, a counter-balance to Lucas's more left-field concepts (such as whistling through the Death Star corridors).




My grades are based solely on my enjoyment of the films, no other real criteria is involved. Ah, ok. For me, I generally would grade the films on my opinion of their quality, but those grades wouldn't reflect my "popcorn" enjoyment of 'em (how much I like 'em, example, I consider ESB to be the best film, but like ANH the most).

bigbarada
05-28-2004, 03:42 PM
Now that I have given it some more thought, I think I would give both ANH and ESB an A+ for their "popcorn" value, since I really enjoy watching them both. In terms of moviemaking quality, however, ANH wins out over the rest of the saga hands down. For me ANH is the proverbial "yardstick" by which I judge every film I see, even today. Mainly because it embodies everything great about the film industry in one perfect package.

stillakid
05-28-2004, 04:14 PM
Stilla, I must have not made myself clear enough, I'm not talking about McCallum creating artificial roadblocks, I meant he should have presented realistic challenges to Lucas based on what Lucas wanted to do ("we have to present a realistic, exciting, and plot-centered race at this part of the film, if we can't then we shouldn't have it there"), and promote an atmosphere where the weaker aspects of the script or the filming or the editing were presented to Lucas before it was too late to fix them ("these announcer characters are annoying and detract from the film", "Anakin being so happy all the time, saying yippee, and accidentally doing things right doesn't play too well, we need to tighten this up").

Yeah, I see where you're going with that, but again, the "official" role of Producer is ambiguous particularly when you step into the creative aspects of the project. For instance, it would be appropriate in an episodic situation (where the directors rotate episode to episode) for the Producer to step in and (some might say) put a kabash on a creative idea if -- and only if -- it was in conflict with the established style of the show and/or the agreed upon budget. Rarely, if ever, will you see a Producer step over that line and take the directing reins away. That kind of control really doesn't fall into his realm.

You know, I wasn't around the set to see how Kurtz handled the project way back when, but that was a different situation entirely than the one we have today. At the time, Fox was picking up the bill for a project that most people didn't believe in. On a feature, the Producer has more loyalty to the Director than to the studio, but it's still his job to "shepard" all the disparate aspects of production so everyone is on the same page at the end of the day. True, at times that might include on rare occasions bringing a Director and his "vision" back into line. Look at it this way, in the heat of battle (production) the Director is the guy in the trenches with the rest of the combatants (crew). The Producer, in theory, is his right hand man watching over the broad strokes. But again, that doesn't mean it's his job to step in and tell the Director that he's doing something wrong...particularly when the Director also happens to be the guy bankrolling the entire thing. It's a sticky political situation in this case. As we've heard many fanboys proclaim in the past few months, it's George's baby to do with as he likes. True. No arguments there. But this is where Georgy baby had to step up to the plate and give someone like McCallum authority to say something if things didn't appear to be right. Given George's past history of having projects taken away from him, it doesn't seem to be in his nature to want to give up any of that "final word" particularly when he, again, has achieved the level of financial independence that he has. Who knows, may he did give Rick that authority and in that case, you'd be correct in your assertions above. But more likely is the case that George really wasn't interested in hearing any contradictory feedback which puts everyone in the uncomfortable position of either saying "yes George" or just leaving the project altogether. Bottom line: George's fault. He made the rules.



"He's the penultimate indy filmmaker."
- Then who's the ultimate? :D
Hmm, good question. I'd willingly say Spielberg, or Scorcese, or god forbid, Rodriquez. Maybe Michael Mann. Michael Moore comes to mind. Coen brothers. Errol Morris. All are valid choices for different reasons.


"So if a movie can be made with the minimum of creativity, just how good do you think it can be?"
- Oh, you are getting big points on that line!
Thanks man! Peace out. :smoker:

JediTricks
05-30-2004, 10:16 PM
Earlier today, I came across a quote from Nick Meyer (whom I mentioned previously in this thread) that I felt had to be stated here:

Art thrives on restrictions and on things left out, paintings do not move, music has no image, it is in every case the imaginitive participation of the reader, of the viewer, of the audience that completes the circle that makes the art.I think Lucas with the prequels, by removing as many restrictions as possible, by making sure he left nothing out, has left too little to the audience to create for themselves that allows them to enrich the movie they are seeing and by doing so robs the film of the "soul" it would otherwise have.

bigbarada
06-01-2004, 02:21 PM
I think Lucas with the prequels, by removing as many restrictions as possible, by making sure he left nothing out, has left too little to the audience to create for themselves that allows them to enrich the movie they are seeing and by doing so robs the film of the "soul" it would otherwise have.

