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stillakid
07-14-2004, 12:06 PM
In Episode I, the assertion is made that Podracing is so difficult that only a few humans are capable of doing it. More than that, we are meant to come away with the idea that only humans with Force potential (lots o' Midichlorians) have the capability to fly a machine like that in dangerous conditions.

With that in mind, isn't it reasonable to assume that BikerScouts in Return of the Jedi are also chock full o' Midi's and have Force capability. Afterall, the only ones we see fly speederbikes are the scouts and Luke and Leia, whom we know are chock full o' Midi's themselves.

Are BikerScouts latent Jedi?

Beast
07-14-2004, 12:16 PM
I don't believe there's any evidence of 'Force Potential' with the Clone Biker Scouts shown in RotJ. Since the max speed of a Speeder Bike is only 500 km/h compared to Pod Racers that roughly double that. So I wouldn't say that the Biker Scouts are chock full o' Midi's, though every being possesses Midiclorians. The Scouts just have years of training and experience riding them.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Droid
07-14-2004, 12:34 PM
Also, it is probably rare for the speeder bikes to be used in settings with as many obstacles as the Endor forest. The speeder bikes might have been a good means of transportation on Endor, but probably weren't supposed to be used for high speed chases in that setting. The Empire did not think there was anyone on Endor so a high speed chase probably seemed unlikely to them.

And it is not surprising that all the Biker Scouts died in the speeder bike chase. Not even Luke or Leia managed to keep their bikes in tact during that high speed chase. But they luckily surived!

Bacta Beast
07-14-2004, 03:38 PM
Also, the concept of the vehicle is completely different. I figure part of the challenge of racing pods is controlling those two huge engines out in front of you, while you're being dragged behind them.

dr_evazan22
07-14-2004, 10:06 PM
It's also fair to assume that they were not always used at full speed, but maybe more with bursts of speed. When the Scout appears to be going full out chasing Leia, he has a momnetary distraction and BAM! crispy critter!

Kidhuman
07-14-2004, 10:56 PM
I saw an Ewok use one. Is he a force user too?

Bacta Beast
07-14-2004, 10:59 PM
Well, that either settles this discussion, or opens up a new one on the possiblity of Ewoks as candidates for the Jedi Academy>

stillakid
07-15-2004, 11:10 AM
Well, that either settles this discussion, or opens up a new one on the possiblity of Ewoks as candidates for the Jedi Academy>

No that doesn't settle it. :) I heartily disagree with all ya all. The Pods may go "faster" (maybe), but they were piloted across wide swaths of empty space with extremely brief periods of "tight" racing. The BikerScouts successfully pushed their machines (supposedly) to 200+ mph weaving in and out of thick growths of trees. You try it. :rolleyes: Even with "practice," I doubt any one of us could manage to get above 35mph in anything without clipping something fairly quickly.

This business about them crashing...you all seem to be ignoring the "chase" and "getting shot at" factor. Even the expert Podracers met with fiery ends when challenged. Plus, let's take a look at those crashes. One blew up because Luke cut his control vanes off. Duh. Another crashed because he was too busy gloating over knocking Leia off. Duh. The rest bought it after being shot at.

As for that Ewok, his ride didn't last so long. He got on, put it into drive and hung on until the opportunity presented itself to bail.


The jury has come back and determined that your rebuttal is flawed and wrong. Bikerscouts are chock full o' Midi's based on Prequel logic therefore must be latent Jedi.

Cheers! :D

Bacta Beast
07-15-2004, 11:53 AM
Ooops! We were wrong! Stillakid has spoken! We stand corrected! C'mon man get your head out of your rectum! :eek: The biker scouts performance in that scene didn't prove they had any more control of the force than my grandma! :crazed: You haven't convinced me that your logic isn't flawed. :bored:

Droid
07-15-2004, 12:41 PM
Han managed to navigate an asteroid field and I don't think he had any of the Force critters in him. Some people are gifted even without the Force.

Also, Jango Fett successfully navigated an asteroid field. He was the prototype for the Clones, which presumably become the proto-Stormtroopers (though I am still not so certain we can say the Stormtroopers/Snowtroopers/Biker Scouts we saw in the original trilogy were clonse or were anything more than drafted soldiers). So, if you assume that the Biker Scouts were clones of Jango (which I don't necessarily believe), then it seems likely the biker scouts would be extremely good pilots. Moreover, it is safe to assume that Jango had no force powers at all, otherwise we would be making the assumption that the Clone Troopers have force abilities, which I don't believe any of us is asserting.

Therefore, just because someone is a skilled pilot does not mean that he or she has force abilities or tendencies.

Also, Qui-Gon said, "You must have Jedi reflexes if you race Pods." I don't think that statement is supposed to be taken literally. Qui-Gon likely already sensed the Force in Anakin and was using the conversation to start exploring the possibility of Anakin's abilities.

JediTricks
07-15-2004, 07:47 PM
Anakin is the ONLY human to ever race a pod according to the film and a myriad of EU backing it up, always attributed to his latent Force abilities. Yet the scout troopers (since ROTJ came first and wasn't written by Lucas, I'm not entertaining the theory that they are clones) fly around at around a top speed of 500kph where Anakin's pod had a top speed of 800kph and the general speed of the race is 700kph. I guess Anakin's abilities come into play at 501kph then, which keeps other human folks in the galaxy from being able to top out. Or more likely, the prequels goofed again and that's what this thread is about.

Beast
07-15-2004, 08:06 PM
It's not 'just a theory' when it's been confirmed by Lucas that the Empire uses other stock besides Jango, to create Stormtrooper clones after the Empire is formed. Since they would have to, due to Jango's death and the inability to harvest fresh genetic material from him. And likely cloning a clone would probably cause cellular degeneration.

And I agree, I doubt that they were going top speed in the Endor forrest on the Speeder Bikes. And that flying the pods due to their unique designs, would make it more of a challenge then the crotchrocket Speeder Bikes. As for the pod racer speeds, I'm going by what the official site has to say in regard to their max speeds, JT. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JediTricks
07-15-2004, 09:18 PM
It's "just a theory" because it has no on-screen setup, it certainly isn't canon. After-the-fact meddling is not setup no matter what Lucas wants you to believe. Lucas is the king of rewriting his own history and so his "word" today on this doesn't fit with what was presented on-screen (and until I see differently, it still doesn't).


BTW, I didn't pull those speeds out of thin air, I got them from the official site.

2-1B
07-16-2004, 03:05 AM
Anakin is the ONLY human to ever race a pod according to the film

No, that would be according to Anakin. A 9 year old kid has no way of knowing that he's the only human who can do it. I call it bragging. ;)


and a myriad of EU backing it up

What's EU ? :p

stillakid
07-16-2004, 09:34 AM
Ooops! We were wrong! Stillakid has spoken! We stand corrected! C'mon man get your head out of your rectum! :eek: The biker scouts performance in that scene didn't prove they had any more control of the force than my grandma! :crazed: You haven't convinced me that your logic isn't flawed. :bored:

User "Droid" makes a good point about Han and Jango navigating asteroid fields...however, while I can't really defend Jango, everything about Han's setup provided more than enough justification for the audience to believe that he was just really good. I know that sounds weak, but it does work. In fact, it's part of Han's charm. He has a lot of bold claims about piloting in ANH but we don't really get to see proof of it until ESB.

And still, even if we are to believe JJB's contention that the Bikerscouts are going really slow through the redwood forest (at 500kph :rolleyes: ... you try it), in light of what we are told about piloting surface craft at those speeds in Episode I, there really doesn't seem to be any other reasonable alternative to believing that Bikerscouts are chock full o' Midi's. The only other explanation is JJB's idea that they just practice a whole lot 'til they're superduper yippee good. Yeah, okay...

2-1B
07-16-2004, 12:30 PM
What about the speederbike in AOTC ?

We only see Anakin pilot the ride but it clearly belonged to someone else (Owen or Cliegg, with the "EU" crediting it as Owen's bike).

darthvyn
07-16-2004, 12:49 PM
hey, i got the gold medal on the endor speeder bike board of rogue squadron III, and i'm not a jedi... or am i?

there is no evidence that the bikes are going full throttle. they are probably going the fastest they can with the provided terrain. that is not to say that it's slow, say it's about 100mph... but these are people that grew up around machinery (speeders, swoops, starships, etc...) that can do that, so they are naturally capable at speeds like that. luke has force potential on his side. leia ducks out pretty early on, as she doesn't have the training luke has. the scouts have imperial training, and macrobinocs in their helmets.

it's an interesting theory, but once again, it's only a theory created to debunk the prequels. i find no reason to assume that the biker scouts are force potentials.

Kidhuman
07-16-2004, 01:49 PM
i find no reason to assume that the biker scouts are force potentials.

Me either, and here is why. Palpy went balistic hunting down and murdering all force users. If he discovered that they were force users, he would of killed them or trained them to take Vaders place. I say he would of killed them personally.

Or Vader would of trained one, so he could knock off Palps agnd take his rightful place as ruler of the Galaxy.

El Chuxter
07-16-2004, 02:47 PM
He didn't kill all Force users. There was Vader, of course, and Mara Jade. Also he had tons of Force-users with just enough training to be dangerous: Jerec, Roganda Ismaren, Marek Stele, etc, etc, etc.

There was also at least one Jedi (Joruus C'Baoth) cloned just prior to the Clone Wars, presumably by Palpatine or one of his agents

Of course, this is if you're going by EU, but from the sound of your post, you wanted to go there. :D

Kidhuman
07-16-2004, 02:52 PM
No, I really wasnt going to the EU there. If I was I would of mentioned all his bastard kids and all his clones as well as what you mentioned.

stillakid
07-16-2004, 03:00 PM
What about the speederbike in AOTC ?

We only see Anakin pilot the ride but it clearly belonged to someone else (Owen or Cliegg, with the "EU" crediting it as Owen's bike).


