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Kidhuman
07-02-2004, 10:51 AM
...the Falcon. Was he that dead set on Luke at the time? The force was all powerful with him, so why didnt he sense the Falcon coming in. Unless Han came out of hyperspace locked onto the TIE's he should of sensed it coming in.

stillakid
07-02-2004, 01:19 PM
...the Falcon. Was he that dead set on Luke at the time? The force was all powerful with him, so why didnt he sense the Falcon coming in. Unless Han came out of hyperspace locked onto the TIE's he should of sensed it coming in.


The answer to this fits nicely with my theory that the Force is an "ocean-like" energy field which surrounds everything and is everything. Funnily enough, just like Yoda says. Anyway, when a person (or creature) taps into the Force, it creates waves, like ripples on water. The bigger the "use," the bigger the ripples. The bigger the ripples, the farther they go, which is how someone on one side of the galaxy could theoretically "feel" someone on the other. But as with Old Ben hiding in the smuggling compartment, being a long time "Force user," he wasn't using the Force at that moment but was sending off just enough "current" that a guy like Vader could pick it up. Sort of like needing a powerful telescope to detect extremely weak radio waves.

Anyhow, the point is that Vader can't detect the Falcon because neither Han nor Chewy were Force users. Until there is someone on that ship that can "use" the Force (as in ROTJ), it is a neglible blip if that on the radar.

JediTricks
07-03-2004, 01:30 AM
Stilla, it fits my theory too though, the one that says that Force-users can only sense others when they are familiar with them in some way (this is different from Force-viewing, which is another topic altogether). Why didn't Vader sense Luke on the Falcon before he sensed Obi-Wan in the Death Star? Why didn't Vader sense Luke in the X-Wing before Obi-Wan came to the boy? Why didn't the Emperor sense Luke's presence on Endor? Why didn't Qui-Gon sense Maul on Tatooine or Naboo? Why didn't Dooku sense Obi-Wan lurking on Geonosis?


Anyway, on the Force-viewing issue, like how Luke could see the future by using the Force and such, I think Vader simply wasn't looking for it, he was concentrating on splashing that last annoying Rebel rather than trying to see what the Force could show him about the future. Had Vader been still, calm, open to the suggestion while at peace as Yoda said, perhaps he could have foreseen the attack, but he was intent on swatting that one last fly and taking it home. Perhaps the Force was trying to subconciously suggest to Vader that the sneak attack was coming, but Vader wasn't listening since he was too focused on what was ahead of him rather than what was above and behind him. Finally, the attack wasn't on Vader's TIE itself, but on the TIEs of Vader's wingmen, so perhaps the Force used that as a loophole. ;)


BTW, when the Falcon came blazing in to save the day, did Han just use the light of the star to hide himself, or did he drop out of hyperspace at the last possible moment to maximize the surprise of the attack? (The latter would add credence to Solo's claims of captaining ability.)

Ji'dai
07-03-2004, 09:32 AM
BTW, when the Falcon came blazing in to save the day, did Han just use the light of the star to hide himself, or did he drop out of hyperspace at the last possible moment to maximize the surprise of the attack? (The latter would add credence to Solo's claims of captaining ability.)


Since the Death Star attack was based on actual aerial dogfights, a veteran fighter pilot like Han would use any advantage he could get - clouds, the sun, whatever. I think Han was using the star to shield his arrival. I doubt the Falcon did a hyperspace jump since the Death Star was within firing range of the Yavin moon, too close for lightspeed travel.

stillakid
07-03-2004, 12:21 PM
Why didn't Vader sense Luke on the Falcon before he sensed Obi-Wan in the Death Star?

Why didn't Vader sense Luke in the X-Wing before Obi-Wan came to the boy?

Why didn't the Emperor sense Luke's presence on Endor?

Why didn't Qui-Gon sense Maul on Tatooine or Naboo?

Why didn't Dooku sense Obi-Wan lurking on Geonosis?
There are simple answers to all of them:

Vader couldn't sense Luke because Luke wasn't a Force user yet. His "power" wasn't strong enough to cause even a faint ripple, therefore no Force user would have been able to detect Luke, even Old Ben and he was sitting right next to him.