That would explain why Boba Fett has a bigger fanbase than any of the main characters. It's the mystery (combined with a truly amazing design) that sparked the audiences' imagination. We're even seeing that principle put into practice with the prequels (with the unusually high level of fan interest in characters like Darth Maul and Aayla Secura), when the fan interest is extremely disproportionate to the amount of character development shown onscreen. (although Hasbro is doing a great job of killing off interest in these nominal characters by oversaturating the market with too much product)

I'm pretty much convinced that the Star Wars phenomenon wasn't a product of the main characters or storyline, it was created almost completely by the incredible amount of detail that went into the production design of each film. Essentially allowing viewers to always see something new even after watching the movies 100 times.

I think the only true test of the Prequels will be the level of fan interest in 2015 (ten years after Ep3). Only then will we know if Lucas succeeded in starting a second phenomenon.

stillakid
06-01-2004, 06:04 PM
I think the only true test of the Prequels will be the level of fan interest in 2015 (ten years after Ep3). Only then will we know if Lucas succeeded in starting a second phenomenon.


Oh, we already know that he did that. Except that it isn't the phenomenon that he was hoping for. ;)

bigbarada
06-02-2004, 12:22 PM
Oh, we already know that he did that. Except that it isn't the phenomenon that he was hoping for. ;)

Unfortunately, I think you're right. :(

So, here's an interesting scenario which is related to this thread: if George Lucas came to you back in Summer 2002 and asked you "What do I need to do with Ep3 in order to save the franchise?" What would you tell him?

stillakid
06-02-2004, 06:12 PM
Unfortunately, I think you're right. :(

So, here's an interesting scenario which is related to this thread: if George Lucas came to you back in Summer 2002 and asked you "What do I need to do with Ep3 in order to save the franchise?" What would you tell him?


:D Maybe that should be next week's poll question.

First off, I'd tell him that the franchise has already been compromised. There's no "saving" it per se. At least there isn't anything he could do with Episode III independently that could "save" it. But a good start would be hiring someone like Frank Darabont, for instance, to come in and try to make sense out of what Episodes I and II coughed out and mold Episode III into something entertaining and comprehensible.

If money were no object, I'd tell George to start over. Just toss out I and II and start over. Scribble all of his notes on some paper and hand it off to a qualified writer. Go through the normal process of rewrites and reviews until somebody other than him is satisfied (honestly satisfied). Then go make the movies over again using real sets when possible and using CG only when necessary. It's a tool to be used only when needed, just like Steadicam or dissolves, jump cuts, or slow motion. He could direct them if he wished. He's not so bad when he has a good script to work from. Graffiti and Star Wars ANH prove that. But it's that foundation that he needs help with. Without a solid base to build on, everything else will fail.

bigbarada
06-03-2004, 06:50 PM
I was kind of going with scrapping Ep1 and 2 completely and making a single, stand-alone film which would cover the entire prequel plot within 2 hours. After seeing Ep2 a few times, I started to notice how unnecessary certain sequences were. For instance, the speeder chase through Coruscant. So I'm thinking that GL is trying to fatten up a pretty simple story with "thrilling" fluff. It's why we got a 13 minute Podrace in Ep1, he was stalling to make the story seem longer than it actually was.

Essentially we have a basic plot, barely long enough to fill a 10 minute prologue, being stretched to fit over three 2-hour+ films. So redo the entire story in one film.

That's my simplest solution to the problem. My other solution requires building a time machine. :D

stillakid
06-04-2004, 12:25 AM
That's my simplest solution to the problem. My other solution requires building a time machine. :D


I think #2 has a better chance of happening. :D

JON9000
06-04-2004, 12:13 PM
If I had one wish, I think I would just ask for more compelling drama. I think the action pieces in Eps I & II are just fine.