I wasn't implying that it was the piloting of the bike (or type of bike) that suggests Force use. I was suggesting that because of the terrain (as someone else put it) that these guys were clearly very adept at flying at 200mph through, that they MUST be Midi-rich. Any schlep could probably hop on a Speederbike or in a Pod and race without too much trouble across miles of empty terrain. But to pilot through dense obstacles at very high speeds would necessarily take a little somethin' extra.

JediTricks
07-16-2004, 09:12 PM
No, that would be according to Anakin. A 9 year old kid has no way of knowing that he's the only human who can do it. I call it bragging. ;)Watto backs up the claim, and the EU does so more forcefully (again, non-canon but all this talk of pod speeds being faster than bike speeds is EU anyway). But even without, it's the only thing we're told about it in the film, we're not given even a hint of contradiction at the claim.


I theorize that swoops and speerbikes have some sort of deflector system, a beam ahead of them that ensures their path is free of objects by deflecting the tiny ones and adjusting the bike's course away from the big ones - the bike is small enough that it could take being "nudged" into a slight course deviation like this without tearing itself apart or slowing it down, but can only compensate so much for driving skills. This would also explain why they weren't getting ripped off the bikes by the wind or torn to shreds by branches and pebbles and even large dust particles. (You'll have to pardon my adapting Star Trek technology to this, but it does make sense to me and seems like it'd be intuitive for the rider.)

stillakid
07-16-2004, 11:07 PM
Watto backs up the claim, and the EU does so more forcefully (again, non-canon but all this talk of pod speeds being faster than bike speeds is EU anyway). But even without, it's the only thing we're told about it in the film, we're not given even a hint of contradiction at the claim.


I theorize that swoops and speerbikes have some sort of deflector system, a beam ahead of them that ensures their path is free of objects by deflecting the tiny ones and adjusting the bike's course away from the big ones - the bike is small enough that it could take being "nudged" into a slight course deviation like this without tearing itself apart or slowing it down, but can only compensate so much for driving skills. This would also explain why they weren't getting ripped off the bikes by the wind or torn to shreds by branches and pebbles and even large dust particles. (You'll have to pardon my adapting Star Trek technology to this, but it does make sense to me and seems like it'd be intuitive for the rider.)

To be fair, I remember the Bike speed coming from the novel. Supposed to be upwards of 200mph I believe. If you look at the film, they definitely are moving very very fast through those woods, but judging from the way the Endor camo fatigues barely flap around, it looks more like our heros are sputtering around at 10mph or less. Still, the implication is that they are moving very rapidly through a dense forest full of gigantic trees.

2-1B
07-17-2004, 01:23 AM
JT, how does Watto back it up in the film ?
I'm not disputing you, I just haven't watched TPM in awhile so I can't recall whatever it is you refer to. Thanks.

JediTricks
07-17-2004, 10:39 PM
Maybe it's only in the script, but here's an exchange that suggests it (and you'll notice that Qui-Gon also backs it up, though I suppose he could be trying to humor the little guy)...


ANAKIN: Have you ever seen a Podrace?

PADMÉ shakes her head no. She notices the concern of SHMI. JAR JAR snatches some food from a bowl at the other end of the table with his tongue. QUI-GON gives him a dirty look.

QUI-GON: They have Podracing on Malastare. Very fast, very dangerous.
ANAKIN: I'm the only human who can do it.

SHMI looks askance at her son.

ANAKIN: (Cont'd) Mom, what? I'm not bragging. It's true. Watto says he's never heard of a human doing it.
QUI-GON: You must have Jedi reflexes if you race Pods.

Watto also later says...

ANAKIN: Ahhhh...it wasn't my fault really...Sebulba flashed me with his vent ports. I actually saved the Pod...mostly.
WATTO: (laughing) That you did. The boy is good, no doubts there.

- and later -

WATTO: Don't get me wrongo. I have great faith in the boy. He's a credit to your race


There's never contradiction on-screen - direct or otherwise - so I go with that.

2-1B
07-18-2004, 06:21 PM
Thanks JT. The line about Watto saying Ani was the "only human" didn't make it to the screen. I see what you mean.

Bosskman
07-18-2004, 06:46 PM
Comparing riding a speeder bike to piloting a pod racer is like comparing riding a horse to driving a chariot drawn by two horses. Speed is not the main issue here, manoverability is. Last time I saw TPM, it seemed to me that there were an awfull lot of tight spots to get those podracers into, and most were proportionally tighter than the endor speeder bike chase. Those engines are the size of bulldozers and just as bulky. A speeder bike is way easier to manover and MUCH smaller and more compact. Piloting a podracer requires extreme co-ordination. Aliens with features such as extra limbs, eyes, other appendages, and other innate abilities that humans don't have make it easier for them but they still need the skill to back it up. Anakin can do it because of the force. Without the force it's doubtful any human could do it.

Speeder bikes on the other hand can be operated by anyone. They're like the motor cycles of the Star Wars world. Almost anybody can drive one. I think what JT said about the sensors and whatnot is also a good point. These things pretty much drive themselves. The forests we saw on Endor in ROTJ were not particualrly dense. The trees seemed to be spaced apart about as wide as the average city street. No jedi reflexes needed here.

CropDuster
07-26-2004, 04:56 AM
This brings up a good point. Now, stilla, tell me if I'm wrong, but I detected a bit of prequel sarcasm as far as the force latent biker scouts is concerned :sur: . However, your original post questions the validity of the pod racing as a latent force/midi concentration indicator, and rightly so. I know Georgie wants us to believe that it is impossible for normal humans to pod race, but it doesn't appear to be a much greater feat than the riding of a speeder bike through the dense Endor forest. The actual pod maneuvering did not look "humanly impossible". How impressive were those superior beings that couldn't finish the pod race. I saw no evidence of superhuman abilities and/or reflexes on their part. We are supposed to believe that it is soooo difficult to drive a pod and yet it simply doesn't appear that way. The greater challenge seemed to be avoiding the obstacles presented primarily by sebulba. It didn't look easy, but I don't think a NASCAR driver pushing 220+mph in a tight pack of cars on a somewhat narrow oval racetrack or a stunt pilot maneuvering a jet in a tight formation looks easy either. Maybe racecar drivers and airshow jet pilots are chock full 'o midis. :rolleyes: Is there any EU to help explain Andretti's or Earnhardt's driving skills, or a Blue Angels pilot's ability to perform air acrobatics?

stillakid
07-26-2004, 09:42 AM
This brings up a good point. Now, stilla, tell me if I'm wrong, but I detected a bit of prequel sarcasm as far as the force latent biker scouts is concerned :sur: . However, your original post questions the validity of the pod racing as a latent force/midi concentration indicator, and rightly so. I know Georgie wants us to believe that it is impossible for normal humans to pod race, but it doesn't appear to be a much greater feat than the riding of a speeder bike through the dense Endor forest. The actual pod maneuvering did not look "humanly impossible". How impressive were those superior beings that couldn't finish the pod race. I saw no evidence of superhuman abilities and/or reflexes on their part. We are supposed to believe that it is soooo difficult to drive a pod and yet it simply doesn't appear that way. The greater challenge seemed to be avoiding the obstacles presented primarily by sebulba. It didn't look easy, but I don't think a NASCAR driver pushing 220+mph in a tight pack of cars on a somewhat narrow oval racetrack or a stunt pilot maneuvering a jet in a tight formation looks easy either. Maybe racecar drivers and airshow jet pilots are chock full 'o midis. :rolleyes: Is there any EU to help explain Andretti's or Earnhardt's driving skills, or a Blue Angels pilot's ability to perform air acrobatics?

Uh, yeah, precisely. But whether I'm "sarcastic" or not, what's the difference? What I mean is, why does my personal attitude matter in this case and in most others? I don't mean to direct this specifically at you, but others have used my "sarcasm" as an excuse to ignore the obvious irregularities in the Saga while managing attempts to rationalize or ignore the problems. Point being, whether I ask the questions or not, anyone else could or not but the problems would still exist. I'm just pointing them out. Don't kill the messenger. :dead:

bigbarada
07-27-2004, 03:04 PM
Well judging by the way the wind buffetted the riders of the Speeder Bikes, it's unlikely they were going any faster than 20-30 miles per hour. But that could just be an SPFX inconsistency that hasn't been answered yet.

If the Speeder Bikes go about 200 mph, and the average NASCAR race is about 225 mph, then I think controlling those vehicles is well within the range of human abilities without the midis.

However, any rider of motorcycles knows that speeds over 60 mph become more dangerous for the rider since you can actually be torn from the bike if you sit up too high. So that would have made life exponentially more difficult for Luke and Leia since they were wearing those ponchos which would have acted like parachutes.

All in all, it is just a scene in a movie meant to generate excitment, once you start examining it logically it falls apart completely.

stillakid
07-27-2004, 11:19 PM
If the Speeder Bikes go about 200 mph, and the average NASCAR race is about 225 mph, then I think controlling those vehicles is well within the range of human abilities without the midis.
.

Once again, for the umteenth time, it isn't about the speed. When's the last time you saw NASCAR drivers going full blast through a redwood forest?

Kidhuman
07-28-2004, 08:45 AM
Never, but I did see JR. burn to a crisp.

Beast
07-28-2004, 08:46 AM
It is about speed, who said that those bikers were ever traveling at full speed. :p :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
07-28-2004, 06:01 PM
It is about speed, who said that those bikers were ever traveling at full speed. :p :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks



Return of the Jedi, the novelization...page 86.
Luke and Leia sped through the dense foliage, a few feet off the ground, Leia at the controls, Luke grabbing on behind her. The two escaping Imperial scouts had a good lead, but at two hundred miles per hour, Leia was the better pilot -- the talent ran in her family.

...

"Move closer!" Luke shouted.
Leia opened the throttle, closed the gap...

So, to answer your question above, James Kahn did and George Lucas most likely approved the text at the time.

But if you want to stick purely onscreen information, there is no indication at all of speed during the ROTJ chase. By the same token, the same holds true for the Podrace sequence in TPM, so that isn't a valid argument.