Vader couldn't sense Luke in the X-Wing because Luke wasn't using the Force yet. Spirit Ben inspired Luke to, well, let go and take that leap of faith that this "Force" thing works. At that moment, Luke became a Force user and thus triggered ripples which Vader could then detect. If your theory of recognition was true, then Vader still wouldn't have been able to detect Luke in the trench because he had no way to "know" who was driving in front of him. The only thing that did change was Luke's willingness to "let go."

This one I'll admit is a stretch of my own making, but it fits like a glove. The Emperor couldn't sense Luke on Endor because he's a bold faced liar. He never could really use the Force. For all his gloating about "foreseeing the future" it was all hot air from a consummate politician. That's why nobody could "sense" Palpatine at any point. That's why he needed Maul and Dooku...Force users to do his dirty work for him. For Palps to use the Force would make him "detectable." He knew this so he steered clear of needing to use the Force. ---- Wait, I can hear it now. What about the blue lightning? Okay, here's where it gets tricky, but nothing else makes much more sense...Palps was angry at that moment. Not just a little. A LOT! He knew how to use the Force, but he had never actually done it...at least not enough to draw attention to himself. At that moment, that much anger, fear, and aggression took hold of him and manifested itself as this blue lightning. He lost control completely. This is supported by the way Vader is able to pick the guy up and toss him while Palps is sort of "stuck" in that pose with lightning flying everywhere.

Qui Gon sensing Maul. Who said he didn't?

Dooku sensing Obi Wan. Whe said he didn't? To even attempt to comprehend this one, we have to first realize that Palps grand scheme was convoluted at best. In actuality it all worked out in the end because of happenstance and sheer dumb luck, not because he planned it that way. So with that in mind, presumably Dooku "knew" that Obi Wan would follow Fett to Geonosis after discovering the clue left behind on Coruscant which natually led him to Kamino (with me so far?). The "plan" necessitated someone getting the Clone Army and bringing it to Geonosis so this great conflict could begin. The only way for that to happen would be to have "bait": a Jedi in danger. This presumably would trigger the other Jedi to go get the Clone Army to attack the robots in the arena. Dooku needed the hostage (Obi Wan) to escape (and he knew he would which is why he didn't just want them shot opting instead for a James Bond like drawn out execution sequence). He needed the hostage to escape because that hostage would carry the seeds of dis-information with him back to Coruscant. That information in turn is necessary to sew the seeds of distrust between the Jedi and the government. Why? I don't know, it still doesn't make much sense. But the point being is that Dooku probably knew full well that a Jedi was lurking in the shadows which is why they had that meeting which just so happened to lay out their grand scheme...simply so Obi Wan could hear it and take that information back to the Jedi Council. Stupid plan of course, but there it is.

Kidhuman
07-03-2004, 10:58 PM
Okay, I buy the theories, makes sense.

I donot buy that Palps never used the force at all. I agm led to believe thgat he hgas used it gat some point, weather to manipulate a situation, or to train Maul in some fashion. Maybe your right and I am not, but neither one of us really dont know.

stillakid
07-04-2004, 10:08 AM
Okay, I buy the theories, makes sense.

I donot buy that Palps never used the force at all. I agm led to believe thgat he hgas used it gat some point, weather to manipulate a situation, or to train Maul in some fashion. Maybe your right and I am not, but neither one of us really dont know.

Everybody else gets to rationalize around here. I thought I'd jump in the pool. ;)

I'll admit, Palp's never using the Force is a stretch and probably one that Lucas himself would roll his eyes at. But I've tried looking at this from every angle and this is the best approach we have that links everything we know. I don't think Lucas really thought it through that much, so as a result there is bound to be a weak link somewhere, no matter which theory you choose to go with. JT's works...to a point. Mine works....to a point. I have yet to see a theory that requires no rationalization to make it work flawlessly.

Kidhuman
07-04-2004, 09:35 PM
Everybody else gets to rationalize around here. I thought I'd jump in the pool. ;)

Hell, I thought you were the lifeguard. :D


I have yet to see a theory that requires no rationalization to make it work flawlessly.


Dont look at me for one, I asked the question. :beard:

JediTricks
07-05-2004, 10:08 PM
Vader couldn't sense Luke because Luke wasn't a Force user yet. His "power" wasn't strong enough to cause even a faint ripple, therefore no Force user would have been able to detect Luke, even Old Ben and he was sitting right next to him.