Example of Bad Drama: Anakin and Padme- Anakin is in love with Padme, Padme warms to Anakin. Anakin is forbidden to indulge in sensual pleasure as a Jedi, and Padme is a career gal. They have nice boring sequences to explain this.

Everybody says this stuff is boring, but why? I do not believe it is simply because it is "lovey-dovey" and not all action, rather, I think it is because it is just not compelling as drama. Most of us are aware that teenage love is much more turbulent and passionate than what we saw in the film. It is the love "story" that falls on its face. (the lack of chemistry between the actors is another reason).

So- how to make this love story compelling? Go PG-13 and allow the kids to go for it by the fire. Padme gets knocked up and the ugly consequences follow. Anakin fears Obi-wan will find out and he will get booted. Padme gets mad, gives Anakin the boot and hangs out with some other guy. Anakin gets jealous. New guy (planted by Palpatine) Padme is with goes Carlo on her while anakin saves the universe. Anakin goes Sonny and kills him. Padme curses him and goes off and gets in accident. Anakin thinks she is dead but she lives long enough to deliver. Obi-wan finds out about the kids and boots Anakin from the Jedi. Anakin goes to Palpatine and viola- we have the dark side- and a halfway dramatic rise of Vader (at least I think so).

This is a long way of saying I love the action but the drama stinks because Lucas wants to make animated features appropraite for 7 year olds.

2-1B
06-06-2004, 01:24 AM
Jon,
when you say that Ani should go Sonny on the new guy, does that include throwing an incredibly fake movie punch which misses the guy by several inches ? ;)

2-1B
06-06-2004, 01:32 AM
That's my simplest solution to the problem. My other solution requires building a time machine. :D

Why ? :confused:

So you can go back in time to erase all the positive posts you made about the prequels which you are now so intent on critiquing ?

Well, the old forums are gone so at least part of that solution has come to fruition. ;)

bigbarada
06-06-2004, 11:49 PM
Why ? :confused:

So you can go back in time to erase all the positive posts you made about the prequels which you are now so intent on critiquing ?

Well, the old forums are gone so at least part of that solution has come to fruition. ;)

I know I was one of the primary prequel defenders in the past, but recently I've been rethinking much of my staunch, unwaivering support of Lucas. A lot of it was sparked by Peter Jackson's work on LOTR, but mostly it was just the realization that Lucas' theories of filmmaking are a little outdated and his skills are more than a little rusty.

Basically, in my mind, the prequels are not standing up to the test of time. In other words, the more time that goes by, the less I consider them to be a part of the Star Wars saga.

I don't foresee Ep3 changing that.

2-1B
06-07-2004, 03:19 AM
Yeah, that's basically how I feel about LOTR . . . I liked it at first but seeing how so many people practically masturbate in describing how good it is, I'm rather put off by it now.

JON9000
06-07-2004, 02:15 PM
Jon,
when you say that Ani should go Sonny on the new guy, does that include throwing an incredibly fake movie punch which misses the guy by several inches ? ;)

lol

Maybe Coppola can go back and digitally alter the punch to make it connect better! After all, he and Lucas are old buddies!

stillakid
06-07-2004, 05:59 PM
Yeah, that's basically how I feel about LOTR . . . I liked it at first but seeing how so many people practically masturbate in describing how good it is, I'm rather put off by it now.


I guess I should feel proud that I never felt that urge to Fansturbate over either the Prequels or LOTR. :D

JediTricks
06-07-2004, 07:58 PM
I was kind of going with scrapping Ep1 and 2 completely and making a single, stand-alone film which would cover the entire prequel plot within 2 hours. After seeing Ep2 a few times, I started to notice how unnecessary certain sequences were. For instance, the speeder chase through Coruscant. So I'm thinking that GL is trying to fatten up a pretty simple story with "thrilling" fluff. It's why we got a 13 minute Podrace in Ep1, he was stalling to make the story seem longer than it actually was.

Essentially we have a basic plot, barely long enough to fill a 10 minute prologue, being stretched to fit over three 2-hour+ films. So redo the entire story in one film.