Any more questions, Lucasboy?

Beast
07-28-2004, 06:14 PM
The novels arn't canon. Remember that the ROTJ novel also states that Obi-Wan and Owen were brothers. Which was not the fact. And feel free to keep calling me Lucasboy, since I don't agree with every choice. You just show your own level of close-minded ignorance. That instead of actually accepting the fact that someone else has a different opinion than yours, you attack them. As per your norm. :rolleyes:

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Bacta Beast
07-28-2004, 06:19 PM
It is about speed, and manueverability. Man Stillakid where do you find the time to come up with this stuff?!

stillakid
07-28-2004, 07:10 PM
The novels arn't canon. Remember that the ROTJ novel also states that Obi-Wan and Owen were brothers. Which was not the fact.
You managed to not read Part II of my post above which referred to the "non canon" scenario you mention here.




And feel free to keep calling me Lucasboy, since I don't agree with every choice.
And which "choices" of Lucas haven't you agreed with? I must have missed that thread.


You just show your own level of close-minded ignorance. That instead of actually accepting the fact that someone else has a different opinion than yours, you attack them. As per your norm. :rolleyes:


Some things are opinion. Some are fact. It is unequivocally stated that Speederbikes cruise upwards of 200mph. In the film itself, great speed is illustrated whilst dodging thick groves of large trees. The question was, given the onscreen "fact" that only Midichlorian rich humans could successfully "fly" Podracers, since Speederbikes are similar machines and are shown to be flying at similar high speeds and through far more treacherous environments, are Speedbiker pilots chock full o' Midichlorians? You suggest that "no" they are not because somehow Speederbikes are not flying as fast as Podracers. That's just incorrect based on "non canon" material and onscreen implication. Where is the "opinion" in that? :confused:



It is about speed, and manueverability. Man Stillakid where do you find the time to come up with this stuff?!
Thank you for correcting me. You're right. It IS about both speed and manueverability, which is why Speederbike pilots must be latent Force users. While Pods may be going faster (we have no true way of knowing from onscreen evidence), they are driven in mostly large, flat, open spaces requiring little skill beyond just keeping them in the air. On the other hand, Speederbikes also fly at incredibly fast speeds but must be manuevered through large and deadly obstacles (in ROTJ). Regardless of the technology, no amount of "shielding" or anything else would stop death if the Speederbike pilot wasn't either HIGHLY skilled or had a little extra help from some Midi's. So if they aren't chock full o' Midi's, then they must be HIGHLY skilled which begs the question of why more humans can't learn how to successfully pilot a Podracer as TPM suggests?

Where do I come up with this stuff? Hmm, I can't remember this one, but it was a couple of weeks ago. It just kinda occurred to me out of the blue one day. Weird, huh? ;)

Bosskman
07-28-2004, 07:10 PM
I think stillakid is supershadow. He knows so much........

stillakid
07-28-2004, 07:14 PM
I think stillakid is supershadow. He knows so much........

I only know what is available from the script, the novels, and the screen. It's all available to you too! No, really! :) No super secret info. No secret inside sources. Just the plain ol' movies and books and stuff. Check 'em out! :)

Turambar
07-28-2004, 11:08 PM
Those are interesting points stillakid & cropduster brought up. It gets one wondering why are the feats of podracers so much more special than speederbike drivers. They are both piloting fast moving vehicles. Both require better than average reflexes. The differences I see are that podracers (I hate that term "pod"; sounds so childish) pilot their ridiculous looking contraptions through a desert whereas biker scouts are maneuvering their bikes through a deathtrap of trees. As cropduster mentioned, we see racecar drivers and blue angel pilots (flying in close quarters at speeds well over 200 mph) able to perform feats on par if not more impressive without any unfair advantage. So why is it so impossible for a human to podrace when they pilot speederbikes?
Once again, GL totally misses the boat with this scene. The emphasis should have been placed on the fact that a 7 or 8 year old kid is driving this bathtub, not the fact that he's human. There's no reason why a human couldn't pilot one of those things! All land speed records are set on the utah salt flats because its a desert with nothing there -- much like piloting a bathtub hooked up to dual jet turbines through the desert expanse of tattooine. If this requires some special ability then what makes the other cartoon pilots so special? None of those silly looking cartoons do anything more impressive than wrecking. Surely a human could have done that. We see a Ree Yees alien podracing. Would that have made Ree Yees a dangerous warrior with "super reflexes". In rotj, he certainly does nothing more than die like the rest. If one of these advanced cartoon aliens became a jedi, would they be able to take a human jedi in a fight? Their reflexes are already superior, so adding the force ability should make them superior jedi.
When comparing this tremendously long scene to other scenes in the Trilogy and prequels, I find humans performing more amazing acts than podracing on the speederbikes, for one. Also, the AOTC pursuit of the bounty hunter through constantly moving obstacles is way more impressive than podracing. Was the purple lady assassin also a jedi? Heck, how about lando piloting the falcon through the maze of the the death star and back out again while it was exploding! That beats all as far as I'm concerned. Never do we see any onscreen evidence that these others have jedi potential despite higher speeds and much more dangerous terrain. So it makes no sense whatsoever as to why lil' annie is "the only human that can do it." Again, we see what GL meant to do, but his inability to create a logical story is once more exposed.
Another sore subject for me as I have hinted at is these stupid looking pods. If it was McCallum's--I mean GL's intention to create continuity between these prequels and the OT, then it stands to reason that a landspeeder race would have been the way to go. That would have been way cool to see souped up landspeeders roaring around the track. We see no evidence of "pods" in the Trilogy; we do see landspeeders, so that could help draw the films together. A teenage Anakin hotrodding a landspeeder around would have worked better than a kid in a "pod" claiming to be the only human who can do it. How did they come up with this idea of pods anyway? Sure they are supposed to resemble chariots, but the chariot had a purpose outside the race track. I can't imagine anyone using pods as an instrument of war, nor do we see any evidence of it.
Anyway, interesting thread, stillakid. Before I simply considered the podrace sequence to be a silly and unecessarily long time-filling scene. Looking deeper I see it makes no sense in context with the rest of the movies. No surprise there, though.

stillakid
07-28-2004, 11:19 PM
Looking deeper I see it makes no sense in context with the rest of the movies. No surprise there, though.

Thanks man. You rock! :) Finally somebody looks past their prejudice of me and sees the truth. Don't expect too much response from the peanut gallery on your post though. Their defense of the Prequels has pretty much degenerated into attacking me instead of providing adequate justification for why things are the way they are. Kill the messenger when you can't kill the message, in other words. :speech: :dead:

:)

Jay86
07-29-2004, 03:31 PM
I think in order to answer this question, a number of things need to be considered:

Pod Racers

- Pod racers typically go about 800 KMH.
- Pod racers are basically turbine engines with repulsorlifts attached to the pod where the driver sits, connected by a magnetic beam, and with a pod, there is more to pay attention to when piloting it. If something splits that beam, the engines split and go their seperate ways and you're screwed. You have two engines in front of you, obstacles on the ground, and of course, perhaps the most dangerous factor, cheap dirty racers flying all around you as well, willing to sabotage your pod in order to win. So all in all, theres a lot to pay attention to. Now, consider we, the human species. Humans, while we may be one of the most intelligent creatures, even in the Star Wars universe as well, dont have very good hearing or sight compared to some other creatures. Take someone like Ratts Tyerell. According to the "Visual Star Wars Dictionary" (a must have, even if you dont care for the prequels, the Dictionaries for those films are interesting as well), Ratts Tyerell has a quick-changing metabolism that enables him to have seemingly lightening fast reflexes, which of course are a much needed ally in a podrace. Or take someone like Gasgano, who has a number of arms. Lets say, hypothetically, Gasgano was racing and a few of his onboard systems noticed a fuel leak and a malfunction with the brake system. Well, 4 arms would definitely help one take care of such problems and flip switches, far better than 2 arms would. So basically, piloting a pod racer is all about reflexes and senses. Now of course this will beg the question of "well how come its so hard for a human to pilot a pod"? Well, I've already explained my take on it. Its about senses and reflexes. "You've got to have Jedi reflexes if you pilot a pod". Why is that so? Because no normal human can sense whats going on around them. Other creatures can, but not humans. But a human, with the Force as its ally, can sense whats going on around them and can foresee the future and possible outcomes (no one remembered that little fact?). And you've got more to look for, with two engines in front of you, and of course during a race, cheating racers flying all around you. We humans might be the top-o-the-chain here on Earth, but in the Star Wars universe (and even here as well), there are other species that have better senses and reflexes than us. Certain creatures here on Earth can hear us coming from far distances, and they can see us before we see them as well. A shark can smell even the smallest drop of blood in water from over a quarter a mile away (or something like that). We can only see in front of us, not to our sides or behind us.
Plus Tatooine isnt hte only planet where pod racers were held. There were a number of planets where the sport was popular.

Speeder bikes

- Speeder bikes go about 500 or so.
- Speeder bikes typically dont have as many components to care for as a pod racer does. You hop on a speeder, turn it on, and off it goes. Really all you need to do is pay attention to whats in front of you. Of course, going as fast as a speeder bike does, theres a lot to pay attention to. And speeder bikes arent just used on Endor or area's with terrain like Endors, theyre used in many areas, mostly for reconnaisance missions. They were in the Clone Wars on Geonosis, and Geonosis is mostly a rocky, flat terrain with sporadic pillars of rock rising up here and there.

The difference isnt just speed, its actually about where and who you're driving with. Of course on Endor a speeder is going to be hard to maneuver with all the tree's, and to make it more difficult, Scout troopers fighting against you. But with a pod you've got that constantly, and pods are far more faulty than a speeder, due to the large machines and parts being monitored and worked during a race.