Vader couldn't sense Luke in the X-Wing because Luke wasn't using the Force yet.But Ben said that Luke had taken his first step into his use of the Force, Luke had stretched out with his feelings already.


Qui Gon sensing Maul. Who said he didn't? The screen reactions and the script. Qui-Gon only spotted Maul in the desert because he turned to respond to Anakin's complaining about being tired.

As for Palpi theory, I don't accept it, what we're presented with on-screen suggests otherwise with dialogue and especially some of his comments to Vader, plus what we have in the scripts doesn't support your theory. And as for Dooku, I won't argue the logic of the situation which you presented, but we aren't given any on-screen clues that Dooku sensed Obi-Wan and Lucas usually doesn't play that way, plus it is SO convoluted. Maybe that's what Lucas wanted, but I don't accept it (and that includes if it came from Lucas's mouth himself).

stillakid
07-08-2004, 11:30 AM
But Ben said that Luke had taken his first step into his use of the Force, Luke had stretched out with his feelings already.
Yeah, I'm intentionally rationalizing that Luke had taken mere "baby steps" and not enough to cause more than a faint ripple in the "ocean" of the Force energy field. So when he deflected those laser bolts on the Falcon, it was like tossing a tiny pebble into a big pond. Faint ripples for a moment, but quicky dispersed. He managed to do it but not long enough to maintain "stability." Remember those posters that were a big hit a few years ago, the one's where you had to stare and "defocus" at the colors...after a few minutes you could see the real picture that was hidden in the chaos? Some were harder than others but what I remember about them was that once I was "in there," I could confidently look away and come right back to it. For others, even a simple blink of the eyes would ruin it and I'd have to concentrate all over again.

So in much the same way, a guy like Old Ben gets it. He's "in there" all the time. So he's always sending out a "disturbance" in the Force like a radio station that never turns off. But Luke needed to be reminded "how to do it" when flying down the trench. Had he been "in it" since using the blast shield helmet, he wouldn't have needed Spirit Ben's reminder and Vader would have sensed Luke's presence right away. Not only that, but if this was a "know the guy" scenario as you submit, then Vader would have sensed Luke right away when the Falcon was captured (or even earlier on Tatooine), or not at all because they never meet until ESB.


The screen reactions and the script. Qui-Gon only spotted Maul in the desert because he turned to respond to Anakin's complaining about being tired.
I'm using the screen version. Lots of things are written in scripts that never make it to screen, either by mistake or by design.


As for Palpi theory, I don't accept it, what we're presented with on-screen suggests otherwise with dialogue and especially some of his comments to Vader,
Like what? All I remember is Palps saying that he "foresees" things a lot. Aside from that, there isn't anything as I recall. So I attribute his foreseeing to political posturing...making himself seem to be Force powerful when he really isn't.

JediTricks
07-09-2004, 05:41 PM
Yeah, I'm intentionally rationalizing that Luke had taken mere "baby steps" and not enough to cause more than a faint ripple in the "ocean" of the Force energy field. So when he deflected those laser bolts on the Falcon, it was like tossing a tiny pebble into a big pond. Faint ripples for a moment, but quicky dispersed. He managed to do it but not long enough to maintain "stability." Remember those posters that were a big hit a few years ago, the one's where you had to stare and "defocus" at the colors...after a few minutes you could see the real picture that was hidden in the chaos? Some were harder than others but what I remember about them was that once I was "in there," I could confidently look away and come right back to it. For others, even a simple blink of the eyes would ruin it and I'd have to concentrate all over again. I might be more open to this possibility if Luke wasn't also able to use the Force to pull his lightsaber to his hand on Hoth without any additional training.