That's my simplest solution to the problem. My other solution requires building a time machine. :D
I think you are right. To some degree, I think a filmmaker has the right to pad his film this way, but somehow when Lucas does it with all these CGI tricks and has it go on and on ad nauseum it weighs the whole picture down. I've never felt TPM was necessary to the saga in any way at all, the film has almost no major events and the ones that survive could have been explained in AOTC in the opening crawl or with a few lines of dialogue at some point in the film (like, we didn't need to see the Imperial Senate to know something major had gone down when Palpatine disbanded it in ANH).


JON9000, you ask an interesting question with "Everybody says this stuff is boring, but why?" I think the reason the love sequences of AOTC don't work aren't because they're lovey-dovey, but because Lucas puts them at the forefront of the characters' troubles and stops their other issues in the film so they can hash out their relationship. Han & Leia build their love onscreen while working on their real problems like being swallowed by giant asteroid slugs or having the ship break down while being chased by Imperial forces - they don't put their lives on hold so they can whine about how their love is forbidden. Plus, I think Lucas just had no idea of what these characters were supposed to be thinking when he put those words into their mouths, he gives them this selfish, angst-ridden, teenage crush-love that just isn't feeling honest or truly dramatic beyond the Dawson's Creek BS writing (not to mention he gives absolutely no foundation to this romance).

JON9000
06-08-2004, 11:15 AM
I think the reason the love sequences of AOTC don't work aren't because they're lovey-dovey, but because Lucas puts them at the forefront of the characters' troubles and stops their other issues in the film so they can hash out their relationship.

Yeah, that's certainly a fair criticism. By the time we get to Naboo, we are in the middle of the movie and ready to get things moving. Actually, if you added up those scenes, their actual time is relatively short, but they seem to drag on forever becuase we want to get back to Obi-wan. Sadly, unless something happens to seriously juice up this romance, assuming it causes Anakin's downfall, it will greatly handicap the main dramatic thrust of the story arc. If we don't buy the love story, the downfall becomes less tragic.

bigbarada
06-08-2004, 12:52 PM
The love story in AOTC was dramatic cyanide. Anakin and Padme essentially took a vacation from the plot so they could fall in love and they drove the movie to a screaching halt every time they were on screen together. There was no chemistry at all between the actors and no logical reason for these two people to actually fall in love (apart from physical lust). On top of that, their "love dialogue" sometimes felt like Lucas had just spliced together two completely separate conversations. But that was a problem throughout the movie, just like Obi-Wan and Jango's conversation:

OB1: "Your clones are very impressive."
Jango: "I'm just a working man trying to make my way in the universe."

While my quotes aren't word for word (I haven't watched the movie in over a year), Jango's line doesn't logically follow Obi-Wan's. It's like they're having two separate conversations.

stillakid
06-09-2004, 12:44 AM
The love story in AOTC was dramatic cyanide. Anakin and Padme essentially took a vacation from the plot so they could fall in love and they drove the movie to a screaching halt every time they were on screen together. There was no chemistry at all between the actors and no logical reason for these two people to actually fall in love (apart from physical lust). On top of that, their "love dialogue" sometimes felt like Lucas had just spliced together two completely separate conversations. But that was a problem throughout the movie, just like Obi-Wan and Jango's conversation:

OB1: "Your clones are very impressive."
Jango: "I'm just a working man trying to make my way in the universe."

While my quotes aren't word for word (I haven't watched the movie in over a year), Jango's line doesn't logically follow Obi-Wan's. It's like they're having two separate conversations.


Yes, exactly. In some other Thread, I'm getting lambasted for suggesting that there are absolutely problems in the films and that anyone who doesn't see them either can't (for a variety of educational issues) or won't (for fandom blindness issues). But your explanation above is irrefutable. AOTC would have been at least twice as good had the Anakin/Padme love story made any sense...I mean any sense whatsoever. How anyone could see the same movie I did and believe that that relationship worked is beyond me. Then how anyone can watch those scenes and still thoroughly enjoy the film actually frightens me. Sure, there are a few other elements scattered throughout the 2 hours that might be cool to drool over for the 2 minutes they're onscreen, but having to crawl through that other tripe is nearly unbearable. One of the excuses made in the past to justify the mess is that Star Wars was never meant to be a "serious" movie series. It was meant to be corny. :rolleyes: Oh brother. There's a definite distinction between purposeful corny (like Batman: The Movie from the 1960s) and unintentionally bad corny, like the love story in AOTC. JediTricks summed it up best with his comparison between the OT Solo/Organa affair and the Anakin/Padme disaster. Had Han and Leia's story been this bad it wouldn't really have mattered much being a rather unimportant side story. But the Anakin/Padme thing is presumably one of the lynchpins of the entire saga. It simply has to work or the reason for Darth Vader just doesn't exist.