Tarumbar brought up the mention of Ree Yee's and how he easily just died like the rest of Jabba's minions in ROTJ. Well, he died due to lack of intelligence, NOT lack of senses or reflexes. Thats where the difference lies. Its easy for a creature with quick reflexes and senses to pilot a pod when all that needs to be done is push buttons and maneuver the vehicle. I mean, take a deer for example. A deer can see a human and smell it and hear it before we can see it (most of the time I believe). However, does that stop a deer from moronically running out on the highway at night? Psh, nope. Its probably far more difficult for a human being to keep track of all the sensors and monitors and whatnot while also attempting to pilot the pod and keep track of who and whats around him. And we see no evidence of pods in the OT because its been stated before - by the time the OT rolls around, swoop racing has greatly become the sport of choice in the galaxy :)

Was Zam Wessel a Jedi? No, because on Coruscant I doubt the speeders were flying at speeds near that of a speeder bike or a pod. Plus, she almost smacked into a few speeders herself anyway. And about the guy flying through the salt flats - its easier to pilot something at fast speeds when theres nothing around you (people-wise). If he had tried to do that with 20 other people doing the same thing around him......I bet the outcome would have been different. Was piloting the Falcon out of the second Death Star a difficult task? Yeah, I bet. But Lando was going back where he enterred from. And there were far less obstacles to maneuver around inside the Death Star than in a podrace, especially when you're just going backwards and you know what to expect. When driving your car and looking for a certain street, perhaps you've missed it and gone too far, then found the street, and needed to come back down it later on. Well, the second time around its far easier because you know what to look for. Plus, the Falcon can pilot itself and help detect obstacles in front of it, giving the pilots a heads up. If an X-Wing can pilot itself and an airplane can, its a sure guarantee the Falcon can.

stillakid
07-29-2004, 05:45 PM
While what you say is probably true, you're intentionally minimizing and glossing over a couple key facts in order to support the notion that Bike pilots are not Force users.

For instance:


Of course, going as fast as a speeder bike does, theres a lot to pay attention to. ....Of course on Endor a speeder is going to be hard to maneuver with all the tree's, and to make it more difficult, Scout troopers fighting against you.
You managed to bury those words deep within your paragraph, yet this is precisely what I'm talking about. You toss off 500kph as if it is nothing compared to the speed of a Podracer, but this isn't a grandma speed either. 200mph through a dense forest of trees isn't anything to shrug off as you're trying to do.



But Lando was going back where he enterred from. And there were far less obstacles to maneuver around inside the Death Star than in a podrace, especially when you're just going backwards and you know what to expect. When driving your car and looking for a certain street, perhaps you've missed it and gone too far, then found the street, and needed to come back down it later on. Well, the second time around its far easier because you know what to look for.
Are you sh**tin me? You're comparing a car travelling at, say 50mph, looking for a street to a spaceship hurtling through a claustrophobic superstructure? You think Lando was looking at the scenery on the way in? C'mon, you gotta do better than that. :rolleyes:

Jay86
07-29-2004, 09:16 PM
While what you say is probably true, you're intentionally minimizing and glossing over a couple key facts in order to support the notion that Bike pilots are not Force users.

You managed to bury those words deep within your paragraph, yet this is precisely what I'm talking about. You toss off 500kph as if it is nothing compared to the speed of a Podracer, but this isn't a grandma speed either. 200mph through a dense forest of trees isn't anything to shrug off as you're trying to do.

Are you sh**tin me? You're comparing a car travelling at, say 50mph, looking for a street to a spaceship hurtling through a claustrophobic superstructure? You think Lando was looking at the scenery on the way in? C'mon, you gotta do better than that. :rolleyes:
I gave you enough info to pretty much state that while piloting a speeder might be difficult, its obviously not as difficult as piloting a podracer. I mean, in the vaguest sense, 800 IS more than 500, and in terms of speed, again, its a lot faster. That alone answers your question.

"Really all you need to do is pay attention to whats in front of you. Of course, going as fast as a speeder bike does, theres a lot to pay attention to"

:eek:

Where did that bold sentence come from?!?!? Oh...yeah....it was there all along :rolleyes: ....only not in bold print of course.
Seems to be as though while I did say that piloting a speeder would be difficult yet not as difficult as a podracer, it nonetheless would be difficult.
Luke didnt do so well , because of course we all know that a Jedi must be able to concentrate on whats going on around him/her in order to use the Force, thats simple Star Wars fan knowledge, c'mon :rolleyes: . Perhaps he could pilot one, who knows? Maybe the Empire never released its "complete speeder bike death toll list"? For all we know, maybe in the fictional universe of it all, many Scout troopers died.....to protect that bunker :cry:. Well, actually, many of them did. However, as I said, one must consider the terrain you're driving through and how many people you have trying to push you off of yours. Again, it would probably be a rather easy thing when flying over a barren, flat surface. Though, have you forgotten, that Luke was able to jump off his speeder and avoid crashing? None of the Scouts had the premonition to do so, did they? None of them saw the Ewoks clever little tricks coming. Try flying a podracer through Endor, then tell me whats more difficult. I stated, clearly, that its obviously more difficult to pilot a larger, bulkier craft thats not guaranteed to stay in one piece. On a speeder, you're on a relatively smaller, one piece craft. And another thing I forgot to mention is that speeder bikes apparently house "special shields" that help them maneuver around certain obstacles, but, however, do not fully shield the speeder and its pilot from ALL obstacles it may encounter (that all comes from the "Visual Dictionary" as well). Therefore, no, its not easy to pilot a speeder bike. Then again you also have the aid of special shields or whatever protecting you. No one ever said that just because Anakin could pilot a pod that he would never crash. Besides, my main point was that comparing driving a pod to a speeder, what would be more difficult. Think about it in the simplest terms here, not about where you're driving it, just driving it in general. The possibility was always there. Oh, yeah, its all fiction though, so there really is no real truth to it no matter how much you think it over. All you're left with is using real world examples to best explain such a thing. And I did my best to do so.

And uh, yeah, I'm sh**tin you alright :rolleyes:
Instead of focusing on the car compared to a Millenium Falcon thing in terms of speed (which I never even mentioned at all), how about focusing on the fact that my point wasnt WHAT vehicle someone is driving and how fast they are going, it was WHAT and WHERE they/you're going and what you notice on the way to your chosen destination and how what you observe on the way to that destination can help on the way back, not how fast someone is going :rolleyes: . Focus on the observing part, not the "how fast you're going in the vehicle" thing because I never even mentioned that!!!! That was pretty obvious. Did I say a single thing about the speed at which a car travels at compared to a Millenium Falcon? No. But thanks for telling me the obvious :rolleyes: . Did I compare a car to a Millenium Falcon in terms of their capabilities? Uh, again, no. I never said its easier for a Millenium Falcon to pilot a course than it is a car. I did say, however, that aboard a Millenium Falcon you have the ability to have it autopilot itself and find obstacles in front of it and attempt to avoid them as best it can. Then again, we're attempting to argue a type of vehicle and its capabilities that doesnt even exist as of right now :rolleyes: . But as I stated, and rather clearly -

"But Lando was going back where he enterred from. And there were far less obstacles to maneuver around inside the Death Star than in a podrace, especially when you're just going backwards and you know what to expect. When driving your car and looking for a certain street, perhaps you've missed it and gone too far, then found the street, and needed to come back down it later on. Well, the second time around its far easier because you know what to look for.

Ok, lets take this nice and slow now so you'll hopefully understand it this time ;) . Yes, I'm comparing driving in a car to piloting a Millenium Falcon, BUT, only in terms of traveling a certain ruite and what one notices on the way there and back. Not speed :rolleyes: . That was stated rather clearly. Speed wasnt mentioned, was it?. See that last sentence there, the one that talks about going back where you came from being even the slightest bit easier than the first time? Yeah, focus on that. That was the point. Not on some kind of speed issue that you conjured up from who knows where. I never made an arguement comparing a car to a Corellian ship in terms of speed capabilities and such. I was using the example of traveling in a car and OBSERVING a given ruite and mistakes you make on the way and how they can play a positive role in coming back. Of course its harder when piloting a vehicle traveling at fast speeds and observing obstacles. I wasnt arguing that, thats a given. I was using the example of observation and how it can aid one in that piloting process, simple as that. Ever played "Rogue Squadron 3" (probably not?) ? Sure its not "the real deal" or the way flying a Falcon would really be exactly, but its a good start and a good way to sort of get the drift of it. Well, in the last level, you go into the second Death Star, and its tricky because you've got obstacles to look for of course. On the way out, its a lot easier getting out because you know where to turn, its all based on opposites (traveling a given ruite and going backwards). Of course the game designers give you the challenge of having to make it out before the fire sucks up the craft, but thats the only real challenge on the way out, and its still a good example. And yeah, of course Lando was looking at the scenery on the way in, I mean, (and heres another car analogy, because I'd imagine the closest thing you'll come to to flying a Falcon is a car as of now ;) ) when you're driving do you just look around at the houses and signs and sky and pay no mind to whats in front of you? I sure hope not. Besides, I could have sworn he was looking in front of him the whole time the Falcon was going in, and the Falcon does have a clear view of whats in front of it when you're sitting in the cockpit, does it not? If you were in the Falcon flying through the Death Star, you're telling me that you'd look down at all the pretty lights or close your eyes and take a gamble instead of watching whats in front of you? Hell, not even C-3PO did that in the films, and its a fictional movie we're talking about here...and HES A DROID/ROBOT!!! And according to the films, Lando knew what was around him and in front of him. "There it is", he stated as he saw the core reactor. He knew the space was small. But yet you're telling me that even if you were in that situation you wouldnt do your best to remember such a ruite? You'd just wing it on the way out? Oh please. So yeah, Lando wasnt looking at the scenery or what was around him, he was using his hidden Jedi mind powers and thats how he knew that the area was small and the reactor was in front of him :rolleyes:

Kidhuman
07-29-2004, 09:23 PM
Fly a pod racer through Endor? They would fit on a path to begin with.