Like what? All I remember is Palps saying that he "foresees" things a lot. Aside from that, there isn't anything as I recall. So I attribute his foreseeing to political posturing...making himself seem to be Force powerful when he really isn't.And he does foresee things. He also uses the Force in ROTJ not only with the lightning but with the handcuffs, and he senses Luke beginning his deep training with Yoda, the "great disturbance in the Force" comment before Vader's said a word about it.

stillakid
07-09-2004, 06:44 PM
I might be more open to this possibility if Luke wasn't also able to use the Force to pull his lightsaber to his hand on Hoth without any additional training.
As you are aware, I'm not one to let "assumptions" rule the roost when trying to explain movie things. But when an offscreen event occurs in between episodes, I give much more leaway. It's entirely expected that in the time between the Yavin medal ceremony and the Hoth sequence that Luke would have been practicing on his own. He got enough of a tease from Old Ben to get him going so that he could naturally "grow stronger" on his own. But that only would work to a point which is when naturally he is given the roadmap to deeper training. Enter Yoda...



And he does foresee things. He also uses the Force in ROTJ not only with the lightning but with the handcuffs, and he senses Luke beginning his deep training with Yoda, the "great disturbance in the Force" comment before Vader's said a word about it.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the handcuffs thing. Hmm? So here's what I'm thinking. All throughout the Prequels, Palps cleverly stays distant from actually using the Force as he might be discovered before being able to take political power. Once he succeeds, there is no need to stay "hidden" from the Jedi anymore as most of them are dead. He is now free to practice everything that he had been studying and teaching Maul all those years.

I still don't buy the foreseeing stuff. It still comes off as his own posturing to Vader. Palps knows that Anakin is inherently more powerful so it is important to try to "one up" the dark guy in whatever way possible whether true or not. I think that once he begins using the Force himself, he can indeed "sense" other disturbers as well which explains why he can sense Luke, but he wouldn't need much more than that. With Imperial spies afoot, getting the "Skywalker" name attached to the new Jedi wouldn't be a stretch for anyone.

Veers
07-14-2004, 08:22 PM
I always wondered myself on why Vader did not sense Han coming in.

Kidhuman
07-14-2004, 08:44 PM
SO Stillakid, if they can only sense force users, how did Ben sense Millions of people crying out in agony when Alderaan blew up?

stillakid
07-15-2004, 10:32 AM
SO Stillakid, if they can only sense force users, how did Ben sense Millions of people crying out in agony when Alderaan blew up?


Good question! :) He didn't sense them necessarily, I guess. He sensed a massive and sudden "disturbance" in the energy field (the Force). He even said, "as if millions of voices..." not that he actually felt millions of voices cried out in terror. Remember, as little Yoda told us, everything is made up of and connected by this energy field so while an individual death may make a minor "ploop!" in the "waters" of the energy field, such a catastrophic event like a planet being destroyed along with everything on it is bound to be more like dropping a Buick into a pond. Anyone attuned to "feeling" those kinds of changes wouldn't be able to miss that one.

What would have been really interesting would be to see Vader's reaction right after the explosion. Obi was pretty far away and had to sit down. Vader was right next door. It might have dropped the guy right then and there!

Kidhuman
07-15-2004, 01:59 PM
What would have been really interesting would be to see Vader's reaction right after the explosion. Obi was pretty far away and had to sit down. Vader was right next door. It might have dropped the guy right then and there!

LMAO :D

That is so true, I now wonder what happened to Vader

JediTricks
07-15-2004, 06:42 PM
I would suspect that being one with the Dark Side, it would have felt invigorating to his negative feelings, fueled his hatred and anger and made him more powerful and dark inside. Like gatorade for the Sith. ;)

stillakid
07-16-2004, 08:44 AM
I would suspect that being one with the Dark Side, it would have felt invigorating to his negative feelings, fueled his hatred and anger and made him more powerful and dark inside. Like gatorade for the Sith. ;)

Does he sweat "blue"? Of course, behind the mask, we'll never know. :D

Kidhuman
07-16-2004, 09:57 AM
Well, when the DS2 blew up, shouldnt Luke of crashed the shuttle then? And if Vader could of hung on for a few more minutes, he would of been recharged?

stillakid
07-16-2004, 11:17 AM
Well, when the DS2 blew up, shouldnt Luke of crashed the shuttle then?
Maybe. Depends on how many Imperials were on that thing when it blew. :D But then again, maybe Luke did have seizure or something on his trip down the surface. We don't know because they cut away.