JediTricks
06-09-2004, 11:54 PM
On top of that, their "love dialogue" sometimes felt like Lucas had just spliced together two completely separate conversations. But that was a problem throughout the movie, just like Obi-Wan and Jango's conversation:

OB1: "Your clones are very impressive."
Jango: "I'm just a working man trying to make my way in the universe."

While my quotes aren't word for word (I haven't watched the movie in over a year), Jango's line doesn't logically follow Obi-Wan's. It's like they're having two separate conversations.You make a good point there, I don't think I've seen too many people post that on the forums before (if ever) though I bet many folks have thought it (certainly I have). I think Lucas was trying to sound enigmatic and mysterious and dramatically blustery without doing any of the leg-work such as giving the set-up and exposition some solid layering (this could have also been sidestepped by a director who motivated the emotional context of the scene better for his actors, but that's not who Lucas is). In real life, I think most of Ani's conversations on Naboo would have been met with quizical stares or been largely ignored as left-field gibberish. In TPM, I think there's less of this problem and the stuff that is there like Jar Jar talking with Amidala is more the victim of editing.

I can't imagine how Lucas will approach this in Ep 3, but I also can't imagine how it will bridge the gap in this category between the PT and the OT. It's not like we see Vader go off on a tear throwing a tantrum in the OT spouting nonsense, almost every action he takes is set up and explained immediately if not beforehand.

bigbarada
06-10-2004, 11:52 AM
In real life, I think most of Ani's conversations on Naboo would have been met with quizical stares or been largely ignored as left-field gibberish.

:D

Now that would have added a fun dynamic to the "love story." :cool:

JediTricks
06-10-2004, 09:12 PM
HA!!! Every insane Ani-outburst would be met with the "what the f-?!?" look Leia gave Luke in the detention cell or the "huh???" that Luke responded with. :D

PADME: Ani, our love is forbidden, I must represent my planet in the galactic senate.
ANAKIN: It's all Obi-Wan's fault! I would be taller if not for him. Here, let me use my Jedi powers to lift some fruit above your table during dinner.
PADME: ... um... what? Anyway, we each have our duties and I'm clearly too easily swayed by the snap-judgements created by my inexperienced emotional state to start a relationship with you.
ANAKIN: I hate them all! It's like my head is on fire, I can feel it burning!!!
PADME: ... ohhhhhhkay then. Check please!

2-1B
06-11-2004, 03:54 AM
Ummm, bigB ? :confused:

Obi-Wan also said "You must be very proud" and THEN Jango said the part about being a "simple man."

That's fine if you can't quote it exactly . . . but your argument was made based on a piece of dialogue while omitting an important part of it.

The way you quoted it, of course it does not make any sense. :rolleyes:


One of the excuses made in the past to justify the mess is that Star Wars was never meant to be a "serious" movie series. It was meant to be corny. :rolleyes: Oh brother.

Yep, it certainly was. I've mentioned in the past that Insider interview with Hayden Christensen in which his eyebrows raised at the dialogue in the love scenes. He asked Lucas about it and Georgie said it's meant to be that way. Like it or not, George knew it was corny. Maybe he wanted it to be that way or maybe it's because he's a bad writer but at least he knew what he had when he started. ;)

stillakid
06-11-2004, 08:42 AM
Yep, it certainly was. I've mentioned in the past that Insider interview with Hayden Christensen in which his eyebrows raised at the dialogue in the love scenes. He asked Lucas about it and Georgie said it's meant to be that way. Like it or not, George knew it was corny. Maybe he wanted it to be that way or maybe it's because he's a bad writer but at least he knew what he had when he started. ;)


I was just thinkin', there's that other thread that asked what we might consider telling Lucas to do with Episode III to "save" the franchise...it occurred to me that number one on the list would be for George to set aside all ego and submit to a no-hold barred Q&A from fans like us. Not only would we get to see if he "meant" to do what ended up on screen, but he would have the opportunity to explain precisely why and what he thought was supposed to be achieved by it. Hayden has a lot of company in that raised eyebrow crowd and George should have taken heed when initially questioned.