And do you honestly think Lando took note of what turn and such he went through? Hell no he didnt. I do believe he went out a different way than he came in as well.

Jay86
07-29-2004, 09:34 PM
Fly a pod racer through Endor? They would fit on a path to begin with.
"Try flying a podracer through Endor, then tell me whats more difficult.

The thought of flying a podracer through Endor is funny. Its funny because you cant do it!!!! :D Thats why I said "try" :)



And do you honestly think Lando took note of what turn and such he went through? Hell no he didnt. I do believe he went out a different way than he came in as well
I dunno, I'll have to travel to Cloud City and ask Lando myself :rolleyes:
I'll just go out back, hop in my Correllian ship, and fly a few hundred parsecs at light speed and arrive at Cloud City in time to dine and wine with Lando and the gang. :p
I think you should watch the movie again, the vehicles/craft DID hit the reactor, then swoop around it and go back. Plus in "Rogue Squadron 3" you fly out the way you went in as well. Who knows, I could be wrong about that. Then again, if I'm wrong that would mean that so were the developers of that game :eek: . And surely EU material is just as credible as the films? (Some would say it is)
And that would warrant complaint letters to the game developers if my observation of the "true fan code" (as seen displayed on any given Star Wars forum) serves me correctly. I'll go get my stationary ready in the event of such a minor detail emergency ;)

Kidhuman
07-29-2004, 09:59 PM
You can not compare a video game to the movie. Its apples and oranges. And in the movie, we know that there was more ways in and out than 1.

stillakid
07-29-2004, 10:03 PM
Ok, lets take this nice and slow now so you'll hopefully understand it this time ;) . Yes, I'm comparing driving in a car to piloting a Millenium Falcon, BUT, only in terms of traveling a certain ruite and what one notices on the way there and back. Not speed :rolleyes: . That was stated rather clearly. Speed wasnt mentioned, was it?. See that last sentence there, the one that talks about going back where you came from being even the slightest bit easier than the first time? Yeah, focus on that. That was the point. Not on some kind of speed issue that you conjured up from who knows where. I never made an arguement comparing a car to a Corellian ship in terms of speed capabilities and such.

Well, first off, I'm just kind of ignoring that first bunch of words because it was all silly.

Then I have to admit that I stopped reading soon after that paragraph above because it got even sillier.

Why? Because you're the one that brought up the car. I'll say this nice an slow for you. ;) You suggested that Lando was having a nice Sunday drive whilst his spaceship was on autopilot hurtling through a ever-tightening superstructure thus enabling him to remember every little twist and turn so that he wouldn't have to really think all that hard on the way back out. But then again, by your logic, why wasn't the ship on autopilot then as well? :confused:

But as for the car analogy, you did bring it into the discussion therefore it's speed in comparison to the topic at hand is extraordinarily relevant. That's the whole point. Comparing and contrasting similar modes of transport and the difficulty levels inherent in each. TPM unequivocably states that only a special Midichlorian rich human can pilot a Podracer. Ok fine. So with that as a jumping off point, we can see the parameters involved with that mode of transportation and compare them to others throughout the Saga. And with crystal clear visual evidence illustrating the high rates of speed and extreme agility of many of the pilots in many different scenes (Han Solo, Luke, Leia, Bikerscouts, Jango Fett, Lando Calrissian), it is increasingly clear that based on the new rules set down by Episode I, that all of those mentioned in parenthesis must be latent Force users.

Jay86
07-29-2004, 10:08 PM
You can not compare a video game to the movie. Its apples and oranges. And in the movie, we know that there was more ways in and out than 1.
But that very video game is meant to be based on the movie, so why not make it as accurate as possible? And what did I compare exactly? All I remember comparing was a small portion of the movie as it was portrayed in the game, and after all, even I admitted I could be wrong. I compared its supposed accuracy, which even I admitted could be wrong. And "its apples and oranges?" Well, you watch both on a television screen. The game is completely based on the movies.
And how was there more than one way out "in the movie"? The movie was nothing more than a set with some props. Only one exit was used. In the fantasy of it all perhaps there was more than one way out, but we're not talking about how many ways out there were, we're talking about THE exit that was taken. But ok, you say that yet you cant compare apples and oranges yet we've all been sitting here arguing over fantasy/fictional modes of transportation and their comparison to our world, one in which they dont exist?????!!!!!?????

Kidhuman
07-29-2004, 10:23 PM
Lando: Split up and head back to the surface. See if you can get some of those fighters to follow you.

X-Wings and Falcon seperate into 2 different tunnels. I am sure it wasnt a U-turn exit in the middle of the death star

Jay86
07-29-2004, 10:27 PM
Well, first off, I'm just kind of ignoring that first bunch of words because it was all silly.

Then I have to admit that I stopped reading soon after that paragraph above because it got even sillier.
Says the one who brought up a topic comparing fantasy to the real world :crazed: :rolleyes:


Why? Because you're the one that brought up the car. I'll say this nice an slow for you. ;) You suggested that Lando was having a nice Sunday drive whilst his spaceship was on autopilot hurtling through a ever-tightening superstructure thus enabling him to remember every little twist and turn so that he wouldn't have to really think all that hard on the way back out. But then again, by your logic, why wasn't the ship on autopilot then as well? :confused:
I brought up the car. Correct. I suggested Lando was having a nice "sunday drive"? Nope.

"Was piloting the Falcon out of the second Death Star a difficult task? Yeah, I bet"

Wow, "sunday drive" huh? Uh....I think not. Last time I checked a "sunday drive" was quite an easy thing.



But as for the car analogy, you did bring it into the discussion therefore it's speed in comparison to the topic at hand is extraordinarily relevant. That's the whole point. Comparing and contrasting similar modes of transport and the difficulty levels inherent in each. TPM unequivocably states that only a special Midichlorian rich human can pilot a Podracer. Ok fine. So with that as a jumping off point, we can see the parameters involved with that mode of transportation and compare them to others throughout the Saga. And with crystal clear visual evidence illustrating the high rates of speed and extreme agility of many of the pilots in many different scenes (Han Solo, Luke, Leia, Bikerscouts, Jango Fett, Lando Calrissian), it is increasingly clear that based on the new rules set down by Episode I, that all of those mentioned in parenthesis must be latent Force users.
Well, it took that long for you to actually bring up the actual point of my post(s), the very point which I've attempted to bring you back to time and time again? Well, that took long enough. Glad to see you focusing on the main point, rather than pulling other things from nothing or whatever it was you were doing. Its not really important to me what you were doing though.

Han Solo - again, the Falcon has an autopilot. Autopilots, even in our REAL world, do most of the work. We arent told however, when this autopilot is enabled during the films. Did you see a steering wheel in the Falcon? No, though if you said yes I sure wouldnt be surprised.

Jango Fett - same thing applies here. Apparently in the Star Wars FICTIONAL universe, such craft are intelligent enough to be able to avoid obstacles even in space. That explains your "dodging the asteroid" question, does it not?

Speeder bikes - an autopilot feature obviously wouldnt fit in such a small vehicle. The Scout Troopers themselves couldnt pilot the bikes, why? Because they dont have the Force as their ally. Could Luke pilot a speeder bike? Probably, then again, as I already said - its basic SW knowledge that one needs to be in complete focus if they are to fully use the Force as their ally and use it to aid them in such a dangerous situation.

The difference here is all on the autopilot. If every NASCAR driver had an autopilot, would anyone want to watch? The fun is gone. Flying through space however, I'm sure you'd want an autopilot, it would help navigate through asteroid fields and dangerous situations of the sort.
Then again, if your whole point is that in order to pilot a fast craft then one must be "Force sensitive", then I suppose airplane pilots are "strong with the Force" too eh? Oh yeah, thats right, they have navigational coordinates and a computer to aid them in flying, much like the Falcon :eek: . Lookie there, theres another point I brought up. The ships fly with the aid of an autopilot much of the time, at least it appears to be that. If you honestly believe that Jango Fett is sitting in his Slave 1 cranking the steering wheel around and pulling up on it and doing whatever else he might do, then be my guest. :rolleyes:
Again, why is it difficult to pilot a pod? Because of the situation. Why is it difficult to pilot a speeder? Because of the terrain. Could Anakin have piloted a speeder bike? Well, we see him do it in Episode 2, he pilots a swoop, a similar craft. I already pointed out why Anakin could pilot the pod, he had the Force as his ally. Why couldnt Luke pilot the speeder? The Scouts. He did survive too, didnt he? The Scouts didnt. Is flying a speeder easier than a pod? Yeah, probably. Is it 100% completely easy? In the fictional sense of it all, of course not. Then again, its fiction.

Jay86
07-29-2004, 10:31 PM
Lando: Split up and head back to the surface. See if you can get some of those fighters to follow you.

X-Wings and Falcon seperate into 2 different tunnels. I am sure it wasnt a U-turn exit in the middle of the death star
Good point. However, it doesnt help prove if the direction the Falcon took as you said is correct. We didnt see Wedge's X-Wing exit, we saw Lando exit. We saw Wedge SPLIT away from the Falcon, but we didnt follow Wedge foot by foot out of the Death Star. We saw the Falcon exit.
And honestly, now you're just trying to argue over which direction the Falcon took. The original topic here wasnt what direction it took, it was the whole thing about "scenery" and such. And again, I've already stated, I very well could be wrong about the whole "direction the Falcon took" thing anyway. Thats not really important to me.

Kidhuman
07-29-2004, 10:43 PM
Well, first of all, there were 3 X-wings and a Falcon. 2 X-wings headed back to the surface, and Wedge went with Lando. So technically, Wedge exited with Lando.

Jay86
07-29-2004, 10:47 PM
Well, first of all, there were 3 X-wings and a Falcon. 2 X-wings headed back to the surface, and Wedge went with Lando. So technically, Wedge exited with Lando.
Yes ,technically he did. And yes, I was wrong about that. In all the constant thinking over speeder bikes and video games and college work any other topic I've been thinking over tonight, I completely forgot that fact. So applause to you, but then all I really need to do is change what I said to "we didnt see the other two X-Wings exit, we just saw them split off" instead. So there you go, thats that.

rbaumhauer
07-30-2004, 12:31 AM
I would like to congratulate all the PT fans for taking the bait so comprehensively :) The way the long-winded rationalizations have come flowing out of you is truly stunning!