And if Vader could of hung on for a few more minutes, he would of been recharged? I smell another Infinities storyline! :classic:

darthvyn
07-16-2004, 11:59 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot about the handcuffs thing. Hmm? So here's what I'm thinking. All throughout the Prequels, Palps cleverly stays distant from actually using the Force as he might be discovered before being able to take political power. Once he succeeds, there is no need to stay "hidden" from the Jedi anymore as most of them are dead. He is now free to practice everything that he had been studying and teaching Maul all those years.


i tend to think just the opposite... that he's using his powers overtime, in order to hide the sith from the jedi radar, and affect the jedi's connection with the force. we get a glimpse of what's going on in AOC when mace asks yoda if they should reveal that they've lost some grip on the force - that the jedi are weakened somehow. i think this is palpatine's doing.

stillakid
07-16-2004, 02:14 PM
i tend to think just the opposite... that he's using his powers overtime, in order to hide the sith from the jedi radar, and affect the jedi's connection with the force. we get a glimpse of what's going on in AOC when mace asks yoda if they should reveal that they've lost some grip on the force - that the jedi are weakened somehow. i think this is palpatine's doing.

Yeah, maybe, but there isn't any real evidence of that. If you choose to use my theory as a base, any Force user sends out "waves" no matter what, which is why Vader sensed Old Ben on the Death Star even when the old guy wasn't really doing anything but hiding. So for what you to say to be true, anytime Palps even got near a Force sensitive person (or alien), it'd be like dumping a load of bricks on their "aura." I mean, I see what you're saying, but with Palps around in that kind of scenario, a normal Jedi would have to lose practically ALL ability to tap into the Force. Think of it this way, if Luke's training was enough to create a perceptable "wave" felt across the galaxy by Vader and the Emperor, and the Alderaan explosion was like Buick being tossed into the energy field "pond," then in order for Palps to "mask" his presence in the way you suggest would be like freezing the entire pond over all at once so that NO waves of any kind would be perceptable from him. But we know that the Jedi have some capabilities so I just can't see how it would be possible.

JediTricks
07-16-2004, 08:25 PM
Does he sweat "blue"? Of course, behind the mask, we'll never know. :D
It's the Sith, they only sweat red. Eww, fruit punch flavor! That just PROVES they're evil.



And if Vader could of hung on for a few more minutes, he would of been recharged?Yes, that's exactly what happened too, why do you think Luke burned him? Because the body was coming back to life, starting to twitch with evil again just like at the end of The Terminator, so he lit it ablaze. :D

Seriously though, I think with Vader going good at the end, it wouldn't have affected him this way because he no longer was one with the Dark Side.

stillakid
07-16-2004, 10:20 PM
Seriously though, I think with Vader going good at the end, it wouldn't have affected him this way because he no longer was one with the Dark Side.

True dat. But Luke had started down the darkpath so he probably felt something...


hmm...to be continued in Episode VII. :D

JediTricks
07-17-2004, 09:51 PM
Luke had given in to his anger, tapped into the Dark Side, but he was by no means a Sith - he did not derive pleasure from the control and suffering of others, he did not willfully continue to tap into fear, anger and aggression, he stopped well short of falling to the Dark Side of the Force and by doing so put into motion the destruction of the Sith. This is what we're shown at the end of ROTJ.

stillakid
07-18-2004, 09:26 AM
Luke had given in to his anger, tapped into the Dark Side, but he was by no means a Sith - he did not derive pleasure from the control and suffering of others, he did not willfully continue to tap into fear, anger and aggression, he stopped well short of falling to the Dark Side of the Force and by doing so put into motion the destruction of the Sith. This is what we're shown at the end of ROTJ.

We're also shown that he was able to essentially take down Vader by embracing that anger and aggression then "step back" from it to "do the right thing." What this sets up in Luke character is the recognition that the ends justify the means. Like I just saw in an interview with Mrs. Bush (wife of President George), when asked about the inconsistencies in the reasoning behind going to war, she just sort of stared at the interviewer and said, "Why doesn't he get any credit for the good that's come out of this?" Same thing with Luke potentially. He's already shown himself that he can step back from the brink of disaster (or so he thinks) and come back. This is precisely what Yoda was warning him about. Once you start down that darkpath, once you taste the power of what you can accomplish, there's no turning back no matter how much you fool yourself into thinking that you can. Luke may have tossed aside his lightsaber when he could have exacted revenge upon Vader, but that doesn't negate his knowledge of what the darkside can accomplish.