2-1B
06-11-2004, 01:39 PM
I believe George thought of that dialogue as being in the vein of old '30s serials . . . damn, I wish I could remember exactly where I read it so I could point you to the article.

That's why when people criticize the love dialogue as being a Dawson's Creek-ish deal, I don't really consider it valid because as far as I can tell, Dawson's Creek is corny in a much different way. :D

bigbarada
06-11-2004, 03:11 PM
Ummm, bigB ? :confused:

Obi-Wan also said "You must be very proud" and THEN Jango said the part about being a "simple man."

That's fine if you can't quote it exactly . . . but your argument was made based on a piece of dialogue while omitting an important part of it.

The way you quoted it, of course it does not make any sense. :rolleyes:


:o

Whoops! I knew I was missing a piece of dialogue somewhere in there. However, Jango's line still doesn't fit Obi-Wan's comment very well. There are other examples of jilted dialogue throughout the movie, but that was the first one I noticed upon my initial viewing of the film. I still think it is the most standout example of some of the scripting problems in the film. I'd really have too watch the movie again before I tried to pull up some other examples.

2-1B
06-12-2004, 01:02 AM
bigB, I think it's neat little piece of dialogue. :)

Obi-Wan tells Jangers that he "must be very proud" so Fett retorts with a low key "I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." He is downplaying his pride and faking modesty because he isn't really a simple man trying to make his way . . . he's in pretty deep with some shady characters.

JediTricks
06-12-2004, 04:38 AM
I believe George thought of that dialogue as being in the vein of old '30s serials . . . damn, I wish I could remember exactly where I read it so I could point you to the article.

That's why when people criticize the love dialogue as being a Dawson's Creek-ish deal, I don't really consider it valid because as far as I can tell, Dawson's Creek is corny in a much different way. :D
I don't buy that "it's from the serials" excuse even a little bit. The serials were cheesy, but they never had anything remotely like this for the love scenes, the serials Lucas watched were generally made for kids and the kids didn't want anywhere near that much of the "mushy stuff" (as Han might say). Any romance dialogue was watery and fast-paced and mostly was the girl going ga-ga over the hero.

stillakid
06-12-2004, 10:52 AM
I don't buy that "it's from the serials" excuse even a little bit. The serials were cheesy, but they never had anything remotely like this for the love scenes, the serials Lucas watched were generally made for kids and the kids didn't want anywhere near that much of the "mushy stuff" (as Han might say). Any romance dialogue was watery and fast-paced and mostly was the girl going ga-ga over the hero.


Yeah, you know, if Lucas indeed did intend the Prequels to come off as ultra-cheese which may be the case, what was the justification? :confused: The OT films were nothing at all like this in tone nor specifics. I don't get it. What's going through that mind of his? :beard: :confused:

2-1B
06-12-2004, 02:00 PM
I might be misquoting in using the term "serials" - maybe he was talking more about general '30s cinema. I can't recall. Either way, I have no opinion on the comparison because I've never seen any of these old works in question.

Ehhh, I think there is loads of cheese in that Han/Leia relationship.
"She expressed her true feellings for me" is cringeworthy to me, the way Ford delivers that line.

stillakid
06-12-2004, 09:52 PM
I might be misquoting in using the term "serials" - maybe he was talking more about general '30s cinema. I can't recall. Either way, I have no opinion on the comparison because I've never seen any of these old works in question.

Ehhh, I think there is loads of cheese in that Han/Leia relationship.
"She expressed her true feellings for me" is cringeworthy to me, the way Ford delivers that line.


Yeah, maybe, but the context in which he delivers that line is waaaaayyyyy different than the intentionally sappy "by the fire" come-on lines that ooze out of Anakin and Padme's mouths. Han was always a smart-*** and fairly irreverent. Had he even attempted to get "serious" for the delivery of that line you speak of, you might have a point. But it's supposed to be delivered in that cocky Solo sort of way.