Hint: when somebody has made it COMPLETELY CLEAR that they don't like the PT and starts a topic that calls into question some piece of ridiculous storytelling "logic" that Lucas is hoping nobody will think too hard about, your best defense is to say something like,"I thought it looked cool and I liked it." Giving yourselves brain hernias trying to explain how piloting a pod racer through the desert REALLY IS much harder than piloting a speederbike through a forest just makes the rest of us wonder how tenuous your grip on reality is..............

So, stillakid, are you at all surprised at how far the PT fans will go in trying to explain how the whole thing REALLY DOES make sense and they REALLY ARE great movies? 'Cuz frankly, this whole "discussion" has been mind-boggling.

Rick

stillakid
07-30-2004, 12:34 AM
Wow, "sunday drive" huh? Uh....I think not. Last time I checked a "sunday drive" was quite an easy thing.

Uh, yeah, that's pretty much the point. That's why I said that.



Well, it took that long for you to actually bring up the actual point of my post(s), the very point which I've attempted to bring you back to time and time again? Well, that took long enough. Glad to see you focusing on the main point, rather than pulling other things from nothing or whatever it was you were doing. Its not really important to me what you were doing though.
Wha! :sur: Who is meandering off the point, Mr. Autopilot? I've been here the whole time. Glad to see that you've decided to come back.


Han Solo - again, the Falcon has an autopilot. ...blah blah blah
So you're basing your entire defense on "autopilot"? Something that has absolutely no mention nor is implied onscreen? In that case, if those are the rules of the game, I submit that without a shadow of a doubt Bikerscouts are Force users. Why? Well, because it's written down. By your logic, that's all that's required to back up any claim. Mine is not onscreen, but it is written down and backed up entirely by circumstantial onscreen evidence. I win. :D

stillakid
07-30-2004, 12:37 AM
So, stillakid, are you at all surprised at how far the PT fans will go in trying to explain how the whole thing REALLY DOES make sense and they REALLY ARE great movies? 'Cuz frankly, this whole "discussion" has been mind-boggling.

Rick

Rick,

I expect nothing less from that clan and quite frankly would be disappointed if their performances weren't up to the usual high (low? :confused: ) standards we've come to expect. I look forward to many more entertaining exchanges as we see just how far they'll go.

Stillakid

jeddah
07-30-2004, 05:45 AM
Hello :)

This discussion seems to hinge on 2 assumptions;

1 - that Jedi speak the gospel/that Jedi do not make throwaway comments.

2 - that Midichlorian rich - and therefore probably jedi skil rich people - are relatively common.


Regarding point 1 - The OT establishes that Jedi often resort to riddles and enigmatic phrasing to get a point across. Obi Wan uses his from a certain point of view speech to Luke about his father's identity. Furthermore in the elevator on the way up to Padmé's chamber Anakin reminds Obi Wan that it was he who saved them from the pit etc. and Obi Wan subsequently chuckles avuncularly. I suspect Qui-Gon is also being avuncular in the prequel when he suggests that Anakin must have Force skills. (Also, he may be manipulating the conversation to find out Anakin's knowledge of his own abilities with a view to clarifying his own feelings about the child's identity. To be more cynical, he could even be guaging how this child could be used to get them off Tatooine. Unlikely, unexpressed and not explicit.) Personally, I think Qui-Gon made a comment borne out of encouragement and camaraderie for the boy more than anything else.

As far as point 2 goes - sure it may be true, and gaps in the script allow for it, but I don't think we're really meant to analyse it to such a depth that it affords Qui-Gons comment such gravity. It is implicit that talented Force users are meant to be rare, elite or privileged individuals. To have loads of bikerscouts equally so talented would contradict this.
I think Qui Gon's suggestion was a dramatic contrivance to illustrate Anakin's Force potential. Even if not, I don't think he was aware of future technology used by the Empire, Owen's speeder bike notwithstanding. And what would would he say in that instance; "You must be a talented Force user to race Pods and would probably be a gifted speeder biker"? :D

Comparing a PR to a speederbike in the context of how we see them perform in the movies is a bad comparison to make however; the PRs are more often in open desert, regardless of speed, and the bikers are in a dense forest. That is an inescapable fact. It is foolish to claim that bikers are under less pressure. I'd say it was clear they were under more pressure.

I think the discussion, however was about Force use: I don't really know whether Bikerscouts and PRs are both Force talented idividuals but on a balance of probabilities, I would suggest that Bikers are not.

jeddah
p.s this fence-sitting is kinda hurting my *** :D

Kidhuman
07-30-2004, 09:29 AM
Hello :)


Comparing a PR to a speederbike in the context of how we see them perform in the movies is a bad comparison to make however; the PRs are more often in open desert, regardless of speed, and the bikers are in a dense forest. That is an inescapable fact. It is foolish to claim that bikers are under less pressure. I'd say it was clear they were under more pressure.




Hi,


I actually think it is a good comparison. Only human ever to run a pod is Anakin. Even though they go faster, the terrain is more open, and yet, only a force using human can do this.

Now a speeder, which is more streamlined pretty darn quick and a closed terrain(Endor) would be harder to operate, why would it not take a lesser human to do this and not pods?

jeddah
07-30-2004, 10:01 AM
Hi KH,

I am confused...I think we are agreeing, aren't we? :ermm: Maybe I phrased that wrong. Or maybe, after my hi-refined-carb lunch my brain is addled :D but I have read your previous post a couple of times and seem to be reinforcing each other's points.

:nerv:

jeddah

Kidhuman
07-30-2004, 10:24 AM
I was saying why it is a good comparison, as to where you said it was a bad one. I think we are agreeing though. :D :beard:

jeddah
07-30-2004, 11:11 AM
Oh. Well then. :)

How cool; a paradox on our very own forums! :D

jeddah

Jay86
07-30-2004, 01:58 PM
So you're basing your entire defense on "autopilot"? Something that has absolutely no mention nor is implied onscreen? In that case, if those are the rules of the game, I submit that without a shadow of a doubt Bikerscouts are Force users. Why? Well, because it's written down. By your logic, that's all that's required to back up any claim. Mine is not onscreen, but it is written down and backed up entirely by circumstantial onscreen evidence. I win. :D
How cute :rolleyes: . Well Captain Common Sense, as I stated, did you see Han Solo steering the Falcon by means of a steering wheel? Nope. And quite frankly you can win this arguement for all I care :rolleyes: . Its childish and juvenile (much like most of your arguements by the way ;) ), therefore, I'm going to move on to better things, as I have better things to do than sit in front of my computer and argue with people over FICTIONAL things like how fast a speeder bike goes or whatever. You're trying to win an arguement, this whole thing started out as a discussion. I stated some things, and you're the one who made it an arguement. You can sit in front of your computer looking for arguements all you want, be my guest.

"I look forward to many more entertaining exchanges as we see just how far they'll go."

So, really, to interpret: "Maybe today I'll sit in front of my computer waiting for the prequel lovers to make another attempt at proving just how real fiction is!!!"
Well, again, you're the one who made this whole discussion turned arguement (?), and if you're just instigating people then wow, a lack of life do I sense in you? Perhaps. Discussions are discussions, juvenile arguements are another thing. Besides, you of all people should have been the first to take into consideration that before arguing over the capabilities displayed by the Falcon on film HOW exactly would that ever work in real life to begin with, much less the fictional universe of Star Wars? Funny how you seem to be such great friends with logic yet you jumped the gun to the point of asking questions about fictional vehicles and their users Force capabilities before asking the question "how would that even work? "Theres another mistake of Lucas's, not even considering how things would really work in outer space!" :rolleyes: The fact that the ships dont fly realistically should be enough to not even have to ask the kind of question you did. Its a science FICTION movie here, not one based on real life or a true story. Its common sense that a craft cant swerve and maneuver through space as easily as the Falcon. Therefore, your whole ridiculous arguement that Lando/Han/Jango must be a Force user(s) too is completely absurd. They arent Force users because they shouldnt be able to fly like that to begin with....then again, thats right, they werent really flying like that, it was all computers and fancy Hollywood stuff. Oh, and then theres that bit of info that we've all been forgetting: These movies are fictional. Not real. Again, funny how someone like yourself would flaunt your amazing logical skills all day long yet then when looking for amusement you look towards arguing fictional modes of transportation :confused:. The answer has been given to you - what you see is what you get. Why dont the Bike Scouts use Force powers? Because no one ever said they did. And you cant use fictional evidence in an attempt to back up some stupid theory like yours, because no one ever said the Bike Scouts didnt use the Force either. So no one is right and no one is wrong, really. Therefore, you're not right. But I'm not either. But uh oh, it'd be the end of the world for you to actually admit that you're wrong for once. Funny how people'll type huge paragraphs and you'll just toss of 99% of it and focus on the most meaningless things though. And how about that Wampa thing? What was that you said in that one post, that was a good point I made? Why thank you, I know it was. I was right, I won :D :rolleyes:

But like I said, want to win this one? Psh, be my guest :rolleyes: . I think its hilarious that someone would be so determined to win some kind of an online discussion/arguement. Yes, congratulations stillakid, you've won an ONLINE arguement over speeder bikes and fictional things!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Now thats something to be proud of!!!
You can pick your trophy up at IHOP along with those burnt pancakes you spoke of :rolleyes:
Now thats something to think over. The fact that you, the one who holds himself to such high esteem over having more common sense than any human should, would actually make the arguement that someone would bring you burnt pancakes......What were you thinking??!!???? You never even bothered to quote that or answer that, much the way things usually are. Quoting little snippits here and there but never really taking on the whole subject. :rolleyes:
Well, thats the case isnt it. You can take this whole thing and feel proud of yourself and gloat in all your online arguing glory :D . But when that high horse of yours decides to keel over and die, and you fall off, and everyone else is looking down on you, I just wonder if anyone will actually bother, much less WANT or even care, to lend you a hand to help you back up :confused: . (Psst, thats an analogy :))

stillakid
07-30-2004, 03:45 PM
. But uh oh, it'd be the end of the world for you to actually admit that you're wrong for once.