Although, you should have instead brought up the line in the Falcon when he's puttin' the moves on Leia and says, "I'm nice men." lol I've always thought that there is no greater entertainment than watching another guy try to put the moves on some impressionable chick. They (we) have to be so transparent yet for some reason, sometimes, they fall for it. I'd put Anakin in that same category except that I don't think that he was putting on some sappy act just to get in Padme's pants the way other guys use the system. No, Anakin really is whacked enough to believe that crap coming out of his mouth. If he hadn't gone all "Vader" on the galaxy, no doubt he would have wound up being a camp-counselor, running a Youth For Christ Jamboree, or a YEAH GOD! convention at the ballpark. I'm sure that every chance he got, Anakin was flipping on Dr. Phil to find out how to be a better man. :rolleyes: What a p_ssy.

2-1B
06-13-2004, 01:50 AM
See, I love "I'm nice men." To me that's an awesome line with awesome delivery. That's the cockiness I love to see from Solo. The "true feelings" line just feels goofy to me. :)

Now as for Anakin, yes he is wacky and that's probably part of the reason why it doesn't bother me like it does others. I don't see his obsession with Padme as being particularly healthy in the first place . . . and Padme was hesitant about falling in love with him.

stillakid
06-13-2004, 11:40 AM
\ . . and Padme was hesitant about falling in love with him.

Being that you are one of the few I "know" who actually enjoy this part of the story, I was hoping you might elaborate on the topic you mention above and explain to me exactly why she fell in love with Anakin? Certainly if she had an attraction (sexually) to him in TPM, that would be just a little bit creepy. But then she hadn't seen him since and suddenly he's been through puberty and doesn't look nor sound anything like the TPM version in voice, tone, or emotion. I just don't get it and I'm dying for someone to help explain it to me.

bigbarada
06-14-2004, 12:33 PM
Well, I decided to watch AOTC again after misquoting it earlier, I was hoping that the film itself might actually grow on me over time. However, I think, now that the newness has worn off, I actually like this movie less than I did before.

Even though I tried my best to accept it as it was, Anakin and Padme's love story was cringe inducingly bad in many areas. If we were to assume that this wasn't actually a movie and we were watching two real human beings interacting with each other, then it would appear that there is no healthy basis for a real relationship here. Anakin, who at times seemed bipolar and at other times seemed schizophrenic, is not in love with Padme. As Caesar mentioned earlier, his fixation borders on obsession.

The only logical reasoning I could come up with for Padme falling in love with Anakin (with my rationalization meter pegged out), would be that maybe men on Naboo are so immasculated from being led around by teenage girls all the time that they have no passion for anything. Anakin seems to be passionate about everything, if he was making a hot fudge sundae he would be passionate about it. So maybe that spark of actual humanity and virility is what attracted Padme to Anakin.

Again, I'm deliberately rationalizing the story. Even if Padme was attracted to Anakin for his unstable emotions, it's doubtful that she would have stuck with him after he slaughtered the Tusken camp (unless she thought he was lying?). But then again, considering the patronizing and condescending way in which her people tolerate the Gungans, maybe hatred of non-human races is bred into them. Even Padme seems to talk down to Jar Jar every time she interacts with him.

Overall, though, when the credits rolled on AOTC, I had trouble feeling warm and fuzzy about their marriage. I could only think to myself, "I have a bad feeling about this." If that was Lucas' actual intention, then he succeeded in that sense. However, if he was trying to make "his Titanic" (as Natalie Portman put it), then he failed miserably.

JediTricks
06-14-2004, 08:17 PM
BB, I can't even make it past the first scenes of the film, the acting at the beginning with Typho is cringe-enducingly bad, and the work in Padme's apartment always gets the axe from me so I never really get to the love stuff. I cannot sit through this film and I can still sit through ROTJ without fast-forwarding, so it definitely gives me worry about Ep 3's quality.

bigbarada
06-15-2004, 02:55 PM
I never understood the argument that since this is essentially a Saturday morning kids' film, then the love scenes are supposed to be wooden and awkward. The romantic interest between Flint and Lady Jaye in the old 1980s GI Joe cartoon was much more convincing than anything in AOTC.