Did you say something? :rolleyes: But really, I admit I'm wrong all the time...when I am. But no one has yet proven this to be the case in this instance so I'll continue to discuss the actual issues while trying to keep it from veering off into autopilot. :D

Yeah, it's fiction, so ultimately it's all stupid. I've admitted that many times. It seems like you're the one taking this waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy too personally. Take a pill, relax, and find something else less stressful to do. :)

JediTricks
07-30-2004, 07:39 PM
and Obi Wan subsequently chuckles avuncularly. I suspect Qui-Gon is also being avuncular in the prequel when he suggests that Anakin must have Force skills.I couldn't find "avuncularly" in the dictionary, but it seems like that would be the proper adverbial modification of the adjective you later used. :D


To have loads of bikerscouts equally so talented would contradict this.That's the real point now, isn't it, that Lucas goofed in the prequels by suggesting that podracers were too difficult for humans yet had already made a SW film where a vehicle seemingly equally fast and dangerous was piloted by human Imperial troops; it's not really saying that Bikerscouts should be Force-users, but that the Ep 1 line was flawed on the writer's end. The wiggle room comes from how one defines the separation between the 2 piloting skillsets.

Personally, I believe this is a prequel failure, that Lucas was too desparate to shoehorn the explanation of how great a pilot Anakin was into Ep 1 (in reference to a line from the OT) and didn't stop to consider the ramifications of this prequel line even though it has direct impact on OT content.


I think Qui Gon's suggestion was a dramatic contrivance to illustrate Anakin's Force potential. Even if not, I don't think he was aware of future technology used by the Empire, Owen's speeder bike notwithstanding. As I said in the last paragraph, I believe Lucas included this exchange specifically to set up both the high-quality piloting skills AND the Force-use potential of the young boy. Then, only 1 film later, Lucas reintroduces speederbikes both with Owen's swoop and later in the movie when he has clonetroopers riding them in battle (again, here we have a situation that clearly has to be as difficult, if not moreso, as podracing, flying speederbikes around at top speed through heavy battle conditions - the excuse could be made that these troopers are elite modified clones equipped to do the job here though).



did you see Han Solo steering the Falcon by means of a steering wheel? Absolutely, Han has a steering yoke right on the main console in front of his seat.


Therefore, your whole ridiculous arguement that Lando/Han/Jango must be a Force user(s) too is completely absurd. They arent Force users because they shouldnt be able to fly like that to begin with.... I suggest that you are arguing Stillakid's ultimate point for him with this statement and might want to take a step back and plot out your own POV so as not to get twisted up in the heat of argument. Post it here if you like, let us know without responding to anybody else what your opinion on the piloting skills required for podracing and speederbike piloting and whatever else, and whether Lucas' comment about humans needing Force potential to pilot a pod has any bearing on all that.

Bosskman
07-30-2004, 08:24 PM
I still don't see the point of this "argument" either. Speeder bikes: produced by humans for humans. Pod Racers: produced by any creature capable of building one for any creature capable of racing one. As far as this fictional universe goes, Anakin is the only HUMAN capable of driving one. What's so freaking hard to accept about that. Hasn't anyone heard of the term "wiling suspension of disbelief?" I find it hard to believe that anybody here who, like me, obsesses about these movies which feature things like: deep space travel, alien beings and other creatures, THE FORCE, and countless other things that don't exist in the real world hasn't. This is basic high school english people. Get a hold of yourselves for pete's sake. If the fatbody says that humans need the force to drive a podracer, just freaking accept it. If you don't, make up your own damn stories. I have personally excluded the whole concept of midichlorians from MY Star Wars. If you guys don't like the prequels, forget about them.

JediTricks
07-30-2004, 09:18 PM
Speeder bikes: produced by humans for humans. Pod Racers: produced by any creature capable of building one for any creature capable of racing one. As far as this fictional universe goes, Anakin is the only HUMAN capable of driving one. What's so freaking hard to accept about that.Bosskman, Anakin built his podracer for himself, so I think your argument has a hole there because by your argument, any human COULD have built themselves a podracer before Anakin did. The film suggests that this isn't the case, that Anakin is the only human who can pilot one of these pods, it says nothing about being the only human who can BUILD one.

I did suspend disbelief already when Obi-Wan said Anakin was a fantastic pilot, so now I have that to build on and Lucas gives us this podracing thing but it doesn't quite jive with what was also shown previously about speederbikes, it's inconsistant within my suspension of disbelief.


I have personally excluded the whole concept of midichlorians from MY Star Wars.So have I, but they are relatively minor compared to what appears to be a slightly more substantial oversight within the framework of vehicle-piloting and/or Anakin's makeup within the OT and PT because there was already a consistant foundation beforehand. That's what bothers me, we're supposed to accept this podracer thing to build Anakin up, but it doesn't really hold fast to what comes before (and after) which has some more foundation to it. When Lucas' characters say that Anakin was a great pilot, then provides this podrace as proof to back that claim up, I'd like it to show a reasonable claim rather than an inconsistent one (if Lucas hadn't chopped up the end battle to TPM, I might have accepted Ani's work there, but Lucas took out every instance where Ani does something rather than falls into lucky circumstances).

stillakid
07-30-2004, 09:23 PM
I have personally excluded the whole concept of midichlorians from MY Star Wars. If you guys don't like the prequels, forget about them.

Interesting point of view coming from someone of your particular belief system. Ignore what you don't like, rationalize the rest. Where's that thread about integrity? :sur:

Anyway, it certainly is within my grasp to ignore the Prequels and/or file them under Expanded Universe where all the in-continuotis (sp?) saga material goes. But this specific exercise in futility chooses to find a way to bridge the seemingly uncrossable gap that currently exists between the new and the old.

Bosskman
07-31-2004, 07:20 AM
Once again, stillakid's "logic" at work. STAR WARS IS NOT REAL. Anyone CAN pick and choose from it what they want. It's like a kid thinking his cardboard shoebox millenium falcon is better than the "real" one, so he doesn't get the "real" one. You know, for someone who's always preaching about being "open minded" all the time, this guy can't even attempt to see the point of view of others. Worse than that, HE takes what HE wants from the typed text of others, and suits it to fit HIS view of what he thinks their arguments are. Hey stillakid, what's the definition of hyppocrite in YOUR version of the english language? That's all I gotta say about that.

JT, I see what you mean about anakin building the podracer. He is after all, a human. What I was trying to show was that speeder bikes were designed for use by humans and podracers were designed for use by anything crazy enough to pilot one. That's all. I never meant for it to sound like the designers and pilots of the podracers were necessarily of the same species, nor did I mean that the design of one was more complex than the average human could comprehend. I have as much trouble as you do I think with TPM.

stillakid
07-31-2004, 09:27 AM
You know, for someone who's always preaching about being "open minded" all the time, this guy can't even attempt to see the point of view of others. Worse than that, HE takes what HE wants from the typed text of others, and suits it to fit HIS view of what he thinks their arguments are.
You'd better be prepared to back that assertion up...

But let's examine what you say.

You know, for someone who's always preaching about being "open minded" all the time... I have suggested in the past that people should be open-minded, but it certainly isn't "all the time."

this guy can't even attempt to see the point of view of others. ...Really? When exactly was it when you crawled into my brain? I do attempt to see the point of view of others all the time. It just so happens that I argue against said points of view when they don't make sense. I'll suggest that the statement you're trying to make here is in response to that and not so much my refusal to "attempt to see the point of view of others."

Worse than that, HE takes what HE wants from the typed text of others, and suits it to fit HIS view of what he thinks their arguments are.... Now you're suggesting that I deliberately manipulate and spin other people's words so that their own words mean what I want them to mean? Huh? :confused: Look, if somebody types something and doesn't adequately convey what they mean, that's not my fault. How often have we all see the phrase "well, what I meant to say was..." in these forums? All I can do, all any of us can do, is to try to decipher a person's meaning to the best of our ability if their own skills of expression are lacking. But in terms of outright manipulation, that's a pretty big indictment and I'd ask you for proof and if (when) you can't produce it, I'll expect an apology... That's two you owe me, Junior. ;)

stillakid
07-31-2004, 09:31 AM
Once again, stillakid's "logic" at work. STAR WARS IS NOT REAL. Anyone CAN pick and choose from it what they want.

But as to the topic at hand, if you had bothered to read the rest of my post, it said that while what you say is true, the point here is to figure out a way to connect the two trilogies together...not to find a way to divide them or chop them into user-friendly bite sized pieces. I mean, if I ignored everything I didn't like in TPM, the movie would be about 12 minutes long.

JediTricks
08-01-2004, 09:01 PM
JT, I see what you mean about anakin building the podracer. He is after all, a human. What I was trying to show was that speeder bikes were designed for use by humans and podracers were designed for use by anything crazy enough to pilot one. That's all. I never meant for it to sound like the designers and pilots of the podracers were necessarily of the same species, nor did I mean that the design of one was more complex than the average human could comprehend. I have as much trouble as you do I think with TPM.Oh, ok, I didn't think it came off that way, which is why I misunderstood you. BTW, if you had argued that "podracING" was designed for crazy aliens instead "podracERS", I think it might have been a stronger argument (on text, I still think the TPM scene as it played out on-screen wouldn't have held to that). I don't think saying that "podracers were designed for use by anything crazy enough to pilot one" excludes humans though, as we've all seen humans do crazy stuff. ;)



the point here is to figure out a way to connect the two trilogies together...not to find a way to divide them or chop them into user-friendly bite sized pieces. I mean, if I ignored everything I didn't like in TPM, the movie would be about 12 minutes long. Honestly, I missed that intention too.