If this was indeed meant to be nothing more than a live-action kids' cartoon, then why even have the love scenes at all? Don't kids usually hate that kind of stuff?

Even after I first bought the DVD, there were certain scenes that I couldn't sit through again. In fact, I think last weekend was the very first time I have just pressed play on my DVD and attempted to watch the entire movie straight through. Mostly I used to just skip right ahead to Mace's "This party's over!" line, but that scene soon became annoying (I can't stomach watching the incompetent Jedi getting their heads handed to them by a bunch of Battle Droids, especially after seeing what a joke the droid army was in Ep1, so much for the Jedi being the greatest warriors in the galaxy) Now I just skip right to the Clone War battle and Yoda's fight scene.

Anakin's one-on-one duel with Dooku is another scene that I quickly got sick of. The strobe light effect of just seeing the lightsaber glow on their faces puts this in the running for crappiest lightsaber duel of any Star Wars film.

stillakid
06-15-2004, 03:03 PM
Anakin's one-on-one duel with Dooku is another scene that I quickly got sick of. The strobe light effect of just seeing the lightsaber glow on their faces puts this in the running for crappiest lightsaber duel of any Star Wars film.

Aside from the obviousness of the "coolness" factor George tried to artificially inject into the fight (I mean, c'mon, Anakin for no reason cuts the big cable on the floor. How come?), that fight has bothered me from day one. Anakin is a lot of hot air all throughout the film and is supposed to be far and away a better Jedi than any of the others. It is this superiority that he realizes is true that triggers his arrogance and supposed hatred of Obi Wan for "holding him back." Yet during this fight with Dooku, Dooku barely breaks a sweat. Obi Wan gave Dooku more a run for his money than pretty boy mumbler over there. If Anakin was to have lost his arm and that fight then so be it. But Lucas failed to use that fight to his fullest advantage in illustrating the latent power that Anakin has and why he is justified in being the bi-polar whiner that he is throughout the story.

Jay86
06-15-2004, 03:19 PM
(I can't stomach watching the incompetent Jedi getting their heads handed to them by a bunch of Battle Droids, especially after seeing what a joke the droid army was in Ep1, so much for the Jedi being the greatest warriors in the galaxy)

Anakin's one-on-one duel with Dooku is another scene that I quickly got sick of. The strobe light effect of just seeing the lightsaber glow on their faces puts this in the running for crappiest lightsaber duel of any Star Wars film.
The Jedi actually did more than just stand there and get shot. If you really look close and watch them some of the Jedi in the background they do some pretty neat stuff, flips and then stabbing the droids with the sabers and so on. And your arguement that the droid army is incompetant is in itself not very valid because the droid army in Episode 1 consisted of nothing but Battle Droids, while in Episode 2 the arena may have contained some Battle Droids, but there were a fair number of Destroyer's and Super Battle droids as well, which are both highly advanced over the BD's. Both of which can shoot much faster than a regular Battle Droid with one semi-automatic blaster. Plus, once you figure in the fact that the droids enterred the arena from many different directions, coupled with the fact that its probably harder to block blaster fire when its more than one blast thats coming at you, well that would probably be a pretty tough challenge to handle. Try picking up a baseball bat and having you friends throw baseballs at you all at the same time (as hard as they can throw mind you) from all different directions.....I guarantee you'll get hit many a number of times, unless you run away or something...though you'd still get hit.....

I didnt mind the duel, the only thing I didnt get was why didnt Anakin scream like Luke did when he got his arm chopped off? I mean Luke's hand was chopped off and he screamed holy hell, yet Anakins arm gets chopped off and Anakin looked like he could've cared less.....hopefully in a few years they'll release Episode 2 again and put a scream in there or something. Other than that, Anakin's actions kind of served of his character. He rushed into battle, which was his first mistake, thinking he could easily defeat Dooku. The part where he saved Obi-Wan was cool, but the duel-saber fight should have lasted longer if you ask me. And the part where he (Anakin) cuts out the lights was cool, at least I thought, because it was a rather foolish move on Anakins behalf because he just dug himself a deeper hole by not being able to see very well (it would have been a good idea, only Anakin was too eager to do well as a Jedi and thinking he was some "almighty" warrior and his trying to prove so only gave him negative results, which were shown).