You guys need to stop with the personal attacks. Argue the merits of the discussion, not the personalities making the claims.

stillakid
08-01-2004, 11:12 PM
Honestly, I missed that intention too.

But isn't that the point of all of these discussions? Unfortunately (and I mean that) all too often, finding parity between the trilogies is simply impossible as the incongruities are far too great. I was simply taking a page from the Lucas-ites in trying to bridge the Prequel logic/new continuity/new rulebook with what is already in existence. And for that, I am personally attacked for using their own logic and tactics. Go figure. :ermm:

Bacta Beast
08-01-2004, 11:56 PM
Actually Kid, I think the reason you may have felt that you were being attacked is because this whole topic just started out as a joke, and then, starting with your first post it turned into this serious discussion. Everyone was just having fun with it and joking, and then it seemd like you came along with a bit of an, "I'm the final authority" attitude. Maybe you didn't mean it that way but it looked like it (in print anyway).

It just comes down to this, obviously Lucas didn't intend for all of the alien pod racers, and all the Imperial biker scouts to be "force-users". We know for sure that Luke, Leia, and Anakin were though. And bridging the movies isn't that hard in this topic. It's "Lucasfilm" fact that pods were capable of higher speeds than the speeder bikes. So someone piloting a speeder wouldn't have to have the same abilities as someone controlling a pod.
Also think of the design of the vehicles... It's has to be more demanding to pilot a craft with two huge engines out in front of you, not even attached to your craft, than a vehicle with a much smaller engine, located on the vehicle itself.
We know that pods were used on a continual bases at their highest speeds, we do not know, however, that the Imperial troops used their bikes at full speed capacity, in the type of terrain typical of Endor's moon. So we can't say definitively that they needed Jedi-like reflexes to perform their patrol duties everyday. Add to that the fact that they didn't do terribly well at the higher speeds when dealing with Luke and Leia.
The alien pod-racers can get a pass as none force users simply because they are just that, aliens. Lucas can say they have different reflexes than humans, he came up with them! Oh, and not all of the other pod racers did to well either, remember.
I'm just saying I don't think this is one of the places where Lucas canon contradicts itself. It's difficult if not impossible to establish that Jedi reflexes are necessary to fly a speeder. Whereas a larger faster vehicle, like the pods,
may just need that extra edge. Their design (the pods) is awkward by humaniod standards, and once again they are larger, faster, and pushed to their capacity on a regular basis.
Just think about it, and try not to respond just to keep an argument going. :Ponder:

Bacta Beast
08-01-2004, 11:58 PM
Sweet!!! 10 more posts and I get my own avatar!!!

stillakid
08-02-2004, 02:40 AM
Actually Kid, I think the reason you may have felt that you were being attacked is because this whole topic just started out as a joke, and then, starting with your first post it turned into this serious discussion.

Really? That's a revelation to me, because my first post was the first post of the thread. :sur: I didn't realize that I had started this out as a joke. :rolleyes:

Seriously, check it out here:

http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showpost.php?p=338193&postcount=1




Everyone was just having fun with it and joking, and then it seemd like you came along with a bit of an, "I'm the final authority" attitude. Maybe you didn't mean it that way but it looked like it (in print anyway).

I only came along with a "final authority attitude" when no logic came along to contradict the question posed in the thread title.


It just comes down to this, obviously Lucas didn't intend for all of the alien pod racers, and all the Imperial biker scouts to be "force-users". We know for sure that Luke, Leia, and Anakin were though. And bridging the movies isn't that hard in this topic. It's "Lucasfilm" fact that pods were capable of higher speeds than the speeder bikes. So someone piloting a speeder wouldn't have to have the same abilities as someone controlling a pod.
Also think of the design of the vehicles... It's has to be more demanding to pilot a craft with two huge engines out in front of you, not even attached to your craft, than even vehicle with a much smaller engine, located on the vehicle itself.


Yet you too choose to ignore the environment that I mentioned the Speederbikes being used in. Had we only seen the speederbikes used in a non-threatening environment, say, a large flat desert landscape for instance, then maybe you'd have a valid point. But we see these vehicles being used in a very treacherous environment which, autopilot withstanding :rolleyes: , would very much require either very high levels of skill or some kind of parallel Force ability as described by Episode I.



We know that pods were used on a continual bases at their highest speeds, we do not know, however, that the Imperial troops used their bikes at full speed capacity, in the type of terrain typical of Endor's moon. So we can't say definitively that they needed Jedi-like reflexes to perform their patrol duties everyday. Add to that the fact that they didn't do terribly well at the higher speeds when dealing with Luke and Leia.
I don't know about that. They held their own pretty well, and if I remember correctly, Leia's opponent managed to knock her off first and only crashed because he was "celebrating" and forgot to look where he was going. Luke's opponent also knocked Luke off and only died after Luke cut his "rudder" off. So your argument is faulty from the start.

You claim that we don't know how fast the Speederbikes were going. I'll throw the same argument back at you regarding the Podracers. All we can say for certain regarding both machines is that they were moving very quickly. One across empty desert. The other through a dense forest. So you tell me which one you'd rather drive if you wanted to live to the end of the day then tell me that the Speederbike guys weren't challenged at all. :rolleyes:


The alien pod-racers can get a pass as none force users simply because they are just that, aliens. Lucas can say they have different reflexes than humans, he came up with them! Oh, and not all of the other pod racers did to well either, remember.
Funny, those aliens did as well as Luke and Leia on their Speederbikes. Or did you choose to forget that?



I'm just saying I don't think this is one of the places where Lucas canon contradicts itself. It's difficult if not impossible to establish that Jedi reflexes are necessary to fly a speeder. Whereas a larger faster vehicle, like the pods, may just need that extra edge. Their design (the pods) is awkward by humaniod standards,
Huh? "Humanoid standards"? What's that exactly? :confused: You're basing a "non-contradiction" argument on something you've labeled as "humanoid standards." I think we all deserve a definition of what that is. Thanks! :)



Just think about it, and try not to respond just to keep an argument going. :Ponder:
Yeah, I did and your "arguments" are as faulty as the rest so far. You didn't get a good start (your first assertion of your post) and it didn't get much better after that. Nice try though. :ermm:

jeddah
08-02-2004, 05:11 AM
I couldn't find "avuncularly" in the dictionary, but it seems like that would be the proper adverbial modification of the adjective you later used. :D

That's the real point now, isn't it, that Lucas goofed in the prequels by suggesting that podracers were too difficult for humans yet had already made a SW film where a vehicle seemingly equally fast and dangerous was piloted by human Imperial troops; it's not really saying that Bikerscouts should be Force-users, but that the Ep 1 line was flawed on the writer's end. The wiggle room comes from how one defines the separation between the 2 piloting skillsets.

Personally, I believe this is a prequel failure, that Lucas was too desparate to shoehorn the explanation of how great a pilot Anakin was into Ep 1 (in reference to a line from the OT) and didn't stop to consider the ramifications of this prequel line even though it has direct impact on OT content.

As I said in the last paragraph, I believe Lucas included this exchange specifically to set up both the high-quality piloting skills AND the Force-use potential of the young boy. Then, only 1 film later, Lucas reintroduces speederbikes both with Owen's swoop and later in the movie when he has clonetroopers riding them in battle (again, here we have a situation that clearly has to be as difficult, if not moreso, as podracing, flying speederbikes around at top speed through heavy battle conditions - the excuse could be made that these troopers are elite modified clones equipped to do the job here though).

JT, you've known me long enough to know that my mind is a foundry for new and corrupted words :D . With reference to the discussion, however, I think we are more or less on the same page. I know there is a disparity between the bikes and pods, but where others see it as a scriptwriting flaw, I see it as a comment on Qui-Gon.

Re the other comments in this thread about taking what you want from the film, I do this too. If I had my way the whole 2-something hours would be about Queen Amidala and Theed and the Senate scene. Renaissance heaven, daaaahling! :D

jeddah

stillakid
08-02-2004, 11:15 AM
JT, you've known me long enough to know that my mind is a foundry for new and corrupted words :D .

You and Don King trapped in a room would be a good time! :D

jeddah
08-02-2004, 12:21 PM
You and Don King trapped in a room would be a good time! :D

:D Don't forget Dubya, either, we could have a verbiage á trois :crazed:

jeddah

JediTricks
08-02-2004, 09:19 PM
I know there is a disparity between the bikes and pods, but where others see it as a scriptwriting flaw, I see it as a comment on Qui-Gon. I would be more open to your take, that Qui-Gon was coddling the boy, but the script and tone of the film seem to back the little bastage's claims up.

CropDuster
08-04-2004, 03:41 PM
Whoa, stilla. I didn't think I was killing any messenger. In fact, I thought that I was agreeing with you. I think that you are correct on drawing the conclusion that you did about the biker scouts' force powers when you use the prequels to form the conclusion, however I said that you were using sarcasm because I do not buy into the contradictory pseudo-logic that enshrouds GL's prequel mess. I just did not see how a podracer was so humanly impossible to pilot. I was just tossing in my idea regarding what I held to be a functional problem with the particular PT scenario that you brought to the forum's attention. That's all. I think JT has the same general problem with the movie as myself judging from his prior posts.

stillakid
08-04-2004, 03:54 PM
I just did not see how a podracer was so humanly impossible to pilot.

Ahh, I see. I was approaching the problem from the other side, assuming that the Prequel assertion was in fact...well, fact. Believe me, I'd rather just forget that the Prequel thing ever existed, but after so many posts of illustrating how "wrong" the Prequels have been, I decided to take the Prequel-Defenders stance and apply the Prequel logic to the OT films. So assuming that the rules as described by the Prequels are the new continuity, I think that it's fair to examine the OT to see what is affected and how. The Podracer/Speederbike question falls into that category very nicely. But I never did intend any sarcasm. :)